INTERFAITH ALLIANCE STATE OF BELIEF RADIO MAY 31, 2014

RUSH TRANSCRIPT: Matthew Vines

Click here for video
Click here for audio
[REV. DR. C. WELTON GADDY, HOST]: Matthew Vines is a popular
young Evangelical leader and writer. Committed to the idea of
fostering positive change from within the Church, Matthew heads the
Reformation Project, which trains Christians at the grassroots level
to support and affirm lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people.
He has a new book out, entitled God and the Gay Christian: The
Biblical Case In Support of Same-Sex Relationships, and I really am
very pleased to welcome Matthew Vines to State of Belief Radio.
Matthew, welcome!
[MATTHEW VINES, GUEST]: Thanks! Thanks for having me.
[WG]: First of all, congratulations on an impressive and, I think, very
important book. And I just have to ask, what made you write it?
[MV]: Well, it was really just a natural outgrowth of my life.
I came to terms with being gay four and a half years ago now, and
when I did, it was immediately clear to me that the biggest obstacle
ahead of me was trying to get my parents and my Church to be able
to understand. And for them, their interpretation of the bible they
had what I call a non-affirming interpretation of the bible when it
comes to LGBT people and relationships, and like a lot of

conservative Christians believe that the bible condemns all same-sex

relationships.
So for me it was really important to walk with them, and my dad in
particular, through the theological questions that they had; and
ultimately, after a lot of prayer and study and conversation, my dad
changed his perspective on the issue, and then I was able to try to
broaden the conversation to our church as a whole. And with some
people it went well; with other people it didnt go as well. But for gay
Christians in conservative and especially Evangelical churches, this
conversation about the bible and homosexuality has a huge impact
on our lives.
And so the book was really just a I had posted a video a couple of
years ago of a talk I gave on the subject, and the book, really,
expands on that, and goes into much more detail in a number of
areas, and just trying to provide the resources that I wished had
existed for me when I was first coming out. Now hopefully we can
have them exist for other people who are at that step in life.
[WG]: I dont want to look back; I want us to look forward. But I do
want to ask you: was coming out was that experience traumatic,
and did you experience the disappointment of people that you had
considered friends?
[MV]: It was definitely a scary experience, as I think for a lot of people
coming out is quite scary especially when they dont know how
longtime friends or family members are going to respond.
On the whole, it was a positive experience but not with everyone.
And there were some people who are their relationship with our
family is not what it once was as a result of that. But weve done our
2

best to try to extend grace to other people, even if they arent where
we would like them to be in terms of their views on the issue. But
relationships are a two-way street, so if there are some people who
dont really want to continue in relationship because of that, theres a
limit to what you can do. On the whole, though, it has been positive
with most of our friends even if they arent in agreement yet still a
positive dialogue in relationship.
[WG]: Matthew, you write that the good news of the Gospel is that the
bible does not condemn same-gender relationships. I grew up in the
Evangelical tradition in some ways, am Evangelical still about the
Gospel, for sure and I know people who would say, Thats just not
true. The Gospel is against this. So talk about that please, if you
would.
[MV]: Right. Well, I would say, first of all, the Good News of the
Gospel is that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that He died for our sins so
we can be reconciled to God not primarily that same-sex
relationships can be blessed.
However, I do think that same-sex relationships can be blessed by
God, and the basic argument that I outline in the book is that there
are six passages in the bible that refer to same-sex behavior. Theyre
all negative.
But that the type of same-sex behavior condemned in scripture is
significantly different from modern-day, long-term, committed samesex unions. And specifically, especially in the New Testament, when
Paul was writing against same-sex behavior, he was describing
same-sex behavior as an expression of out-of-control lust along the
lines of gluttony or drunkenness. It was a vice of excess that any
person could be prone to if he let himself go too much.
3

Thats a very different framework for thinking about and talking about
same-sex behavior than our modern framework of sexual orientation,
where were just talking about some people not who have lost control
and who could be satisfied with heterosexual relations but are going
beyond them in search of new and exotic pleasures, but people who
are simply gay, and they have a same-sex orientation an exclusive,
permanent, un-chosen orientation that they could express in lustful
ways, but they can also express in long-term, faithful, chaste,
responsible ways.
And so that kind of conversation about sexual orientation and the
long-term relationships that can be an expression of a gay orientation
thats not the same conversation that Paul was having in his
discussion of same-sex behavior in Romans I. And so its not that
Paul was wrong; its just that we are talking about a different issue
the issue of gay Christians and their relationships, where he was
talking about same-sex behavior as an expression of excessive lust
on the part of just anybody.
[WG]: Yeah. When you sat down to write this book, God and the Gay
Christian, who were you thinking of? Who did you imagine getting the
most out of what you were writing?
[MV]: Well, the first person I was thinking of was myself five years
ago, and the type of resource and book that I would have loved to
have had for my own understanding, and also to be able to give to
family and friends who I wanted to have a fruitful conversation with
about this.
The second person I was thinking about was my dad five years ago,
who held pretty strongly non-affirming beliefs at the time. He and my
4

mom have since changed their views and are fully supportive of me;
but at the time, thats where he was, and I didnt feel like there were
very many resources that met non-affirming people and by that I
mean people, Christians, who oppose same-sex relationships where
they were at in a respectful and loving way but also a way that could
help pave a path forward for them to a more affirming understanding
of LGBT people.
And so those were sort of the On the one hand I was thinking about
me and other gay Christians like me, who need more resources; and
then also the people in our lives who care about us but need to see a
path forward for them to be able to truly embrace and affirm us.
Those would be the main types of people I was thinking about.
[WG]: You know, I want you to correct me if Im wrong on something
here: I have read the book and I am really, really impressed by the
seriousness which you give to the biblical text.
[MV]: Well thank you.
[WG]: I know youre a young man, but you write as a biblical scholar,
which I think is so important, because there are a lot of people
especially a lot of gay people who struggle with the idea that the
bible says one thing, and that theyre living in contradiction to that. I
think also, Matthew, that there are other people that would be
homophobic, anti-gay, and the bible is just a crutch for them. They
dont usually look at the bible that much, but its convenient on this
particular issue. Talk about your passion for understanding those
verses that have been weights around a lot of gay peoples necks.
[MV]: Right. So, my passion sort of comes in two different directions.
One is what you just said, in terms of the way that these six passages
5

have been understood and applied has been really tragic in the lives
of countless LGBT people, where it has produced relational
brokenness, suicidalism, and just an incredible amount of damage
and destruction. And when I said in the book its bad fruit, thats from
when Jesus talks about how good trees bear good fruit and bad trees
bear bad fruit, in the context of false prophets. And in this case, that
teaching and misunderstanding of these verses has produced a
tremendous amount of terrible fruit in peoples lives. And I think that
should make everyone passionate about reassessing how were
thinking through this issue because thats just not the way that any
Christian teaching should play out in practice.
On the other hand, this issue has done more than any other issue in
our day to discredit the bible to a lot of people in our secular culture,
and to a lot of Christians who are struggling with their faith. They feel
like if the bible, properly understood and interpreted, produces that
kind of human suffering that wouldnt be produced otherwise, then its
very hard for them to continue to embrace the bible as Gods word.
And so I feel like the bible Christians are losing out on so many
opportunities to minister to people and to bring people into closer
relationship with Jesus and God through scripture.
And so also for that reason, its one reason I have a passion for
wanting to recover the heart of scriptures teachings on these
subjects, and to hopefully open the door for people to be able to reengage with scripture again, and to be able to see a lot of more value
where perhaps theyve seen less, recently.
[WG]: This past week I read the update that you sent to a lot of your
supporters and friends who are interested in what youre doing and
what the book is doing, and I picked up on that note that the Southern
Baptist Convention had written almost a hundred-page paper
6

criticizing your book before it ever came out. And you said you were
going to be responding to that. Tell me a little about those dynamics,
because I was surprised that they Well, I wasnt surprised they held
the view, but I was surprised that they responded in such a dramatic
way.
[MV]: Right, well what Albert Moller, who runs the Southern Baptist
Theological Seminary said in his response, was that hes concerned
only partly about the book, but partly about how the book is going to
be received by people, and how there are a number of Evangelicals,
he said, who feel very sympathetic to LGBT people and really want to
be able to change their beliefs and their views on the issue, but
theyve felt that their hands were tied by their interpretation of
scripture.
And so there are a lot of people who are very open and eager to be
able to engage with the type of argument that Im putting forward in
this book, and that ultimately want to be persuaded by it because
they feel in their hearts that that is what would be most consistent
with the life and example of Jesus. And so his concern was that the
book can reach people who really want to be able to accept it, and
therefore for Christians like him who disagree with my beliefs on this,
it needs to be combatted all the more fiercely because there is that
latent interest and openness to it.
[WG]: Good grief. I know Al well, and Ive debated him a lot of times
on television. And what bothers me about that is that its like he
doesnt want you to let people know the Gospel is Good News!
[MV]: You know, I mean, I try to look at things from his perspective.
And from his perspective, I dont think thats how he would process it,
and that he thinks that same-sex relationships are really all bad, so
7

that if were accepting something and calling something thats bad

good, then this actually undermines the Gospel.
The problem is that I dont think that he has close, meaningful
relationships with very many gay Christians or with gay Christians
who have really tried to walk the path of the teaching that he is
promoting, and for whom its been really harmful and crippling to their
spiritual walk, to their personal lives; and then also walked the path
with gay brothers and sisters who have been able to find a significant
other and create a meaningful, very valuable home life and family life
and see what good fruit that can bear in their lives and how they can
still be faithful followers of Jesus. I just dont think that thats really
very directly on his radar screen.
And so its not that You know, I can sympathize with where hes
coming from, but at the same time I think that he needs to meet some
more folks and really just be more open to hearing from Christians
who this affects much more directly than it affects him, because he
isnt gay.
[WG]: Yes. Right. Well, what do you envision, or what do you want,
people to feel after theyve read your book? I mean, they pick it up,
they read it what is the important message that you want them to
hear, find, and at least interact with, if not believe, as a result of what
youve written?
[MV]: I would say that the core message is that you can believe in the
full inspiration and authority of the bible, and still affirm committed,
monogamous, lifelong same-sex relationships. Thats the basic
message. And even if some Christians Changing peoples minds
can take a while. But I think that one of the greatest benefits that I
would hope people would get out of the book is reading it and saying,
8

Even if I dont know yet if I fully agree with his position, I see
sufficient faithfulness in this positions engagement with scripture. I
see sufficient persuasiveness and care and thoughtfulness in this
position that I am not going to be casting aspersions on the faith of
people who hold this position. And that basically this does not The
bible is not at stake in this conversation. Becoming gay-affirming does
not mean rejecting the authority of the bible.
[WG]: Right. And thats a great contribution, if that can happen, and
you certainly have made the case for it. You started Reformation
Project I know the title cant be accidental will you walk us through
some of the steps of your work that you do with folks at the grassroots
level?
[MV]: Right, so the Reformation Project is a non-profit organization I
launched last year to be training mostly lay Christians who are
affirming of LGBT people and who want to be having constructive
dialogue with non-affirming believers.
And so last year we had our first leadership training conference for
about 50 Christians from across the country very intensive prep
work for three months in advance, and really focusing on making sure
that affirming Christians know how to talk about the bible and
homosexuality in both respectful and persuasive ways. Which is not
something thats been our strong suit in the past.
And then this fall, were going to be hosting a much larger regional
training conference for up to 900 people in Washington, DC, at the
National City Christian Church from November 6th through the 8th.
Registration for that will open soon, at reformationproject.org, so
people will be able to sign up for that. And the main two goals of that
conference are, one, basic education and knowledgeability about how
9

to talk about the bible and homosexuality to non-affirming Christians;

and then two, becoming connected with other affirming Christians in
their local areas. So as they go back and are trying to open up the
conversation from the ground up from within their churches, theyre
going to have support from other people in their community, and
theyre going to have other people they can offer their support to as
well.
Both of those things are very important, and they have been missing
links so far in the dialogue in the Church.
[WG]: Matthew, what do you say to religious Right leaders who simply
deny that anyone who disagrees with them is an Evangelical or even
a Christian?
[MV]: Well, most people who say that would premise that statement
on their arguments about scripture. So I would say, lets engage on
scripture, and lets have the conversation about the theology here,
and about your interpretation of scripture on the subject. And
ultimately, I dont think that their interpretation is persuasive, and I
think that there is a more persuasive, more accurate one, and I think
that thats where the conversation needs to happen, then. If they want
to make that case that you cant believe in the full authority of
scripture and also affirm same-sex relationships then they need to
make some very persuasive counter-arguments to the arguments that
Ive laid out in the book, and I havent seen that yet.
[WG]: Yeah. Thats right. Well, one more question and Im just about
out of time but this is a personal question: Ive asked you about how
others have responded to your book; what has writing the book and
now talking with others about the book whats that done to you?

10

[MV]: Well, its actually been pretty encouraging to me, because when
I was first coming out especially to my broader church community
my real struggle was just to get people to listen, and just to create
enough openness to even have the conversation.
So what I find encouraging about all of this so far is, even though of
course not everybody agrees with me right now, we are really starting
to have the conversation. And were having the conversation with gay
Christians in the room. Its not going to cut it anymore to have a
quote-unquote conversation about homosexuality where its just a
bunch of straight, non-affirming people talking about this abstract of
gay other that isnt even there, and they can say all sorts of things
that you would never say if there were actually someone you knew
and loved as a brother and a friend in the Church with you in the room
with you.
And so its not just about having a conversation; its about making
sure that gay Christians have a voice on the conversation, and are
really being heard and listened to. And I feel like So to me, its just
very encouraging - even though I know theres a long way to go this
is a necessary step in getting there.
[WG]: Youre helping a lot of people take some very necessary steps,
and you are really wise for being your age; and youve made a great
contribution.
Matthew Vines is Founder and President of the Reformation Project,
which trains Christians at the grassroots level to support and affirm
lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people. His new book this is
one that if you have to sell your shirt to buy it, you ought to do that
his new book is titled God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case In
Support of Same-Sex Relationships.
11

Matthew, we know youre coming to DC because you told us that, and

if youll let us know, well be glad to cover your conference here, and
be glad to sit down in a studio with you. I hope that can happen, but
thank you so much for being with us today on State of Belief Radio!
[MV]: All right, thank you so much, Welton, I really appreciate it.

[WG]: And heres a post-script to that interview. In the time since the
taping, news has come out regarding the publisher of God and the
Gay Christian, WaterBrook Multnomah, which has published
numerous evangelical bestsellers, has resigned from the National
Religious Broadcasters. Whats now come to light is that there was
relentless pressure within the Evangelical community to suppress
Matthew Vines book entirely. And just publishing it has evidently
disqualified Multnomah from an ever-more-doctrinaire but hopefully,
ever-more-irrelevant world of right wing demagogues.

State of Belief is based on the proposition that religion has a positive

and healing role to play in the life of the nation. The show explains
and explores that role by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in
America the most religiously diverse country in the world while
exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for
partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for
sectarian purposes.
Each week, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy offers listeners critical
12

analysis of the news of religion and politics, and seeks to provide

listeners with an understanding and appreciation of religious liberty.
Rev. Gaddy tackles politics with the firm belief that the best way to
secure freedom for religion in America is to secure freedom from
religion. State of Belief illustrates how the Religious Right is wrong
wrong for America and bad for religion.
Through interviews with celebrities and newsmakers and field reports
from around the country, State of Belief explores the intersection of
religion with politics, culture, media, and activism, and promotes
diverse religious voices in a religiously pluralistic world.

Author of more than 20 books, including First Freedom First: A

Citizens Guide to Protecting Religious Liberty and the Separation of
Church and State, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy leads the national
non-partisan grassroots and educational organization Interfaith
Alliance and serves as Pastor for Preaching and Worship at
Northminster (Baptist) Church in Monroe, Louisiana.
In addition to being a prolific writer, Dr. Gaddy hosts the weekly State
of Belief radio program, where he explores the role of religion in the
life of the nation by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America,
while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion
for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government
for sectarian purposes.
Dr. Gaddy provides regular commentary to the national media on
issues relating to religion and politics. He has appeared on MSNBCs
The Rachel Maddow Show and Hardball, NBCs Nightly News and
Dateline, PBSs Religion and Ethics Newsweekly and The Newshour

13

with Jim Lehrer, C-SPANs Washington Journal, ABCs World News,

and CNNs American Morning. Former host of Morally Speaking on
NBC affiliate KTVE in Monroe, Louisiana, Dr. Gaddy is a regular
contributor to mainstream and religious news outlets.
While ministering to churches with a message of inclusion, Dr. Gaddy
emerged as a leader among progressive and moderate Baptists.
Among his many leadership roles, he is a past president of the
Alliance of Baptists and has been a 20-year member of the
Commission of Christian Ethics of the Baptist World Alliance. His past
leadership roles include serving as a member of the General Council
of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, President of Americans United
for Separation of Church and State, Chair of the Pastoral Leadership
Commission of the Baptist World Alliance and member of the World
Economic Forums Council of 100. Rev. Gaddy currently serves on
the White House task force on the reform of the Office of Faith Based
and Neighborhood Partnerships.
Prior to the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist
Convention (SBC), Dr. Gaddy served in many SBC leadership roles
including as a member of the conventions Executive Committee from
1980-84 and Director of Christian Citizenship Development of the
Christian Life Commission from 1973-77.
Dr. Gaddy received his undergraduate degree from Union University
in Jackson, Tennessee and his doctoral degree and divinity training
from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville,
Kentucky.

14