Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis

Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis Marcin Kafar University of Lodz, Poland Carolyn Ellis University of South Florida, U.S.A. is an Assistant Professor at the Uni- munication (University of South Florida, U.S.A.) where he versity of Lodz (Poland) where he teaches anthropology cooperated with Arthur P. Bochner and Carolyn Ellis. and qualitative research methodology. He is the origina- email address: marcin.kafar1@gmail.com tor of the “Biographical Perspectives” research project, author of In the World of Exiles, Widows, and Orphans: On Carolyn Ellis a Certain Variant of Engaged Anthropology (W świecie wyg- communication at the University of South Florida in Tampa. Her nańców, wdów i sierot. O pewnym wariancie antropologii zaan- most recent books include: The Ethnographic I: A Methodological gażowanej) (2013), and editor of Scientiic Biographies: Between Novel About Autoethnography; Revision: Autoethnographic Relections the “Professional” and “Non-Professional” Dimensions of Hu- on Life and Work; Music Autoethnographies: Making Autoethnogra- manistic Experiences (2013), as well as Scientiic Biographies: phy Sing/Making Music Personal (with Brydie-Leigh Bartlet), and A Transdisciplinary Perspectives (Biograie naukowe. Perspekty- with Tony Adams and Stacy Holman Jones both the Handbook of wa transdyscyplinarna) (2011); he also co-edited two other Autoethnography, as well as Autoethnography: Understanding Quali- books, namely, Autobiography―Biography―Narration: Re- tative Research Series (in press, Oxford University Press). She has search Practice for Biographical Perspectives (2013) and In the published numerous articles and personal stories situated in Face of New Challenges: Dilemmas of Young Academic Faculty emotions and interpretive representations of qualitative research, (W obliczu nowych wyzwań. Dylematy młodej kadry akademick- particularly autoethnography. Her current research focuses on iej) (2010). His permanent scientiic interests include: the- listening to Holocaust testimonies, sharing authority in a collab- ory and methodology of social sciences, narrativism, and orative research process with irst- and second-generation survi- Autoethnography; Storytelling; Personal Narrative; Scientiic Auto/Biographies; Ethos, Carolyn broadly deined medical anthropology. In 2010, he partici- vors, and making documentaries about her work with survivors. Ellis pated in a scientiic internship at the Department of Com- email address: cellis@usf.edu Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis Abstract This conversation takes place in Warsaw. Carolyn Ellis has come to Poland to accompany Jerry Rawicki, a Warsaw Gheto survivor, on his irst trip back to Poland since the Holocaust. There she arranged to meet Marcin Kafar, a scholar in Poland who has spent time with her at the University of South Florida in Tampa, Florida. During this visit, Marcin assists Carolyn with video recording Jerry’s experiences as they visit Holocaust sites, and Jerry remembers and relects on his experience. Afterwards, Marcin converses with Carolyn about autoethnography, storytelling, and the importance of life in the context of searching for ethos by academics. Keywords Marcin Kafar Stories and the Importance of Life in the First Place Marcin: Carolyn, tell me, how you feel about stories? is a distinguished university professor of ready, let’s go back to September 2010. I remember an internship in your department?” The answer you Marcin: You reminded me of a leter I wrote earli- it was a very hot afternoon in Tampa that day. We gave me was as much surprising as intriguing. Do er to you and Art [Bochner], and you said that the had just inished our autoethnography class and you remember what that answer was? leter had made a positive impact on both of you. You also admited that what really convinced you to you asked me if I wanted to visit your local wildlife reserve. Do you remember it? Carolyn: Oh, I love stories! Carolyn: Yes, I do! Marcin: Ok. Then let me start our conversation by Carolyn: I remember some of it. I said that I had continue our relationship was not strictly connected many scholars who wanted to visit us and I almost with science as such but rather stemmed from, to always said “no.” But, I had really appreciated what paraphrase Victor Turner’s term, dramas of life (cf. you wrote to me when asking to come. It had in- Turner 1978). You continued, “A lot of people want trigued me and I saw that we were kindred spirits... to come and work with us, but most of the time reminding you of one particular story. Actually, this Marcin: When I said “yes,” you changed your for- is a story about a situation we both participated in. mal clothes into casual wear, we jumped into your I assume that that situation and the story about it car and headed for Letuce Lake Park, the place Marcin: That is correct. But, I remember something is time consuming and draws our atention away might serve as a sort of passage both to our com- packed with greedy alligators. We were walking else... from our work. Your leter was diferent. It was not mon biographical ground and to a wider context of through treacherous marsh when I suddenly asked a biographically centered view of science. If you’re you, “Carolyn, why did you decide to invite me for 124 ©2014 PSJ Tom X Numer 3 we reject those proposals because having visitors about completing another scientiic project; instead, Carolyn: What else do you remember? it was about life in the irst place.” The words you Przegląd Socjologii Jakościowej • www.przegladsocjologiijakosciowej.org 125 Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis Marcin Kafar & Carolyn Ellis used here are of exceptional importance for me, “it Marcin: You mean the sciences are, at least to some Carolyn: What is more important to me is that we Marcin: So maybe you should look for some alter- was not about completing another scientiic project, extent, complementary? think about the whole person, that we do not have native notions that would be more appropriate for to split our lives, so that you’re one kind of person expressing your ideas than phrases such as “life and work,” or “relections on life and work”? it was about life in the irst place.” Those words lingered in my mind, and I think they might be crucial Carolyn: Yes, they all are diferent approaches to- here and something else there. I would like those for you, too. wards understanding human beings, our life. In two spheres to be integrated. Carolyn: Mm, it probably should be relections on some ways, for me, the individual is the unit I think Carolyn: Yes, they are because they relate to life as most about. The unit of analysis, in sociological Marcin: This is exactly what I meant when I sug- personal and professional life. I resist using “pri- lived. It’s what I always say. What’s most interesting terms. I’m a sociologist so I should be thinking gested that your autoethnographic project is set up vate” because personal life may or may not be pri- to me is what we’re doing right here in this moment, about larger social collectivities, but I tend to focus in the tension between your private and profession- vate—often it is not. being together, interacting with each other, think- on the individual in a social context. That’s where al life. It becomes clear when we skim over your pa- ing, feeling, caring, supporting. Being here now in I feel most at home and where I think I have most to pers. Let’s consider the title of your last book, Re- Marcin: That doesn’t sound as evocative, but cer- this life is the way I know to make meaning out of ofer. I’m a natural social psychologist. vision: Autoethnographic Relections on Life and Work tainly it seems to be reasonable to use these terms (Ellis 2009). for rhetorical purposes. Carolyn: So are you having a problem with the title Carolyn: Exactly! You need a title that can grab peo- itself? ple. What you’ve been saying—that my title displays the life that we have. It’s not meaningful to me to just gather knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Life Informs Work / Work Informs Life I have to feel that whatever I am doing is potentially making life beter. The only way I can make sense Marcin: Carolyn, in works of thinkers, or beter to of that is that I am being caring and loving and giv- say, writers who are “innerly integrated,” we can ing, now, in this moment. Hopefully then together, expect to ind some basic thoughts, a sort of core Marcin: Well, I am not having a problem, but right. It’s rhetorical, it’s snappy, it surprises more collectively in our research, we are being loving and ideas, or at least one trope that is overwhelming. In I think there is a problem out there, and I’m interested traditional people, but at the same time it makes caring and wanting to make life more satisfying for reading your texts, we’re able to detect quite easily in it. them “look at it,” because they think of work sepa- more people. a kind of idée ixe. Would you agree with me that this Marcin: So what about doing science then? an artiicial separation of “life” and “work,” you’re rated from life, meaning “personal life.” Here, they idea is an interplay of what is “private” and what is Carolyn: Let me think about what you are saying. “public,” “professional” experience? This title might convey that I accept the division between life and work. But, what I think I was trying Marcin: When you use the word “work,” is it a synonym of the phrase “doing science”? Carolyn: I have no problem with science. We need Carolyn: Actually, I do not want to separate the to say is that there is this division out in the world science. For instance, science helps us eradicate ill- “professional” from everything else. that people buy into. We assume it’s true and it’s re- nesses and thanks to science we can make some pre- are being joined together. ally not true, and I’m going to show readers how to Carolyn: It does not necessarily mean “doing sci- dictions that help to make life beter. But, I do not Marcin: I see, but would you be willing to declare bring these two aspects together. But, you’re right ence.” I think we live as though work is something think that science is the only story we have; it’s one that this is the most important idea you’re working that in some ways this title sustains the separation. that we go separately to do and it has its boundaries layer of story... on? In interpretive work, you have to speak a language of time and space—though now in our mobile so- that other people/scholars understand. So, I had to ciety, less so in terms of space; and for some folks, Carolyn: I do not know if I want to call it the most say to them, “Here are these two things that tend to such as productive academics, there aren’t speciic important idea... be separated. Now, I want to bring them together in time boundaries either. For autoethnographers, life this work.” I think that got readers’ atention. Schol- and work tend to blend together since their work Marcin: the scientiic one... Carolyn: ...the scientiic one, yes, as in the physical sciences. As well, there are the social sciences—they’re Marcin: What is then more important to you than ars don’t usually talk about “life” as a concept, just is writing about their lives. But, for most, work is important as well. this? speciic aspects of it. something you do from 8.00 to 5.00. You’re either 126 ©2014 PSJ Tom X Numer 3 Przegląd Socjologii Jakościowej • www.przegladsocjologiijakosciowej.org 127 Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis Marcin Kafar & Carolyn Ellis doing “life” or you’re of doing your work. Work is Carolyn: Not with quite the intention that I’m tell- Marcin: Which means that when you plan to start to with and buy into that term. At the International what you have to do to make a living; life is all the ing you now in hindsight. be an autoethnographer, you must be accountable to Congress of Qualitative Inquiry,1 I recently partic- other people... ipated in, I asked my audience, “Would you prefer other stuf that happens. So, there is this artiicial separation that we always have to live with, espe- Marcin: So how did it happen that those phrases cially in the United States. eventually appeared in your book? the term ‘collaborative witnessing’ or ‘intimate inCarolyn: Yes, you deinitely must... terviewing,’ or ‘relational autoethnography’?” Most liked “collaborative witnessing” the best. Now back Marcin: In your The Ethnographic I, you write, “Life Carolyn: To be honest, I came to think all this as Marcin: What you’re saying now reminds me of Dan to “ethnography”; many people connect to and iden- Informs Work” (Ellis 2004:56). What does that I wrote—writing as inquiry (cf. Richardson 1994). Rose’s conviction that “ethnography is a way of life,” tify with that term as a descriptor of an area, and mean? I wrote these thoughts into being. I was thinking (cf. Rose 1990), which means ethnography is some- they were an audience that I wanted to reach and and constructing as I was writing. thing more than “pure science” and consequently, hopefully inluence. ethnographers are not only “pure scientists” but Carolyn: What it means is you never are separated from your work, your research, or your life. You’re Marcin: Was what you’re describing a conscious or always who you are; your personal experiences in- semi-conscious act? also people commited to what they live by. raphy is a “lifestyle,” but is it still a sort of science, Carolyn: Ethnography is a lifestyle based on the form the kind of project you choose, what you write, Marcin: Carolyn, you just said that for you ethnogtoo? Carolyn: Semi-conscious. I started with these no- moral view that goes along with this lifestyle. It is tions, but then I had to igure out how to tell a story a way of treating people, a way of thinking about Carolyn: Why are you so hung up on the word “sci- Marcin: Ok. So what is the diference then between about them and what the story was. Then I had to the world, seeing other peoples’ lives as of value... ence”? life informing work and the meaning hidden in also igure out how to persuade audience to come/ a phrase “our work becomes our life”? This is an- stay with me, diicult because potential audiences Marcin: Yes, but autoethnography is not traditional Marcin: I do not know. Maybe because I’ve been try- other passage in The Ethnographic I? would be very diferent from each other. I had to ind ethnography which was strictly concerned with ex- ing to ind diferent ways of reading your books. the point where I could reach the most people and amining people and writing about them... how you write, who you write to, all of that. Carolyn: I am encouraging people to try to see with reach them deeply. I didn’t want to address people me, though I’m trying to guide them gradually and who totally reject these ideas, but I didn’t want just to Carolyn: ...and using people, and manipulating much about science. I want to just say, “Science is softly. I am saying, “Come with me and see how talk to people who totally bought into it either. them... there, what I do connects to science, but it isn’t ful- Carolyn: I love that! Truly, I resist even thinking so ly contained there. I do stuf over here that is not life informs your work, how life seeps into and becomes your work.” There are diferent stages in this process of pulling people into the idea of “‘life’ and Ethnography/Autoethnography as a Way of Life ‘work’ as the same.” I like the phrases you’ve just Marcin: That is true, and partly because of this, there...” I wonder why you decided to use the term “ethnography” for completing your very humanistic project. Marcin: I know what you mean, but, in general, recalled because they demonstrate the handhold- Marcin: Carolyn, were you sure after your autoeth- ing that took place in The Ethnographic I. Of course, nographic conversion that you had chosen the right Carolyn: Probably, my choice was political. If you They start from the point of doing science and they I didn’t do this on purpose, but if you come with me path to do social science? Wasn’t that step risky? want to be successful, you have to connect to the talk about science. We were talking about using the categories that are already there. You have to con- term “ethnography” and you said it was political... through the book, I’m holding your hand and tak- people doing science need to use clear distinctions. ing you to a place where you will feel and conclude: Carolyn: It was risky because I didn’t know if I had nect to something that people identify with rather “Of course, we study our own lives!” followers or would have followers. I didn’t know than starting with completely new categories. For what would happen if I had followers and then they example, I’ve come up with the term “collaborative had bad experiences that could ruin their lives... witnessing,” and now I have to hope people connect Marcin: You really didn’t do it on purpose? 128 ©2014 PSJ Tom X Numer 3 1 The ICQI is an annual conference, in its tenth year, that is held in Urbana, Illinois and directed by Norman Denzin. The last Congress atracted almost 2000 people from 70 diferent nations. The conference focuses on autoethnography, arts-based qualitative methods, and social justice. Przegląd Socjologii Jakościowej • www.przegladsocjologiijakosciowej.org 129 Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis Marcin Kafar & Carolyn Ellis we become in it, and whether we truly care about it. Carolyn: Well, it feels like a calling. You know, it is Marcin: Right, what about the relevance of social, To think of your work as a calling in the strongest so hard to talk about that, but I really believe in it. practical, cultural, and political factors? Marcin: So, relating to science, or at least to the term sense of the word is to make your work morally in- You have to believe in a calling. It’s sort of like being “science,” is also political. separable from your life” (Bochner 2009:16). Caro- saved or geting religious or whatever, you have to Carolyn: Here is the irony: if you’re self-absorbed, lyn, how would you classify your academic work? Is have a belief in it to make it work... it’s hard—maybe impossible—to be a good autoeth- Carolyn: Yes, you’re right... Carolyn: Yes, it is. Now, I’m going to reverse myself nographer. That’s the irst time I’ve expressed it in it a job, a career, or a calling? and say, “I do think somewhat like a scientist.” And Marcin: Do you believe that what you do has a reli- this way. Part of being a good autoethnographer is gious element in it? having a sense of the other, the larger, the social, the what I do also overlaps with what creative writers Carolyn: My academic work is a calling. The writ- do, though we have a diferent orientation. I do hu- ing, the autoethnography, the storytelling, the manities from the point of view of a scientist. In that teaching—all are part of a calling. Unfortunately, Carolyn: Well, no, well, it may... I believe that the connection between the humanities and social sci- the role of chairing is more of a job or career... practice of autoethnography has added to my life, Marcin: Very often autoethnography is viewed only helped me understand things I didn’t understand as a method, and probably that’s a mistake. ence there is a space that I really like to operate in. So, I don’t reject science. In fact, most of my audience Marcin: So, you have to be split... is composed of people who consider themselves sci- collective good. and I see it doing that for other people. There is some peace that can come out of it, from the search- Carolyn: Yes, it is. I want to expand autoethnogra- entists. I want to say to them, “You don’t have to just Carolyn: I do now, which is why I don’t particularly like ing; some understanding, some clues about how to phy to include all we’ve been talking about. But, the be in that space. There is a whole other space here being a department chair. I’m trying to turn the chair- live a good life, so that’s religious sounding. other part of my identifying as an autoethnographer that we can operate in and bring the best of science, ing into a calling, but I haven’t been able to do that yet. social science, too, to connect to humanities.” I don’t is that autoethnography is a political act for me. It’s Marcin: Art [Bochner] also encourages us to truly the only label under which I think I have enough think of science and humanities so much as binary Marcin: Umm, a calling is an ideal, which means it’s care about our work. What do you truly care about authority or legitimacy to make anything happen, but as a continuum. I know there is a large part of always one step ahead of you... when you connect yourself to your work, Carolyn? to contribute to social change. So, it’s really important to me that, for instance, you would call yourself the world that thinks of science and humanities as binary so they get all upset with what I’m doing be- Carolyn: That’s a good way to say it. Yes, it is... cause it doesn’t it into their categories. Autoethnography as a Calling Carolyn: What do I care about? I care that I feel that an autoethnographer because that increases its le- I’m doing the best I can. By that I mean that other gitimacy. Marcin: ...and that is why you can only aspire to people get considered along with myself, that my achieve it. work is not just a selish act, and that I am doing the best I am able to do under these particular circum- Marcin: If you don’t mind, I would like to return to Carolyn: Yes, you cannot really achieve it because if the problem of terms. One of your favorite scholars, you reach it, then it’s not calling you anymore. Art Bochner, writes, “We need to think seriously about the terms by which we conceive of our aca- Marcin: So, it’s deinitely a hard task to consciously act demic work—as a job, a career, or a calling—because as someone chosen, or as someone who has been called. these terms largely deine what we come to believe, how we behave, and how we understand and en- Carolyn: I agree. act our connections to others in our community of Losing Ourselves / Connecting to Others in Our Work stances. Marcin: I would like to ask you to make some comMarcin: Do you think there is any set of beliefs that ments about a fragment of your piece titled Jumping are or should be shared by all autoethnographers? On and Of the Runaway Train of Success: Stress and Commited Intensity in an Academic Life (2011). There is Carolyn: Yes, compassion and empathy—valuing a dialogue in this text that is based on your conver- them and enacting them. We have to have both. sation with Art [Bochner]. When Art reminds you Caring about love and being able to love. All of that the work you do is a “calling” and it cannot be practice. Each of these terms emplots a diferent sto- Marcin: So, Carolyn, to what extent is what you’re those feminine characteristics, they have to be separated from the rest of your life, you quite un- ry of how we understand our work, how invested doing academically a calling? there. expectedly reply, “I do feel called to this work―to 130 ©2014 PSJ Tom X Numer 3 Przegląd Socjologii Jakościowej • www.przegladsocjologiijakosciowej.org 131 Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis Marcin Kafar & Carolyn Ellis autoethnography, ethnography, and now my work Carolyn: Yes, I think that even for relationship there fruit. Ethos means environment, homestead, these stories and conversations with theoretical per- with survivors ... but sometimes I get so lost in the are aspects that might be able to be developed that which is to say—a ield of life. Any living being, spectives and/or a focus on some phenomenon they details, I lose touch with that feeling ... sometimes are not. That’s why Art and I like to go to the moun- including human beings, can develop only when want to understand.3 Collaborative witnessing is I just want to make sure that I don’t lose me and tains and hike. We become somewhat diferent peo- that being has its own ethos—a place to be able to connected with empathy, compassion, and caring, become one-dimensional in feeling that work is all ple there. We are less obsessed about our work and live a fruitful life. Can you say, Carolyn, that you and with the hope that this work will be helpful to that maters. Or that we don’t lose ‘us’ in our dedica- we develop diferent aspects of ourselves, which already have found your ethos? other people, not just to us—researchers. Does that tion to our life as professors” (Ellis 2011:169). makes us more interesting to each other. make sense? Carolyn: I think probably so. But, I also think you Carolyn: Umm, that’s the danger—that our work Marcin: So being in the mountains is an investment want to never stop searching, discovering, and Marcin: Yes, it does, but it’s very hard to predict how takes us over. These ideas are jumbled and I don’t in yourselves and your relationship, isn’t it? growing, similar to responding to a “calling.” For our work afects other people’s lives. example, when I started work with Holocaust sur- reach a conclusion in this piece. On the one hand, all I really have is my personal experience at this Carolyn: Yes, very much so. But, there are activities vivors, a new world opened up to me. It became im- Carolyn: Yes, it is. So I feel that all I can do is just moment, which for Art and me is having work and we don’t get to do and identities we don’t get to enact portant to me to tell survivors’ stories in a process keep working and trying to write prose that is help- life be the same. This life has been unbelievably re- in the mountains that we do get to fulill in Tampa. of “collaborative witnessing” or “relational autoeth- ful. For example, coming here; I felt that this was warding for us, our relationship, growth, and devel- It makes life fuller to spend time in both places, and nography” that emphasizes “working with” and such a big event in Jerry’s life, how could I not be opment. It has given us a sense of being in the world get a bit out of the obsessive work head we get into contributing to the life of participants, family mem- here? I also felt that it was a big step forward in col- and doing something important, helping others. in Tampa where we’re teaching, mentoring, and en- bers, and readers.2 In some way, this work circles laborative witnessing—to accompany Jerry on such On the other hand, because the work has taken us gaged in service activities in addition to our research. back to “science” in terms of working with other an important trip rather than to just participate in people to tell their stories, but doing it from an au- interviews. During this time, I had important deci- over, we have made decisions that may not be ones I would have made if that had not been the case, Marcin: Now you’re telling me a very important toethnographic perspective. So, now I can connect sions to make that helped me understand some of for example, not have children, in part, because they fact: that not only are thoughts and feelings crucial autoethnography directly to a focus on telling the the complexities in compassionate witnessing. For would have taken us from our work. for you but also crucial is a material world—a real stories of others, and that has become very import- example, do I videotape Jerry when he returns to space like Tampa and your mountains. ant to me. Though a number of scholars advocate Treblinka, where his family was killed? I think not, collaborative research, they are not doing collabo- because I do not want to risk making this event into Carolyn: Yes, the two spaces have diferent demands rative witnessing. They intersect autoethnographies a spectacle and because my being with him is more and rewards, but are both important. primarily of their researcher selves and combine important than my capturing and recording what Marcin: Yes, but you never know whether the decision you make is good or not. happens. That has to be true. So, this trip is really Carolyn: True, but you make decisions the best you can. If I were now on my death bed and somebody Marcin: Carolyn, I sometimes use in my works a no- says, “If you could do your life over, would you do tion of “ethos” (cf., e.g., Kafar 2011; 2013). Do you it diferently?”, I would say “no.” This life has been know what “ethos” originally meant? really, really rewarding, but I do want to be aware that if you put all your focus on work, there are oth- Carolyn: No, I don’t, but I know this concept is very er things that might be missed. important to you. Marcin: Umm, I think “rewarding” is a key word Marcin: It’s a Greek word meaning, among other here. things, a place where plants can grow and bear 132 ©2014 PSJ Tom X Numer 3 2 Collaborative witnessing is a form of relational autoethnography that allows researchers to focus on and evocatively tell the lives of others in shared storytelling and conversation. Carolyn has used this approach in her interviews with Holocaust survivors, in particular with Jerry Rawicki, a Warsaw Gheto survivor, with whom she has coauthored four articles and stories (see: Rawicki and Ellis 2011; Ellis and Rawicki 2013; 2014 (in press)). This approach its with the deinition of autoethnography as about and for others, as well as about and for a researcher. It is a relational practice that asks that we enter the experience of the other as much as we think about the experience of the self and it requires us to take others’ roles as fully as we can, and to consider why, given their histories and locations, as well as their relexive processes, they act in the world and respond the way they do. a test of the approach, and then it’s also a working For example, in duoethnography (cf. Norris, Sawyer, and Lund 2012), multiple researchers juxtapose their own autoethnographic accounts about the research question and integrate their separate indings to provide multiple perspectives on a social phenomenon. In collaborative writing (see: Diversi and Moreria 2009; Gale et al. 2012), multiple writers, who may not be in the same place or writing at the same time, co-produce an autoethnographic story. In collaborative autoethnography (cf. Chang, Ngunjiri, and Hernandez 2013), several researchers write individual autoethnographies and simultaneously contribute their individual indings for collective analysis. 3 Przegląd Socjologii Jakościowej • www.przegladsocjologiijakosciowej.org 133 Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis Marcin Kafar & Carolyn Ellis out of the approach and the complexity in the ap- Heider used autoethnography in 1975 to refer to the Carolyn: Umm, do you have any particular scholars ground of what is currently called autoethnography proach.4 Dani’s own account of what people do, but David in mind when you say that? starts to be clear. Maybe you remember, Carolyn, Hayano usually is credited as the originator of the that during one of your autoethnography classes at term. Hayano limited the meaning to cultural-lev- Marcin: Yes, I do, and, unfortunately, some of them the University of South Florida, I asked you whether el studies by anthropologists of their ‘own people,’ have been forgoten for years. For example, an old you could imagine yourself being an autoethnogra- Marcin: Carolyn, now I would like us to talk about in which the researcher is a full insider by virtue Polish ethnographer, Kazimiera Zawistowicz-Ad- pher 30 or 40 years ago? autoethnography as a method. First, let’s try to of being ‘native,’ acquiring an intimate familiarity amska, who, in her revelatory book—Społeczność compose the historical background of doing au- with the group, or achieving full membership in wiejska [A Peasant Community] (1948), conirms her Carolyn: Yes, I do remember. I probably wouldn’t toethnography. How would you deine autoeth- the group being studied. His study of professional passage from traditional ethnography into engaged have been able to write my evocative stories at that nography? poker players, of which he is one, exempliies this anthropology. In the process of researching the time if I had wanted to be accepted as a social sci- approach” (Ellis 2004:38). You also explain later, peasant community of Zaborow (a village near Kra- entist. Carolyn: It’s a study of the relationship between self “Social scientists often use the term now to refer to kow in Poland), she uses categories such as “deep and other and all of its dimensions. stories that feature the self or that include the re- understanding,” “being with them,” not “among Marcin: Umm. The question is why have autoeth- searcher as a character. Literary and cultural critics them,” “honest encounters,” and “cordial communi- nography and other autobiographical discourses applied the term to autobiographies that self-con- cation.” Zawistowicz-Adamska starts with survey- proliferated today? sciously explore the interplay of the introspective, ing people, but ends with—to put it concisely—act- personally engaged self with cultural descriptions ing for them. The method developed by her is based Carolyn: It is interesting that autoethnography is mediated through language, history, and ethno- on a conviction that people are valuable subjects for proliferating all over the world, really. I can talk Marcin: Why don’t we expand it a litle? I think graphic explanation. For example, Lionnet and themselves. Moreover, for her, an ethnographer-an- more knowledgeably about what’s happening in that analytically it might be useful to make a dis- Deck described Zora Neil Hurston’s memoirs as thropologist must be seen not as a pure scientist the U.S., but autoethnography’s popularity is big- tinction between an idea of autoethnography and autoethnography. In these autoethnographies, the excluded from the world, but rather a “sensitive” ger than the U.S. Maybe the U.S. leads the way, but the term autoethnography. What I mean here is con- traditional historical frame and speciic dates and persona. Despite the fact that an ethnographer-an- this growth is happening in other countries, such as nected with my conviction that we had started to events usually expected in autobiographies are thropologist is “vulnerable” in many diferent ways, Poland, and in many diferent disciplines, and has practice autoethnography long before we called it minimized. Instead, authors, such as Hurston, at- she or he becomes responsible for herself/himself, been for a long time. It has exploded recently and autoethnography. This kind of conviction is, again, tempt to demonstrate the lived experience and hu- too. Taking this kind of responsibility resembles why has that happened? I feel like a paradigm shift implicitly present in The Ethnographic I. You show manity of themselves and their people to outside searching for ethos. What is really interesting is that began back in the 1980s with the crisis of represen- there that the term autoethnography is now quite audiences” (Ellis 2004:38). Zawistowicz-Adamska is today called an “autoeth- tation associated partly with the cultural anthropol- nographer”! (cf. Kaniowska 2011). ogists and the changing composition of those who Autoethnography as Method Marcin: That’s a very short deinition... Carolyn: Yes, it is. clear as to its semantic content, but that it has hap- became ethnographers—with more women, work- pened only recently. For instance, when one of your You also mention the names of thinkers such as students, Hector, asks you, “Were you the irst to Vincent Crapanzano, Edward Sapir, Ruth Benedict, These examples reveal “scientiic scotomas,” as Oli- ing class, ethnic, and racial groups, gay and lesbian, use the term autoethnography?”, you give him the placing them in the context of blurring the bound- ver Sacks (1995) would put it, kinds of “black holes” and third world scholars taking the stage. That laid following answer: “Oh, no ... It has been in circula- aries between literature and social sciences. I sup- appearing in a number of disciplinary discourses the groundwork for this movement because I really tion for at least two decades. Anthropologist Karl pose those cases and many more similar to them across the social and human sciences; they show do think of it as a movement. are instrumental in conirming that the very idea of contingences and ambiguities of knowledge con- autoethnography had been vivid a long time before struction, its coincidental nature. In this context, the Marcin: But, we cannot forget that the genre of auto- the term “autoethnography” was coined. problem of how to detect and characterize the back- biography is even much older! I’m sure we couldn’t See: Ellis and Rawicki (2013) for a discussion on the complexities in collaborative witnessing, and Ellis and Pati (in press) for more ethical considerations in following this approach. 4 134 ©2014 PSJ Tom X Numer 3 Przegląd Socjologii Jakościowej • www.przegladsocjologiijakosciowej.org 135 Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis Marcin Kafar & Carolyn Ellis really understand the signiicance of autobiograph- and its relationship to culture. It is an autobiographi- Marcin: Could you please reconstruct the process of ical relection present in science nowadays if we cal genre of writing and research that displays multi- geting to this level of autoethnographic awareness? didn’t look back at the whole cultural background ple layers of consciousness” (Ellis 2004:37). Marcin: It sounds very mysterious. Carolyn: Yes, it does. Carolyn: A great deal of work came prior to this dei- surrounding it. These are your older deinitions, but I found one nition, and this deinition evolved from that. For ex- Marcin: So, is autoethnography, for you personally, Carolyn: I know. There was a shift in the late 17th more, the one you created together with Art [Boch- ample, in Final Negotiations (Ellis 1995), I focused a lot a way of discovering what was “covered” before in century in Europe with the Enlightenment from ner] and Tony Adams: “Autoethnography is an on the personal aspects because to me then that is a metaphysical sense? an emphasis on religion to one on science. There is approach to research and writing that seeks to de- what had been so sorely neglected by social scientists. still an emphasis on science, and those who see so- scribe and systematically analyze (graphy) personal I wanted to argue for the importance of the personal Carolyn: Yes, there is the mystery and spirituality cial science as a science still have a lot of control. experience (auto) in order to understand cultural ex- and emotional. I resist analyzing only the social and contained in autoethnography. But then, there also But, perhaps interest in autoethnography is part of perience (ethno) ... This approach challenges canoni- cultural aspects. With this deinition, I started to ar- is the connection to science in the methodological a larger shift now away from science as the end all cal ways of doing research and representing others, gue more forcefully for recognizing all the important and analytic process. We have procedures, and we answer towards a renewed awakening to the impor- and treats research as a political, socially-just, and dimensions of autoethnography and all the diferent try to be systematic, and tell a truth that might be tance of humanity, emotionality, spirituality, and socially-conscious act ... A researcher uses tenets aspects you had to include to write a good one. I had valuable and speak to others. The two come togeth- soul in our understanding of human life, one which of autobiography and ethnography to do and write au- seen that some folks could do the “inward,” but not er in a really nice mix. So, I’m not just depending on has to do with people, not numbers... toethnography. Thus, as a method, autoethnogra- the “outward” (and vice versa), and that helped me see faith in God, but I’m not saying there is no faith in phy is both process and product” (Ellis, Adams, and how important it was to look outward, as well as in- God either. Bochner 2011; italics in the original). ward, which, of course, I was doing all along. Marcin: That’s right. Carolyn, you have deined au- Marcin: I see, it’s more like you believe in believing... toethnography as “study of the relationship between self and other and all of its dimensions,” including In all those deinitions, we have many elements Marcin: Carolyn, you wrote somewhere a phrase what you just mentioned. But, it’s not the only dei- that work together, such as “ethnography,” “cul- like: “Autoethnography chose me rather than I chose Carolyn: Yeah, because if it works for anyone, then nition you proposed. I also came across one in which ture,” “self,” “vulnerable self,” “interpretation,” “re- autoethnography.” What does it mean? he or she should believe in it. If one can make it you describe the core of autoethnography through search,” “systematic analysis,” and “alternative way what autoethnographers do. You say, “First they look of doing research,” as well as “autoethnography as Carolyn: I was trying to convey the sense that au- through an ethnographic wide angle lens, focusing an act of engagement.” If you had a chance to choose toethnography was a calling. It was an extreme outward on social and cultural aspects of their per- just one of those deinitions, which one would it be? statement indicating almost something supernatural going on. I said it to show my commitment to sonal experience; then, they look inward, exposing a vulnerable self that is moved by and may move Carolyn: That irst deinition I still think is fantastic, through, refract, and resist cultural interpretation. the one with the “wide angle lens...” Marcin: In what way? Marcin: If one can make it worse... Carolyn: Make it work! this approach and how important I think it is. Marcin: Make it worse—I’m joking now, of course! Marcin: Wasn’t it all about having a kind of extraor- As they zoom backward and forward, inward and outward, distinctions between the personal and cul- work, yeah, why not... [laughter] dinary experience? Carolyn: I get it, inally! I thought there was a mis- tural become blurred, sometimes beyond distinct recognition” (Ellis 2004:37–38). Then you write, “au- Carolyn: In the way it opens up what autoethnog- Carolyn: Right, I had some extraordinary experi- toethnography refers to the process, as well as what raphy is and does in that it looks inward, outward, ences and I wanted to igure it out the best I could. is produced from the process” (Ellis 2004:32), or “Au- backward, and forward, and it shows the connec- Autoethnography ofered me a way to do that. It did Marcin: Oh, no, I just wanted us to have a short toethnography refers to writing about the personal tion of the personal, social, and cultural. feel like a kind of spirituality, or faith. break from all those tough topics. 136 ©2014 PSJ Tom X Numer 3 understanding because of my English... [laughter] Przegląd Socjologii Jakościowej • www.przegladsocjologiijakosciowej.org 137 Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis Marcin Kafar & Carolyn Ellis Back to Story as a Destination when I think about the role it plays in creating social derstanding took place in my body and emotion Marcin: In certain circumstances... theory as it is understood by Art [Bochner]. Art says, that I don’t think I have had before. So, that’s what it Marcin: Ok, I think it’s a good time now to talk about “There is nothing as theoretical as a good story” (Boch- Carolyn: Yes. For example, someone recently read means to get into somebody’s story—as limited as it autoethnography and story, and about the relationship ner 1997:435). Could you please develop this idea? my The Procrastinating Autoethnographer (Ellis 2012) might be, it’s the best we have. between them. Carolyn, most of us, autoethnographers, and said, “I read this piece and gave it to my hus- are people who believe in the power of story and very Carolyn: Well, you know, story is a kind of theory band who said, ‘Carolyn Ellis lives in your head’ be- Marcin: Yes, but the problem for me is that language often we’re willing to equate autoethnography with sto- (and theory is a kind of story). As you write, you try cause it was so much like my experience.” I love that is not a perfect means of geting in touch with some- ry. For instance, you argue that “stories should be both to igure out what is happening, how, and why, and response because it means my piece moved them to one else. There is always something beyond the a subject and a method of social science research.” The you contribute to theory. enter my experience, as well as their own. I described words, and that is why I’m not quite sure if story my experience in a way that it was generalizable in should be a inal destination for us. basic question for me is the following: Why are stories so important both to autoethnography as a method and Marcin: What kind of theory? to autoethnographers as researchers and persons? my sense of the word, generalizable in that it touched something in them. That kind of touching, that con- Carolyn: What is the inal destination then? Carolyn: All kinds of theory, depending on the proj- nection that comes from this kind of storytelling and Carolyn: Because of evocation. Part of the way you can ect—psychological theories about the self; communi- story hearing is the most important to me. understand through autoethnography is because it cation and sociological theories about identities, rela- evokes you to tell your stories, to feel, to respond. How do tionships, and families; theories about ethnicity, race, Marcin: Umm, but do you think it is possible to you evoke people to enter experience? You do it through and gender. But also, you contribute to understand- touch the dimension, as it were, of real experience Carolyn: Umm, that may be right at times. I don’t story, so that’s to me one of the main reasons story be- ing the speciic and particular, the everyday, the lived via story? There is always a gap between pure ex- know what happened when I started telling that sto- comes important to autoethnography; then it’s also im- experience, other important ways of understanding perience and the story we tell about it. You probably ry to you about Jerry. I started feeling emotion and portant because of sensory kinds of things—smelling, human existence and the world we live in. cannot overcome this obstacle. you started feeling emotion, too; that wasn’t just from Marcin: I don’t know, but maybe we sometimes overestimate the weight of stories in our lives. the story—that was from something that happened seeing, hearing, feeling, you do it through stories... Marcin: Ok, Carolyn, autoethnographers not only Carolyn: Of course that is true, but I think we can between the two of us at that moment. Some feeling, Marcin: What about story as the simplest way of write stories but they also think with them, think about get close to experience, and that is what we want to compassion, sense of the importance of what had building bridges among people, geting into relation them, feel with them, and so on. What kind of relation try to do. Remember when I told you the story of Jer- happened today between you, me, and Jerry, as we through stories? between you and story is the most important to you? ry Rawicki and how important I thought his inter- accompanied him on his memory trip through War- action with you was. I thought that because he has saw. There wasn’t much story there really. If someone had heard us talking, we didn’t say that much. Carolyn: Yeah, that is how we as human beings Carolyn: Well, what’s important to me is that I can felt so negative towards the people in Poland given communicate, it’s an obvious one... live in other people’s stories, and what is equally im- what had happened to him during the Holocaust. portant to me is that other people live in my stories. As I told you how Jerry perceived being treated by Marcin: We weren’t in story in the strict sense of those in Poland, his home land, I so empathized the term; we were more in action and, of course, the with Jerry that I came close to taking on Jerry’s feel- words appeared there, but not only words. Marcin: It’s obvious for you, but... Marcin: In terms of... ings as my own. Now I cannot know what it was Carolyn: It’s important because that’s how we as huCarolyn: In terms of feeling a resonance with the like to be Jerry during the Holocaust; Jerry cannot Carolyn: Umm, there was connection, compassion, story, feeling that they’ve been there, they could be even know what it was like to be Jerry during the feeling, empathy. But, I might agree with you that Marcin: So, again, we’re coming back to a human be- there, or they understand someone else being there Holocaust. I cannot know what his experience was, sometimes we overemphasize the power of story to ing. There is something less obvious for me about story even if they couldn’t... but in that moment of empathy some kind of un- make our point about its importance. But, as well, the man beings relate to each other. 138 ©2014 PSJ Tom X Numer 3 Przegląd Socjologii Jakościowej • www.przegladsocjologiijakosciowej.org 139 Autoethnography, Storytelling, and Life as Lived: A Conversation Between Marcin Kafar and Carolyn Ellis Marcin Kafar & Carolyn Ellis story’s the medium for these other kinds of things to Marcin: My next question is a more technical one: Carolyn: It is. I also know that some readers, espe- Carolyn: No, it does not, but it helps explain some things. happen. What do you want to achieve by distributing a story cially people who know and care for me, also wor- I do think the story borders on pornography in that the as you are working on it? ry about me. So, if I’m really vulnerable in my sto- graphic scenes are so powerful. That might be good or ries, they worry, and I don’t want to be too worried bad—good in that it makes us face the details of what about, just worried about enough. happened; bad in that atention goes towards the titil- Marcin: Carolyn, for whom do you usually write story? Do you write it more for yourself or for the other? Carolyn: Conversations I have with readers usually help me to go deeper into the story. Carolyn: It’s hard to know because I have both au- lating details and away from the abuse that is going on. Marcin: What just came to my mind was Carol Ram- diences in mind. I usually am not stimulated to Marcin: Does it mean that the story is not only your bo Ronai’s piece about child abuse (cf. 1995). Person- start writing unless I’m writing for me, but I follow story but it is more a shared story? ally, this story was too powerful. through often because I think it’s a story for oth- Marcin: What she did is emotional pornography! Carolyn: It’s emotional pornography, but… Look, ers, as well. So, for example, with the procrastinat- Carolyn: Right, yes (!). And with conversation, not only Carolyn: The irst time I read this piece I threw it I might share some of your concerns about this piece, ing autoethnographer piece (cf. Ellis 2012), I began can I go deeper but I start to see and analyze the rela- on the loor and stamped on it because I was very but discussing this would take more time than we have. by thinking, “I need to know how to write myself tional and social context of the story. Through conver- close to Carol at that time. But, I appreciate power- through this procrastination and staring at the blank sation, I start to see lots of things going on that I might ful stories like this one, even when they make me Marcin: Ok, so let’s end with my pushing you a bit screen, and understand it so I can do beter with it. not have seen by myself. Take, for example, the story squirm—especially when they make me squirm. on a question I’ve already asked you: Is the story And I think others will identify with it and it might about my hip arthritis (cf. Ellis 2014). Some folks read it help them think about their procrastination, as well.” and mentioned how I coped through my relationships, Marcin: So, again, we’re going back to the ethics of That sense that the story will resonate with others for example, the various conversations that I had with writing stories—a storyteller writes a story, he/she Carolyn: It’s the best we have, and so far you haven’t helps me follow through when it might not be easy to others about my condition. Once they said that, it was can “throw up,” you know, what is in the gut. Then convinced me that something else is more important. Of continue if it feels like it might just be something I’m obvious. I then went back to the story and added a rela- the story stays with us, it resonates in us, and some- course, there also can be performance, art, song, dance, writing for myself. I have to ind the other. tional focus to my emphasis on aging and chronic pain. times it is not easy to cope with the content of it. and so on. But, you and I are into the writen word, so That is why, in my opinion, writing a story like the I’d say that for us a story is usually the inal product. Marcin: So you anticipate that a certain story will be Marcin: That makes sense. Do you think about the writen for certain people? potential consequences of the power of your story when you share it with other people? a inal product of autoethnography? one by Ronai’s is extremely hazardous. Marcin: Ok. Carolyn, I think this is a nice conclusion of our conversation. Thank you for your time, Carolyn: Yes, it is. your atention, and, of course, for coming to Poland! Carolyn: Yes, I do to some extent. Who are these folks? Often I write for academics who I think will Carolyn: I don’t want my stories to depress people. I al- take the story to other people, especially students. ways try to end in some hopeful way, but not in such And sometimes I have in mind speciic people, as a way that readers think, “and she lived happily ever Carolyn: I was going to respond that maybe this. Nobody has ever asked me these kinds of ques- well, such as those who sufer with stigmas, who after,” or believe that they will, as well. I want to con- I would prefer Carol’s story to be less risky, but tions about my work. have had a loved one die, or who have taken care front life’s problems, but I’m constantly thinking about then I thought “no” because she told us something of their mothers. My writing on the Holocaust has how much human tragedy people can take in, and how about the human condition that I think we need to Marcin: Thank you, I hope this means we’ll contin- more speciically taken into account the people I’m much is good for them to have to face. Also, I want to be aware of. ue the conversation. writing about, such as survivors themselves and make sure that as many folks as possible keep reading. Marcin: It is an explanation, but it doesn’t explain Carolyn: I’m sure, we shall. And we’ll keep sharing everything. stories. their families, though I know some of what I’m writing will not be of interest to them. 140 ©2014 PSJ Tom X Numer 3 Marcin: It’s unpredictable and risky... Marcin: So how to cope with it? Carolyn: My pleasure, Marcin. 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Dostępny w Internecie: ‹www.przegladsocjologiijakosciowej.org›. Przegląd Socjologii Jakościowej • www.przegladsocjologiijakosciowej.org 143