Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment
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| Amendment request: Antisemitism in Poland | Motion | (orig. case) | 10 December 2020 |
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Amendment request: Antisemitism in Poland
Initiated by Volunteer Marek at 07:57, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Information about amendment request
- Topic ban is removed
Statement by Volunteer Marek
This is an appeal of my topic ban “from the history of Poland during World War II, including the Holocaust in Poland” as enacted on September 22, 2019, per the portion of the decision which states This topic ban may be appealed after one year has elapsed. [1]
Both myself and User:Icewhiz were topic-banned as a result of the case and we were both subject to an interaction ban. Subsequently for reasons which the committee should be familiar with, and which I mention below, Icewhiz was indefinitely banned from English Wikipedia, and then by the office, from all WikiMedia projects. Also relevant is the fact that WikiMedia’s Trust and Safety team assisted me in addressing the off-wiki harassment that Icewhiz was pursuing against me.[2][3]
At the outset I would like to bring to the committee’s attention the fact that my topic ban which resulted from the case was NOT based on any issue with the contents of my edit to article space. There were no findings of facts relating to POV or abuse of sources or any other similar issues. Instead, the topic ban was the result of the nature of my interactions with User:Icewhiz, on talk pages and various discussions. In particular I received the TB because the committee found that both of us displayed a battleground attitude, that I was incivil to Icewhiz, that I accused him of “making stuff up” (incidentally, Icewhiz’s own topic ban was based at least partly on the committee having similar issues with Icewhiz’s edits, particularly on BLPs [4]). At same time the committee acknowledged that Icewhiz had made false accusations against me, [5] made ethnically derogatory remarks, used inflammatory rhetoric and attempted to make extremely insulting insinuations against me. [6]
Essentially, the committee did not find anything wrong with my edits but did issue the topic ban for my incivil attitude towards him. This is understandable as I acknowledge that I did not always react well to Icewhiz’s provocations, especially given their extremely serious nature. I want to stress that Icewhiz was the only person that has managed to provoke such a reaction in me, and that even committee members acknowledged that there were no such problems with my editing outside of this narrow dispute (Arbitrator PreMeditatedChaos wrote in one of the relevant Findings of Fact: even Icewhiz has pointed out that VM's behavior is not an issue except in this topic area [7])
As such, in addition to more than a full year having elapsed, with Icewhiz being indefinitely banned from all WikiMedia project the reason for the topic ban has ceased to exist. In fact, given the subsequent events – the campaign of harassment that Icewhiz launched against me and numerous other Wikipedia editors (including several admins) – I had considered appealing the topic ban even before the one year deadline elapsed. In the end, because I was (and still am) very busy in real life with work and family issue, I decided that I might as well wait out the full year.
Even though Icewhiz is no longer on Wikipedia (although there was extensive socking in early 2020, however, the arbitration motion you guys passed in May [8] which implemented the 500/30 restriction seems to have been quite successful in curbing it) I do want to note that I have had quite a bit of time to rethink and reflect upon the events leading up to the arbitration case and the topic ban. I fully admit that I overreacted at the time and should have worked harder at keeping my cool. Lack of subsequent issues (*) in the year following should show that.
At the same time I also want to mention that my overall engagement with Wikipedia has been substantially reduced. This is mostly due to being much busier in real life for reasons related to the covid pandemic.
Thanks for the consideration and take care of yourselves
(*) In the interest of full disclosure I should note that early on, about a week or two after the enactment of the topic ban, I did violate it and was given a short block as a result of an AE report, enacted by Bradv. The topic ban went into effect on September 22, 2019. The block was on October 10, 2019. I have not been sanctioned for any violations of the topic ban since then (more than a year) and that instance happened in part due to my misunderstanding of the scope of the ban (the edit concerned an author’s work about World War I, although the same author was also known for writing about World War II)
@Beeblebrox: Honestly, since this was in April/May of last year, which is eons in Wikipedia time I don't even remember off the top off my head what this was about (apparently, Levivich couldn't remember it either since he had to go do digging for it only after your prompted them to follow up their vague accusations). Checking back through history, it seems that with regards to his diff 2 and diff 3 (same thing) there was an allegation that an edit of my violated the topic ban. I thought at the time they didn't since my edit concerned POST WAR Polish history, which would be outside the scope ban. There was some discussion on the issue, with finally User:El C saying that "the topic ban violation is not clear cut" [9]. Basically, while my edit was NOT about the topic there was a chunk of (newly added!) material in the relevant article that was (which I didn't touch, as El C explicitly noted "Volunteer Marek limits himself just to a discussion of the post-war time period (which he has been doing)"). However, he also pointed out that the fact that a different portion of the article dealt with WW2 would make it difficult for me to discuss some of the relevant issues on talk w/o violating the TB. That was a fair point. As a result I said ok, just to be sure, I won't edit the article anymore [10].
Sometimes it's very difficult to know what is covered and what is not covered by a given topic ban, especially since, as I noted elsewhere, World War 2 casts such a huge shadow over Polish history and culture that editing almost anything related to Poland will sooner or later bring you close to that topic. If this here was a topic ban violation (and it's not clear it was) then it was inadvertent one and I think I proceeded correctly - after it was brought to an admin's attention and they said it was "borderline", I disengaged from the article. I haven't edited it since. The matter was resolved and it hasn't come up again.
Levivich was NOT involved in this dispute in any capacity. I'm not sure why he feels that he in particular has to bring it here or what his motivation for doing so is. Volunteer Marek 01:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Buidhe
Unfortunately, I am not able to support this appeal, because I do not think it would be a net positive for the project or the topic area. Just over a week ago, they inserted this unhelpful comment on a dispute that they are not involved in.[11] Note, no evidence that I was edit warring was presented, nor did VM file a complaint against edit warring at another page, to be decided by an administrator. (I believe this is a spill-over from a content dispute on List of genocides by death toll, where VM is arguing for the inclusion of Polish Operation as a genocide. Arguably this skirts their topic ban because of the proximity to World War II.) (t · c) buidhe 19:26, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- The point is that VM is accusing me of edit warring across a number of pages. If it was true, he should have filed a report with all the evidence so that an uninvolved administrator could take appropriate action. (It's irrelevant whether or not there was edit warring on one particular page that VM never edited.) This comment seems to me to be a symptom of battleground attitude, which, I hope you agree, is not the behavior that is needed in this topic area.
- I am skeptical that the long-running POV and content problems, as described by Ealdgyth just four months ago, will be fixed by the current crop of editors, especially now that it is proposed only Icewhiz remains blocked from the original case and new editors are frequently accused of being their socks. Some are but what environment is being created for good faith editors?[12][13] (t · c) buidhe 17:23, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Levivich
I was going to stay out of this, but it's just not true (as arbs state below) that VM hasn't violated his topic ban since Bradv's block in October 2019. He's been warned for tban violations since then (for example, see his UTP history). There are also AE/AN/ANI threads in the last year; I don't remember offhand if they were for problems in or outside the topic area, or if they had any merit. But neither I nor any other member of the community should have to go digging to present this history to Arbcom. VM ought to list all of these things for the arbs to review. Levivich harass/hound 16:45, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Beeblebrox: OK: April 2020: User talk:Levivich/Archive 6#Support your allegation or strike it; May 2020: Special:Permalink/956951981#Topic ban and Special:Permalink/956952564#Please .... If an editor appealing a TBAN should be able to demonstrate that they have edited non-disruptively in other topic areas, then we should look at their editing in other topic areas, e.g. August 2020 Kenosha riots ANI (re copy and paste move and move warring) which resulted in a formal warning (for moves at the Biden and Kenosha pages); August 2020 ANI (re Steve Bannon, inc. group tban proposal that did not succeed); and Sep 2020 UTP thread about edit warring at Turning Point USA and Steele dossier articles. This is not intended to be an exhaustive list; it's just the things that I happen to recall. (I'm not pinging the various admins involved so as not to be accused of canvassing.) Levivich harass/hound 21:49, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Piotrus
The topic ban is one of the few remaining vestiges of the Icewhiz-era. It made mild sense as a way to prevent BATTLEGROUND that Icewhiz was creating and too often goading VM into engaging him (IIRC it came as a set combo with the interaction ban and Ice received the mirror equivalents of both of these as well). Now that Icewhiz is gone (the main account, as he still continues socking and real-life harassment and manipulation, for which he was site banned - Trust&Safety can provide further details if any ArbCom member requires them, I am sure) it makes no sense to keep VM restricted; all it does is that it still empowers Icewhiz behind the scenes and as such it is one of his 'victories' we can and should undo to move on.
Regarding preceding comments by Buidhe and Levivich, they are either disappointing petty attempts to keep people one disagreed with under the heel and out of one's hair, or worse, evidence of proxying for Icewhiz. Levivich has not been much active in the topic areas VM frequents/ed, and I think neither had interacted much with VM, yet now we see some obscure diffs from articles they never edited or discussions they did not participate in (!) concerning editor they should not care about. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:35, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by El_C
I commend members of the Committee for expressing views in favour of, as well as an immediate motion, to rescind the ban. That is the right call. Not least because I don't think there's any indication that Volunteer Marek is likely to edit disruptively in the topic area. I'd like to also add the following emphasis to the record: the level of harassment that Volunteer Marek has endured (that I know of) is so beyond the pale, it's truly sickening. So needless to say, wide latitude should be extended to him for any past misconduct or near-misconduct which were directly impacted by this sinister and nefarious abuse. Anyway, looks like all is going well as far as this amendment is concerned — apologies in advance to VM in case I just jinxed it! El_C 05:17, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Piotrus, while I disagree with Buidhe and Levivich here, I think it's inappropriate of you to raise the specter that one or both of them might be "proxying for Icewhiz." Beyond sensing intuitively that this is highly (highly) unlikely to be the case, they are both editors in good standing. They should not have to suffer such aspersions, just because you perceive the veracity of their position to fall short. El_C 05:35, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Cullen 328
It seems obvious to me that removing this topic ban, imposed when the editor was under extreme harassment by the banned Icewhiz, is a good thing for the encyclopedia, and I hope that the arbs will come to the same conclusion. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:44, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Nihil novi
The now-banned Icewhiz's misbehaviors on Wikipedia, prior to his ban and since, have been truly egregious and should be counted as an extenuating circumstance to some of VM's responses to Icewhiz's provocative actions. I believe it is time to welcome VM back to a subject area to which he can make substantial contributions.
Thank you.
Nihil novi (talk) 22:29, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Peacemaker67
I am a great fan of TBANs, which usually work well to protect controversial areas of the project subject to Arbitration cases from egregious disruption by POV-pushers. However, I don't think this description applies to VM's behaviour that led to the TBAN. Considering Icewhiz has been ejected, and VM doesn't appear to have clearly breached the TBAN, I think Arbs should accept VM's request in good faith. Of course, in the tradition of supplying people with enough rope, VM should be under no illusions that any future disruption in the TBAN space will likely result in an indefinite TBAN. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:40, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Antisemitism in Poland: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Antisemitism in Poland: Arbitrator views and discussion
- Noting that I'm amenable to lifting the topic ban - but want to hear community thoughts first. When I supported the topic ban, I did not feel strongly that it was required - but given VM's history in similar areas I thought a suggestion of moving elsewhere would be helpful. Given subsequent events - and assuming there has been no flare up, I am willing to concede it is no longer (and perhaps was never) needed. WormTT(talk) 08:43, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- The topic ban (and most of the other remedies in Arbitration of Poland) was based almost entirely on the two-way dispute between VM and Icewhiz. Since Icewhiz has been indefinitely banned, and there have apparently been no issues with the topic ban for a year, I agree that it no longer serves a purpose. I support lifting it and have proposed a motion. – Joe (talk) 12:53, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Buidhe, the administrator who closed that report also concluded you were edit warring, so that comment doesn't seem off the mark to me. (Report 1, Report 2). – bradv🍁 16:33, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Levivich: I barely know where to begin replying to your remarks. Suffice it to say that if you are going to make accusations the onus is indeed on you to back them up with evidence. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: I think we need to know what you might have to say about the diffs now provided by Levivich. It does look like there were further violations of the tban that went unreported. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:58, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your reply. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:58, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Antisemitism in Poland: Motion
Remedy 4b of Antisemitism in Poland ("Volunteer Marek topic-banned") is rescinded.
- For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Enacted - KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:28, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support
- Proposed. – Joe (talk) 12:53, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- As VM mentions, I blocked him for violating this topic ban over a year ago, and as far as I'm aware he has not violated it since. In my opinion the topic ban has outlived its usefulness. – bradv🍁 16:39, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:06, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've mulled this over a bit and I think the risk in removing the tban is minimal. I can't really hold the more recent possible violations against Marek as the community members who saw them felt it was not egregious enough to report them, and I do believe there were, and still are, mitigating circumstances. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:48, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Katietalk 01:45, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- I think it's worth a shot but I echo Peacemaker67's comment regarding WP:ROPE. DS are still authorized in this area per WP:ARBEE, so if problems occur, a new topic ban can be instated under the regular DS regime. Regards SoWhy 08:18, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- I thank the community for their comments, and have taken them on board, but since I was reticent about the need for this when it was put in place and given the non-egregious nature of breaches (thanks for the discussion on those), I'm willing to rescind this WormTT(talk) 08:59, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose
- the history in this area of editing is too long. DGG ( talk ) 03:50, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Recuse
- Comments