Talk:Defender (association football)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Defender (association football) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers.

This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.

[[Formation (association football)#2–3–5 (''Pyramid'')|2–3–5 formation]]

Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | Reporting errors

unnecessary

I suggest that this article is unnecessary and should be deleted, as it repeats what is covered in football (soccer) positions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.37.201 (talk • contribs) 12:05, 9 March 2006‎

Suggested merge

All the minor positions could be merged into the four main positions. Goalkeepers, defenders, midfielders and strikers. Ideally, all four should merge back into Football (soccer) positions as the articles are not detailed enough to warrant a split. --Dodo bird 20:23, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the four major positions (goalkeeper, defender, midfield, striker) should be kept, but sub-positions (such as wingback, fullback, sweeper, etc) should be merged into defenders. GillsMan 10:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you do merge the pages, remember that the same terms "wingback" "fullback" and "halfback" are positions in American football and rugby too. It would be nice to keep the description general enough so that people can see the conection between the sports. If you merge the pages make sure people who travel here from rugby or american football pages don't get confused. --Alpharigel 00:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My intention is to merge the section on association football(not the full article) and add a disambiguity link at the top of the page(e.g. For the fullback position in association football, see Defender(football)) Another alternative would be to summarise the position in a sentence and add a "main article: Defender(football)" to direct users here.--Dodo bird 06:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I did the merge for wingbacks, and fullbacks. And cut and paste some info from the Football (soccer) positions too. This article is still less detailed than Football (soccer) positions. --Dodo bird 15:49, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

"Antonio Cabrini and Paolo Maldini are considered the greatest full-backs in the history of Italian football." That seems a little POV to me - especially considering I would opt for Giacinto Facchetti over Paolo Maldini any day. Nicander 07:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It now reads: "Franz Beckenbauer, Elías Figueroa, Franco Baresi, Frank Rijkaard, are some of the best ever sweepers in football history. Paolo Montero, Marco Materazzi, Rafael Márquez and Rio Ferdinand would probably serve as the best modern-day examples". I would suggest it be changed to "Franz Beckenbauer, Elías Figueroa, Franco Baresi and Frank Rijkaard are regarded by many to be some of the best sweepers in football history". The last part isn't really relevant. Any oppositions to the idea? Mageslayer99 18:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Best players" does not equal "my favourite players"

Please stop removing players who are listed as been the best in their positions and replacing them with your own favourite players.

82.42.115.204 removed Walter Samuel and Rio Ferdinand, and put Jamie Carragher in their place. Rio Ferdinand has been named in the FIFPro World XI (2005), the PFA Team of the Year XI (2007), is first-choice centre-back for England, and has twice as many international appearances as Carragher. Carragher is third-choice centre-back for England and hasn't won any individual awards, nor is he talked of as being better than Ferdinand except by Liverpool fans.

If you want to remove a player, then justify the removal. Personally, I think there are better examples than Walter Samuel and Carlos Puyol. Can anybody come up with a reasonable list of better players? I'd put Jaap Stam into the list. Kronix1986 03:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Diego Lugano is a good example of a centre-back. He should be in this article. Samuel is good but Diego makes for a better centre-back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rokkafellah (talk • contribs) 03:15, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References to players should be used carefully

To avoid what the last section claims, references to players should be used carefully. Articles in this encyclopedia need to have encyclopedic content: a neutral point of view and historical references only. It is understandable that fans want to use their favorite player as an example when explaining a role in the field, but as there are so many different tastes and opinions, the article will be edited forever, with no clear content.

Also, references to modern teams are no good example for the purpose of the article. Things change very fast in football, and this would led to a continuous edition of the article. And just as a comment, the last version of this article was heavily biased to AC Milan.Grajales 17:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Player examples for each position

If details for each position are going ot be given (centerback, sweeper, etc.), we ought to do a better job... how is Rio considered a sweeper? He is a centerback, period. I'll remove him from the list of current sweepers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Blues (talk • contribs) 19:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop re-adding lists of the "best" players in each position, which end up actually being lists of your favourite players. For the sake of NPOV and NOR, there should be no such lists in this article. --Aqwis (talk – contributions) 16:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fullback

Aren't the defenders on the sides normally known as side back? Not fullbacks? We say someone players right back, or someone plays left back! So shouldn't we refer to the position as side back?

Also I couldn't find anything mentioning an overlapping run? Should we had something about that? Also why do we have separate pages for positions but a page with all of them in it?

Simba1409 (talk) 21:41, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such position as side-back. You make a good case for there being one, but there isn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.35.2 (talk) 12:51, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. See other move discussion linked in poll. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:39, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Defender (association football) → Defender – Defender was originally a disambiguation page. It was moved to Defender (disambiguation) and redirected to Defender (association football) on 27 August 2009. I placed a technical request at Wikipedia:Requested moves, asking to move Defender (association football) to Defender, but this request was contested. Therefore I bring this issue here for discussion. There has to be a move. If the association football defender is really the primary meaning of the term, then it should be moved to Defender. If it is not the primary meaning, then Defender (disambiguation) should be moved back to Defender. I am neutral on this issue. Either solution is fine for me. Pengyanan (talk) 19:58, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Strong oppose Defender should be a disambiguation page, how could anyone interpret the soccer term as primary? 70.24.244.198 (talk) 03:22, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose; I don't see any justification for treating this as the primary topic. Powers ^T 13:53, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose; it would require mind-reading skills for us to determine whether it is "much more likely" that a reader who is searching for "Defender" is looking for the football type rather than any of the other meanings, several of which are in common use. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 19:05, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose (ish). The football position is not the primary topic; wherever it goes, it shouldn't be at Defender. I'd rather see disambiguation at Defender due to the wide range of possible uses, none of which is overwhelmingly prevalent, or as a minimum it ought to redirect to Defender (disambiguation). bobrayner (talk) 13:09, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The term "defender" has so many uses that it must be a DAB. The term is even used commonly in many sports, not just soccer. It also has many non-sports uses. Stedrick (talk) 17:43, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

See an earlier move request at Talk:Defender (disambiguation) that is older than this one by a few minutes. 70.24.244.198 (talk) 03:30, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

a sweeper is not a libero

It's a mistake to pronounce a sweeper as (libero). A libero is the free position in a 4 back defense; the sweeper is always placed behind a 3-back defense= italian Catenaccio. Franz Beckenbauer is a libero, Terry Butcher is a sweeper.Ramloser 15:49, 3 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramloser (talk • contribs)

A Sweeper is placed behind the centre-backs, with limited defending role, while a Libero is a defender with a free-role. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.70.42 (talk) 22:52, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually equating the libero role with the sweeper position is correct, as libero (meaning "free" in Italian) is the Italian term which was used to describe a sweeper in the catenaccio system, and there is no other term for the role in Italian, as it was meant to denote that it was a role occuped by a player acting as a free defender, who was not assigned a player to man–mark, and who would often sweep up play by playing behind the back–line. Players like Beckenbauer, Scirea, and Baresi revolutionised the role as man–marking became obsolete and it evolved to be a more creative and offensive minded position, with the modern libero advancing into midfield to carry the ball out or start attacking plays from the back with their passing, in addition to still holding defensive duties. This is explained in the paragraph. Best, Messirulez (talk) 14:12, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A libero is a defender with free role. A sweeper is a defender with no free role. 188.113.95.213 (talk) 20:32, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't wing backs rather midfielders, not defenders ???

--178.235.183.165 (talk) 13:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Fundell-Libero" does not exist

There are no sources outside Wiki using the term "Fundell-libero". I guess some Fundell just played a joke - this edit was anonymous and somehow everyone missed it.

See: (cur | prev) 10:44, 13 November 2012‎ 138.38.10.144 (talk)‎ . . (15,779 bytes) (+419)‎ . . (undo) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.123.241.176 (talk)

I agree; and there's nothing in the citations about sweepers becoming the most advanced forward, so it's original research or lacking citations if nothing else. I'll take it out. Meesher (talk) 14:51, 20 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Centre Back

The article is confusing when it discusses centre-halfs/halves. I was hoping to get some definition from the article, because I am confused, too, but I didn't. 67.170.238.175 (talk) 05:19, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Advanced center-back

What about the advanced center-back? An advanced center-back (let's call it ACB in this talk page for short) is a CB who goes past his back line for various reasons. Teams like Real Madrid and Barcelona have used such a CB/defensive midfielder hybrid in such formations as the 3-1-4-2. Here's an article about it:.^[1] Maybe we should create a fifth section, along with FB, CB, SW, and WB, for the ACB. What do you think?Thunder4231Rush (talk) 04:01, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2011/dec/13/the-question-3-1-4-2-formation-rise. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Defender (association football). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080327175724/http://accurapid.com:80/journal/44soccer.htm to http://accurapid.com/journal/44soccer.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:05, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

I propose that Sweeper (association football) be merged with Defender (association football).

There is already a good description of Sweeper in the Defender article and it appears to be accepted that is a position under the umbrella term of Defender, so there is no need for a separate article when all other specific positions are now just sections within the DF / MF / FW articles. Crowsus (talk) 04:58, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Merge - I don't think sweeper needs it's own article.--Echetus Xe 18:00, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The sweeper position doesn't require a separate article. It should be merged with defender. TomSac (talk) 12:07, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Woops forgot to do the merge! Will get it done this weekend. Crowsus (talk) 06:54, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Merge now completed. Crowsus (talk) 03:13, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Or Half Back

Commonly used the terminology of "half-back" or "sweeper". It was a key support position and responsibilities include:

On offense, keep the ball on the offensive should it come out of offensive area, provide corner, free kicks and throw-ins, it was usually an unguarded position...
On defense, it would assist the defensive line in clearing the ball from the defensive area.

In either case, it was a free roaming position, required great stamina and aggressiveness, and is one of the most regarded and taxing positions. There can be multiple half backs too, in the case of 4-2-3, but most cases it is 4-1-4. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.61.146.126 (talk) 17:17, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2019 and 5 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Boyabdul.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:12, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The player that illustrates the Wing-back position is inadequate.

This article consistently uses world-renowned players as examples of each position (such as John Terry or Philipp Lahm), I think it is inconsistent to illustrate the wing-back position with the obscure Australian international Caitlin Foord; moreover, the female version of the game is extremely far from being on par with the male one, which means it is unlikely that people will recognise the female players (therefore the example loses its illustrative force).

I suggest illustrating the wing-back position with a well-known international such as Maicon (Brazil), Cafú (Brazil), Javier Zanetti (Argentina), Dani Alves (Brazil), or Ashley Young (England). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chesterton fence (talk • contribs) 14:28, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't remove this image; the gender gap and the lack of female footballers on certain pages is an issue which has already been brought up by certain users, and which we have been trying to address. Thanks. Messirulez (talk) 14:02, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Female Representation on Wikipedia Association Football Pages

Please stop removing the sourced information and images of female footballers; there are reliable sources, the photo includes a player who plays in this respective position, and if anything we need more female representation in association football pages on Wikipedia. Thank you.

Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 02:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

Leighton baines (right) marking Cristiano Ronaldo (left).jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:09, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Citation overkill alert

There are too many. Both for the average reader to read comfortably and for me to fix. Three should be enough for anyone. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:33, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ 138.118.232.148 (talk) 03:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thiago Silva, Virgil van Dijk and Fabio Cannavaro missing in article

no mention of Thiago Silva, van Dijk and Cannavaro 43.224.38.239 (talk) 02:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2011/dec/13/the-question-3-1-4-2-formation-rise. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

[1]