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The Greatest Scientist of the 20th Century

I think the claim '...the greatest scientist of the 20th Century...' is hyperbole. My own view is that he can't have been this because (1) he was a theoretician and (2) how original a theoretician he was is very contentious, (see contributions from others on priority for many parts of the work claimed by him or attributed to him). All science is cumulative but for what it's worth my suggestion for a stand-out-figure on the basis of intellectual brilliance and practical achievement is Nikola Tesla. The progressive development of our material circumstances and welfare at such a marked rate in the last 100 years has its technological cause in the creation of devices which effectively generate, transmit and use energy and I'm not aware of any other single individual whose theoretical and practical achievements in this area even approach let alone exceed Tesla's. He also had some choice things to say about the work of others, including Einstein, on relativity, '...[a] magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king...., its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists...', (New York Times, July 11, 1935, p23, c.8), and 'I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have no properties. It might as well be said that God has properties. He has not, but only attributes and these are of our own making. Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I, for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view.', (New York Hearald Tribune, September 11, 1932) and '...the relativity theory, by the way, is much older than its present proponents. It was advanced over 200 years ago by my illustrious countryman Boskovic, the great philospher, who not withstanding other and multifold obligations wrote a thousand volumes of excellent literature on a vast variety of subjects. Boskovic dealt with relativity, including the so-called time-space continuum...', (1936 unpublished interview, quoted in Anderson, L, ed. Nikola Tesla: Lecture Before the New York Academy of Sciences: The Streams of Lenard and Roentgen and Novel Apparatus for Their Production, April 6, 1897, reconstructed 1994).--Smark33021 00:56, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whether Tesla was great or not doesn't really matter here, the line in question is "who is widely regarded as the greatest scientist of the 20th century." Which is generally accurate -- he is widely regarded as such -- whether or not you (or I) agree with such an opinion. In the popular mind, and indeed in the mind of many scientists, he is portrayed as the exemplar figure for "scientist" even if in reality one could make several arguments to the contrary.--Fastfission 20:04, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Brownian motion

Does anyone besides me think that Einsteins observation that the brownian motion of pollen in water, considered the first real proof of the molecular theory of matter, is worth mentioning? --BlackGriffen

What exactly did he observe? Wasn't the Brownian motion known already? --AxelBoldt

Yes. The first well-known publications about it were by a botanist called Brown in the early 19th century. But no-one had a clue why it happened. Einstein's theory of it, backed up by actual mathematics, completely solved the mystery. It also convinced many more conservative scientists that atoms and molecules exist, something they had previously been reluctant to accept, especially in Germany. (Others below have partially answered your question, but i thought not clearly enough.) -- Geronimo Jones

IIRC, it was Einstiens observation that the pollen in a glass of water underwent brownian motion that was consider the proof. I'll post more about it after I double check. --BlackGriffen

See Brownian motion! -- User:Miguel

It is critically important. It was one of the most-often cited papers of Einstein's in the early part of his career. --RjLesch

He also got the Nobel Prize for it, didn't he?

He got his Nobel for the photoelectric effect. JDR

Yes, I just checked my source today, and it says that Einstein observed the chaotic motion of pollen in water, and surmised that this was do to the chaotic motion of molecules that caused it. After lab experiments verified his observation, even the staunches detractors of the existance of molecules and atoms admitted their existance. Before then, atoms/molecules were regarded as a useful construct with no concrete evidence behind them. Einstein provided that evidence. --BlackGriffen

Sorry, it was not Einstein, but was Brown that observed it. Einstein explained it using kinetic theory. This made Brownian motion in retrospect into a justification for atomic theory. What is your source? -- Miguel

D'oh! I just read RjLesch's additions to the main page. My explanation was just a few hours late. --BlackGriffen

Wish I could claim credit, but that wasn't mine. --RjLesch

References

A few quick refs:

http://www.matse.psu.edu/matsc81/GLOSSARYold/people14.html

http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/einsteinBM.html

http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~nd/surprise_95/journal/vol4/ykl/report.html

Quotations

Since we're adding Einstein's personal/political views, perhaps we should include this quote, "Marriage is nothing more than an attempt to make something lasting out of an incident." I don't know if those were his exact words, but it was very close to that. --BlackGriffen

(also see The Bomb, infra)

Relativity

THe first paragraph is bit dodgy. I think some Irish physicist was the first to propose Special Relativity before 1895. Possibly called Fitzgerald? Lorenz, Minkowski and others may also have been slightly before Einstein. As far as i know, Einstein was the first with a workable General Relativity, but that came later.

Note that Einstein was involved in a priority dispute with Hilbert over the Lagrangian formulation of the theory of general relativity.

While the particular Lorenz transformations were of course known, Einstein came up with an axiomatic approach to derive them and also with several re-interpretations of fundamental concepts, such as time and size, energy=mass etc.

I believe these parts of special relativity are exclusively his, and they are arguably more important than the transformation laws. --AxelBoldt

Agreed. The Lorenz-FitzGerald contractions were really an attempt to rehabilitate the ether theory; Eistein's conceptual framework was fundamentally different, though it ended up using the same formulae. Lorenz and FitzGerald are nonetheless important figures, as was Minkowski (though the Minkowski spacetime relations were, I believe, published in 1908 as a response to Einstein). --RjLesch.

My original text:

...the Michelson-Morley experiment, which had shown that light waves could not travel through a medium (other known waves travelled through media - such as water or air). The speed of light was thus fixed, and not relative to the movement of the observer

Heron's version:

...the Michelson-Morley experiment, which had shown that light waves did not require a medium to travel through (other known waves travelled through media - such as water or air). The speed of light was thus fixed, and not relative to the movement of the observer.

This is definitely an improvement in some respects (my prose was not beautiful :), but it's also potentially misleading, because it could be interpreted as saying "MM shows: where there is no medium, there is no light".

I've tried to improve on the original wording, while avoiding the misinterpretation, with "light waves could not be travelling through a medium".

--Pde 08:02 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)

We are getting closer. How about this: "The MM experiment discredited the theory that light was a disturbance of a hypothetical medium called the luminiferous ether, leading Einstein to conclude that light did not depend on any medium for its propagation and therefore that its speed was fixed."

Perhaps hypothetical medium should be hypothetical, intangible medium. Or something. The point which would be nice to pass along here is that, if you have studied Newtonian physics, any attempt to understand the movement of light will begin by inserting a co-ordinate system to measure it with; this is really all the aether was.

On a related note, I don't think it's enough to say its speed was fixed. In Newtonian physics, speeds are fixed, relative to any yardstick. When you move relative to the yardstick, the speed you see is different (this is intuitive). In SR, the speed is the same regardless of how you are moving. Pde

I think my confusion was partly due to a dual meaning of the word medium: (1) stuff that is required for a signal to propagate, and (2) any transparent or translucent stuff that isn't a vacuum. MM proved that (1) didn't exist, but said nothing about (2). Physicists probably assume meaning (1) when they read this, but hair-splitters like me see both meanings. How am I doing? -- Heron

(1) and (2) are not totally seperate concepts. Your statement of (2) is perhaps incomplete, because what I would expect, if I were a 19th Century physicist, is a medium in the sense of (2) which is the vacuum, and the conductor (1) for electricity and magnetism. This is the "universal co-ordinate system" I mentioned above. -- Pde 01:11 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

the bomb

"His theoretical work suggested the possibility of creating an atomic bomb." I think even this is too strong. Einstein's only contribution to the atomic bomb was political.

I agree.I also think there's a problem with, "More immediately, however, the equation set people to dreaming of explosive weaponry..." E=mc2 is neither necessary nor sufficient to show that a nuclear chain reaction is possible. E=mc2 says that /every/ form of energy is equivalent to mass. This is just as true for chemical reactions as for nuclear reactions. --bcrowell

All that E=mc² contributes to the Bomb is that if you can shave out a little binding energy, Avogadro's number×c² will give you a big return. Furthermore, it's been (re)discovered that (like Lorenz-Fitzgerald contraction) priority for E=mc² is someone else's, Olinto De Pretto published it a year or two before AE. [1] copying [2] There's a quote attributed to AE, which IMO must be included if it can be verified: ‘The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.’ [3] Kwantus

the unified field teory

"He spent his last 20 years in an increasingly isolated and ultimately unsuccessful attempt at constructing a theory that would unify General Relativity and quantum mechanics." Is this correct? I thought he was trying to construct a non-quantum-mechanical theory that would unify all the forces. --bcrowell

Given his distaste for QM, I tend to agree, but I don't know the details. AxelBoldt 00:04 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)

copyright

Isn't the photo copyrighted? As far as I've been able to find out, all the post-1922 photos of Einstein are owned by various organizations. I have a circa-1905 public-domain photo here, [4], which could replace it. --bcrowell

Yes, I think it would be better to go with the earlier photo. AxelBoldt 00:04 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)

politics

I made two corrections to the article. 1) It said Einstein denounced his German citizineship at age of 17. This is incorrect information. He was the director of Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics in Berlin for almost 20 years from 1914 to 1933. 2) The article said "he signed a letter" to FDR regarding development of an atomic bomb programme. Einstein actually wrote that letter himself. It is also noteworthy that he wrote that letter to Roosevel before World War II started. --Keyvan 03:25 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

On point 2 (signing the letter). It appears that Einstein did dictate a letter, but it wasn't sent, and he instead signed two drafts written by Szilard (which IIRC were prepared before the first visit). There is some evidence here: http://www.google.com/search?q=signed+szilard+einstein+visit+teller ; if you don't have any to the contrary, the text should be changed back. -- Pde 00:34 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

Einstein saying, "I really only acted as a mail box. They brought me a finished letter and I simply signed it" seems pretty convincing to me. I'll change it back. -- Someone else 00:49 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

I thought it was "common knowledge" among those who care about such matters that the letter was the instigation of Szilard, who didn't send it himself because the first thing anyone'd ask is "Who the firetruck is Leo Lizard?"; so he got his friend/teacher with a name to sign it. On another point, one way or another the letter was long before Germany declared on the US, since Roosevelt initiated the Manhattan Project the day before Pearl Harbor. -- Kwantus 02:30, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Please do not deprive the artice from a perfectly correct and relevant information based on a "Google search". Einstein was not a moron to mindlessly sign something that others had drafted for him. Others may have helped him with the English text of the letter as Einstein's first language was German, but the contents of the letter clearly show it was his own. Furthermore, he was the ONLY signator of that letter, not one of many. This is not a negative reflection on Einstein as the article mentions that later in life he regretted having written that letter. I will put the original text back into the article. --Keyvan 15:59 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC)

It seems that Einstein became a Swiss citizen in February 1901. Why would that be incompatible with being director of Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics in Berlin from 1914 to 1933? -- Someone else 03:33 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

Because unfortunately, if a lie is repeated enough for the masses, they start to believe it to be a fact. The fact is that Einstein was a citizen of Germany, and the Nazi regime revoked his citizenship in March of 1934. But by that time, Einstein was already living in USA (I believe he moved to USA in 1933). --Keyvan 03:39 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

I haven't looked it up in a reputable source, as I have none at hand. I trust you have done so. It's not hard to envision that he switched citizenships more than once, or that the Germans considered him a German citizen when he himself did not. -- Someone else 03:44 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

Now looked up. According to Larousse's Biographical Dictionary, he took Swiss nationality in 1901 and was appointed examiner at the Swiss Patent Office 1902-1905, and became an American citizen in 1940. -- Someone else 03:51 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps it was possible to have dual citizenship, or as you said, maybe he switched back and forth multiple times. But he certainly did serve as director of Physics Institute at the Kaiser Wilhelm Society for the Advancement of Sciences from 1914 to 1933. And his citizenship was revoked in 1934, so that suggests that by 1934 he was still a citizen of Germany (at least on paper). If he had no alligiance to Germany all that time, indeed it would seem odd (perhaps even unethical) to accept such a high ranking position for nearly 20 years, and enjoy all the benefits. He certainly developed the bulk of his scientific achievements there. --Keyvan 03:58 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

I see no reason a Swiss citizen could not reside and work in Germany. If you find a reference that says he was a German citizen at the time, or a dual citizen, by all means add it. -- Someone else 04:03 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

Why are we writing about a dead man in the present tense?

I note a few changes since I last saw this article, leading to two questions:

Why are we writing about a dead man in the present tense? (a problem it seems especially in the "Early Years" section
Why are marriage, etc, taken out of chronological order, so that we have in effect two biographies instead of one? --Someone else 01:10, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I've now changed present to past tense and restored chronological order. -- Someone else 04:55, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Why write about history in the present tense? I'm not sure the exact reason, but one of the courses I took in college "Writing on History" (or something similar to that) instilled in me to write history in the present tense. It's commonly accepted by historians when writing on history that you write in the present tense (unless something has changed in the last decade since I left school). You probably could find out exactly if you research as to why historians do it, I forget right now. IIRC, It may be that it helps the readibility of the timeline.

Why chronological order not perfect? Musta been just a simple mistake (by me or was existing before I edited the page) ... not trying to develop a divergent history or anything ... reddi 14:37, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I can't find out exactly why historians do it, because they don't. And they don't mix past and present tenses within a paragraph. Get a refund on that course. And even if they did, encyclopedias don't. It certainly didn't help readability here. No problem, it's fixed now. -- Someone else 20:26, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Origins of QM

In 1922, when he was awarded the Nobel Prize, and his work on photoelectricity was mentioned by name, most physicists thought that, while the equation was correct, light quanta were impossible.

Just wondering, can someone cite a specific source for this? It's quite significant, a bit fuzzy ("most") and definitely a claim which some readers may wish to follow up further. -- Pde

I have to agree with the above. Max Plank was the one who first stated that light comes in quantized energy forms, and that was at the turn of the century. My physical electronics prof said that Arthur Holly Compton's experiments in 1926-1927 put the final nail in the coffin. So I have to believe that it had gaind major acceptance before 1922. --Raul654 14:40, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Einstein and school

The claim that he did poorly in school is completely bogus. This is a recurring urban rumor that started due to one biography (I can't remember which) and won't die. The whole thing resulted when the German school system decided to go from a 1-6 grading system with 1 as "A" to a decimal system with 100 as "A". For one particular year they reversed the 1-6, with 6 being "A", thereby confusing everyone, including the biographer who said he failed math. What's particularily annoying is that the very report card on which the 6 appears states in the comments that "Albert is very good at maths and sciences", but apparently the biographer couldn't/didn't read it.

User:Maury Markowitz

Einstein, Quantum Theory and EPR experiment

Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox is worth to mention. Its good point to discussion of Einsteins relation to quantum theory - myth spread by some popular books on physics is something like "even Einstein did not understood quantum mechanics", and EPR is clear example he know and understand very well.

That EPR article may well be his most contemporary cited - other works lie deep in foundations, but every second work on interpretations of Quantum Theory reference to EPR/

Plagiarism, POV, etc

Citation: for those that thought Plautus just "came up with this idea," please refer to at least one book on the subject: "Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist", Christopher Jon Bjerknes, 2002, XTX Inc., isbn: 0-9719629-8-7 There are others as well, but the interested researcher can surely find them on his/her own. -Ionized 19:32, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)

Plautus himself cited that book. It's already been discussed on this page, unless Plautus deleted or edited the discussions. Nothing new, no reason to bring it up again. Curps 19:55, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Ok, I did not see that. All I saw where people asking for references. Next time Ill try to sift deeper into the muck to see what has been cited already. -Ionized 05:52, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to keep the section on plagiarism. The bit about Einstein being bad at math is patently false (in fact, Einstein's Ph.D. dissertation was nearly rejected because one of the examiners felt that it should have been submitted for a Ph.D. in math, not physics, as the subject was mostly differential equations.) However, I see no reason to toss out the vignette on Einstein's brain just because it was added by the same user. It seems to be verifiable and is an interesting footnote to Einstein's life. Isomorphic 20:08, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough, after all the Charlie Chaplin pages mentions the grave robbery of his body. No need for the second sentence though, as it's a non-event (nothing of any significance happened on that road trip) and perhaps a plug for a book.

And this: http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Biographies/EinsteinBio.htm

states: "In 1895 Einstein failed an examination that would have allowed him to study for a diploma as an electrical engineer at the Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule (ETH) in Zurich. Einstein renounced German citizenship in 1896 and was to be stateless for a number of years...Following the failing of the entrance exam to the ETH, Einstein attended secondary school at Aarau planning to use this route to enter the ETH in Zurich."

What do you suppose constituted most of that examination? Mathematics, perhaps?

So this man, who was mathematically inept and a self-professed dullard who lacked both imagination and practical ability, published three papers that revolutionized physics, was awarded an honorary doctorate and won the Nobel prize all in one year? hmm...

The bit about Einstein failing grade school math is already debunked on the talk page above. I'll answer the rest. The quotes listed above are full of misconceptions, misumderstanding, and urban legends repeated as fact. The exact events surrounding Einstein's departure from the Gymnasium (high school, roughtly) without graduating are murky. It's fairly clear, however, that he didn't like it there, was bored with classical studies, and was a troublemaker. He was glad to go, and the administration was glad to kick him out. It had little to do with his ability, and certainly not with his mathematical ability.

Once he left the Gymnasium, he went to live with his parents in Italy. This created a difficulty because he was too old for the schools there, but family finances required him to start preparing for a career. Thus his father had him take the examinations for the ETH, despite the fact that Albert was two years younger than most students entering ETH. Einstein failed the exam. It's commonly believed that this is because he didn't meet standards in languages, biology, and other non-mathematical topics. In his own later words, his failure was his fault as he "had made no attempt whatsoever to prepare himself." It has been suggested this was because he didn't want to follow his father's wishes and become an electrical engineer.

He studied for a year nearby at the cantonal school at Aarau. He then passed the ETH exams on his second try, spent four years at ETH.

His attendance at another school eliminated the requirement of an entrance exams. A similar practice is used in universities all over the world to this day. If your test scores are abysmal, try a year or two at a junior college. - Plautus

"Einstein took his examination at the ETH in the summer of 1896. He passed, returned to his parents in Italy..." direct quote Einstein: The Life and Times by Ronald Clark. This was his second try, as he had failed in 1895. Isomorphic

While there, he studied math and physics under professors including Hermann Minkowski. He graduated with a respectable 4.91 out of 6.00. He was not hired subsequently because his he was an cocksure, independent student, and the physics professor at ETH, Heinrich Weber didn't like him.

How convenient. I'm amazed you didn't claim he wasn't hired due to antisemitism. - Plautus

I didn't, because that wouldn't have been true. Isomorphic

All this is summarized from the respected biography by Ronald Clark, sitting in front of me, not off a website or extracted out-of-context from an encyclopedia. Since I've gone to the trouble of typing it up, I wouldn't mind if someone would incorporate relevant bits of it into the main article when it gets unprotected. Isomorphic 21:46, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and incidentally, the idea that Einstein could've plagiarized this work from papers submitted to the patent office is just silly. Scientist do not submit patent applications for work in theoretical physics.

You're right, theoretical physicists don't patent their daydreams, but experimental physicists who actually produce something and expect compensation for it do patent their ideas.

Special relativity and quantum mechanics were without practical application when Einstein wrote his papers on them. Why would anyone have put them in a patent application? Isomorphic 22:00, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It wasn't put into patent applications necessarily, but it was published in papers by these men. I'm sorry you have problems with observable reality.

YMMV on the patent office ... though I personally don't think he plagerized anything, I would say that being there was good for him and him developing the theories (seeing a bit o' this and a bit o' that ... but no one else had it all (only parts o' "it"); you should read some patents, they are neat) ... inventions are based on physics, see Tesla patents for an example of this [and I have my own personal conspiracy theories on 'stien and Tesla, not that there is much evidence (other than what is out there already) for 'em =-] ...

Now, as to Special relativity and quantum mechanics, that is just building on previous works [he may not of "independently" developed this, but most don't ... they work off of the work that had came before (this does not mean he plagerized anything though)] ... what I'm trying to say is that he connected the dots and told ppl (and got recognized; some who do connect things don't get recognized till years later [if ever]). I DO NOT agree that he palgerized other's work, only that he built upon what was there (ex. the Lorentz transforms) ... and this is done today (scientists don't reinvent the wheel) ... so I don't think it's a big deal (and I think that is what it says basically in the article, but i'll have to reread it) ... and this has never made me feel less of him (i've always like ol' 'stien) .... Sincerely, JDR

Since I protected it, I won't express an opinion. I can say that the section about his brain is true. →Raul654 20:15, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

Google search for "einstein plagiarism" (7380 hits) finds "Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist", one on amazon.com, so the book probably exists. Κσυπ Cyp 20:16, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I was assuming that The Incorrigible Plagiarist exists. The question, of course, is whether it's worthwhile enough to repeat its claims in the article. I think not. Also, thanks to Plautus for figuring out how not to attribute his words to me this time. Isomorphic 20:32, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The text that Plautus satire keeps pasting in here is from this page: http://home.comcast.net/~xtxinc/einstein.htm It looks like it has a copyright notice on it. SheikYerBooty 20:34, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

If you'll check again you'll see it's not direct quoting, but paraphrasing. Paraphrasing is not a violation of fair use. Also quoting a single, unattributed sentence is not plagiarism as implied by fair use.

Plaguarism and copyright violations are not the same thing. Fair use protects againt copyright violations. At Wikipedia, we care about both. Therefore, when quoting, we cite sources. →Raul654 20:39, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

And does agreeing with a sentiment and expressing it using similar words equate to plagiarism? Am I to cite every source or merely one arbitrary source of a given "idea" before I am able to put that idea into words? Give me a break. What I did was in no way a violation of fair use nor was it plagiarism. If I thought it were appropriate to sprinkle URL's around to back up every statement I would, but that's what talk is for is it not? I'll gladly provide abundant souce material here.

The litmus test for plaguarism is - "are the thoughts you are expressing yours?" In this case, you took someone else's words (thoughts) without attribution. That is plaguarism. Even if it wasn't a copyright violation (something I am not convinced of either way - Jamesday would be better to ask though), we still don't want plagurized material here. →Raul654 20:47, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

Instead of plagiarism I suggest you look up the word slander. I did not claim that the idea Einstein was a plagiarist came from me or my own research or, as Einstein would probably claim, from my dreams and thought experiments. If I had, then you would have a case to make against me for plagiarism. Honestly this tit-for-tat crap has got to go. I did, in fact, claim that a named author who wrote an also named book presents abundant evidence of Einstein's plagiarism and the extent to which it was known about by his contemporaries. And in describing that book I chose words that were very similar to words used by others to describe the same book. Is it plagiarism for two people to observe the same book and draw the same conclusions from it? Hardly.

Let's pick that statement apart:

I did not claim that the idea Einstein was a plagiarist came from me or my own research ... experiments.

You did. The name "Einstein" evokes images of genius, but Albert Einstein was, in fact, a plagiarist, who copied the theories of Lorentz, Poincare, Gerber, and Hilbert. Notice, no citation, which means you (supposedly) came up with this idea on your own. Also, I'd like to note that according to official Wikipedia policy, only accepted facts and theories are supposed to be here, and original research is not. This particular statement is not generally accepted.

If I had, then you would have a case to make against me for plagiarism.

Agreed.

Honestly this tit-for-tat crap has got to go.

Agreed.

I did, in fact, claim that a named author who wrote an also named book presents abundant evidence of Einstein's plagiarism and the extent to which it was known about by his contemporaries.

Agreed.

And in describing that book I chose words that were very similar to words used by others to describe the same book.

A likely story. The similiarities are almost word for word. →Raul654 21:09, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

Is it plagiarism for two people to observe the same book and draw the same conclusions from it? Hardly.

I agree, if that is the case.

→Raul654 21:09, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

Raul654, I'm going to give you the try-hard award for this one. Clearly you're going way out on a limb to hang this plagiarism charge on me. Careful, don't get too close to the end of the limb, oh no, don't fall! - Plautus Satire

Just a note ... I tried to include his info, but the "critic" refused to leave it at the end (a good place for critics of all sorts, not just 'stien). It's not suitable for the intro. But, appearantly the "critic" didn't want to "go along" (I personally tried to note the criticsm after it was posted in the article (copy edited it and put it @ the bottom)... the crticism would/should be noted (as einstien does have them today; but most are refutable) and this should placed appropriately (everyone has critics, but leave it to the last)) ... so, instead, we got a page protection =-\ ... JDR

I see. You want the observable evidence relegated to a "criticism" of the Einsteinian fables. Wonderful idea. Don't put relevant facts up front where they can be seen to conflict with the dogma. - Plautus Satire

You see? I don't think you do ...

"Want the observable evidence relegated to a "criticism" of the Einsteinian fables"? Ummm no ... "criticism" (everyone and everything got one) could be noted ... just placed in the appropriate space ... NOT @ the beginning (other articles have crtics, and they nearly always are @ the bottom) ... you have to explain subject before you can criticize it ...

"Wonderful idea"? So you agree? hmmm ...mabey not ...

"Don't put relevant facts up front where they can be seen to conflict with the dogma"? I am starting to think what you are saying is dogma ... NOW, it's called point-counterpoint .... state the detail / facts and, then, state the opposing facts (with addition point-counterpoints on those) ... you will find that is the general way around these part [from my experience; alot of articles have critic sections]. I have heard some of your criticism ... and could agree on some criticism [some other criticism not] ('stien has been a personal hero o' mine since I was young ... so this is not a "new" thing to me ... I may have heard o' some o' the critical points that you place in earlier IIRC ...), and I would like to include your points (if not only for the fact to refute them with others points, as there are counterpoints to the critics) ... but you have to be cooperative, not combative.Sincerely, JDR

If your ideas have merit, that will be enough to get them general acceptance. Once they are generally accepted, we'll see about giving them a more prominent place in the article. Right now, this comes under the catagory of "crank theory" -- which, for the record, is explictely exluded by wikipedia policy →Raul654 21:25, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

You mean like the idea of a deity? Clearly the idea of a deity is an absurd notion, but a very popular one. Last time I checked about ninety-eight percent of the human population of Earth believed in some sort of deity. Should evolutionary theory simply be an appendix of possible criticisms of biblical creationism? - Plautus Satire

Perhaps, but you're changing the issue (again). →Raul654 21:29, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

You started it. - Plautus Satire

You're trolling. If you keep it up much longer, you will inevitably be banned. →Raul654 21:49, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

Zionism

I intend to insert material into the Albert Einstein entry near the existing claim that Albert Einstein was a zionist. I intend to elaborate further, citing the volume of his writings titled About Zionism: Speeches and Lectures by Professor Albert Einstein published in 1930, which is, I believe, the source of this claim he was a zionist (which he claims in this volume). (P.S.: also correcting "first president" to "second president")- Plautus

I would like to remove the added paragraphs of Einstein's alleged Zionism. Failing that, I think a NPOV dispute disclaimer should be added until we come to an agreement. If we do keep the Zionism information then the least we can do is move it to the correct sub-level under politics. This is a hot topic recently so I'm asking here before just moving stuff around. SheikYerBooty 19:58, Feb 15, 2004 (UTC)

In the first place, I didn't "add paragraphs of Einstein's alleged zionism". The claim was already in the entry that Einstein was a supporter of zionism. What I did was provide source material in Einstein's own words where he stated he was in fact a religionist, a zionist and a nationalist. Later testimony from him on the subject seems to indicate age mellowed him away from these "hardline" stances. In the second place, I stated what Einstein claimed about himself. Where is the dispute? It seems the only dispute is you disputing nearly any and everything that I post. Get over it already. Take your lumps and move on. Why is it you fail to mention I corrected a glaring factual error, namely that Einstein was offered the SECOND presidency of Israel, not the FIRST. Check the page history and see how long the WRONG information has been in there. Where were your cries of outrage and dispute then? I suspect you are simply a reactionary person who has got a hardon for me and is out to do in anything I contribute to wikipedia in any way you are able to. How many times are you going to try and get my working pages protected, reverted and my IP banned in violation of the wikipedia guidelines? Where is my persistent vandalism? Disagreeing with you and the other people who are more comfortable with fables than with truth? That's not vandalism, that's a cry in the wilderness, the frustrated shouts of the only human being on Planet of the Apes. - Plautus

(PS: I added material to clarify an EXISTING CLAIM, I did not "add" the claim that Einstein was a zionist as Sheikyerbooty suggests below.) Plautus satire 16:52, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Plautus, you most certainly did add "paragraphs" to the article regarding Mr. Einstein's changing support for Zionism. The word count now stands at approximately 480, before you came online is was 27 words. You've admitted yourself that his views "mellowed" as he got older yet your included quotes and statements try and picture him at his most extreme. We need to come to an agreement and compromise since I intend to start editing that page tomorrow, but I won't get involved in an edit war with you.

I've not tried to get you banned or blocked, I've only asked for your cooperation in discussing things before you start (and continue) edit wars, but you've decided to ignore those requests and continue with your hardline attitude. I do find it strange that you've been involved in numerous edit wars, been blocked at least twice and directly caused at least four pages to get locked, all that in two days. Relax sport, it's just an encyclopedia. -SheikYerBooty 06:33, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

First of all, how many of my edits are still extant? How many of the overreactions to my edits were halted by page protection? How much of my input is still in wikipedia, despite the efforts of you and others to squash my input? Here's a clue, Sheikyerbooty: I don't have to get your permission to edit pages. Every edit I have made to wikipedia was after consideration and the arrival at the conclusion that what I saw was wrong, but what I knew was right. If I make mistakes I am more than willing to admit it, because of the "good faith" nature of my edits. All good faith edits to pages should be given all due consideration, instead of immediately being reverted in a kneejerk fashion simply because evidence conflicts with the pre-existing fables. Like the fable about Einstein being offered the first presidency of Israel, which he was not. I corrected that, and I corrected and added other things about Einstein, such as the very relevant fact that his brain was not cremated, but was in fact preserved by a pathologist. Perhaps encyclopedia entries aren't the place for speculative conclusions, but they most certainly are the place to put relevant facts about a subject, don't you agree? What am I saying, of course you agree. You just don't seem to be willing to practice what you preach when you take a dislike to another contributor. - Plautus satire 16:55, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Second of all, what I did was make "good faith" edits of entries. You and others started the "revision wars" without proper discussion. Apparently you and others felt the need to "protect" the masses from my presentations of factual information. Once again, how much of that factual information is still there, despite attempts by you and others to bury it all? You're right, it is strange that so many people would oppose such obviously good and valid edits. It's almost as if there is some sort of troll mafia out there determined to preserve crippled knowlege. Why is it that you and others are unwilling to take any responsibility for an "edit war"? It takes two people to have a fight, didn't your mother ever teach you that, or were you an only child? Only children do tend to be spoiled and pouty. Continuous reversion in place of disucssion of facts on the table is just as culpable for an edit war as the original good faith edit which included those facts. - Plautus satire 17:02, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Einstein, a "mathematician"?

It is misleading to call Einstein a "physicicist and mathematician" . His degrees were in physics only, and while he undoubtedly had a certain mastery of mathematics, so do many people in many fields. Moreover, according to Clarke's well-respected biography, he was helped tremendously by the mathematician Hermann Minkowski from Göttingen, Germany, who described Einstein as a "lazy dog who never bothered about mathematics at all." Einstein wrote, "The people in Göttingen sometimes strike me not as if they wanted to help formulate something clearly, but as if they wanted only to show us physicists how much brighter they are than we." He also joked, "Since the mathematicians have attacked [i.e., reformulated] the relativity theory, I myself no longer understand it any more." Johnstone 23:17, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

True enough. He used math to the extent that all physicists do, not the sort of abstract math that mathematicians do. 67.68.253.204

Another person who helped Einstein with mathematics was his friend Marcel Grossman. -- Miguel Thu Feb 19 05:55 GMT 2004

It's "misleading" to not call Einstien a physicicist and mathematician. "He undoubtedly had a mastery of mathematics". JDR

Reddi, by your definition, which theoretical physicists would not be mathematicians? Every theoretical physicist must have a very strong mastery of math.

Consider the list of branches of mathematics. Mathematicians generally specialize in one or more of those branches. 67.68.253.204 00:44, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The School of Mathematics and Statistics and famousmathematician.com agree that he was a mathematician. JDR

famousmathematician.com says "Primary Occupation: Mathematician", which is simply silly. Please understand I mean Einstein no disrespect. It's just that you'd really have to change the entries for Feynman, Hawking, etc and call them all mathematicians too. 67.68.253.204 01:02, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

School of Mathematics and Statistics is pretty authoritative on math topics. They call him one. famousmathematician probably have reasons that they cite his primary occupation as a Mathematician. If you could find a nice site to refute that he was one, that be a good start ... but, again, the university of St Andrews is pretty tough to argue with. As to the other ones, change 'em (but have a reaons (ie., citation)). JDR

It's not worth arguing over. If you like, Einstein is famous enough to be an "honorary" mathematician.

No citation needed, my background is in physics. Although physics is more strongly grounded in math than any other science, and although theoretical physics has often pioneered new mathematical techniques which mathematicians later make more rigorous, and there is a strong cross-fertilization of ideas back and forth between theoretical physics and math, still... you are effectively claiming that every theoretical physicist should also be considered a mathematician, and that is not how most people in those fields or outside would see it. 67.68.253.204

Every theoretical physicist is a mathematician? Mabey ... especially if they deal with and work in mathematical techniques (not all do; experimentalism is far superior than math IMO ... and those that experiment can still be theoretical physicists)

Not how outside would see it? YMMV on that ... as many do ... and those inside the field do to [see the above reference to the school]

I think what we are discussing is a "exclusive vs inclusive" arguement ... and, as can be been seen from the above links, it's safer to err for the inclusion than the exclusion [though YMMV on it]. Sincerely, JDR

especially if they deal with and work in mathematical techniques (not all do; experimentalism is far superior than math IMO ... and those that experiment can still be theoretical physicists). This makes no sense. Experimentalism is not theoretical physics. There are some extreemly new directions that theoretical physics has taken that don't use math per se, but Einstein was involved in none of them, nor were they even around in his time. As far as Einstein is concerned, the term theoretical physicist implies someone who uses math. But just because you use math does not make you a mathmatition. Everyone uses math, you use it to balance your checkbook, or to figure out how long your drive to work is going to take, that doesn't make you a mathmatition. That fact is fairly obvious and I don't see that it changes simply because the math in question is harder. --Starx 15:35, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

My quick search of several other encyclopedias revealed that none of them referred to Einstein as a "mathematician":

Encyclopedia Britannica calls him a "German-American physicist"

Encarta.msn.com, a "German-born American physicist and Nobel laureate"

Encyclopedia.com, an "American theoretical physicist"

Columbia Encyclopedia, an "American theoretical physicist"

Just because some mathematicians wish to claim one of the greatest intellects in history as one of their own doesn't mean that everyone has to play along if its not accurate. A mathematician, according to Merriam-Webster's, is "a specialist or expert in mathematics". Einstein did not specialize in math, and he was not considered an expert, as evidenced by the quotes in my original posting at the top of this section.

If he had a degree in mathematics, or had published groundbreaking research papers that dealt exclusively with math, and not problems in physics that happened to require math, then he could legitimately be called a "mathematician". Johnstone 01:23, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree (see my comments earlier).

Reddi, look at it this way. Einstein won the Nobel prize in physics. Would he have been a candidate to win the Fields medal, which is the equivalent in math? The answer is no... it wasn't his field (pun intended). 67.70.52.148 01:35, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The answer is no, but not for your incorrect reason. Edward Witten is widely considered a theoretical physicist, but he won the Fields medal. So being a physicist does not disqualify you as long as you make significant mathematical contributions. The first Fields Medal was awarded in 1936, and at that late date, Einstein would not have been young enough -- there is an age requirement. Of course, this is only a tangent and not really relevant to the main discussion. --Chan-Ho Suh 08:55, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

The nobel was primarily for experimentation that he did. He was a mathemtician (see citations above and see below by Isomorphic). JDR

While I tend to agree that Einstein was not a mathematician, it is interesting to note that according to Clark's biography, Einstein's doctoral dissertation ran into some difficulty because the initial reviewer believed that the content was more appropriate for an applied mathematics degree. So stating that he was one would not be a terrible error. Isomorphic 02:52, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have searched for the quote in Clark's biography but couldn't find it. Do you recall the page? (It doesn't change my mind, but I am curious to read it nonetheless.)

Here's another way of looking at this issue: In addition to being a physicist, Einstein was also a "pacifist", "philosopher", "sailor", "violinist", and "Zionist", among other things. Would including these in the first sentence of the article acomplish anything other than to muddle it? Johnstone 01:34, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Those are not usually include ... though the profession of physicist and mathematician are. JDR

"Mathematician" is not "usually" included in general encyclopedias (see above). Two of the examples you cite are math sites (which is equivalent to a "sailing" site listing Einstein as a famous person who sailed), or a single article in about.com. Johnstone 02:02, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Though it's generally recognized that he was a mathematician, I hope the intro as now is more suitable to you and others (It still includes the mathematician ref, while not explicitly stating he was such). The general encyclopedias, IMO, are examples that the fact was missed ... something the wikipedia can catch and correct (as is the case in some articles @ wikipedia). But, to sidestep the issue (and foster less flip-flop editing of the article), I think the intro as of now is good to include the information and not refute institutions such as School of Mathematics. Sincerely, JDR

The new wording looks OK to me. I've removed the parentheses because it's an easier read without them. Johnstone 00:56, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I don't have the reference with me. I'll look it up later tonight and give you the page. Anyway, I'm not really pushing to include "mathematician" in the opening. I'm certain Einstein didn't consider himself one. I was just bringing up a relevant bit of historical minutae. Isomorphic 02:14, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Here we go. Fifth paragraph of the section "Swiss Civil Servant" in Clark's biography quotes Alfred Kleiner saying "as the principle achievement of Einstein's work consists of the treatment of differential equations, it is thus of a mathematical nature and belongs to analytical mechanics." The work in question is the Ph.D. thesis. Isomorphic 19:24, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the effort of looking that up. I appreciate it. Johnstone 00:56, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"Mathematician" is needed to describe Einstien's entire scientific career (Relativity being based in equations (and portions of the equations are untested)). JDR

There is not a single branch of physics that is not based on equations.

Expermients are what physics is based off of (math is used for other things; see by some as primary, though it is secondary) .... and A New Kind of Science (book) I think is a recents acknowledgement that math is not what you want physics based off of. JDR

Reddi, you don't seem to grasp what is considered the essential distinction between physicists (or scientists in general) and mathematicians, as far as professionally -- physicists' primary intellectual goal is to understand the laws of nature, to make hypotheses about the physical world that can be tested by experiment, and to organise and conceptualise these conclusions into theories which are not infrequently expressed in terms of mathematics; mathematicians' primary intellectual goal is to understand the laws of mathematical objects, which are independent of experimental "verification", to make hypotheses about these objects and their relations, and to prove these hypotheses by rigorous deductive processes. The most important distinction is proof -- mathematicians are obsessed with the reasons why mathematical claims must be true; scientists (to generalise greatly) usually just care if the mathematics works and helps express their theories. As far as teaching, the thought processes and "indoctrination" (for lack of a better word) that math teachers do is not really the same as science teachers. So, the question is, how much original mathematical research did Einstein do? In other words, did he actually develop the mathematical theories themselves, and prove theorems about them, or did he just use them to solve his problems? I confess, I don't know the exact answer to this question. And I realise the line between mathematician and theoretical physicist is not that clear (many theoretical physicists prove lots of theorems and essentially do math, in the way I described above). I do know that Einstein used tensor calculus, differential geometry, and differential equations, but these were tools that had been around for a while (Riemann's work was a half-century old). Just because some physics professor read his ph.d. thesis, got confused, and said, "it looks like applied math" isn't enough to convince me he was really a mathematician. I believe the 4 encyclopedias quoted above are more accurate not to include this. (Your response that "it just shows they're wrong" is such circular logic I don't need to point this out.) Even if Einstein had some small mathematical output, this achievement pales in comparison to his contributions to physics itself. I would like those who believe Einstein made major accomplishments to mathematics (read carefully, as opposed to "having great mathematical facility" or "a great knowledge of math", any working physicist must have this) to give me specific evidence -- papers that are mathematical in nature, theorems he proved, etc. Quoting the name of a couple websites is lazy. I just don't understand your argument -- if I understand you correctly, it could be argued that ALL physicists are mathematicians, because they use such advanced math, which is absurd. Revolver 04:12, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Though it's generally recognized that he was a mathematician

Maybe among the people you know. Among physicists and mathematicians, this is not true. Almost everyone I know would say that Einstein was a theoretical physicist, but not a mathematician. Revolver 04:34, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have heard that Einstein was often referred to as a mathematician in the popular press in the early 20th century, but that was only because the term "theoretical physicist" was not in wide popular use in the newspapers of the time. Einstein had a good theoretical physicist's grasp of mathematics, but he used it in a theoretical physicist's way, rather than studying it as a subject in itself as a mathematician would; he collaborated with mathematicians such as Grossman to help him with mathematical details. --Matt McIrvin 17:47, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In the professional literature on the history of science that I have seen, Einstein is a physicist, not a mathematician. He worked on physical problems, not mathematical ones. There are some people who did both, such as Henri Poincare. But that means that they published on both subjects. Einstein published on physics. He used a lot of math in his physics, but that doesn't make him a mathematician (it does, however, make him pretty awesome). --Fastfission 20:15, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Einstein's only contribution to mathematics, from what my many math department professors have told me, was a method of expressing sums using subscripts instead of Sigma notation for ease of readability. And that's really just a contribution to the language of mathematics, not to actual mathematical theory.

Don't believe everything you're told. He did more than that. That kind of comment is more a joke in the style mathematicians like to make rather than a serious historical remark. I challenge any of your professors that said that to say it in a public forum as a serious claim. Don't knock Einstein summation either; it's very useful. --Chan-Ho Suh 08:55, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

Zionism again

Restarting the Zionism discussion - what is the source for the idea that Einstein's Zionism waned in his later years? The following three paragraphs are Einstein's own words, from his message declining the Israeli presidency.

"All my life I have dealt with objective matters, hence I lack both the natural aptitude and the experience to deal properly with people and to exercise official functions. For these reasons alone I should be unsuited to fulfill the duties of that high office, even if my advancing age was not making increasing inroads on my strength.

I am the more distressed over these circumstances because my relationship to the Jewish people has become my strongest human bond, ever since I became fully aware of our precarious situation among the nations of the world.

Now that we have lost the man who for so many years, against such great and tragic odds, bore the heavy responsibility of leading us towards political independence [note: I'm pretty sure he means Chaim Weizmann, first president of Israel, who had just died and whose place Einstein was being asked to take,] I hope with all my heart that a successor may be found whose experience and personality will enable him to accept the formidable and responsible task."

I will wait for response before editing, since apparently this is controversial, but I don't think the above paragraphs leave much room for dispute, nor can I find anything else in the Clark biography that suggests that Einstein ever wavered in his support for Israel. I'm not pushing a viewpoint, but I just want the article to reflect the best information available. If anyone has conflicting evidence with a good source, please present it. Isomorphic 23:34, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed by Isomorphic above. I would like to see more evidence that Einstein abandoned the self-professed zionism of his younger days. All I've ever been able to find are his own words stating he was zionist, religionist and nationalist, and only inferences drawn about his "waning" zionism as age supposedly mellowed him. More support or I agree, this bit about his zionism waning should be removed or conditionally phrased to reflect the lack Einstein's own statements to draw upon. - Plautus satire 00:57, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

From earlier material in this page discussion:
in January 1946 Einstein stated: "The State idea is not according to my heart. I cannot understand why it is needed. It is connected with narrow-mindedness and economic obstacles. I believe that it is bad. I have always been against it. He went further to deride the concept of a Jewish commonwealth as an "imitation of Europe, the end of which was brought about by nationalism."

You make an excellent case using Einstein's words that he changed his mind and lied by claiming he had never supported the state of Israel, but this only tangentally addresses the issue of his zionism. A casual reader may not be aware of the minimal associations between zionism and nationalism, maybe add a brief clause about that relation to slightly soften his perceived zionism with age. Yes, no? - Plautus satire 03:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In his 1950 book, Out of My Later Years, he said: "I should much rather see a reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from practical considerations, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain."

The message declining the presidency required diplomacy and tact, to do otherwise would risk offense. But Einstein strongly opposed nationalism in any form and subscribed to a universalist philosophy and was not particularly pious or religious. It may be that he supported Zionism as a religious concept but had considerable difficulty when the situation turned into an armed conflict between nations. Declining the presidency of Israel was a consequence of his universalist views. Curps 02:51, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Interesting that you provide no quotes here. And what do you make of his early (around 1900) claims that he was a religionist? What do you suppose he meant by "religionist"? He stated he wasn't a racial jew but a religious jew. - Plautus satire 03:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"Zionism" is a very loaded word today, in the context of 50 years of bitter armed conflict between nations and peoples. It did not have the same polarizing connotations back in the 1920s as a utopian religious concept, probably many Zionists back then hoped for some kind of peaceful accomodation with Arab populations. Today it implies Israeli nationalism and Einstein strongly opposed any form of nationalism.

Maybe you should petition to have the word zionism stricken from the entry as inflammatory. It's been done before with "conspiracy theory". - Plautus satire 03:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Tangental question to satisfy my nagging curiosity: Which side is the "nation" and which side is the "people"? - Plautus satire 03:26, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The political views section should be kept short, since this is only incidental to his scientific accomplishments which take up the bulk of this article. So no more than one short paragraph each should be given to pacifism, socialism, nuclear disarmament, or Zionism. And any Zionism paragraph must present the right balance. Curps 03:14, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In my opinion if we don't have Einstein's words what we have is speculation. Any quotes from him that support speculation about his beliefs should be highlighted, speculation and deduction based on personal prejudice should be avoided entirely. - Plautus satire 03:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Einstein also apparently wrote a letter to the Palestinian Arab Newspaper Falastin on January 28, 1930, in which he wrote:

"One who, like myself, has cherished for many years the conviction that the humanity of the future must be built up on an intimate community of the nations, and that aggressive nationalism must be conquered, can see a future for Palestine only on the basis of peaceful cooperation between the two peoples who are at home in the country."

This was back in 1930, in his younger days. The word "Zionism" clearly meant something different to Einstein back then (Jewish settlement of Palestine with both Jews and Arabs living there) than it does to us today (state of Israel), which is why it is fairly unhelpful and potentially polarizing to even include a section on Zionism at all. Curps 03:39, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree this should go in there, but not at the expense of his earlier statements, as long as no reasonable (relevant and non-redundant) quotes are specifically omitted I can't think of any issues I have here. Of course I can not speak for everyone. As a side note, Curps, I hope you see I am not bearing you any grudge. If I criticize you it's because I feel I have a valid criticism. In this case I think you did fine research, as I for one have never seen those words of Einstein before. Well done. - Plautus satire 03:51, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your reference, Curps. I don't think Einstein's Zionism was motivated by any religious feelings, or from any great respect for the Jewish religion. As you say, Einstein was not a practicing Jew, and from what I know his personal religious beliefs are more like deism or pantheism. Again in his own words, "nor is there anything in me which could be called 'Jewish faith.'" After further reading, it seems to me that his support was for Judaism as a cultural and ethnic identity, and for Israel as a focus for Jewish cultural and ethnic awareness, not for Israel as a nation-state.

Regardless of how the issue of Einstein's Zionism is eventually treated, I think there needs to be a bit more focus on his pacifism, which was at least as fundamental to his outlook. Also, I disagree that his politics are less important than his scientific work. Einstein produced very little of scientific significance after General Relativity, but he was a very visible public figure until his death. Isomorphic 04:13, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

gibberish

This is gibberish

The idea later proved invaluable for understanding how the Big Bang, which was a pure burst of energy, could lead to the precipitation of a universe filled with matter (it turns out that the energy required to create the matter is exactly offset by the negative potential energy of the universe's gravitational well).

I'm not sure this is true....

Even after experiments showed that Einstein's equations for the photoelectric effect were accurate, his explanation was not universally accepted. In 1922, when he was awarded the Nobel Prize, and his work on photoelectricity was mentioned by name, most physicists thought that, while the equation was correct, light quanta were impossible.

Roadrunner 11:28, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I don't know about the top (may be related to the recent news) .... but the bottom can be changed (and I did). IIRC, his initial equations were not acccepted. Later, they were .... [BTW, it wasn't for the equations that he got the Nobel, it was the experiment to show it ... (the PE experiment and "other contributions", more precisely)]. Sincerely, JDR 12:48, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

trip to Japan

What is the relevance of Einstein's trip to Japan? Did something significant take place? Is it especially memorable for some reason (eg, first trip by a Nobel laureate to Japan? I doubt it). Otherwise it's too trivial to include. Curps 03:14, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Pantheist?

Just noticed that a link to List of Pantheists was added and removed. From what I know of Einstein's religion, it's probably misleading to associate him with any organized religion or philosophy. I remember reading a quote somewhere to the effect that noone else means quite what Einstein meant when he said "God." Isomorphic 05:41, 5 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I had him on a list of pantheists, but it appears that only obscure pantheist organizations call him a pantheist. If anyone knows something substantial or verifiable on the subject, that would be great, but otherwise I'll leave him out, due to obvious objections from certain parties Sam Spade 06:17, 5 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Beyond that, normal convention is not to link to have items on lists link to the lists. There are just too many weird lists on Wikipedia to have them link back, and so the lists are usually only linked to from general articles on the subject. So Pantheism should link to List of Pantheists, but the article for a given pantheist should not.

Also, is it properly Pantheist or pantheist? Because if it's properly lowercase, then the article should be moved to List of pantheists. Snowspinner 15:01, 5 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Did Einstein speak in English or German or both languages ? How fluent was his English ? Jay 17:33, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Albert Einstein as a trademark

"This popularity has also lead to a widespread use of Einstein in advertisement and merchandising, eventually including the registration of Albert Einstein™ as a trademark."

Is that accurate? Could we have some more information on that? --Tothebarricades.tk 05:17, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Already provided. Brutannica 06:01, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't notice that section. I'm so dumb sometimes... :P --Tothebarricades.tk 06:23, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Copyright status of the images in this article

The main image Image:Albert Einstein.jpg has no copyright info, Image:Einstein patentoffice.jpg is under fairuse, Image:Einstein2.jpg is in the public domain and Image:Einstongue.jpg is presumably fairuse as well though detailed info is provided.

Only one of them specifies a source, this needs to be fixed. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 09:55, 2004 Aug 29 (UTC)

Here's an idea: contact CalTech and see if they will approve of using some of their Einstein images under Fair Use. Out of all places I bet they'd be the most receptive to this idea (more so than a private company). They have a ton of GREAT Einstein pictures: http://archives.caltech.edu/photoNet.html --Fastfission 02:40, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, Image:Einstein patentoffice.jpg is actually in the public domain. I've asked the uploader of Image:Albert Einstein.jpg to supply the source and licensing info; alternatively, this could be replaced by either Image:Karsh Einstein.jpg or the larger version of the same, Image:Albert Einstein by Yousuf Karsh.jpg, which is in the public domain, too. remains the "tongue" picture. Lupo 09:52, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and Image:Einstein2.jpg was not PD, it was a copyrighted Magnum photo which I have just deleted for that reason (and also because we do have PD replacements for it). Lupo 12:52, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Time for featured-article status?

It seems an obvious choice, but apparently this article has not been nominated as a Featured article candidate. Would someone like to do the honors? - dcljr 04:58, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Mmm... I dunno. I always thought it could use more on Einstein's personality and political views (although those sections might have been fleshed out by now), and some of the science stuff might be a little too complicated. Brutannica 07:52, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I nominated the article now. --ThomasK 05:20, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

Light bent by gravity

In the section Albert Einstein#General_relativity, it says:

...when it was tested by measuring how much the sun's rays were bent by gravity during a solar eclipse, ...

That doesn't make sense. If I recall that experiment correctly, it was measured by how much the light emanating from a star "behind" the sun was bent by the sun's gravity. The experiment was made during a solar eclipse because a star behind or very close (in line-of-sight) to the sun would otherwise not be visible at all. The findings from that experiment matched the predictions made by the theory. Somebody can explain "behind" better than me, I'm sure. Lupo 10:51, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

My apologies... I can't recall my source. Brutannica 02:01, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

BTW, do we have an article on this experiment somewhere? It was a milestone that certainly deserves coverage, and with a diagram, the whole thing becomes much easier to explain, too. Lupo 11:01, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The best I found was gravitational lens... I've corrected the article. Lupo 11:16, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Am I mistaken, or was Einstein not posted to Prague at some point before Berlin? User:sca

(William M. Connolley 21:06, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)) Yes. Though "posted" is the wrong word. He was offered a prof-ship there.

Also the article says: "Einstein settled in Berlin as professor at the local university." There are 4 universities in Berlin so the phrasing is vague, if not inacurrate. I feel some details should be added on the Prague-Berlin period. --128.12.193.8 09:09, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Disliking "Time mags person of the century"

(William M. Connolley 21:06, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)) I dislike the text under the photo: "Time mags person of the century"... since he is so much more important than time mag, and their judgement of scientific matters is irrelevant, it seems rather demeaning. There must be a better scientific quote to put in.

Criticism and allegations of plagiarism

I have removed the following additions:

The name "Einstein" evokes images of genius, but some critics have claimed that he was a plagiarist, who allegedly infringed on previous theories of Lorentz, Poincare, Gerber, and Hilbert. One critic, Christopher Jon Bjerknes, documented what he saw as plagiarism in the work titled "Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist". Bjerknes see some of Einstein's work as not properly acknowledging his contemporaries, in addition to providing formal logical argument demonstrating that Einstein could not have drawn the conclusions he claimed to have drawn without prior knowlege of the works he referenced, but did not cite nor credit. Numerous quotations from Einstein's contemporaries are also included to support the notion that Einstein's infringements had indeed been noticed. Others disagree with Bjerknes.

Christopher J. Bjerknes (2002). Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist. ISBN 0-971-96298-7

The reasons I have removed them are 1) this book is not taken seriously by ANY mainstream historians of science or physicists and in the few respectable places it has actually been reviewed it has been denounced as pure rubbish [5]; 2) from my looking at selections of it online, I think it is pure rubbish and not worthy of a paragraph on the Wikipedia article -- the author obviously has no idea about the history of Einstein's relativity nor the historiography of priority disputes, much less the differences between Einstein and Poincaré and Lorentz, which are significant, and cites criticisms from members of the Nazi Deutsche Physik movement as evidence against Einstein which is either very sloppy or horribly offensive; 3) the book in question was published by a vanity press and has not received enough mainstream attention to make it or its claims encyclopedic. The section is incredibly POV, of course ("Others disagree" and "some critics" makes it sound like this is actually a widely supported view, which it is not), but that could be changed. In trying to make it NPOV, I had the feeling that it really oughtn't even bother being part of this article in the first place. If someone wants to disagree with my decision, though, I'm open to talking about it, of course. --Fastfission 04:18, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I might also note that the justification that Bjerknes gives for all other mainstream scientists and historians from not realizing this sooner or agreeing with him, if I recall, is because they're all part of the big Einstein sham conspiracy (personally, I get a payoff of about $100 a month to keep my mouth shut). It is classic conspiracy theory nonsense. --Fastfission 04:20, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I would also like to note that the only reason I can think of to include this sort of information is if this conspiracy theory nonsense is widespread enough to be considered encyclopedic. I don't think it is, it has attracted little attention even on the internet much less in mainstream press. However if someone has a different feeling for this I'd be happy to hear it. I only know about it because one of my friends stumbled across it and sent me the link a long time back, it is not something that historians of Einstein are even generally cognisant of, much less the general public. --Fastfission 04:25, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I concur. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a site dedicated to cataloguing, promoting, or debunking fringe theories. There is someone out there with a fringe theory on virtually anything, and Wikipedia's usefulness would diminish if we tried to acknowledge all of them. Isomorphic 16:20, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

- I of course agree, and I would like to also say that the Salon link at the bottom recently added about the question is probably all that needs to be said on it, it is a well-done article in my assessment. --Fastfission 17:46, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

- Concerning the Olinto de Tretto use of E=mc2 before Einstein. This is not "really" true and certainly not accepted by mainstream science. All the history about Olinto de Pretto and the equivalence mass-energy comes after an italian book written in 1999 by italian Umberto Barocci. A link to the portrait of the book is given here: [6]. The Olinto de Pretto article can be found here [7] (only italian). The article speaks about kinetic energy of luminifereous ether and says that in order to be efficient medium for light to travel ether should vibrate at speeds faster than the light speed and so particles in the ether would have energy on the order of mv^2 with v greater than c. (The paper is one of those theory of everything where the author explains the heat of the Sun the orbits of the planets and the formation of the Solar system. Mass-equivalence is only read by Bartocci) This is by no means any thing related to the energy-mass equivalence. In Italy some media have acclamed Olinto de Pretto as author of the equation but scientist seem not to agree [8]. In fact, Olinto de Pretto is advocated by "extreme right" antisemitist groups to criticize Einstein as it can be seen here [9] and its main link together with a hundred more sites. Wricardoh 21:54 5 dic 2004.

Moved from article

I removed the following unsourced recent addition from the article:

A more recent theory is that he suffered from Asperger's syndrome, a disorder related to autism.

Unless the author can provide external sources for this "theory" and show that it is not yet another fringe theory, this has no place in the article. Lupo 08:09, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How about take a look at the Asperger's syndrome page. There is certainly a reference there. I've seen it referenced in quite a few publications. AFAIK, any published theory does have a place in this article. --Thoric 14:27, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

BBC News article

Suggest 34 possible wiki links and 13 possible backlinks for Albert Einstein.

An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Albert_Einstein article:

Can link popular culture: ...ame exceeded that of any other scientist in history, and in popular culture, ''Einstein'' has become synonymous with someone of very hi...
Can link elementary school: ... was Jewish (and non-observant); Albert attended a Catholic elementary school and, at the insistence of his mother, was given [[violin]] ... (link to section)
Can link slow learner: ...]]s and [[mechanical device]]s for fun, he was considered a slow learner, possibly due to [[dyslexia]], simple shyness, or the stron... (link to section)
Can link liberal arts: ...f and then joined his family in Pavia.) His failure of the liberal arts portion of the ''[[Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule]]''... (link to section)
Can link secondary school: ... sent by his family to [[Aarau]], [[Switzerland]] to finish secondary school, and received his diploma in [[1896]]. Einstein subsequent... (link to section)
Can link modern physics: ...ear, he wrote four articles that provided the foundation of modern physics, without much [[scientific literature]] to refer to or many... (link to section)
Can link Nobel prizes: ...hotoelectric effect]], and [[special relativity]]) deserved Nobel prizes. Only the photoelectric effect would win. This is something... (link to section)
Can link The International: ...bilis Papers]]''" (from [[Latin]]: ''Extraordinary Year''). The International Union of Pure and Applied Physics ([[IUPAP]]) has planned t... (link to section)
Can link empirical evidence: ...ory explanation decades after being observed—provided empirical evidence for the reality of [[atom]]s. It also lent credence to stat... (link to section)
Can link physical systems: ...y, the assumption of [[infinite divisibility]] of energy in physical systems. Even after experiments showed that Einstein's equations fo... (link to section)
Can link Einstein's equations: ...rgy in physical systems. Even after experiments showed that Einstein's equations for the photoelectric effect were accurate, his explanation... (link to section)
Can link light waves: ...e the [[Michelson-Morley experiment]], which had shown that light waves could not be travelling through any [[luminiferous aether|m... (link to section)
Can link atomic nuclei: ...uch phenomenal amounts of energy. By measuring the mass of atomic nuclei and dividing them by their atomic number, both of which are... (link to section)
Can link atomic number: ...suring the mass of atomic nuclei and dividing them by their atomic number, both of which are easily measured, one can calculate the b... (link to section)
Can link binding energy: ...r, both of which are easily measured, one can calculate the binding energy which is trapped in different atomic nuclei. This allows o... (link to section)
Can link Berne, Switzerland: ...xaminer second class. In [[1908]], Einstein was licensed in Berne, Switzerland, as a teacher and lecturer (known as a ''Privatdozent''), w... (link to section)
Can link nervous breakdown: ...nd had nursed him to health after he had suffered a partial nervous breakdown combined with a severe stomach ailment. There were no child... (link to section)
Can link Kaiser Wilhelm Institute: ...eories. From [[1914]] to [[1933]] he served as director of Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics in Berlin, and it was during this time he recei... (link to section)
Can link Academy of Sciences: ...Einstein presented a series of lectures before the Prussian Academy of Sciences in which he described his theory of [[general relativity]].... (link to section)
Can link Newton's law: ...climaxed with his introduction of an equation that replaced Newton's law of gravity. This theory considered all observers to be equi... (link to section)
Can link skepticism: ... with experimentation or observation, leading scientists to skepticism. But his equations enabled predictions and tests to be made... (link to section)
Can link scientific community: ...There were, however, many who were still unconvinced in the scientific community. Their reasons varied, ranging from those who disagreed wit... (link to section)
Can link absolute frame of reference: ...xperiments to those who simply thought that life without an absolute frame of reference was intolerable. In Einstein's view, many of them simply co... (link to section)
Can link the real thing: ...rtainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any cl... (link to section)
Can link refrigeration cycle: ...instein and Leó Szilárd. The patent covered a thermodynamic refrigeration cycle providing cooling with no moving parts, at a constant [[pre... (link to section)
Can link space-time continuum: ...anics. Einstein assumed a structure of a four-dimensional space-time continuum expressed in axioms represented by five component vectors. ... (link to section)
Can link subatomic particles: ... the energy density are particularly high. Einstein treated subatomic particles in this research as objects embedded in the unified field, ... (link to section)
Can link unified field: ...tomic particles in this research as objects embedded in the unified field, influencing it and existing as an essential constituent of... (link to section)
Can link variational principle: ...rched a way to delineate the equations to be derived from a variational principle.... (link to section)
Can link forms of government: ...khoels]] and Einstein in 1943]] Einstein opposed tyrannical forms of government, and for this reason (and his Jewish background), he oppose... (link to section)
Can link nationalism: ...o which Einstein bequeathed his papers. However he opposed nationalism and expressed skepticism about whether a Jewish nation-stat... (link to section)
Can link nation-state: ...nationalism and expressed skepticism about whether a Jewish nation-state was the best solution. He may have originally imagined Jew... (link to section)
Can link nuclear tests: ...Albert Schweitzer]] and [[Bertrand Russell]] fought against nuclear tests and bombs. With the [[Pugwash Conferences on Science and W... (link to section)
Can link Australian film: ...ientist displaying a moment of humor. [[Yahoo Serious]], an Australian film maker, used the photo as an inspiration for the intentional... (link to section)

Additionally, there are some other articles which may be able to linked to this one (also known as "backlinks"):

In Conscription, can backlink Albert Einstein: ... is just one more proof of its debilitating influence"'' by Albert Einstein, Sigmund Freud, H.G. Wells, Bertrand Russell and Thomas Man...
In Dylan Thomas, can backlink Albert Einstein: .... He appears along with Marilyn Monroe, Elvis Presley and Albert Einstein all on probably the best known of all record sleeves, the B...
In Avogadro's number, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...d to the [[equivalence of matter and energy]] discovered by Albert Einstein as part of the theory of [[special relativity]]. When an a...
In Einstein on socialism, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...http://www.monthlyreview.org/598einst.htm Why socialism?] - Albert Einstein, ''Monthly review, 1949-05'' ([http://www.amnh.org/exhibiti...
In [[Jacqueline du Pr%E9#The significance of du Pré's position among cellists|Jacqueline du Pré]], can backlink Albert Einstein: ... interpretations. Let us not forget the words of the great Albert Einstein, "Great spirits have always been met with violent oppositio...
In Diffuse sky radiation, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...ficult to observe because of the glare of the sun. In 1911 Albert Einstein published an article in which he showed that the real expla...
In National Air and Space Museum, can backlink Albert Einstein: ... and other artifacts, there is an [[IMAX]] theater and the Albert Einstein [[Planetarium]]....
In Fotini Markopoulou-Kalamara, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...ew Jersey. Previous postdoctoral positions were held at the Albert Einstein Institute, Imperial College London, and Penn State Universi...
In List of hospitals in Pennsylvania, can backlink Albert Einstein: ... Hospital * [[Philadelphia, Pennsylvania|Philadelphia]] ** Albert Einstein Healthcare ...
In Prolixity, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...ing upon context. == Concise language == By some accounts, Albert Einstein once said: "Make everything as simple as possible, but not ...
In Raymond U. Lemieux, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...Canadian) (1990) * NSERC Gold Medal in Science ([[1991]]) * Albert Einstein World Award in Science ([[1992]])...
In The Majestic Documents, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...ident said on the issue. Various important people's such as Albert Einstein and Ronald Regan's signatures have been found on these docu...
In Last Son of Krypton, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...Luthor]] must join forces to retrieve a document written by Albert Einstein and stop the alien ruler. The story is considered a classic...

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right.
Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:35, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Catagories

Could we please leave Einstein in the Category physicists? The fact that is is a subcategory of some other category is - to me - less important then the fact that the category of physicists will be imcomplete without him (and without the other Nobel prize winners). If someone is browsing through the physicists category, they might not think (or want) to look for and check out related categories. If we drop out all of the physicists who appear in other sub-categories, there will not be much left in the physicists category, which will make it far less useful. Michael L. Kaufman 02:12, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

I totally agree. I was looking for him in the list of physicists, and I couldn't understand why there was not one of the most know physicists in the world! Nova77 06:47, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

he was also (as sorry as I am to say this:) not Swiss but German (native of Ulm). The categorization should be changed accordingly. dab (ᛏ) 10:16, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, but he did renounce his German citizenship and kept his Swiss citzenship. Is "German" supposed to mean his birth location or his "nationality"? I think such distinctions are somewhat petty anyway, though. I'm fairly sure that Einstein wouldn't have been liked to be listed as being any particular nationality, and certainly not German, but anyway, he's not here so I guess it's not up to him. --Fastfission 21:37, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If we list him under either national category, I'd list him under both. If I remember correctly, he didn't consider himself a German if he could help it. Isomorphic 18:25, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, if we're going to talk about citizenship, wasn't he also granted American citizenship? I'm fairly sure. Why not put him under all three catergories? And if we're going to argue about where he would've wanted us to place him, I have no input on the subject except this quote from him: "If relativity is proved right the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss will call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist. If relativity is proved wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German and the Germans will call me a Jew." Clearly, he realized that many nations would claim him as their own, and that his nationality was ambiguous. Just place him under Germany, where he was born, and don't try to predict what Einstein would want. We're not mentally equipped for that. Saraneth 17:25, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Which son?

Near the end of the article, I read that one of Einstein's sons was hospitalized for schizophrenia and later died in an asylum, and the other moved to California. Unfortunately, the article never specifies which son is which. Could someone please clarify? Thanks a bunch! --Saraneth 03:15, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hans Albert Einstein did not die in an asylum and was an accomplished professor of hydraulic engineering at Berkeley until his death in 1973. So maybe he is the one who goes to California (he certainly didn't die in an asylum). --Fastfission 04:22, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

While copyediting I added some information to that effect. Thanks for the heads-up! Steven Luo 09:15, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

FBI File

Great article. But when did they create and keep the FBI file? Needs to be more specific, and obviously the fact he got citizenship should make some reference to it. :ChrisG 22:33, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The file itself looks like it began taking in submissions from at least 1932 when Einstein applied for a visa to the USA. But I haven't yet found anything more specific... (boy, it's one hateful little file) --Fastfission 22:51, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Plagiarism"

Though it's been discussed many times before, this is a place where our anonymous friend can justify trying to add three pages of bad history to a pretty good entry. All of the people cited hold fringe opinions, no mainstream historian finds their arguments plausible, none have published in peer-reviewed publications, almost all seem to lack understanding of the ways in which Einstein's formulations differed from those who he drew on (Lorentz, Poincaré, etc.), and most of them have no sense about using historical sources (i.e. use propaganda published by the Deutsche Physik physicists as reliable sources). This is not new, and Wikipedia should not be a dump for every looney accusation, especially ones which date back to the worst extremes of German nationalism during World War II. No Einstein scholar gives this sort of stuff a moment of attention, despite the fact that it would be quite a coup to be able to prove conclusively (or even indicate suggestively) that Einstein was a plagiarist. --Fastfission 01:48, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Recent reverts on edits about Einstein's alleged plagiarism

An anonymous editor is currently trying to edit the article with very POV additions. These additions allege that Einstein was a plagiarist, ripping off both the general and special theories of relativity. First, for those that do not know about this matter, these allegations have been long debunked and shown to be groundless. As evidence, I suggest anyone doubting this just do a google search under Bjerknes and Einstein. Bjerkness is a self-published author who wrote a book alleging Einstein was a plagiarist. I easily found this review of his book, on the first page of hits: [10], which decisively takes apart the book. Cecil recently debunked this on the Straight Dope. There are many more results you can find like this.

Basically, Bjerknes is a crank and his theory and "research" is highly crankish and of no merit. There is not one respectable historian that believes any of this. I challenge the anon to produce one recognized authority supporting his/her edits.

I also suspect that the anon is really Christopher Bjerknes. Bjerknes has been very energetic in promoting his crank views on usenet, in particular sci.physics.relativity. He is not at all interested in correcting his views or learning of his mistakes (the true sign of a crank). This anon seems to have the same affliction.

I think there may be a place for the mention of theories like Bjerknes's, but only a small place, and it must mention that it is a fringe theory that has been debunked by serious scholars.

It may be that we may have to get the page protected or ban the anon. --Chan-Ho 02:06, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

Censorship redressed

My words have been snipped but not refuted. A. A. Logunov has cited Bjerknes's work in one of the finest physics journals in the world:

http://data.ufn.ru//ufn04/ufn04_6/Russian/r046e.pdf

http://xxx.arxiv.cornell.edu/PS_cache/physics/pdf/0405/0405075.pdf

Firstly, please sign your contributions to talk pages by writing four tildes like this ~~~~.

Secondly, the citation above (Cornell Uni) Cites Bjerknes's work solely for the purpose of disproving the theory that Hilbert copied the Gravitational Field Equations from Einstein. If you read to the end of the paper that you yourself cited, you will find the conclusion: "All is absolutely clear: both authors [Einstein and Hilbert] made everything to immortalize their names in the title of the Gravitational Field Equations. But General Relativity is Einstein's theory".

I think that concludes the argument. DJ Clayworth 02:33, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Bjerknes's work was cited in one of the finest physics journals in the world by A. A. Logunov, who was Vice President of the Russian Academy of Sciences. It was also cited in Zeitschrift fur Naturforschung:

http://www.physics.unr.edu/faculty/winterberg/Hilbert-Einstein.pdf

Since you do not deny those facts, you have no argument with what I wrote. If you want to trade quotes, here's one from Jurgen Renn:

"I had personally come to the conclusion that Einstein plagiarized Hilbert[.] [The] conclusion is almost unavoidable, that Einstein must have copied from Hilbert."

Renn was quoted by Curt Suplee in his newspaper article "Researchers Definitively Rule Einstein Did Not Plagiarize Relativity Theory" The Washington Post (November 14, 1997): A24. Since Logunov, Winterberg and Bjerknes have proven that Renn's revisionism is flawed, I agree with Renn that the conclusion is that Einstein was a plagiarist.

We deny your "facts" and have plenty of "argument" with what you wrote. Just be aware of Wikipedia:Three revert rule.

How do I link the "Einstein" page to identify it as a disputed page which does not present a neutral point of view? What is the effect of doing so? If I so designate it, will others be able to remove the designation?

You can link it however you want, but others can remove the designation. Neutral does not mean "crank". You won't win on this one, sorry, Wikipedia is not a place for conspiracy theories passed off as being respected opinions. --Fastfission 22:15, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Numerous books by Jean Hladik, Anatoly Logunov, Jules Leveugle, Dennis Overbye, Christopher Jon Bjerknes, Andrea Gabor, etc. have in the last couple of decades discussed Einstein's plagiarism. I believe a section on Einstein's Plagiarism should be added to present a more complete history of Einstein, as is appropriate in an Encyclopedia article:

Einstein's Plagiarism

Numerous sources have directly or indirectly accused Albert Einstein of plagiarism. These charges range from Einstein's appropriation of the special theory of relativity through unattributed use of the Lorentz Transformation and Henri Poincare's "principle of relativity" in Einstein's paper 1905 Zur Elektrodynamik bewegter Koerper, to broader accusations of a career long pattern of plagiarism. The latter point of view is taken by Christopher Jon Bjerknes in his books Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist [11] and Anticipations of Einstein in the General Theory of Relativity.[12] Bjerknes points out that the special theory of relativity first appeared in the works of Woldemar Voigt, George Francis Fitzgerald, Joseph Larmor, Hendrik Antoon Lorentz and Henri Poincare.

Einstein was often accused of plagiarism. He did not answer his critics in a responsible fashion and so missed the opportunity to justify his behavior. Other books which provide insights into Einstein's unnamed sources include: E. Whittaker, A History of the Theories of Aether and Electricity; A. A. Logunov, The Theory of Gravity and On the Articles by Henri Poincaré ON THE DYNAMICS OF THE ELECTRON; J. P. Auffray, Einstein et Poincare; J. Leveugle La Relativite, Poincare et Einstein, Planck, Hilbert: Histoire veridique de la Theorie de la Relativite; J. Hladik, Comment le jeune et ambitieux Einstein s'est approprie la Relativite restreinte de Poincare; J. Mehra, Einstein, Hilbert, and the Theory of Gravitation.

Jules Henri Poincare

Anatoly Alexeivich Logunov has proven the priority and the superiority of Poincare's formulation of the special theory of relativity over Einstein's later and less sophisticated work. [13] Poincare pioneered the concept of synchronizing clocks with light signals in his articles and lectures La Mesure du Temps (1898), La Theorie de Lorentz at le Principe de Reaction (1900) and The Principles of Mathematical Physics (1904). Einstein copied this method without giving Poincare credit for the innovation. Poincare stated the principle of relativity in 1895, and in 1905 stated the group properties of the Lorentz Transformation. It was Poincare, not Einstein, who introduced four-dimensional space-time into the theory of relativity. At first, Einstein did not approve of the idea. Einstein learned the formula E mc^2 from Poincare's 1900 paper.

The General Theory of Relativity

Tilman Sauer, [14] Bjerknes,[15] Logunov [16] and Friedwardt Winterberg [17] have shown that David Hilbert derived the generally covariant field equations of gravitation in the general theory of relativity before Einstein. Bjerknes and Winterberg claim that Paul Gerber published the same formula for the perihelion motion of Mercury in 1898, that Einstein published in 1915 without an attribution. Bjerknes also points out that Johann Goerg von Soldner predicted that starlight grazing the limb of the Sun would be deflected by the gravitational field of the Sun, in 1801, more than one hundred years before Einstein. D. E. Burlankov has shown that Niels Bjorn and Sophus Lie derived many of the fundamental formulas of the general theory of relativity years before Einstein. [18]

Mileva Maric

Desanka Trbuhovic-Gjuric (Im Schatten Albert Einsteins), Evan Harris Walker (Physics Today 42 9, 11 (February, 1989); Physics Today 44 122-124 (February, 1991).), Margarete Maurer [19], Senta Troemel Ploetz (Women's Studies International Forum Volume 13, Number 5, (1990), pp. 415-432; Index on Censorship 19 33-36 (October, 1990).), Christopher Jon Bjerknes [20], and others [21] believe that Einstein's first wife, Mileva Maric (aka Marity), collaborated with him on his 1905 papers, or wrote them herself. Abram Joffe (Uspekhi fizicheskikh nauk 57 187 (1955)), who had seen the original manuscripts, stated that the author of these papers was "Einstein-Marity" and Mileva Maric used this name, but Albert Einstein did not. Daniil Semenovich Danin (Neizbezhnost strannogo mira (1962), p. 57) claimed that the papers were signed "Einstein-Marity" or "Einstein-Maric". Albert wrote to Mileva and asked her to collaborate with him, in the context of Lorentz's theory, which they copied in 1905. He wrote to her about "our work on relative motion".

Einstein's "Miracle Year"

Einstein's so-called "miracle year" is not so miraculous as one would think from looking at his papers, which lacked adequate references. The special theory of relativity was first published by Lorentz and Poincare, and Poincare created the modern four-dimensional form of the theory before Einstein. The theory of the photo-electric effect draws a great deal from Newton, Planck, Wien, and others. The theory of Brownian motion was anticipated by Robert Brown, Gouy, Nernst, Smoluchowski, Sutherland and Bachelier.

I would like to discuss this issue in a civil and responsible fashion. How do I complain when others fail to act in civil manner?

I am new to this and would like to report the fact that an NPOV link was removed while a discussion was taking place. How do I do so? I understand that Wikipedia requests that I not respond to insulting messages, so I will not.

I again ask if someone would be so kind as to inform me as to how I can lodge a complaint?

You can read Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. You should also read the articles in Category:Wikipedia official policy, so that among other things you don't violate the three-revert rule again.

A NPOV link can be removed if it is just one anonymous person against a dozen editors. If you don't plan to actually discuss what people have written about your additions, you will get nowhere on this. I suggest you give up on Wikipedia and turn to alternative outlets for your theories. --Fastfission 23:23, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I should like to point out that Friedwardt Winterberg is a famous physicist who has published hundreds of articles in physics journals. He received his PhD under Nobel Prize laureate Werner Heisenberg. Professor Logunov is one of the most respected physicists in the world and was Vice President of the Russian Academy of Sciences and is today Director of the Institute for High Energy Physics. Jean Hladik has published numerous books on Einstein and relativity and is also highly regarded. Dennis Overbye is a science editor at the New York Times. Whittaker's book are considered masterpieces and are among the most highly respected histories of science ever written. Bjerknes and his work have been favorably cited in the finest physics journals in the world. The documentary Einstein's Wife airs on the Public Broadcasting Network in the United States, which is highly regarded. This is not the place to defend against all the personal attacks made in this discussion, but let it suffice to show that they are false.

You cite names but never demonstrate how they support your theories. For example, Dennis Overbye does NOT support them. He comes to the conclusion that Einstein's wife provided intellectual and emotional support in the form of giving him a conversational and life partner but he never concludes that Einstein took the essential ideas of relativity from her or plagiarized her or anything of that sort. He has written a book called Einstein in Love. Perhaps you should read it.

It is typical of Plautus to quote seemingly impressive references by respected mainstream scientists, or links to mainstream websites, with the claim that these support his opinions. Except when you actually click on the external link or look up the reference, there's nothing there at all to support his opinions. -- Curps 03:36, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I refer you to pages 296 and 297 of Overbye's "Einstein in Love, A Scientific Romance" with regard to Einstein's use of Kretschmann's ideas.

And what is your assertion? I presume you have one to refute what I wrote above about Overbye. Unless these pages contain a statement that Kretschmann's work was plagiarized by Einstein, your reference is pointless. --Chan-Ho 09:13, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

I will have to watch the documentary again to ascertain for certain whether or not Overbye modified his views in it. If he did, then he would be one of those supporting my claim with regard to Mileva. If not, he would not. I have not relied on him with regard to my claims about Mileva. If you think he should be added to the list of those with a different view on this point, then we can add his name, but it would be wise to watch the documentary again. My reference to Overbye regarded Kretschmann, and Overbye shows that Einstein plagiarized Kretschmann's ideas. As you suggested to me, I suggest you read Overbye's book.

There's no need to make a list of those that disagree with your views, because that list is exponentially longer than the list that agrees with even some of your views. That is what "mainstream" and "fringe" is all about. You have claimed there's evidence on certain pages of Einstein's plagiarism. Quote the relevant passage and explain how it shows Einstein plagiarized. --Chan-Ho 13:40, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

"Kretschmann's paper, which appeared in the Annalen der Physik on December 21, 1915, apparently struck a chord with Einstein. By now, of course, the hole argument was an embarrassment, and he was eager for an answer. Five days later Albert wrote back to Ehrenfest, who had been pestering him about the hole problem, with an answer almost identical to Kretschmann's. Space-time points, he said, gain their identity not from coordinates but from what happens at them. The phrase he used was space-time coincidences.'40

'The physically real in the world of events (in contrast to that which is dependent upon the choice of a reference system) consists in spatiotemporal coincidences . . . and in nothing else!' he told Ehrenfest. Reality, he repeated to Besso, was nothing less than the sum of such point coincidences, where, say, the tracks of two electrons or a light ray and a photographic grain crossed.41

In his magnum opus on the new general relativity theory early in March 1916, Albert paralleled Kretschmann almost word for word: 'All our space-time verifications invariably amount to a determination of space-time coincidences. . . . Moreover, the results of our measurings are nothing but verifications of meetings of the material points of our measuring instruments with other material points, coincidences between the hands of a clock and points on the clock dial, and observed point-events happening at the same place at the same time.'42"

Quoted from Dennis Overbye "Einstein in Love: A Scientific Romance" (Viking, 2001): 296-297.

Note "40" Letter from A. Einstein to P. Ehrenfest of December 26, 1915, The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Volume 8, Document 173 (Princeton University Press, 1998): 167.

Note "41" Letter from A. Einstein to M. Besso of January 3, 1916, from John Stachel's contribution "Einstein and the Rigidly Rotating Disk" to D. Howard and J. Stachel Editors, Einstein and the History of General Relativity, Volume 1, (Birkhauser 1989). The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Volume 8, Document 178, (Princeton University Press, 1996): 172.

Note "42" A. Einstein "Die Grundlagen der allgemeinen Relativitatstheorie" Annalen der Physik 49 (1916): 769-822; as reproduced and translated to English in The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Volume 6, Document 30, (Princeton University Press, 1996): 153.

Einstein, immediately after Kretschmann's work appeared, began reiterating it without mentioning Kretschmann.

In addition, Winterberg has explicitly said his analysis cannot prove Einstein copied from Hilbert [22]: (begin quote from Register article) "My analysis of Hilbert's mutilated proofs therefore cannot prove that Einstein copied from Hilbert," he says. "It proves less, which is that it cannot be proved that Einstein could not have copied from Hilbert. But it proves that Hilbert had not copied from Einstein, as it has been insinuated following the paper by Corry, Renn and Stachel." Winterberg concludes that three people should be given credit for developing the general theory of relativity: Einstein, for recognising the shape of the problem, Grossmann for his insight that the contracted Riemann tensor was key to solving the problem, and Hilbert for completing the gravitational field theory equations. (end quote) When I have time I will investigate these other names you have dropped, but I suspect they will not come through for you as you claim.

I suspect his views will change. Time will tell. Since Einstein had seen Hilbert's manuscript before changing his theory, Einstein must have copied Hilbert's ideas. Bjerknes proves this in many ways in his book "Anticipations of Einstein in the General Theory of Relativity." We have as proof: Einstein's letter to Hilbert from November 18, 1915, stating that he had seen Hilbert's manuscript. Einstein's paper on the perihelion motion of Mercury which was submitted November 18, 1915 and which had incorrect gravitational field equations. Einstein's first footnote in that paper. The comments published on page 803 of the journal that published Einstein's paper submitted November 18, 1915. Hilbert's declarations of his priority. Einstein's acknowledgements of Hilbert's priority. The general acceptance by Hilbert's and Einstein's peers that Hilbert had derived the equations before Einstein. Jurgen Renn was right when he said, without his revisionism, the proper conclusion is that Einstein plagiarized Hilbert's work.

As for Einstein's Wife on PBS, they've aired speculative documentaries before, but I agree that if this documentary supported your claims it would indeed be a valid source. Unfortunately for you, this documentary does not conclude that Einstein stole his wife's work; it only raises the possibility and investigates somewhat the idea that Mileva Maric colloborated with her husband. One thing Bjerknes (and you) never explains is how Einstein can have both plagiarized all these famous men and at the same time have stolen the same ideas from his wife. That's a glaring contradiction in your theory.

I suggest you look at

http://home.comcast.net/~xtxinc/mileva.htm

which presents some of the evidence. If the Einsteins were partners, and Mileva approved of the publication of the papers with inadequate references, then both were plagiarists. If Mileva objected to the plagiarism and asked that her name not appear on the published paper, then Albert was the only plagiarist and he plagiarized the already plagiarized work. In other words, Albert may have taken credit for the plagiarized paper, which Mileva may have written or coauthored. That does not make the paper original, but it made Albert famous while Mileva suffered. I do not see a contradiction and I think Bjerknes is consistent. If person X steals or borrows a car from person Y and then person Z steals the same car from X and Y, Z is a thief.

The documentary supports my claims by showing interviews with Evan Harris Walker, Senta Troemel-Ploetz and others who believe that Albert took credit for Mileva's work. Walker has also published articles in Physics Today, which state that Albert took credit for Mileva's work. John Stachel was interviewed in the documentary and published a criticism of Walker's article and he believes that Mileva was just a sounding board for Albert and if you want to mention that we can add it. The fact that the issue is worthy of a section in a encyclopedia article is demonstrated by Women in World History: A Biographical Encyclopedia, Volume 5, "Einstein-Maric, Mileva" (Yorkin Publications, 2000): 77-81, which is an encyclopedia that has addressed the issue.

I said you contradicted yourself because you cite this PBS documentary; it does seem as though Bjerknes is consistent with respect to this issue. This documentary does not support your claim. These people you cite are not saying that Mileva was a co-plagiarist or plagiarized others and had her plagiaristic work stolen by Einstein. They are suggesting the possibility that Einstein stole his wife's original work on relativity, etc. You apparently don't see anything contradictory about propping up your idea that Mileva was a (co)plagiarist with assertions by people who believe that Mileva was not a plagiarist. But I do and I bet I'm not alone. One hallmark of your evidence thus far is that you frequently will cite a part of someone's work to support your case when the rest of that person's work refutes it. By this piecemeal fashion, you have generated quite a bit of "evidence". But I'm far from convinced by that kind of "evidence".

At this point what you're doing is more original research (which is not allowed on Wikipedia) rather than just citing someone who expresses your views. FastFission is correct in asserting that your researched material is not appropriate for Wikipedia. It's one thing to have some appropriate references to fringe theories and researchers but another (unacceptable) thing to do your own research and try to argue your ideas in an encylopedia article. In particular, you should think over why your reverted edits were reverted and what contributions are appropriate with respect to these issues you've raised. --Chan-Ho 09:08, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

There are at least two historical issues involved and it is proper for me to rely upon different experts with regard to different issues. One of the issues is the question of whether or not Albert took credit for Mileva's work. I claim that he did and the PBS documentary supports that claim. Another issue is whether or not the work was plagiarized from another source. It is perfectly consistent and appropriate for me to rely upon other experts to answer that separate and distinct question. In the example of the stolen car, I might rely upon one set of experts to determine if Z's fingerprints were found on it, and another to determine if the engine was original to the car or had been replaced.

Your analogy doesn't fit the situation. If indeed we were discussing a matter where there was a "smoking gun", e.g. fingerprints, same engine, etc., real facts that are undisputable, it would be a good analogy. But we are discussing a situation where you are citing expert opinions (assuming these people are qualifed). These kinds of opinions are not a matter of "here are the fingerprints and this is what I think", rather it is "here are some ambiguous data, I interpret them this way and this way". You only pick the part of the conclusion you like because the expert disagrees with you. Here's your analogy modified to fit the situation: expert A says he saw X steal the car. It is his expert opinion that it is so. As part of his opinion he states that not only did X steal the car, X was accompanied by Y who assisted. Another expert B gives her opinion: X was alone and did not steal the car, but merely walked by. You come along and cite A to demonstrate that X stole the car, and then cite B to demonstrate that X was alone. But the inconsistency here is that if these are indeed experts that you trust, what led you to discard part of their analyses and accept other parts?

In any case, you still don't understand how pointless this is. You're not going to get the page changed in the way you wanted with your edits. You still don't seem to understand why and you still don't seem to understand that at best that there will only be references to figures like Bjerknes's opinions (not yours) and that these references will point out that this is a fringe view. All this discussion has done nothing but demonstrate to everyone else that you're engaging in original research. --Chan-Ho 13:40, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

There is no inconsistency with accepting point 1 made by expert A when the facts indicate that A is correct on point one, and not accepting point 2 made by expert A when the facts indicate that A is incorrect on point two. For example, consider the fact that Overbye cited Renn, Stachel and Corry's paper on Hilbert and Einstein and obviously Overbye was wrong in his conclusions on this point, but that does not mean that everything Overbye ever wrote must be discarded. I gave you a link to some of the facts which lead me to accept the conclusion that Albert took credit for Mileva's work. I gave you a link which led me to accept the conclusion that Poincare published the special theory of relativity before the Einsteins, that they never gave him adequate credit, and that Poincare's theory was superior to theirs. I see no conflict in agreeing with Overbye's book on the point of Kretschmann and disagreeing with it about Mileva Maric. I have proven to you that Albert's plagiarism of Mileva's work is a widely held view that has been published and discussed in mainstream venues. That is what is required for the view to appear in an enclopedia and I have proven to you that the issue has indeed been published in a mainstream enclopedia. I have not said that I want the page changed to my specifications without edits. On the contrary I have welcomed discussion and patiently and politely responded to it. I have invited you to offer changes and the invitation is still open.

One important and valuable point has been raised by this discussion however. There should be some portion of the article devoted to the Hilbert-Einstein controversy. It is indeed a controversy (although perhaps not a great one), but I haven't seen any definitive evidence either way. It should perhaps have its own page as neither the Einstein nor Hilbert articles seem a fitting place for such material. --Chan-Ho 03:17, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you read "Anticipations of Einstein in the General Theory of Relativity." There is much more evidence presented there than in the journal articles. -- 24.15.188.92 04:21, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You keep mentioning Logunov as if he supports your theory. But he does not, as has been pointed out by DJ Clayworth. Indeed, in the paper you cite by Logunov (and two coauthors), it is said: "According to the standard point of view Einstein and Hilbert independently of each other and in different ways, discovered the gravitational field equations." The emphasis is mine and I did it to emphasize that Logunov and coauthors are first off admitting that this is the standard view (cf my comment right above where I was unsure what the consensus over the Hilbert-Einstein situation was).

Next, they actually conclude that the standard view is indeed correct! From the conclusion of their paper:"The analysis, undertaken in Sections 1 and 2, shows that Einstein and Hilbert inependently [sic] discovered the gravitational field equations. Their pathways were different but they led exactly to the same result. Nobody "nostrified" the other...All is absolutely clear: both authors made everything to immortalize their names in the title of the gravitational field equations. (their emphasis) But general relativity is Einstein's theory."

So this famous man you cite in fact disputes plagiarism by both Einstein and Hilbert! Not only that, he cites Bjerknes only to reference some portions of some historical documents. The citation not only proves nothing, but given the content of the paper is clearly only meant to reference these documents and not meant to say the authors agreed with Bjerknes. DJ Clayworth has basically pointed this out, but you seem incapable of understanding these points. You can keep citing famous people whose work do not support your theory as support for your theory, but you're only increasing your reputation of crankhood. All you've proven thus far is that Bjerknes is indeed very much alone in claiming what he does and that there is some controversy over the Hilbert-Einstein business but that the consensus is that Hilbert and Einstein are each given credit. --Chan-Ho 03:57, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

Logunov, and the other authors thank Bjerknes for helpful discussion in addition to citing his book for the publication of the proofs (I believe the citation in the first instance is more than just a reference to the publication of the proofs but also refers to the substantial commentary on the missing section found in Bjerknes's book "Anticipations of Einstein in the General Theory of Relativity." Bjerknes writes about a 2 1/2 page explanation where the missing section is indicated). I understand what Logunov has said, and my reference to his paper was to the fact that he has proven that Renn, Stachel and Corry's revisionism is incorrect. Do you dispute that Logunov has refuted their revisionism? I disagree with Logunov, et al's assertion that Einstein could not have copied from Hilbert, and their assertion simply does not agree with the facts. There most certainly has been a priority dispute, so I disagree with them on that point, also. I have also cited Logunov's book on Poincare in which he proves that Poincare published the special theory of relativity before Einstein. Do you disagree with my conclusion that that is what Logunov has said? Please understand that one aspect of plagiarism is the fact that one person publishes the work before another and when I say that Logunov has discussed Einstein's plagiarism I mean that Logunov has discussed the fact that Poincare anticipated Einstein and that Einstein failed to give Poincare due credit. Do you believe I am mistaken on that point?

The point you're mistaken on is whether or not this belongs on an encyclopedia, which is all that matters here. Your own confusion about historical issues, usage of sources, and the history of physics has no bearing on the fact that this stuff doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. The fact that you are deliberately lumping in people who you know don't share your conclusions only further points out your intellectual dishonesty. --Fastfission 05:39, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Fastfission has twice modified his/her original post to make it increasingly insulting. Wikipedia asks that I not respond to insulting posts, so I will not.

Bjerknes is self-published fringe which is not accepted by any established historians (whom he believes, if I recall, are all on the pro-Einstein dole). Winterberg is an established physicist but not a historian (and is fairly fringe himself, with a lot of ties to the LaRouche cult). These sorts of fringe don't belong in an article on Albert Einstein. If it belongs anywhere on Wikipedia, it belongs in an article specifically on this question (along the lines of Abraham Lincoln's sexuality and Apollo moon landing hoax accusations). In any event, it cannot be done in a way which appears that this is a mainstream view ("Numerous people" != three fringe authors and the wackos who follow them). --Fastfission 02:46, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a website dedicated to expounding, promoting, cataloguing, or debunking fringe theories. Rather, it is a compilation of generally-accepted information. If every article had to devote space to any existing fringe theories regarding its subject, we would greatly decrease our usefulness as an encyclopedia. Isomorphic 23:06, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Getting into a revert war is not a civil and responsible fashion, so you're not quite in a position to start talking about your moral superiority yet. And it's clear you have little discussion in mind when your first urge is to "complain." There is an entire page here now about why people don't want to include this. I'll repeat it for the sake of civility:

Your sources are fringe figures discredited by mainstream scientists and historians.
Your writing takes for granted their truth and shows no evidence of the fact that the "facts" and opinions you cite are not respected by mainstream scientists and historians.
These sections add undue emphasis to what is considered a fringe and unscholarly theory.

As I wrote above, an encyclopedia entry on a figure should not have a fourth of it devoted to a fringe theory. It would be akin to having half of the article on nuclear weapons be devoted to a theory about how they were potentially powered by energy from God's big toe. If the latter crazy theory were popular enough to warrent attention from popular society, so that when one went to an article on nuclear weapons you would expect the Big Toe of God theory to be at least acknowledged, then it could have a separate page created for it (such as Abraham Lincoln's sexuality and Apollo moon landing hoax accusations) so that it would not mar up the main article with a fringe discussion.

Hopefully that will make some of these objections a little more clear. I expect you will discuss this in a civil manner now, right? --Fastfission 23:05, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

@@ Line 695: / Line 695: @@
 :::::::"Kretschmann's paper, which appeared in the Annalen der Physik on December 21, 1915, apparently struck a chord with Einstein. By now, of course, the hole argument was an embarrassment, and he was eager for an answer. Five days later Albert wrote back to Ehrenfest, who had been pestering him about the hole problem, with an answer almost identical to Kretschmann's. Space-time points, he said, gain their identity not from coordinates but from what happens at them. The phrase he used was space-time coincidences.'40
-'The physically real in the world of events (in contrast to that which is dependent upon the choice of a reference system) consists in spatiotemporal coincidences . . . and in nothing else!' he told Ehrenfest. Reality, he repeated to Besso, was nothing less than the sum of such point coincidences, where, say, the tracks of two electrons or a light ray and a photographic grain crossed.41
+:::::::'The physically real in the world of events (in contrast to that which is dependent upon the choice of a reference system) consists in spatiotemporal coincidences . . . and in nothing else!' he told Ehrenfest. Reality, he repeated to Besso, was nothing less than the sum of such point coincidences, where, say, the tracks of two electrons or a light ray and a photographic grain crossed.41
-In his magnum opus on the new general relativity theory early in March 1916, Albert paralleled Kretschmann almost word for word: 'All our space-time verifications invariably amount to a determination of space-time coincidences. . . . Moreover, the results of our measurings are nothing but verifications of meetings of the material points of our measuring instruments with other material points, coincidences between the hands of a clock and points on the clock dial, and observed point-events happening at the same place at the same time.'42"
+:::::::In his magnum opus on the new general relativity theory early in March 1916, Albert paralleled Kretschmann almost word for word: 'All our space-time verifications invariably amount to a determination of space-time coincidences. . . . Moreover, the results of our measurings are nothing but verifications of meetings of the material points of our measuring instruments with other material points, coincidences between the hands of a clock and points on the clock dial, and observed point-events happening at the same place at the same time.'42"
 :::::::Quoted from Dennis Overbye "Einstein in Love: A Scientific Romance" (Viking, 2001): 296-297.
@@ Line 736: / Line 736: @@
 ::::::In any case, you still don't understand how pointless this is.  You're not going to get the page changed in the way you wanted with your edits.  You still don't seem to understand why and you still don't seem to understand that at best that there will only be references to figures like Bjerknes's opinions (not yours) and that these references will point out that this is a fringe view.   All this discussion has done nothing but demonstrate to everyone else that you're engaging in original research.  --[[User:Chan-Ho Suh|Chan-Ho]] 13:40, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)
-:::::::There is no inconsistency with accepting point 1 made by expert A when the facts indicate that A is correct on point one, and not accepting point 2 made by expert A when the facts indicate that A is incorrect on point two. I gave you a link to some of the facts which lead me to accept the conclusion that Albert took credit for Mileva's work. I gave you a link which led me to accept the conclusion that Poincare published the special theory of relativity before the Einsteins, that they never gave him adequate credit, and that Poincare's theory was superior to theirs. I see no conflict in agreeing with Overbye's book on the point of Kretschmann and disagreeing with it about Mileva Maric. I have proven to you that Albert's plagiarism of Mileva's work is a widely held view that has been published and discussed in mainstream venues. That is what is required for the view to appear in an enclopedia and I have proven to you that the issue has indeed been published in a mainstream enclopedia. I have not said that I want the page changed to my specifications without edits. On the contrary I have welcomed discussion and patiently and politely responded to it. I have invited you to offer changes and the invitation is still open.
+:::::::There is no inconsistency with accepting point 1 made by expert A when the facts indicate that A is correct on point one, and not accepting point 2 made by expert A when the facts indicate that A is incorrect on point two. For example, consider the fact that Overbye cited Renn, Stachel and Corry's paper on Hilbert and Einstein and obviously Overbye was wrong in his conclusions on this point, but that does not mean that everything Overbye ever wrote must be discarded. I gave you a link to some of the facts which lead me to accept the conclusion that Albert took credit for Mileva's work. I gave you a link which led me to accept the conclusion that Poincare published the special theory of relativity before the Einsteins, that they never gave him adequate credit, and that Poincare's theory was superior to theirs. I see no conflict in agreeing with Overbye's book on the point of Kretschmann and disagreeing with it about Mileva Maric. I have proven to you that Albert's plagiarism of Mileva's work is a widely held view that has been published and discussed in mainstream venues. That is what is required for the view to appear in an enclopedia and I have proven to you that the issue has indeed been published in a mainstream enclopedia. I have not said that I want the page changed to my specifications without edits. On the contrary I have welcomed discussion and patiently and politely responded to it. I have invited you to offer changes and the invitation is still open.
 ::One important and valuable point has been raised by this discussion however.  There should be some portion of the article devoted to the Hilbert-Einstein controversy.  It is indeed a controversy (although perhaps not a great one), but I haven't seen any definitive evidence either way.  It should perhaps have its own page as neither the Einstein nor Hilbert articles seem a fitting place for such material.  --[[User:Chan-Ho Suh|Chan-Ho]] 03:17, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)