Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis
Marcin Kafar
University of Lodz, Poland
Carolyn Ellis
University of South Florida, U.S.A.
is an Assistant Professor at the Uni-
munication (University of South Florida, U.S.A.) where he
versity of Lodz (Poland) where he teaches anthropology
cooperated with Arthur P. Bochner and Carolyn Ellis.
and qualitative research methodology. He is the origina-
email address: marcin.kafar1@gmail.com
tor of the “Biographical Perspectives” research project,
author of In the World of Exiles, Widows, and Orphans: On
Carolyn Ellis
a Certain Variant of Engaged Anthropology (W świecie wyg-
communication at the University of South Florida in Tampa. Her
nańców, wdów i sierot. O pewnym wariancie antropologii zaan-
most recent books include: The Ethnographic I: A Methodological
gażowanej) (2013), and editor of Scientiic Biographies: Between
Novel About Autoethnography; Revision: Autoethnographic Relections
the “Professional” and “Non-Professional” Dimensions of Hu-
on Life and Work; Music Autoethnographies: Making Autoethnogra-
manistic Experiences (2013), as well as Scientiic Biographies:
phy Sing/Making Music Personal (with Brydie-Leigh Bartlet), and
A Transdisciplinary Perspectives (Biograie naukowe. Perspekty-
with Tony Adams and Stacy Holman Jones both the Handbook of
wa transdyscyplinarna) (2011); he also co-edited two other
Autoethnography, as well as Autoethnography: Understanding Quali-
books, namely, Autobiography―Biography―Narration: Re-
tative Research Series (in press, Oxford University Press). She has
search Practice for Biographical Perspectives (2013) and In the
published numerous articles and personal stories situated in
Face of New Challenges: Dilemmas of Young Academic Faculty
emotions and interpretive representations of qualitative research,
(W obliczu nowych wyzwań. Dylematy młodej kadry akademick-
particularly autoethnography. Her current research focuses on
iej) (2010). His permanent scientiic interests include: the-
listening to Holocaust testimonies, sharing authority in a collab-
ory and methodology of social sciences, narrativism, and
orative research process with irst- and second-generation survi-
Autoethnography; Storytelling; Personal Narrative; Scientiic Auto/Biographies; Ethos, Carolyn
broadly deined medical anthropology. In 2010, he partici-
vors, and making documentaries about her work with survivors.
Ellis
pated in a scientiic internship at the Department of Com-
email address: cellis@usf.edu
Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived:
A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar
and Carolyn Ellis
Abstract This conversation takes place in Warsaw. Carolyn Ellis has come to Poland to accompany Jerry
Rawicki, a Warsaw Gheto survivor, on his irst trip back to Poland since the Holocaust. There
she arranged to meet Marcin Kafar, a scholar in Poland who has spent time with her at the University of South Florida in Tampa, Florida. During this visit, Marcin assists Carolyn with video
recording Jerry’s experiences as they visit Holocaust sites, and Jerry remembers and relects on
his experience. Afterwards, Marcin converses with Carolyn about autoethnography, storytelling,
and the importance of life in the context of searching for ethos by academics.
Keywords
Marcin Kafar
Stories and the Importance of Life
in the First Place
Marcin: Carolyn, tell me, how you feel about stories?
is a distinguished university professor of
ready, let’s go back to September 2010. I remember
an internship in your department?” The answer you
Marcin: You reminded me of a leter I wrote earli-
it was a very hot afternoon in Tampa that day. We
gave me was as much surprising as intriguing. Do
er to you and Art [Bochner], and you said that the
had just inished our autoethnography class and
you remember what that answer was?
leter had made a positive impact on both of you.
You also admited that what really convinced you to
you asked me if I wanted to visit your local wildlife
reserve. Do you remember it?
Carolyn: Oh, I love stories!
Carolyn: Yes, I do!
Marcin: Ok. Then let me start our conversation by
Carolyn: I remember some of it. I said that I had
continue our relationship was not strictly connected
many scholars who wanted to visit us and I almost
with science as such but rather stemmed from, to
always said “no.” But, I had really appreciated what
paraphrase Victor Turner’s term, dramas of life (cf.
you wrote to me when asking to come. It had in-
Turner 1978). You continued, “A lot of people want
trigued me and I saw that we were kindred spirits...
to come and work with us, but most of the time
reminding you of one particular story. Actually, this
Marcin: When I said “yes,” you changed your for-
is a story about a situation we both participated in.
mal clothes into casual wear, we jumped into your
I assume that that situation and the story about it
car and headed for Letuce Lake Park, the place
Marcin: That is correct. But, I remember something
is time consuming and draws our atention away
might serve as a sort of passage both to our com-
packed with greedy alligators. We were walking
else...
from our work. Your leter was diferent. It was not
mon biographical ground and to a wider context of
through treacherous marsh when I suddenly asked
a biographically centered view of science. If you’re
you, “Carolyn, why did you decide to invite me for
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we reject those proposals because having visitors
about completing another scientiic project; instead,
Carolyn: What else do you remember?
it was about life in the irst place.” The words you
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Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis
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used here are of exceptional importance for me, “it
Marcin: You mean the sciences are, at least to some
Carolyn: What is more important to me is that we
Marcin: So maybe you should look for some alter-
was not about completing another scientiic project,
extent, complementary?
think about the whole person, that we do not have
native notions that would be more appropriate for
to split our lives, so that you’re one kind of person
expressing your ideas than phrases such as “life and
work,” or “relections on life and work”?
it was about life in the irst place.” Those words lingered in my mind, and I think they might be crucial
Carolyn: Yes, they all are diferent approaches to-
here and something else there. I would like those
for you, too.
wards understanding human beings, our life. In
two spheres to be integrated.
Carolyn: Mm, it probably should be relections on
some ways, for me, the individual is the unit I think
Carolyn: Yes, they are because they relate to life as
most about. The unit of analysis, in sociological
Marcin: This is exactly what I meant when I sug-
personal and professional life. I resist using “pri-
lived. It’s what I always say. What’s most interesting
terms. I’m a sociologist so I should be thinking
gested that your autoethnographic project is set up
vate” because personal life may or may not be pri-
to me is what we’re doing right here in this moment,
about larger social collectivities, but I tend to focus
in the tension between your private and profession-
vate—often it is not.
being together, interacting with each other, think-
on the individual in a social context. That’s where
al life. It becomes clear when we skim over your pa-
ing, feeling, caring, supporting. Being here now in
I feel most at home and where I think I have most to
pers. Let’s consider the title of your last book, Re-
Marcin: That doesn’t sound as evocative, but cer-
this life is the way I know to make meaning out of
ofer. I’m a natural social psychologist.
vision: Autoethnographic Relections on Life and Work
tainly it seems to be reasonable to use these terms
(Ellis 2009).
for rhetorical purposes.
Carolyn: So are you having a problem with the title
Carolyn: Exactly! You need a title that can grab peo-
itself?
ple. What you’ve been saying—that my title displays
the life that we have. It’s not meaningful to me to
just gather knowledge for the sake of knowledge.
Life Informs Work / Work Informs Life
I have to feel that whatever I am doing is potentially
making life beter. The only way I can make sense
Marcin: Carolyn, in works of thinkers, or beter to
of that is that I am being caring and loving and giv-
say, writers who are “innerly integrated,” we can
ing, now, in this moment. Hopefully then together,
expect to ind some basic thoughts, a sort of core
Marcin: Well, I am not having a problem, but
right. It’s rhetorical, it’s snappy, it surprises more
collectively in our research, we are being loving and
ideas, or at least one trope that is overwhelming. In
I think there is a problem out there, and I’m interested
traditional people, but at the same time it makes
caring and wanting to make life more satisfying for
reading your texts, we’re able to detect quite easily
in it.
them “look at it,” because they think of work sepa-
more people.
a kind of idée ixe. Would you agree with me that this
Marcin: So what about doing science then?
an artiicial separation of “life” and “work,” you’re
rated from life, meaning “personal life.” Here, they
idea is an interplay of what is “private” and what is
Carolyn: Let me think about what you are saying.
“public,” “professional” experience?
This title might convey that I accept the division between life and work. But, what I think I was trying
Marcin: When you use the word “work,” is it a synonym of the phrase “doing science”?
Carolyn: I have no problem with science. We need
Carolyn: Actually, I do not want to separate the
to say is that there is this division out in the world
science. For instance, science helps us eradicate ill-
“professional” from everything else.
that people buy into. We assume it’s true and it’s re-
nesses and thanks to science we can make some pre-
are being joined together.
ally not true, and I’m going to show readers how to
Carolyn: It does not necessarily mean “doing sci-
dictions that help to make life beter. But, I do not
Marcin: I see, but would you be willing to declare
bring these two aspects together. But, you’re right
ence.” I think we live as though work is something
think that science is the only story we have; it’s one
that this is the most important idea you’re working
that in some ways this title sustains the separation.
that we go separately to do and it has its boundaries
layer of story...
on?
In interpretive work, you have to speak a language
of time and space—though now in our mobile so-
that other people/scholars understand. So, I had to
ciety, less so in terms of space; and for some folks,
Carolyn: I do not know if I want to call it the most
say to them, “Here are these two things that tend to
such as productive academics, there aren’t speciic
important idea...
be separated. Now, I want to bring them together in
time boundaries either. For autoethnographers, life
this work.” I think that got readers’ atention. Schol-
and work tend to blend together since their work
Marcin: the scientiic one...
Carolyn: ...the scientiic one, yes, as in the physical sciences. As well, there are the social sciences—they’re
Marcin: What is then more important to you than
ars don’t usually talk about “life” as a concept, just
is writing about their lives. But, for most, work is
important as well.
this?
speciic aspects of it.
something you do from 8.00 to 5.00. You’re either
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doing “life” or you’re of doing your work. Work is
Carolyn: Not with quite the intention that I’m tell-
Marcin: Which means that when you plan to start to
with and buy into that term. At the International
what you have to do to make a living; life is all the
ing you now in hindsight.
be an autoethnographer, you must be accountable to
Congress of Qualitative Inquiry,1 I recently partic-
other people...
ipated in, I asked my audience, “Would you prefer
other stuf that happens. So, there is this artiicial
separation that we always have to live with, espe-
Marcin: So how did it happen that those phrases
cially in the United States.
eventually appeared in your book?
the term ‘collaborative witnessing’ or ‘intimate inCarolyn: Yes, you deinitely must...
terviewing,’ or ‘relational autoethnography’?” Most
liked “collaborative witnessing” the best. Now back
Marcin: In your The Ethnographic I, you write, “Life
Carolyn: To be honest, I came to think all this as
Marcin: What you’re saying now reminds me of Dan
to “ethnography”; many people connect to and iden-
Informs Work” (Ellis 2004:56). What does that
I wrote—writing as inquiry (cf. Richardson 1994).
Rose’s conviction that “ethnography is a way of life,”
tify with that term as a descriptor of an area, and
mean?
I wrote these thoughts into being. I was thinking
(cf. Rose 1990), which means ethnography is some-
they were an audience that I wanted to reach and
and constructing as I was writing.
thing more than “pure science” and consequently,
hopefully inluence.
ethnographers are not only “pure scientists” but
Carolyn: What it means is you never are separated
from your work, your research, or your life. You’re
Marcin: Was what you’re describing a conscious or
always who you are; your personal experiences in-
semi-conscious act?
also people commited to what they live by.
raphy is a “lifestyle,” but is it still a sort of science,
Carolyn: Ethnography is a lifestyle based on the
form the kind of project you choose, what you write,
Marcin: Carolyn, you just said that for you ethnogtoo?
Carolyn: Semi-conscious. I started with these no-
moral view that goes along with this lifestyle. It is
tions, but then I had to igure out how to tell a story
a way of treating people, a way of thinking about
Carolyn: Why are you so hung up on the word “sci-
Marcin: Ok. So what is the diference then between
about them and what the story was. Then I had to
the world, seeing other peoples’ lives as of value...
ence”?
life informing work and the meaning hidden in
also igure out how to persuade audience to come/
a phrase “our work becomes our life”? This is an-
stay with me, diicult because potential audiences
Marcin: Yes, but autoethnography is not traditional
Marcin: I do not know. Maybe because I’ve been try-
other passage in The Ethnographic I?
would be very diferent from each other. I had to ind
ethnography which was strictly concerned with ex-
ing to ind diferent ways of reading your books.
the point where I could reach the most people and
amining people and writing about them...
how you write, who you write to, all of that.
Carolyn: I am encouraging people to try to see with
reach them deeply. I didn’t want to address people
me, though I’m trying to guide them gradually and
who totally reject these ideas, but I didn’t want just to
Carolyn: ...and using people, and manipulating
much about science. I want to just say, “Science is
softly. I am saying, “Come with me and see how
talk to people who totally bought into it either.
them...
there, what I do connects to science, but it isn’t ful-
Carolyn: I love that! Truly, I resist even thinking so
ly contained there. I do stuf over here that is not
life informs your work, how life seeps into and becomes your work.” There are diferent stages in this
process of pulling people into the idea of “‘life’ and
Ethnography/Autoethnography as a Way
of Life
‘work’ as the same.” I like the phrases you’ve just
Marcin: That is true, and partly because of this,
there...”
I wonder why you decided to use the term “ethnography” for completing your very humanistic project.
Marcin: I know what you mean, but, in general,
recalled because they demonstrate the handhold-
Marcin: Carolyn, were you sure after your autoeth-
ing that took place in The Ethnographic I. Of course,
nographic conversion that you had chosen the right
Carolyn: Probably, my choice was political. If you
They start from the point of doing science and they
I didn’t do this on purpose, but if you come with me
path to do social science? Wasn’t that step risky?
want to be successful, you have to connect to the
talk about science. We were talking about using the
categories that are already there. You have to con-
term “ethnography” and you said it was political...
through the book, I’m holding your hand and tak-
people doing science need to use clear distinctions.
ing you to a place where you will feel and conclude:
Carolyn: It was risky because I didn’t know if I had
nect to something that people identify with rather
“Of course, we study our own lives!”
followers or would have followers. I didn’t know
than starting with completely new categories. For
what would happen if I had followers and then they
example, I’ve come up with the term “collaborative
had bad experiences that could ruin their lives...
witnessing,” and now I have to hope people connect
Marcin: You really didn’t do it on purpose?
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1
The ICQI is an annual conference, in its tenth year, that is held
in Urbana, Illinois and directed by Norman Denzin. The last
Congress atracted almost 2000 people from 70 diferent nations. The conference focuses on autoethnography, arts-based
qualitative methods, and social justice.
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Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis
Marcin Kafar & Carolyn Ellis
we become in it, and whether we truly care about it.
Carolyn: Well, it feels like a calling. You know, it is
Marcin: Right, what about the relevance of social,
To think of your work as a calling in the strongest
so hard to talk about that, but I really believe in it.
practical, cultural, and political factors?
Marcin: So, relating to science, or at least to the term
sense of the word is to make your work morally in-
You have to believe in a calling. It’s sort of like being
“science,” is also political.
separable from your life” (Bochner 2009:16). Caro-
saved or geting religious or whatever, you have to
Carolyn: Here is the irony: if you’re self-absorbed,
lyn, how would you classify your academic work? Is
have a belief in it to make it work...
it’s hard—maybe impossible—to be a good autoeth-
Carolyn: Yes, you’re right...
Carolyn: Yes, it is. Now, I’m going to reverse myself
nographer. That’s the irst time I’ve expressed it in
it a job, a career, or a calling?
and say, “I do think somewhat like a scientist.” And
Marcin: Do you believe that what you do has a reli-
this way. Part of being a good autoethnographer is
gious element in it?
having a sense of the other, the larger, the social, the
what I do also overlaps with what creative writers
Carolyn: My academic work is a calling. The writ-
do, though we have a diferent orientation. I do hu-
ing, the autoethnography, the storytelling, the
manities from the point of view of a scientist. In that
teaching—all are part of a calling. Unfortunately,
Carolyn: Well, no, well, it may... I believe that the
connection between the humanities and social sci-
the role of chairing is more of a job or career...
practice of autoethnography has added to my life,
Marcin: Very often autoethnography is viewed only
helped me understand things I didn’t understand
as a method, and probably that’s a mistake.
ence there is a space that I really like to operate in.
So, I don’t reject science. In fact, most of my audience
Marcin: So, you have to be split...
is composed of people who consider themselves sci-
collective good.
and I see it doing that for other people. There is
some peace that can come out of it, from the search-
Carolyn: Yes, it is. I want to expand autoethnogra-
entists. I want to say to them, “You don’t have to just
Carolyn: I do now, which is why I don’t particularly like
ing; some understanding, some clues about how to
phy to include all we’ve been talking about. But, the
be in that space. There is a whole other space here
being a department chair. I’m trying to turn the chair-
live a good life, so that’s religious sounding.
other part of my identifying as an autoethnographer
that we can operate in and bring the best of science,
ing into a calling, but I haven’t been able to do that yet.
social science, too, to connect to humanities.” I don’t
is that autoethnography is a political act for me. It’s
Marcin: Art [Bochner] also encourages us to truly
the only label under which I think I have enough
think of science and humanities so much as binary
Marcin: Umm, a calling is an ideal, which means it’s
care about our work. What do you truly care about
authority or legitimacy to make anything happen,
but as a continuum. I know there is a large part of
always one step ahead of you...
when you connect yourself to your work, Carolyn?
to contribute to social change. So, it’s really important to me that, for instance, you would call yourself
the world that thinks of science and humanities as
binary so they get all upset with what I’m doing be-
Carolyn: That’s a good way to say it. Yes, it is...
cause it doesn’t it into their categories.
Autoethnography as a Calling
Carolyn: What do I care about? I care that I feel that
an autoethnographer because that increases its le-
I’m doing the best I can. By that I mean that other
gitimacy.
Marcin: ...and that is why you can only aspire to
people get considered along with myself, that my
achieve it.
work is not just a selish act, and that I am doing the
best I am able to do under these particular circum-
Marcin: If you don’t mind, I would like to return to
Carolyn: Yes, you cannot really achieve it because if
the problem of terms. One of your favorite scholars,
you reach it, then it’s not calling you anymore.
Art Bochner, writes, “We need to think seriously
about the terms by which we conceive of our aca-
Marcin: So, it’s deinitely a hard task to consciously act
demic work—as a job, a career, or a calling—because
as someone chosen, or as someone who has been called.
these terms largely deine what we come to believe,
how we behave, and how we understand and en-
Carolyn: I agree.
act our connections to others in our community of
Losing Ourselves / Connecting to Others
in Our Work
stances.
Marcin: I would like to ask you to make some comMarcin: Do you think there is any set of beliefs that
ments about a fragment of your piece titled Jumping
are or should be shared by all autoethnographers?
On and Of the Runaway Train of Success: Stress and
Commited Intensity in an Academic Life (2011). There is
Carolyn: Yes, compassion and empathy—valuing
a dialogue in this text that is based on your conver-
them and enacting them. We have to have both.
sation with Art [Bochner]. When Art reminds you
Caring about love and being able to love. All of
that the work you do is a “calling” and it cannot be
practice. Each of these terms emplots a diferent sto-
Marcin: So, Carolyn, to what extent is what you’re
those feminine characteristics, they have to be
separated from the rest of your life, you quite un-
ry of how we understand our work, how invested
doing academically a calling?
there.
expectedly reply, “I do feel called to this work―to
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autoethnography, ethnography, and now my work
Carolyn: Yes, I think that even for relationship there
fruit. Ethos means environment, homestead,
these stories and conversations with theoretical per-
with survivors ... but sometimes I get so lost in the
are aspects that might be able to be developed that
which is to say—a ield of life. Any living being,
spectives and/or a focus on some phenomenon they
details, I lose touch with that feeling ... sometimes
are not. That’s why Art and I like to go to the moun-
including human beings, can develop only when
want to understand.3 Collaborative witnessing is
I just want to make sure that I don’t lose me and
tains and hike. We become somewhat diferent peo-
that being has its own ethos—a place to be able to
connected with empathy, compassion, and caring,
become one-dimensional in feeling that work is all
ple there. We are less obsessed about our work and
live a fruitful life. Can you say, Carolyn, that you
and with the hope that this work will be helpful to
that maters. Or that we don’t lose ‘us’ in our dedica-
we develop diferent aspects of ourselves, which
already have found your ethos?
other people, not just to us—researchers. Does that
tion to our life as professors” (Ellis 2011:169).
makes us more interesting to each other.
make sense?
Carolyn: I think probably so. But, I also think you
Carolyn: Umm, that’s the danger—that our work
Marcin: So being in the mountains is an investment
want to never stop searching, discovering, and
Marcin: Yes, it does, but it’s very hard to predict how
takes us over. These ideas are jumbled and I don’t
in yourselves and your relationship, isn’t it?
growing, similar to responding to a “calling.” For
our work afects other people’s lives.
example, when I started work with Holocaust sur-
reach a conclusion in this piece. On the one hand,
all I really have is my personal experience at this
Carolyn: Yes, very much so. But, there are activities
vivors, a new world opened up to me. It became im-
Carolyn: Yes, it is. So I feel that all I can do is just
moment, which for Art and me is having work and
we don’t get to do and identities we don’t get to enact
portant to me to tell survivors’ stories in a process
keep working and trying to write prose that is help-
life be the same. This life has been unbelievably re-
in the mountains that we do get to fulill in Tampa.
of “collaborative witnessing” or “relational autoeth-
ful. For example, coming here; I felt that this was
warding for us, our relationship, growth, and devel-
It makes life fuller to spend time in both places, and
nography” that emphasizes “working with” and
such a big event in Jerry’s life, how could I not be
opment. It has given us a sense of being in the world
get a bit out of the obsessive work head we get into
contributing to the life of participants, family mem-
here? I also felt that it was a big step forward in col-
and doing something important, helping others.
in Tampa where we’re teaching, mentoring, and en-
bers, and readers.2 In some way, this work circles
laborative witnessing—to accompany Jerry on such
On the other hand, because the work has taken us
gaged in service activities in addition to our research.
back to “science” in terms of working with other
an important trip rather than to just participate in
people to tell their stories, but doing it from an au-
interviews. During this time, I had important deci-
over, we have made decisions that may not be ones
I would have made if that had not been the case,
Marcin: Now you’re telling me a very important
toethnographic perspective. So, now I can connect
sions to make that helped me understand some of
for example, not have children, in part, because they
fact: that not only are thoughts and feelings crucial
autoethnography directly to a focus on telling the
the complexities in compassionate witnessing. For
would have taken us from our work.
for you but also crucial is a material world—a real
stories of others, and that has become very import-
example, do I videotape Jerry when he returns to
space like Tampa and your mountains.
ant to me. Though a number of scholars advocate
Treblinka, where his family was killed? I think not,
collaborative research, they are not doing collabo-
because I do not want to risk making this event into
Carolyn: Yes, the two spaces have diferent demands
rative witnessing. They intersect autoethnographies
a spectacle and because my being with him is more
and rewards, but are both important.
primarily of their researcher selves and combine
important than my capturing and recording what
Marcin: Yes, but you never know whether the decision you make is good or not.
happens. That has to be true. So, this trip is really
Carolyn: True, but you make decisions the best you
can. If I were now on my death bed and somebody
Marcin: Carolyn, I sometimes use in my works a no-
says, “If you could do your life over, would you do
tion of “ethos” (cf., e.g., Kafar 2011; 2013). Do you
it diferently?”, I would say “no.” This life has been
know what “ethos” originally meant?
really, really rewarding, but I do want to be aware
that if you put all your focus on work, there are oth-
Carolyn: No, I don’t, but I know this concept is very
er things that might be missed.
important to you.
Marcin: Umm, I think “rewarding” is a key word
Marcin: It’s a Greek word meaning, among other
here.
things, a place where plants can grow and bear
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2
Collaborative witnessing is a form of relational autoethnography that allows researchers to focus on and evocatively tell
the lives of others in shared storytelling and conversation. Carolyn has used this approach in her interviews with Holocaust
survivors, in particular with Jerry Rawicki, a Warsaw Gheto
survivor, with whom she has coauthored four articles and stories (see: Rawicki and Ellis 2011; Ellis and Rawicki 2013; 2014 (in
press)). This approach its with the deinition of autoethnography as about and for others, as well as about and for a researcher. It is a relational practice that asks that we enter the experience of the other as much as we think about the experience of
the self and it requires us to take others’ roles as fully as we
can, and to consider why, given their histories and locations,
as well as their relexive processes, they act in the world and
respond the way they do.
a test of the approach, and then it’s also a working
For example, in duoethnography (cf. Norris, Sawyer, and
Lund 2012), multiple researchers juxtapose their own autoethnographic accounts about the research question and
integrate their separate indings to provide multiple perspectives on a social phenomenon. In collaborative writing (see:
Diversi and Moreria 2009; Gale et al. 2012), multiple writers,
who may not be in the same place or writing at the same time,
co-produce an autoethnographic story. In collaborative autoethnography (cf. Chang, Ngunjiri, and Hernandez 2013),
several researchers write individual autoethnographies and
simultaneously contribute their individual indings for collective analysis.
3
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Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis
Marcin Kafar & Carolyn Ellis
out of the approach and the complexity in the ap-
Heider used autoethnography in 1975 to refer to the
Carolyn: Umm, do you have any particular scholars
ground of what is currently called autoethnography
proach.4
Dani’s own account of what people do, but David
in mind when you say that?
starts to be clear. Maybe you remember, Carolyn,
Hayano usually is credited as the originator of the
that during one of your autoethnography classes at
term. Hayano limited the meaning to cultural-lev-
Marcin: Yes, I do, and, unfortunately, some of them
the University of South Florida, I asked you whether
el studies by anthropologists of their ‘own people,’
have been forgoten for years. For example, an old
you could imagine yourself being an autoethnogra-
Marcin: Carolyn, now I would like us to talk about
in which the researcher is a full insider by virtue
Polish ethnographer, Kazimiera Zawistowicz-Ad-
pher 30 or 40 years ago?
autoethnography as a method. First, let’s try to
of being ‘native,’ acquiring an intimate familiarity
amska, who, in her revelatory book—Społeczność
compose the historical background of doing au-
with the group, or achieving full membership in
wiejska [A Peasant Community] (1948), conirms her
Carolyn: Yes, I do remember. I probably wouldn’t
toethnography. How would you deine autoeth-
the group being studied. His study of professional
passage from traditional ethnography into engaged
have been able to write my evocative stories at that
nography?
poker players, of which he is one, exempliies this
anthropology. In the process of researching the
time if I had wanted to be accepted as a social sci-
approach” (Ellis 2004:38). You also explain later,
peasant community of Zaborow (a village near Kra-
entist.
Carolyn: It’s a study of the relationship between self
“Social scientists often use the term now to refer to
kow in Poland), she uses categories such as “deep
and other and all of its dimensions.
stories that feature the self or that include the re-
understanding,” “being with them,” not “among
Marcin: Umm. The question is why have autoeth-
searcher as a character. Literary and cultural critics
them,” “honest encounters,” and “cordial communi-
nography and other autobiographical discourses
applied the term to autobiographies that self-con-
cation.” Zawistowicz-Adamska starts with survey-
proliferated today?
sciously explore the interplay of the introspective,
ing people, but ends with—to put it concisely—act-
personally engaged self with cultural descriptions
ing for them. The method developed by her is based
Carolyn: It is interesting that autoethnography is
mediated through language, history, and ethno-
on a conviction that people are valuable subjects for
proliferating all over the world, really. I can talk
Marcin: Why don’t we expand it a litle? I think
graphic explanation. For example, Lionnet and
themselves. Moreover, for her, an ethnographer-an-
more knowledgeably about what’s happening in
that analytically it might be useful to make a dis-
Deck described Zora Neil Hurston’s memoirs as
thropologist must be seen not as a pure scientist
the U.S., but autoethnography’s popularity is big-
tinction between an idea of autoethnography and
autoethnography. In these autoethnographies, the
excluded from the world, but rather a “sensitive”
ger than the U.S. Maybe the U.S. leads the way, but
the term autoethnography. What I mean here is con-
traditional historical frame and speciic dates and
persona. Despite the fact that an ethnographer-an-
this growth is happening in other countries, such as
nected with my conviction that we had started to
events usually expected in autobiographies are
thropologist is “vulnerable” in many diferent ways,
Poland, and in many diferent disciplines, and has
practice autoethnography long before we called it
minimized. Instead, authors, such as Hurston, at-
she or he becomes responsible for herself/himself,
been for a long time. It has exploded recently and
autoethnography. This kind of conviction is, again,
tempt to demonstrate the lived experience and hu-
too. Taking this kind of responsibility resembles
why has that happened? I feel like a paradigm shift
implicitly present in The Ethnographic I. You show
manity of themselves and their people to outside
searching for ethos. What is really interesting is that
began back in the 1980s with the crisis of represen-
there that the term autoethnography is now quite
audiences” (Ellis 2004:38).
Zawistowicz-Adamska is today called an “autoeth-
tation associated partly with the cultural anthropol-
nographer”! (cf. Kaniowska 2011).
ogists and the changing composition of those who
Autoethnography as Method
Marcin: That’s a very short deinition...
Carolyn: Yes, it is.
clear as to its semantic content, but that it has hap-
became ethnographers—with more women, work-
pened only recently. For instance, when one of your
You also mention the names of thinkers such as
students, Hector, asks you, “Were you the irst to
Vincent Crapanzano, Edward Sapir, Ruth Benedict,
These examples reveal “scientiic scotomas,” as Oli-
ing class, ethnic, and racial groups, gay and lesbian,
use the term autoethnography?”, you give him the
placing them in the context of blurring the bound-
ver Sacks (1995) would put it, kinds of “black holes”
and third world scholars taking the stage. That laid
following answer: “Oh, no ... It has been in circula-
aries between literature and social sciences. I sup-
appearing in a number of disciplinary discourses
the groundwork for this movement because I really
tion for at least two decades. Anthropologist Karl
pose those cases and many more similar to them
across the social and human sciences; they show
do think of it as a movement.
are instrumental in conirming that the very idea of
contingences and ambiguities of knowledge con-
autoethnography had been vivid a long time before
struction, its coincidental nature. In this context, the
Marcin: But, we cannot forget that the genre of auto-
the term “autoethnography” was coined.
problem of how to detect and characterize the back-
biography is even much older! I’m sure we couldn’t
See: Ellis and Rawicki (2013) for a discussion on the complexities in collaborative witnessing, and Ellis and Pati (in press)
for more ethical considerations in following this approach.
4
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Marcin Kafar & Carolyn Ellis
really understand the signiicance of autobiograph-
and its relationship to culture. It is an autobiographi-
Marcin: Could you please reconstruct the process of
ical relection present in science nowadays if we
cal genre of writing and research that displays multi-
geting to this level of autoethnographic awareness?
didn’t look back at the whole cultural background
ple layers of consciousness” (Ellis 2004:37).
Marcin: It sounds very mysterious.
Carolyn: Yes, it does.
Carolyn: A great deal of work came prior to this dei-
surrounding it.
These are your older deinitions, but I found one
nition, and this deinition evolved from that. For ex-
Marcin: So, is autoethnography, for you personally,
Carolyn: I know. There was a shift in the late 17th
more, the one you created together with Art [Boch-
ample, in Final Negotiations (Ellis 1995), I focused a lot
a way of discovering what was “covered” before in
century in Europe with the Enlightenment from
ner] and Tony Adams: “Autoethnography is an
on the personal aspects because to me then that is
a metaphysical sense?
an emphasis on religion to one on science. There is
approach to research and writing that seeks to de-
what had been so sorely neglected by social scientists.
still an emphasis on science, and those who see so-
scribe and systematically analyze (graphy) personal
I wanted to argue for the importance of the personal
Carolyn: Yes, there is the mystery and spirituality
cial science as a science still have a lot of control.
experience (auto) in order to understand cultural ex-
and emotional. I resist analyzing only the social and
contained in autoethnography. But then, there also
But, perhaps interest in autoethnography is part of
perience (ethno) ... This approach challenges canoni-
cultural aspects. With this deinition, I started to ar-
is the connection to science in the methodological
a larger shift now away from science as the end all
cal ways of doing research and representing others,
gue more forcefully for recognizing all the important
and analytic process. We have procedures, and we
answer towards a renewed awakening to the impor-
and treats research as a political, socially-just, and
dimensions of autoethnography and all the diferent
try to be systematic, and tell a truth that might be
tance of humanity, emotionality, spirituality, and
socially-conscious act ... A researcher uses tenets
aspects you had to include to write a good one. I had
valuable and speak to others. The two come togeth-
soul in our understanding of human life, one which
of autobiography and ethnography to do and write au-
seen that some folks could do the “inward,” but not
er in a really nice mix. So, I’m not just depending on
has to do with people, not numbers...
toethnography. Thus, as a method, autoethnogra-
the “outward” (and vice versa), and that helped me see
faith in God, but I’m not saying there is no faith in
phy is both process and product” (Ellis, Adams, and
how important it was to look outward, as well as in-
God either.
Bochner 2011; italics in the original).
ward, which, of course, I was doing all along.
Marcin: That’s right. Carolyn, you have deined au-
Marcin: I see, it’s more like you believe in believing...
toethnography as “study of the relationship between
self and other and all of its dimensions,” including
In all those deinitions, we have many elements
Marcin: Carolyn, you wrote somewhere a phrase
what you just mentioned. But, it’s not the only dei-
that work together, such as “ethnography,” “cul-
like: “Autoethnography chose me rather than I chose
Carolyn: Yeah, because if it works for anyone, then
nition you proposed. I also came across one in which
ture,” “self,” “vulnerable self,” “interpretation,” “re-
autoethnography.” What does it mean?
he or she should believe in it. If one can make it
you describe the core of autoethnography through
search,” “systematic analysis,” and “alternative way
what autoethnographers do. You say, “First they look
of doing research,” as well as “autoethnography as
Carolyn: I was trying to convey the sense that au-
through an ethnographic wide angle lens, focusing
an act of engagement.” If you had a chance to choose
toethnography was a calling. It was an extreme
outward on social and cultural aspects of their per-
just one of those deinitions, which one would it be?
statement indicating almost something supernatural going on. I said it to show my commitment to
sonal experience; then, they look inward, exposing
a vulnerable self that is moved by and may move
Carolyn: That irst deinition I still think is fantastic,
through, refract, and resist cultural interpretation.
the one with the “wide angle lens...”
Marcin: In what way?
Marcin: If one can make it worse...
Carolyn: Make it work!
this approach and how important I think it is.
Marcin: Make it worse—I’m joking now, of course!
Marcin: Wasn’t it all about having a kind of extraor-
As they zoom backward and forward, inward and
outward, distinctions between the personal and cul-
work, yeah, why not...
[laughter]
dinary experience?
Carolyn: I get it, inally! I thought there was a mis-
tural become blurred, sometimes beyond distinct
recognition” (Ellis 2004:37–38). Then you write, “au-
Carolyn: In the way it opens up what autoethnog-
Carolyn: Right, I had some extraordinary experi-
toethnography refers to the process, as well as what
raphy is and does in that it looks inward, outward,
ences and I wanted to igure it out the best I could.
is produced from the process” (Ellis 2004:32), or “Au-
backward, and forward, and it shows the connec-
Autoethnography ofered me a way to do that. It did
Marcin: Oh, no, I just wanted us to have a short
toethnography refers to writing about the personal
tion of the personal, social, and cultural.
feel like a kind of spirituality, or faith.
break from all those tough topics.
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Marcin Kafar & Carolyn Ellis
Back to Story as a Destination
when I think about the role it plays in creating social
derstanding took place in my body and emotion
Marcin: In certain circumstances...
theory as it is understood by Art [Bochner]. Art says,
that I don’t think I have had before. So, that’s what it
Marcin: Ok, I think it’s a good time now to talk about
“There is nothing as theoretical as a good story” (Boch-
Carolyn: Yes. For example, someone recently read
means to get into somebody’s story—as limited as it
autoethnography and story, and about the relationship
ner 1997:435). Could you please develop this idea?
my The Procrastinating Autoethnographer (Ellis 2012)
might be, it’s the best we have.
between them. Carolyn, most of us, autoethnographers,
and said, “I read this piece and gave it to my hus-
are people who believe in the power of story and very
Carolyn: Well, you know, story is a kind of theory
band who said, ‘Carolyn Ellis lives in your head’ be-
Marcin: Yes, but the problem for me is that language
often we’re willing to equate autoethnography with sto-
(and theory is a kind of story). As you write, you try
cause it was so much like my experience.” I love that
is not a perfect means of geting in touch with some-
ry. For instance, you argue that “stories should be both
to igure out what is happening, how, and why, and
response because it means my piece moved them to
one else. There is always something beyond the
a subject and a method of social science research.” The
you contribute to theory.
enter my experience, as well as their own. I described
words, and that is why I’m not quite sure if story
my experience in a way that it was generalizable in
should be a inal destination for us.
basic question for me is the following: Why are stories
so important both to autoethnography as a method and
Marcin: What kind of theory?
to autoethnographers as researchers and persons?
my sense of the word, generalizable in that it touched
something in them. That kind of touching, that con-
Carolyn: What is the inal destination then?
Carolyn: All kinds of theory, depending on the proj-
nection that comes from this kind of storytelling and
Carolyn: Because of evocation. Part of the way you can
ect—psychological theories about the self; communi-
story hearing is the most important to me.
understand through autoethnography is because it
cation and sociological theories about identities, rela-
evokes you to tell your stories, to feel, to respond. How do
tionships, and families; theories about ethnicity, race,
Marcin: Umm, but do you think it is possible to
you evoke people to enter experience? You do it through
and gender. But also, you contribute to understand-
touch the dimension, as it were, of real experience
Carolyn: Umm, that may be right at times. I don’t
story, so that’s to me one of the main reasons story be-
ing the speciic and particular, the everyday, the lived
via story? There is always a gap between pure ex-
know what happened when I started telling that sto-
comes important to autoethnography; then it’s also im-
experience, other important ways of understanding
perience and the story we tell about it. You probably
ry to you about Jerry. I started feeling emotion and
portant because of sensory kinds of things—smelling,
human existence and the world we live in.
cannot overcome this obstacle.
you started feeling emotion, too; that wasn’t just from
Marcin: I don’t know, but maybe we sometimes
overestimate the weight of stories in our lives.
the story—that was from something that happened
seeing, hearing, feeling, you do it through stories...
Marcin: Ok, Carolyn, autoethnographers not only
Carolyn: Of course that is true, but I think we can
between the two of us at that moment. Some feeling,
Marcin: What about story as the simplest way of
write stories but they also think with them, think about
get close to experience, and that is what we want to
compassion, sense of the importance of what had
building bridges among people, geting into relation
them, feel with them, and so on. What kind of relation
try to do. Remember when I told you the story of Jer-
happened today between you, me, and Jerry, as we
through stories?
between you and story is the most important to you?
ry Rawicki and how important I thought his inter-
accompanied him on his memory trip through War-
action with you was. I thought that because he has
saw. There wasn’t much story there really. If someone
had heard us talking, we didn’t say that much.
Carolyn: Yeah, that is how we as human beings
Carolyn: Well, what’s important to me is that I can
felt so negative towards the people in Poland given
communicate, it’s an obvious one...
live in other people’s stories, and what is equally im-
what had happened to him during the Holocaust.
portant to me is that other people live in my stories.
As I told you how Jerry perceived being treated by
Marcin: We weren’t in story in the strict sense of
those in Poland, his home land, I so empathized
the term; we were more in action and, of course, the
with Jerry that I came close to taking on Jerry’s feel-
words appeared there, but not only words.
Marcin: It’s obvious for you, but...
Marcin: In terms of...
ings as my own. Now I cannot know what it was
Carolyn: It’s important because that’s how we as huCarolyn: In terms of feeling a resonance with the
like to be Jerry during the Holocaust; Jerry cannot
Carolyn: Umm, there was connection, compassion,
story, feeling that they’ve been there, they could be
even know what it was like to be Jerry during the
feeling, empathy. But, I might agree with you that
Marcin: So, again, we’re coming back to a human be-
there, or they understand someone else being there
Holocaust. I cannot know what his experience was,
sometimes we overemphasize the power of story to
ing. There is something less obvious for me about story
even if they couldn’t...
but in that moment of empathy some kind of un-
make our point about its importance. But, as well, the
man beings relate to each other.
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story’s the medium for these other kinds of things to
Marcin: My next question is a more technical one:
Carolyn: It is. I also know that some readers, espe-
Carolyn: No, it does not, but it helps explain some things.
happen.
What do you want to achieve by distributing a story
cially people who know and care for me, also wor-
I do think the story borders on pornography in that the
as you are working on it?
ry about me. So, if I’m really vulnerable in my sto-
graphic scenes are so powerful. That might be good or
ries, they worry, and I don’t want to be too worried
bad—good in that it makes us face the details of what
about, just worried about enough.
happened; bad in that atention goes towards the titil-
Marcin: Carolyn, for whom do you usually write story? Do you write it more for yourself or for the other?
Carolyn: Conversations I have with readers usually
help me to go deeper into the story.
Carolyn: It’s hard to know because I have both au-
lating details and away from the abuse that is going on.
Marcin: What just came to my mind was Carol Ram-
diences in mind. I usually am not stimulated to
Marcin: Does it mean that the story is not only your
bo Ronai’s piece about child abuse (cf. 1995). Person-
start writing unless I’m writing for me, but I follow
story but it is more a shared story?
ally, this story was too powerful.
through often because I think it’s a story for oth-
Marcin: What she did is emotional pornography!
Carolyn: It’s emotional pornography, but… Look,
ers, as well. So, for example, with the procrastinat-
Carolyn: Right, yes (!). And with conversation, not only
Carolyn: The irst time I read this piece I threw it
I might share some of your concerns about this piece,
ing autoethnographer piece (cf. Ellis 2012), I began
can I go deeper but I start to see and analyze the rela-
on the loor and stamped on it because I was very
but discussing this would take more time than we have.
by thinking, “I need to know how to write myself
tional and social context of the story. Through conver-
close to Carol at that time. But, I appreciate power-
through this procrastination and staring at the blank
sation, I start to see lots of things going on that I might
ful stories like this one, even when they make me
Marcin: Ok, so let’s end with my pushing you a bit
screen, and understand it so I can do beter with it.
not have seen by myself. Take, for example, the story
squirm—especially when they make me squirm.
on a question I’ve already asked you: Is the story
And I think others will identify with it and it might
about my hip arthritis (cf. Ellis 2014). Some folks read it
help them think about their procrastination, as well.”
and mentioned how I coped through my relationships,
Marcin: So, again, we’re going back to the ethics of
That sense that the story will resonate with others
for example, the various conversations that I had with
writing stories—a storyteller writes a story, he/she
Carolyn: It’s the best we have, and so far you haven’t
helps me follow through when it might not be easy to
others about my condition. Once they said that, it was
can “throw up,” you know, what is in the gut. Then
convinced me that something else is more important. Of
continue if it feels like it might just be something I’m
obvious. I then went back to the story and added a rela-
the story stays with us, it resonates in us, and some-
course, there also can be performance, art, song, dance,
writing for myself. I have to ind the other.
tional focus to my emphasis on aging and chronic pain.
times it is not easy to cope with the content of it.
and so on. But, you and I are into the writen word, so
That is why, in my opinion, writing a story like the
I’d say that for us a story is usually the inal product.
Marcin: So you anticipate that a certain story will be
Marcin: That makes sense. Do you think about the
writen for certain people?
potential consequences of the power of your story
when you share it with other people?
a inal product of autoethnography?
one by Ronai’s is extremely hazardous.
Marcin: Ok. Carolyn, I think this is a nice conclusion of our conversation. Thank you for your time,
Carolyn: Yes, it is.
your atention, and, of course, for coming to Poland!
Carolyn: Yes, I do to some extent. Who are these
folks? Often I write for academics who I think will
Carolyn: I don’t want my stories to depress people. I al-
take the story to other people, especially students.
ways try to end in some hopeful way, but not in such
And sometimes I have in mind speciic people, as
a way that readers think, “and she lived happily ever
Carolyn: I was going to respond that maybe
this. Nobody has ever asked me these kinds of ques-
well, such as those who sufer with stigmas, who
after,” or believe that they will, as well. I want to con-
I would prefer Carol’s story to be less risky, but
tions about my work.
have had a loved one die, or who have taken care
front life’s problems, but I’m constantly thinking about
then I thought “no” because she told us something
of their mothers. My writing on the Holocaust has
how much human tragedy people can take in, and how
about the human condition that I think we need to
Marcin: Thank you, I hope this means we’ll contin-
more speciically taken into account the people I’m
much is good for them to have to face. Also, I want to
be aware of.
ue the conversation.
writing about, such as survivors themselves and
make sure that as many folks as possible keep reading.
Marcin: It is an explanation, but it doesn’t explain
Carolyn: I’m sure, we shall. And we’ll keep sharing
everything.
stories.
their families, though I know some of what I’m writing will not be of interest to them.
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Marcin: It’s unpredictable and risky...
Marcin: So how to cope with it?
Carolyn: My pleasure, Marcin. I really appreciate
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Cytowanie
Kafar Marcin, Ellis Carolyn (2014) Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn
Ellis. „Przegląd Socjologii Jakościowej”, t. 10, nr 3, s. 124–143 [dostęp dzień, miesiąc, rok]. Dostępny w Internecie: ‹www.przegladsocjologiijakosciowej.org›.
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