Talk:Battle of Al Hudaydah

Regarding revision history

Why were the contributions from the 14th to the 18th of June removed? Trinitrobrick, 12:06, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Humanitarian issues receive too much weight

I'm sure that's most of the attention this subject has received from the media, and the battle has only just begun, so there's not a whole lot to talk about. Still, half the lead and more than half the article is way too much. Flagging as undue. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 12:31, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't think the undue weight charge is warranted since they are just proportional to weight given in RSs as well as the positions by different political parties mentioned (except Saudi and USA officials who obviously don't want to talk about the humanitarian crisis). --Expectant of Light (talk) 13:09, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed with Expectant of Light, disagreed with proposal. Reliable sources prove the notability of the humanitarian crisis, and most of the international reactions except of course for Saudi Arabia and the United States who are responsible for the humanitarian issues vocally express concern for the humanitarian issues. Considering that Yemen's last port for medicine and food is being blocked, I think it's more than due to provide more information about the battle's consequences and the concerns raised regarding the battle than simply the way they fought. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 01:25, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Sourced

@Takinginterest01: no it is not sourced. The source is about 12/2017 not 06/2018. --Panam2014 (talk) 18:51, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Launching the Battle of Al Hudaydah

The Saudi-led coalition announced today that its forces were engaged in clashes with elements of the "Ansar Allah" (Houthis) on the outskirts of the city of Al Hudaydah in western Yemen.

The coalition said in a statement that its forces are currently working to secure the airport, stressing the imminent launch of the next phase of operations to put pressure on the Houthis on several fronts, including coastal points and other parts of the city as well as inland port, supported by local resistance.

According to the statement, the priority in operations is to avoid civilian casualties. Maintain the flow of humanitarian aid and allow the United Nations to pressure Ansar Allah to evacuate the city as fighting intensifies and intensified shelling intensifies.

The al-Houthis spokesman, Mohamed Abdel Salam, said on Friday that the "United Nations envoy to Yemen, Martin Griffith has done nothing so far, a cover for the continuation of the war, and does not differ from the former".

The United Nations has expressed concern that the Saudi-led coalition attack on Al Hudaydah, the strategic seaport and one of the country's main seaports, could hamper the lifeline of most of the country's citizens, with 22 million currently dependent on aid and 8.4 million facing famine. Kingston, CA (talk) 02:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Yemeni government forces control two entrances of Al Hudaydah city

The Yemeni government forces, backed by the Saudi-led coalition, took control of the southern and western entrances of the strategic city of Al Hudaydah on Saturday.

According to local sources, al-Houthi gunmen fled from places they had fortified in the the city perimeter and moved to the port of the city, under heavy and intense blows launched by UAE planes.

Hodeidah Airport has been under the control of Yemeni government forces since 13 June. The control of the airport came amid large collapses in the defenses of the Houthis forces stationed at the eastern entrance of the port of Hodeidah, with the participation of various forces including troops backed by the United Arab Emirates.

The Saudi-led coalition in Yemen launched military operations in Al Hudaydah on Thursday, according to the Yemeni government. The military operation aims to ensure that the Houthis forces are prevented from controlling the waterways and international corridors overlooking the Red Sea as part of the restoration of Al Hudaydah.

In a statement for Saudi-led coalition said "that this battle is in line with the reasons that called for the intervention of the coalition militarily in Yemen, represented by the request of the Yemeni government and relevant United Nations resolutions for the year 2015, especially resolution No. 2216." Kingston, CA (talk) 16:30, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Subjective Analysis

I am opening this discussion to prevent an edit war for edits regarding three paragraphs added under headline Battle, Analyses and Impact on the humanitarian situation.

Both paragraphs under Battle and Analyses report subjective opinions issued by journalism sources, which can be describes as analytic journalism. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia, written from a neutral point of view and based on reliable sources and objectivity. Saying things like "The alliance has superior weaponry" or "The Houthis, highly experienced in mountain warfare" is subjectivity. Statement such as "If the Houthis are driven out, the coalition could get the upper hand in the war." are purely analytical and subjective.

As for the paragraph Impact on the humanitarian situation, the information provided can be placed within the context of the main paragraph. Adding it under a separate header implies that "closure of the northern entrance of the western city Hodeidah, which leads to Sanaa, blocking a main exit out of the city and making it harder to transport goods from the country’s largest port to mountainous regions." leads to an Impact on the humanitarian situation, which is by itself a subjective report.

I have linked to Wikipedia is not a newspaper article on my initial revert as it holds multiple Wiki Policies such as WP:NPOV, WP:NOTNEWS, and WP:RECENT. Wikiemirati (talk) 06:29, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately there's no guideline in Wikipedia that says "subjective" statements must be removed. As per WP:NPOV all major viewpoints covered in reliable sources can be included proportional to their weight. The guideline does NOT say that biased or "subjective" views must be removed! What's worse in your case is that statements you point out as subjective are not in fact subjective but quite objective and brutal fact such as the coalition being superior in weapons. And since the impact on the humanitarian situation has been a very important concern in this conflict as evidenced by its coverage on reliable sources I thought it warrants a separate section. So I am yet to see the relevance of your removals with the policies you cite. Views or facts so long as they are covered by reliable sources warrant inclusion especially when coming from such credible sources as Reuters. And I revert your edit since you need consensus before removing long-standing material in the page. --Expectant of Light (talk) 14:21, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your response, I agree with reaching consensus on this issue so I will appreciate other users views on the subjectivity topic. However, it seems most of your edits are almost word by word copy pasted from Reuters. You may not copy text from other sources into Wikipedia a per WP:COPYPASTE as it constitutes a copy right violation. Wikiemirati (talk) 14:35, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

That's a valid concern. My understanding is that Wiki is less strict with WP:COPYPASTE when it comes to news agencies compared to scientific journals and academic writers. But I will attempt rewording the statements when I have time. --Expectant of Light (talk) 15:20, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Why is the entire copyvio page in the TEXT of the article?

A huge template about how to solve potential copyright problems in the middle of paragraphs about the Battle of Al Hudaydah is not helpful. That's very bothersome for the reader. Shouldn't that be on the talk page? How is this article featured on the main page in a state like this? Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 00:39, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

It made me chuckle. Honestly there is a lot of copy righted material in this article. I do agree with you. This article needs some serious elbow grease to clean up. Wikiemirati (talk) 04:03, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

As I wrote above I will consider paraphrasing the quoted texts. So yes I believe the template can be removed as I proceed with solving the issue. --Expectant of Light (talk) 06:12, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Btw, the copy-right concern can often be addressed by the putting the text inside quotation marks and adding an in-line citation instead of putting that huge template there especially when the text is so short and dense that is hard to fully paraphrase. So I assume there's consensus to remove this monstrosity and solve the issue via a good editing practice. --06:50, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

That's actually not quite true. Quotes can and should only be used where it makes sense to use them. You argue that it does make sense to use them here, which I have no comment on, but I should note that simply "put it in quotes" is not a valid way to handle copyright problems. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 11:20, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Recent removals

@Wikiemirati: Unfortunately your recent removals also don't appear to be based on a good understanding of policy. Note you can't simply remove materials you don't like by citing a policy without mentioning why the policy is even relevant. See WP:JUSTAPOLICY. And examining your removals, made clear they were not warranted based on the policies you cite. I have explained each case in my revert summaries. Having said that I found some of your other edits sound and didn't touch them. --Expectant of Light (talk) 06:23, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your mention. I will re-explain the policies.

1- In 2015, the Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen began, leading to a humanitarian catastrophe. violates WP:NPOV as it is an editorial bias. It could be a fact and could be cited by multiple resources that Saudi did in fact cause a humanitarian catastrophe, however the text in wikipedia should not copy paste it in the article. For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil."

2- Reuters writes that the alliance enjoys superior weaponry, such as fighter planes, whereas the Houthis, who are more experienced in mountain warfare, have expanded their control across Yemen on sandal-shod feet and by pickup truck. violates WP:COPYPASTE as it is directly copy pasted from Reuters article which states

The alliance has superior weaponry, including fighter planes. The Houthis, resilient and highly experienced in mountain warfare, have advanced on sandal-shod feet and by pickup truck in battles across Yemen.

This is still considered vandalism as it was not written in your own wording. There is a guide for embedding freely licensed content (either public domain or Wikipedia Compatible licenses), at Wikipedia:Adding open license text to Wikipedia. The paraphrasing was not adequate, you may add this once you rewrite it in your own words.

3- If the Hodeidah war prolongs with a high human toll on the coalition troops and an outcry over a humanitarian catastrophe, it may work in the Houthis’ favor. If the Houthis are expelled, the coalition could get the upper hand in the war. as removed by @Fitzcarmalan: violates WP:CRYSTAL and WP:COPYPASTE as it is a copy pasted speculation from a news source. Although the stated sentence is or could be true, such scheduled or expected future events should not be added to a wikipedia article as I have explained in my Subjective Analysis section on this talk page.

4- External links A concise timeline of the Yemen conflict by Reuters "Who are the Houthis in Yemen?", by Al-Jazeera in which I have stated policy WP:LINKSTOAVOID are both news sources which does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article

I have noticed my edits are not the only ones you reverted, so assuming good faith and to prevent an edit warring I will leave this matter to be judged on by more experienced users or administrators. I don't claim to know everything and I could be wrong. As this article is already under investigation for a copyright issues, and in interest not to be gaming the system, I'll wait for other users to contribute to this article or pitch in their two cents. Wikiemirati (talk) 07:25, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

This may call for further investigation by Diannaa, given the evidence presented here. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 08:26, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

@Wikiemirati: Thanks for your good faith and explanations. Here is my response:

1. With regards to the statement In 2015, the Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen began, leading to a humanitarian catastrophe. This is basically a statement of fact summarizing Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen as well as International reactions to the Saudi-led intervention in Yemen (2015–present). If you look into those sources (I recommend you do) you will find my summary accurate and neutral. But I do quote some supporting sources:

• "Saudi-led naval blockade leaves 20m Yemenis facing humanitarian disaster",
• Saudi-led strikes in Yemen break international law: U.N. coordinator which also says "Scores of civilians were reportedly killed and thousands forced to flee their homes after the coalition, which includes Saudi Arabia and nine other Arab countries and is backed by the United States, Britain and France, declared the entire governorate a military target, he said.".
• Yemen conflict: Saudi Arabia-led coalition accused of war crimes by Amnesty

2. As for the texts quoted from Reuters I think it is well within policy as per WP:PARAPHRASE which says Limited close paraphrasing is appropriate within reason, as is quoting, so long as the material is clearly attributed in the text. which is true for my version since it provides in-line citation by saying "Reuters writes that ..." And this is a reasonable policy because often texts that are short and dense are hard to rewrite in a different wording hence close-paraphrasing becomes inevitable but the concern with copy-past/plagiarism is addressed by in-line citation.

3. As for your concern with WP:CRYSTAL with regards to Reuters analysis, that's again within policy since it says: " It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced." This analysis is referenced to Reuters and I think an in-line citation as per WP:PARAPHRASE will also resolve the problem with copy-right/plagiarism.

4. As for external links on the timeline and the Houthis, note that this page does not and can not cover what is covered in those sources. So again, I don't see the relevance of the policy you cite to justify your deletions. This page only covers the current battle and its immediate background whereas the timeline by Reuters covers a span of 3 decades of political development and Al-Jazeera covers the history of Houthis going back to the historical Zaydi Imamate in North Yemen! --Expectant of Light (talk) 09:25, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I've requested further copyright investigation by Diannaa, hopefully this article issues can be resolved. Wikiemirati (talk) 10:13, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Disaster is still fairly connotive, I would recommend "crisis" as a more neutral word that conveys the same meaning. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 11:23, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't see how can anyone describe the situation in Yemen as anything short of disaster. It is basically the biggest humanitarian disaster in recent history. Millions are literally starving in Yemen! I recommend everyone here to read Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen#Reports of war crimes to know what is really going on there. That this tragedy remains oddly under-reported by Western MSM doesn't change its significance. --Expectant of Light (talk) 11:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: four different news sources. Please see the page history for specific urls. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 12:28, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you and apologies for the violations. These are the texts that were deleted for violations or close paraphrasing I believe:

(Redacted)--Expectant of Light (talk) 12:54, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I have removed the quotations. Please don't post copyright material here on the talk page. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 13:00, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh! I put them between quotation marks while naming the source in the end! But I see it is turning into a big deal here! --Expectant of Light (talk) 13:04, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I will also appreciate your opinion about the discussion we are having right above. As I see per WP:PARAPHRASE, close-paraphrasing can be acceptable with an in-line citation. Is that true? And what to do with short texts that are hard to adequately paraphrase? --Expectant of Light (talk) 13:10, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

This discussion is better suited to your talk page, but here's the short answer: Close paraphrasing is not allowed, even if you cite your source. If you find it difficult to avoid committing copyright violations, please read the three resources I already placed on your user talk page to find out how to edit Wikipedia while obeying copyright law and Wikipedia's copyright policy. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 13:16, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

But content disputes are resolved on entry's talk pages not users'. Anyway I assume you may not have time for specific opinion due to your administrative work. But as for close-paraphrasing this is what the policy reads: "Limited close paraphrasing is appropriate within reason, as is quoting, so long as the material is clearly attributed in the text – for example, by adding "John Smith wrote ...", together with a footnote containing the citation at the end of the clause, sentence or paragraph. Limited close paraphrasing is also appropriate if there are only a limited number of ways to say the same thing." --Expectant of Light (talk) 13:22, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

This is not a content dispute; it's the removal of your copyright violations by a Wikipedia administrator who specializes in copyright issues. Please take the time to learn how to write for Wikipedia using your own words. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 13:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I understood that I was at fault and I apologize for that and I also appreciate your valuable work. And since I was trying to make sure of my understanding of the policy I just asked for clarification/confirmation whether the policy allows some limited exception. The text of the guideline as I have quoted suggests to me it does. At the end I apologize again for the inconvenience that I caused. --Expectant of Light (talk) 13:39, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

One big paraphrasing trouble

Our best and brightest @Diannaa: removed this one piece of tactical point that has fascinated me. While I am not sure I exactly understand the edit summary, but I think it has to do with the same copy-right issue. How can we include this info in the page? Paraphrased suggestions, any? I don't try myself since I have lost much confidence in this area after the above convictions! :) I hope it is ok quote this here for this discussion.

According to Reuters "The alliance has superior weaponry, including fighter planes. The Houthis, resilient and highly experienced in mountain warfare, have advanced on sandal-shod feet and by pickup truck in battles across Yemen."

Commander in the Yemeni government forces from Al Hodeidah Airport: Hudaydah city our next destination

The commander of the first brigade of the Yemeni government forces, Brigadier General Mohammed Saleh, said his forces are waiting for zero hour to enter the city of Al Hudaydah in the next few days after the success of the liberation of Al Hodeidah airport, pointing out that the military operation is in stages. Mohammed confirmed from Hodeidah airport that Yemeni government forces began clearing Hodeidah airport of mines after it succeeded in controlling it.

He said that in the next few days that his forces "will proceed to the city of Al Hudaydah and then to its port and all other areas to liberate it from the Houthis."

The field commander pointed out that the morale of his forces is high, and is waiting for the zero hour to move to all remaining areas and liberation.

We are now in control of the airport and tomorrow we will enter the city and then (we will move) to its port until the liberation of the Al Hudaydah Governorate, "he said.

The general commander of the battle of Al Hudaydah, Ahmed Hassan announced on Tuesday that the Yemeni government forces, with the support and participation of the coalition forces led by Saudi Arabia, imposed full control of the airport.

Thus, the Yemeni government forces, 10 kilometers from the port, the main target of military operations, have opened the way to a larger strategic objective: to prevent the Houthis from receiving military supplies through Hudaydah .

The airport is located south of the city of Al Hudaydah overlooking the west coast of Yemen, and includes a 3-kilometer runway and a military air base. It is about 10 kilometers from the port of Hudaydah, making it a strategic hub during the liberation from the Houthis. Kingston, CA (talk) 20:25, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Commander of the fighting front forces in Hudaydah announces "the end of the battle of the airport"

The commander of the Saudi-led coalition forces in the Battle of Al Hudaydah, Brigadier General Mohammad Hassan, announced on Tuesday the liberation of Hodeidah airport from the Houthis. The commander of the forces of the battle of Hudaydah, Tuesday, that the liberation of Hodeidah airport was the participation of Yemeni government forces and support from the aircraft coalition, and confirmed full control and the clearance of the airport in full.

Brigadier Hassan revealed that the losses of the Houthis of the dead are estimated at hundreds since the start of the fighting, and pointed to the fall of more than 250 people in Houthis and 87 prisoners in Hudaydah on Tuesday, which witnessed the liberation of the airport.

The commander of the coalition forces led by Saudi Arabia in the battle of Hodeidah that humanitarian aid will flow on Hodeidah in parallel with the ongoing military operation according to plans, stressing that the liberation of Hodeidah airport is part of an integrated plan to liberate the entire city. Kingston, CA (talk) 20:57, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

On the cause of human catastrophe

@Wikiemirati: I don't have problem with mentioning different chapters of this conflict so long as their true sequence and casual links are preserved. Depending on how far back you want to go we can trace everything to the 2011 Yemeni Revolution or earlier to Sa'dah War. However the sources are unanimous that it's been aerial strikes and naval blockade by Saudi-UAE-USA coalition that has resulted in the human catastrophe not the Houthi takeover in Yemen or the civil war. --Expectant of Light (talk) 06:43, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

The UN called it the world worst human disaster pertaining to, and as caused by, the Yemeni Civil war, according to the cited source. It also however implied that the Saudi led coalition also caused the humanitarian disaster, in which I have added both links. I do agree with you, both the civil war and the Saudi led intervention caused the humanitarian disaster, hence both links should be added. I also agree with you on the Houthi takeover link, as the cited source did not claim the Houthi takeover caused the humanitarian disaster, so I agree with removing the article link. We can't trace everything back on our own accord as we based our edits on cited sources, not on our opinions or what we think caused the humanitarian disaster. Wikiemirati (talk) 06:52, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

@Wikiemirati: The single source you have used to implicate the civil war as responsible for the human catastrophe doesn't warrant your intent. You rely on the opening paragraph of the editorial which roughly conflates the civil war with "the world’s worst humanitarian crisis" which is misleading if taken too literally. All sources which detail the conflict are unanimous that the aerial bombings and the naval blockade are particularly responsible for the human catastrophe not the civil war itself. Yes, one can conflate the foreign intervention with the civil war and then blame the civil war for it but that would be a poor if not outright fallacious conflation since the foreign led coalition is not even part of Yemen to be a party to any civil war. Btw, as I have explained in my recent reverts, reflecting the sources faithfully without eliminating "unfavorable" parts using euphemisms is the right course and in keeping with WP:NPOV not the other way around. --Expectant of Light (talk) 07:54, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Since you also restored your edits, I must say reflecting sources faithfully doesn't conflict with impartial tone provided that you are not endorsing the views in Wikipedia's voice but attributing them to the cited sources. So if Almasirah describes Eritreans and Southerners recruited by the foreign coalition in the fight as "mercenaries", then reflecting just that using quotes and proper attribution makes for WP:NPOV without violating WP:IMPARTIAL. Btw, since that even non-Houthi sources have mentioned using foreign people by the coalition in the fight, the "mercenaries" doesn't sound like a very contentious claim to being with, hence I thought it warrants mention even without quotation marks. --Expectant of Light (talk) 08:02, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Doesn't change the fact that the UN called the Yemen Civil war the world worst humanitarian disaster, not the Saudi led intervention as the world worst humanitarian disaster, else it would've been called the world worst humanitarian intervention. I understand your point of view, however the tone in which you present your writings matter in wikipedia. We do not take sides. We do not echo partisan comments. We are neutral. In writing and in tone, we stay neutral. We present both sides of the conflict. If you have problems with neutrality, I will have to ask for this page to be protected as not to turn into a war mongering article. Wikiemirati (talk) 08:03, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Wikiemirati, Expectant of Light The Saudi intervention is clearly a major factor in the humanitarian situation, check what UNO says about that : [1]. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 08:15, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Awesome. You may add that to the article using UN calls "Saudi Arabian coalition's blockade of life-saving commercial goods into Yemen" as a human catastrophe. The blockade, not the intervention itself. Thanks. Wikiemirati (talk) 08:19, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Your remark seems to be WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT in my eyes : the blockade is part of the intervention. Regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 08:25, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

What I like or do not like does not matter as long as there is a reliable source. The quote of "world humanitarian disaster" belongs to a specific state, not a vague term which describes it all. This sentence was not even sourced before I added the source which describes it as the world most humanitarian disaster. Specify. Add: UN calls "Saudi Arabian coalition's interventional blockade of life-saving commercial goods into Yemen" as a human catastrophe. or "Saudi Arabian coalition's intervention, which consists of blockade of life-saving commercial goods into Yemen", as a human catastrophe. Not: Saudi led intervention led to a human catastrophe. Please have better editing skills. Thanks. Wikiemirati (talk) 08:38, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

@Wikiemirati: You are not responding to my arguments but repeating your civil war rheotric. We do present facts neutrally here but that's not what you are proposing! Your proposal is to remove views whereas all views have to be reflected faithfully as per WP:NPOV. And UN can't call the Saudi-led intervention "the worst humanitarian disaster" because the Saudi intervention is not technically a humanitarian disaster but a military operation. But this military operation is responsible for the said humanitarian disaster and this has been indeed stated by UN and other international legal bodies several times! I think you are engaging in some lingual acrobatics here to dismiss obvious facts. --Expectant of Light (talk) 08:44, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

And btw, that sentence was not in such a bad need of sourcing because it was actually summarizing another hefty page that had already documented just that sentence using numerous sources. --Expectant of Light (talk) 08:47, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

If there is an issue where I am wrong here, its probably the humanitarian disaster comment. Which Wikiviani has solved by providing another source. As far as my two edits regarding your translated source of Almasirah, I stand firmly that we should present them neutrally, not echo partisan comments from a pro sided source. "Coalition of aggression" and "death camps" are roughly translated from the pro Houthi Arabic source which, by logic, stands against the coalition. Even if the comments are right, we do not echo partisan literal comments and we do not present a side as more "aggressive" or "deadly" than the other. Wikiemirati (talk) 08:54, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Again, the blockade is part of the military intervention, therefore, saying that the military intervention led to humanitarian crisis seems correct, right ? i don't really get your point here, but if you want to write in the article that the blockade and not the military intervention led to that crisis, it's also fine for me. Regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 09:13, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I think we are debating the obvious here. Both the air strikes and the blockade are responsible for the disaster as per sources. Please have a look at Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen#Reports of war crimes and Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen#Infrastructure damage and humanitarian situation. What else do we want other than these two vastly documented sections to establish this? --Expectant of Light (talk) 09:20, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes Wikiaviani, as I have stated in my first response in this paragraph. I do not have an issue with saying that the UN stated the military intervention led to humanitarian crisis. It did, and the source you provided describes it. I had an issue with the sentence prior to my edit which stated "Saudi led intervention caused a human catastrophe" as it clearly reflects an opinion. I've added what the UN stated. If you want to add that the UN states the military intervention led to a humanitarian catastrophe, go ahead provided you cite it with a good source where the UN calls it a "human catastrophe". I had a problem with the tone of the first comment as it reflected a Wikipedia editor's opinion rather than a cited source. Best regards Wikiemirati (talk) 09:25, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Wikiemirati, we should replace "human catastrophe" with "humanitarian crisis" since it's what the source states.---Wikaviani (talk) 09:39, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

@Wikiemirati: Your being disingenuous. The sentence prior to your edit didn't say "the intervention caused the catastrophe" but that it "led to the disaster." The present version also says the same thing. Btw, it is not just UN but also Amnesty International and HRW, CARE and more. So it is an established fact not just UN opinion. --Expectant of Light (talk) 09:41, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

And as for "crisis" vs "catastrophe" vs "disaster" vs etc all of these alternations have been used by the sources. I have not checked to see which word features more prominently in the sources but that would amount to splitting hairs I believe since they broadly mean the same thing. --Expectant of Light (talk) 09:46, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I am referring to this edit which stated "In 2015, the Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen began, leading to a humanitarian catastrophe." I've added a source in which the UN talks about it which prompted me to add the Yemen civil war link, and I agreed with you on adding that Saudi led intervention caused it as well. The sentence in quotes reflects your opinion to me. You can add that the UN, HRW, or whoever stated it and reinforce your sentence. Just don't leave it as your opinion and consider it fact without citing who said it. Again, as per WP:NPOV an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil." Please read the policy page. Wikiemirati (talk) 09:53, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, I never objected to your change of "catastrophe" to "disaster" in the earlier version because I think it was a trivial change in the first place and I believe it is laughable that you are still splitting hairs. But if you do want to split hairs, like I said, "catastrophe", along with other alterations, has been used by sources such as this UN report. So I don't see what your point was in dragging this so long. --Expectant of Light (talk) 10:02, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

All these words are synonymous, we just waste our time discussing this. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 10:06, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. It was a waste of time from the beginning. First it was about the citation then about whether "catastrophe" or "disaster" must be used. There was no problem in my original version. --Expectant of Light (talk) 10:10, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Mercenary or what?

I consider that sentence a trival issue. My main concern is your pro-partisan non-neutral commentary edits on the article. Wikiemirati (talk) 10:19, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Unless i'm mistaken, the current wording of the article is quite neutral and well sourced.---Wikaviani (talk) 10:28, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I have responded to your other allegations above. I agree some of my edits about various Houthi statements could've been improved but not many other. We need to discuss case by case. There is a balance between WP:NPOV and WP:IMPARTIAL. Editing out some segments of a statement based on the latter principle can conflict with the former principle. --Expectant of Light (talk) 10:32, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Neutral point of view is a non-negotiable policy. Those two principles go hand in hand, they do not conflict. This principle base cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. If you want to add biased sources, please make sure to balance them with non-biased sources and write them in a neutral tone. Wikiemirati (talk) 10:45, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

It is non-negotiable that's why you can't cut out segments you don't like. We stay faithful to what the sources say and if there are statements that are contentious we put them inside quotation marks. That's standard policy across Wiki. --Expectant of Light (talk) 13:55, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Mercenary is not a neutral word. Hadi army is internationaly recognized like Assad army. --Panam2014 (talk) 11:23, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

"Mercenary" refers to civilian combatants that are recruited by the foreign coalition such as Eritreans, Sudanese, Blackwater and Southerners. --Expectant of Light (talk) 13:55, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Southerners are not merecenaries, they are soldiers or militas. For Sudan, for sudanese soldiers members of the army of Sudan, they are not mercenaries but foreign soldiers. Also, Houthis calls "merecenaries" all of the forces who oppose them. --Panam2014 (talk) 21:38, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, they do because all of those forces are being recruited by foreign armies to fight against their own people or part of their own people. And it is not just Houthis, independent sources have accused coalition of using mercenaries from various nationalities. --Expectant of Light (talk) 14:29, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, a large part of the ground fighting forces are foreign mercenaries (Sudanese and Senegalese among others).---Wikaviani (talk) 18:31, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

But when the fighters are members of army who are part of the coalition, they are not mercenaries. And for Houthis all of the pro-coalition fighters, including National Army and southerners are merecenaries. --Panam2014 (talk) 18:52, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

"But when the fighters are members of army who are part of the coalition, they are not mercenaries" : wrong, many regular armies around the world use mercenaries for fightings (especially ground fightings). Mercenaries remain mercenaries, even when they serve a regular army. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 19:44, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Sudanese who wear the uniform of the Sudanese army by being members of the Sudanese armed forces are not mercenaries.--Panam2014 (talk) 02:11, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed with Panam2014. Sudanese in Yemen are part of the Sudanese army as stated by the government of Sudan. Check what Reuters say about it [2]. Southerners are part of either pro-Hadi government forces or from the southern transitional council or popular committees. If you mean Blackwater personnel by the term mercenary, the correct term is "contractors". The term mercenary is a subjective term and Almasirah and pro-Houthi use it to describe all the forces they fight against, including Saudi, Emirati, and American soldiers. Regards. Wikiemirati (talk) 04:35, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

You could as well say they are not even "contractors" but human beings and that would be equally true! However, mercenary is used to describe someone who fights only for money and yeah private militarizes also fight for money! Now what about RSs telling us that the coalition is paying money to these government only to have their armies fight in Yemen? We already know some Arab governments in this region are good at splashing money around to buy short-term allies. Trump had some candid comments about that! And now what about Colombian mercenaries paid to fight for Yemen? Since when, UAE has had strategic relations with this remote crime-ridden Latin American country half way around the world? What about another poor country, Chad? Doesn't take rocket science why all these "contractors" come from the poorest countries in the world! Fighting to avoid hunger! The southerners could've been also only paid to fight in this fraternal catastrophic war in which the Saudi coalition has been accused of war crimes! So perhaps you should accept the ugly truth and back off! It's been overdue already! --Expectant of Light (talk) 21:28, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Hence, the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. Subjectively, they are mercenaries who are paid to fight. Objectively, they belong to specific organizations who use specific names. With your rationale, every soldier in every army is a mercenary since the government pays him a salary. Those Colombians and African you cite could be part of Academi, an organization who contracts governments to fight. The official name of the "mercenary" in this organization is contractor. They've been used by the US and they've been used by the Saudi coalition. We call them here in what specific name they want to be called, not to what their opponents call them as we maintain neutrality. Wrong, the southerners were not paid soldiers most of them are either pro-Saleh or call themselves resistance, and most of them sided against the Houthis after Houthis killed Ali Abdulla Saleh. Regards. Wikiemirati (talk) 22:32, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Of course, no mercenary would call themselves mercenary just as no dictator calls himself a dictator. But anyway, we have some RSs calling them mercenaries. It is not just Houthis. This gives the Houthi POV some credibility. And don't forget the coalition are accused of war crimes and are responsible for the human catastrophe. Do you think a party of such dark record would feel much moral restraint in recruiting mercenaries so as to win the war at whatever cost? It's good to love your country, but justifying your rulers under any and all circumstances discredits your claim to neutrality. --Expectant of Light (talk) 00:38, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying your point of view. I am not justifying anyone actions, I only aim to establish neutrality in this article. There are a lot of pro-Houthi and pro-Coalition news sources out there. I am constantly bombarded of the pro-Saudi coalition propaganda which says that Houthis use child soldiers or plant mines and blow children limbs just as Pro-Houthi propaganda says that coalition kill civilians etc etc. Our role here in Wikipedia is to convey both sources neutrally. I can find multiple sources of pro coalition sources which say that Houthis are terrorists and kill children and add it to the article too, just like how Houthi say Saudi are all mercenaries. I am not denying the accusations Houthi say about the coalition, just as I do not deny the coalition accusations when they say that Houthis plant mines in residential areas. This is Wikipedia and articles on it deserve to be represented fairly, not sided to pro-Houthi or pro-Saudi. Hence, our tone should reflect neutrality or else this article turns into a war mongering article. Best regard. Wikiemirati (talk) 01:12, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

This gives the Houthi POV some credibility. anything. Sudanese soldiers members of the sudanese armed forces are not mercenaries and for Houthis, all of the anti Houthi forces are mercenaries. Also, Southerners are not mercenaries. --Panam2014 (talk) 01:55, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Whether the Sudanese are soldiers or private militia is incidental in supporting the mercenary charge because it is contextual elements that matter. Of course, all armies receive salaries, but if a government or army is fighting primarily for money not based on some nationalistic or moral grounds, then it is conventional to call them mercenaries because there's little beyond financial reward that encourages them to fight. So governments can indeed lend out their armies to fight other countries' wars in return for financial compensation. And I have seen even neutral sources sometimes describing the Sudanese and basically every other nationality fighting for KSA/UAE as mercenaries. So again this is NOT just a Houthi POV. Add this only makes further sense when we realize that Houthis never had any problem with Sudanese, Chadians, Eritreans or Cubans to provoke their governments to fight against them! As with Southerners I understand it is difficult to accuse any and all as mercenaries for southerners may have mixed motivations in fighting the Houthis. But now having said all of this, I know you may acknowledge that it is not our job here in Wikipedia to find WP:TRUTH in each case. Whether or not part of the coalition can be described as mercenaries or whether or not Houthis are right in branding all or some of their enemies as mercenaries is irrelevant to our work here. We don't decide which POV is right or wrong. But we do decide whether we can endorse a POV in Wikipedia voice or rather explicitly attribute it to its source without endorsing it. Likewise I think in this article we only have to reflect what the sources say while attributing the controversial claims to each individual source, using quotation marks if necessary, without endorsing or denying them in Wikipedia voice. I hope this standard course of action is clear to understand to spell an end to this controversy. If you still don't like segments of Houthi statements you can't remove them simply because you think their accusations are exaggerated but I do agree we may resort to a compromise: only quote their "mercenaries and hypocrites" once in the section but in later references replace them "coalition forces" so as to remove any possible concern with WP:IMPARTIAL if the tone you think is really problematic. And if the coalition also accuses Houthis of certain wrongdoings then go ahead and also state their POV in the page, nobody is stopping you since that's just WP:NPOV. --Expectant of Light (talk) 06:57, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Neutral sources do not describe the Sudanese army operating in Yemen as mercenaries.Sudanese qualified as mercenaries are not members of the Sudanese army. Say this is an OR. On the other hand, a coalition may also be based on ideological motives since Sudan has similar points with Saudi Arabia. Our views are of no importance here. In the same way that the Ukrainian troops who were in Iraq in 2003 at the request of the US and the UK, in exchange for money are not mercenaries, even if the Ukrainians have no interest in Iraq and that they had no problem with Saddam Hussein. And as we know that "mercenaries" are used by the Houthis to designate all anti Houthis, it is not acceptable to put this quote. In addition, Southerners have a local agenda even if the KSA support them for the sake of mercenary skills. --Panam2014 (talk) 23:14, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

@NightsideAEB, Ukrpatriot98, WorldRecognisedAE, LightandDark2000, Applodion, NuclearWizard, and Dvbdfxgn: what do you think?--Panam2014 (talk) 23:18, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

The problem with calling them mercenaries is that it is the Sudanese government that is behaving as a mercenary, rather than the Sudanese troops. Not to mention, PMC's are actually used by the US, Russia, Iran, and the Syrian regime, and the word mercenary is rarely used, but rather the more neutral term PMC or private contractors. When discussing non-state militias fighting for money, using mercenary on occasion is acceptable in order to improve the quality of writing by substituting synonyms; however trying to insert the word mercenary every other sentence, and especially trying to apply it to regular troops fighting for nation state orders, sounds like an uncalled for form of partial editing. Plus don't all coalitions fight for money, on some level? The economic considerations of controlling Arabian seaports and shipping lanes can arguably make everybody a mercenary. Financial incentives are part and parcel of the core interests of nation states, and Sudan is behaving no differently in this manner. NightsideAEB (talk) 01:51, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Sudanese army/Sudanese government forces or private contractors.Ukrpatriot98 (talk) 15:32, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

"Yemeni mercenaries" is an OR. The mercenaries have not the yemeni citizenship. We should write pro-Hadi merecenarie or mercenaries. And we should not use Al Arabiya and Al Masirah. --Panam2014 (talk) 15:05, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Al-Masirah must be used to cover their side of the story since foreign reporters don't have much access to Houthi-held areas. Don't forget the Houthis are now the de facto government of Yemen! They have formed parliament and are running the country! And they seem to be the most ethical play in this conflict, so their POV is less likely to include blatant falsehoods than the coalition that has several times claimed having captured the airport without any evidence to show for it. --Expectant of Light (talk) 16:08, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

sources

@Expectant of Light: You have nothing to say that the Houthis are more ethical than the coalition. Let's not forget that the Houthis are anti-Semitic, and call for US death. They are objectively extremist. In the end, it's just your own opinion of them. This is war propaganda, we have no evidence that the Saudi or Houthi lied. We need to use reliable sources like NYT, The Telegraph, Washington Post, Reuters, etc. It is better to have late news than relay the potential lies of the belligerents. And running a part of the country is not an argument for their news to be reliable. The Sana agency in Syria is no more reliable. --Panam2014 (talk) 20:41, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

@NightsideAEB, Ukrpatriot98, WorldRecognisedAE, LightandDark2000, Applodion, NuclearWizard, Dvbdfxgn, Chilicheese22, Wikiemirati, and Wikaviani: what do you think? --Panam2014 (talk) 20:43, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Houthis are allied with Iran, and Iran is obviously not a friend of Israel or the USA. I agree (of course) with the use of reliable sources for any significant edit of the article. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 00:24, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Panam2014: Look at Houthis and read their campaign objectives. They are pro-reform, anti-corruption, pro-democracy, pro-independence, pro-justice. This is what several sources have stated. As for anti-Semitism, they have rejected the charge. Their slogans must not be read out of context and taken literally. --Expectant of Light (talk) 03:40, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Wikaviani: Western sources seldom cover Houthi positions and statements probably because of their political biases. Several western governments have been involved in this gang rape of Yemen. --Expectant of Light (talk) 03:44, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Expectant of Light: No, it's not out of context. You have the right to support the Houthis but you can not say that their eulogy is an objective point of view. He is not. We have several reports on the violation of human rights, the use of child soldiers, and their anti-Semitism is not limited to their slogan. There is no reason to consider that they are pro-democracy, for human rights or that their news is more reliable than that of Al Arabiya. Please read WP:NPOV. Also, western sources are reliables and not biaised because they reported KSA's human rights violations. When some western countries supports KSA and UAE, the media does not support KSA and UAE because the media are free and independent. --Panam2014 (talk) 15:25, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Use of "child soldiers" have been reportedly limited to non-combat roles, i.e. manning checkpoints in cities, guarding government buildings and carrying ammunition to the battlefields. As for being pro-democracy again that's what the sources say. They advocate a republican form of government which is independent and represents all Yemenis people. However one can be pro-democracy but also make mistakes or violations. (Obama for example was a democrat but bombed Libya back into the stone-age). And no they are not anti-Semitic. They have denied this. Read the Houthis. As for Western media reporting, the bias can be only in that they under-report Houthi statements. This is different from UN bodies who are more neutral but still not fully neutral. UN was once forced by KSA to remove the country from its war crimes black list. UN SC also rejected a resolution for immediate ceasefire. --Expectant of Light (talk) 15:33, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Expectant of Light:It's wrong. Amnesty clearly condemns the use of child soldiers, and I find that the use of quotation marks is misplaced. For antisemitism, it is not enough for them to deny, secondary sources of quality have given evidence. Then talk about mistakes is a bias. Thank you for not comparing the incomparable by using an off-topic example with Obama. In short, the Houthis are not pro democracy, they claim it only. For media reliability, you have no proof other than your own opinion that is not proof.--Panam2014 (talk) 15:53, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

I didn't deny they use child-soldiers but that there's a qualification hence quotation marks. Houthis are facing a gang rape of Yemen, hence they have to mobilize beyond ordinary limits hence having to use young boys in some posts. And Houthis are inspired by Iran's revolutionary ideology which according to Israel is also anti-Semitic even though Jews have been granted rights to live and practice their religion and have a member in parliament in Iran. Same goes with the Houthis. They are opposed to Israel. It is clear from their routine coverage of Palestine developments. There are reports that their supporters harassed Yemeni Jews in the past but that doesn't mean that's the official policy of the Houthi leadership because as with any other vast social movement, rogue elements among the grassroots can do bad things on their own. And my comparison with Obama was sound. And what I said is supported by Houthis. If you don't have the time to read that hefty page, tell me to quote everything here for substantiation. --Expectant of Light (talk) 16:19, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Expectant of Light:Once again, you only give your personal opinion. The use of child soldiers is unjustifiable, whatever the circumstances. For the accusations of anti-Semitism, they are substantiated and they have nothing to do with the fact that Iran is the model of the Houthis. Houthis are objectively anti-Semitic and call for hatred against the US and Israel. Which makes it objectively an extremist group, you can not do anything about it. For the rest, intervening in Libya is not against democracy, since Gaddafi was not democratic and the people wanted him to leave. That the intervention was poorly managed, just as the transition is one thing, but to say that it is the same thing as for the Houthis is another. It is at least an off-topic comparison. Otherwise, by the way, Iran supported the intervention against Gaddafi. Houthis are not democratic and independent sources do not describe them as such. --Panam2014 (talk) 16:25, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

I would say supporting a puppet by bombing an entire country, or deposing a dictator by bombing an entire country, is also unjustifiable under any circumstances given that US has a checkered record in military interventions and it is always and ever "poorly managed". And I also see you don't want to read and learn.

• According to a February 2015 Newsweek report, Houthis are fighting "for things that all Yemenis crave: government accountability, the end to corruption, regular utilities, fair fuel prices, job opportunities for ordinary Yemenis and the end of Western influence".[3]
• Hassan al-Homran, a former spokesperson for Ansar Allah, has said that "Ansar Allah supports the establishment of a civil state in Yemen. We want to build a striving modern democracy. Our goals are to fulfil our people's democratic aspirations in keeping with the Arab Spring movement."[4]
• According to Ahmed Addaghashi, a professor at Sanaa University, the Houthis began as a moderate theological movement that preached tolerance and held a broad-minded view of all the Yemeni peoples. [5]
• Their opposition to US is also because of the disastrous wars that US has waged against Muslim countries over the recent years, the US uncritical support for Israel, as well as the US role in the ongoing genocide against Yemen. --Expectant of Light (talk) 16:35, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Expectant of Light:None of the Houthi's practices are democratic, but despite the justified criticism of the US, there is no reason to say that they are not a democracy. You still compare the incomparable. There are sources that say the US is a democracy, by no means the Houthis. Finally, do not change the subject, we are talking about the practices of the Houthis who are unjustifiable, not the USA. For you other sources, these are the statements of the Houthi officials and they have no value. For the teacher from Sanaa, he talks about the beginning, not about the current situation. Your comparison with the USA is an OR. Finally, objectively, the Houthis are an extremist group even if you support it.--Panam2014 (talk) 16:51, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Saudi arabia is not a democracy either and the practices of the Arab coalition are also quite unjustifiable. However, as editors, we cannot say "Western sources are biased" and use this rationale here, on Wikipedia. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 00:02, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Wikaviani: KSA is not a democracy not because the intervention in Yemen but because the form of government. Also, western sources are the most reliables that we could find. They denouces Saudi crimes and denounes the western countries involvment in Yemen. There are no proof that they are biaised. Also, saudi media are not independent from the government but western media are free and independent. --Panam2014 (talk) 00:07, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Panam2014, yeah, this is why i said that we cannot just say "western sources are unreliables", since they are probably more reliables than "local sources". Regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 00:11, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Panam2014: I'm afraid you know little about Houthis! First of all Houthis are leaders of a vast social movement called Ansar Allah. They have millions of supporters who regularly hold massive rallies in Sanna in their support. Secondly Houthis have been the biggest opponent of extremism in Yemen. One of their key objections to past Yemeni governments were their permission to Saudi-funded extremist Wahhabi madrasas to be replaced by traditional Islamic madrasas such as Shafi'i and Zaydi that were tolerant. Their biggest enemy after KSA has been Al-Qaeda and they contributed to the fight and eradication of Al-Qaeda from Yemen. From day one, they have vocally protested Yemeni government's corruption while Yemeni people were suffering from poverty. They have now established a parliament. If they were not democratic they wouldn't. --Expectant of Light (talk) 04:05, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Btw, I don't think this page is unbalanced. If the Western and Arab sources are not reporting on losses of the coalition that's not this page's fault. The coalition needs to save face when they thought they could take over Hudayda in a matter of 24h but now they've got stuck for over two weeks there. --Expectant of Light (talk) 04:08, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Expectant of Light:|Again, you only give your opinion or you just relay their own statements. For the rest, a group can fight extremism while being extremist. See in the West the antagonism between the far right and the far left. For the Houthis, sources say that initially they were not extremists but they drifted over time. For their demonstrations, it's part of their propaganda. If Gaddafi in July 2011 organized a very big rally in Tripoli, this does not make him a Democrat. For the parliament, it is a puppet registration chamber. The USSR had it, the dictatorial regime of Saleh too. Moreover, if they were Democrats, they would never have allied with Saleh. --Panam2014 (talk) 04:11, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

The article is not neutral. Many unreliable sources like Al Manar or Al Massirah are used at too high a dose. And opposite, we used very little Saudi sources, like Arab News, MBC, Al Arabiya. I think that only reliable and independent sources should be used for the core of the article. --Panam2014 (talk) 04:13, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

That they are a moderate theological movement shows that their fight against extremism came from a moderate ideology. Now also tell me if any of these goals that they pursue makes them extremists: According to a February 2015 Newsweek report, Houthis are fighting "for things that all Yemenis crave: government accountability, the end to corruption, regular utilities, fair fuel prices, job opportunities for ordinary Yemenis and the end of Western influence".[6] They clearly address common grievances of all Yemenis, making them democratic.

The article is balanced. If it looks imbalanced is because we don't get many updates from Western sources like Reuters or even Arab sources such as Al-Arabiya, whereas Almasirah routinely publishes updates about the war. The coalition stopped reporting any of their causalities from the second day of the battle. It shows they don't want to give out many information and Western sources can only report what the coalition ground operators seem fit to report. --Expectant of Light (talk) 08:32, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for reading OR. Your interpretation of the sources is not based on anything. Saudi sources have every interest in inventing false advances on the ground, as well as pro-Houthi sources. Al Masirah and other pro-Iranian sources are unreliable and nothing confirms the advances they are talking about. Western sources are neutral in the conflict and you have never proved their bias. If not, again, to say that Houthis are moderate is only your partisan personal opinion. Finally, it is the Houthis who say they fight against corruption and for the people, the source quotes the word of the officials. In short, this article is to be rebalanced. --Panam2014 (talk) 13:04, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

What is your opinion based on? I have at least cited sources and facts for my statements but you have cited non! Yet you claim it is me who is making "personal" claims. So far you have not proven why the article is not balanced. But if you have sources that cover developments of the war in an alternative light, do go ahead and add them to the page. That's how balancing works. Not removing one side's narrative simply because there's no opposite narrative. And I just checked Al-Arabia and it confirmed my understanding that they have not been reporting on Yemen recently. Only today they ran this press conference by coalition spokesman rejecting recent UN report about their war crimes and this report on their alleged victories against Houthis south of Hudaida. Other that these two reports today, I went backward through their archive until June 17 not finding any older report on Yemen. As for Reuters, I did find three recent updates with regards to UN efforts for ceasefire. This and this and this one which is an important development. I consider adding these reports to the page in my first chance but nobody is stopping you either. --Expectant of Light (talk) 13:59, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Expectant of Light:It's not for me to quote, I'm not asserting anything. On the other hand, you do not distinguish between passages where the article quotes the opinion of Houthi leaders and when the article or the journalist gives information. In all your sources, it is either a description of the early Houthi movement or the words of its leaders. I will make quotations when you have given the sources I am asking for, ie descriptions of the Houthi movement now and not old descriptions or partisan descriptions. Finally, you clearly support them when you say they are for democracy when no source says it. This article is not balanced. Either we add all Saudi sources that have appeared to balance, or we use independent sources. I prefer the second option.--Panam2014 (talk) 14:59, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@EkoGraf, Mr.User200, CMV512, BiggestSataniaFanboy89, and XavierGreen: @OxfordLaw, GWA88, Isanae, Vinithehat, Tobby72, Davemck, Jacsam2, and Chad The Goatman: @Meeepmep, Snowsky Mountain, and SUM1: what do you think ? --Panam2014 (talk) 15:07, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

No you are asserting! You say they are extremists and they are lying. The Newsweek report which I quoted is not quoting the Houthis' words, but it is expressing the understanding of the reporter. Plus there are other reports that support the anti-corruption platform of the Houthis. I believe as per WP:NPOV we should cite the reports/POVs of all major parties involved which in this case includes those of KSA, UAE, Houthis, Hadi, UN, Amnesty, and more "independent" sources such as Reuters. --Expectant of Light (talk) 15:13, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Of course to outright call them barbaric would be violating WP:NPOV but many Houthi sources are often considered unreliable by many as pure propaganda. As for whether Iran is backing them or not, several sources say they are even if they do deny it so it could be possible to add in brackets to the infobox "denied by Iran and Houthis" if you really want neutrality but there needs to be a source of them denying it. Either way, that should not be removed from the infobox. As for the protests, the problem is that it doesn't have anything to do with Al Hudaydah so they are on the wrong article anyway. While the Houthis are obviously not the only ones committing war crimes, they certainly have been committing such so to remove their war crimes but not the Saudis' is in and of itself a violation of WP:NPOV. The Ninja5 Empire (Talk) 04:52, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

You do not like Reuters but Reuters is neutral, whether you like it or not. Otherwise, I have read everything, either the article quotes the statements of the officials or it gives its interpretation of the positioning that the Houthis give themselves. And it is the independent sources that describe the anti-Semitism of the Houthis, as well as the fact that they organized public executions. Please read WP:NPOV. --Panam2014 (talk) 15:16, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, the truth is I don't believe there's any neutral media out there if only for myriad of structural, financial and cultural biases that are inherent to any human institution! As for Reuters, I see that even though Houthis publish very detailed and rich statements and reports, Reuters only occasionally covers some of them in passing, whereas it dedicates greater space to coalition's statements and operations. For example why this mass demonstrations in Sanaa not be even mentioned by Reuters or this denial by a Houthi official that UAE has not paused the war despite their claims? --Expectant of Light (talk) 15:26, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

It's an OR. Reuters talks about the crimes of the coalition so they are neutral. For the protests, Reuters only talks about them when they are really large. The Houthis as any belligerent is likely to make fake news and the Houthis can lie when they deny. --Panam2014 (talk) 15:31, 2 July 2018 (UTC) OR is inevitable in determining neutrality/reliability of the sources and that's how it works across Wikipedia. Btw, it is not our job to determine whether a party may or may not lie. You describe the Houthis as belligerent but you could as well call them a anti-colonial social movement. Lastly I think dragging this discussion further is pointless. As per WP:NPOV I agree we should add the POV of all major parties involved. That should put an end to this discussion. --Expectant of Light (talk) 16:04, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Expectant of Light: it is not your job to determine with your own interpretation that if Reuters is reliable or not if the source is not critized by sources. Houthis are not anti colonial because they are the puppets of Iran. But Al Manar or the pro-Iran outlets there are lots of proofs that the sources are not reliables. For Al Massirah, it is not reliable, like pro-Hadi or pro-Houthi Saba news agency. --Panam2014 (talk) 01:40, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I didn't say Reuters in not reliable. It definitely is. I was saying whether it is fully neutral since it doesn't cover Houthi statements and reports. As for Houthis being puppets of Iran, they are not even though they are ideologically allied with Iran. There are claims that they have received some weapons from Iran but these have remained controversial. What is certain is that the United States National Security Council spokesperson Bernadette Meehan has said that "It remains our assessment that Iran does not exert command and control over the Houthis in Yemen" [7] which means they are not puppets of Iran. As for reliability of Houthi media outlets my assessment is that they are fairly reliable and it's crucial to provide their narrative in keeping with WP:NPOV. If Houthis could not be trusted for anything, UN envoys wouldn't regularly meet with them. They wouldn't be allowed in GCC negotiations for a new government after the fall of Saleh and so forth. So it is advisable you ease your strong opinions against them. --Expectant of Light (talk) 01:56, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

@Expectant of Light: does not full act as Iran's puppet but they denounces US imperialism and want to replace it by Iran's imperialism. KSA also does not fully act as US puppet. But they support US imperialism. For their reliability, in Northern Yemen, the press is not free, like in southern. So we couldn't trust on Houthi or Hadi news outlets. So it is advisable you strongly support the Houthis. --Panam2014 (talk) 02:03, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh! I'm tired of this discussion. Please cite sources for what you say. There's no comparison between Houthi relations with Iran and Saudi relations with USA. Without US support, just as Trump recently said, Saudis can't survive for a week, and they have been directly aided by US in this war politically, technically and militarily, whereas Houthis have not received any substantial material support from Iran. They are relying on their own people. Were Iran to substantially aid the Houthis, Saudis would've lost not just this war but their own country long ago! But I don't know what this has anything to do with our editing. And whether or not the press in North Yemen are "free" doesn't matter much. We are not selling Houthi reports as truth but as their own claims. In Wikipedia both facts and claims are covered. And there are several reliable sources that cover Houthi reports, such as Al-Alam, Iran's Tasnim News agency, Al-Mayadeen, Al-Akhbar, etc. These are not necessarily neutral but certainly reliable. --Expectant of Light (talk) 02:16, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

@Expectant of Light: In Wikipedia both facts and claims are covered. No. For example, we does not considers that Axis POV and Allies POV are both part of the truth. The proportion should be respected. Please read Iran–Saudi Arabia proxy conflict. Pro Hadi are the puppet of KSA and USA and Houthis are puppets of Iran. The official agencies of the belligerants are propaganda outlets, they are not reliables. For Reuters when it does not cover all of the Houthi rallyes, it is because all of them were not bigger than the previous. When the press is not free, the reports are not reliables. --Panam2014 (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

You neither have an accurate knowledge of the Houthis nor Wiki guidelines. " No, Yemen’s Houthis actually aren’t Iranian puppets." How many more sources do you want? In Wikipedia, we may quote both Axis and Allied's views but not as part of truth but as part of their own views, or only Allied's as truth but Axis's as views. You have to carefully read WP:NPOV especially WP:NPOVS and save me and yourself some time instead of repeating same points over and over.

@Expectant of Light: It's wrong. Neutrality is not giving as much importance to all points of view. If the sources cover more than one point of view, another must be taken into account. If someone commits a robbery, is seen by many that he stole but denies, his word is not as important as that of others. Please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources and undue weight. For the Guardian, the both are proxy.--Panam2014 (talk) 03:58, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, sure if Houthis make a claim that is clearly shown to be false by other sources, then it may not warrant inclusion even as a Houthi view. But so far we have not had a case like this. As for nature of Iran's support for Houthis I have explained above and I don't need to repeat. Iran may have sent some weapons to the Houthis as many sources strongly suggest this, but Houthis have their own goals, social base of support and are not controlled and directed by Iran. This is confirmed by sources that I already linked above as well as your own source which say: "It seems possible that the success of the Houthis’ drive south, and the dramatic Saudi reaction in mobilising an international intervention, has taken Iran by surprise. It is unclear how much control Tehran exercises over the rebels." This one says Iran's control over Houthis is unclear whereas the two more credible sources I mentioned say Iran has no control at all. --Expectant of Light (talk) 07:25, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

It's wrong. These two sources are equally credible. So the relations between Iran and Houthis are controversial For the sources, they say that the Houthis are anti-Semitic but they deny it. The Houthi view is a primary source, and the sources that accuse them are secondary sources. On WP a secondary source is more important than a primary source.--Panam2014 (talk) 18:44, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Enough with the pings

Alright, this is the second time I've been pinged in a month: the first was by Chilicheese22 and the second just now by Panam2014. All that because I fixed formatting on an article three months ago. Can you guys try to be a bit more subtle with your canvassing? Can I ask all of you to stop pinging me to know "what I think"? Isa (talk) 17:53, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

No it is not canvassing. "Canvassing is notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way, and is considered inappropriate." --Panam2014 (talk) 01:44, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

@Isanae: Don't know if you can see the irony, but you complain about being pinged, and then go out of your way to ping me about a user wanting to include you in a discussion. Furthermore, I suggest you take a deep breath and assume good faith, instead of making baseless accusations. If you feel that you can't provide anything beneficial, than you can easily ignore it, and if your that aggravated by a notification, simply leave a message on the user's talk page to kindly remove you from any future discussions. Chilicheese22 (talk) 17:21, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I was never in any discussion. You guys are scanning the history of various articles and pinging random editors. Just don't. Isa (talk) 20:58, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

@Isanae: Again you continue to double down on your false accusations, I pinged you once nearly a month ago and you made it clear that you didn't want to be apart of any future discussion, and I haven't pinged you since. Now a different user goes and pings you, and you go out of your way to include me in your rant, when you could have easily just went to his talk page and asked him nicely to remove you from any future discussion. Which shows me that this whole thread was just created for attention. Chilicheese22 (talk) 17:00, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

This I think is not worth the rage. Cool down people and walk away! See I didn't ping any of you! --Expectant of Light (talk) 17:05, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

WP:CANVASS says: "The following behaviors are regarded as characteristic of inappropriate notification (and may be seen as disruptive): Spamming: Posting an excessive number of messages to individual users, or to users with no significant connection to the topic at hand." (emphasis mine) I would kindly ask that the mass pinging of random users stop. I was not the only user to be pinged in this manner in the past few months. Isa (talk) 19:26, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

@Isanae: If you feel that strongly that this is canvassing, go ahead and read How To Stop Canvassing, I mean it is right on the same page that you keep referring to, or do you just bring up whatever fits your narrative. Anyways, you clearly are just looking for attention, so I just want you to know that I won't be responding to this hypocrisy anymore. Cheers - Chilicheese22 (talk) 16:35, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Chilicheese22: you are right. Canvassing is the act of notifying a contributor because of their opinions that are close to the contributor who has notified. You have nothing to prove your accusations. --Panam2014 (talk) 18:37, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Iran's support

@Wikiemirati: Citing Iran in support gives the misleading impression that Iran is currently involved in the war or is arming the Houthis which can't be true since Iran is not involved in the war and can't send arms, at least since the battle started and the port became dysfunctional. And indeed none of the sources you've used state that Iran is involved in this battle, whereas US and France have been directly involved. --Expectant of Light (talk) 07:41, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Coalition claims Iran is directly involved by supplying arms and logistics to the Houthis, hence they are supported by Iran. Both sources state that coalition claims Iran is involved. This information is sourced. You may add "alleged" as support since Iran denies arming the Houthis. Thanks. Wikiemirati (talk) 13:41, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Unbalanced article (bis repetita)

Hi @Wikiemirati, Chilicheese22, and BiggestSataniaFanboy89: the article remains unbalanced but Expectant of Light have removed the template without consensus. We are three to say that the article is not balanced by using uneliables sources from one side. --Panam2014 (talk) 23:53, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

This article is unbalanced as it is written in a form that is mainly used from pro houthi sources. Please help improve this article by adding neutral sources. If you must add a pro houthi source POV please make sure you meet them with pro coalition POV sources as to balance the weight of the article, or remove the biased sources and use neutral sources altogether. I prefer the latter. Thanks Wikiemirati (talk) 02:49, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

@Wikiemirati and Panam2014: First, we don't remove biased sources in Wikipedia. Second, none of you specifically responded to my argument: "The page is not biased. The problem is that the coalition are not reporting on the war whereas Houthis report on a daily basis. That's not our fault." I'm glad to see your response. You can't push for an opinion without engaging in a discussion explaining and defending your opinion. --Expectant of Light (talk) 03:32, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedians are not journalists. This article is not intended to cover the "daily" activity of the belligerents. Regardless, your point is still invalid as it is giving undue weight to the article. Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view. As per WP:NPOV "This does not mean any biased source must be used; it may well serve an article better to exclude the material altogether." The article needs to include everyone's point of view to be considered balanced. Regards. Wikiemirati (talk) 03:47, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

We are not journalists that's why I didn't cover "the daily activities" of the parties either but rather only important developments that are worth mention. So I am left to see what backs up your claim that there's undue weight in the article. As for your citations of WP:NPOV that "This does not mean any biased source must be used; it may well serve an article better to exclude the material altogether." again I'm left to see your argument why important developments reported by the Houthis must be excluded. --Expectant of Light (talk) 08:05, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Then we should add more balanced information instead of warring on whether to remove the template. The Ninja5 Empire (Talk) 04:10, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Israel in the infobox

@Expectant of Light: Whether it's a speculation or a POV (not sure why the latter is more acceptable than the former), it does not belong in the infobox. The infobox is for countries that are actually involved. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 13:16, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

You can compare it with other articles which feature wars where the infobox includes both allegations of involvement as well as established facts. That would be just extension of WP:NPOV to the infoboxes. I don't know what warrants your exception. --Expectant of Light (talk) 14:04, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Such allegations are usually more than empty claims. That being said, I'm not talking about other wars, I'm talking about this one. Conspiracy theories don't belong in military infoboxes. If the Houthis claimed the Vatican was involved in the battle, would you consider that as warranting a mention in the infobox? --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:03, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

You're not citing any policy but appear to fare along WP:IDONTLIKEIT. It's not our job to verify claims. We are not to find WP:TRUTH even though I don't find Israeli involvement unlikely at all given Houthis' anti-Zionist platform. --Expectant of Light (talk) 03:10, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on verifiable evidence. Accordingly, fiction does not belong in infoboxes. Every time there is a military conflict in the Middle East, someone claims Israel is involved. Such claims can be discussed in the article (like Hanish Islands conflict), but such trivia should not be the first thing a reader puts their eyes on when they open an article. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 07:25, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

You apparently mistake Wikipedia with a detective or an investigator platform! No! Wikipedia is not based on verifiable evidence rather Wikipedia publishes facts and povs that are verifiable in the sense that those facts and povs can be attributed to "a reliable source." Again you have to heed WP:TRUTH. In other words it is the attribution of a statement that must be verifiable not its truthfulness! Other than that I don't see any policy-based argument in your opposition to this piece other than your strong conviction that this POV must be a falsehood. But that's not how Wikipedia works. --Expectant of Light (talk) 17:26, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Look at the September 11 attacks article. Do you see Israel, the United States, etc. in the perpetrators section in the infobox? I never said POVs can't be included, I merely stated that such speculations shouldn't be the first thing a reader lays eyes on when s/he opens an article. Why don't we instead make a chapter about alleged foreign involvement? Then we can address coalition claims of Iranian and Hezbollah involvement as well. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:05, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

By citing 9/11 I think you’re comparing apples and oranges. First of all, 9/11 was a terrorist attack not a war involving various governments. Secondly, the alternative sources that claimed Israeli involvement in 9/11 were a too small minority in comparison to overwhelming number of mainstream sources that rejected it, whereas for this war several governments are already confirmed to be involved including Western governments! And given that

• Western governments are in close alliance with Israel,
• KSA has been recently normalizing with Israel,
• Houthis are openly anti-Israel
• Yemen and Red Sea are of strategic importance to Israel

Israeli involvement doesn’t seem far-fetched at all to be dismissed as an evident falsehood. --Expectant of Light (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I really don't care how likely you think it is that Israel is involved, as it's irrelevant to this discussion. My point is that such far-fetched claims and speculations should not be in the infobox (unless you want to add Israel to every infobox in articles about wars in the Middle East, as someone always claims Israel is supporting their enemies). Infoboxes are meant to sum up key information, and are not intended as a platform for every empty claim by the warring parties. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 20:11, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

If what I say by citing some credible reasoning is irrelevant, then how can what you say without any credible argument be a basis for your proposed edit? --Expectant of Light (talk) 20:47, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

It's your job to present evidence, not my job to disprove your non-existent evidence (classic argumentum ad ignorantiam). The burden of proof (note: proof - not reasoning) is in your court. Actually, strike that - our reasoning is irrelevant for this project per WP:OR. I'm not against including the Houthi claim, but it should be in an appropriate section. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 21:00, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

You claim the view is far-fetched and I argued that it is not but you repeat your own empty claim that it is without any reasoning. And I can't cite evidence for if there was a published evidence, this wouldn't be cited as a POV attributed to the Houthis but as a fact! Not to mention that even with established facts, we can't cite evidence, but rather we cite documents in which other parties claimed to have seen evidence. (Have you yourself seen direct evidence of the battleships taking part in this battle?) And again, I'm yet to see any policy why infobox is an exception to WP:NPOV. --Expectant of Light (talk) 21:24, 9 July 2018 (UTC)