Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Man

Unresolved

 – Topic Ban still under discussion for non-sock Editor and can probably be closed by an uninvolved admin by now The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 19:08, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

 – A bunch of socks blocked plus an IP range. Let me or another admin or CU know if the disruption continues. –MuZemike 14:31, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if this is the wrong venue for this (and I expect plenty of people have seen this already). There has been a content dispute going on at Man over an image of a naked man for some time, with an RfC that petered out. In the past few days some of those arguing for the removal have been taking unilateral action by removing the image (one has been blocked, along with a sock), and now removing the {{censor}} tag from the Talk page.

I know it's a content dispute, but I can't help feeling it might help for an uninvolved admin to have a look, offer a judgment on whether any consensus has been achieved and whether the {{censor}} tag should be removed, and recommend the next stage for those who are still dissatisfied. I know it's asking a lot, as it's a very lengthy disagreement, but any who could help would certainly earn my gratitude. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I should just point out here that I haven't deleted the explicit photograph at any stage. SAT85 (talk) 04:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

On the other hand, those in favour of explicit photographs have been edit-warring them in, sans consensus, for several months. SAT85 (talk) 02:03, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

They really could use more opinions there so if anyone has a moment, please take the time to give an opinion. I've already done this for the record. I've asked them to calm down a bit to allow others to come and comment. I don't want this to get out of control which is possible. Thanks in advance, --CrohnieGal^Talk 14:23, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - I'll keep my hands off it now and see what others offer. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Mostly Outside Observation

My only comment was a short statment in the RFC, but I have been observing it for a while. Its been two months of IDIDNTHEARTHAT and quite tedious editing. There may need to sanctions imposed here becuase its a brick wall of one sided dialogue of accusations of Nudist perverts controlling wikipedia The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 15:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me, "Nudist perverts controlling wikipedia". What are you talking about? --CrohnieGal^Talk 15:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Seems to be a fairly accurate summary of what the people saying the pic shouldn't be included are saying. → ROUX ₪ 15:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

@Crohnie: Didnt you know that being supportive of anatomical figure on the page means your a POV Pushing Nudist Pervert? You can see why exactly why i think some action needs to be taken as its been going like this for a while. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 16:11, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Just for info, the dispute goes further back than what's currently on the Talk page - see Talk:Man/Archive_3 too. My main desire here is really just to get the endless argument to stop, to stop the intermittent edit wars, and if necessary get people to progress to some future stage of the resolution process - that's why I was hoping for some reviews of what's gone on already and some opinions on whether any form of consensus was reached (I think the answer to that is obvious, but my opinions don't belong here). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation of that comment. I guess I fall into that category. ;) I think an administrator needs to go and remove the problem editors. Some have been blocked I noticed but if this has been going on for so long than it's time to stop it now. Editor Boing (sorry name too long, hope this will do.) has been kind enough to stop responding to allow others a chance to read and comment. I didn't look at any archives when I commented. To me it was obvious that there is nothing wrong with the male image. I just didn't like the way the montage was set up which can be reworked once the problem about the image is resolved. The only editor still arguing about the nude image is SAT85. Would someone talk to him and get him/her to back off? Thanks, --CrohnieGal^Talk 16:28, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Since when do adult white males lack pubes? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

What Softball Lola doesnt like it shaved there? thats a rarity The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 19:27, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

She likes lotsa hare. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 20:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

As an update, we have just had another attack from someone else starting an edit war to remove the image, and the article is now protected. I really think we need someone to force this to a resolution by some means, as it cannot go on indefinitely like this - I'm open to any suggestions. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Oddly enough, I don't see any corresponding edit war at Woman. Maybe what's needed is a more clinical illustration rather than what looks like some show-off editor's self-portrait. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that does seem strange, though there does appear to have been some argument about the images on Woman. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:15, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

That was the first thing I checked on too. Double standards ftl. Resolute 19:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I posted this on the talk page, but then realized the discussion had moved here. I agree that a more clinical picture or perhaps a sketch could be a compromise. Here is my original statement:

Outside perspective: Saw this thread on ANI. The image is useful and has a purpose, and the article would NOT be improved if it was removed. The picture illustrates in a clinical, NPOV way that a men are visibly different from women, in that they generally have flatter chests, more muscular builds, and, more specifically, a penis. Note that the Woman article includes a picture of a naked woman. The Boy article has a picture of naked boys (non-clinical; they are swimming). The Girl article does not contain nudity. If anything, the picture is blurry and is not of good quality. Could a sketch or drawing of a nude male be a compromise? Still, the "does removing it improve the article" argument is going to be hard to overcome for the exclusionist camp. It seems to me that those wanting to get rid of the picture in this article would most likely be in favor of removing all nudity from Wikipedia. I am sure there is a forum for that discussion somewhere. If so, perhaps someone could link to it. The Eskimo (talk) 20:59, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

It seems like all those things are addressed by the Davinci picture further down in the article.--Crossmr (talk) 22:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

This is just a suggestion, but I think some of the recommended remedies at WP:PUSH should be employed with regard to SAT85 (talk · contribs) --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 23:05, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

SAT85 was created a year ago, made a handful of edits, and then "sat" dormant for a year before becoming an SPA on this topic. Most curious. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi Bugs (if I can call you that). I created my account a year or two ago mainly to make a couple of linguistic contributions. I haven't got myself very involved since then, but to me the nude photograph seemed to represent a deliberate step in the wrong direction--unnecessary in the non-anatomical article in question and below the standards of professional encyclopaedias for such pages (see Homo Sapiens in Britannica online). Cheers, SAT85 (talk) 02:30, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It clearly illustrates the subject, period. Objections to its inclusion boil down solely to prudery, period. It's a naked body in a wholly nonsexual context. Guess what? We all have naked bodies. Deal with it. → ROUX ₪ 02:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Heck, I'm naked right now. That was too much information, wasn't it? HalfShadow 02:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

All of these objections to deletion (or replacement with a diagram) have been discussed on the Talk:Man page. This is not about hypersensitivity or prudishness--it is about achieving an emphasis in the lead image that reflects the typically clothed state of men, and about the sort of standards expected of an encyclopaedia (hence see this policy). Regards, SAT85 (talk) 03:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

In a word: bullshit. Define 'typically clothed' state of men? What is 'typical' clothing for a Kalahari Bushman? Or indigenous peoples in the Amazon? Or at a nudist colony? What is 'typical' clothing for a man in Minnesota, Yemen, Romania, Antarctica? This is entirely--as it always is--about prudes being terrified that other people might see OH MY GOD NO a naked human being. Period. → ROUX ₪ 03:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

As a rule, men wear clothing (I can provide a reference if this is what you have a problem with)--Typically doesn't mean invariably. There is currently a silly and unencyclopaedic emphasis on nudity. And as I said earlier, I have no qualms about explicit anatomical diagrams in the appropriate places. SAT85 (talk) 03:55, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

In an article about "Man", it is an appropriate place. Yours seems to be a "silly and unencyclopaedic" quest. WP:NOTCENSORED, get over it. Heiro 04:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Where is this "silly" emphasis? Just in this article, or more broadly in society? HiLo48 (talk) 04:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, that sentence was a bit ambiguous--in the article. If it was in society as a whole I wouldn't bother with getting the image removed or replaced. SAT85 (talk) 04:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm lazy to check the history but the article currently includes multiple images most men with clothes on. I presume it has always done that. I agree it would be silly to fill the article with pictures of nude men and nothing else but I see nothing wrong with include one or more appropriate images of what a man looks like without clothes. Nil Einne (talk) 14:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi. There are three such images in the article already; this dispute is about the gratuitous photograph, and in particular its prominence at the top left of the collage. SAT85 (talk) 01:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Wait a minute here. This is really all about the penis, isn't it? Let's call a spade a spade, and discuss if the model had underpants on, would we be losing something important to describe Man? It seems like everything else is just dancing around the fact that we are talking about penises. The Eskimo (talk) 02:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Of course we are. Nobody would suggest that cat not have a picture of a cat, or that chimpanzee shouldn't have a picture of an engine (and they're naked all the time, genitals hanging out and everything). Ergo, man has a picture of a man, without clothing, to illustrate what a man looks like. I find it tedious in the extreme, and depressingly predictable, that the people most concerned with AHMAHGAWD TEH CHILLUNS invariably see sex everywhere. Gives a clue to what's going on in their heads. The rational rest of the world sees a naked human being. Ho hum. Yawn. The regressive paleocons see OH NO A NAKED SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX. I see absolutely no reason why we should even pretend to entertain the notion that they have a valid viewpoint. Wikipedia is not fucking censored. Deal with it. → ROUX ₪ 03:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

And, isn't there always Wikipedia:Options to not see an image? Saebvn (talk) 03:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Do have a look at the talk page, where we have discussed the fact that the lead image in Hermit Crab portrays a shelled crab. In my view the issue is quite straightforward, and the real tedium consists in having to go through the minutiae of what explict means in the OED, when an image looks dirty and when one does not, why private anatomy should not be considered exactly the same as other anatomy (just as, ceteris paribus, pictures of decomposing corpses would be uploaded less freely than pictures of live humans, non-censorship notwithstanding)--and so on. You obviously have a very different notion of propriety to me, so let's both of us defer to the standards of Britannica. Best Regards, SAT85 (talk) 03:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

As the 3 above users have stated, agree. Especially Roux comments. Heiro 03:27, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored, so if the image is used for encyclopedic purposes only--as all Wikipedia images should (i.e. used in accordance with Wikipedia policy), then its use in the article is justified. [|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|] 03:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

The reason I hate situations like this: some guy visits one of those articles mentioned above (for example, boy) not expecting that there will be a nude picture (something other than an obvious anatomical diagram) there. He later takes his computer to another country and finds out they can search your hard drive as you enter. If he hasn't cleared his cache and otherwise scrubbed the image from his computer, he may now be in a legal mess over what may otherwise be an "innocent" image. Kcowolf (talk) 04:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Best reason ever for censorship. The secret police in another country might not understand why I have a picture on my computer. Heiro 04:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Just trying to say, some of us have reasons other than "Protect the children!" to prefer removing the image. Obviously consensus is against my opinion, and I respect that. Kcowolf (talk) 03:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Obviously we all come from different backgrounds. I think it's worth describing my perspective. High school science teacher. A regular occurrence is a visit to our city's museum, a great place with 1000s of kids visiting every day. It has wonderful, life sized, naked, accurate models of humans of all ages which all the kids see, close up. It's just the culture where I come from. To do as SAT85 is suggesting and hide this image in this article is just kinda weird to me. The kids in my town would wonder why, as I do. In fact, to want to hide the non-sexualised naked body, presented for informational purposes, is in some ways obscene to me. While I accept that there are other views, I think that the knowledge that an encyclopaedia will likely contain nudity should be enough for those who want to avoid it. HiLo48 (talk) 07:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Suggest reducing protection level

All of the registered accounts that have been edit warring the image out of the article [1] are blocked for abusive sockpuppetry or vandalism. For all of his argumentation, SAT85 has been well-behaved in mainspace -- he hasn't removed the photograph [2]. Since there's no reason to let multi-sock disruption lock everyone except admins out of editing, I suggest lowering the protection level to semi, and adding level two pending changes protection. Any almost-new accounts that suddenly appear to remove the image should be blocked per WP:DUCK; the accept=reviewer pending changes protection will ensure that even if the sockpuppet accounts manage to bypass the semi-protection, they will be unable to alter the article that most readers see. If we let them keep Man locked indefinitely, disrupting the normal editorial process, then the sockpuppets win. Peter Karlsen (talk) 07:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. The consensus that is emerging here and at Talk:Man appears to be to keep the image and not allow it to be censored, and the Talk discussion seems to be moving on to how best to present the collage. The only really disruption (other than endless arguing on the Talk page) is indeed from SPAs and socks who unilaterally delete the image. I don't believe they will accede to the community consensus here and won't go away. So yes, I think level 2 PC would be the best longer term approach here. I also think it would be good for one of the admins here to summarize the developing consensus, in the Talk page ANI section, at a suitable point, so if the argument carries on, we can point to that. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure what gives you the impression that the "consensus that is emerging here and at Talk:Man appears to be to keep the image". Most contributors seem to think that it looks out of place and that the entire collage should be reworked without it. Quite a few people have commented that Michaelangelo's David and the two other anatomical diagrams lower down are sufficient. SAT85 (talk) 10:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

No, it is simply untrue that "most" contributors think it should be removed - you can't have been reading all the latest comments if you think that. Yes, many think the collage could be improved, so how about we drop the "Urgh, nasty evil nudity" stuff, which has been pretty roundly rejected, and just let people get on with constructive work now? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

What Zebedee said, Heiro 13:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree to lowering the protection and using the pending changes as suggested above. I also think that SAT85 is behaving in a serious way of tendentious editing that needs to stop already. For this editor to claim that editors are saying to remove the image is just plain wrong. Yes, we have said the collage needs to be reworked and some other ideas but removing the image isn't one of them unless things changed lately. This editor has be relentlessly commenting and keeping the discussion going in circles which is not at all helpful in my opinion. I don't know who agrees with me but if you look at the talk page I think you can see what I am talking about. I am not a regular editor to this article. I went there because of the AN/i report asking for more eyes from Boing! said Zebedee. There has been a good turn out too to respond to that request which also can be seen at the talk page. It's time to stop the circular arguements and allow the regular editors to get on with improving this article. Thanks for listening, --CrohnieGal^Talk 19:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi again. It would be more helpful if you addressed the substance of the dispute instead of engaging in this sort of commentary. It seems to me that your first reaction to the image was the correct one, when you said, "I am not offended at all by the human body but I have to say that the image looks out of place in that collage. What is the need for it there? There is a statue down in the article. I just don't think the image is needed in the collage unless someone has a reason I missed in the above comments." Best regards, SAT85 (talk) 23:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes. We can not forget Help:Options to not see an image. Wikipedia is not censored, so if the image is used in accordance with Wikipedia policy, then its use in the article is justified, and thus, just becuase some people do not want to see it, does not mean that it should be removed from the article. Just choose the options necessary so that only you can not see the image, other people can still see it if they want to. I do agree with the proposed protection level changes. [|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|] 23:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the protecting administrator, Bongworrior, refuses to reduce the protection level in the manner for which there is a clear consensus here, because he believes that it would be unfair to to the abusive sockpuppeteer creating an endless supply of accounts (Special:Contributions/We233ws Special:Contributions/Smzugzwangerq Special:Contributions/Itiiti2itiitiitiitiitiitiiti) to remove the image. I encourage editors to participate directly in the discussion on his user talk page to help clear this matter up. Peter Karlsen (talk) 04:28, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the protection should be lowered to PC, but I also see a possible benefit in leaving as it is for a little while longer - I've commented at Bongwarrior's Talk. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:45, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Topic Ban?

SAT85 (talk · contribs) has been engaged in tedious editing at Talk:Man with a month of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:CPUSH. Frankly after multiple editors in ANI and there have communicated with him. Its a rather large farce to engage in any more Dialogue. I honestly almost could mistake this for deliberate trolling at the rate its going.

Support as nom The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 02:43, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi there. I wonder if, to avoid the impression of bias, you might also want to consider David Oakes, Boing! Said Zebedee, and others who have not only been doggedly engaged on the Talk:Man page longer than I have, but have been edit-warring over the photo as well (though I personally think that banning any editor here would be a silly case of censorship--and I have no issue with either of them besides a disagreement over content). Cheers, SAT85 (talk) 03:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Reverting the operator of some (now blocked) abusive sockpuppet accounts (Special:Contributions/We233ws Special:Contributions/Smzugzwangerq Special:Contributions/Itiiti2itiitiitiitiitiitiiti), and almost certainly the IPs as well, is not considered to be edit warring. Peter Karlsen (talk) 03:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is that sock puppet accounts have only been used recently, by a user exasperated at being banned for removing the controversial photo. If you follow the history back, I think you'll see that it has indeed been repeatedly edit-warred back in without consensus. SAT85 (talk) 04:22, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Ony if by "edit-warred back in without consensus" you mean that respected editors have repeatedly reversed the disruptive actions of We233ws (who was actually banned, for amongst other things, abusive sockpuppetry), his army of IP socks, and a one edit single purpose account (the situation since September 28 of this year [3].) This deplorable behaviour certainly detracts from any claim that there's a legitimate editorial dispute here. Peter Karlsen (talk) 04:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

We233ws was just one of many users involved. Moreover, calling supporters of the explicit photo "respected editors" (when they were edit-warring--do have a look at the history) and then lashing a disillusioned user for "deplorable behaviour" suggests a fairly substantial bias on your part. I would once again respectfully encourage you to focus on policy and rationale--"ganging up" with six or seven supporters and attempting to muscle through is a poor way to approach genuine content disputes. SAT85 (talk) 06:03, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, well, the suggestion that consensus is "ganging up" and "muscling through" when things don't go your way does, I think, say a lot here. Anyway, I have not been active in the discussion longer than SAT85 - I joined in the argument quite late to try to help it towards resolution. I have not been in breach of 3RR, and reverting the anti-consensus removal by a sockmaster and his socks in tandem with other editors seems like legitimate anti-vandal action to me. I have not refused to stop repeating the same arguments over and over again when there is clearly a consensus against me. Further, I have been happy to bring the issue here for help in resolution, to listen to the opinions offered by the people here who have been trying to help (and who have my thanks), and to shut my mouth for a bit and not approach it by trying to drown out everyone else. I have also made it clear that I am happy to abide by consensus whichever way it goes, and if the community decides to remove the image that's fine with me. All I want to do is get this argument stopped so people can move on constructively. I see nothing whatsoever in that which would call for a topic ban on me, but anyone is, of course, welcome to propose one and see how it goes. (As an involved party, I will not !vote on this proposal) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:41, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I had forgotten that you (unlike David Oakes) joined this discussion at the RfC. I actually joined quite late in the piece as well--a little after you (see the RfC). And by "ganging up" I am not referring to a genuine consensus--the consensus over time has been to remove the photo. Cheers, SAT85 (talk) 07:48, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Does it at all concern you that a number of respected editors not only disagree with your claim that "the consensus over time has been to remove the photo", but are actually supporting topic banning you for endlessly and falsely asserting it? The human body has been considered an expression of beauty and the subject of art for millennia, such as this classical sculpture, and File:Bouguereau venus detail.jpg. Is a photograph really more "indecent" than a statue or full color painting? If you disagree with WP:NOT#CENSORED, then the Citizendium and Conservapedia, both of which have "family friendly" policies prohibiting photographic nudity, may prove to be more hospitable editing environments. Peter Karlsen (talk) 08:22, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't concern me in the least, or particularly surprise me--I have obviously stepped on some ideological toes. It is not clear to me why you think that I have been "endlessly and falsely repeating" the claim that the weight of opinion over time has been against the picture. As I recall I've made the observation once or twice, and if you consult the archives, you will see that it's true. For the rest, see the Talk:man page. Regards, SAT85 (talk) 09:19, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

There was a censored David up on the page for a short time in September. —Soap— 18:07, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, my mistake, SAT85 and I did both start contributing at about the same time (Oct 2 and Sep 28 respectively). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:29, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

By the way, the "Wikipedia is not censored" line has been repeated a lot more than the reasons for deletion (all quite straightforward, in my view). I accept that the recent consensus of six or seven chaps from AN/i--together with attempts to censor the rest of us--is making further efforts to improve the page pretty futile at this stage (though it does seem to be now generally recognised that the collage should represent men in natural costumes). Alas for policy, readership and professionalism. Anyway, it has been an interesting discussion, if a bit tedious at times, and I have found you cordial to deal with. Cheerio for now, SAT85 (talk) 07:48, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support, as someone who keeps trying to get User:SAT85 to read WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Heiro 03:02, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support While, in his defence, he hasn't edit warred the image out of the article itself, the excessive and repetitious argumentation of a lost cause is disruptive. Peter Karlsen (talk) 03:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support Once an editor gets on the moebius strip and won't get off, some action is needed to derail it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support - This has gone way past any honest attempt to support a minority view into talk page disruption. If SAT85 won't drop the stick, it's time to take it away from him. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 06:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support - and would support the same in the future for any editor attempting to censor the encyclopedia. → ROUX ₪ 11:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Putting the claim about censorship to one side, this encapsulates the real motive behind banning: WP:IDONTIKEYOURVIEW. SAT85 (talk) 01:05, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support - if ya wanna get a guy to be more cooperative, a topic ban will help. GoodDay (talk) 11:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic ban from the Man and Talk:Man pages. There's only so many times you can tell a person something. If they don't want to hear it, they won't, and it's time to cut them loose. -Atmoz (talk) 15:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support There needs to be something in place to prevent further disruption. I would suggest a 1 year topic ban. Inka888^ContribsTalk 21:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Suggestion - It might be useful if those expressing an opinion here also indicate whether they support nude photography in the non-anatomical page in question. This should help to clarify the extent to which partisanship is involved. SAT85 (talk) 01:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support WP:IDHT ; Disruption Fifelfoo (talk) 01:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Question: What's the scope of the proposed topic ban? I hope it's not "man"...see WP:TBAN. T. Canens (talk) 01:51, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oops yes that would be bad. Scope SAT85 (talk · contribs) is restricted from all articles involving media with nudity or from adding such media to ones where there is none. there that covers pointy additions as well The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:57, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support SAT85 has just lost credibility in my eyes by connecting the non-sexualised picture of an adult male with child pornography. A stupid and inflammatory contribution. HiLo48 (talk) 03:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I hope I've cleared up this misunderstanding on the other page, Hilo. I was not connecting the two, just trying to offer an example of something we all consider to be inappropriate on Wikipedia; the point was that WP:NOTCENSORED is not absolute. If you browse back through the Talk page, you'll see that others discussed child pornography before I did. Best regards, SAT85 (talk) 04:52, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support Is strange that only with man and never with woman, so for prevent he continue doing it (though I do not think so) he cannot contribute positively with only one pic. Tbhotch^{Talk C.} 04:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment I think it should be noted that the editors who are against adding this image, there appears to be two now, with another who just showed up as a new account, is religious reasons. The quoting of the bible finally appeared when there was nothing left in policy to use. You can find the comments quoted in this section. I think the time has come to allow the article to be opened for editing and the editors arguing against the addition to be told to either stop or be removed from the discussions now. The arguements have also been that having an image of a naked man is the same as child porn to the taliban which shows how out of control this discussion has become. I don't want to have to remove anyone but the time has come for this to stop either by the editors doing so themselves or by force. I'm hoping for the editors to accept the consensus and stopping on their own. If they won't then I do support banning them from this article. Thanks for listening, --CrohnieGal^Talk 10:18, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be a reasonable person, CrohnieGal, so I think it is worth clarifying here that in my view nothing has been advanced to counter the charge that WP:NPOV, WP:PROFANE and wikipolicy on what professional encyclopaedias include are triggered by the insistence on the nude photograph in its current position when three other nude illustrations are already included. Moreover, if you have another look at Ben Dawid's citation of the Bible, I think you'll agree that he was candidly elaborating on his own convictions (something we could do with a bit more of here)--not in that instance trying to get the picture removed. As I said earlier, though, with policy and rationale a fading force, and no fair attempt to find a consensus among the readership of Man, I have little more to offer here--banning or no banning. But thanks for the more neutral tone. Cheers, SAT85 (talk) 13:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Appeals to a silent majority cannot be used to override consensus. A consensus in an RfC is determined by the analysis of the people who actually contribute to the RfC. However, I will say that if there were such a silent majority, I'm sure we'd have heard about it long before now. —Soap— 18:07, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

(i) The majority has not been silent. All of this was dismissed with the red herring that consensus cannot trump WP:NOTCENSORED. Now that we have an editorial clique from AN/i stampeding over the policy-based, rationally-defensible concerns of the rest of us, "consensus" is back in the ball-park. (ii) If you are genuinely convinced that the readership of Man now supports your view of the matter, conduct the experiment: put a neutrally-worded template on the page itself, indicating that the dispute is over photographs, not images, remove the partisan disclaimer (since "standards of decency", not "censorship" is the key phrase here), and see what unfolds. This would not be bulletproof, since quite a lot of people who unsuspectingly bump into the photo at (e.g.) work or school are likely to click back without further ado, but if there was a very clear majority in favour I would consider the reasons for removal not worth persuing. No doubt this suggestion is unnecessary, superfluous, unfair or even perhaps "deplorable", but a guy who stands back and observes a no will, I think, suspiciously scratch his head. SAT85 (talk) 23:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I see you've altered your previous arguments somewhat, as the "many editors" in the current discussion, which you had previously invoked for support, have now been reduced to yourself, and maybe one other... and a sock farm. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:32, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

You've spent a lot more time worrying about sock puppetry than focussing on the issues--you seem to have trouble with the idea that "IRL" there are a good many of us who find nude photography in commonplace areas ridiculous. A lot of the people from AN/i initially echoed this view about Man, but some of them apparently jettisoned common sense when they suspected that an ideological skirmish was underway. Anyway, you can have the last word. Cheers, SAT85 (talk) 12:48, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

This is not a "commonplace area", it's the internet. If you don't like what you see on the internet, then don't use the internet. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:04, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Draconian solutions do not work. And the precedent of banning anyone on the basis of their opinions is contrary to WP fundamental policy. We can tolerate dissent here if anywhere. And if we squash "wrong opinions" here, there is no way to prevent it happening everywhere on WP. Collect (talk) 10:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • We are not banning him for his opinion, but the manner he chose to express it. T. Canens (talk) 11:35, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • I typically agree against such things, as a respectable minoritiy should never be silenced. But a month of Tedious Discussion make it clear this editor needs help Dropping the stick and backing away from the horse carcass The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 22:19, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have to agree. This editor refuses to follow consensus and keeps talking in circles. The last few comments prior to my posting here shows the frustrations of other editors of the comments made by SAT85. It's time to stop it and allow the article to begin normal editing now. I am really sorry but it is time. --CrohnieGal^Talk 23:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support Slightly regretfully, as SAT85 has been unfailingly civil. However, as long as he continues to repeat arguments that do not reflect policy or consensus, and to misrepresent consensus on the Man discussion, this debate will never end.--Korruski^Talk 23:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

whack a puppet?

Resolved see SPI for more information The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 18:20, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
One just popped up on Talk:Man the number of SPA on this topic is quite annoying. sock or meat? dont know dont care The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:42, 4 November 2010 (UTC) For the record see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/We233ws The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 21:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Span id around image?

Maybe I could wrap the image with a span Id to hopefully calm this down. That way the editors who REALLY don't want to see it could hide it through CSS code. Access Denied – talk to me 07:48, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Is that how the Muhammad images are handled? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

User talk:Eugeneacurry requests unblock

I note that User:Eugeneacurry, who was blocked for creating an article about an editor with whom he was in an edit-war on June 19, has posted a third request for unblock on his talk page. Once again, this is an unblock that might require a little consensus-forming, so I place it here: you may discuss amongst yourselves. I have put the unblock request on hold.  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 22:42, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• - note - here is the last unblock discussion at ANI, closed as no consensus to unblock a little over three months ago. Off2riorob (talk) 22:51, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Personally, I think it's a bit soon to be considering unblock. I'd be interested to see rationals supporting unblock and User:SlimVirgin's opinion. Tiderolls 23:32, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I emailed SV hours ago, right after Eugene posted the request. No idea when she'll see it, though. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:42, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support unblock- It's been four months, and Eugeneacurry has agreed to not repeat the problematic behaviour. Indefinite blocks are not supposed to be the same as infinite blocks, and are only supposed to prevent disruption. If Eugeneacurry acts up again, he can be blocked again. Reyk _YO! 23:47, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Eugeneacurry made that identical commitment three days into his block. I agree that his actions in the short term will be under intense scrutiny, which is the main reason I'm not strenuously opposing unblock. However, harassment is a practice that must be suppressed with diligence. That's my main concern. Tiderolls 00:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Sure, that's fair enough. I've never had anything to do with Eugene but per WP:AGF I'd prefer to believe that they were sincere three days into their block and sincere now. Reyk _YO! 00:09, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• I feel obliged to oppose an unblock. The actions of creating a nasty attack page (which had to be oversighted) making all sorts of allegations about an editor with whom he was in a minor dispute are not the actions of somebody well suited to a consensus-based project. Eugene is intelligent, he knew exactly what he was doing and, I believe, how egregious it was when he wrote that attack page. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:41, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• We do not and should not usually indef ban (which this essentially is) editors for one-off offenses. Yes, he made a mistake. A terrible one. But I think he understands how tight of a leash he would be on, and I would highly doubt that anything like this would happen again. NW (Talk) 00:49, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• I oppose unblock as well. This isn't the one-off event all the people above are claiming; besides the sheer nastiness of his attack page—which frankly AGF doesn't apply to, as it can't possibly be explained away as a misunderstanding—since then Eugene's also been using his talkpage to engage in some rather spiteful bitchiness, and to canvass for people to POV-war on his behalf. I see no good from allowing someone who thinks this is appropriate back to stir the pot again. – iridescent 00:50, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Both of those are from the end of July and the beginning of August. It has been over four months since then. Perhaps things would go better with a topic/interaction ban on top of everything else? NW (Talk) 00:56, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Still oppose; a topic ban would be effectively meaningless in his case. He only has one interest—more than 50% of all his mainspace edits are to Jesus myth theory, and the rest are almost all to related pages—and that's the one page he's certain to remain topic-banned from, given the way he behaved on it in the past. – iridescent 01:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - I don't think anyone wants a repeat of that last kerfuffle, frankly this user's been given way too many chances and we can only WP:AGF so much... insulting a user is bad enough but creating a MAINSPACE attack page is just pushing it. —Ғяіᴆaз'§Đøøм • Champagne? • 12:06pm • 01:06, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

No opinion, but the last thing the pages dealing with the historicity of Jesus needs is a disruptive editor. A topic-ban might be a good compromise. Let him prove he can edit other topics in a collaborative way, before going back to the extremely controversial topic that got him blocked previously. Noloop (talk) 01:19, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Per Noloop, what indeed are these editors intentions should they be unblocked? Apologising for the singular incident, and promising not to repeat it, is fine, but what do they intend to do were the block to be lifted? LessHeard vanU (talk) 02:07, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment- He didn't get blocked because of anything to do with historicity of Jesus pages, so that point is irrelevant. Since he has been strongly opposed to your POV, Noloop, as I have, your comment seems to me in all honesty to be self-serving and should consequently be rejected as not having any bearing on his matter. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 02:33, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't he blocked for disputes arising from Jesus-related articles? I've never edited with him, so I don't actually know his POV in depth, or whether I oppose it, or the detailed history of the dispute. And since I gave no strong opinion on this question, but expressed weak support for unblocking, you're seeming a bit catty, Bill. Noloop (talk) 15:21, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support unblock- per NW and Reyk. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 02:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose the man is an unreconstructed POV warrior. MtD (talk) 02:29, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• Never Not just no, but no until after the heat death of the universe. What he did was absolutely unforgivable- you do NOT create an attack page about a fellow editor trying to out them. No, no, no. The only thing this behaviour merits is throwing away the key. Whenw e're done here, can we lock his talk page, please? Courcelles 02:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

  Oh, get over yourself. The issue should never be that he was less than gentlemanly to SV. Seriously, she can chew through metal. A little old attack page is beside the point. The real question is can we trust this strong holder of odd beliefs to be a constructive editor? I think not. MtD (talk) 02:43, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• A "(redacted)"? Ok, let's see...in the past, he has been falsely accused of being an anti-Semite (in which case nothing was ever done; the person got a free pass), there has been an implication of him being ok with pedophilia, and now he's a "religious loony". Why do I get the feeling that Eugene is not going to get a fair hearing here? Hmmmmm.... Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 03:16, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

You're supposed to say "Ack"! Remember? Doc talk 03:22, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

LOL, you made my day! (So few people are familiar with the user name I have chosen.) Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 03:53, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock, but can we be careful with language please? --John (talk) 03:26, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose -I have great difficulty believing that there's been a sea-change in his view of the world, and that's what it would take. I see no reason that we should expose ourselves once again to the problems this editor caused, and is likely to cause again. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:28, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

His "view of the world"??? How about we put a condition on his unblock? If he just denies that there is a god (especially the "Christian God"), becomes a "faithful" militant atheist, or at the very least a quiet agnostic, then he can become "one with the body" again. Is that what you mean? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 03:53, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Sheesh, a little AGF, please: His "view of the world" is that a certain truth has to be told, and as long as he holds this view and sees Wikipedia as the medium through which he can promote his views, he should not be unblocked. All editors have to edit from a stance of NPOV, no matter what their views, and he has shown himself to be incapable of doing that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:53, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support unblock with a full indefinite topic ban on issues relating to Christianity, broadly construed (to include article pages, talk pages, as well as userspace), as well as enhanced civility requirements (like those put on BI restriction). If the editor violates those restrictions, then xe will then be reblocked and directed to the WP:STANDARDOFFER. If xe is nothing but a POV warring SPA, than xe will obviously be unable to follow the restrictions and be rapidly re-blocked, with little likely harm done to the project. If the editor could show something like 6-12 months of productive work on areas outside of the topic ban, as well as no incivility anywhere, then the topic ban could be re-considered. But right now it seems like Eugenacurry got de facto banned without a full ban discussion taking place. If what xe did was so egregious that xe's never welcome back on the project, then we should hash that out at WP:AN and make the ban official. But it seems improper to me to essentially dangle the option of unblocking in front of the editor with no intention of ever actually unblocking. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

No one "dangled" anything. He asked to be reinstated almost immediately, and it's been clear since then that he hadn't done or said anything sufficient to convince the community that he had changed. It's called an indefinite block - there's no set length, and there's also no guarantee that it will necessarily end. Whether it does or not is up to the blocked user. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:57, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

By definition, an indefinite block implies the possibility of unblocking--that's the whole reason we distinguish between bans and indefinites, right? And so if it's up to the user, what is xe supposed to do to demonstrate xe belongs back in the project? If it's "go edit another project and prove you're capable of being nice," then we should say that. If it's "explain exactly what you did wrong and what you will do to ensure it doesn't happen again," then we should say that. But if it's just "do some more hard thinking, because you what you did was very very wrong..." well, it's hard for me to read that as punitive rather than preventative. Or if you/others have come to the opinion that "since xe requested unblocking too soon, xe's blown xs shot," then say that. Note that I'm expressing no opinion on whether or not xe should be banned, as no case has been made regarding that yet--perhaps this person deserves to be permanently shown the door. But my reaction comes in large part because a number of people posted above that they will never or probably never accept this editor returning. Well, that's not really leaving it in Eugeneacurry's hands, is it? Qwyrxian (talk) 07:29, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

If he's not made any real effort to show that he understands what his problems were before -- not just the attack page, but his entire Wikicareer as a POV-pusher -- than how is anyone supposed to believe he's changed in order to believe it won't be harmful to the project to give him another chance? Wishful thinking isn't such a great criteria for a community to run by (AGF doesn't apply here, he's blown that already and needs to earn it back). No, things are definitely in his hands. He's got to work to convince the skeptics that he should be allowed to come back, and that's going to be difficult, because he's put himself into a deep deficit situation. Not impossible, though -- but it is true that it probably will never happen if all he does is ask again at intervals, so if that's his chosen course of action, he might as well give up. In the meantime, there's no reason to community ban him, as he's not a threat to the peace of the community. As far as I know there's no evidence of socking, or editing with an IP. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

He seems contrite in his comments. We need to hear from SV, the target of that page. But before considering unblocking any editor who goes way over the line, it's a good idea to watch this short feature (try to ignore the ads) and consider the question, Does this[4] fit the situation? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:34, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• support unblock We spending time here discussing an Unblock. the beauty of Block are is there is no need to have a lengthy discussion. Any admin can block him the moment he steps out of line. Lets give him a chance. I am would be interested in hearing from Slim Virgin as her comment is much needed and will affect my position The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 15:30, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

The problem with the adamant "NEVER" of Courcelles and others is that it is not enforceable. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia anyone can edit. Ultimately, if this editor decides he's not going to succeed working through accepted channels, he may very well just decide to sock-puppet. In that case, we've further alienated an editor and incentivized disruptive editing over collaborative editing. Giving 2nd, 3rd...8th chances isn't just a Wikipedia philosophy, it is mostly necessary due to the privacy policies. Noloop (talk) 15:27, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment On his talk page, Eugene has acknowledged the attack page was intended to destabilise SlimVirgin and expressed regret. If blocks were punitive or exemplary I'd recommend it not be lifted for 15 years. But they're meant to be preventative. He has also undertaken to treat other editors with respect in future, and agreed to submit to civility restrictions.

  I found him so difficult to work with in the past, and find it so difficult to forgive him for the attack page, that I cannot bring myself to support unblocking, but I won't oppose. However, if the block is lifted, and he continues ad hominem editing, I will take action to have him permanently banned from this site. Anthony (talk) 16:52, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support unblock - He has promised not to let us down. Let's give him a chance to keep his promise. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:25, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support unblock But if there is more bullshit it should result in an indefinite hardblock. Inka⁸⁸⁸ 18:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose per Iridescent, but if we really must unblock then a topic ban as suggested by Qwyrxian would appear to be a prerequisite. Black Kite (t) (c) 18:39, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock. Give it a year from the original block and I will swallow my misgivings, but for now I see no reason to consider this. Even Wikipedia:Standard offer suggests six months, which would be early next year. This is not a case where a generally sensible, respected, and productive editor made a particularly egregious mistake. This is a tendentious inveterate edit warrior who has engaged in extensive gaming of the system and shows long term disregard for the standards of civility and collaboration expected of editors here. Leaving aside religious myths and historicity, we have:
  • Posting to AN/I with an unwarranted assumption of bad faith. This is an attempt to game the system against SlimVirgin back at the beginning of May.
  • Edit warring a vast misunderstanding of the standards of scholarship in science and unwillingness to deal productively with other editors (see talkpage at the time). This included adding {{dubious}} to the statement While the detailed particle physics mechanism responsible for inflation is not known, the basic picture makes a number of predictions that have been confirmed by observation. See also related AN3 report.
  • Edit warring an op-ed attack piece into the {{Press}} template on a talkpage despite clear talkpage consensus that the link would be inappropriate ([5], [6], [7]). This piece contains claims that would violate WP:BLP against editors here had they been written onsite. This is a very disturbing pattern that I hope will be considered by those supporting an unblock above.
  • The AN3 report filed just before Eugeneacurry created that attack article is also instructive: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive133#User:Eugeneacurry reported by User:SlimVirgin (Result:_moot/indef). - 2/0 (cont.) 19:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• Comment. I was asked to comment here. I can't see an unblock working at this time. The attack page was just the tip of the iceberg, though it was illustrative of Eugene's desire to use WP as a battleground. Before that there was serial reverting, strong religious views that brooked no contradiction; an attempt to transport those ideas to at least one physics article; and regular personal attacks against other editors and living sources. I could perhaps support an unblock in future with mentorship and a topic ban (at least for a time) on anything related to Christianity. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 20:41, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - No particular reason to believe this user can change. He was only here to push a POV. --B (talk) 02:18, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support unblock: As the old saying goes on/per WP:ROPE: "Give 'em enough rope, and they'll hang themselves." Let's make this his last chance, if he screws it up then he has only himself to blame... nuff said~! --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®} 02:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support unblock As per Dave's suggestion above WP:ROPE and watch the naysayers be proven right or watch the user flower into a productive member of the editing community Hasteur (talk) 04:26, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - Might support unblock after a year with topic ban. ^^James^^ (talk) 10:23, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose based on SlimVirgin's comments, until and unless the party agrees to mentorship and/or a topic ban as proposed by Slim. John Carter (talk) 17:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support unblock with topic ban User appears to want to return in good faith, and blocks are preventative. If he steps out of line he can be blocked. However, it's probably a good idea to avoid Christianity articles for now. --NYKevin @787, i.e. 17:53, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Also I think that some people opposing should look at the user's talk page; this isn't the same commitment all over again. --NYKevin @792, i.e. 18:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• - comment - I have had a little chat with Eugeneacurry on his talkpage here where he states his intensions for editing if his privilages are returned and his willingness to accept a possible interaction restriction as regards the user he wrote the article about and the areas she edits. If something could be arranged as regards some kind of restriction acceptable to all, then I could be moved to support an unblock as there is a chance of a decent contributor. Off2riorob (talk) 18:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Per my comments further above, the only restriction I think would be acceptable would be a restriction from Christianity-related topics (broadly construed); the root cause of all the problems with Eugene was his relentless "sources that agree with me are reliable and neutral, sources that disagree with me are fringe and should be ignored" POV-pushing in that field. Since almost all his history up to now has been in Christianity related material, I'm not sure he'd want that, but if he's willing to accept that—and possibly an "any attacks on anyone and you're out permanently" provision, I don't see why he can't be allowed to come back. – iridescent 18:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. The user objects to being called a "fundamentalist" and a "religious loonie", but apparently has not understood how he has attracted these labels. If I am reading the discussion on his talk page correctly, this is all still about editing religious topics, although he has now understood that a broader approach might increase his overall credibility and thus make things easier for him in that area. I doubt very strongly that the user would be a net benefit to the encyclopedia. He has earned himself an indefinite block, and I don't see why we should let him back after only 4 months of piece in that area. Hans Adler 18:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I was thinking of a three month restriction to - Religion, broadly construed. This would allow the editor to grow into a better editor without editing the area he has a very strong opinion about and that caused him the previous issues, and as Iridesant says, a very short civility rope. Off2riorob (talk) 18:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I see practically zero chance of reform and expect disruption wherever that user decides to edit. Under the standard offer we can have users returning, trying to behave and getting reblocked twice a year. I don't see why we shouldn't enjoy at least these full 6-month intervals between any two attempts. Hans Adler 19:02, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Personal Attack

Resolved

 – No personal attacks here. This is a personal attack-free zone. Onay ersonalpay attackay appenedhay. Okay, I'll stop now. HalfShadow 20:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• User:Turco85
• Personal Attack

Turco 85 obviously abused Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Takabeg (talk) 16:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I noticed him. But he abused again. Takabeg (talk) 16:04, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest you develop a thicker skin. He vehemently disagrees but I am not so sure that it qualifies as a personal attack. Someone else might disagree and that's fine. JodyB _talk 16:07, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

That's definitely not a personal attack. Not even uncivil. Just a disagreement. Access Denied – talk to me 16:08, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Can we use such expressions in English Wikipedia ? If possıble, I'll use them. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 16:17, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. Just don't go over the top. Access Denied – talk to me 16:27, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

100% not a personal attack. Vodello (talk) 22:44, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

That is not a personal attack. Personal attacks are things like this Inka⁸⁸⁸ 20:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Removal of NPOV-title and NPOV-section tags

An involved editor/administrator believed that a NPOV-title tag was not needed and has removed it [8]. There was also a NPOV-section tag for a different dispute, which he removed it twice [9][10]. As attempts to resolve the NPOV-tile dispute, a compromise was proposed [11] without success and mediation and other solutions were suggested [12][13][14][15][16], but editors deny the need for it. I can provide diffs for the NPOV-section dispute as well (the section is the Intro). Despite long discussions these disputes are still not resolved. See [17].

Notice sent to the concerned editor/administrator: [18]. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 17:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Content dispute, no abuse of tools or anything else to do here. Discussion at Talk:Transcendental Meditation#NPOV-Title and NPOV-section (intro) Dispute. Editing seems to have been light over the past few days, but consider requesting page protection if normal discussion is insufficient. - 2/0 (cont.) 19:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I am glad you noticed the dispute, but this is not about the content dispute itself, but about the systematic removal of the NPOV tags. I only refer to the dispute to explain the need for these tags. Page protection is not a solution since there is no edit warring. However, no edit warring does not mean that the dispute is small. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 20:15, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Was away the last few days. It is interesting as Edith just replaced the tags herself here [19]. There continues to be no support for her concerns from editors outside a group of WP:SPAs who admit to the practice of Transcendental Meditation. Outside editors who have commented are all okay with how the topic is currently dealt with [20]

Further more Edith was warned regarding harassment here [21]. This appears to simply be a continuation of that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Editor continuing slow edit war at date articles

After an incident that was discussed at ANI Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive644#Editor repeatedly inserting entry at 2012 despite being reverted and led to a block later [22] Das Baz (talk · contribs) is continuing a slow edit war at September 18 adding this [23] yesterday and today. This will be about 19 times now over the past 14 months and despite being reverted that many times he not only continues to add it, he continues not to use edit summaries or the talk page for this, despite the ANI discussion we had and his block. I'm not sure whether a longer block or a topic ban is most appropriate here. Dougweller (talk) 17:58, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi Doug, my suggestion would be to use escalating blocks. PhilKnight (talk) 18:58, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I should note that as I've reverted him and have been involved with him before on other issues such as OR, it would be inappropriate for me to block him. Dougweller (talk) 20:51, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

AN3 filed.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 10:12, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit-warring and POV by موريسكو / Morisco

Hi,

I'm reporting here a contributor who, since he joined the English WP [24], started edit-warring, justifying his actions by the fact that "it has been discussed on the French WP" [25][26] , and editing articles by removing any reference to French Algeria, which are, in my opinion, POV edits [27][28].

I think that what is happening on English WP shouldn't be linked to French WP and that this kind of POV edits shouldn't be tolerated (I can even mention that this user had already been blocked many times on the Fr.WP for POV, personal attacks and references tinkering, but as I said before, what happened there shouldn't interfere with the Eng.WP) ; this user's contributions are meaning that, in my opinion, he's not here to contribute to the WP, but to "act on other user's contributions".

Thanks.

Omar-Toons (talk) 18:49, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I will issue a warning, per your correct understanding of the relation between different language wikipedia's. If they ignore it, we determine whether the English language wikipedia sanction function differs from that of the French... LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:56, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi everyone, if Omar-toons reported here, it does not mean he is right. I initiated an arbitration against him on Wikipedia in French, so he began to introduce informations on Wikipedia in english because he could not did it in french.

Algeria has been used during the french colonisation to qualify it, this is not a POV at all. Regards--موريسكو (talk) 01:07, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks for the note on my talkpage. Whatever issues you might have with the reporter on the French language Wikipedia, the concern here is that the English language Wikipedia may differ in naming conventions from the French Wikipedia and decisions from that project do not apply to this one - if there is any doubt, ask the question on the article talkpage. LessHeard vanU (talk) 01:19, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok,thank you.--موريسكو (talk) 01:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Seems that he didn't understand at all [29][30]

Omar-Toons (talk) 03:35, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Banned user returns

Balubz (talk · contribs) was blocked indefinitely for copyvios on 21 February 2010. Their almost sole area of editing was Phillipine shopping malls operated by SM Prime Holdings, Inc.

• They appear to have returned on 1 May 2010 as Balubz123 (talk · contribs), editing the same articles and still making cut/paste copyvios. See this edit diff where the text (word for word) originates from www.smsupermalls.com
  Note: they have not edited since 21 October 2010.
• These articles on SM operated malls read like adverts and are poorly or not referenced.

Regards, - 220.101 talk^\Contribs 19:16, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Balubz123 has been informed of this discussion diff - 220.101 talk^\Contribs 19:22, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I removed the blatant copyvio shown in the diff. To think that this person actually added the website that he cut-and-pasted from to the article is... mind-boggling. Doc talk 19:35, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I have blocked indefinitely for block/ban evasion, and noted the original account accordingly. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:07, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Doc, I have also made a post at wp:Copyright problems/2010 November 6 as there is a pattern of similar copyvios on SM Prime Holdings shopping malls. There seem to be several editors who have a disturbing interest is shopping malls! - 220.101 talk^\Contribs 20:13, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, LessHeard vanU too!- 220.101 talk^\Contribs 20:16, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Xander134 (talk · contribs) seems to be one of these "interested" editors for sure[31]. What a mess... Doc talk 20:29, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Note - Xander134 has thrice restored copyrighted material after its removal, apparently thinking better of his second reversion, but doing it again today after being warned. He fails to communicate: if fact his only communication ever has been these two edit summaries[32][33]. This is a SPA copyright violator, and maybe a fourth time restoring blatant copyvios shouldn't be waited for. The site he cut-and-pasted from is in the article infobox - it's absurd... Doc talk 20:43, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Carolyn Baker III

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

It seem that this editor want want to be uncivil by using the F bomb as seen here and previous instance here. Sarujo (talk) 02:17, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

What's the big deal? Carolyn Baker III (talk) 02:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

See User:Bunkerdiver. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 02:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's me. I admit it. I already explained that and I'm not using that account anymore. Carolyn Baker III (talk) 02:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see that you had already been warned about alternate accounts. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 02:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

No problem. Carolyn Baker III (talk) 02:58, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

This does not excuse you incivility. Sarujo (talk) 04:11, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I have found two more instances of your incivility here and here. And you don't see a problem? Sarujo (talk) 04:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The four linked diffs above use swearwords, but are not otherwise especially uncivil. Our civility policy is somewhat silent about the use of swearwords, other than to say that "gross profanity" can "contribute to an uncivil environment" without defining the term. Is it just the swearing you're bothered about, or is there some other gross incivility I'm not seeing here? And what sort of administrator intervention are you expecting? When you next reply, please include links to diffs prior to this ANI report where you have raised this issue directly with the editor, and explain why their response was unsatisfactory. Thanks, Bovlb (talk) 05:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts is thataway. Please try to resolve this at WQA before coming straight to the admins. Thanks. --Jayron32 05:19, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Am I to take it that anybody can say any four letter word in the book and get a pat on the back? Manly most of the instances that their language was called out was from regular editors. I personally have refrained from responding to the editor directly as I felt that any attempts to properly educate the editor would prove fruitless as the editor has made it clear that it's who they are and that they will continue to use foul language in the future - which they have. I brought this to this board as I don't believe that the people on Wikiquette alerts would help. I had a simular situation with the editor Divebomb over the F word and after a week with no admin assessment it was deemed a stick discussion and was thrown out. So what's the point of going to someone when they'll just throw it out? So I felt that this was the only place left to handle this. But if everybody here insists that go the WQA, then so be it. Sarujo (talk) 06:35, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to speak to what others have said here. My concern is not that the user's behavior isn't problematic (in my opinion, it IS problematic) but rather that the proper attempts were not made to get the user to correct their own behavior before coming straight to the admins. Asking admins to intervene is NOT step 1 in the dispute resolution process. So, let me clarify: Yes, this user's behavior was unacceptable, but as all admins can do is block them, we should at least try less extreme measures of stopping the problem. In my opinion, all pre-blocking options have not been exhausted in this case. --Jayron32 06:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I see. It had been my belief that when an editor didn't take any advice from another editor to improve their Wikiquette, case in point this comment by another editor on their talk page, then that was when the admins had to step in. But anyway, I'll go to WQA. Sarujo (talk) 06:53, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikihounding by User Whwya

After a dispute over the Hamersley & Robe River railway, which I considered resolved, User:Whwya has taken to wikihound me now, only editing articles I've recently crated. He has now also gone and nominated and tagged 12 articles on mines which I created in the last 24 hour for deletion, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rio Tinto Mines. It seems, the users sole motiviation is to disrubt my editing and force me out of Wikipedia. Calistemon (talk) 02:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I have twice [34][35] warned Whwya (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) over personal attacks and twice had the warnings removed. He/she seems to have a misunderstanding of basic civility codes. –Moondyne 06:21, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

He/she also appears to be a former editor recently returned with an axe to grind. –Moondyne 06:45, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

It's worth nothing that in this comment/edit [36], as well as describing another editor as "an incompetent 2003 admin" (I think accusing someone of incompetence is a personal attack too), they mention "other victims, like (name redacted) and me". So presumably there is some history before their 31st October 2010 account creation date. Perhaps an SPI is called for?

In any case, in this new account, they do not appear willing to abide by Wikipedia's fundamental principles; [37] "As for civility, what is the point of that again?"

--Demiurge1000 (talk) 09:11, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• I have blocked the editor indefinitely, since it is obvious that they are not here for the benefit of the encyclopedia but to be rather WP:POINTy about something or other - possibly regarding plagiarism, but more likely civility. I have advised them that if they are to stop acting like a silly billy then they may be unblocked. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:06, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, it really is much appreciated. Calistemon (talk) 13:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The now-indef'd editor is obviously a sock, and don't rule out that he might be trying to impeach a couple of outspoken editors by "association" - a not-uncommon tack used by banned editors. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:24, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

<groan> OK, can someone check whether his or her edits to an RFC need to be removed? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:48, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The AFD he posted was rejected, anyway. We'll see what else he was up to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any RFC's reference in his edit summaries. Do you have an example? I be blind as a bat. :( ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

There is clearly an RFC in his contribs; don't make me forum shop or canvass. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Alrighty then, I'll look at his individual contribs and see if anything looks like an RFC. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:22, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, duh, must be this one. Given that his voice is just one of a number, and that he is currently trying to negotiate an unblock, probably best off leaving it alone for the time being. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

His initial unblock was declined. His argument for socking is, "I was an established editor, but when people started railing on me all the time, I had no choice but to leave." So he came back with a self-styled "fresh start" and managed to get himself run out on a "rail" within a week. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Somehow, I will find time to read FAC today. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

User:Irfaankhanabadosh

User: Irfaankhanabadosh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Call it a coincidence or the pages on my watchlist show this particular user constantly violating the WP:IUP. He has a very poor history of image uploads on the commons. His account is currently serving a 1 week block on commons. Instead of updating himself of the image use policy or the topic of copyrights, he has repeatedly continued violations despite several warnings on his commons talk page. In the past two days, I see another trail of image violations here on en-wiki - three of which I have Ffd'ed for speedy deletion and tagged one with possibly unfree a few minutes back. Can somebody help? Mspraveen (talk) 06:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

User:Irfaankhanabadosh has been informed of this ANI. Mspraveen (talk) 06:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

As the editor has never responded to warnings, I've given them a 3 day block with a warning that it will be made indefinite if they don't start communicating and responding. Dougweller (talk) 07:45, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Suspicious edits

There was a suspicious edit to the Naomi Campbell page last night at the same time as the Channel 4 programme Million Dollar Drop was running a question related to her age. The edit changed her year of birth to 1977 (from 1970), which made her appear younger than Kate Moss. Shortly after the show gave the answer to the question the change was undone by the same IP address. I can't be 100% certain, but I believe the original edit was made before the question was broadcast.

Shortly afterwards the same IP address edited the Isle of Man page at approximately the same time as Isle of Man was the subject of another question on the show. Again, the nature of the edit was relevant to the specific question asked. I'm not sure whether the edit was made prior to the question being broadcast, but the nature of the edit does suggest it was made by someone with foreknowledge of the question.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Naomi_Campbell&diff=395252978&oldid=395004743 for the Naomi Campbell edit. See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Isle_of_Man&diff=395253551&oldid=394829116 for the Isle of Man edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.187.202 (talk) 15:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, IP is operated by Virgin Media out of Cardiff which also owns the TV channel in Cardiff... but there's nothing that can be done about this. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 19:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Eretz Yisrael Shelanu

This article has been the focus of two separate disputes over the orientation of the party. The first (in April 2009) was a 2 vs 1 situation, which only ended when the article was protected for a week. It was reopened at the end of October this year, and continued again till the page was protected for a week, which was requested after the dispute attracted some sockpuppets and IPs.

Currently there is deadlock; on the talk page; three editors have stated a preference for one description and one in favour of another (there are also two other comments, one by one of the sockpuppeteers and one mocking the arguments of the sole dissenter, but I'm not sure these really count either way). Despite the (small) majority in favour of the current version, I have no doubt that the edit war will resume as soon as the protection ends. I have requested input from WP Political Parties and WP Politics, but there has been no response. I'm sure many people will recommend an RFC, but having tried this many times before, it simply doesn't work in the Israel-Palestinian sphere - as soon as the RFC is advertised, the same set of editors will arrive and !vote in a predictable way, drowing out the responses of the uninvolved parties and leading to further deadlock - I would much rather input from editors without a history of edit warring on either side. Hence a request here for some input on the talk page, or some other action. Cheers, пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

In spite of your reluctance, I would still suggest opening an WP:RFC to see if outside input can help resolve the problems you're having. One of the things that somewhat helped in another contentious area that I've been involved in is to separate involved and non-involved editors responses. Other than that, there is always informal mediation or formal mediation. Other than full protection to prevent edit warring, I'm not sure there's a lot administrators can do the help. -Atmoz (talk) 17:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Horst Mahler

For the last few days, a German Anonymous editing from the Deutsche Telekom AG range 62.226... is being making the case for Horst Mahler with increasingly obnoxious arguments. Horst Mahler, it should be reminded, is a Holocaust denier and former left-wing terrorist with a long criminal record. The arguments made by the German Anonymous, derisive of Mahler's condemnations for Holocaust denial and Volksverhetzung appear to be those, of the very least, of one of the man's spiritual fellows and could be made by the man himself. I know that it is not illegal and not even against Wikipedia policy, but it certainly is problematic. German Holocaust deniers take advantage from the freedom Wikipedia, a a foreign-based media, offers them to argue their case quite openly. Maybe that range should be blocked to make sure this is not stretched even further? --Insert coins (talk) 16:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this rises to the level of need for admin attention. I have made a small edit that should be sufficient to shut them up, addressing the tiniest core of their concern. If the article is subsequently edited to distort NPOV, then perhaps request semi-protection. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand that second quote. Is he saying that if Hitler had actually conducted the Holocast, then he would be forgiven? Or is he saying that if Hitler's only violent act had been the Holocaust, then he would be forgiven? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:06, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The German version is slightly ambiguous but more likely to mean something like the latter. Unless the last sentence is taken out of context (there is an ellipsis before it), that must be the intended meaning. As soon as I find a complete version to verify this I will correct it. Hans Adler 17:14, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

No, actually it was taken out of context. What he really said: "Milliarden von Menschen wären bereit, Hitler und dem Deutschen Volk den Völkermord an den Juden zu verzeihen, wenn er ihn denn begangen hätte, nur weil sie sich keine andere Lösung der Judenfrage vorstellen können, als die Ermordung der Juden." In English: "Billions of people would be ready to forgive Hitler and the German people the murder of the Jews, if only he had committed it, because they cannot imagine any other solution of the Jew question then murdering the Jews." IIRC he argued that there is a "Jew question" (even today), and proposed a non-violent "solution" or something like that. Hans Adler 17:19, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, I understand the quote now. And he's really talking out of both sides of his mouth with that one. Sounds like O.J. Simpson saying, "IF I did it... Not that I did it... but IF I did it..." Yah, sure, you betcha. It also presupposes that the world agrees with his own hatred of Jews. It's a good quote for the article, if used in its entirety, because it leaves no doubt how he feels about Jews. It also vaguely echoes something a Nazi, maybe Speer, said in justification: "They had the chance to leave, and they wouldn't leave." So maybe this character's "non-violent" solution is to ship them someplace. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:32, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I am unwilling to read all that dross again (I did years ago), but I think the idea was that the Jews only exist because the Germans need them in some absurd way (something like God needs Satan, or some other stupid metaphor). If the Germans go back to the early Middle Ages, which apparently involves barter trade instead of money and splitting the country into many little states with borders between them, then they don't need them any longer. I would like to see a South Park episode about that. Hans Adler 18:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Return Germany to a collection of little fiefdoms with a barter system? There's an idea. Should be good for tourism. Though I would hate to have to run a chicken or a goat through a credit-card machine. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Removing a quote from a user page

In this edit I removed a quote by Brewcrewer from Nableezy's user page. Nableezy has queried my action, but not reverted. Nableezy has been notified of WP:ARBPIA, but doesn't have any special restriction relating to civility etc. Was my action ok? PhilKnight (talk) 17:26, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

If that's what Brewcrewer said and he's OK with Nableezy putting the quote on his userpage, I don;t see a problem with it. If not, then it could be seen as provocative. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm struggling to see the generalizable principle that leads to the conclusion that it's appropriate to remove it. PhilKnight, could you please articulate it? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

In my edit summary, I described it as uncollegial. Also, I suspect that Brewcrewer would find it as provocative. PhilKnight (talk) 17:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

If Brewercrewer finds it provocative to have his words quoted in that way, perhaps that suggests that he might do well to rethink his post on that talk page. The fact that Nableezy is quoting it can't be the only thing amiss here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

:::@PhilKnight, I am afraid you removing the quote from Nab's user page shows yet another time that you are not uninvolved administrator concerning I/A conflict area.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC) Sorry it was a wrong post.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi Mbz1, could you explain? PhilKnight (talk) 17:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC) No problem. PhilKnight (talk) 18:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support Phil's action. WP:civility as the basis. Which, inter alia, says: "editors should always treat each other with consideration and respect. In order to keep the focus on improving the encyclopedia and to help maintain a pleasant editing environment, editors should behave politely". And that "Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness, disrespectful comments, and aggressive behaviours that disrupt the project and lead to unproductive stress and conflict". This appears to be less than civil. What is needed in the I/P area is greater civility by editors, not efforts by editors to inflame, insult, or bait each other.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec w Ep) The edit, especially considering the edit summary, adds more ammunition to an already active battlefield. The rule is that we should always comment on content, not the contributor. The rule is there for a reason, and if editors cannot abide by it they should think about removing themselves from the contentious topic to somewhere they can focus on content. If an editor has problems with another editor, there are ways of dealing with that such as RFC/U. Posting such as this to their user page is not part of the dispute resolution process. -Atmoz (talk) 17:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

"Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, trolling, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited." Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles section 4.1.2 - Decorum. The first line is clear. And the trolling line might also apply. There are two problems, though. Previous consensus has allowed Nableezy to do whatever he wants on his user page and another admin has mentioned that this sort of thing should be at AE instead of ANI. Cptnono (talk) 18:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

While it is nice that so many familiar faces have made an appearance, I would like to ask a few simple questions. How is quoting a user and providing a diff for the quote uncivil or an attack or "ammunition to an already active battlefield"? The reason the quote was there was because it is representative of some of the nonsense that users deal with in the topic area. I dont think there is anything wrong with including such a quote, I make no disparaging remark about the quote, I simply show what a user thinks, that the sources are "irrelevant". If somebody wants to make the absurd claim that accurately quoting a user and providing a diff for that quote is either "trolling" or "brings the project into disrepute" that user should be required to back up that claim with more than his imagination. Either that or strike the absurd line. I would like somebody to explain to me why what a user said on a talk page cannot be quoted on my userpage. With a reason with more substance than unsupported assertions that "civility" demands it. nableezy - 18:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Again, see the first line of the decision. It should be crystal clear. In regards to trolling, if you did it to make a point about the editor and to get under his skin then it might be considered trolling. Is it fostering courteous interaction with the user? Is it highlighting your constructive and collaborative outlook? No. It was a poor comment (assuming there is no other context) and it looks like you are attempting to showcase that and bring ridicule upon the other editor. But like I said, admins have allowed you to continue your behavior. I don't know why but that is the way it is.Cptnono (talk) 19:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Per WP:UP#POLEMIC, "material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws" may not be part of user pages. As such, the removal of the content was correct. This userspace issue does not seem to be within the scope of WP:ARBPIA, though.  Sandstein  18:59, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

How is accurately quoting a user either an attack or the recording of a perceived flaw? The flaw is with Wikipedia in that it allows editors who say that in a conflict on where a place is that what sources say that place is located is an "irrelevant straw man". How is accurately quoting a user and providing a diff of that quote a violation of WP:UP#POLEMIC? And if it were, shouldnt MFD be used? nableezy - 19:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

MfD is only for deleting entire pages. Under the circumstances, notably your repeated disagreements with Brewcrewer about I/P issues, the quote cannot be understood other than as an attempt by you to mock or disparage Brewcrewer. That is not allowed.  Sandstein  19:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

But Im not mocking brewcrewer, Im mocking Wikipedia. If you look at the talkpage I thank brewcrewer for his honesty on this subject. I dont have a problem with brewcrewer feeling this way or voicing this opinion. I do however have a problem with the administrators here who think it is a bigger problem that I quote a user saying the sources are irrelevant than the problem that there is a user who actually says the sources are irrelevant. nableezy - 19:12, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Hadn't noticed the comment until I was notified of the discussion. In general I would not have a problem with being mocked over something silly that I said. But this "quote" of mine is being taken out of context. Anyone who reads the discussion in its entirety will see that I did not mean that in general "sourcing is irrelevant." I meant that for that particular discussion sourcing is irrelevant because the issue was which sourced content should be primary and which sourced content should be secondary. This much was explained to Nableezy at the talk page,[38] but s/he chose to ignore me and post the taken-out-of-context quote on his user page. These type of strawman arguments and incivility are par for the course in my interaction with Nableezy as seen at Talk:Rachel's Tomb#Location and Talk:Psagot#legality.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The context is provided by the diff. You cannot in good faith claim that the quote is taken out of context when the entire context is provided. These type of bad faith arguments are par for the course in my interaction with editors who disregard sources in favor of their own personal wishes. nableezy - 19:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

But you can in good faith argue that "The reason the quote was there was because it is representative of some of the nonsense that users deal with in the topic area" while the edit summary says "return brews finest hour" and it was posted 12 minutes after brewcrewer commented on an AE report concerning you, but almost two weeks after he actually made the comment you quoted? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, because what you write isnt entirely true, but that is to be expected from you. Brew made the edit on 21:39, 21 October 2010. I initially added it to my userpage 6 minutes later. I took it down and then put it back up in the edit you reference. nableezy - 20:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Why did you put it back up? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Because it's absurd. brewcrewer basically admits that nableezy is right, that's it's in the West Bank, but that the location should still be decided on who controls the area and his idea of what readers are interested in. The sources against Rachel's Tomb as being in the West Bank include an Israeli High Court decision; even Israel disagrees with brewcrewer's proposed location. The quote sums up the only reasoning justifying the edit. It's in the context of the exact same argument used in every disputed bit of Israeli occupied territory, that we should say it's in Israel because Israel controls it. This cycle is repeated over and over and over in different articles by the same editors, wasting massive amounts of time. Maybe nableezy should have just reported brewcrewer for tendentious editing but it's a perfect crystallization of what goes on here (and looks even worse in context).Sol (talk) 21:40, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

It's obvious brew was saying "the sources are not the issue" not "the sources are not important".

Why did he put it back up when he did, right after brew did something he didn't like? Coincidence? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The placement is intentionally provocative. Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been handled with kid gloves despite a multitude of violations on WP:ARBPIA such as calling fellow editors "certain ultra right-wing nationalists" and assuming bad faith, ignoring factual data as it is presented to him :

• "certain ultra right-wing nationalists" (2 November 2010)
• "I dont exactly believe most (all) of what you claim" (1 November 2010),
• "I will be reinserting this material once protection is lifted." (2 November 2010)

His style is to allege others are bad editors and his efforts are meant to counter them, which is a horrible starting point -- and leads to a horrible editor to work with. One that uses red herrings and ignores content and attempts at reasoning.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:13, 7 November 2010 (UTC) + 22:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC) + 01:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

"With respect", after all that?? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The usual phraseology would be, "With all undue respect..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. Even starting with an assumption of good faith, and ignoring that Nableezy has just been blocked elsewhere for incivility, I find it difficult to believe, after hearing about the history between the two, that Nableezy was doing anything other than engaging in uncivil mocking. And therefore find it unduly stretching credulity to believe his statements here that that was not his intent. But we need not go there, unless someone is seeking to have Nableezy sanctioned for incivility. All we need to do is let Nableezy understand how his edit is seen by the community.

Understanding (now) the consensus view on the subject, of course he, as a non-disruptive editor who is most assuredly not seeking to mock another editor against core wp guidelines, will be quite happy that the offending language that he had posted has been removed. End of story.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:40, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Right! What's going on with RLevse?

As requested by email I have backed off! However, it now seems Rlevse[39][40] is not "retired" but just on "wikibreak" who is pulling the strings here and why? He's seriously broken all the rules and I agreed to let the matter drop because he was apparently upset and not returning. However, if he's just on a wikibreak then we need to investigate his behaviour, I'm not swallowing all these excuses. He's either with us or he is not, at the moment he seems to be controling by proxy?  Giacomo  18:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Honestly you should cram it in your ear. Protonk (talk) 18:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I'd add to that, why is his talk page protected? I can't see any possible legitimate justification for that, especially if he's "on Wikibreak" rather than retired. Since there's an obligation in certain circumstances to notify people (if a file he uploaded is tagged for deletion, say) this seems extremely dubious. – iridescent 18:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• His page was protected because there was grave dancing upon it. If he ever does come off break, I'd say he knows he'll have to deal with all kinds of things. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:48, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Really? and since when have the dead been able to edit [41]? It's truly a miracle. Lazarus lives.  Giacomo  18:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

That's his ghost (and his own talk page). Gwen Gale (talk) 18:53, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

GiacomoReturned, please see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/ChildofMidnight#Casting aspersions:

"It is unacceptable for an editor to repeatedly make false or unsupported accusations against others. Concerns, if they cannot be resolved directly with the other users concerned, should be brought up in the appropriate forums with evidence, if at all."

I understand from your contributions that you have concerns about Rlevse's editing. However, in the light of the aforementioned finding, continuing to voice them in this manner, without citing relevant evidence and by making broad allegations, is disruptive. Please use the appropriate dispute resolution procedure to resolve any current concerns. I do not think that this discussion is useful.  Sandstein  18:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Take a look Sandstein. The page was briefly unprotected for him to edit. What is going on?  Giacomo  18:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Looks to me like it was unprotected for a very short time so he could put up a new break template (so short a time, he made a typo which someone else later fixed for him). Gwen Gale (talk) 18:58, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

So he is far from "dead" and in a land where his failures can be kindly ignored - is he?  Giacomo  18:59, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no point in seeking to address any alleged failure unless or until he returns. Rd232 ^talk 19:22, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Did this get hatted and then unhatted? Saebvn (talk) 19:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it did; by me. The matter needs to be aired and discussed not swept under Wikipedia's already filthy carpet.  Giacomo  19:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec) It was twice closed by an admin and twice reverted by GiacomoReturned ([42], [43].) This is beginning to become disruptive. This board is for requesting administrative intervention. Since no admin intervention is being requested or looks possible here, the thread should be and remain closed.  Sandstein  19:40, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Just wondering to clarify. I've got it displaying 2 ways, and my "refresh" button wasn't doing the job, apparenly. Sorry to intrude into the discussion; just trying to follow and track the comments properly. Thanks for the clarification. Saebvn (talk) 19:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah Administrator Sandstein, suddenly not so ignorant are you [44]?  Giacomo  19:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I think Giano has a legitimate complaint here. When Rlevse left, he had SirFozzie post this on his behalf, in which he says he's scrambled his passwords, and (by implication) saying that he won't be coming back. A week later, he makes this edit. So either Rlevse didn't really scramble his passwords, or he did but left the email-me-a-new-password intact (which makes his first statement a lie of omission). Either way, the issue of whether or not he's coming back is clearly in doubt. Raul654 (talk) 19:43, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Does it matter? He cocked up. That makes him human, not a criminal. Who does that remind you of? Surely not every single Wikipedian? Leave the guy alone and if there are matters beyond a desire for a pound of flesh if or when he returns, we can deal with them then. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

A lie of omission? Huh? Raul that makes very little sense. Nothing in what SirFozzie posted made any suggestion that email-me-a-new-password had been disabled for the Rlevse account, and indeed someone pointed that out publicly very quickly. No great secrecy or confusion. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

No, we can't. It needs dealing with now, while it is fresh on everyones mind and before he comes back with all powers restored. We have gone from retired and never coming back to back within a few hours.With both Admins and Arbs all complicit in playing this deal in and off wikipedia. Let's deal with it here and now.  Giacomo  19:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Deal with what? Your need to get back at a user you very clearly have issues with? Given you are not asking for any kind of adminstrative function here, give me one good reason why this shouldn't be hatted again? Resolute 19:57, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

OK! Rlevse needs to be banned from editing until his edits can be trusted, mentored and approved. As per the many recomendation where this matter has been debated eslewhere, Now he's back and able to edit - we have to deal with his editor.  Giacomo  20:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article review/Grace Sherwood/archive1

Why is this such a big deal? GoodDay (talk) 19:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I see. This has got something to do with plagerism stuff. GoodDay (talk) 20:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Suggest hatting. There is nothing any admin can do here. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 20:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes there is; he can be banned pending an enquiry for the reputation and good of the project.  Giacomo  20:05, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Blocks are preventative; not punitive, not pour encourager les autres, not to make WP:POINTs in defence of reputations or anything else. Since Rlevse is clearly not currently making any edits that need preventing, your suggestion is ridiculous. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:17, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

His page is protected by an admin, it is perfectly in order to raise on the admin's notice board the question of whether that is appropriate. It looks to me like it isn't. If Rleverse is exercising a RTV, then fair do. We talk about the issue and not the person. But a RTV is not an "indefinite wikibreak". Further, if he's posting statement on his talk page (or Fozzie is for him) which address the community and raise issues, it is the right of the community to question and discuss those statements. I am minded to unprotect his talk page. What say you? (Please no hatting till the issue is really resolved).--Scott Mac 20:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• As has also been proven this eveing, he is also quite able to edit hiself - so what is going on here?  Giacomo  20:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep his talkpage protected, until he comes off his wiki-break. GoodDay (talk) 20:23, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Agree with GoodDay. There is currently no statement posted by SirFozzie on Rlevse's talk page to discuss. If a subsequent statement is indeed posted, it can be unprotected for discussion at that time. In the meantime it makes sense for people to get on with something useful instead. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:26, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

No, it does not. we have a former Arb editing by proxy, claiming not to be able to edit, but well able to edit, we have Admins edting clearly on a timescale to allow him to edit protected pages and we have Arbs lying in emails. What is going on?  Giacomo  20:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

It's that there cabal I keep hearing about, I'm sure of it. I could tell you things about them that wou*BANG!* Arrrrh... HalfShadow

This is all part of a great conspiracy. But don't tell anyone.. --Conti|✉ 20:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Am I the only one struggling to find the actual disruption here, save for what appears to be Giacomo's persistence on the matter?    Thorncrag  20:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(Posting hurriedly, so as to resist the temptation to remove HalfShadow's silly babble. Are you posting under the influence again, HS?)

"[This thread] was twice closed by an admin and twice reverted by GiacomoReturned. This is beginning to become disruptive." (Sandstein, above.) "Disruptive.." that word again. So, by saying that, are you implicitly warning somebody you're getting ready to block them, Sandstein? Who? Threads should not be closed until they're all talked out. The purpose of closure isn't (supposed to be) to gag other people. User:Rschen7754 closed this thread, I think, I presume per WP:BOLD, and Giano reverted him. Then you closed it yourself, and Giano reverted again. The disruptive action here, if any, was IMO your re-closure. Your edit summary with it was interesting, running in part: "Please respect the decisions of the administrators curating this board."[45] Certain specific admins are curating ANI, really? Who are they? Are they listed somewhere? Why haven't I heard of them? Are you one? Can I be one? Or does your edit summary simply mean "Please respect the decisions of administrators when contributing to this board, because they, not you, have power over what may be discussed"? [/me makes note of "curate". Useful word!] Do the people who want ANI off limits to this discussion, and Rlevse's talkpage protected, have any suggestion for where discussion could appropriately take place? For me, I agree with Scott: unprotect user talk:Rlevse. Bishonen | talk 20:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC).

It would also be helpful if those administrators instituting page protection on User Talk:Rlevse and the associated user page would put the page protection icon in the corner or a notice on the page, for the convenience of those of us trying to follow what's going on here. Since this has gotten Signpost coverage, interest may increase. Recommend something similar to the notice Uncle G posted at Darius Dhlomo's user and talk pages after that incident got Signpost coverage. Saebvn (talk) 20:58, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

For convenience, here is Uncle G's notice:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Darius_Dhlomo&oldid=384887496

Saebvn (talk) 21:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

And, for anyone interested in historical context, why was this diff RevDel'd or Oversighted?

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Rlevse&diff=393956984&oldid=392445532

Here's the Signpost article:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2010-11-01/Arbitration_report

Actions like this make it hard for other non-Admin members of the community to follow the trail of individual actions, spread out over multiple pages (as Iridescent recounts below), that are somehow related to this incident. If an editor reads the Signpost article, and tries to follow its links there to gain a better, more well-rounded understanding of this, what conclusions will s/he draw (or even a non-editor member of the public at large) when things are removed from the record or invisible to non-Admin editors? I'm still trying to get a handle on this so I can even begin to form an opinion by reading the relevant elements of the record. Saebvn (talk) 21:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• I'm not really sure what the big campaign is here. Let's say Rlevse had not quit after this incident; would there have been anything to "deal" with? No, of course not. He made a mistake and he knows it (it has been emphasised in the strongest possible terms by those on his talk page and those commenting here). After years of dedication to the project, it would displease anyone to come under fire as he has. Can I please suggest we leave this alone now? Constantly throwing it back into the public arena is only going to keep Rlevse away from the project for longer, which would obviously not be a good thing. This sort of discussion isn't doing anyone any favours. PeterSymonds (talk) 20:53, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

No we cannot leave it, we left it when he annopunced he had retired. He is no longer retired. The matter was hushed and swept under the carpet on the advice of the arbcom because he was not coming back. He is now back. It needs to be dealt with - block the acount until the matter is dealt with. Or do former Arbs have special treatment?  Giacomo  20:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)There is plainly an issue here, and it's not really to do with protecting pages. Rlevse apparently either fell on his sword or left in a snit (depending on your POV) because he wrote part of an article by plagiarising a copyright source. According to some, this was not the first time there had been an issue of this kind. If Rlevse was not a hugely experienced editor, admin, arb etc etc, someone would have opened a copyright investigation, and the editor would normally be blocked unless they persuade the community that it was a mistake, and they offer to clear up the mess. That didn't happen, the whole process was stalled by the editor apparently and dramatically leaving forever. Therefore the "what should we do with an editor who regularly plagiarises" discussion remains to be had, and such discussion would not normally wait for an editor to come back from wikibreak, where the matter involves plagiarism and copyvio. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:59, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Maybe he'd be more willing to come back and have this discussion if everybody put their pitchforks down. Just sayin'. PeterSymonds (talk) 21:02, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The only process discussion related to Rlevse I know of is here: Wikipedia:Featured article review/Grace Sherwood/archive1. If you have anything relevant to say on that topic please say it there. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

You forgot Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Plagiarism and copyright concerns on the main page, Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Changing DYK, Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates#Plagiarism issue, Wikipedia talk:Featured articles#Problem article, and User talk:Jimbo Wales#Copyrights and plagiarism. It's hardly as if the FAR is the only issue here. – iridescent 21:14, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing these out. I thought the AN/I discussion had been archived, but now I see that it has been moved to its own subpage. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Am I correct in understanding that the plagiarism concerns are one passage from one article or are there more? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:26, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Your understanding is faulty, which would be easy to see if overly officious admins stopped deleting and protecting Rlevse's talk page. Malleus Fatuorum 21:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
  • HJ, besides the FA, there are concerns about at least one of his DYKs that I've seen, perhaps more. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
    • It's two articles, one was a list that wasn't properly attributed and another was the Grace Sherwood article, this is an anti-arb crusade (especially by Giano) right here and this thread should be closed, I was the one who mentioned Rlevse that he could edit because he never disabled his email. We are talking shit behind his clearly not here back, and we should stop it. If Rlevse decides to go edit again, then we could discuss this further. Secret ^account 21:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
      • Oh, only two articles? I haven't verified the one reported here, but it looks really bad, too. Hans Adler 00:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Bullying and tag teaming at ANI

Several administrators have tag teamed against Giano in order to get a very necessary discussion suppressed. Claiming to disappear completely and then reappearing a few days later is not an acceptable form of crisis management, especially not for an ex-Arb. Rlevse's copyvios appear to stretch back over many years, and checking and fixing everything is going to be a lot of work. He should not be allowed back if he doesn't help with this work to the best of his ability, the standard condition for such cases. I am going to reopen the discussion, but first I want to start the inevitable discussion about admin abuse.

Also: Saebvn asked about a diff that is linked from the Signpost but no longer visible. The thread was closed before the question was answered. As a result I bothered the functionaries list with an unnecessary question. For anybody else who missed the obvious: It is because the user page itself is deleted. Hans Adler 23:25, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Reopening the discussion is reasonable. I appreciate the ability to participate in it, whether here or in another appropriate forum. In specific response to Hans Adler, thank you for the explanation about the deleted comment. I really appreciate it, and I'm sorry I missed the obvious. Thank you. Saebvn (talk) 23:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrator or not, why can't we let the guy come off his wiki-break first, before unprotecting his userpage? GoodDay (talk) 23:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hans, I suggest you not accuse people of tag teaming unless you have evidence. This appears to simply be a case where many administrators felt this thread needed to be closed (myself included). There was no admin abuse here, this thread was clearly not useful. I suggest a better course of action would be to go to WP:AN, and start a community proposal for a ban, to be reviewed upon Rlevse's return. That way time wasted on this is minimised (in that the community won't be pointless addressing the issue of an editor who is never coming back anyway), but Rlevse won't be able to rejoin the community, should he decide to, without community acceptance. That seems to be the only real concern: Rlevse returning without this being cleared up. However, do not reopen this thread, as it's not properly focused on that topic, and is more of a Rlevse bashing thread. - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 23:31, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Experience tells that Rlevse is very likely going to be back, as this was not his first "retirement" and a lot of uncritical fans have implored him to return. And in fact he has already restored access to his account. Hans Adler 23:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec) There is a difference between bullying & tag teaming and multiple people coming to the same conclusion independently of each other. --Conti|✉ 23:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Hans, just so you're aware of the current situation, Giano has been blocked for 48 hours. I'm obviously not going to take any admin action here, but my advice would be not go over 3RR, even if you consider the discussion to be necessary. PhilKnight (talk) 23:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean by "tag-teaming"? Improper coordination of edits? Please refer to my comment about casting aspersions, above, before making such claims without evidence. For my part, for the record, I undid GiacomoReturned's unarchiving of the above thread, in my capacity as administrator using this board, because while the underlying concern may well be real, this is not the way and not the forum in which to address it: no admin action is being requested here. We have a WP:DR process for such issues, and ANI is not a part of it. I recommend that this subthread be likewise closed.  Sandstein  23:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is not Wikipedia's finest moment. Giacomo Returns goes down on a TKO for having the temerity to want to discuss something that is actually worth discussing.  pablo 23:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

As someone mentioned above, this stuff should be taken to AN. GoodDay (talk) 23:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The tag team:

• Rschen7754
• Sandstein
• HJ Mitchell
• Gwen Gale
• Secret

By tag teaming I mean working together to avoid breaking 3RR in an attempt to enforce an edit that cannot be enforced by arguments. It was very obvious that this needs discussion, and a small number of admins who felt uncomfortable with that tried to suppress the discussion. That is not acceptable at all. Hans Adler 23:45, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Hans, do you have any proof that they were deliberately working together to a common aim and with a common scheme, as opposed to independently agreeing with each other and carrying out the same action? ╟─TreasuryTag►constablewick─╢ 23:48, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

  I explained what I mean by tag teaming. I am using this handy metaphor in a loose way that covers any situation in which several people work together to win by force rather than argument. It would be absurd to suspect any secret communication in this case. We have more than enough admins who can independently have the same bad idea. Hans Adler 23:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

  "Working together" (your phrase, not mine) by definition requires conscious effort and co-ordination. The definition of "tag-teaming" also specifies that it is a situation where "editors coordinate their actions to circumvent the normal process of consensus." So I repeat my question: Do you have any evidence for your claim that tag-teaming and co-ordination of actions has taken place? ╟─TreasuryTag►international waters─╢ 23:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

  You asked a question and I have given you an honest answer. It is not my fault if you don't like it. I used a different definition. The outraged reactions have shown me that it is an idiosyncratic definition, so I will try not to use it in the future. Perhaps you would like to ask your question once more now? Working together does not require coordination. That's why wikis are so efficient. Hans Adler 00:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Many of us know plagiarism is rampant on en.WP. What admin action would you like, Hans? Gwen Gale (talk) 23:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Let's run with this statement. Whatever it's called - variously copyright violation, plagiarism and close paraphrasing, all currently being used interchangeably to describe more or less the same phenomenon, it is not only rampant, it is a standard editorial practice throughout the project. In a recent case, I read over 500 articles, checking histories and sources in many of them. Deviation from what exactly the sources said was penalized, regularly, with blocks, reverts, and kilobytes of discussion on talk pages. Editors, including those with extensive writing experience, administrators, RC patrollers, and editors who just happened to be interested in a particular article almost invariably brought articles closer to the original sources and penalized original expression. This area is not out of the ordinary; it is far closer to the project-wide editing standard than anything else that I've seen expressed in the past week. Indeed, at the same time as we are commenting favourably on the number of BLPs that have recently been sourced, it seems nobody's noticed how a few thousand of them got sourced: look for the key phrase in the article, use it as a google search string, and then use the non-WP-mirror link that comes up to source the article - because that's probably where the information came from in the first place.

Many people who have commented here are embarrassed that an article with (very) close paraphrasing made it to the main page. Perhaps you should all go back and look at the articles to which you have made any contributions over the years, and see how many of them have unattributed information in their histories, and how many were built on what was unattributed information from their earliest edits. Only after everyone who wants blood here has done that should any of you cast the first stone. And yes, I mean those articles in which you've simply done "vandalism reverts" too, particularly if you've readded material removed by another editor. How do you know you weren't reverting to a copyvio/plagiarism/close paraphrasing state? Risker (talk) 00:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

As I understand it ANI is not just for requesting specific admin actions, it is also for discussing incidents. The Rlevse copyvio incident was not properly discussed because Rlevse claimed to leave forever. A few days later he suddenly edits his talk page to announce a "wikibreak". The poor judgement shown in this action is almost worse than that exhibited by his copyvios.

A minor incident is that an admin (I think OlEnglish) unprotected and then protected the page to enable this inappropriate edit.

But since you were asking for possible admin action: How about blocking the Rlevse account indefinitely to avoid further disruption? How about unprotecting Rlevse's talk page to enable discussions with Rlevse about possible unblock conditions such as his cooperation in the cleanup? I would have thought that things can be handled with more dignity than this, but after this thorough mishandling it seems impossible. Hans Adler 00:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Blocks are meant to be preventative and Rlevse has straightforwardly stopped editing articles, on his own so there's no need to block and no policy support for a block, for now. As for the userspace protection, why should any other editor need to post to his userspace if he's no longer editing? Truly meaningful notices, say from arbcom, can be relayed to the page through an admin, bot notices aren't very meaningful to someone either retired or on indefinite wikibreak. There is truly nothing an admin can do here and hence, ANI isn't the page to talk about worries as to Rlevse's bygone behaviour. I'd say take it to arbcom, but he's already given up all his bits. There are highly meaningful worries about how content is built here, but it goes far, far beyond anything Rlevse may have done. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

In other words, just wait a few weeks (if that; Rlevse seems to be very impatient) until everybody has moved on to other matters, and when Rlevse quietly starts editing again without cleaning up his mess first, his fans will be in a better position to avoid any consequences. Excellent plan.

One of the "highly meaningful worries about how content is built here" is that apparently you can even make it into Arbcom by plagiarising, and once there, the bootlicking admins will protect you from criticism. I don't think that should ultimately be the lesson learned from this episode. Hans Adler 00:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

That's not how I closed the above thread. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I know. I found it a relatively good way of closing the thread. But there is no way to enforce that kind of thing. The wiki forgets quickly. Hans Adler 01:08, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Someone should unblock Giacomo and Rlevse should get his ass back here and discuss and see the music and work it out, his leaving like this is just not on. Off2riorob (talk) 23:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC

Was that supposed to be a serious and/or helpful comment? ╟─TreasuryTag►secretariat─╢ 23:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Hans Adler, I have no particular opinion about the situation involving Rlevse. People can discuss that all they want as far as I'm concerned. But I have an opinion about what our administrative noticeboards are for, and evidence-less accusations against unspecified people and requests for banning are not it. If there is a concern that needs admin action now, it should be clearly stated, with the requisite evidence, not just a handwaving "He's seriously broken all the rules" and a lot of hot air. If a longterm contributor needs sanctioning for copyvios or similar problems, there is a WP:DR process for that, including a WP:RFC/U and culminating in a WP:RFAR if necessary. Please help us stop this pointless drama and bring any real concern to the proper forum in the proper form.  Sandstein  23:57, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(Re Sandstein) I did have a point, which somehow got lost in the heat and light above; that restricting Rlevse's talk page to sysop-only goes against countless principles. There are any number of reasons (completely unrelated to the current mess) why someone might want to leave a message, even in cases where there's for more certainty that the user's not coming back, as otherwise it opens up all kinds of "you failed to notify me!" potential issues in future (even Poetlister's talk page gets the occasional message). While someone will probably correct me, AFAIK the only non-RTV'd user whose talk page is full-protected is User talk:Essjay, and that's a truly exceptional circumstance. – iridescent 00:08, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

That does sound like a valid concern. But that particular issue was not what this thread was started about. Wouldn't WP:RPP be the forum in which to request unprotection, and if it is declined there, open a thread here for community discussion about the narrow issue of protection?  Sandstein  00:13, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

So your excuse for your part in the edit war is that you slept over the entire story and have no idea what it is about? Great. Hans Adler 00:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

@Sandstein - Where would be the proper place to discuss this. We have a member of ArbCom who has several copyright violations. He has retired and scrambled his password (but not really), and any attempt to discuss this on his user talk page has been described as grave dancing. The talk page is now protected. Should we file an RfC/U on a user who has retired and scrambled his password (but not really)? Where do you suggest interested parties discuss this? AniMate 00:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

A good start would be a clear exposition what the actual problem is, with relevant evidence in the form of diffs. You cannot all assume everybody here follows your private drama in obscure venues. If copyright is the problem, the proper forum for acting on it would be Wikipedia:Copyright problems. If longterm user conduct is the problem, then RFC/U is the correct venue. That RFC may then need to be suspended until Rlevse returns to editing.  Sandstein  00:19, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

The simple answer is that Sandstein doesn't want it to be discussed, he wants it to be swept under the carpet. Malleus Fatuorum 00:17, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I suggest directing these inquiries directly to ArbCom. Little that admins can do, and little that admins are willing to do given the touchiness of this situation. --Rschen7754 00:17, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Where's a good place for Giacomo to discuss Rlvese? GoodDay (talk) 00:19, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

There isn't any place to discuss what actions should we do with Rlevse that isn't attacking the user. We are setting fuel to the fire, and if Rlevse comes back then we could discuss it. No Giano shouldn't be unblocked for this as his editing was disruptive. I also did a revert to close the page, all of this has been unhelpful. If anything we should focus an RFC on Rlevse contributions, if he had any copyvio in the tons of FAs he had. I don't see one. This discussion should be closed. Secret ^account 00:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

There are obviously inappropriate ways of carrying on this conversation, but the notion that "it isn't acceptable to discuss Rlevse" because it's an attack, followed by ridiculous attempts to silence the thread with forced archiving an blocks is utterly counter-productive. As long as a user chooses to participate, his action are a legitimate subject of debate. The thread gets archived only when users are finished.--Scott Mac 00:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

"if Rlevse comes back"? Are you joking? Rlevse has come back to announce his return. That's the incident we are discussing here. In future please acquaint yourself with the subject of a discussion before closing it. Hans Adler 00:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

This clip[46] might fit. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

He's also happily editing away on Commons, so it's hardly as if he's sworn off Wikimedia and all its ways. – iridescent 00:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Currently the only place where Giano can discuss Rlevse is his own talk page, but under Carcharoth's (and a few others') novel totalitarian policy interpretation he could then be blocked for "canvassing". Hans Adler 00:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• Also, sombody's being a naughty boy. HalfShadow 00:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Vivalet Secret ^account 00:38, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Rlevse has every right to return form a wikibreak. There is no rule on wikipedia that retirement statements are binding, also not for ex-arbitrators. ·Maunus·ƛ· 00:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

His wiki-break timing stinks. It sure would be nice if he returns sooner, rather then latter. GoodDay (talk) 00:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

True, but "retirement", followed by a "wikibreak", is not a get-out-of-jail-free card. He had the choice: Suffer a discussion of his copyvios or escape from it by disappearing for a long time. He is trying to avoid both. That's a problem. Hans Adler 00:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Everyone is free to discuss his alleged copyvios whether he is here or not and the community can impose sanctions with or without his participation. If someone thinks that he has committed a bannable offense and is likely to repeat it unless sanctions are imposed then that should be the topic - not whether or not he has a right to edit now. He has that right untill the community takes it away, and we haven't.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

The standard reaction is to block such an editor until he has promised to help with the cleanup work, and then unblock him under the condition that most of his edits go into that. We never discussed whether we treat him in the same way or whether he gets preferential Arb treatment – because he ran away. Now he is back, and quite a few people are filibustering the discussion after the attempt to simply close it failed. Hans Adler 01:15, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I have never heard of anyone being blocked for one (possibly two) instances of close paraphrasing/copyvio. Block is not punitive and would have to be grounded in fear of repetition.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Neither have I. We tried to sweep things under the carpet, but with so many idiots who defend someone as if he was innocent without looking at the facts first, it turned out to be impossible. At this point it seems most efficient to create the WP:CCI subpage, after all. Hans Adler 01:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

If somebody wants consideration of some action against Rlevse, I can't imagine that process occurring unless/until he returns. The only alternative would be asking for a trial in absentia. Or decide to give him an immediate 7 day block?  :-) The latter brings up a second point, unless WP wants to expand it's sentencing powers (e.g. to decide to send somebody over to break his windows), any decision would be a moot point unless / until he was back. North8000 (talk) 00:49, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

This comment is completely beyond the pale. Rlevse ran away and didn't have the decency (or the strength [47][48]) to stay away. This has given him a few days in which everybody could calm down, but it's not OK to give him enough time so that everybody has lost interest when he is discussed. If he wants to participate, fine. If he doesn't, also fine. I would imagine that he is informed of this thread. Hans Adler 01:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Participate in what? You've already been directed to the proper location depending on what it is you actually want to discuss. Or is it just more fun to haul your pitch fork out and act indignant for no real benefit to anyone? Resolute 01:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, great. The old "We can't continue the discussion at ANI because it really belongs at AN" gambit. Well, there is still an incident that requires admin action. As of this writing Rlevse's talk page is still protected without any policy-based reason, and I can't see a firm consensus to IAR in this case. As a result, he has not been formally notified of this discussion even now, hours after it started. Hans Adler 01:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

And to be clear: I am not personally interested in drastic action. I am currently in reactance mode due to totally inappropriate attempts to stifle discussion. Once sane discussion has started I will argue for a solution that minimises stress for Rlevse and the potential negative publicity. Hans Adler 01:27, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Dumping my thought on you: I often see people here rushing to demonstrate how something is not an issue for this board. Come on, we're not that kind of bureaucracy, are we? If there is a need that something be discussed elsewhere (because that's where the interested and affected people might look for it) then please post the request at that locus, and leave a link here. If there is no clear locus where this should be discussed, then what is the harm in letting a discussion take its course and eventually result in some action or change, or peter out... ? Seeing the same discussion bubble up at several places only to be stifled in order to bubble up anew somewhere else is frustrating to me, and I don't even understand what the hell is going on. ---Sluzzelin talk 01:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Specific to this case, WP:CCI if there is a credible concern that we need to look over many of Rvlese's contributions for plagiarism/close paraphrasing. WP:RFCU if there is a user conduct issue that needs to be looked at. WP:RFPP to request unprotection - though it is worth noting that Maunus has already unprotected. WP:ANI if there is a desire simply to create drama. Resolute 01:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

See, I don't understand all these distinctions. I'd hope that an administrator (or other savvy editor) would assist me with finding the right venue and form to deposit my concern. ---Sluzzelin talk 01:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:ANI when there are several different concerns at the same time and it is not clear which of the other places are appropriate and how to coordinate them. As I wrote above, we tried to spare Rlevse the CCI although it should have been opened. According to the admin who has looked at Rlevse's articles, almost every one of them is problematic. I am just reporting what he wrote discreetly by email, I didn't check myself, but only verified that the examples he sent me were indeed problematic. See this blog post for a (different) example [49]. Hans Adler 01:40, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• - Administrator Maunus has unblocked Rlevse's talkpage, perhaps someone should notify him about this thread, although it seems a bit late now. Off2riorob (talk) 01:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I've done that as well.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Aw, ,thanks Maunus, excuse me for spelling your name wrong. Manaus is a city in Amazonia - Off2riorob (talk) 01:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• I suggest anyone who attempts to close this thread again be blocked. This matter needs discussing. We'd pretty much left it behind because Rlevse was believed to be gone; that's clearly in doubt now. How dare anyone try to say we may not discuss this? I don't agree with the solutions Giano proposes, but this matter needs to be settled by the community. Giano's been blocked 48 hours for edit warring because he was unwise enough to not wait for someone else to be the one to reopen this discussion, but he was spot on in his edits to do so, and those people edit warring with him should be judged equally guilty. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 01:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Wouldn't it be better for someone to convince Rlevse to return to the project to face the angry mob? It looks to me like the pitchforks started coming out because a group of editors (several of whom are admins) have decided that Rlevse deserves a room in an impenetrable fortress. Protecting Rlevse's talk page, hatting and rehatting an ongoing ANI discussion without community consensus, and baiting and blocking an outraged member of the peasantry look exactly like the reasons why people are getting more and more perturbed and less and less willing to let it all go. What are the chances that Rlevse will do the right thing and participate in a discussion about his actions when this anger keeps on escalating because of the actions of his body guards?Griswaldo (talk) 01:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Clearly the chances are zero if we're to believe what we're being told this time. Malleus Fatuorum 01:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• Since this issue is still being discussed, wouldn't it be appropriate to unblock Giano? Or perhaps block/censure the admins who inappropriately attempted to close this thread before discussion was ended? Gimmetoo (talk) 01:39, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• Threads that generate more heat than light are routinely closed. No reason to block or censure those who were simply trying to keep a drama fest from getting out of control unless they, you know, actually broke a policy. Edit warring, for instance. Resolute 01:42, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• And you are setting yourself up as the judge and jury? Malleus Fatuorum 01:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
• And who, pray, gets to decide which discussions are causing more heat than light? This thread was certainly generating heat, but there was light that needed to be shed. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 01:47, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• The five admins Hans pointed out, and several others, myself included, who share the same opinion. The point being, there was nothing unusual in a desire to not let a thread that initially was incredibly unproductive blow up into something even less productive. Choosing to disagree with that opinion is fine, but unless there is an actual reason put forth as to why blocking or censuring anyone else would prevent damage to the project, such calls are simply punitive. Resolute 01:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• Punitive ... much like the way that a growing number of people are seeing the block of Giano. Mistakes are made all the time, and it really isn't a big deal, but when they are brought to light people ought to make them right. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:13, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• And yet, at this point, one editor is still blocked. Gimmetoo (talk) 02:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

The matter seems to be resolved [50]. I personally have no further objections to closing this thread. Hans Adler 01:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Peace everyone — Rlevse • Talk • 01:49, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Hey,thank you, welcome. Off2riorob (talk) 01:52, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Discussion on Giano block

• I was personally a bit disturbed by the suggestion made in this comment on Giano's talk page. According to the comment Giano made it clear that he would continue to keep the conversation alive and admins took turns reverting him and then in the end sent him to the chopping block. I'm not suggesting a conspiracy to get him blocked, but it's hard to imagine that those participating didn't know how it would end and weren't desirous of that solution.Griswaldo (talk) 01:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• - I support unblocking Giacomo his block was silly and unneeded, the discussion should not have been closed down, we are able to discuss it like adults without closing it down and leaving people hanging and unresolved. The blocking of contributors should be a last resort, we are short enough of acual content contributors as it is, the idea to keep in mind is to avoid blocking editors if possible. Also as it was the locked talkpage that Giacomo was wanting to discuss and it is now unlocked the issue of contension is now resolved and the continuation of his block is punitive only. Off2riorob (talk) 01:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
• I also support unblocking Giano. The admins who were trying to shutdown this thread prematurely were clearly in the wrong. Raul654 (talk) 01:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
• - I think Giacomo's behaviour was fairly disruptive, in that it was loud and hysteric, but with no actual substance, It was probably not necessary to block him for it though and I would not oppose and unblock.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) We have now had an administrative action directly consequent to a request arising from this thread. This is some two and a half hours after Giano was blocked to prevent him from reopening this thread again after multiple closures. Isn't about time that we accept that his judgement was correct? The block is now preventing nothing. I'm happy to accept that block was originally made in good faith to prevent edit-warring, but I think it would be best if some consideration were made to what purpose it is now serving. If it's no longer a preventative block, what is it? --RexxS (talk) 01:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
• Uphold block The rules apply to Giano. He violated 3RR, and then some, and has not indicated he has learned anything from the block. If he is properly regretful, perhaps an independent admin can evaluate then. I hope I will not see a cowboy admin act to unblock him. As for Rexxs's comment, Giano clearly believed he was right. Do we block many people who think they were wrong? Plainly, RexxS, that's no excuse!--Wehwalt (talk) 01:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• From Wikipedia:Edit warring - "Administrators decide whether to issue a warning or block; these are intended to prevent, deter and encourage change in disruptive behavior, not to punish it." Now that it is clear that Giano's reversions weren't disruptive at all the current block can only be seen as punitive and as such against policy as I read it.Griswaldo (talk) 02:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• Agreed with Wehwalt. Giano knows the rules, he knows that edit warring is a quick route to a block, and he went there anyway. If he wants to play at being a martyr, that is his decision. Resolute 01:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
• I oppose an unblock for the reasons I set out here. The block was issued independently of any reason why Giano made the reverts. Even if he was right, even if consensus was behind him (and I see no evidence of either), 3RR is a bright line. The block will only stop being preventative if there is a credible indication from the user concerned that it is no longer necessary to prevent edit-warring. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• Huh? What credible indication is that that he will continue to edit war. The very suggestion is illogical since his version was restored. I don't understand.Griswaldo (talk) 02:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
• No, we don't go around insisting that editors have to humble themselves and agree with a blocking admin's view. It's demeaning to demand that in any adult area. Once the purpose of the block has expired, then the block needs to be removed. It's only common courtesy.

--RexxS (talk) 02:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, RexxS, I'm afraid we do. I see it all the time. It's the single most distasteful aspect of Wikipedia to me. :-( Bishonen | talk 02:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC).

• That Giano has not already been unblocked is just another demonstration of wikipedia's corrupt system of governance. Malleus Fatuorum 02:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a system of governance?    Thorncrag  02:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess that was a bit of blind leap of faith. Another problem that arises now is that any admin with the balls to do the right thing has been pre-labelled a "cowboy" by Wehwalt, piling corruption upon corruption. Malleus Fatuorum 02:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

To be fair, in some places in the world, being a cowboy admin would probably be considered a compliment. B-) Heimstern Läufer (talk) 02:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Where are your usual cowboys?--Wehwalt (talk) 02:13, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

You appear to be right here. Malleus Fatuorum 02:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) The thing is - he was right. Do we want to be blocking editors for being right? The thread was open over two hours after he was blocked. Administrative action was requested and happened. Consensus is clear that editors wanted to discuss and request admin assistance. The admins attempting to close the thread had misjudged the consensus, that's all. Are you really going to go on record as supporting a punitive block? --RexxS (talk) 02:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

  • "Being right" is not a defence against edit warring. Resolute 02:07, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

    • Yes it is. --RexxS (talk) 02:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

      Hmm, I agree with RexxS here. At the most extreme, we shouldn't block people for "3RR" for removing unsourced and incorrect info from articles. I can see the application to policy or incident pages, where encyclopedic accuracy doesn't matter, might be a little less clear to some, but Giacomo's view prevailed (and is likely to prevail for the duration of the block), so there is nothing "preventative" about the block now. Gimmetoo (talk) 02:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

  • I would argue the fact that he routinely gets off easy for his disruptive nature represents even more damning evidence of Wikipedia's corrupt system of governance. Resolute 02:07, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
    • So you want to punish him now because you think he wasn't sufficiently punished in the past? Does that really make sense to you? Malleus Fatuorum 02:14, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
      • Like you, I wish only that he be treated in the same fashion as anyone else. Given it is very, very rare for a 3RR block to be truncated, logic argues that if we were to treat Giano fairly, his block would last until its expiry. This, of course, is the problem with Giano. Any time he crosses the line, his friends come along to wikilawyer his way out of it. The truth is, until we begin to treat Giano's disruption the way we treat that of others, he will continue to believe the rules do not apply to him. Unblocking him early serves only to encourage future disruption. Resolute 02:19, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
        • You see "disruption" in the strangest places. The disruption has actually been caused by the tag-teaming admins who colluded in this block to silence criticism of their caste, but they will escape without censure. Malleus Fatuorum 02:24, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
          • I can easily show Giano crossed 3RR. All you have is an unsubstantiated claim. As noted above, casting aspersions isn't going to get you far. Resolute 02:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
            • Wikilawyering is "asserting that the technical interpretation of Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines should override the underlying principles they express". I'm not quoting policy at you, I'm just asking for common sense to prevail. I do understand that you feel an unblock now would "encourage future disruption", but punitive blocks don't modify behaviour; they merely cause resentment. --RexxS (talk) 02:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• (ec) I've got no comments atm on other aspects of this whole mess, but freakin' a, undo this ridiculous block of Giano already. And I say that as someone who's butted heads with the guy before. If nothing else, this LOOKS like a huge Conflict of Interest. Even if Giano broke the letter of some rule, surely this constitutes an exceptional situation and he was perfectly within his rights to continue the discussion. Or wait ... maybe Giano can retire for... say, 6 hours, the block is removed, and then he comes back as if nothing happened. Problem solved, ey? Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

(eyes boggle) Conflict of interest? Would you mind sharing with the rest of the class?--Wehwalt (talk) 02:14, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Giano brings up legitimate issues with regard to an admin's (and also an arb's) behavior. Other admin's flock to beat him down and one of them eventually blocks him under a flimsy pretext. Sorry, but this looks very much like the "rule police" is protecting one of their own, or at least smacking down an uppity content creator who generally has problems with the way this place is run. I can't see how one can avoid the interpretation that this is a "must silence non-admin complainers" kind of block. So, if you'd like, it's a "class" conflict of interest though maybe not a "personal" one. The whole thing also illustrates clearly the deep polarization on Wikipedia between content creators and those who police/smack them around (I'd actually exclude you personally from that Wehwalt). Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Um, yes, I do have a foot in both camps, don't I? :)--Wehwalt (talk) 02:22, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

It's rare but it happens and more power to you. The general point still stands. Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• Unblock, or at least reduce to time served. Giano technically breached 3RR - bad. But it wouldn't have happened if people hadn't insisted on repeatedly closing down discussion on an incident. Blocking here goes with the letter of the law, but I don't think anyone's covered themselves in glory here. Rd232 ^talk 02:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

There were other things Giano could have done. He chose to violate 3RR. He Just Didn't Care. To unblock him without him even asking would be a mistake.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

There were other things the admins involved could've done as well, rather than tag team on Giano. I'm getting a sense that for the first time a few of these admins are getting an idea of what it is like to edit a controversial topic. The difference is that there's nobody to block and bully them around. Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I oppose an unblock he was clearly edit warring on a thread that should have been closed because it was bashing another editor whose not here to defend themselves. (Note I did one of the reverts, and I don't consider it disruptive unlike several people, block me if you want I still stand by it). Secret ^account 02:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Well of course you do, since you were one of the people tag teaming Giano. Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't tag teaming, I did what was right for the project and Rlevse, that discussion didn't serve any purpose but to attack Rlevse. The only thing is that he did stop edit warring after I did the final revert, and did some edits after my warning, so if he's unblocked it's for a reason. Secret ^account 02:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• Giano should be unblocked right now. The block didn't serve any preventative purpose. Edit warriors may be blocked, not must be blocked. Moreover the way I read it, the edit-warring policy mainly reflects practice regarding article space, not this noticeboard. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Hoax, FAC, who knows what else

Could someone deal with this mess? I've got to go dig back in my archives to recover past similar incidents-- I suspect the article is a hoax, but haven't yet checked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:25, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

More pieces as I find them (since I'm not an admin, I can't see deletions):

• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Russia/archive6, SPI needed.
• User:Great Pumpkin.
• [51]
• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Santana discography/archive1

There were other "Pumpkin" FAC submissions, but since I can't see deletions, I can't find them. I also can't find the evidence that seems to link the "Pumpkin" accounts to User:Hadrianos1990 (talk · contribs), who had nine archived FACs for Real Madrid C.F.. The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) may have that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:40, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't look like a hoax, it has pertinent references to mainstream media.  Sandstein  19:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

NPR doesn't seem to consider the group a hoax. The nomination for featured article is pretty much a hoax though. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks-- I just hadn't had time to check, and a ctrl-f on the first source didn't turn up the text I queried. The Rambling Man took over the "Pumpkin" accounts for me a while ago, so I've pinged him to peek in here. We have repeat, ill-prepared noms from "Pumpkins", and I suspect an SPI is needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Have deleted the next ill-advised FAC. I can't SPI things, so suggest a comprehensive report is collated, or else just sniff out a duck and be damned. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I can't even find all the pieces-- I can't recall how or when I linked the Pumpkins to Hadrianos; perhaps if you have time, you can find our first discussion? I have not yet read FAC today. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I didn't look at the refs, I went into google and entered the name of the group. Sean Lennon's presence would seem to make the subject notable. The article itself... well, let's just say it could stand some improvement. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:05, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I found my mistake-- I queried "Sabre" instead of "Saber" (misspelling). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, all (I just spent an hour and a half dealing with two disruptive issues, instead of reading FAC). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Sandy, I'm on my way to bed, but if I can drag up some more detail, I'll see if I can instigate an SPI tomorrow unless someone beats me to it. Now get back to real work...!! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Obvious sockpuppet

Resolved

 – Blocked for block evasion GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 19:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Alex "Coyle" Latham (talk · contribs) is an obvious sockpuppet of the banned puppetmaster 10alatham (talk · contribs); other accounts that have been banned but not formally linked include 2012alatham (talk · contribs) and 2014alatham (talk · contribs); can an admin intervene please? Thanks, GiantSnowman 19:38, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Blocked. Procedural note: the above named accounts have been blocked, not banned. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I am apparently reporting myself.

With respect to this thread on the ref desk: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#what_is_fat_people.27s_psychology.3F. I tagged this thread with a 'please be calm and focused' alert template, because it seemed to me that the OP was trying to sidle into some ref-desk trolling about fat people (which looks to be true as the thread plays out). The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk · contribs) seems to have taken offense to the template, we've been going back and forth on it a bit, and I may have gone one step over 3rr on it. I'll tell you frankly that I'm inclined to wp:IAR 3rr on this particular issue - the template is harmless and functional, and I can't get TFM to talk to me about it in any meaningful way, and I'd prefer to keep the template there in order to keep the tone of the discussion low-key. But I will bow to your collective judgement on the issue. --Ludwigs2 19:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The tag needs to stay, since the question looks like a trolling question. It also has a vaguely familiar ring to it, but I can't think of the particular troll (probably not LC). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Image deletion request reverted repeatedly

Resolved

 – Larger image deleted. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I downsized File:Carne de tu carne.jpg a month or so ago, as it didn't conform with WP:NFCC#3b. Over a week passed, as is the threshold required for deleting old versions of an oversized image. A user who seemed to disagree with it removed the template,[52] so I (hopefully politely) reverted, explaining why I thought it was necessary.[53] Now an IP (no idea if it's the same user) has decided to take it upon his or herself to repeatedly remove the tag: [54][55][56] and has twice escalated to personally attacking me for re-adding the template.[57][58] Each time they remove the tag it takes another week before it's eligible for deletion, and has never actually made it that far since the IP got involved.

As it did last the minimum requirement to delete the image on one occasion (it would have been eligible on October 24; tag was removed on November 3), could an admin go back and delete it now? As far as I'm aware it's a pretty open-and-shut case. As is, it's just gonna go back and forth, which is a little frustrating, tbh. Cheers. AllynJ (talk | contribs) 20:24, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Million Pound Drop question related edits

There was a suspicious edit to the Naomi Campbell page last night at the same time as the Channel 4 programme Million Pound Drop was running a question related to her age. The edit changed her year of birth to 1977 (from 1970), which was directly relevant to the question because it made her appear younger than Kate Moss. Shortly after the show gave the answer the change was undone by the same IP address. I can't be 100% certain, but I believe the original edit was made before the question was broadcast.

Shortly afterwards the same IP address edited the Isle of Man page at approximately the same time as Isle of Man was the subject of another question on the show. Again, the nature of the edit was relevant to the specific question asked. I'm not sure whether the edit was made prior to the question being broadcast, but the nature of the edit does suggest it was made by someone with foreknowledge of the question.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Naomi_Campbell&diff=395252978&oldid=395004743 for the Naomi Campbell edit. See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Isle_of_Man&diff=395253551&oldid=394829116 for the Isle of Man edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.187.202 (talk) 22:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

As said above by Seb az86556 (talk · contribs), the "IP is operated by Virgin Media out of Cardiff which also owns the TV channel in Cardiff... but there's nothing that can be done about this". Goodvac (talk) 22:12, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

"Owns the TV channel in Cardiff"? what does that mean. Cardiff has more than one TV channel available. The channel the program is broadcast on is Channel 4, which isn't owned by Virgin Media, nor is Endemol the producer of the show. --82.7.40.7 (talk) 22:17, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's what happened. Basically some bored teenager was watching the TV show while on their laptop. They decided it'd be a "lolz" to edit the article that the quiz show was asking questions about so that it seemed that the producers had got the answer wrong, tehehe! No big media conspiracy, just mindless vandalism. GiantSnowman 22:32, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Gilad Atzmon

Recent User:Runtshit-related vandalism. User:Soap has reverted and blocked the IP as a proxy, but the edit is a BLP violation and should be eliminated from the history. Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

Japanese Wikipedia administrator?

Is anyone here an admin at ja.wp? I'd report it on their noticeboard, but I'm bound to have my comment deleted for speaking the wrong language.

The issue:

• HighSpeed-X (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log): I've just laid down an indef block on him for an obnoxiously high level of disruption, cluelessness, and only being here to press an agenda. Not to mention he did no favors to himself by spamming User:Benlisquare on other wikis during his block.
• Benlisquare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log): has been the recipient of this spam, but has been quite uncivil in the meantime. He's also earned himself no favors by me by curtly ignoring my warning to not throw out personal attacks: [59], an issue for which you'll notice his talk page is full; I gave him the warning for this. However, after I gave him this warning, he gave this comment on ja wiki. Can I request an administrator block him on ja, or someone who speaks Japanese place a request there? This is totally inappropriate IMHO, especially after warning.
• On a similar issue, would it be appropriate to block Benlisquare on en.wp? Thoughts? Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• En.wiki and ja.wiki are different places with entirely different rules and controls, I'm afraid. I think it's probably best to keep en.wiki's drama on en.wiki and ja.wiki's drama on ja.wiki, and not to mix the two.—S Marshall T/C 00:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I notifed the WP:JAPAN editors of this request [60]. Some of them are active in the ja.Wikipedia. Cla68 (talk) 00:47, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment on User:HighSpeed-X. He doesn't listen and is a broken recorder. Coupled with His edit-warring, relentless POV-pushing, show of touch of racism, spamming, and stalking, he should get a permanent ban. While it may seem harsh, I highly doubt he'd actually learn to listen.

Comment on User:Benlisquare. He is just as bad. While he has done a lot of constructive editing in the past, it'll be wrong to exempt him from criticism. When faced with irritation caused by User:HighSpeed-X, he quickly lost his cool. Even after being given advice and warnings, he still decided it is okay to throw massive tantrums instead of filing a simple ANI/RfC/Mediation/Arbitration. If he melts down this easily when tailed by a simple generic pest, one'd need to stretch imagination a bit to estimate how User:Benlisquare'd behave when a much more annoying and creative editor is after him in the future. With this said, a permanent ban is too harsh for him given his contributions to Wikipedia. However, a several-day ban would be appropriate for him to learn how to be an adult.

Note: The links I provided do not include every instance of offense mentioned. -- Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:22, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Pandas do not eat bananas

Resolved

 – Sources appears to support that pandas will eat bananas when available; in any case this is not an admin issue. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 00:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Collapsed to avoid cluttering up the noticeboard; thread was already off-topic, and is becoming even more so.

Wrong venue. Please move to Talk:Panda I cannot edit the article about pandas because it is protected. But it is claiming that Pandas' diet includes bananas. In zoos, maybe. But in the wild? Come on guys, that's total bullshit. So can someone change that please, since I'm unable to cause of your nanny state not trusting IPs crap? Cheers! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.253.37 (talk • contribs) 23:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC) (edit conflict) Sigh; you would probably have a great deal more success if you took this to the correct venue, used civil language, and provided a source verifying your claim. You can use the {{editsemiprotected}} template to request that an edit be made to the article. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 23:59, 7 November 2010 (UTC) I would be more likely to use civil langauge if I haven't been fucked over a few times today by strange people on the encyclopedia! Anyway I don't need a source, I only need some common bloody sense, the panda's natural habitat simply doesn't overlap with bananas... I suppose it's just about possible in a few tiny locations it does now, I don't know where banana farms are, but if that is the case it's a historical fucking aberation, jesus. Pandas live on bamboo, they don't eat bananas. Off2riorob (talk) 00:07, 8 November 2010 (UTC) The source cited in the article says their diet is 99 percent bamboo, but they will eat various other things, including bananas, when available. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC) Bananas are found extensively across SE Asia, and as far as I know that includes parts of SW China - and the reference provided in the article does actually support the claim. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC) And yes, it's a common falsehood that pandas eat nothing but bamboo. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC) {ec)Based on the warnings (final, huh?) on his talk page and some of the diffs, I doubt this IP really cares that much. Anyways, it is sourced. Cptnono (talk) 00:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC) i changed the text in the article so its more like the text in the reference. but 86.161.253.37 your just going to make people mad if you complain about this here. Aisha9152 (talk) 00:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC) Pandas will eat pretty much anything, including dead animals, they just primarily eat bamboo. HalfShadow 00:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC) No way, them Pandas is vegetarian. Off2riorob (talk) 00:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC) Nope, just *mostly* vegetarian. They possess an ursine digestive system - they're bears. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC) Hence they are omnivores, they just have a thing for bamboo. For comparison, cats are typically considered carnivores, yet they will graze like cows when given the chance. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC) And the IP is blocked now - moving along... -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC) It's a welcome change to discuss the ursine digestive system from the point of view of its input rather than its output. Me, I just don't go to the woods any more, since I'm not geared up these days for a big surprise. Rodhullandemu 00:27, 8 November 2010 (UTC) haha - when you are in the woods and bears may be living there you tend to keep your eyes and ears open. - Pandas have the digestive system of a carnivore, but they have adapted to a vegetarian diet of bamboos. A panda may eat 12-38kg of bamboo a day http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/endangered_species/giant_panda Pandas have been ridiculed for their decidedly non-bearlike vegetarian diets, http://discovermagazine.com/2008/aug/05-could-pandas-be-an-evolutionary-mistake2014or-proof-of-an-intelligent-designer - just sayin there are differing opinions, some of the claims are from captured zoo animals..... moving on... Off2riorob (talk) 00:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC) Naturally you'll keep your eyes and ears open when there are bears about - you don't want them stealing your bananas :-) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:34, 8 November 2010 (UTC) If you google [panda diet facts], you will find overlapping info about what they eat. The sources all agree they eat 95-99 percent bamboo. Ironically, they don't digest it well, so they are constantly eating, and their output is significant. The other 1-5 percent of their diet appears to be just about anything, including mice and bananas. Seems like the endangerment to this species could be alleviated by finding a bamboo substitute. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:40, 8 November 2010 (UTC) "Output". That's a polite way of saying these bears shit in the woods. A lot. HalfShadow 00:42, 8 November 2010 (UTC) That was an interesting discussion - or at least it made me laugh. It occurs to me that the statement 'Pandas do not eat bananas' would fall foul of WP:RS though. You can't actually state what Pandas don't do, only what they've been observed doing, and having seen Pandas not eating bananas is no proof that they don't do it when you're not looking... All right, only kidding. Back to serious issues. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC) - What is it with all this hating and archiving, can't we even have a little laugh without authority being shut down Off2riorob (talk) 00:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• - What is it with all this hating and archiving, can't we even have a little laugh without authority being shut down and running to the report board instead of discussing it like adults.Off2riorob (talk) 00:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Facepalm So much for humour, let alone wit; this is a noticeboard for Admins, and Admins should decide when the horse has been flogged beyond collective tolerance. Some levity in the face of all the other tendentious crap we have to put up with here is welcome. And they say the Germans have no sense of humour.... Rodhullandemu 01:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
    • I would think we all have better things to do than clutter up ANI, both in terms of space and edit conflicting, by having an off-topic talk about pandas eating bananas and then criticising an editor for rightly collapsing it. Talk pages aren't general chat forums, and neither is ANI. Frankly this thread is just getting ridiculous and demonstrates how ANI gets its bad reputation. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 01:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
      • Lighten up man, wikipedia is not a police state - and as Rod says sometimes we need a laugh round here and I know this is ANI but as I have seen, occasionally, even here, humorous threads do break out and the wheels don't drop off.Off2riorob (talk) 01:13, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

User (bot?) is adding (nonexistent?) template to numerous articles

Mhiji has added {{Italic}} to the top of numerous articles recently. Doesn't look like any kind of vandalism I've seen before; AGF prompts me to post this here. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 00:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

It redirects to {{Italic title}}, which makes the article title italic. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:14, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

• This doesn't seem to require admin attention; likely the user just needs to be informed that the edits are unnecessary / don't have consensus. Just plain Bill, do you have any objection to the thread being closed? Discussion can continue on the user's talk page and return here if they continue to make the edits and fail to discuss it. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 00:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

OK to close, if you see no damage being done. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 01:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Possible User:Bambifan101 sock

There have been some suspicious IP edits by Special:Contributions/98.85.78.64 and Special:Contributions/98.85.10.44 altering running times and dates and other various film credits which fits the MO of User:Bambifan101. Furthermore it's from a suspected Bambifan101 IP range as per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bambifan101/Archive#03_October_2010_2. Can an admin look into this case please, and a possible range block? Thanks. Betty Logan (talk) 00:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's another IP from the same range corrupting film information since the sock investigation was filed: Special:Contributions/98.85.7.221. This is affecting dozens of articles, so a range block is seriously needed here guys. Betty Logan (talk) 00:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh fuck, not him again... HalfShadow 00:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

what the hell I thought we were done with this idiot a long time ago, PS the range block would be 98.85.0.0/17Access Denied – talk to me 01:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

My sock pupper investigation

Attention all admins. I am Ezekiel, and I want you to look at my long sock puppet investigation, having individual evidences for each subject showing how familiar they are, what they, did, and how they reveal they are the same user, created by me. ;) Link; Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations#Blocky_cuzco I know, it might be very long. But it's to make more sense how they are familiar. So please, look now. :) Ezekiel! ^{Talk to meh.See what I'm doin'.} 01:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Posting here won't make the SPI go any faster. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 02:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Administrator eyes needed on unblock-l

As happens from time to time, we don't have very many administrators active right now on unblock-l, which is the mailing list on which blocked users are invited to submit requests for unblocking. If a few more admins would get involved on this list and respond to some of the pending and incoming requests, it would be very helpful. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)