We know the value of comments. A great deal of programmer time, not to mention hardware and networking support, has been committed since I joined the company to make comments work better. It's been a project in itself just to make the system handle the load of supporting this forum.
Since the last year or so, we wrote the
Journal code [slashcode.com]
to give users more of a voice of their own. It's ironic that people are using that very platform, which represents a large investment in person-hours, to argue that we don't care about reader feedback.
We know the value of comments. A great deal of programmer time, not to mention hardware and networking support, has been committed since I joined the company to make comments work better.
However, according to Malda, half of the readers don't care. Why bother, if so many don't even notice? Save the bandwidth and programmer time! Not to put too fine a point on it, without the comment posters, Slashdot is a "Hot Links" with bad HTML and worse grammar and spelling.
I believe I adequately explained the reasoning behind a temporary blackout, and I stated unequivocably that I love Slasdot. Stow your bleating self-righteousness. I suppose you'd find it ironic that Thomas Jefferson's First Amendment was used to criticize him in the colonial papers. That's not irony--it's the whole point of the damn thing.
Of course, this could be entirely moot. Perhaps nobody will participate. If that is the case, you can consider that most commenters believe that they are appreciated, and that I am a complete nut.
I'm saying you should look at actions, not just (out of context) words.
Words mean things. Malda's words mean things (even if they're spelled poorly). He takes a statistic to mean something--half of the readers don't care about comments. His love of figures and statistics blinds him to the compexity of a community and the value of those community members. He thinks he knows something, when he does not. I would like to show him the truth.
I think the biggest complaint most people like this has is in the concept of subscriptions.
Taco has stated that the smallest percentage of slashdot users are the ones that reload constantly, comment a ton, and submit a lot of articles. These are the people that will require the most money to subscribe.
The problem is that these are the people that make slashdot a good community. These aren't trolls or crapflooders, but the people that generate the daily news, and good comments. Why should they be penalized the most?
Please note, that I'm not complaining, here. I'm just attempting to site the problem that some people have (including rho... I think).
I also hate it when stats are used. We all know there's a big +/- factor in there. IE - A ton of those "front page only views" are crapflooders trying to get FP for the next article.
Just my thoughts/opinions.
BTW - thanks for being rational and pleasant in your replies. I've seen other authors just get rude in their comments, but this is a mature thread, and I thank you for it.
I have defended subscriptions in the past [slashdot.org] and I actually subscribed this week (a whole $10, hey big spender); I'm actually okay with the whole subscription thing. I'm still pissed about the 500 moderators getting $rtbl'd for modding up the Post of Doom, but I am enough of a fan to kick in the bux anyway.
I was concerned about the problem of the hardcore fan burning 100s of points a day (trying to get fp?) but the enhancement, live today, of a daily limit on ads suppressed (default=10) makes the risk of inflated costs not so high.
(All you can eat would still be better.. but I can see how this is difficult to implement given shared accounts and so on.)
Try being one of the moderators. I still load as many pages as I did before, but no way in hell will I subscribe and help Taco run slashdot.
He said to me, "Fuck you." I've been reading Slashdot since the beginning. I've purchased tshirts. I've met him IRL. If he wants his little club he can do it without me. I am also trying to find a way to block ads just from slashdot and no other sites -- any ideas?
I come to slashdot for the community, and the comments. Let Taco give me my mod privledges back and apologize for doing it and I may rethink my stance. But until then I view Taco as an evil that slashdot doesn't need..
I support the slashdot blackout -- I think Taco needs to see that a large percentage of his viewers do care about the community. A community he is doing as much as he can to destroy.
OK, it is clear that you have something against CmdrTaco. That's your right. However, I will not support T(H)GSB for this reason. I like Slashdot and in most cases I agree with what CmdrTaco is doing. But I will support T(H)GSB anyway, because I think that it is nice from time to time to help everybody to re-evaluate the importance of comments in a site like Slashdot.
I think of it as an attention catcher and as a way to improve Slashdot in the long term, not as a protest against those who run this site.
I have a problem with CmdrTaco because of his actions to the moderators and posters of the Troll Investigation thread. Slashdot is supposed to be a community board, and having editors mod posts down in that thread should not have happened. It should have been up to the moderators.
Also, I moderated up a post that raised valid points, was well thought out and concise -- now I have the $rtbl flag. CmdrTaco told me in his actions to fuck off. I do like Slashdot. I like the majority of the community here. However, I don't like the fact that CmdrTaco has no clue how to run a community -- he wants it to be self sufficient, but if it disparages him he abuses his power. I'm not protesting against CmdrTaco by participating in T(H)GSB, I'm protesting against CmdrTaco by not subscribing and blocking ads.
I'd be more than happy to subscribe after he apologizes to me -- until then I don't care. I don't hold grudges, I just want to be treated fairly by trying to contribute to the community and make it a better place.
I have a problem with CmdrTaco because of his actions to the moderators and posters of the Troll Investigation thread.
This may seem overly simplistic, but if you don't like slashdot, go somewhere else. Unless you're subscribing, you're not paying for the service. If you're not paying for it, exactly what do you think you're owed?
Either use the site or don't use the site. Vote with your pageviews.
This may seem overly simplistic, but if you don't like slashdot, go somewhere else.
I said nothing about disliking Slashdot. I dislike CmdrTaco (and a few other editors, but they do not make Slashdot).
Unless you're subscribing, you're not paying for the service. Wrong, I pay with my time. Slashdot is a community site, it has a message board with threads to respond to geek events. The editors role is to choose what stories get posted, not to make sure Slashdot users post positive comments and nailing those who disagree with their stance and/or the communities sheep mentality.
If you're not paying for it, exactly what do you think you're owed?
Again, I am paying for it. I add value (questionable as to positive or negative) to slashdot with every comment I post. And, I'm not owed anything from Slashdot. The issue I have with CmdrTaco and the other editors is a personal one. They personally attacked me, yes they do run the site but I contribute a lot to this site. I like the community, and dislike some of the editors. So be it. Don't confuse Slashdot with CmdrTaco/michael/jamie -- they aren't the same.
You volunteer your time. Twist it into whatever little blender you wish, it still doesn't come out that you're paying for it. If you believe you're adding value and you don't like the way those who own the site are treating you, then go away. Refuse your "added value".
The deal is this. You're allowed to have your opinion. You're allowed to express it. That doesn't mean that anyone else has to like your opinion. And if Rob/Jamie/et al attacked you, then they probably didn't like what you had to say. They didn't take away your acocunt. They didn't block you from posting your diatribes. They just modded a few of your posts down. If you're allowed to have an opinion, so are they. And if you don't like the way they express their opinion, if you don't like the fact that they own the site and can do with it whatever the hell they want, then stop "adding value". Stop contributing. Just go away.
That's really the only rational recourse that you have.
I'd be more than happy to subscribe after he apologizes to me -- until then I don't care. I don't hold grudges, I just want to be treated fairly by trying to contribute to the community and make it a better place.
All I feel "safe" in saying is... I notice how many of your comments on this thread are being voted up. =) From an intellectual standpoint, paying someone to reject my news articles (that later get accepted when submitted by others - not that I'm bitter, mind you) and read a bunch of trolls that I hardly ever get to moderate away from doesn't seem like a great deal.
As an aside: you know, personal proxy servers are very easy to use these days. I would recommend Proxomitron (for Windows) as an easy and free package.
p.s. (OT) sucks about the car thing. you should take your story to the weekly papers here (I'm also in PDX). They'll hate the publicity and try to buy you off, hopefully. However, you do have to realize you were really, really dumb.
You volunteer your time. Twist it into whatever little blender you wish, it still doesn't come out that you're paying for it. If you believe you're adding value and you don't like the way those who own the site are treating you, then go away. Refuse your "added value".
Right, I volunteer. I spend my time on Slashdot being part of a community. There is no twisting logic here, and the owners of the site have nothing to do with the community (unfortunately, if the authors actually cared about the community life would be much different).
As for their attacks against me, they did not dislike what I said because I didn't say anything. I moderated. A privledge setup for the entire community who has a decent track record. They didn't mod my posts down, in fact Jamie has modded a few of my posts up. They are allowed to have an opinion, and I am entitled to disagree or agree. However, they are not allowed to think that they can set the $rtbl flag on a long standing user of the site for no good reason. They killed about 500 moderators for that thread -- that is abusing the power of a community based system when they are not an active part of the community.
I have a lot of rational recourses actually - I can stay here and post about getting the $rtbl flag set on my account for no decent reason and get some supporters and hopefully Rob will decide that Slashdot is in fact a community and he should either participate or hand the project over to someone who cares. Or, I can still post and not mod. Which is what I do now, I'm fine with it -- but I still would appreciate an apology from Rob for doing it to me. Dont' worry -- I'm not holding my breath.
Thanks -- I'm not a troll, and I like to think that I do contribute positively to slashdot. I do like Slashdot because there are a lot of great people to get into debates about random things and a significant percentage are great people to talk to.
The reason why I would be interested in paying Slashdot for a subscription fee is to keep the community going. I really don't care about moderating, I rarely do it anyway only if I see something that is actually well thought out or damned hilarious. The fact it was taken away from me is irritating. I'm trying to help the community, hopefully it will work out ok.
RE: your p.s. Waiting to see their next action in the legal battle before going forward with more info. Another 30 days of silence and I think I can take it that they are backing down -- then I go to the media and such. However I am thinking of spending a sunday in a business suit picketing with a sign "Carr Chevrolet Lied to Me." -- And yes, I do realize I was really really dumb. My mother never lets me forget that;)
Also, I moderated up a post that raised valid points, was well thought out and concise -- now I have the $rtbl flag.
I was $rtbled too.
What really sucks is that they didn't even have the courtesy to send me a notice that it happened -- i just realized one day that i wasn't asked to metamod anymore.
So i asked Taco, and he ignored me. Same for Jamie and Hemos.
Finally i found Taco on IRC, and he said that they don't keep logs back that far of what the actual infraction was. All he knew was that i "moderated up a troll"
I never moderated up an actual troll, so i wanted to see what the post was. But like i said, by the time i actually found out that i had been rtbled, the logs had been destroyed so there was no way to defend myself.
I'm a good user. My karma's been at 50 for years. I never troll. I've been around Slashdot for a long time. But Taco decided that he didn't like the way i moderate, and so with no warning or even notice, he banned me from ever moderating or metamodding again.
Exactly my issue. Hell, you could have mod'd up seth's post in the PoD and still got $rtbl'd.
Fuck that. Rob, kiss my royal white irish ass. At least I get the piece of mind that as far as cash flow goes, I'm a liability instead of an assett. Too bad I'm still adding onto this site. I posted in response to Jamie, I will be more than surprised if he responds back to me.
I know it's not necessarily my place to step into this discussion, but I think the point of this thread is being missed somewhat.
It seems that this thread started out about the expression of opinion that the commenters aren't what make Slashdot so popular and aren't an important part of this community.
Xerithane has a few issues with some of the editors on a personal level, but also believes (as to others) that editors' primary job is to select which news items are most appropriate for the FP and the community -- not to use their superuser priveldges to trounce users' conflicting opinions.
I happen to think that and editor as a moderator is a conflict of interest of sorts. Editors are certainly allowed to have their own opinions, in a newspaper the Ed/Op section is usually used for this. In a community like Slashdot, the editors can simply make posts like every other user and argue/discuss with other community members about the validity of their points or what not.
I also agree that it's their web site (or at least, it's OSDN's web site) and they're granted the freedom to do pretty much whatever they choose.
At the same time, it's politically and commercially unwise to estrange your users/community/constituants. Without anyone visiting and posting to this site (or submitting news articles) it becomes pretty useless and has no reason to stay.
Therefore, if for no other reason, it's good to have this blackout to remind the owners that it is the people that make Slashdot, not just the stories; and to get a feel for the number of posters who make their difference known if they are missing for a week and it is noticable.
At the very least it's interesting to see what (if any) effect this has on 'the statistics'. It may very well turn out to have no effect because for all the bitching and moaning that goes on, it's just talk.
Cheers! I don't get paid for my time, I get time for my pay
recognizing value (Score:3, Interesting)
Since the last year or so, we wrote the Journal code [slashcode.com] to give users more of a voice of their own. It's ironic that people are using that very platform, which represents a large investment in person-hours, to argue that we don't care about reader feedback.
Re:recognizing value (Score:2)
We know the value of comments. A great deal of programmer time, not to mention hardware and networking support, has been committed since I joined the company to make comments work better.
However, according to Malda, half of the readers don't care. Why bother, if so many don't even notice? Save the bandwidth and programmer time! Not to put too fine a point on it, without the comment posters, Slashdot is a "Hot Links" with bad HTML and worse grammar and spelling.
I believe I adequately explained the reasoning behind a temporary blackout, and I stated unequivocably that I love Slasdot. Stow your bleating self-righteousness. I suppose you'd find it ironic that Thomas Jefferson's First Amendment was used to criticize him in the colonial papers. That's not irony--it's the whole point of the damn thing.
Re:recognizing value (Score:1)
I think the obvious answer is: because we feel it's important, it's what makes Slashdot what it is.
I'm saying you should look at actions, not just (out of context) words.
Re:recognizing value (Score:2)
Consider it, then, a good reminder.
Of course, this could be entirely moot. Perhaps nobody will participate. If that is the case, you can consider that most commenters believe that they are appreciated, and that I am a complete nut.
I'm saying you should look at actions, not just (out of context) words.
Words mean things. Malda's words mean things (even if they're spelled poorly). He takes a statistic to mean something--half of the readers don't care about comments. His love of figures and statistics blinds him to the compexity of a community and the value of those community members. He thinks he knows something, when he does not. I would like to show him the truth.
So when did you become the Slashdot ombudsman?
Re:recognizing value (Score:1)
Quoth CmdrTaco:
"Again, I'm talking value in purely economic sense ;)"
http://www.slashnet.org/forums/Slashdot_03-06-2002 .html [slashnet.org]
Re:recognizing value (Score:1)
Taco has stated that the smallest percentage of slashdot users are the ones that reload constantly, comment a ton, and submit a lot of articles. These are the people that will require the most money to subscribe.
The problem is that these are the people that make slashdot a good community. These aren't trolls or crapflooders, but the people that generate the daily news, and good comments. Why should they be penalized the most?
Please note, that I'm not complaining, here. I'm just attempting to site the problem that some people have (including rho... I think).
I also hate it when stats are used. We all know there's a big +/- factor in there. IE - A ton of those "front page only views" are crapflooders trying to get FP for the next article.
Just my thoughts/opinions.
BTW - thanks for being rational and pleasant in your replies. I've seen other authors just get rude in their comments, but this is a mature thread, and I thank you for it.
Re:recognizing value (Score:2)
I was concerned about the problem of the hardcore fan burning 100s of points a day (trying to get fp?) but the enhancement, live today, of a daily limit on ads suppressed (default=10) makes the risk of inflated costs not so high.
(All you can eat would still be better .. but I can see how this is difficult to implement given shared accounts and so on.)
Re:recognizing value (Score:2, Flamebait)
He said to me, "Fuck you." I've been reading Slashdot since the beginning. I've purchased tshirts. I've met him IRL. If he wants his little club he can do it without me. I am also trying to find a way to block ads just from slashdot and no other sites -- any ideas?
I come to slashdot for the community, and the comments. Let Taco give me my mod privledges back and apologize for doing it and I may rethink my stance. But until then I view Taco as an evil that slashdot doesn't need..
I support the slashdot blackout -- I think Taco needs to see that a large percentage of his viewers do care about the community. A community he is doing as much as he can to destroy.
Re:recognizing value (Score:2)
OK, it is clear that you have something against CmdrTaco. That's your right. However, I will not support T(H)GSB for this reason. I like Slashdot and in most cases I agree with what CmdrTaco is doing. But I will support T(H)GSB anyway, because I think that it is nice from time to time to help everybody to re-evaluate the importance of comments in a site like Slashdot.
I think of it as an attention catcher and as a way to improve Slashdot in the long term, not as a protest against those who run this site.
Re:recognizing value (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, I moderated up a post that raised valid points, was well thought out and concise -- now I have the $rtbl flag. CmdrTaco told me in his actions to fuck off. I do like Slashdot. I like the majority of the community here. However, I don't like the fact that CmdrTaco has no clue how to run a community -- he wants it to be self sufficient, but if it disparages him he abuses his power. I'm not protesting against CmdrTaco by participating in T(H)GSB, I'm protesting against CmdrTaco by not subscribing and blocking ads.
I'd be more than happy to subscribe after he apologizes to me -- until then I don't care. I don't hold grudges, I just want to be treated fairly by trying to contribute to the community and make it a better place.
Re:recognizing value (Score:2)
This may seem overly simplistic, but if you don't like slashdot, go somewhere else. Unless you're subscribing, you're not paying for the service. If you're not paying for it, exactly what do you think you're owed?
Either use the site or don't use the site. Vote with your pageviews.
Re:recognizing value (Score:2)
I said nothing about disliking Slashdot. I dislike CmdrTaco (and a few other editors, but they do not make Slashdot).
Unless you're subscribing, you're not paying for the service.
Wrong, I pay with my time. Slashdot is a community site, it has a message board with threads to respond to geek events. The editors role is to choose what stories get posted, not to make sure Slashdot users post positive comments and nailing those who disagree with their stance and/or the communities sheep mentality.
If you're not paying for it, exactly what do you think you're owed?
Again, I am paying for it. I add value (questionable as to positive or negative) to slashdot with every comment I post. And, I'm not owed anything from Slashdot. The issue I have with CmdrTaco and the other editors is a personal one. They personally attacked me, yes they do run the site but I contribute a lot to this site. I like the community, and dislike some of the editors. So be it. Don't confuse Slashdot with CmdrTaco/michael/jamie -- they aren't the same.
Re:recognizing value (Score:2)
You volunteer your time. Twist it into whatever little blender you wish, it still doesn't come out that you're paying for it. If you believe you're adding value and you don't like the way those who own the site are treating you, then go away. Refuse your "added value".
The deal is this. You're allowed to have your opinion. You're allowed to express it. That doesn't mean that anyone else has to like your opinion. And if Rob/Jamie/et al attacked you, then they probably didn't like what you had to say. They didn't take away your acocunt. They didn't block you from posting your diatribes. They just modded a few of your posts down. If you're allowed to have an opinion, so are they. And if you don't like the way they express their opinion, if you don't like the fact that they own the site and can do with it whatever the hell they want, then stop "adding value". Stop contributing. Just go away.
That's really the only rational recourse that you have.
Re:recognizing value (Score:1)
All I feel "safe" in saying is... I notice how many of your comments on this thread are being voted up. =) From an intellectual standpoint, paying someone to reject my news articles (that later get accepted when submitted by others - not that I'm bitter, mind you) and read a bunch of trolls that I hardly ever get to moderate away from doesn't seem like a great deal.
As an aside: you know, personal proxy servers are very easy to use these days. I would recommend Proxomitron (for Windows) as an easy and free package.
p.s. (OT) sucks about the car thing. you should take your story to the weekly papers here (I'm also in PDX). They'll hate the publicity and try to buy you off, hopefully. However, you do have to realize you were really, really dumb.
Re:recognizing value (Score:2)
Right, I volunteer. I spend my time on Slashdot being part of a community. There is no twisting logic here, and the owners of the site have nothing to do with the community (unfortunately, if the authors actually cared about the community life would be much different).
As for their attacks against me, they did not dislike what I said because I didn't say anything. I moderated. A privledge setup for the entire community who has a decent track record. They didn't mod my posts down, in fact Jamie has modded a few of my posts up. They are allowed to have an opinion, and I am entitled to disagree or agree. However, they are not allowed to think that they can set the $rtbl flag on a long standing user of the site for no good reason. They killed about 500 moderators for that thread -- that is abusing the power of a community based system when they are not an active part of the community.
I have a lot of rational recourses actually - I can stay here and post about getting the $rtbl flag set on my account for no decent reason and get some supporters and hopefully Rob will decide that Slashdot is in fact a community and he should either participate or hand the project over to someone who cares. Or, I can still post and not mod. Which is what I do now, I'm fine with it -- but I still would appreciate an apology from Rob for doing it to me. Dont' worry -- I'm not holding my breath.
Re:recognizing value (Score:2)
The reason why I would be interested in paying Slashdot for a subscription fee is to keep the community going. I really don't care about moderating, I rarely do it anyway only if I see something that is actually well thought out or damned hilarious. The fact it was taken away from me is irritating. I'm trying to help the community, hopefully it will work out ok.
RE: your p.s.
Waiting to see their next action in the legal battle before going forward with more info. Another 30 days of silence and I think I can take it that they are backing down -- then I go to the media and such. However I am thinking of spending a sunday in a business suit picketing with a sign "Carr Chevrolet Lied to Me." -- And yes, I do realize I was really really dumb. My mother never lets me forget that
Re:recognizing value (Score:2)
I was $rtbled too.
What really sucks is that they didn't even have the courtesy to send me a notice that it happened -- i just realized one day that i wasn't asked to metamod anymore.
So i asked Taco, and he ignored me. Same for Jamie and Hemos.
Finally i found Taco on IRC, and he said that they don't keep logs back that far of what the actual infraction was. All he knew was that i "moderated up a troll"
I never moderated up an actual troll, so i wanted to see what the post was. But like i said, by the time i actually found out that i had been rtbled, the logs had been destroyed so there was no way to defend myself.
I'm a good user. My karma's been at 50 for years. I never troll. I've been around Slashdot for a long time. But Taco decided that he didn't like the way i moderate, and so with no warning or even notice, he banned me from ever moderating or metamodding again.
And i don't even know what i did wrong.
Re:recognizing value (Score:2)
Fuck that. Rob, kiss my royal white irish ass. At least I get the piece of mind that as far as cash flow goes, I'm a liability instead of an assett. Too bad I'm still adding onto this site. I posted in response to Jamie, I will be more than surprised if he responds back to me.
Re:recognizing value (Score:1)
It seems that this thread started out about the expression of opinion that the commenters aren't what make Slashdot so popular and aren't an important part of this community.
Xerithane has a few issues with some of the editors on a personal level, but also believes (as to others) that editors' primary job is to select which news items are most appropriate for the FP and the community -- not to use their superuser priveldges to trounce users' conflicting opinions.
I happen to think that and editor as a moderator is a conflict of interest of sorts. Editors are certainly allowed to have their own opinions, in a newspaper the Ed/Op section is usually used for this. In a community like Slashdot, the editors can simply make posts like every other user and argue/discuss with other community members about the validity of their points or what not.
I also agree that it's their web site (or at least, it's OSDN's web site) and they're granted the freedom to do pretty much whatever they choose.
At the same time, it's politically and commercially unwise to estrange your users/community/constituants. Without anyone visiting and posting to this site (or submitting news articles) it becomes pretty useless and has no reason to stay.
Therefore, if for no other reason, it's good to have this blackout to remind the owners that it is the people that make Slashdot, not just the stories; and to get a feel for the number of posters who make their difference known if they are missing for a week and it is noticable.
At the very least it's interesting to see what (if any) effect this has on 'the statistics'. It may very well turn out to have no effect because for all the bitching and moaning that goes on, it's just talk.
Cheers!
I don't get paid for my time, I get time for my pay