Talk:Breakup of Yugoslavia

Serbs as a "constitutional nation" in Croatia

Is there a source for the claim that "status of ethnic Serbs of Croatia being changed from "constitutional nation" to "national minority""? Serbs did indeed became a national minority in the new constitution however there is no reference to them as "constitutional nation" in the old constitution. They where mentioned seperatly from the other ethnic groups but nowhere are they called "constitutional nation" or given more rights then ethnic groups.--78.1.116.135 (talk) 15:09, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

That is indeed quite often repeated statement from Serbian [nationalist] circles, but I've never seen the proof either. Googling reveals only the repetition of the said assertion, but no serious analysis; on the Croatian side, I find only the assertion that "Serbs have never been a 'constitutional nation'". Here are 1991 amendments to the constitution [1][2], but due to their "incremental" nature it is hard to see which text was actually deleted. I'd really like to see an analysis to that in a reliable, preferably foreign, source. No such user (talk) 15:37, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

On the Croatian war of Independence, it is sourced from Milan Martić case at ICTY, p.46 [3], which reads:

On 22 December 1990, the Parliament of Croatia adopted a new constitution, wherein

Croatia was defined as “the national state of the Croatian nation and a state of members of other nations and minorities who are citizens: Serbs […] who are guaranteed equality with citizens of Croatian nationality […]”.252 The Serb population in the Krajina region considered that by the adoption of the new constitution, they had been deprived of the right to be a constituent nation in

Croatia, which would include the right of self-determination.253

No such user (talk) 15:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

There is no doubt that they considered they have been deprived of that right but that does not mean they actually had that right. Text doesn't say that a right was removed or denied but merely that they felt it was. In fact as far as I know law of SFRY did not have a category of "constitutional nation".--78.1.116.135 (talk) 16:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

The first Narodne novine reference says:

AMANDMAN LIX

1. U Saboru se osniva Komisija za zaštitu i unapređivanje ravnopravnosti naroda i narodnosti. [...] Kada je na dnevnom redu vijeća Sabora prijedlog akta ili drugo pitanje od interesa za ravnopravnost naroda i narodnosti, nadležno vijeće, na zahtjev Komisije ili na zahtjev deset zastupnika, ovakvom prijedlogu ili pitanju odlučuje dvotrećinskom većinom ukupnog broja svojih članova. Na zahtjev Komisije nadležno vijeće Sabora odgodit će odlučivanje o prijedlogu akta ili drugom pitanju za koje komisija smatra da je od interesa za ravnopravnost naroda i narodnosti. [...]

The ICTY reference is to three testimonies, so we can read them too:

• Ratko Ličina, 14 Aug 2006, T. 6386

Q. Just before the break, and we are about to break shortly, I will put another question to you. Is it possible to give a common feature of the parties which in their name had the term "Croatian"? What was the common political feature and what was the common political goal of these parties which were founded in the course of 1989?

A. The common feature of all Croatian political parties was Croato-centricism and Serbo-phobia. Croato-centricism was manifested through the fact that all of these political parties, Croatian political parties, wanted to redefine Croatian political reality. The Socialist Republic of Croatia, up until that time, was in the constitution defined as a state of two peoples, and Serbian peoples. All of these political parties advocated that the constitutional status granted to the Serb people be terminated.

• 16 Aug 2006, T. 6542-6543

I'm not quoting all the relevant text from it, there's a big discussion and dispute over procedure as well as facts, both with the prosecutor, the defence lawyers and the judge, and in it, the witness ultimately discusses the "Commission on the Equality of Nations and Minorities, or ethnicities, within Croatia" (exactly like above), clarifies that he's not a lawyer and he can't quote a constitution or a law that supports his opinion, instead saying This is my position, and that was the position of all Serbs, the majority of Serbs.

• Witness MM-090, 1 Sep 2006, T. 7563-7573

Pages 7530-7621 redacted. Closed session.

IMO all this in turn supports a limited reading of the Trial Chamber's conclusion, so the anonymous above is correct in the absence of contradictory evidence. The idea was based on perception, a political argument. All Croatian-prefixed parties are painted in a negative light by their political opponent, but on the face of it, it's clear that the parliamentary majority delayed the formation of this commission between February 1990 and December 1990 (per witness Ličina), and removed it in the December 1990 Christmas Constitution (per lack of mention in the text there). Now if a secondary source delved into detail about this, we could actually include something sensible in the article, but at this point, we're down to a single sentence in a first-degree court verdict. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Also, somehow, the reference on the war article seems to point instead to http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/22/world/crisis-in-the-kremlin-croatia-takes-right-to-secede.html?ref=croatia which is an AP story in the NY Times from December 1990 that says:

The new Constitution provides for Croatia to secede from Yugoslavia if two-thirds of the legislature and a simple majority of the electorate approve such a proposal.

That's actually not in conflict with the former Commission, a two-third majority requirement is a common thread. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:35, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

I've cited a secondary source at Croatian War of Independence#cite_note-FOOTNOTEPe.C5.A1i.C4.87199610.E2.80.9311-86, which supports this by saying, among other things:

In some cases, these ethnic diaspora communities viewed the constitutive nature of Yugoslav nationhood as giving them the right to extend the sovereignty of their national “homeland” to the territories they inhabited.

--Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:09, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

That reference should be used here, too. Given some more free time, I'll add it. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 10:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Personal testimony regarding "Dissolution of Yugoslavia"

I am working with the Global Lives Project. There is a video of a Serbian man providing his perspective regarding the Dissolution of Yugoslavia that I would like to add to this page. The video is here, I am in the process of editing out the topics in the video that are not related to the Dissolution of Yugoslavia. Does this seem appropriate? Thoughts? Peter Hogue (talk) 19:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I can't see a video of a random individual talking about the subject being a good addition. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 19:17, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for this very nice video. I think that it can be added to this page within External links section based on common sense.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:19, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Disputed RoK

This is not acceptable. RoK is not part of Breakup of Yugoslavia, and you should not propose that. Also, dont mislead the editors, we have independent sources for a lot of things, but we must follow guidelines and consenuses to edit wikipedia in normal neutral manner, without national pretensions. RoK sovereignty is disputed, and we MUST follow that throughout wikipedia. --WhiteWriter^speaks 17:04, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

The way I've always seen it is that the Break up of Yugoslavia took place from 1991 to 1995, the secessions of Montenegro and Kosovo took place in the aftermath of the Break-up of Yugoslavia; though not directly apart of the break up of Yugoslavia they still remain relevant. However we should not portray Mont and Kos as apart of the original break up of Yugoslavia as they came later and portraying them as such would mislead our readers. Mont's and Kos's secessions belong in the aftermath section. IJA (talk) 17:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Wait, what? Kosovo is not connected to the breakup of Yugoslavia? Kosovo was part of Yugoslavia, now it's not; simple. I realise some editors may be fond of the current content which only describes Kosovo as a province of Serbia, but the encyclopædia must reflect reality.

Reliable sources discuss the Kosovo issue as part of the breakup of Yugoslavia. For instance, this. I can bring more sources if necessary. bobrayner (talk) 09:42, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Read Arbitration Commission of the Peace Conference on Yugoslavia, especially opinion number 8 (the dissolution of the SFRY had completed). It is wrong and against NPOV to include Kosovo in this process.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Are you thinking only of SFRY here? That is not the only meaning of "Yugoslavia", alas. Other sources discussing the breakup of Yugoslavia do not stop with Badinter committee; Kosovo is mentioned as part of the breakup.

At this moment we have editors insistent on portraying actions in Kosovo in 1998-1999 as Yugoslav actions, even though the sources in those articles mostly talk about Serbs. (example) Whitewriter, how do you feel about Antidiskriminator's comment? Did Yugoslavia cease to exist earlier in the 1990s, or not, in your opinion? bobrayner (talk) 15:24, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

It is not about what I think. It is about the topic of this article which is the dissolution of the SFRY: "The breakup of Yugoslavia (the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, also known as "SFR Yugoslavia" or "SFRY") occurred as a result of a series of political upheavals and conflicts during the early 1990s.". There were several different Yugoslavias who broke apart. This article deals with SFRY.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Other sources frame the breakup differently; surely sources take precedence over existing wording in this article...? It would still be helpful to get WhiteWriter's response, anyway. I'm not interested in yet another article which retells a controversial topic in detail - better to link to existing (and more specific) articles, in general - but if sources written post-Badinter treat the Kosovo problem as part of the breakup of Yugoslavia, then this article should comply, I think. bobrayner (talk) 17:16, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

The process of dissolution of SFRY ended in 1992. When the independence of Kosovo was proclaimed in 2008 SFRY did not exist for 16 years. Even if somebody decides to create an article which deals with the dissolution of both SFRY and FRY it also wouldn't include Kosovo issue because the dissolution of FRY happened in 2006, two years before proclamation of Kosovo's independence.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:56, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to the another POV pushing traveling circus process here on wiki, article that deals with the Yugoslavia ends with SFRY (for now). Therefore, if you somehow include all three Yugoslavia in article about it, as i think it should be, we can talk about inclusion of Kosovo in this. But, Arbitration Commission of the Peace Conference on Yugoslavia is unfortunately insurmountable barrier for any logical continuation of Breakup of Yugoslavia after early 1990s. --WhiteWriter^speaks

Antidiskriminator, you keep on commenting in terms of SFRY, but the article title is "Breakup of Yugoslavia". If you're taking the stance that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and its breakup - involving entities that were in the SFRY until recently - should not be covered in the "Breakup of Yugoslavia" article, then I am... shocked. Is that really your stance, or is there a nuance that I have missed? bobrayner (talk) 16:12, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it was state union of Serbia and Montenegro which fall apart in 2006, 15 years after the breakup of Yugoslavia. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:26, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

I actually agree with Tweedledee and Tweedledum here :). "Yugoslavia" is a term that does not really apply to Serbia and Montenegro/FR Yugoslavia, and that's the consensus on the relevant article. "Breakup of Yugoslavia" should not refer to events that concern the successor states. When Yugoslavia broke-up in 1992 - it broke up. Possibly we could add the wars that began during that process of dissolution into the scope, but not wars and states that took place/were declared years and years after Yugoslavia had disappeared. -- Director (talk) 01:03, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

No Montenegro and Kosovo aren't part of the break up of Yugoslavia as Yugoslavia ceased to be a country in 2003. Montenegro ended the state union of Serbia and Montenegro in 2006 and Kosovo broke away from Serbia in 2008. Mont and Kos aren't part of the original break up of Yugoslavia which took place 1991-1995. Lets say Tatarstan became independent from Russia tomorrow, it'd be like trying to incude Tatarstan as part of the break up of the USSR. IJA (talk) 21:23, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Yugoslavia ceased to be a country in 1992. FR Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro is one of its five successor states. The implementation of the 2003 constitution in Serbia and Montenegro is not the event that ended Yugoslavia. It is merely the delayed acknowledgement on the part of one successor state that it is not, in fact, the (sole) continuation of Yugoslavia. A position which was held by every other country in the world since 1992. -- Director (talk) 21:47, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

I also concur with the complaint, we should restore the mention of APs because that's the starting position. We shouldn't entirely censor the story about FRY, obviously, but its final circumstances shouldn't be conflated in the lead section. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:59, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Merge

The Dissolution of Serbia and Montenegro should be merged into this article, it's part of the same context and is small enough to fit. Charles Essie (talk) 20:44, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting that article. However, it is not really in the same context -- it occurred fifteen years later; basically, we have a consensus in the thread above not to include too much information about breakup of Serbia and Montenegro (including Kosovo). The Dissolution of Serbia and Montenegro article is an unnecessary 2-paragraph content fork created in January, so I redirected it to Serbia and Montenegro. Thus, I'll also remove the merge tag from this article. No such user (talk) 07:19, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Neutrality

I think that this article does not follow the WP:NPOV policy because:

1. It fails to present important view about external causes of the breakup (significant influence from outside of Yugoslavia which some authors say was the major cause of the breakup)
2. It gives undue weight to history of ethnic animosity which mostly deal with events that happened more than 50 years before this breakup and were mostly irrelevant for the breakup. After all those events there was a period of 50 years of Brotherhood and Unity in Yugoslavia. It is completely irrelevant for this breakup if Kingdom of Yugoslavia was demographically dominated by Serbs, what orders Draža Mihailović issued or if Croats and Slovenes enjoyed in Austria-Hungary and did not enjoy in Yugoslavia.
3. It gives undue weight to nationalism in SR Serbia and to figure of Slobodan Milošević. Nationalism rose in all former Yugoslav republics (not only Serbia) and all presidents of former Yugoslav republics had a role in the breakup (some of them even initiated secession of their republics).

Any thoughts?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:01, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

If you consider this is the case, please add the material from the "some authors" you allude to (assuming they are RS). Your second and third points are merely your assertions unless supported by RS, but of course if RS exist for your assertions I encourage you to add that material to the article. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:10, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd actually agree that the "history of ethnic animosity" section should be part of a "Background" section, as opposed to a "Causes" section. It's a valid part of the background of this kind of a complex article, but the inference that Yugoslavia broke up because of 1930s and 1940s in an equal manner to the events of the 1980s and 1990s would indeed be farfetched.

External causes are actually discussed already - the loans and debt stuff - but not sufficiently. For example, the description of the period of hyperinflation appears to be missing.

I don't generally agree that the role of Milošević is exaggerated - the general consensus is that he was the protagonist. You'd have to provide examples of the specific exaggerations in the article. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:41, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

When you hear that events of the 1930s and 1940s were the reason of the breakup of The Yugoslavia on par with economic reasons and political, ( either internal like re-awakening of the nationalisms, or external like the fall of the Berlin wall, or the dissolution of the USSR), it seems a little "farfetched" as somebody put it, but if you give it a second thought, it actually does go on par with aforementioned events. It matters in the context of the Serbian rebellion against Croatian authority.

Exactly these events( The Jasenovac labor camp of 1940s etc.) were decisive factor in the mind of the Serbs in Croatia in causing the fear of the than re-emerging Croatian nationalism, which they viewed as a continuation of the Fascist Croatian "legacy" even thinking that Croats are to reopen the concentration camps and simply continue the politics of the Croatian puppet state of the 1940s, and that in turn made them completely support their political leadership(that probably didn't have these delusions) in turning down all of the Croatian calls for peaceful resolution. Such horrific scenario was also lauded by Serbian media, as well as politicians from Belgrade.

What we need to understand is that the fear of the concentracion camps and even outright slaughter at the hands of the newly established Croatian authority, has, among other things moved the Serbs the most to try to secede from Croatia - to avoid extinction - as they feared. If These events of inter ethnic crimes weren't so grave in it's brutality and scope, during the WWII, the Yugoslavian wars might have taken a different, less genocidal route. See Macedonian secession.

Offcourse in that mix, the desire for a revenge was thrown too. Serbs(many of the common people) wanted to avenge their kiled by the hands of the former Ustashe regime of the 1940s, which they counted around million - which was largely exaggerated, but believed nonetheless. Also on Croatian side a theme of revenge for the Chetnik crimes was lingering in the subconsciences of far right para-military organizations, but was never openly expressed, and was practiced only sporadically during the war.

So to conclude I feel that these past events should be named as one of the REASONS of the conflict though, it should be explained in which way were they causes of the conflict. Also it shouldn't be put on the first place among the reasons of the conflict as it is right now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.147.42.118 (talk) 22:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I've moved the bulk of this text to the Background section, and it seems to me that point #2 in the original complaint is addressed now. Does anyone support points #1 and #3? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:23, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree with both of the points(1, and 3), because only when USSR started to change under perestroika, and when communist governments were overthrown in Warsaw pact countries, conditions for free democratic elections in Yugoslav republics were created. Besides this article itself claims that:

"After the death of Tito with the rise of Mikhail Gorbachev, perestroika and glasnost in the Soviet Union, the West felt secure enough in the USSR’s intentions that Yugoslavia was no longer of pivotal strategic importance ... The external status quo, which the Communist Party had depended upon to remain viable was thus beginning to disappear."

Thus implying that external reasons were pretty much important in breaking Yugoslavia's economic power - which led to you know the breakup of Yugoslavia.

It seems to be a great injustice to objective informing that the fact of external causes wasn't even mentioned in the "Causes" section.

Third point is also valid in my opinion, since it is very hard to predict the behavior of the Slovene and Croat democratically elected nationalistic governments, in some imagined case of pro Yugoslavian leadership of SR Serbia. Would they accepted some loosened federation or confederation - it is very hard to tell. But when they saw that Serbian leadership had no intentions of preserving Yugoslavia, The only viable way of these republics was secession. Thus the argument could be made that they were pressured into secession by the threat of the overwhelming Serbian hegemony in Yugoslavia, though independence was probably their most preferred outcome.

And one more thing. In the "Causes" section there is hardly even a mention of the nationalism - which was the main cause of the breakup in the first place.

The following section "Death of Tito and the weakening of Communism (1980–87)" could easily be included/merged with "Causes" section. If not, we get into this funny situation where we name the most important reasons for the event of the breakup,and than go on to never again mention them in the whole article at all (because they obviously weren't all that important in the first place).

Now imagine that Yugoslavia didn't have these "nationalisms feature". Would these "Causes" really caused civil war in the country? Or interstate conflict? No, these "causes" would have caused only fall of the communism - as it has been the case in all of the Warsaw pact states. Every communist multi ethnic state of Europe has dissolved, while none of the homogenous states have experienced any kind of territory loss (except Moldova, but again reason is nationalism) on ideological, political, economical or even religious diversity grounds. Overwhelming reason in every each case of state dissolution was in fact nationalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.147.22.222 (talk) 23:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

The external economic reasons are indeed part of the causes section. Regarding Milošević, I think you actually described a disagreement with the original poster's point #3. They're saying Milošević wasn't pivotal, but you are.

I agree that pre-Milošević stuff doesn't necessarily belong to the breakup itself - changed. I suppose we could say that the death of Tito, the 1981 protests in Kosovo, the SANU memorandum, and the "developed north" stuff, each by itself, weren't a sign of an unavoidable breakup. This change also starts to clarify that the spread of nationalism was among the causes of the breakup.

--Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:10, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Lacking further discussion or editing, I'm removing the POV tag. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:01, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I object. The discussion is not dormant. As one of main contributors to the existing non-neutral text of this article it was particularly wrong to remove the tag yourself Joy. Please revert yourself--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:08, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Sure, but based on what? Your unwillingness to elaborate the problem you seem to have - since June? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 23:34, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Points "#2" & "#3" are mostly bogus, particularly "#3" (Serbian nationalism, riled up by Albanian atrocities in Kosovo, came before all others and directly caused the surge of Croatian and Muslim nationalism; Slovenia can arguably be said to have caused trouble as well, but there we have more "secessionism" as such, for economic reasons, rather than nationalism). But "#1" has some grounds to it, I believe I read some theories about external factors.. The trouble is Antidiskriminator doesn't do the whole "sources thing". -- Director (talk) 14:16, 18 November 2013 (UTC)