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original teachings.

NOTE: THERE ARE TWO TYPINGS OF CLASS TWO

Buddhist Refuge, Class 1
Buddhist Refuge and the Three Jewels
11/5/93
Week one is about the kinds of refuge according to the Madhyamika textbooks.
What is refuge and what is going for refuge? Its a very important subject. Its
what makes you a Buddhist. If you have refuge you re a Buddhist. If you dont
you re not a Buddhist. Period. Thats the, thats like the conformation of a
Buddhist. And its not the verbal refuge, its the mental attitude of refuge.
Week two is the wish for enlightenment, thats bodhichitta and you ll learn
everything you wanted to know about it. Its very, very detailed section about
bodhichitta. The, were gonna be studying from a monastic textbook which has
that, the most detailed treatment you ll, that exists on these subjects.
Week three is What is Nirvana.
I think if I if I pass around a paper and
everybody wrote down their idea of what nirvana is I, I doubt there would be
one correct one. And, and you will learn what nirvana is. Its very interesting.
And all the kinds of nirvana. And, and everything about nirvana. Its very, very
beautiful. That is one of your goals. But maybe you dont know what it is
[laughs] Okay.
Week four, Proofs for Emptiness.
This is a very famous section call
{cheekdadaw} and these are the arguments that are given in the support of the
idea of emptiness. I think if you pass a paper around most Buddhist centers and
ask them to give a good argument for emptiness you might not get a good
argument. But here you re gonna have all the arguments that are, were given
by Nagarjuna and Chandrakirit,
Ayurdeva.
These are the, the classical
arguments because this is the Asian Classics. Okay.
Um, who is Maitreya? This is a favorite subject of mine because this was my pregeshe debate, was this, they hand out slips of paper with your debate on it and
that was my debate. You know, who is Maitreya? And ah, so thats one of my
favorite subjects. Its a very holy subject because it is, I think, the only place that
I m aware of in, in the open teachings of Buddhism where the secret teachings
are justified. And it, and, and the reason for the secret teachings and how they
work is explained in terms of the open teachings. So thats, thats to me very
exciting when I, when I found that I found out
Week six is Conclusion and Finale examine. The, the way that works the old
students know. The homework comes from what Ive taught in class except for
that thing about the thing about a {kalpa} [laughs]This is what I forgot to explain
something in class and I got about twenty phone calls. [laughs]And then the

quizzes come from the, directly from the homework. I just go to the computer
and chop off some of the questions. And then the finale comes directly from the
quizzes. So they, you know what to expect when you come to the classes. Its
never anything, never any surprises, on purpose. All right.
So the first subject were gonna cover tonight is refuge, [unclear], read. We,
were gonna do the, were gonna try to do this right, okay? I m not supposed to
teach unless you ask and, so first we do...
[Student: and well do the _?_ these three times? ]
Yeah, and then we do {mandala} So he s our, Tom is our {umjay}. {Umjay}
means chanting master. Okay? Somebody asked me if we could have some
kind of a, a, a tune to it but I ll, I ll bring you one, next time.
[Student: For those of you who arent familiar with it, I dont know if anyone is
or isnt, but its the first page in white with Tibetan writing on it in the book and
then we ll be doing the third page with Tibetan writing.].
Now these are out of order by the way. I had a very busy day. You should put
the mandala before the ngowa.
[Student: So make the third page in Tibetan writing the second page.]
Ah, you try to remember why you re taking this class. The basic reason for
mandala is to request the teaching. Thats your formal request for teaching.
Otherwise I cant teach you. And then the third one is Dedication, which is
dedicating the good deed that you did to something higher, you know? Go
ahead.
[prayer: refuge]
[prayer:short mandala]
Okay, subjects of the second course is The Perfection of Wisdom, okay,
Perfection of Wisdom. This yeah? Too hot?
[student]
You could turn the thing off downstairs. Maybe John you ought to do it? You
know where it is? On the wall.

Okay sectoin on Wisdom was originally taught by the Buddha, all right,
Shakyamuni.
[silence]
500BC, okay. In India, its one group of the sutras that He taught, all right and
those sutras, sutra means any any teaching of the Buddha, an open teaching
of the Buddha, not a secret of the Buddha.
Okay.
And He taught
Prajnaparamita, 500BC, He taught many, many books of it, He taught it for fifty
years, fifty one years. We dont have all those books. Mainly we have three left.
They are not only three but we normally refer to them the main three and those
are call {misum}, okay.
Say {gye} [repeat] {Dring} [repeat] {du} [repeat] {sum) {repeat}. You guys dont
have to learn the Tibetan. You are the English course, you re gonna learn
English and you re gonna teach it to your students in English. And thats how
Buddhism in America will spread in English. But, anyway, I d like you to get this
seed in your mind for it. Its a holy language and its good for you. Okay?
{Gye} means basically long.
{Dring} means middlely, middle.
And {du} means short. And {sum} means three. Okay? {gye dring du sum}
[Student: {Sum} means? Im sorry]
Long means the, the longer sutra on the Perfection of Wisdom. And that has
one hundred thousand verses. Okay? Thats the long version. [laughs] Okay?
Thats actually the shortest version in India but the others are lost. [laughs] All
right? A hundred thousand verses. The middle, the middle length book about
the Perfection of Wisdom, the middle one is twenty thousand verses. We call it
{Meechie}. And the short one is {gye tomba} which means eight thousand
verses.
I, we ve put the second one and the third one in the computer already and I was
dying to know if whether it was verses or lines and I asked the computer
[laughs] last night, it took it about three hours and its, its interesting, its lines.
Its not really verses. Everybody calls it the eight thousand verses but I was a
little suspicious cause it seemed too short. And its really just lines. So anyway...
[student]
No. Ah, not really. And theyre surprising. Theyre not like philosophical
literature. If you read them they are some very wonderful descriptions of
meditation and what certain people did to get wisdom. I think one of the most
famous stories that I enjoy from them is the, the bodhisattva who couldnt stop
crying. Hes, hes called the ever-weeping, {Dokenyu}. And how he gained
wisdom, you know, how he went to find his teacher. What he went through to

find his teacher. Hes crying not because of love of sentient beings, which is
what you always think when you read his name, hes crying because he s trying
to sell his arms and his legs in the market to, to get money to offer his teacher to
learn the Perfection of Wisdom, and these
demons block his voice. So hes screaming but no one can hear him. And hes
crying out of frustration [laughs]. So that was what he was worth, thats what it
was worth to him, you know, he, he didnt have any money, he was gonna give
up his, he wanted to sell the, the flesh on his arms for the, for the, to learn the
Perfection of Wisdom. Something like that. So thats {gye dring du sum}.
[Student: Is that a true story?]
Of course! [laughs] Ah, these are the three, the three great teach books that we
have left about the Perfection of Wisdom. Theyre in the {kangyur}, theyre in,
they are in the Tibetan, they dont exist all of them in the sanskrit anymore.
Those were burned when the Muslims came to India around eight hundred. We
dont have the original books except in Tibetan. Okay? Ah, {gye dring du sum}.
As is normal in, in Buddhism then you have somebody in the Middle Ages
making a commentary on matter. And that is... you know.
(silence)
Maitreya, all right. Maitreay is sometimes call the future Buddha. Hes hes
suppose to be the next Buddha who comse. We dont say that there is just one
Buddha, we say there are thousands and Hes the next in this planet. He .. He
lives in a Buddha paradise, we cant see him. Some people say hes just a
bodhisattva, hes not a Buddha and in fact thats going to be the subject of our
last class, theres a big fight about it.
You see in in.. when the Buddha taught in India he had a student named
Maitreya and he was the bodhisattva, or appear to be a bodhisattva, so there is a
big debate about it. Anyway Maitreya taught a book to Asanga.
(silence)
Asanga is a wonderful story about Asanga, we spoke about it last weekend.
There was a nun in India, we believe it was about three hundred A.D., or three
hundred and fifty A.D., so we, we believe that if, we dont know, but Western
scholars guess that he, he lived around three-fifty A.D. His mother was a nun,
which is a contradiction in terms. She, she was a very good nun and she had a
vision that if she married the king and if she had a children, that, that child

would be exceptional. Those children would be exceptional. So even though she

had no desire to live a family life she, she gave up her robes and she married the
king and they had two children. And one was Vasabhandu, who wrote the [b.
Abhidharmia- kosha. And the other wasAsanga who wrote down the five most,
five of the most famous books in Buddhism. So between those two twins youve
got most of the course in a Buddhist monastery [laughs] whats written by one
of those two. Which is amazing, okay? And they were like incredible.
[Student: Can you write down the name of the sibling he...]
The other one? The Brother? Yeah. Can you see it by Goudwoller?
(silence)
[Student: Can you say the name of the book by Vasabhandu]
Yeah. Let me, I think I spelled that right but I d better check it. He wrote the
[b:Abhidharma]
the main text for [b: Abdhidharma]
Its called the [b.
Abhidharmakosha.] And thats, thats the last subject that you will study.
Asanga wrote, wrote down the subject, the book that you re studying now,
which is, has a long name, and I won t put it in Sanskrit I ll put it in...
[silence]
Its called [b. The Ornament of Realizations.]
[Student: Thats the book within (unclear)?]
Well, I m gonna explain it. This is this onion thing of Buddhist commentaries
[laughs], okay?
Onion skin. So you have the Buddha, five hundred BC,
speaking these three books. They weren t written down until much later.
People memorized them as he taught because people in the old days had better
minds than we have. Because were corrupted by, as you can see if you walk
outside [laughs], Okay? Ah, the Buddha taught b. {gye dring du sum}. He
taught those three books about the perfection of wisdom and then, we believe
around 300AD but you know, thats but, you know, thats a Western scholar
guess and really Western scholars we, we dont have any idea actually, we just
guess. I mean its pretty much guess. Maitreya taught this book to Asanga. He
taught [b. The Ornament of Realizations], to Asanga. Okay. Western scholars
say, Asanga wrote it. Buddhists believe Asanga had a had and a, he, he

was able to meet Maitreya directly and Maitreya told him what to write. And if
you memorize that book which you are required to in the monastery its about
fifty pages, its incredible and the last chapter, the eighth chapter, is What is a
Buddha? And the verse, the the beat changes, the rhythm changes and you
get this feeling that a Buddha wrote it. You know its very holy and... so, you
know if you ever get the chance to memorize it you ll see. Okay, so Maitreya,
we, we believe Maitreya taught it to Asanga. Yeah?
[Student: So the name of the commentary then is b. The Ornament of
Realization? ]
Yeah. So [b. The Ornament of Realizations] is a commentary on the, the original
sutras. The original books on the The Perfection of Wisdom, of which we have
mainly these three. There are more. There are five or six. Everybody got it
straight?
So Buddha taught those three {gyen dring du sum}, by the way the three are
called, these, if you wanna cheat, and you want one name for all of them.
(silence)
{Yum}, theyrecalled {Yum}.
[Student: Doesn t that mean mother?]
Yeah. You know {yub yu} right? {Yubyum} means like holy husband and holy
wife. Like a spiritual husband and a spiritual wife. {yum}, so {yum} means wife
or mother. Okay? And, and we call it the, the, the original books taught by the
Buddha about the perfection of wisdom are called The Mother.
Okay?
Theyrecalled {yum}. So if somebody asks you what are you studying you say
Oh, {ym=um}.Ims tudying {yum}. This is by the way, you have to know a little
bit Tibetan in case some Tibetan asks you what Michael Roach is teaching you.
[laughs] And this is called, we call this {Gyen}. Okay? Ornament of realizations
is called {gyen}. {Gyen} is the word in Tibetan for ornament.
(silence)
So these are thousands of pages. This is fifty pages. Its written in code.
{[unclear]}. Thats the opening lines we ll talk about. So its a, its a beautiful
book Ah, you cant understand it. Its code. Its written in code because its
easier to memorize. Okay? And then you learn the code from your teacher.

And thats the way they teach Buddhism in monasteries. You, you memorize
this book in the monastery before you re twelve years old and then your teacher
unlocks it for you. So we cant read it directly, we need a commentary, on the
commentary.
[student]
Were gonna use the commentary by...
(silence)
Okay? Haribhadra. Haribhadra. By the way this is the only historical part Ill
ever teach you so dont get too bored. But its kind of frustrating, in a
monastery they dont explain much of this to you. He lived about 850A.D.
[Student: He was Indian?]
Yeah. He wrote in Sanskrit. He s Indian. His lion, his name means pure lion.
[Student: Pure lion?]
Yeah.
(silence)
And he wrote a book .
[silence]
He wrote couple of books, I mean long, but he wrote a short commentary on
The Ornament, called The Clarification. That book is too hard for us to study.
[laughs] [laughter]I, really, I, I promise you. So we need a commentary on that.
([aughter]
silence)
Were running out of space here. And a, the, the great Tibetan commentaries
were written by Tsong Khapa and his students around fourteen hundred. I m
not gonna write that down because were not even gonna study those because
those are too hard. I m not kidding. Okay? We spend, we spend eighteen years

on Gyalsup Jes commentary for example on logic and we never reach halfway
through the book. Okay? So you cant study Tsong Khapa direct. You would
have trouble to study Tsong Khapas explanation. Its about a thousand pages
probably. Ah, so, we ll skip right to [laughs]... {[unclear]}.
Thats the commentary on a commentary on a commentary on a commentary,
on commentary to the Buddhas
[student]
Oh no, thats his name. Thats the author.
[student: commenting on the Clarification?}
Hes commenting on The Clarification and on Tsong Khapa but mostly on the
Clarification.
He we know his dates. He was born the year after Columbus sail the
[unclear]
[student: which text is Tsong Khapas?
Its call {[unclear]} Im not going to write it, cos I dont want to overload you.
You are not responsible to know that. He s from the greatest Buddhist
monastery of all times, Sera Me. (laughter) [laughs] Right?
Student: Sera Je?
Not Sera Je And a, I, I said that to a monk from Sera Je recently and he said Oh,
yes, he had a great teacher. Cause his teacher was from Sera Je. [laughs] All
right? So, he ah, he s from my monastery. Its one of the six great monasteries
in Tibet. There s three great monasteries according to Westerners but really
theyreall split into two monasteries and we, we dont , we, we compete with
each other. And he wrote the textbooks that we study the [b. Perfection of
Wisdom ] from. We study it for twelve years in the monastery. You re gonna
study it for about a year-and-a-half, something like that. Okay. And he wrote a
book, were gonna write, study a book called the...
(silence)
He wrote a book called [b. The Analyses of The Perfection of Wisdom]. Okay?

(silence)
And I took that book and I chopped out the easy parts for you guys. [laughs]
What do I mean? I mean Gulugpa my tradition o in Tibet, we are accused
of being too scholastic, you know, too dry. Too boring. Dont meditate enough
and we just debate about small points.
Ill tell you, its, its, it doesnt fit
everyone. Some people dont want to know all this stuff and dont need to
know all this stuff. They dont have the, the patience or the, the aptitude for it.
This book was taught for Asanga. This book was only supposed to be read by
high level bodhisattvas. It was meant only to be read by great saints. So were
just kind-a peeking at it. The, the intended audience for that book, and itsays it
at the beginning of the book, is, is people who are already on a very, very high
level.
[Student: Which book?]
The {b:Abhisamayalamkara, The Ornament of Realizations], is, all, all of these
books are very difficult because they are teaching what, mainly?
[Student: Logic?]
Emptiness. Okay, they are teaching emptiness. They are very difficult. The
Buddha didnt even teach emptiness to many of his disciples. Okay? He, he, he
didnt even touch emptiness in most, in the case of, in the first his whole first
round of teachings that he gave in his life he did not mention emptiness. He did
not get into emptiness. Cause people couldnt understand it. He didnt, in fact
he didnt even want to teach at all. I, I think at six weeks or eight weeks he
stayed in the forest [laughs] until, he didnt wanna talk, talk to anybody. [laughs]
Ah, its difficult, its difficult. It takes some time and it takes some thinking and it
takes some training. And, ah, if you dont do it you can go into meditation and
get some explanation from somebody and I, I would say probably you will not
understand emptiness. I, I, I can say, with some certainty, that you will not
perceive emptiness and then um, you cant escape suffering. Its the only
method to escape suffering. Its the only real method, okay? There are other
methods to get out of pain in, in the short term. You know, do good deeds, love
other people, you know, as much as you can. And, and thats true. It will
prevent you from hurting. But if you want
to permanently stop suffering you must understand this subject. Its, its the
only method that can, that can get you to what you would call paradise or the

end of your suffering. Okay? So its difficult. But if you take the time to learn it
you then when you meditate, then when you go into meditation and you
have all this stuff in your head and you dont have to bring a book with you, ah,
you, you will see some incredible things happening. You, you will truly
understand emptiness and then, if that happens to you, you, within the same half
hour, as you perceive emptiness directly in meditation, you meet Buddha. You
meet the Buddha. Directly. You perceive the Four Noble Truths which means
you perceive your past lives. Directly. In meditation. You know that you have
had, had a past life. You perceive your future and you know how many lives it
will take you to be out of this kind of life. You know? Like you can say okay
seven more lives, I know. I will not suffer during those seven lives. I will live in
a high family. I will have all the money I need. And at the end of those seven
lives I will finish all my suffering. It, I, I cannot stay in this kind of existence more
than seven more lives. Okay? Like that. I mean right now you dont even
know if have a future life. You just sort of have a feeling about it. You, you
perceive all these things directly. A very important thing that happens to you at
that moment is that you see that you re not crazy. [laughs]You know you re
right. You know you re not hallucinating. And, and you can reach this point.
You can reach this stage. You can see these things. Okay? You, you will see
these things. But you need some training. Cannot do it without training.
According to Buddhism you ve been here a few million years without training.
[laughs] Okay? It, it will not happen without training. And, and if you are
fortunate, and if you are virtuous, you, you can see these things, and you will see
these things. And then there s no, what can you, what do you care about
anything if you know you re gonna live seven more lives and you know whats
gonna happen in those lives. So what do you care? Who care tell you anything?
You know? Who, who can convince you of anything else if you saw them and
you know you re not crazy. If you know, you know, one thing if you see them
on LSD or something. [laughs] Its a different thing if you see them and you
know you re correct. You saw them directly. And then, and then who, who can
tempt you, you know, with anything worldly, you know?
[Student: Just to be a bodhisattva to be.bodhisattva?]
No. You dont have to be a bodhisattva.
[Student: What is it precisely that leads to this perception?]
Perceive emptiness directly. And you, and the method to perceive emptiness
directly is... contemplating emptiness in an intellectual way. Okay? You cant

skip from no training to perceiving emptiness directly. [laughs] First you

perceive, you perceive it intellectually. You talk about it. You think about it.
You get a very good idea about it. And then the highest stages of that, there s a,
there s a stage called heat, which means you re getting hot. And, and you will
have the experience that ah, you will perceive how things are an illusion. Just
before you perceive emptiness directly you perceive what, there, students now
were building, okay? The students in the first class know dependent origination.
You perceive dependent origination for the first time. You know that this chair
is a product of your conceptions and, and just a picture in your mind. And you
see it directly for the first time. And then the next half hour you go into a state
of meditation and you perceive emptiness directly. That is a totally different
experience.
[Student: So you have to be able to be able to... ]
You, you have to have the heat before you get the vision, you know? You have
to have that training. Of course you have to have that training. Its very difficult
to see this thing. If you, if it wasn t difficult to see you wouldn t be here cause it
is the antidote for this life. Its what stops this life. If it wasnt difficult you
wouldn t be here. We, we d be gone. We d be in a much nicer place, okay? The,
the proof of us not having seen emptiness is that were here. Okay? And before
you perceive that you, you need much training of the body. So we say, the, the
classic, in all the Buddhist texts it says meditation and before that contemplation
and before that study. Classroom hours. You know? I think Rinpoche is, we
counted up, now recently in fact, four thousand hours he taught since he came
here. And, and that, Id say thats about what it takes. [laughs] Something like
that No it just takes, and its not just understanding intellectually the first time.
You have to hear it over and over again. You, it starts to affect your being. And
then, and then suddenly one day things start to happen. You cannot do it
without learning. You cannot do it without training. Its very difficult to do it.
Its much harder then running a three-minute mile or, or any another
understanding, Einstein or, its, its much more important. And its, and its much
more foreign to our, to our state of mind. [laughs] So it takes training. So its not
a waste of time to sit here and learn all the fine details. And I would say that
without doing that you probably cant perceive it. Unless you have done it in
your past life and then, you know, and you were very close to doing it. You
know? Okay? So this is the bo
ok we ll be, these are the, this is the, I like to call it the onion skin. You know the
Buddhas speech is in the middle and, in the center, and then there s the early
Indian, then there s the later Indians, then there s the early Tibetans and theres

the later Tibetans, sometimes there s a nineteen century; twenty century Tibetan
and then theres us Americans trying too, you have to go back through the
commentaries. You cannot understand this. I swear you cannot understand this.
You, you cant read this and you cant understand Tsong Khapa. I, I, Ill give you
some Tsong Khapa. I, there s some sutra here, its, its a, you know [laughs], you
need to go back this way. Its very wonderful. Some Western scholars like to
try and skip all those and its kind-a funny what they come up with.
Okay, now were on to The Perfection of Wisdom. What is The Perfection of
Wisdom? Any guesses? What, what do you think The Perfection of Wisdom is?
Its very famous. {Prajnaparamita}, Perfection of Wisdom.
[student]
Thats what the word mean, okay. The word that we translate in in English as
perfection means to go beyond thats not thats not right.
[student]
anymore?
[student]
Okay, any more gueses? There are all
[student]
Yeah, okay, do you have to be Buddha to get it? Is it the knowledge in a
Buddhas mind?
All.. all partially I mean all close, okay. But, no, its define as {[unclear]} which
means, basically its the perception of emptiness linked with the desire to help all
other living beings.
[student]
Thats what the Perfection of Wisdom is. And and thats a precious little
knowledge, okay. Youll hear this word use by for the rest of your life in
Buddhist magazines and stuff like that, what are they talking about? They dont
dont, I think. The definition is, perceiving emptiness under the influence of love.
[student; Whose definition is that?]
Maitreya and the Buddhas.. Thats a nice thing, youre getting what I teach is
not my idea, it[s not even a Tibetans idea, its not even a Sanskrit authors idea,

its sutra, its Buddhas own speech.

You have to turn it off from up there. its okay? Its kind of cranky.
[student]:

Oh, yeah. Its the, its the perception of emptiness, okay? Its to see emptiness
with, under the influence of the desire to help all living beings. Okay?
(silence)
Why do they say under the influence? Because at that moment, as you are
perceiving emptiness, you, you cant have any other emotion directly. You cant
have love in your you cant have love in your mind when you re perceiving
emptiness. Its such a in, its a different experience. They call it {chulachushappa}l
water poured into water. The, the perception you have that that moment is
totally different than any perception you have ever had. And at that moment
you cant perceive your friends, you cant even perceive yourself. You cant
even think about yourself. I mean you come out of it and you try to explain it to
other people, you cant. Okay. So, but your mind never loses that love. The
love is there and its in Tibetan
its called holding your mind. Your mind is, your mind is imbued, your mind is
soaked with love. Youre perceiving emptiness directly. But, but the whole time,
the reason youre doing it, what you want to do when you get out, that whole
experience is for other people. For other beings You know?
Student: You re talking about {Prajnaparamita} as opposed to experiencing
emptiness without it being linked to bodhichitta?
Right. So thats the definition of {unclear}.
Student: You dont mean to say that anyone who perceives emptiness has ..
Achieved Prajanaparamita? No.
[Student: right. So you re distinguishing between someone else who would
perceive emptiness without bodhichitta]
Without love.

]Student: And {Prajnaparamita}].

Yeah, yeah. Its not, its not the perfection of wisdom if you dont have the
motivation and the desire to be helping all other people.
[Student: What is it?]
[student:But thats bodhichitta.]
Oh, its just a perception of emptiness. [laughs] We ll get into it. Its a long story.
It, its the subject of our text.
[Student: Can someone who is a Hinayana achieve The Perfection of Wisdom? ]
No. They can achieve wisdom.
[Student; So Hinayana predated Mahayana so how did it come to pass that the
Buddha said this directly and this was before Mahayana was invented?]
Mahayana wasn t invented. The Buddha spoke Mahayana. Okay? The Buddha,
there are, well study thats ubject during this course. There are three great
phases in the Buddhas teaching career. And they are each, theyre separate.
And the first phase was Hinayana. But the, The Perfection of Wisdom is, is
Mahayana. Okay? Now canthey become an rrhat? Canthey achieve nirvana
without this? Yes. Can they become a Buddha without this? No. And you d
know that if you took the first course. Hopefully. [laughs]
Okay. Perfection of Wisdom.
The, the perception of {shunyata}, under the
influence of bodhichitta, in the mind, okay, of a bodhisattva arya. In the mind of
an arya-bodhisattva, okay? Two things there. Bodhisattva and ayra. Okay?
What does aria mean? Anybody remember? What does it, how do you get to
be an aria? It doesn t mean what Hitler said, okay? [laughs] It was a couple of
thousand years before that. What does it mean? Aiiya! Its, its a...
[Student: It Catch twenty-two here, it?
Student: (unclear) by being a bodhisattva.
Huh? No. Aiiya. Maybe we didnt have it. Aiya is anyone who has perceived

emptiness directly.
[student]
We ll go over it...
[Student: You talking about Arhats?]
No. I ll talk about three words, okay?
(silence)
I used to get these confused too. So you re in good company. [laughs] [laughter]
Student: The first one you said an aria by (unclear)?
Yeah, I m saying that my description of what The Perfection of Wisdom is, it
must be in the mind of an arya-bodhisattva. He must be an aria and he must be
a bodhisattva. What is an arya and what is a bodhisattva, okay? An arya is
anyone who has seen emptiness directly in a deep state of meditation. Have you
perceived emptiness? You have, tonight. Okay? I said the word emptiness, you
had some perception of it. You did not perceive emptiness directly. You have an
intellectual perception of emptiness tonight. But you have not perceived it
directly, I guess. I cant tell. I dont know. Okay.
(silence)
We ll skip to bodhisattva. A bodhisattva is any being who has the genuine desire
to become a Buddha to help other, all other, all other living beings.
(silence)
So can you be one without the other?
[Student: Sure.]
Yeah, we talked about, we did talk about that.
[student]

Bodhisattva... okay, okay. Bodhisattva is easier to reach than ar well its a long
story...
[student]
You can, you can reach a desire to help all other living beings and not see
emptiness yet. Okay? Its a, you can have that love before you have that
perception of emptiness. You can also have the opposite happen. You can
perceive emptiness first and later move up to Mahayana.
(silence)
So bodhisattva is anyone who has that real desire to help other people. And
aryas is anyone who has seen emptiness directly. And arhat is a person who has
reached nirvana.
[Student: So isn t it redundant to say that {prajnaparakita} can only happen in the
mind of a arya bodhisattva because you cant be an arya bodhisattva unless you
perceive {prajnaparamita]
Yeah thats true and unless your mind is embued with that.
[student: in other words anybody who you
{prajnaparamita} unless you were a arya bodhisattva]

couldnt experience

But they have other state of mind and _?_ state of mind. Okay.
[student: Michael how can .. the different between arya and arhat, what would it
be because ?]
No, you can percieve emptiness directly but it takes many, many it takes a lot
of training after that to use that emptiness to stop all your bad thoughts. An
arhat is person who has stopped permanently his anger, his desire, his jealousy,
all those other emotions. He cannot have them any more. To do that you must
perceive emptiness. You can hold back your anger and your jealousy and desire,
with other kinds of method and thats what the Dalai Lama was talking about in
Arizona, mainly, you can use a lot of little mental tricks to try to control yourself
but its only controlling yourself. If you understood emptiness you would not
have those, thats the way to stop them permanently. Stopping them
permanently, never getting angry again is nirvana. Nice its a nice thing to

work for.
[student]
Is the kettle boiling it? No, I doubt it. We have to dump some tea in it later. I
just spices in it but no tea. And I think she has tea on the .. near the sink the
there.
Okay
[student: why did you say, unless I wrote the wrong definition, it says, one who
has seen, arya and one who has seen emptiness directly in a deep state of
meditation but then you refer to us as, when we trying to figure out what
emptiness was, you are an arya]
No, youve understood emptiness in an intellectual way
[student: but we are not an arya then?]
You have some idea about what emptiness means, because weve been talking
about it but you havent perceive it directly because of that. Okay. There is a
joke in Tibetan, you know, you do the {kyabdro semkye} before class, so do you
have .. did you reach {semkye}, did you reach bodhicitta, because you recited
[unclear]? Okay.
[student: I think there is an important distinction always made between
intellectual understanding and the direct perception of right?]
Yeah.
[student: wait, I am sorry, I must have misunderstood.
then?]

We are not an arya

No. I dont think so.

[student: he said that weve perceived emptiness but not directly]
Its like I can talk about, who is a famous person that you know [Richard
Geer} [laughs] I fan talk about a famous person whove not met personally, that
youve not seen directly. When I start talking about him, you get a mental

picture of him. In that sense you understand Richard Geer but you havent
experienced him directly. When you meet him face to face, thats the direct
perception of Richard Geer.
All right thats the perfection of wisdom. There are three different levels of the
Perfection of Wisdom and I will just say it quickly.
One is call the path, the Perfection of Wisdom in the path. Thats the Perfection
of Wisdom in the mind of a person who has not a Buddha. Okay. Hes not
perfect yet but he saw emptiness directly and he has that love. Yeah, taken _?_,
Mahayana _?_, but you dont need to know that.
The second kind of Perfection of Wisdom is the one that Laura is talking about.
The one in the mind of the Buddha, okay, a person who sees all things. Thats
the second kind of Perfection of Wisdom. At the same time, she sees emptiness
directly and she perceives every single thing in the universe that ever was and
ever will be. And he perceives the thing itself at the same thing, which no one
else can do. When you percieve directly the emptiness of John, you cant see
John at that moment but his mind is different. He cant he can see every
thought in the mind of every being who ever lived and ever will live in one
moment.
[student]
Yeah this is call result, okay. This is the Perfection of Wisdom of the result.
Thats the one we are trying to get.
[student]
As he perceive his emptiness. And we cant do that.
[student]
Yeah. He sees the way it looks to us and he sees the way it really is at the same
time, which we cant do. We either seen one or the other. But thats a it is a
long story, you dont need to know thatl
The final Perfection of Wisdom is books about the perfection. The books, the
few sutras. Those are called the Perfection of Wisdom, right? There are all the
Prajanaparamita sutra. They are the books about wisdom. Are they the
Perfection of Wisdom really? Are they really the Perfection of Wisdom? Are the
Perfection of Wisdom sutra that the Buddha taught, the middle one, the short
one and the long one, are they the Perfection of Wisdom?
No, they are not. Why not?

Whats the big when you are debating, what do you say? Okay. If you think
its Perfection of Wisdom then show me the definition of Perfection of Wisdom.
No its easy. There is only two things you need. No only two things you need.
What is the Perfection of Wisdom? Whats the Perfection of Wisdom? Only two
things. What?
[student]
Youve perceived emptiness and you have this love.
The perception of
emptiness under the influence of this unbearable love, is Perfection of Wisdom.
Yeah, it cant be a book. The book is something you can see and touch.
Perfection of Wisdom is what, mental or physical? Its mental. Its a mental
state. Its like jealousy, right? [laughs] Its like anger, I mean its a mental state,
you cant see it, you cant touch it, you cant taste it. You undergo it, you feel it,
you have it in your mind.
So really the third Perfection of Wisdom is not the Perfection of Wisdom, its the
book, okay. Actually in Buddhism we say, we dont say book, we say its sound
because its really the word, as the Buddha spoke its those sound that people
heard.
[student: I guess what I was getting at when I said that, was that the fact that
the fact that the Buddha spoke it and they were sound and the Buddha Himself
achieved that, was that [unclear]]
Oh sure.
[student: in some respect it was the Perfection of Wisdom, that was I[unclear]]
[cut]
Perfection of Wisdom call the mother, the mother of all [unclear], its mother of
the Buddha.
[student: what do you mean, the mother of Buddha?]
Its what produces Buddha. At the in this verse, in the opening lines of the
book it says, {[unclear]} I bow down to next Buddha, okay. Usually at the
beginning of a book, you bow down to the Buddha, or you bow down to some
bodhisattva but this book is special, at the beginning of this book, they bow
down to the mother.

[student: what about the father?}

[laughs] Comes later. Six years. [laughs] Seriously, okay. Just the mother, all
right. The mother of Buddhas. In fact thats the name of Heart Sutra, the real
name of Heart Sutra? Its [unclear] Bhagavarti, a female Buddha. Okay. The
words of the Heart Sutra is a feminine, okay. Its the mother. Wisdom is the
mother. Wisdom the baby of wisdom is the Buddha. And the Buddha bows
down to what made Him a Buddha. Okay. Thats why its call the mother. And
its obvious, right, third path, third Mahayana path, how do you get to number
five, you got to have number three, number three is mother of number five.
Thats all, take about a ten minute break. There is somebody should open up
all the stuff. Ani-la [unclear] you should thank her, she really worked hard to
clean up, all that stuff,.
[cut]
Basically refuge means that there are three kinds of refuge. What doest
refuge mean? Refuge means very simply, we are going to take about it next
week. Two things have to present for refuge, okay. Two things have to present.
You guess, you tell me. What do you think are two things that are necessary for
refuge to happen?
[student: renunciation]
Yeah. We call it be scared. You got to be scared. You have to be frighten, all
right. You know when you run to mommy thats the first [unclear] , right, its
because you are scared, because something is hurting you, all right. So the first
requirement of refuge is something bad, something that you are afraid of. In
Buddhism is what? Suffering, its the very fact of life, okay, and we talked about
it many times. You can say what you want, you can try to find who you want
but no one is really happy in this life, all right. Everyone is suffering. Your
relationships fall about; you get sick; you get old; there is nothing to look
forward to, you know. First you cant get a job, then you get the job, then you
dont like the job [laughter] right? And then even if you like the job, you lose it.
{[unclear]} etc. you know there is no happy ending in this life. Some people
realize that at fifteen, some people realize it when they are twenty, some people
realize it at forty, almost everybody who makes it sixty or seventy realizes it.
Its messed up, okay. Your body itself is a time bomb. Its just waiting for

something to go wrong. Dr [unclear], dharmas doctor says, health is an

accident. He said that. Its temporary balance that three things that arent
suppose to be balance and it will go out of it should go out of wag, you should
get sick and get old. There is no there is no .. I mean you have to be crazy not
to notice it as a certain point. You have relationships, theyre always messed up.
Your body its not your fault, its the nature of the its the nature of the
thing. Its nature of thing. Even if you have a perfect relationship, one of you
die. And the other one is lonely, okay. [laughs] No thats the only way its
going to happen, there is no other ending. I mean, tell me another ending.
[student]
No, its lousy. There is no other I mean face it, be fine(?), you know be
truthful about it. There is no other way out. Every job you ever did, you will
lose. Everything healthy about you, youll get sick. Everything you love, will go
away. And thats life. Thats true. I love Buddhism for that reason, you know,
no one can .. its a silent room, no one say but [laughs, laughter]
[student]
So whats the second thing you need for refuge?
[student]
No. What happens when you running to mommy? I mean two things going on,
fear and ..??
[student: protection?]
Yeah you think she can help you. You think she has some ability to do
somethint for you. You dont go running to little sister. You go running to
mommy cos she can fix things.
[student]
You have to have some kind of shelter, protection. You believe that the person
or the thing has protection, the power to protect you. So when you sick, who do
you call? You call a doctor. The sickness is the pain and the doctor is the object
of refuge because you believe he can fix you and when someone steals
something from you, mugs you, you go to the police because you have that bad

experience and you have some thing can you believe that that object can help
you. When you have a complain with your landlord you go to the court because
you believe that the judge or the court can help you and .. and its a bad
experience. So basically protection or refuge consist of a bad experience and
then going to somebody that you believe has the power to help you.
And we are going to talk about the three things that the Buddhist goes to refuge
for. So, by te way, I I within thirty seconds I [unclear] cancel all the refuges
of the world, forget it. You know what I mean? What is there? Who can protect
you, you know, nothing. None o fhte normal things that people think. Your
money cant help you. Howard Hughes who is that River Phoenix, right?
Hes rich, why didnt he just why did he die in front of night club at [unclear]
25-30 years old, what is that? Money cant help you. Health and youth and fame
cant help you. Intelligence cant help you per se. No police can help you; no
doctor can help you. When your time to die, no doctor can do anything. There
is no none of the objects money, emotional comfort of your friends, nothing
can help, nothing will help. There is no refuge in the world. . there just is not.
Thats just in itself [unclear] good reason to become a Buddhist and realizing
that is what makes you a Buddhist.
So we say the Three Jeweo, Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, okay.
The first refuge is Buddha. The refuge of Buddha, and I am going to quote from
the book, you get to read the back, there are seven pages in the back, you read
the English as your homework as part of your homework, thats your reading
assignment
[cut]
side B
There is famous line {[unclear]} its the opening of the logic book, written about
fifteen centuries ago. And it says, it says .. its about taking refuge in a person
who has satisfied both needs. What are both of the needs? Your needs and
other peoples needs, okay. Thats what both needs mean. Everything you need
and everything other people need. Very famous idea in Buddhism. You are
working for both supposedly.
[student: when you say, you, you mean your own?}
Yeah you are trying to get what you yourself need and you are trying to get
what other people need. The Buddha supposedly has gotten everything that
everybody needs. Hes gotten what he needs and hes gotten what other people

needs. Is that true? We have big debates in the monastery. Obviously Hes
achieved His own needs. Hes got His own needs still. Hes a Buddha, Hes
enligthened. He has no more problem. He has no more suffering. He has a
different kind of body. It looks like diamond. He has no suffering anymore. He
lives in a paradise, permanently. So He has fulfillned His own need. But what
about what about my needs? My needs are so unfilled, no? Thats a big
debate in the monastery. The Buddha has filled our needs. Thats a very
interesting idea.
[student]
Its not like that so much as well think about it, cook it. Well talk about it.
Lets talk about it next week. Is it true that the Buddha has filled all your needs,
the day He became a Buddha? Thats the question. But thats the definition of
the Buddha, of the Buddha, right?
[student]
Okay, Buddha by Himself is no use to you, okay. Okay, so some guy is perfect,
who care? If He cant come and see teach you there is no point to it. So the
second jewel is Dharma Jewel, okay, Dharma means the teaching, the teaching.
The Buddha is useless if He doesnt say anything to us, in words that we can
understand. These are the teachings. There are two kinds of teachings, one is
the teachings in the book and the teachings that the teachers say, and the other
teaching is the teachings in peoples heart, in peoples mind. In fact Asangas
brother, Vasabhandu, we spoke about the two twins, at the end of his great
book, he talks about when the teachings will die in the world, he gives the date.
I mean, even the Buddhas teaching is impermanent. He says, on such and such
a time, the books will disappear. Such and such a time, no one will ever have
these thoughts anymore, and the Buddhas teaching will be dead.
[student: you said the teachings in peoples heart, you mean they embody the
teachings or they ]
No I am about the describe it, okay. There are two types and you have to know
them. And I will this is the [unclear] definition of the Dharma Jewel, and it
says, the Dharma Jewel, whats the difference between dharma and Dharma
Jewel? Dharma Jewel is the one you are going for protection. And it says, the
enlightened side of truth, the pure side of truth, as a cessation or as a path, and
we have to talk about those. As a cessation .. yeah its in the book and you will

get it.
Okay, what does mean? It means you can divide everything in the world into
suffering or the enlightened side of the world. There are Four Noble Truths, we
wont go into it but basically every object in the world is either pain, or they way
to get of pain. There is only two two choices. On the good side of things, the
side thats without pain, there are two kinds. One is the path and one is
cessation.
What is a path?
[student]
What are the three principle path?
[student]
renunciation, what is renunciation, roughly.
You can if when you get
renunciation, when you know you have renunciation.
[student]
When you constantly obsess with getting out of this lousy kind of life. Okay, its
renunciation. That .. that idea, that thought is the path. Right? Second path?
[student: one who [unclear] free all sentient beings from the suffering]
By becoming the Buddha. And then third path.
[student]
Yeah, mainly emptiness, okay. Those are the three great paths. Those are
Dharma. Thats what the Dharma Jewel is. Any path is the Dharma Jewel,
mainly the ones that lead you out of those three. Those are the Dharma
Jewel.
So what is the real protection? Is it some guy? Is it the Buddha?
[student]
Yeah, its the idea. Thats the real protection. Thats the only thing that can really
help you and that makes good sense, you know, the poor people in the world
struggling with with these beliefs that they to take refuge in some guy that

they will never, he can never do anything for them but he could do everything
for them if he wanted to do everything for them or he doesnt do anything for
them and they are in pain and the guy never comes or who is he, they dont
know or what. Its not a refuge. Refuge means those paths to be good, to be
moral is refuge. It will protect you.
[student]
Yeah you could say that, with the understanding that if you are good you wont
suffer. That is the refuge. Thats the real refuge. That is the real refuge. The ten
commandments if you want to call it.
[student]
Oh no, they have, they have. But I dont know how many people will say, you
know, I bow down and pray to goodness [laughs] you know, thats true. Thats
correct. Thats refuge. If you are not good, you wont get refuge, thats the
difference. You cant be bad and have a refuge at the same time, then the refuge
doesnt work, because the refuge is being good. Is being moral.
[student: but a person may think they are good, you know, they even, you
know, say, oh I am very sensitive and I am very I feel so bad when I see
people suffering and then hurt other people, so .. you know what I mean?
Its a mix karma. The desire to help people and feeling upset about pain of other
people, is the goodness and then acting bad after that is badness, they are
separate things. There is a kind of ignorance. In India there was a religion that
believed that we should meditate on reaching heaven and then you should stab
youself with a knife, kill yourself and then you go to heaven. The Buddhist
believe that from the point of view of the motivation, is a virtue; from the point
of the deed is a very deed to kill yourself. So thats mix, you have to in
morality you have to separate things, you know, but no time, no time. Lets go.
So thats the first kind of Dharma Jewel is actually those ideas in your mind. We
call them path. Path doesnt mean, you know, like [unclear], thank goodness. It
means [laughs] it means those ideas can protect you, all right. And the other
kind of Dharma is call cessation. What is cessation?
Cessation is a very difficult idea. It means when something has stopped
permanently in you.
Thats what cessation means, you get this word in
Buddhism, nobody knows what it really means. Its the second half of the
Dharma Jewel.

[student]
Stop inside you anger at your boss. No, the day that you realize, the day that
you realize that there is that the boss that you are getting at is your own
problems, you created it, its your fault hundred percent your fault, you made
him, you created him and that every second of anger at him is creating a future
one. The day that you finally realize that and and then you are not angry any
more now because youre controlling yourself, because its crazy to be angry
cos its going to get you gonna meet him again. When you .. when you
finally realize that, by the way, that's realizing his emptiness, you have a
cessation for anger. You cannot angry again, its impossible. Its like burning
your finger with a match, you know, you stand and say, oh thats stupid, now
Ive figured out the fire hurts my finger and you just wont do anymore.
Yeah, by the way, it dont have to be permanent but the best ones are. Its a
long story. All cessations are unchanging. They may end. I cant explain it now,
okay. [laughs]
Cessation means the stopping of that quality in you.
[student]
Oh when you stop all of them permanently thats nirvana.
[student: oh you can stop them one by one?]
Oh sure you have to. You have to.
[student]
Yeah you can but thats not a real cessation, I mean, a true cessation
[student]
Only wisdom can.
[student]
Only wisdom can.
[student]

Thats a long story. Generally you can say its permanent.

permanent. In nirvana the cessation is permanent.

And nirvana is

[student]
You can have a cessation thats not permament. If you have cessation that ends,
but generally if you think of them its not _?_, for example if you reach a point
where you dont believe in Santa Claus anymore thats the cessation of your
belief in Santa Claus, you see what Im saying? Thats a cessation. Is it a virtue?
No. Is that a big deal? No. But you stopped believing
[student]
But that is a cessation. Its an ending of an emotion within you, for example.
There are many other kinds. The ending of ignorance is a huge [unclear]
Anyway thats a Dharma Jewel. What are you working for? What are taking
refuge in, you know, whats your protection? If you can end anger in your
heart, thats protection. Thats and doesnt that make sense, I mean, doesnt
your instinct tell you, oh yeah, now you are talking something good. They use
to say I had to go and bow down three times and say, I take refuge in Buddha,
Dharma, Sangha, I dont know where this guy is, I dont know who is the
Sangha, where is the Dharma, you know. The books are going to help me, you
know, what is it? Its the actually attitude and actual ending of the wrong things
inside you because of that, thats the protection, thats whay protect you.
[student]
It would be abnormal but it would be enlightened. [laughs]
[student]
Well talk abou it. Basically if I understood the true causes of why you ever came
to burn my house down and why you exist in my life, no I wouldnt be angry. It
will hurt me but I wouldnt be angry. Its a long story. Okay
Sangha. Whats the Sangha Jewel. Sangha is very bad, confusing word. There
are some dharma groups that call any kind of group of students sangha. Thats a
nice concept but they are communities. Sangha means coming together. {sang
gha}
means coming together but its not what sangha means.
Sangha

technically means a group of quarrum of monks, okay. And thats at least

five, to do certain rituals but its not even that. Even thats not the real Sangha.
The real Sangha is any person who has percieved emptiness directly. Its the
Sangha Jewel. Okay. Thats the one who can help you.
[student: with or without bodhicitta?]
Yeah. Basically you become by the way, if you could see emptiness directly,
how many Jewels do you become? How many shelter do you become? Yeah,
automatically you are two, you are two. People are taking refuge to you then.
Okay, because you are Sangha Jewel, you have you did perceive emptiness
directly and you have Dharma in your mind. You have the cessation of what?
Ignorance, okay, I mean not the ultimate cessation of ignorance but you put a
big hole in it. In Buddhism they say {[unclear]} You ripped it. You tore the
[unclear] of ignorance, the reality.
[student]
Oh no, in .. in well talk about it next week. There is real Sangha and an
apparent sangha. And youll see it in your reading, by the way the reading that
youre goingt to be asked to do, is very confusing and very difficult, cook it. Its
only if you take the Tibetan out of it, its three pages. Meditate on it. Read it
over and over again. Think about it. Its very difficult. I took out the easiest
part from the book, okay, all right, its difficult especially the first two
paragraphs which we are not even going to talk about, right now. They are
very difficult but just cook it, you know, this is the way you learn. In Buddhism
you dont learn everything at once. You feel uncomfortable, it hurts, Sakya
Pandita says, {[unclear]} means wise people suffer while they learn. My teacher
taught this first, why people suffer while they learn {[unclear]} If you want to be
comfortable, forget about becoming wise. {[unclear]} People who are attached
to small pleasures, dont get bigs ones. [laughs] all right.
Let me see Ive covered all the homework.
[student]
All right, last thing, whats an ultimate refuge? And its define in the book as,
any refuge where the journey along the path has reached its final goal. Ultimate
refuge, ultimate protection. Any refuge where the path the journey along the
path has reached its final goal.

[student]
Yeah, I have to say it that way, why, because it doesnt refer only to a person. I
cant say the person whos reached the final goal. The process what it means
it a Buddha or something about a Buddha, okay, thats the real shelter. Thats
the only ultimate shelter. So thats all tongith. Its very .. now you are in
youve passed the lam rim world, okay. You are now into the first course was
the easy one, okay. Now now if you really want to learn this is it, and it is
difficult, okay, and it is precise. And its and its and it takes some thinking.
Dont give up. Dont think its not worth it. There are very few people who can
go through these books. There are very few Tibetans who can go through these
books. But if you go through them, its incredible. Then when you meditate,
something will happen because you know precisely what you are doing.
So I repeat, okay, what are we talking about? Protection, protection. From
what? I mean, what are afraid of, to go to mommy? Suffering, okay. There is
nobody in this room who doesnt have it. I translated for Dr [unclear] many
years ago and he at the end of the lecture he said, anybody whos got a
medical problem, please see me afterwards, nobody left. [laughs] Anybody who
has a serious medical problem see me afterwards. Nobody left. And I was
shock, you know I said, boy they look like normal people but everyones got
something with them. This .. its suffering, if youre not sick now, youre gonna
be, okay. If you are not old now, you will be. If your joints and all your bones
dont hurt now, dont worry, its coming. [laughs, laughter] if you are happy in
your job, dont worry, you know, doesnt arse-hole will come along and ruin
your day, I swear, this is the nature of this life. There is no no happiness.
{korwa ..} on the tip of the needle of this life, there is no [unclear], thats
famous Buddhist there is no happiness. I mean there are brief time when you
say things are going pretty well and [unclear] collapse again, okay [laughs]
Dont worry its not your fault. Its a nature of this world. No ones happy.
Okay, unless they are a saint, unless they are really understanding religion well.
The other people are dont worry, no one who looks happy is really happy,
okay [laughs] its not. If you are not understadning these things, if you are not
understanding the spirit of things then you wont be happy, its impossible,
because of the nature of life, not because of you. And what can help you is only
those .. actually this is the only direct help, is the Dharma, its those attitude in
your heart. You know when you really care for other people, when you really
understand the trouble that you are in, when you really see that your boss that
you hate is coming from you. Then thats protection, then you can stop the
suffering. There is no other way. You actually have no choice but to go for

refuge
[student: is the Dharma Jewel is having these teachings in your heart?]
The real Dharma Jewel is the attitude, the path and I gave you three paths, Laura
gave you three paths and the cessation. Meaning the end of anger in your heart,
in your mind, we say in your mental stream, whatever you want to say. Youll
know it when you got it. All right?
Thats all. So I wil give you some homework. I dont think that covered
everything on the homework. And you have to do the whole thing. Read the
whole think carefully. I I .. sometimes when I put two or more questions in
one question, people answer the first part and dont answer the rest. Please read
the whole question, all right. And[unclear] back, I made a rule I wouldnt but I
had to.
This is due next week. Your grade is, I think, its two thirds or three quarters
from the class work [unclear] class work what you do every week in a regular
basis. And then the final is like a quarter.
Please be on time and Ill try to end [unclear] .
Please come on time and well try to well try to stop on time. And dont if
you feel confuse, [unclear] too much for you, its a good sign, it means you are
learning something, okay. It means, if I sat here and said something you already
knew youd feel quite comfortable and you wont be learning anything.
[student]
Why we have to say process because like the knowledge in a Buddhas heart is
not the person [unclear] but it is a thing which is [unclear].
[student]
[cut]

TYPING ONE OF CLASS TWO:

Aci Course 2- Buddhist Refuge
Class Two- Refuge - Five Divisions/
Eight Qualities of a Buddha.
11-8-93
Transcribed by Linda Salmon
[Prayer:Short Mandala Offering]
{Prayer: Bodhichitta prayer three times]
[Cut]
[Student: Is there any intellectual involvement?]
It could be intellectual. Directness is impure, different.
[Student: Any perception of emptiness?]
Yes, it says realization of emptiness.
[Student: Any realization ]
Actually implies that it is pretty accurate.
[Student: This is]
I would [laughs]. We know okay. Have a seat. Well talk afterafterwards
okay, but you can absorb as much as
[Student: So can you tell the one that correct thing is?]
Yeah, I said yesterday, I said it was last time it was the direct perception of
emptiness mixed with love, but now Im saying its just the perception of
emptiness with love and it doesnt have to be direct and it doesnt have to be in
meditation, it could just thinking.
[Student: Intellectual?]

Yes, it can be that, can be that.

Just hold it and listen [laughs] okay. All right, all right last time we talked about
the three refuges, sometimes they are called the three places of refuge, the Three
Jewels. The difference between the jewels and the things themselves, like the
Dharma Jewel and the dharma, is not the same thing. Right. I mean this is
dharma, the books are dharma, they are not the Dharma Jewel. Why? The
dharma jewel can only be two things.
[Student: Its a movement inside your mind]
Yeah, either a path, which is the thought, which is an attitude or a cessation
which is the ending of some bad quality in your mental stream forever. So
[student: or both] yeah, although somebody was me in New Jersey, with pretty
good debate. How can you have both? How can one thing be both? Very
difficult. So anyway, one is an absence, one is a mental, but I am not going to get
into that. Anyway, there is a difference between the jewel and and the thing
itself like the dharma and the dharma jewel. So we talked about the things you
that you go to refuge to. Now today we are going to talk about what it is to go
for refuge. What is going for refuge, okay? You hear it a lot in a, you know
every, every dharma teacher whoever comes to New York for those two day
lightening visits you know. They say, Oh take refuge, take refuge. And
everybody goes, I take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha Okay your
name is Yeshe Kundun, bye [laughs]. Ah okay the ahtaking refuge is not the
words of taking refuge. There is a vow of taking refuge that is not taking
refuge. That is what you call in name only is taking refuge, its a kind of taking
refuge but it is not the taking refuge. Its not the real taking refuge. We call it
nominal taking refuge. This is the real taking refuge; this is the real definition of
taking refuge here.
So try repeat okay. {Yul}[Repeat], {shen-la}[repeat], {rang-tob-kyi}[repeat]
{rewa}[repeat], {chaway}[repeat], {sempa}[repeat], {khamdrey}[repeat], {tsenyi}
[repeat] okay.
Thats the real meaning of, of what it is to take refuge, okay. Now Ill explain it.
{Yul} means an object, all right. {Yul} means an object, all right, {yul}.
{Shen} means another, something other okay.
{La} means to.

[Student: too] T..o. Okay.

[Student: la means to?]
Yeah, t..o. Tibetan is easy, when learn Tibetan you find out that {la} means to,
for, on, at, in, for the length of, for the duration, all of those are one word in
Tibetan. {La} {Rang} means itself.
{Tok} means power.
What are {top kye men}? What do you, what do you guess is the elixwhat you
call it, {top kye men} the herb for generating strength. What, what do you think
that is a translation for? {Top kye men}
[Student: ginseng, ginseng]
Vitamins. Thats the Tibetans, thats their word for vitamins. {top, top} is what
you get from vitamins.
{Top kye, kye} means of. Im sorry by, by.
{Rewa} means hope, hope.
[Student: hope, hope]
Hope, theres a saying in Tibetan, a famous saying {rewa [unclear]}, Once you
put once you get your get your hopes up for something, you never get
it [laughing]
{Rewa} hope.
{Chaway} means to to put all put all your hopes into something, to put all your
hopes in something.
And {sempa} means, {sempa} is a very difficult word to translate. It means
anytime the mind moves, any movement of the mind, anytime the mind goes
kik. I call it movement of the mind, but it sounds too much like bowel
movements.
[Students: laughing]
[Laughing] That is maybe, you know, I mean you, you think about it, I, I, it is
close to thought but you see, I almost used the word thought, in one case I used
the word thought and youll see but I, I, but not all {sempas} are thoughts.
Thought implies a mental verbalisation, I thought to myself, I better get out of
here, but {sempa} can just like a moment of anger is {sempa} you know
anytime the mind does anything, thats {sempa}. So it doesnt have to be
conceptual, so thats a hard thing to translate. Some people have made up a

word mentation; I dont like it too much. Its not English okay, all right
{sempa}. {Khamdro, khamdro} means going for refuge. {Kham} means refuge,
{drey} means going. {Khamdro}
[Student: Thats a y at the end?]
Yeah, {khamdrey}, the y makes it of. Its like apostrophe s that y is
apostrophe s like Johns. [Student: going for refuge] Yeah going for refuges.
{Tsenyi} definition {tsenyi} means definition. You are now {tsenyi-pas}. {Tsenyipa} means a monk in a monastery who isnt just doing easy things anymore, he
has decided to become a logician. [Laughing] {Tsenyi-pas} I mean monks who
go in through the deep studies they call them the name they call them are
tsenyi-pas} they, they are now working in the real of definition, precision, they
areso into that, I hope you like it
[Students: laughing] Thats the way its gonna be. Thats my training and
thats what Im, Im [Student: {tsenyi} means definition] Yeah, {tsenyi} means
definition. So now well translate, okay. Ah, you can save that thought for now,
but thoughtin Tibetan you translate backwards, okay. The Tibetan order and
the English order are completely backwards. That thought on which you put all
your hopes in another objectandand I dont know who to say it in English
very well, but that thought should be of its own power and well talk about that,
of its own power. It goes byon its own power and Ill explain it, youll never
figure it out. [Laughing] I went and asked my Lama to make sure I had it.
[Student: what would that third one be?] It hasits on its own power and well
talk about that. Well talk about that. [Student: so youre saying that thought
which has its own power] That thought which of its own power puts all its
hopes into some other object. Thats what it is to go to refuge. [Student: so we
can scratch out in which you put all and replace it withanother student:
which puts [laughter] Yeah, yeah, yeahno
[Student: on its own power] Theres atheres a nicetheres a nice definition in
your in your reading at the back of the notebook. So you know theres a clean
definition back there. Im giving you the done it [Student: yeah, what I mean I
got test to take and stuff and I want to make sure I get it right]
That thought which of its own power puts all its hopes in another object is
definition of going for refuge and in the monastery you would be like
{sho} Youd have toyoull have this class in the morning and by af and
by evening youd be expected to debate on it for like four hours and then you

wouldnt forget it for your whole life. [Student: do they take notes or is it] Ah,
they dont take notes. [Student: no!]
Theythey read the book with the teacher and then they go home and think
about it and then in the evening you have to debate it for maybe four, five, six
hours. Then you never forget it after that you know, if you debated it, you
know
You dont forget it easily. It s a very good system. You memorise the root text
before you go to class in the morning. They might memorise the whole book.
Okay so, thats what it is to go for refuge. Thats what it means to go for refuge.
{Yul shenla} means some other person or thing outside of yourself. Obviously,
when you want protection you go for protection other than yourself. You are
going to something else. [Student: this is ah]
The reason why you go for protection is because you dont have the power. The
reason you are taking protaking shelter is that you is that youre going to
somebody else for help because you dont have the necessary power or you
wouldnt have to go for shelter. Youd could stand there and fight whatever it is
yourself. And thats refuge. Thats the idearefuge means running away to
something that can help you. [Student: Well, thats going for refuge as to
opposed to having refuge.]
Yeah this the definition of going for refuge. We talked about refuge already.
We already talked about what you run to. We talked about mummy. Now
we are talking about what it is to run to mummy. What does it mean to run to
mummy? Ah, so this is going for refuge. {Rang} Well skip {rang tob-kyi.
Rewa chaway sempa} means to put all your hopes in that object. All your hopes.
And that implies some kind of commitment to that object. You really believe
that that object has the power to help you. Total conviction that that object can
help you. And thats why you go to thatthats why you run to that object. So
I think we mentioned it last time that there are two things going on when you
go for refuge. Kylie gimme one. Theres two, what they call two elements in
refuge, there has to be two things present for refuge to take place. Why you run
to mummy?
[Student: because youre afraid] Yeah, you gotta be afraid. Fear is the first
requirement. First requirement is fear. Youre afraid of something, thats why
youre running for protection- and then what can you guess the second part that
you must have. [Student: that that object, that that, object has the power
[Studentthe belief fear]

The belief that that object can help you. The reason you run to mummy and you
dont run to your sister is mummys is big and mummy has authority and
mummy can do something, you know. She can do something about it. Little
sister cant help you. You dont run to little sister, you run to mummy. So
theres are two things going on when you take refuge. The first is included here.
When I say {Yul Shinla} some other object it means someone that Isomeone
outside of myself, Im afraid. When I say {rewa chaway sempa} I believe, I
believe that object has some power to help me. There has to be two things
going on when you take refuge.
[Student: Thats not what we are talking here.] Ah, tell me. [Student: Youyou
asked me the difference between the object of refuge and going for refuge.]
Mmmmmmummy and going to mummy. Tonight we are only talking about
going to mummy. Last week we talked about mummy
[Student: But now in the verb] Going for refuge, goingtaking refuge. Going
for protection. Therere twothats why this week we split the class into two
parts. The first class was all about Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, jewels. What
what is the object of refuge? They call object of refuge or place that you go for
protection. We finished that. Now what is it you for you to go there. You
know, what have you in youre mind to go there. When they say have refuge it
means you have this state of mind. And that is that state of mind. Thatthat is
what refuge is. It is not the words of {Ayatah, Sangye chdam tsokyi ch
namla}
[Student: have refuge, the verb or have refuge the noun?] When you say have
refuge what you mean is taking refuge. People say do have refuge, are you
taking refuge you see which means are you running to mummy. Refuge is
there; the refuges are there, Buddhas there, Dharmas there, Sanghas there.
They are like ah theres a joke in Tibetan in the Lam Rim. Theyre like a big
what do you call it out in a picnic ground when theres a big ah, no walls just a
roof [Student: Pavilion?]
Yeah, pavilion, yeah so you standing in the pouring rain and the pavilion is over
there and you stand in the rain and you go pavilion, pavilion, pavilion,
pavilion [laughing]. So thats like most people, most Buddhists are like hat like
{sangye chodam tsokyi cho nam la} you and walking under the pavilion out of
the rain is going for refuge. Thats the mind. Its the {sangye chdam tsokyi ch
nam la} you have to you have to say that, but you have to have that thought

going on at the same time. So what does it mean? By the way, this is not the
definition of Buddhism refuge, going for refuge, to a Buddhist refuge. This is just
a general definition of going for refuge and that can be divided into two kinds,
One is going to refuge to normal things and the other is going for refuge to
ultimate things. So people in the world we all, all day got to refuge too, we take
refuge all day in normal things.
[Student: Thats the problem, people take refuge all the time] Yeah, no its for
this [Student: the object you take refuge] This is not the goal. This is the
definition of taking refuge, I not the definition of taking Buddhist refuge.
[Student: taking actual refuge] [Student: Any refuge]
This is just any refuge. This is what it is. We take refuge all day. You take
refuge, anything you think that can help you; you are taking refuge in all day
long. I think it is important to understand; all day long, you are taking refuge.
The reason you get out of bed is that you go to work, because you think money
is a refuge and it is in a sense because it pays your rent, it feeds you. That is a
refuge and if you did not have {rewa chaway sempa}, if didnt believe it could
help you, you wouldnt get up and go to work, its not fun, right? [Laughing]
Most times. [Student: Its funny though.]
Thats why they pay you. They have to get you to come. Thats {rewa chaway
sempa}. Thatsyou have thator you take refuge in say a coat, you have a
coat. You take refuge in your house. You take refuge in your friends, your wife
or your friends or your children or your career or your even your own self,
your opinion, these are all refuges.
[Student: Would you take refuge by not taking refuge in Dharma which is a lot
of people [unclear]because if you use that to take refuge in Dharma you are
going to get yourself in trouble] Yeah, all those objects that I talked about, all of
them, all of the reason you get up in the morning and all the reason why you are
walking around the street and all the reason why you go to work, all the reason
you meet your friends, all the reason you do anything, is worldly refuge. Youre
taking refuge. Every action you do ishas some motivation to get something,
or you wouldnt do it.
[Student: Presumably, everything youre doing is going away from suffering
and toward something good. Thats what you think.] Every object you put
your hopes in is temporary, it cant help you, it will not help you and we just live
like fools. Our whole day is like foolish. None of the things that we work for

can help us. None of the things we get up out of bed for. You get money by
going to work it is not because you got out of bed to get the money. From
what? [Student: Its karma!! [Laughing, laughter]]that you gain from. We
have a whole wrong idea of why things are happening. That one kind of
ignorance. That is not the ultimate ignorance, but its ah pretty heavy, very thick
ignorance that we have. We areeverything we do is mistaken, you know. We
think that through effort and waking up doing blah, blah, blah, we are going to
get money. Some people do it, some people dont so it is not a cause.
[Student: So if wed stayed in bed tomorrow we would get the money anyway.]
You would, you could, if you were virtuous. Some people just goof off in the
morning and it falls down on them. You could see it in the world. Some people
work, I mean go to India and watch the people work in the rice fields. They are
working much harder than any of us and they are starving. There is no relation.
[Student: But those could be national karmas or larger karmas right?] Right
[Those are what they are.] It is not related to how hard you work. It is not
related to how intelligent you are. There are stupid people who are poor; there
are stupid people that are rich. It is not a cause, it is not a cause. I always say,
people got in an airplane and the stewardess says, Your seat number is 12B. By
the way, we dont understand why this plane runs and it might fall down. Dont
mind. [Laughing, laughter] It works some of the time, some of the time it falls
down.
But your whole life is like that you believe that going to work is going to get you
money, but sometimes it doesnt, s thats is not the cause of you getting to work,
thats not the cause of the work, its crazy, its ignorance. [Student: So, thats
very funny.] Okay thats going for refuge. Yeah its [unclear] Im going to.
[Laughter] [Student: unclear Buddhist refuge]
They call it exceptional refuge, special refuge. [Student: Thats Buddhist refuge.]
Thats Buddhist. Thats where you go for a real refuge. What do you go to
refuge to? They call it exceptional refuge. Were gotta be careful of our words,
because ultimate has a different meaning, direct has a different meaning.
[Student: Thats just Buddhist refuge.] You can call it exceptional refuge.
[Student: Exceptional refuge is always Buddhist refuge?] Yeah what they call
special refuge or exceptional refuge. [Student: It going for refuge in] those
three jewels[Student: Is the other one [unclear] what we were talking about

Yeah those are all ordinary refuges. When you read the Tibetan text theyll say
going to refuge to worldly spirits, which exist, and you can propitiate them and
you can appease them and you can a get a littlesometimes theyll help you.
That was the example in Tibet and alsobut this definition fits all our daily
activities. Basically that. Okay thats what the definition of going for refuge is. If
you supply the words. Basically if you plug in the word three jewels, then you
have the definition for Buddhist refuge, exceptional refuge and we dont do that.
All right now. [Cut]
Say {kyebu}[repeat] {chung}[repeat] {dring}[repeat]{chenpo} [repeat] {sum}
[repeat] {kyebu}[repeat] {chung}[repeat] {dring}[repeat]{chenpo} [repeat] {sum}
[repeat].
{Kyebu} means person. Person. In Buddhism that can mean an animal also, but
not in this case. [Student: Can it mean anything else] No, not in this case.
[Student: Can it mean anything else?] No. [Student: Hell being?] Yeah, oh yeah.
[Student: Any being?] [Student: Sentient being or?] Sentient being, just
another word for being but anyway. Im trying to say the person in Buddhism is
not eliminated towards a human, a dog is a person too. Long story.
{Chung} means small. In Tibetan, how they say small? {Chung, chung} {Dring}
you had last class. It was one of the three kinds of sutras. Do you remember?
Middle one okay. {Dring} means middle, medium. {Chenpo} you know.
{Chenpo} means big. {Sum} means three. These are three levels of practitioners.
They are very famous. They are in the Lam Rim and they arewe are going to
talk about five different kinds of refuge, five different kinds of going for refuge
and these are the first two. {Kyebu chung} means little person, medium person
and a big person. You can call it, if you are writing a book you call it practitioner
of the advanced scope, [laughing], but think of it as little person. Little person
means the person with the middle motivation for a Buddhist; he has the
minimum thought you can have and still be a Buddhist. He has the smallest,
lowest motivation that a Buddhist can have and that he wants to get out of the
three lower births. He does not want to go to the three lower births. What are
they?
[Student: Hell being] animal, [student: animal] animal [student: hungry ghost]
and what we call preta or hungry ghost. Buddhism is not stupid; Buddhism
doesnt say you can see these two. Buddhism says you cant see these two right
now, if youre just a normal person. I cannot prove to you that these two exist
and the books say that over and over again. They do exist, the Buddha said they

exist; you can see them see them in certain states of meditation but I cant prove
it to you and cant show it to you right now so take it take it as the word of the
Buddha and doubt it okay, but at least you can see animals, animals, hungry
ghosts which are spirits we cant see. They live around us; we cant see them.
They have bodies, theyre very subtle bodies, we cant see those bodies.
Probably what Western people said theyd seen ghosts or spirits, probably
theyd seen something like that and then hell being which you can read about in
the western religions also. The descriptions of hell in the Abhidharmakhosha
and descriptions by Dante or the Christian writers are exactly the same. So it is
pretty interesting you know and I would tend to think that people in each
religion had seen them directly and described them. Some people struggle to
say that the Greeks met the Kashmiris that somehow this myth covered what
they say, Oh hell is just a metaphor, thats very wrong by the way. Its not a
metaphor, it exists.
[Student: Arent Buddhists believe that?
[unclear] and after years in the
monastery] Very wrong, very wrong. [Student: Tibetan monks I know believe
in itdont believe in hell.] They[unclear] I haventwell I mean
[Student: They believed in it until they went to the monastery and then after
years in the monastery that they began to disbelieve.] Not at all, not at all.
[Student: Im just repeating.]
No the great texts, Nagarjuna outlines hell in his Viveka, in 200 AD, the Buddha
describes hell in detail in his Jakata tales. The Abidharma, the third chapter
spends many pages on hell and it exists, it does exist and you know it exits
because you know about emptiness and you know the four principles of karma.
You can imagine that it exits. If those four principles of karma are true then a
perception of yourself hurting someone now could cause you to have a
perception much greater, you know, much more intense and much longer than
the hells according to the scriptures the life of a being in hell is very, very long,
extremely long.
[Student: Are hell beingssomething I noticed today while I was [unclear] one
of the questions of the heart [unlear] animals are born, mothers are born in a
particular way and so are humans. Do hell beings are they born in a same
way?]
Abidharma third chapter explain four kinds of birth, four kindsthere are four
ways of taking birth and one is called {dzute kyewa} which means you just

appear in that place like Padmasambhava was {dzute kyewa}. That is why he is
called Padmasambhava because he was born from a lotus. Some saints are born
from a lotus.
So [Student: the lotus born.]the hell isyou just appear there, and your
body has special qualities, you know. They can torture you and kill you and
then hell revive again and then they torture and kill you again. [Student: you
gotta to be a monk] No, in hell they dont have. Hell beings are depicted
[Student: someone is tortured you instead]
No, they exist and it is not funny. If you ever get a glimpse of it; it is terrible, its
horrible, its like just fire and much more painful than this fire on earth. They say
much more painful. [cut]
Theres a long discussion about what life you see and things like that. A very
long description, a good description and in fact when you reach the higher levels
of practice you need to know about that because you need to use it. Okay
{kyebu chung} for these people the lowest Buddhist motivation is to get yourself
out of those three rebirths. [Student: Its like the small scope.] Yeah small scope,
I like that word and thats whats in the text- smaller scope. [Student: Can you
say by extension also that in the not just the always be reborn as a human but at
least you know, a peaceful birth, they dont care so long as not in the human
realm]
No not only in the human, they can be higher than the human also but they do
not want to go to one of those three lower births, they will dothey are living
this life, their life in this world is dedicated not to being born there.
[Student: What makes you go being born in a lower realm?] Bad deeds, ten
bad deeds basically. Check the calender. [Laughing] I mean overthere are
eighty four thousand deeds. If you want, you want. [Laughter] [Student:
[Unclear]]
Morality. Do these and you dont go. Do themdont do them and you go.
[Laughing] [Student: [Unclear] foe destroyer]No, no this is just any person
whose[Student: What is wrong sex, Michael?] Theres lots of them. Theres
two pages about about sex here. [Student: Wont it be better if there was right
sex.]
[Student: Sure page.[laughing]]

You can check the calendar. Huh? This is the text of the calendar without the
calendar. You can take out the older ones there whatevers bothering you.
[Student: Thank you] [Student: But surely [unclear]] Thank you. Dont say Im
not kidding [Student everybody lies. Is everybody going to go to hell?]
According to scriptures ninety-nine point nine [unclear] will go to hell
[Student: Wow [unclear] Thats awfully [unclear]] Its not funny. [Students:
[unclear]]
I mean if theres good intentions to help, yes. I mean for example, there are nonBuddhists who commit suicide after doing a special prayer. In India, in ancient
India and they thought that was it actually a great bad deed but they thought
it was nirvana, thought it was how to get to nirvana but actually from the point
of view of your motivation that was a virtue. Yeah if your heart is in the right
place its the long way to not, not [unclear] well talk about it. So the bestest
motivation of the smallest level of practitioner. I went to a lecture in Arizona
and the Dalai Lama spoke in the day and some other people spoke at night and
after I came out something bothered me you know, something bothered me
about the lecture and I thought about it for a long time and I thought this was
not a Buddhist lecture. It didnt mention next life at all. Theyre talking about
how to be happy, well balanced, friendly you know. Just how to be kind of
cheery in this life and just occurred to me thats nice not Buddhism. The
minimum practice the minimum reason to go for refuge is concerned with
what is going to happen when you die. Thats minimum; if you dont have that
you are not a Buddhist.
[Student: Not Mahayana, all Buddhists..] No any Buddhist that is the minimum
attitude to be called a Buddhist. That why theres a joke in Tibetan or theres this
supposedly true story that there was this abbot of a major monastery up on the
throne and some humble monk had you know, the power to read his mind and
he said you know, that abbot is not a Buddhist; he is not motivated by this
minimum motivation. Yeah?
[Student: Then thats the minimum goal and the minimum motivation is fear
right?]
Right. [Student: Right. I mean the minimum goal is not to be born in the lower
realms, but the motivation for the minimum goal is fear of being born in the
lower realms.] Right and to do the right thing in this life after death and youre
young and you dont think that is such a relevant goal. Youd rather have
something that will make you happy and satisfied or even contemplative in this
life, its not the goal. You will get everything you wanted in this life as soon as

you get that. The deeds that you have to have to do to keep yourself out of hell
are exactly whats going to make you very happy in this life. Thats a side effect
they say it is like weeds when in the plant hay. I mean the scriptures say that.
You can get it, you can be happy in this life you will get it, but the motivation has
to be that I am working and I do not go down when I die and that assumes a lot.
That assumes a lot, you know, that assumes you understand how the mind
streams and that assumes that you even think theres a hell and dont truly have
that. But as you get older you develop it, so dont worry. The older people get it
the more they start to worry about what will happen after they die.
[Student: When you are young you feel strong and you do nothing like it]
Your mind is on the next ten years at the most, probably the next two months
normally, but ah [Student: I dont think that just when you get older I think
also when you get sick, really sick and you lose your physical power and that]
They call that {nyengjung kose} goosebump renunciation, it last about a week
after you get [unclear [laughter]] Nah it is a great effort and very difficult to take
refuge. It assumes a lot of knowledge it assumes a lot of thinking it assumes a
lot of observation of death in other people, older people and the people around
you. It is not easy. Its very difficult, it is not like taking refuge is easy and
bodhichitta is difficult, taking refuge is very difficult. Really, really becoming a
Buddhist is almost impossible. [Student: laughing] They say for example, in the
monks vowsI shouldnt say impossible
[Student: [laughing] good [Very discouraging!]] They say thatwe just
studied I just did vinaya for a month, the monksyou know that is one of our
last subjects and theywe reached this part where they say that if a monk takes
his vows for anything but renunciation they dont even stick [Student: You
mean stick?] They dont take form again, he doesnt get the vow. I mean he can
go around his whole life with the robes on, but he never got the vow. [Student:
They are not affecting his consciousness and his karma.] They never brewed in
his mental stream. [Student: So hes gaining the benefits of the vows.]
So then they theres this long debate about where we going to find five monks
to make new monks? [Laughing] Because it takes five monks to make a new
monk.
So where are we going to find five monks in the monastery? [Student: Why
does it take five monks to make a new monk? Dont you have to give your
vows] Its the ceremony has to be administered by five monks which is why
there is no nuns vow right now because it dropped under five and there wasnt

enough to get new nuns.

[Student: Maybe there nuns found.] Were checking, its being referred. In the
Tibetan tradition at present [Student: Why do you have to have five?]
Long storyten ways of taking the vows. [Unclear] [Student: Theres fear of
hell.]
and of deaths other two[Student: fear of going to lower realms, I would
say that is somewhat altered form motivates a lot of people from a lot of
religious backgrounds perhaps more in previous generations than]oh yeah,
they were, in that sense they were ahead of us. [Student: strong I wouldnt
say that would require a tremendous amount of knowledge. It was almost
superstitious, impulsive] Yeah well that, that wouldnt be very firm, wouldnt
be very strong. [Student: Oh, I think it was very strong indeed but it wasnt
intellectual it was very emotional] Maybe Id would say that would bewe call
that a {duljakstulpo} for thick headed disciples and better who study why hell is
very possible just based on what we have here knowing the principles of how
the mind works, studying the functions of the mind hell becomes extremely
plausible.
[Student: Isnt hell also false?] No much worse its a bad idea you know some
Buddhists in the west have said that oh hell is just a metaphor for depression.
No not [unclear] there is a place hell [unclear] [Student: That is like a super duper
depression, hot one day] 3838
{Dring} what is the motivation of the middle person the medium person?
[Student: Get out of [unclear]] Yeah he wants to get out of this form of life
altogether, he understands that it is doesnt matter if you are born in one of the
higher realms like a human realms; it is still suffering, he understands that even
this lives that we are living is the best in the dirty world in the samsara in the
suffering world is pain and nothing about this life is very nice, none of the
comforts you now will last period, none of the things you take comfort in will,
none of the things you work for, none of the things about your health or your
looks or your friends or your house or your parents or your family or your
children, none of them will last period. Theyll all go,
It is just suffering it is a temporary state. I translated for, did I tell you, for Yeshe
Dhnden, many years ago, twenty years ago, that is how these classes started
and he said that health is an accident. He said the four elements are going like
this and that sometimes the four balls up in the air are all spinning right but the
normal condition is that they dont last you know. The standard condition of a
human being is no use.

[Student: Suffering is actually permanent.] No, it can be stopped but we dont

have anything except suffering. The things we believe are comfort are actually
another kind of suffering. The most obvious fact about fact about those
comforts is that you lose them and if you dont think, so wait. Everything about
your appearance, everything about your health everything about your work,
everything about your intelligence, you will lose them.
[Student: How can that be stopped?] That is vy ve are haffing class! [Laughing,
laughter] No really, not kidding. [Student: As long as we are in this life, we will
be in samsara anyway] Not true, not true. [Student: So can we say that here is
the goal] By the way that is the big time, we are going for the big time, I am
not teaching this class so you go home feeling better or youre a better adjusted
person, you know, friendly and so forth. We are going for the big time. The
purpose of this class is that you dont undergo a normal death and that you no
longer have any kind of suffering. Thats the minimum of purpose of this class.
It is not that you, you know that youre, somehow your words are little nicer or
you knowno! Sure you got to get old and die. I met this great Korean
Japanese master, they said, This is Jog Gwuang Gu you know. He was able to
sit out in the snow for three days and I looked at him, I waiting, I bought a
flower and waited at the airport for him and he came off the airplane and he died
the next year. He was very old and he was suffering. [Student: Frozen.] Nah,
nah he was suffering badly and I said, I thought to myself, what does it matter if
he sat out in the snow for three days. If hes got old, Im not interested in that.
[Student: Well, its an achievement well whether its an old person or the
ultimate. Its still an achievement.] Who cares if you die, who cares if you put
your body in the snow if your body gets old and wrinkled and dies. Who cares?
Anyway[Student: It was something that was supposed to happen in his mind
and [unclear]] [Student...one nice short Tibetan person] Whats that middle
person whose motivation is to get out of all forms of suffering life? [Student: Its
renunciation for cyclic existence.] Yeah what we studied in the first[Student
and motivation and the goal is nirvana, right?] Well, at minimum he wants to get
outhe can achieve for Buddhahood, thats okay. [Student: Well the satisfaction
of renunciation of cyclic existence doesnt necessarily have you Buddhahood.]
No. Okay.
{Chenpo} whats the big person after that, [Student: Can I ask you a question
about this, about the middle, I get somewhat confused because the idea of, you
know, that you dont have the idea of Mahayana motivation and yet you can

escape samsara but you can only escape samsara as a Buddha.] I used to worry
about that myself I used to worry about that a lot. I used to think to myself,
how could you get the virtue to perceive emptiness, which is necessary to get
nirvana, if you dont love people. Doesnt that virtue loving they have
compassion in the Hinayana scriptures. The Abhidharma teaches compassion.
Its not the compassion that is taught inbut its certainly that they have love,
they have loving kindness and they have compassion. [Student: Even, even
beyond that though I was thinking I thought only attaining Buddhahood really
gets you out of samsara and not Arhat or whatever.] Oh, Arhat is the end of
samsara. [Student: It is, even if youre not a Buddha.] Right. [Student: Oh.]
[Student: To be fair this is a Mahayana description here, presumably the
Hinayana will only have the two, first two persons.] Ah, it is a big debate.
[Student: Well, presumably yes.] Its a big debate, a big debate. Its a big debate,
it is not easily found, not like they dont accept on that.
{Chenpo, chenpo} means great and what is the, what is the motivation of the
third person? What do you guess? [Student: To get out cyclic existence for the
benefit of all living beings] and to take everybody else with it. He, he doesnt
want anybody else to suffer. It goes beyond, it goes beyond the three lower
realms for himself, it goes beyond the three upper realms for himself, it goes out
to all realms, all beings.
He wants all beings to get out of all suffering. That is why he is going for refuge.
[Student: I raise one point. Does he want to leave cyclic existence for all
persons]?
That is beautiful, I love it. That was the next thing. Nice. That was the next
point.
She said that, what she is basically saying is that does {chenpo} also have the
motivation of {Chung en dring}? Is he interested in getting his own rear end out
of the lower three births, is he interested in getting himself out of theall six
kinds births on top of wanting everyone else out. Yes, and that is why we call,
and youll see it in your text, the motivation which is shared with lower people.
A person whose has reached the highest motivation still has, obviously still has
those lower motivations. He wants the Buddha still has those motivations.
The Buddha has no interest in taking birth in the hells, okay! I mean Buddha
Shakyamuni has no you know, desire to see himself take birth in a hell. He still
has that motivation. [Student: Isnt it true in fact that you cant have the
motivation without the lower two?] Yeah, it is true, why? [Student: Because]
the second of the two [Student: yeah] to bring out the first. [Student: Yeah,
because it is that same feeling turned outward. If you dont have that feeling for
yourself you cant have it for others.] Yeah wonderful, so those are the first three

kinds of going for refuge. Theres the going for refuge that you share with
smaller motivation, theres the going for refuge that you share with people of
minimum virtue and then theres the going for refuge that people with large
scope have. Well do two more kinds after the break. By the way [unclear] Well
come back and I will tell you. It is a good place to stop. Ani-la made some soup
if anybody wants some soup. Theres two kinds [cut]
Say {gyui} repeat kyamdro} repeat. Gooey okay [laughter]. {Gyui kyamdro}
Okay this is very interesting, these arehow many {kyamdros} do we have so
far, how many kinds goings for refuge. We have three of them so far, theres
two more. [Student: Cause.] Yeah. [Student: Cause and results.] Yeah this is
cause refuge, cause going for refuge..Iyou have to correct me if I climbed the
wall, I shouldnt say refuge I should say going for refuge. Cause going for
refuge. I always get these two confused and well talk about it and maybe Ill
remember later, okay. This is to take refuge in some quality which has already
been achieved in another person. Like when I go for refuge to Buddha
Shakyamuni thats {gyui kyamdro}. And this is {drebui khamdro} means result
refuge, result going for refuge and thats why I am taking refuge. This is myI
like this refuge in future Michael the Buddha. I am taking refuge in my future
Buddhahood. [Student: So hows that different than the Buddha Jewel, going for
refuge in the Buddha Jewel.] Oh, if yeah these are all forms of exceptional
refuge; these five by the way, just I didnt mention them. These are the five
divisions of exceptional going for refuge, these are the five divisions of Buddhist
refuge, going for refuge. About Buddhist going for refuge, these are all going
for refuge to the three jewels. So, so in result refuge I am going to, I am going
for shelter in my own future Buddhahood, in my own future Dharma, in my
own future Sangha, if I am not that already. [Student: And the other one?] The
other one is going for refuge to a person other than myself who already has
those things in his mind, he already has the Three Jewels, he already is the three
jewels. [Student: Isnt that the Lama?] Could be hes the Dharma Jewel. He has,
I can go to the knowledge in the mind of a person who thats perceived
emptiness directly. If I go to a refuge [Student: In the Sangha.] in a person who
has perceived emptiness, if I go for refuge in his idea, thats cause refuge. Result
refuge is for me to go to refuge in myself, my future self. [Student: So that could
even be a sub-set of the of the other three really.] This is the raw material of
great debate, I mean in the monastery then you try to do, to figure out the
combinations between those five. Are they, did they exclude each other or not,
you know they are very interesting. I think these two are exclusive. [Student:
What arewhen they say the three refuges, the one and the lama, thats the
lama.] Yeah {Gyeme kunden lama dame shok?}, yeah no, he has all three, the

Buddha has all three. Can you have only one of them? He is all three jewels, his
being includes all three jewels. But then youd have a good debate in the
monastery, youd say, Well, has anybody just one of the three. [Student: Has
achieved the resultant one and is still working on the causal other two?] Yeah no,
I mean he is the Dharma jewel but he is not yet the Sangha jewel. He is the
Buddha jewel but he doesnt have the Dharma jewel. [Student: So he could be,
certainly be a sangha jewel before you are a Buddha jewel.] Yeah, thats easy,
thats the easiest one. You can perceive emptiness directly and be Sangha jewel
but you havent reached omniscience yet. [Student: [unclear] when you hear the
definition of the sangha jewel you said that any person that directly perceives
emptiness here in the text you gave us is says, Any enlightened being who
possesses any one of the eight mind qualities of knowledgeable] Good
question, good question, I know, I know what your problem is. It is the word
realize I used the word realize. [Student: You find it in the text.] You have to
be[Student: People who translated as text] She got stuck with the word
realized, which is the word, which is distinguished from enlightened. Realized
doesnt mean enlightened, you can be realized and not enlightened. Realized
means you realized emptiness directly. Enlightened means you know all things
and those are different and thats a distinction that you have to be careful about.
[Student: So realized as opposed to believing in a lie.] That you can say that.
[Student: Thats the easiest.] Thats a good way of thinking [Student: Could you
repeat that [unclear] system.] The way I used the word realized means the
person who has realized emptiness directly. [Student: and enlightened?] And
enlightened means a person who knows all things and that comes much later.
You become realized first if you perceive emptiness directly, then you become
enlightened later. [Student: I am so confused because it seems like two separate
definitions.] Show me. [Student: Okay this is like the sangha jewel I quote,
"A realized being who possesses any number of the eight fine qualities of
knowledge and liberation, So you said in the notes, A sangha jewels is any
person who has directly perceived emptiness.] Yeah, the first two words of that
definition, a realized being, [Student: Uh, huh] that covers anyone who has
perceived emptiness directly.
You could say any realized being actually.
[Student: So to be realized you have to] [Student: You have to have at least
one of the fine qualities to realize emptiness.] Right. We didnt go over the fine
qualities, we will. It will outlinewhy dont you ask me to do that. [Student:
Fine quality [Unclear] Either way we are in trouble. Could it be the sangha
jewel you have a miss?] The last paragraph that we missed {student: page three]
page three, sorry okay. [Student: no, you can skip it] I will just go over the eight
qualities of Buddhahood quickly all right and these are taken from a book called
{Uttara Tantra} it is not a tantric one. It just tantra in that book has a different

meaning. You dont need to know all this. It is also by Maitreya, dictated to
Asanga and in that book they give the qualities of the Buddha jewel and they
give eight qualities of the jewel, the Buddha jewel. The first one here is, He is
uncaused. Is the Buddha uncaused? If he is uncaused we are in trouble.
[Laughing] We are trying to collect the causes to become a Buddha. Obviously
He is caused, right? Arent we trying to get together all the causes[Student: I
was wondering about that.]? Right. Uncaused means this. He is, this is a bit
technical, his Dharma body, his Dharamakya is uncaused.
What is his
Dharmakaya? [Student: The truth you like uncaused.] It is the emptiness of his
mentalof His consciousness; it is the emptiness of his omniscience. [Student:
Oh, I understand that.] That is the Dharma kaya. One part of the Buddhas being
is emptiness. His emptiness. You now have the emptiness, the emptiness of
your mental stream is the same emptiness that you will have when you become
a Buddha and that is your Buddha nature. [Student: Yeah and the same can be
said of all beings.] No all beings have the Buddha nature not because they have
something inside that wind uncovered and makes them a Buddha and meditate
tonight and see it and youre really a Buddha already and dont worry. Of
course you are not a Buddha already. Im getting old my bones are starting to
hurt, my teeth are falling out you know, Id rather not find something inside you
know. [Student: In a sense all beings are uncaused, you can say the same of
every being not just the Buddha.] Right, Right. Technically. [Student: When you
talk about emptiness and when you talk about emptiness there is no Buddha
even, I mean there is even no] Well the Dharmakaya is his emptiness, that that
emptiness the emptiness of your mind now, the emptiness of Laura Segals
mind will be the emptiness, will become the emptiness of Laura Segal the
Buddha and in that sense some part of you know will be part of Laura Segal
Buddha and thats your Buddha nature and thats difficult, people have you
know, there are millions of wrong explanations of Buddha nature. We can
well study it, we will get there, its in this text. Did you have a question [unclear]
[Student: No.]? [Laughing] [Student: Spontaneous.] Okay, hes spontaneous.
Spontaneous means this. Never forget the example of the moon shining at night
over the United States, uh you know, beautiful full moon no clouds and every
piece of water in the United States thats exposed to the sky will reflect the moon.
The moon will jump into every little piece of water or ocean or lake or spring or
anything where there is still water facing the moon he will appear there. Even
your eye, in the water in your eye, you know I mean you look up and someone
looks at your eye and theyll see the moon in your eye. Thats a beautiful idea.
The water represents any sentient being who is ready to meet the Buddha and
the moon represents the Buddha. The minute your are ready the minute you
are ripe he will come to you and he doesnt need to think he doesnt need to

think, Oh it is four oclock, John Stillwell, has finally got renunciation [unclear
student laughing too much] this afternoon you know. Ive got to go down and
teach him you know. He just appears, it is part of his incredible virtue from his
past lives that he will appear in whatever form is useful for you, at the exact
moment that you are ready for it thats one of his qualities; and that is a
wonderful quality and that can be the guy on the bus that spits on you and you
know that can be the tree that you run into. He has the power to manifest it and
he doesnt think about it, he just is it. It is a wonderful idea, [Student: He will
appear again showing whenever?] He will appear to you throughout the day in
any form that you are ready for that any form that will help you go a little bit
further and maybe it is someone who attacks you or yells at you. Sounds
familiar? Huh? [Student: So it doesnt have to be a nicey-nicey Buddha if
necessary.] She had a fight with her boss today. It doesnt have to be but it could
be, it could be a beautiful angel you know, thats possible. [Student: So even
fighting could be] Very possible very possible. [Student: What about karma,
isnt that karma, I mean how do you distinguish when it is caused by the kar
your karma.] Of course it is caused by karma. The Buddha cant appear if you
dont have the karma to have it happen. [Student: It is not like it is caused by the
Buddha. It is there because it is happening to you] Yeah because the water is
ready, the water is still and the clouds have gone. [Student: Or a dream?] Could
be, on one level the reality and the dreams is equal to the reality of the in the
awakening. Normally it is not. Normally it is an example of unreality, but, but
if he could appear to you it has happened, it is in the scriptures it has happened, it
happened to King Udayana for example. [Student: How can he appearwhat
do you mean when he appears to you when somebodys angry at you.] No, if it
will help you go a little bit further in your practice of Buddhism its possible that
the Buddha out of compassion will come and seem to be your boss and yell at
you. It is very possible, that that emanation has been on this planet for thirty or
forty years waiting for that moment, to help you, for whats that to a Buddha?
You know I mean there could be someone from childhood [Student: So you are
telling me my boss is an emanation of the Buddha?] Could be, could, be could
well be. [Student: [laughing] [unclear] it will be a hard time seeing being Buddha
in her] It could well be if it helps you go further, if it helps you advance your
practice it could very well be, it could be. [Students: So I guess this is referring
obviously from the Buddhas side of this thing you are talking about, its
effortless and thats...] Its a reflex. [Student:.. its right, its and thats what this
spontaneous is] thats what spontaneous means[Student: now from the side
of the person who the Buddha is appearing to, obviously you have tothats
also a long process that finally gets that person to the point they can partake and
maybe even ignorantly of this spontaneous largesse of all Buddhas, right so this

is ait sounds like that once you have reached that point and made this sort of
breakthrough I guess it is possible to fall back from that point or once you get to
a certain point there would be no reason for the Buddha to stop appearing to
you so then on the Buddha would be appearing to you all the time.] [Student:
Why doesnt the Buddha appear the way he is so we can recognize him
[laughter] [unclear] What if he walkedwhat if the Buddha walked down the
street looking like the Buddha did, you would think he was crazy. [Student: No I
wouldnt.] By the way if you wouldnt think that he would appear to you that
way, thought the fact that he hasnt appeared to you that way, you would think
that. [Unclear] Weve got to finish. He is realized by no other way. This means
that it explains that you cannot perceive the Buddha through conceptual means
okay. You cant perceive the Buddha by normal kinds of perceptions. [Student:
Sensory perceptions?] Is that true? No, not technically. If you live in India 500
BC he would have appeared to your senses. This refers to the perceptions of the
Dharmakaya. You cannot see the emptiness of the Buddha without directly
without a conceptual thought without some kind of special realization. [Student:
Five hundred years ago you would have seen his Dharmakaya, you say?] His
Nirmanakaya, his movie body. [Student: His actual body?] Its not his, well
theres a debate, I mean hes got four bodies, who knows which is the real one,
but thats the movie body, thats the one he just shows, you know. [Student:
Movie body?] [Student: Oh, holograms.] You can say holograms, its pretty
good. He just pretended to show it, hes not like that, that is not his real form.
[Student: Almost like an invisible body, almost.] No it is a visible body you can
see. If he doesnt show that body, you cant see them because his real body is up
in paradise and you dont have the goodness to see it. So the Buddhas out of
compassion try to show themselves as a normal human being. It is very similar
to the idea of Jesus Christ.
Okay, the next three are very important and they come together and thats why
they are blocked up that way. He has knowledge, love and power. There is a
very famous debate about the Buddha. Knowledge here means hes aware that
we are suffering. Hes aware of our condition. It doesnt help if someone is
aware of your condition if they dont care anything about you suffering. And
then love comes. Thats the way the debate goes. Okay he knows I am in
trouble and he says, Ah, I am busy today, let them suffer without. So he has
love. But it is also no good if a person has knowledge that you suffering and
cared about you and couldnt do anything about it and thats power. He does
the power to do something about it. So he has those three qualities, he has the
power to know perfectly your suffering. He has the power, I mean he cares
about them, he concerned and finally he has the ability to do something about it.

What can he do? The Dalai Lama, the first Dalai Lama in his text on the
Abhidharma Kosha in the opening pages; it is very beautiful and theres a very
famous quotation and he says, Look the Buddha cant come to you and sprinkle
holy water on your head and take your suffering away and he cant transfer his
knowledge to you, you know some kind of meditation and then suddenly you
understand what he understands. He has to talk, he has to communicate with
you, its the only way, its the only normal way in extraordinary cases. [Student:
But those extraordinary cases would be a result of a lot of talking then.] Yah
right, yeah, yeah, the Buddha has to appear to you as a human being normally
[student: to teach you] and he has to teach you thats he {nupar} thats his power,
that is the extent of his power to teach you. [Student: So then it could be like a
[unclear], you could be our Buddha] There a long debate about it. [Student:
maybe you are] Im not, maybe you all are. [Student: Maybe you just [unclear]
[laughter]hang out in New York hey!]
Theres this famous debate my teacher told in India debate that happened forty
years ago in Lhasa. The Buddhas not suppose to have any warts you know so
somethere came to this heavy debate in front of thousands of monks, and he
goes Well, Im warning I the Buddha you know. You the Buddha? Yeah I
am the Buddha. I am the Buddha. No youre not, because you have a wart on
your chin. [Laughter.] [Student: He pulled out a positive acne wart] Okay
anyway [Giggles]
He have satisfied both the needs. The last thing is ah, this is an interesting
point I mean he has satisfied his own needs and he has satisfied our needs.
[Student: Im on seven, where are you? [Unclear] Four, five, six, the two needs,
satisfy the two needs]
I think youre right. [Student: Whose the one, Buddhas the one. Is that
anything?] No, its not, its not (a). It is not one of them. [Student: Its two
needs?] Its just two needs. [Student: So thats (a)] Theres just two needs.
[Student: [Student: Yours and others.] [Student: Last time you asked a question
that ah] Yeah I still asking that question. I like you really doubt. Sorry. Okay.
[Student: [unclear] ] Yeah Ill get to it right now. He has fulfilled all his needs
obviously, he doesnt suffer anymore, hes living in a nice paradise his body is
like rainbow, its a diamond, he has no suffering. He is very happy, as happy as
anyone could ever be, but, but how by becoming a Buddha has he fulfilled my
needs? And the text says well, theres a big debate about it and people say,
Well, Im still suffering. He didnt fulfill my needs and they baffled by the
perfection of giving and they say, How can the Buddha perfected giving if there
are still poor people around? So, he didnt perfect it. There is still poor people
around Ah, no the point in this case is that he has satisfied our need and is

totally available and capable to teach us. [Student: We decide to take refuge.] We
dont have the virtue to have it happen. [Student: Well before you even have
that you have to have the refuge right?] So he has fulfilled our needs so we
havent taken [uclear] yet. [Student: [unclear] wouldnt want to take refuge in
the Buddhas [unclear]][Laughing] [Student: Fulfilled is a funny verb there.] It is
funny, it is meant to be that. Its {shdren kuntsog, kuntzog} thats this Ernsts
monks name and [student: laughing] and Anni-la wants to make fun of Bart, but
it means totally, totally fulfilled, totally complete taken care of, perfect, finished
finito and it is totally controversial, you know. How can he fulfilled my need if I
am still here. He has. It is a tricky verb and we can debate about it for weeks, at
work. [Student: May I ask you if you are personally comfortable with that?
Totally comprehensible and of we] No, I mean the deeper you get into
Buddhism the more you see how everything fits perfectly together and at first
there are things that seem contradictory and thats okay. It will and to say it is
not or pretend its not is a kind of it is not acceptable in Buddhism, you have
to question it. Okay. [Student: Michael why doesnt the Buddha appear to us
[unclear]] You are not ready. You dont have the goodness for him to appear to
you. It is good karma for him to see you. To have the Dalai Lama appear to you
is incredible good karma. To go to Arizona and hear him talk for five days is
some kind of incredible goodness that we have collected [unclear]. [Laughter]
[Student: But it was two hundred dollars you have to get rid of too.] That was
part of the current show. [Laughing]
Okay why take refuge and then well stop. Were doing pretty good. He said
the temporal purpose that he can ride you the highest form of protection. The
ultimate purpose is to attain enlightenment and that the short-term purpose is
there is no better protection in this life. You know if you are worried about
some danger in this life, not even talking big time. Go for refuge, take refuge it
can help you. It is the only thing that will help. For example to do tonglen, you
know to this practice of taking on other peoples suffering or pretending that
you could or fantasizing that you could is really the best protection against that
kind of suffering. It is actually a very powerful cause not to have that kind of
suffering for yourself. To have a true desire that other people not have it or that
you take it from other people onto yourself is [unclear student coughing]. That
is one of the sweetest protections that [unclear], thats the kind of refuge
[Student: Michael, when you think about it, without doing this tonglen right I
was thinking about how you can apply it in every day [unclear] I wish I had this
on myself this way I dont see this person suffering and what happened at one
point I realized and I was thinking all these things and then my goodness I am
going to be all sick and then I will not be able to help anybody.] Not like that

[student: not like that, I figured that was the wrong way] yeah I know not like
that, not like that. So thats it. So temporally I mean of all the protection in the
world this is the best protection. If you, if you get some protection from other
source lets say a policeman if youre in trouble or a judge if you have a court
case or doctor if youre sick. The reason why you are getting help from them
has nothing to do with them right? It is because of something you did. You
treated other people, you gave other people medicine, you helped other people
thats why the doctor is effective for you. There is this thing in Buddhism about
you go to other countries and the same medicine will have different effects on
different people in different people and you can see it in India you know you can
give to somebody, theres whole countries where medicine is not effective to the
same population. Its the karma of the medicine if there is anything about
medicine that helps you if theres any reason a police happens to be around you
when youre being mugged, if theres any reason you win a court case it has
nothing to do with the judge or the policeman or a doctor, its your own
goodness so taking refuge is the ultimate protection, taking refuge in your own
karma, being moral is the ultimate protection. It is very interesting. Giving is
the ultimate poverty solution [laughing] you know its very interesting, it is very
interesting, and it works, try it, try it. I mean, in the tantric texts Sangye Rupa
Dorje says [student: should you impoverish yourself? Thats] You cant. Try it
you know. Pick a big object, you pick something holy and you give, and you
will not be poor. The Buddha makes a vow when he became a Buddha he said
that anybody who tries to follow morality doesnt get fed, let me not be Buddha.
Then Buddhahood is a big lie, you know. Try it and you will find that it works
and it is actually the basis for all the higher, for the secret teachings, that idea is
very important, and it just works and that is the cause of things. It is not
anything else. [Student: What do you mean ultimately. I mean there is still some
kind of connection between getting out of bed and going to work and getting
that paycheck you know. You dont get it when you stay in bed.] Some people
do. [Student: Yes [laughter, unclear] what is the long-term? What is the longterm] What if you want one more short term. One more short term is that you
can take vows all the vows. There are three kind of vows you can take. One are
the what you call the freedom vows, which are monks vows or the lifetime vows
for lay people, which I hope you will all take some day and I think we will take
that, we will work on that, well talk about, well study the whole thing so you
know what you are doing which is very nice. Well go through that, there are
seven lifetime vows, there are one-day vows. You can take the one-day vow
anytime, we can take it together sometime and then there is seven lifetime vows
and two of those can be taken {Tibetan}. First three can be taken by, first three
vows meaning the one-day vow and the two laymans vows can be taken by

people who are still living not as a monk or a nun. You can take those vows for
the rest of your life you dont have to shave your head or wear robes or give up
family life and they are very nice to take, you should take them. Those are the
first kind of vows. The second of vows are Bodhisattva vows. [Student:
Freedom vows, monks vows] Monks vows are one of the eight kinds of
freedom vows. The freedom vows are vowed morality basically. [Student: And
the lifetime vows are also part of the freedom vows?] Yeah, there are two kinds
of freedom vows, theres eight types of freedom vows, {Tibetan} eight, eight of
them. [Student: Vows for lay people are seven total?] No the first three of the
eight can be taken by lay people, the last five can only be taken by people who
lead, but they all constitute what we call freedom vows. [Student: I see what you
want.] All day, and you have to take those sometime. The next level of vows up
are Bodhisattva vows {Tibetan} etcetera you know {tundruk} and then [Student: I
dont know them in Tibetan] secret vows are the third level of vows and each
one is higher than the one below it. To take any of those vows you must take
refuge as I just said for a monk if I try to take monks vows without the intention
of trying to get out of suffering they dont stick, they dont grow and it is even
more true for the higher vows. [Student: When you say you dont get the vows
also mean you dont get any of the benefits?] Ah you get of course you get
[student: it is much smaller] trying to keep them and everything but its not it
does not have the secret fact that vows have, it doesnt have that. Obviously to
you keep your morality even if you dont have a morality for that is great but,
but you wont, you cant have a vow take its true effect if you dont have
renunciation, if you are taking it for any other reason it wont have its true
effect. If you are taking it because everyone else around you is taking it or
because somebody said you should take it or cause you would look smaller if
youre taking it because it is nice or if you dont take it to get out of suffering, it
doesnt have its full effect. So youso what they say is one of the benefits for
going for refuge is that you can take vows. If you dont go for refuge the vow
might not gonna either it wont stick or it wont be very[Student: Michael, you
said that um that theres order which one is the highest one is the secret ones]
yeah the secret [student: and the highest and the next highest the Bodhisattva
and then freedom vows] yeah and most of us havent gotten to the freedom
vows and most of us havent gotten to the little person in the refuge [laughing,
laughter] [Student: Were we not Buddhist, were just talking about it [laughter]
student: kick the ball around] Its aas you get older you will see the truth of it
you know to be really practicing Dharma, you its masterly largely motivated by
death, as you get close to it, and it is sweet to have it ready in your head even if
you didnt appreciate it fully when the time comes you have already gotten it
ready.

Okay the ultimate benefit is obvious, you can reach Buddhahood, if you dont
keep vows, if you dont do what Bodhisattvas to do and specifically if you dont
take and keep your secret vows you cant achieve Buddhahood in this lifetime.
Theres unmemorising a book [unclear] [Student: Im sorry did you say that]
{deshe shepa pungpo chenpo nyenpe shepa nying} It took the Buddha like
seventy five thousand kalpas to [unclear] [laugher] That is the first three
collection of this and the next one was seventy six thousand kalpas and the next
one was seventy seven. You can do it in one life [student: I dont want a
consultation with somebody who could tell me how [unclear] [laugher]] If you
take refuge you can take the secret vows and if you take the secret vows you can
and if you keep them you can reach Buddhahood in this life and thats [student:
so the secret vows are tantric vows?] Yeah, tantra means secret. [Student; when
we took the Kalachakra initiation I think we took secret vows and of course I
took them and I dont know what I was doing.] Yeah thats [student: its a seed
isnt it?] why you could have the vows but they could be decimated by now you
know what I mean. You know my monks vows are similar and I am just
finding out after ten years and I am studying them in detail and if we have
broken them they are injured forever you know they are like damaged and I am
very saddened to learn that I have done something and I didnt know the details
[Student: Why are the injured broke?] Um [Student: are everything to be
mended] they took a big hit you know. [Laughing, laughter] Seriously, that is
how it is described and if you dont hide it and you openly confess to your abbot
or an older monk and in your case your lama you can restore it a lot. The word
is called {Cher chpa sojong} you can restore it pretty well but it will never be
like it was before you broke it the first before you damaged it. [Student: Are
you keeping your vows] You dont lose the vows. To lose a freedom vow you
have to die or give it back {Tibetan} Theres three other ways you can do it but
you probably wont do it. You can change your sex three times and theres
some other ones like that[Student: Were in New York [laughter]] By the way
I should mention one more and it is called {ge tsa che, ge tsa che} is to give up
Buddhism and this is all bullshit you know and karma is bullshit and it is all
meaningless you know, that, that part makes you lose your vows but aside from
that luckily you can have em decimated to keep them. [Student: So then you
have the idea] [Student: So why do they give you the vows without give you
like guidance] it is very improper; it is generally ah[student you know for like
and they will give anyone vows] yeah it is very improper [student: they will
give you the vows for any initiation and give you monks vows apparently
without you knowing what they are.] Ideally you should study them deeply if
ah[student: they wont tell you what they are. [laughing] ] The purpose of the

class is study Buddhism well do that. Well do that in detail. Tsongkhapa, the
first book in Tsongkhapas collected works is a huge book on those two vows
and it is very [ Kyle : The whole thing is a accumulative process as well, I bet if
you would find many Buddhas who you know, at one point in their career they
finally took vows and was perfectly you know] [John Stillwell: They kept
them.] [Kyle: kept the whole time. I think it happens over and over again for
everyone.] Oh no you have to have incentive to do something. I mean you have
to take them knowing what they are and with a pure intent to keep them pure.
[Kyle: Sometime at a very mature point in someones career theyll born
somewhere and take vows and theyll have kept them nicely the whole time and
everyone will say, Wow, you know and like, yes sure after ten million
lifetimes, break it.] Okay weve got to [Student: We have to stop now, the dog is
barking.] [Unclear] The motivation for thinking about it has to involve, by the
way the vows dontalso dont form if in the back of your mind you think,
Well they all so pretty good except that one you know and[What about
drinking beer.] I can probably dispute most of them and then theyll be all right.
That motivation prevents the vow from forming as far as Vinaya vows.
[Stillwell: What about the idea that if it doesnt work then Ill just you know]
Yeah it wont form properly because it is a lifetime vow [Student: That is what
you do with one day] Yeah the one day vow will work, but someone was
telling me oh my friend said I could become a monk for three years and you
know [laughing] [Student: They do that in the Hinayan tradition] There is a
custom in Vermont Montana and to in fact it is a government, you get a
government pension for that period. You leave for three months and your
employer is required to let you go and you can become a monk for like three
months and then, then come back. [Kyle: Every year or?] No, once in your
life, you supposed to be aged twenty or something or? [Student: twenty-one.]
Yeah, twenty one [Student: Compulsory.] [Student: I thought that] It is not
compulsory and it is interesting the effect in Thailand. Theres this, you can meet
a bell boy or you can meet a taxi driver, which I have met and they can start
explaining Vipassyana to you. Thats a nice thing. Technically it is not in the
vinaya. Technically theres seven lifetime vows and there is one lay vow and
there aint nothing else in any tradition of the original vinaya. So thats a custom
and its a good custom and I think its a helpful custom. I think it makes all the
men Ive met, or many of the men in Thailand had a good knowledge of
Buddhism and the King himself did that right. [Student: Im not sure] Yeah he
did. Thats a nice thing. I wish George Bush had done it [laughter]. [Kyle:
People will have to meditate in a cave for three years before they run for
president.] [Student: If you cant give up your vows and take them back?] Ah,
you cant [Student: You cant?] A monk can, its, its technically possible but it is

very extraordinary and not ahif you take a vow with the intention of giving it
back and later taking it again it wont work. [Student: No not now with the
intention at some point and then you can take them back] How can you give
them back at which time you are blind because swore to keep them first for your
life. [Student: At that time you swore you meant to] No, no I know, I know
[Student: You had the intention to that is not a lie.] Oh sure, you say, you swear I
will keep this from my lie. You have to swear otherwise you dont get the vow
[Stillwell: Its a partial karma you collect.] So it is very undesirable. Technically
its possible. [Student: We took all our vows for say, those of us who too the
Kalachakra, we didnt know what we were doing, right.] [Student: Which is a
higher vow] [Student: which is a higher vow than a monks vow.] No but the
technicalities of the secret vows, [Student: Okay we didnt know what we were
doing so we were really blown because we didnt know what we were doing so
should we bother to even attempt the practice?] Obviously, yes of course you
should and then you should [laugher]. Tantric vows you can restore by taking
initiation. [Stillwell: Is it the same as taking the big hit no matters strong?]
[ Student: Come in again] [Stillwell: Same idea?] Most, you can take it again
and they are pure. As I understand it but I cant talk about it here, [Laughing]
and luckily because I dont know much about it.
[Student: Same as the
Bodhisattva vows, same as the Bodhisattva vows?] You can take them all day.
[Stillwell: then you get the same sort of crippling effect of breaking them?] I
dont know that technically. You can[ Student: I havent found one. It
depends whether they are secondary downfalls or root downfalls.]Yeah I dont
believe you lose, you dont lose them the way they are monks vows.
Mandala Offering
Dedication
Homework! [Unclear] I am sorry we went over like this and I will not do this.
[Unclear] I forgot to mention that after every class two people have to stay
above and vacuum and wash the dishes. Do you volunteer or is that a yawn?
Youre warned, keep at it [Student: Were not going to go to [unclear]] so one
does the vacuum cleaning and one does the dishes. [Unclear] [Cut]

TYPING TWO OF CLASS TWO

ACI Course Two, Class two
[prayer: short mandala]
[prayer: refuge]
[prayer: refuge]
[prayer: refuge]
[Cut][Student, John Stillwell]...so any type of intellectual development?
Yes it could be intellectual. The directness of being good. [Unclear]
[Student: Any perception of emptiness?]
Yea...and it says realization of emptiness
[Student: Any realization.]
[Unclear]
[Student: This is Wendy]
Hi Wendy [laughs], we know, okay, okay. Well talk after, after a while, but you
can absorb as much as...
[Student: Can you tell the one [unclear] the one correct thing please?]
Yeah. I said yesterday it was...I said last time it was the direct perception of
emptiness mixed with love. But now I am saying its just a perception of
emptiness it doesnt have to be direct. It doesnt have to be in meditation, it can
be intellectual.
[Student: Intellectual?]
Yes. Can be that, can be that [pause]. Just hold it and listen, okay? [Laughs]. All
right, last time we talked about the three refuges, sometimes they are called the

places of refuge, the Three Jewels. There is a difference between the jewels and
the things themselves. The Dharma jewel and the dharma is not the same thing.
All right? This is dharma, the books are dharma, but they are not the dharma
jewel. Why...the Dharma jewel can only be two things.
[Student: It is a movement inside your mind.]
Yeah, either a path, which is a thought, which is an attitude or a cessation, which
is the ending of some bad quality in your mental stream forever. So... yeah,
although somebody was debating me in New Jersey, it was a pretty good
debate, how do you have both, how could one thing be both, it is very difficult.
So anyway, one is an absence, one is a mental, but I am not going to get into
that. Anyway there is a difference between the jewel and the thing itself, the
dharma and the Dharma Jewel, so we talked about the things you go to refuge
to. Now, today we are going to talk about what it is to go to refuge, what is
going to refuge. Okay you hear it a lot in... you know every dharma teacher
who ever comes to New York for those two day lightning visits they say take
refuge, take refuge and you know everybody goes I take refuge Buddha,
Dharma, Sangha Okay your name is {Yeshe Kwindring}, bye and then...
[laughs/laughter]... Taking refuge is not the words of taking refuge; there is a
vow of taking refuge, that is not taking refuge. That is what we call in name
only is taking refuge it is a kind of taking refuge, but it is not the taking refuge.
Not the real taking refuge, we call it nominal taking refuge. This is the real taking
refuge; this is the real definition of taking refuge here. So try...repeat okay {YUL}
[repeat] {YUL}.{SHENLA}[repeat] {SHENLA}, {RANG-TOB-KYI}[repeat]{RANGTOB-KYI}, {REWA}[repeat]{REWA}, {CHAWAY}[repeat]{CHAWAY}, {SEMPA}
[repeat] {SEMPA}, {KHAMDREY} [repeat] {KHAMDREY}, {TSENYI} [repeat]
{TSNEYI]
Okay, thats the real meaning of what it means to take refuge. Okay, now Ill
explain it. {YUL} means an object; alright {YUL} means an object. {SHEN} means
another, something other, {LA} means to.
[Student: T-O-O?]
T-O, okay?
[Student: {LA} means to?]
Yeah, T-O...Tibetan is easy when you learn Tibetan youll find out {LA} means to,
for, on, at, in, for the length of, for the duration of, all of those are one word in

Tibetan. At, in for the length of , for the duration, all those are one word in
Tibetan. {RANG} means itself {TOB} means power. Whats {TOB-KYI-MEN}?
What do you guess is the...what do you call it, {TOB-KYI-MEN}, the herb for
generating strength? What do you think that is the translation for?
[Student, Tom Kiley: Ginseng.]
Vitamins [laughs]. That is their word for vitamins. {TOB} is what you get from
vitamins. {TOB-KYI}. {KYI} means a, Im sorry by. {REWA} means hope.
[Student: Hope?]
Hope. Hope. Saying in Tibetan, famous saying, {unclear} once you get your
hopes up for something you never get it back [laughs].
[Laughter]
{REWA}...hope. {CHAWAY} means to, to put all your hopes in something. To
put all your hopes in something. And {SEMPA}, {SEMPA} is a very difficult word
to translate. It means anytime the mind moves. Any movement of the mind.
Anytime the mind goes [unclear]. I call it movement of the mind, but it sounds a
little too much like bowel movement for me [laughs].
[Laughter]
[Student: unclear]
That maybe... you know...you...you think about it. I...I...
[Student: Is it thoughts?]
Its close to thoughts, but you see... I almost used the word thought, and in one
case I did use the word thought and youll see. But I ...but not all {SEMPA}s are
thoughts. Thoughts implies a mental verbalization. I thought to myself I better
get out of here. But {SEMPA} can be just like a moment of anger is {SEMPA}. You
know any time the mind does anything thats {SEMPA}. So it doesnt have to be
conceptual so thats the hard thing to translate. Some people have made up the
word cogmentation. I dont like it too much, its not English, okay.
[Laughter]

{KHAMDREY} means going for refuge. {KHAM} means refuge, {DREY} means
going. {KHAMDREY}.
[Student: Has a Y at the end?]
Yeah, {KHAMDREY}, the Y makes it of. Like apostrophe S. That Y is apostrophe
S, like Johnsss. Going for refugesss. [Unclear], definition. [Unclear] definition.
You are now {TSENY-PAS}. {TSENYI-PA} means a monk in a monastery who
isnt just doing easy things anymore, he has decided to become a logician. Okay
{TSENYI-PAS} I mean monks that go into the deep study, they call them, the
name they call them are {TSEN-PAS}they are now working in the realm of
definition, precision, they are...so you are into that. I hope you like it.
[Laughter]
Thats the way its gonna be, thats my training, thats what I, I want.
[Student: {TSENYI} means definition?]
Yeah, {TSENYI} means definition. So now well translate okay? You can say
thats thought for now, but thought... In Tibetan you translate backwards
okay. The Tibetan order and English order are completely backwards. That
thought in which you put all your hopes in another object and I dont know
how to say it in English very well. That thought should be of its own power and
well talk about that. Of its own power, it goes on its own power. And Ill explain
it, youll never figure it out [laughs]. I went to ask my lama to make sure I had
it.
[Student: Unclear]
It has its... its on its own power and well talk about that.
[Student, John Stillwell: So your saying, That thought which has its own power
in which...]
Exactly. That thought which of its own power puts all its hopes into some other
object Thats what it is to goes to refuge.
[Student, Tom Kiley:

So we can scratch out the in which you put all and

replace it with...[laughter]..[unclear] ]
[Laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah....No ...there, there is a nice definition in
your reading at the back of the notebook. Theres a clean definition back there,
Im giving you...
[Student, Tom Kiley: Yeah but, I mean I got tests to take and I want to make
sure I get it right.]
Yeah, yeah, yeah... That though which of its own power puts all its hopes in
another object is the definition of going for refuge. And in the monastery,
youd be like {cho..unclear]. Youd have to... you would this class in the morning
and by after... by evening youd be expected to be debating for like four hours.
And then you wouldnt forget it for your whole life.
[Student: Do they take notes?]
They dont take notes. They read the book with the teacher and then they go
home and think about it. And then in the evening you they have to debate it for
maybe four, five, six hours. And then you never forget after, you know.. you
debated it. You dont forget it. Its a very good system. You memorize the root
text before you go to class, you might memorize the whole thing.
Okay...so...thats what it is to go for refuge, thats what it means to go for
refuge. {YUL SHEN-LA} means some other person or thing outside of
yourself. Obviously. When you want protection you usually go to something
other than yourself. Youre going to something else.
[Student: This is ah....]
The reason you go to protection is that you dont have the power. The reason
you are taking protection, taking shelter, is that you, you ... are going to
somebody else for help because you dont have the necessary power. Or you
wouldnt have to go for shelter, you could stand there and fight whatever it is
yourself. Thats refuge. Refuge means running away to something that could
help you.
[Student, Tom Kiley; Well, this is going for refuge as opposed to having refuge.]
Yeah, this is the definition of going to refuge. We talked about refuge already.
We already talked about what you run to. We talked about mommy. Now

were talking about what it is to run to mommy. What does it mean to run to
mommy. So this is going for refuge. {REWA}..., well skip around [unclear].
{REWA CHAWAY SEMPA} means to put all your hopes in that obect, all your
hopes. And that implies some kind of commitment to that object. You really
believe that that object has the power to help you. Total conviction that that
object can help you. And thats why you go to that object, thats why you run to
that object. So I think we mentioned it last time, theres two things going on
when you take refuge. Kiley, give me one. Theres two, what they call two
elements in refuge. There has to be two things present for refuge to take place.
Why do you run to mommy?
[Students: Afraid, because you are afraid]
Yeah, you got to be afraid. Fear is the first requirement. First requirement is
fear. You are afraid of somehting thats why you are running for protections.
And then what...then can you guess the second part, that you must have?
[Student: That that object can help you.]
Yeah, the belief that that object can help you. The reason you run to mommy
and you dont run to your sister is that mommy is big and mommy has
authority and she can do something. She can do something about it. And your
little sister cant help you. You dont run to little sister, you run to mommy. So
there are two things going on when you take refuge. The first is included here.
When I say {YUL SHEN-LA} some other object, it means, someone that I....
someone outside myself, I am afraid. When I say {REWA CHAWAY SEMPA}
I believe, I believe that object has some power to help me. There has to be two
things going on when you take refuge.
[Student, John Stillwell: And thats not what we are taking about here.]
[Unclear]
[Student, John Stillwell: you lost me the difference between the object of refuge
and going for refuge.]
Mmm... Mommy and going to mommy. Tonight we are only talking about
going to mommy. Last week we talked about mommy.
[Student, John Stillwell: [Unclear]]

Going for refuge. Taking Refuge. Going for protection. There are two... thats
why this week we split this class into two parts, the first class was about Buddha,
Dharma , Sangha Jewels. What...what is the object of refuge, they call it the
object of refuge or place you go for protection. We finished that. Now what is is
for you to go there? What do you have to have in you mind to go there? When
they say have refuge, it means you have this state of mind. And that is this
state of mind. Thats what refuge is. Its not {prayer:refuge...}
[Student: Have refuge the verb or have refuge the noun?]
When you say, when you say have refuge what you mean is taking refuge,
people say do you have refuge, are you taking refuge, which means are you
running to mommy, okay. Refuge is there, the refuges are there. Buddha is
there, Dharma is there, Sangha is there. Their like a... there is a joke in Tibetan in
the lam-rim. Theyre like a big, what do you call it out in a picnic ground... when
you ...no walls
[Students: Tent.... pavilion]
Yeah, pavilion. Yeah so, you are standing there in the pouring rain. And the
pavilion is over there and you stand in the rain and go pavilion, pavilion,
pavilion, pavilion. [laughs / laughter], most people, most Buddhists are like
that, you know, [prayer: unclear...] and then walking under the pavilion out of
the rain is going for refuge. Thats the mind, the state of mind, its not the
[prayer: unclear...], you have have, you have to say that, but you have to have
that thought, what does that mean? By the way thats not the definition of
Buddhist refuge, going to refuge, to Buddhist refuge, this is just the general
definition of going for refuge. And that can be divided into two kinds. One is
going to refuge to normal things; one is going for refuge to ultimate things. So,
people in the world, we all, all day, go to refuge to, we take refuge all day in
normal things.
[Student, Tom Kiley: Thats the problem everybody takes refuge all the time...its
the object you take refuge in...]
Yeah...no.... yeah... so this is not the goal. This is the definition of taking refuge.
Its not the definition of taking Buddhist refuge.
[Student: Actual refuge.]

[Student: Any refuge]

This is just any refuge. This is what it is, we take refuge all day.
You take
refuge... anything you think can help you you are taking refuge in, all day long.
I think it is important to understand, all day long you are taking refuge. The
reason you get out of bed is that you want to go work because you think money
is a refuge. And it is, in a sense. It pays your rent, it feeds you. Thats refuge, that
is a refuge. And if you didnt have {REWA CHAWAY SEMPA}, if you didnt
believe it caould help you, you wouldnt get up and go to work cause its not fun,
right? [Laughs/ Laughter] [Unclear].
[Student: Its funny though.]
Thats why they pay you. [Laugher]. Thay have to get you to come. Thats
{REWA CHAWAY SEMPA} Thats...you...you have that or you...or you... say
you take refuge in a coat, you take refuge in your house, you take refuge in
your friends... your wife or your friend, or your children, or your career, or even
your own self. These are all refuges.
[Student, Tom Kiley:
Or would you take refuge by not taking refuge in
dharma? For instance, alot of people...[laughter]...[unclear] if you take refuge in
dharma you are going to get yourself in trouble.]
Yeah. All the objects I talked about, all of them. All of the reason you get up in
the morning and all the reason that you walk around the street. And all the
reason why you go to work. All the reason why you meet your friends. All the
reason you do anything, is worldly refuge. Youre taking refuge. Every action
you... you, you do has some motivation to get something. Or you wouldnt do
it.
[Student, Tom Kiley: Presumably everything you are doing is going away from
suffering, toward something good. At least thats what you think.]
Every object that you put your hopes in, is temporary, it cant help you. It will
not help you, and we just live like fools. We... our whole day is like foolish.
None of the things that we work for can help us. None of the things we get out
of bed for can help us. You get money by going to work, its not because you
got up out of bed to get the money. Its from what?
[Student, John Stillwell: Thats karma...]

[Laughter]
Thats where you get it from. [Unclear]. We have a whole wrong idea of why
things are happening. Thats one kind of ignorance; its not the ultimate
ignorance. But its a pretty heavy... its a very thick ignorance that we have. We...
we...we are... everything we do is a mistake. We think that through effort, or
getting...waking up or doing blah, blah, blah, we are going to get money. And
some people do it and some people dont, so its not a cause.
[Student Tom Kiley:
anyway?]

So if we stayed in bed tomorrow wed get the money

You would. You could, if you were virtuous. Yeah... yeah... some people just
goof off in the morning [unclear]. You can see it in the world, some people will
work... I mean go to Asia watch the people work in the rice fields, they are
working much harder than any of us, and thats fine. There is no relation.
[Student: But those could be national karmas or larger karmas...]
Oh, they are! Yeah, yeah...yeah. Its not related to how hard you work. Its not
related to how intelligent you are. Theres intelligent people who are poor and
stupid people who are rich. Its not a cause. Its not a cause. I always say, if
people got in a airplane and the stewardess says, your seat number is twelve-B,
by the way we dont really understand why this plane runs, and, ah, it might fall
down, dont mind, just sit down. [laughs/laughter] It works some of the time.
Some of the time it falls down. [Laughs/laughter] Will you get on? But, but
your whole life is like that. You...you...you believe that going to work will get
you money, but sometimes it doesnt. So thats not the cause of you getting
money. Thats not what caused the money. Its...its...its crazy! Its ignorant.
Okay. So thats going for refuge.
[Student: Unclear]
Yeah, well all stay home. [Laughs] Im going to. [Laughter]
[Student: [Unclear]...refuge and what was this other one?]
They call it exceptional refuge. Special refuge.
[Student, John Stillwell: Thats Buddhist refuge]

Thats Buddhist refuge. Thats where you go to a real refuge. One of the... where
do you go for refuge. [Student: unclear] They call it exceptional refuge. We got
to be careful with our words, because ultimate has a different meaning, direct
has a different meaning. Be careful.
[Student: And thats just Buddhist refuge.]
You can call it exceptional refuge.
[Student: Exceptional refuge is always Buddhist refuge?]
Yeah, what they call special refuge or exceptional refuge.
[Student, John Stillwell: And its going for refuge in those three jewels?]
Yeah.
[Student: Is the other one ordinary refuge that we just talked about?]
Yeah. All of those were ordinary refuges. When you read the Tibetan text theyll
say going for refuge to worldly spirits, which exist, and you can propitiate them
and you can appease them and you can get a little...sometimes theyll help you,
and that was the example in Tibet. And also... but... but... this definition fits all of
our daily activities. Its basically that. Okay thats what the definition for going
for refuge is. If you supply the words...basically if you plug in the words Three
Jewels, then you have the definition of Buddhist refuge. Exceptional Refuge.
And we dont do that. Alright now...
[Cut]
{KYEBU} [repeat], {CHUNG} [repeat], {DRING} [repeat], {CHENPO} [repeat],
{SUM} [repeat], {KYEBU} [repeat], {CHUNG} [repeat], {DRING} [repeat],
{CHENPO} [repeat], {SUM} [repeat]. Ah... Kyebu means person. Person. In
Buddhism that can mean an animal also. But not in this case. Okay.
[Student: Can it mean anything else...like a hell being?]
Yeah. Oh yeah.

[Student: Sentient being, or...?]

You can say being. Theres another word for being, but anyway. What Im
trying to say is the per... Person in Buddhism is not limited to a human; a dog
is a person too. Long story...{Kyebu}. {Chung} means small. In Tibetan how
they say small, {chung, chung}, {chung, chung}. {Dring} you had last class, it
was one of the three kinds of sutras, do you remember?
[Students: No]
Middle one. Okay? {Dring} means middle... medium. {Chenpo} you know.
Chenpo means big. Okay? {Sum} means three. These are three levels of
practitioner. Theyre very famous, theyre in the lamrim. And they are... we are
going to talk about five different kinds of refuge, five different kinds of going
for refuge. And these are the first three. Okay. {Kyebu chung} means little
person, medium person and big person. You can call it... if youre writing a
book you call it practitioner of the advanced scope [laughs], lets think of it as
little person, its alright. Little person means the person with the minimum
motivation for buddhists. He has the minimum thought you could have and still
be a buddhist. He has the smallest, lowest motivation that a buddhist can have.
And thats that he wants to get out of the three lower births. He does not want
to go to the three lower births. What are they?
[Students: Hell being.]
Hell
[Students: Animal]
Animal
[Students: [Unclear]]
And what we call {unclear}. Buddhism is not stupid. Buddhism doesnt say you
can say
these two. Buddhism says you cant see these two right now if youre just a
normal person. We... I cannot prove to that these two exists. Okay. And the
books say that over and over again. They do exist. The Buddha said they exist.
You can see them, in certain states of meditation. But I cant prove it to you and I
cant show it to you right now, so take it...take it as the word of the Buddha and

doubt it, okay. But at least you can see animals. Animals, and Hungry ghost,
which are spirits we that cant see. They live around us. We cant see them.
They have bodies, very subtle bodies but we cant see those bodies. Probably
what western people say they see ghosts or spirits, probably they have
something from this realm. And then Hell being which you can read about in
the western religion also. The descriptions of Hell in the Abhidharmakosha and
the description of Hell by Dante or the Christian writers are exactly the same, so
its pretty interesting. I would tend to think that people in each religion have
seen them directly and described them. Some people struggle to say that the
Greeks met the Kashmuris and somehow this myth [unclear] or they say that
Hell is just a metaphor, thats very wrong by the way. Its not just a metaphor it
exists...[27:00]
[Student: A lot of Buddhists [unclear]]
Very wrong , very wrong.
[Student: Tibetan lamas I know dont believe in Hell. {Unclear})
{All: Laughter) [unclea]
[Student: They did, they believed in it until they went to the monestary, and
after years of studying at the monestary that they began to disbelieve.]
No. Not at all, not at all.
[Student: Im just repeating..]
The great texts, Naragarjuna outlines Hell in his {Sumeca}in 200 A.D., the Buddha
describes hell in detail in his Jaktaka Tales, the Abhidharma the third chapter
spends many pages on hell. It does exist. And you know it exists because you
know about Emptiness and you know the four principals of karma. You can
imagine that it exists. If those Four principals of Karma are true, then a
perception of yourself hurting someone now could cause you to have a
perception, much greater, much more intense, and much longer. I mean the
hells, according to the scriptures the life of a being in hell is very, very long.
Extremely long.
[Student: Are hell beings [unclear] animals have mothers and are born so are
humans, are hell beings born the same way?.]

Abhidharma, third chapter explains four kinds of birth. Four kinds, there are
four ways of taking birth. And one is called {TIB:zutecyewa} which means you
just appear in that place. (28:33) [6.5 minutes per day!] Like Padmasambhava was
[Tib: (unclear) zutecyewa.] Thats why he was called Padmasmbahva. Because
he was born from a lotus. Some saints are born from a lotus. So...
[Student: The lotus born.]
The hell is a...in hell you are... you just appear there. And your body has special
qualities. They can torture you and kill you and then, you know, revive again
And then they torture and kill you again and then revive you.
[Student: You dont need a mom.]
No.
[All: laughter]
No in hell they dont have... hell beings are [tib: (unclear) zutecyewa]
[John Stillwell: They have someone to torture you instead]
[Students: Laughter]
No it exists and its not funny. If you ever get a glimpse of itsc terrible, its
horrible. Its...its umm... its like just fire. And its much more painful than this fire
on earth. They say much more painful. There is a long description about that.
What (unclear) you see and things like that. And so... a very long description. A
good description. And in fact when you reach the higher levels of practice you
need to know about that because you need to use it. Okay. {Kyebu chung} so
these people ...the lowest buddhist motivation is to get yourself out of those
three births.
[Student: unclear]
Yeah. Smallest scope. I like that word by the way. And thats whats in the text.
Smallest scope.
[Tom Kiley: Can you say by extension also not just to always be reborn as a

human but at least a decent birth?]

No. No.
[Tom Kiley: They dont care. At least so long as I am in the human realm...]
They..no not even the human they could be in the higher than human also. They
dont, they do not want to go to one of those three lower births. They will do...
they are living this life, their life in this world is dedicated not to being born
there.
[Student: What makes you go... be born a lower realm?]
Bad deeds. The ten bad deeds basically. Check the calendar [laughs]. I mean
those eighty-four thousand deeds. [Student: Unclear] If you want, you want? Im
kidding. [Student:Unclear] Morality. Do these and you dont go, do this and
dont do them and you go [laughs].
[Student: {unclear}]
No. No, this is just any person whos...
[Student: Whats wrong sex Michael?]
Theres lots of them there are two pages of wrong sex
[Student: What would be better is whats right sex.].
[John Stillwell: Shorter page [laughs/laughter]]
[Laughs] You can check that calendar. Huh?
[Student: unclear]
This is the text of the calendar without the calendar on it.
[Student: It doesnt say Michael.]
No just, you can take out all the ones there, whatever is left is okay [laughs].

[John Stilwell: Thank you.[Laughs]]

Im not kidding. Im not kidding.
[Student: It, it, it, do not lie, everybody lies. Is everybody going to go to hell?]
According to the scriptures, ninety-nine point nine nine nine percent of all people
will go to hell.
[John Stilwell: Wow.]
[Students: Unclear] That would be an awfully...[laughter]]
Not funny. No. Not funny.
[Students: Unclear]
I mean those good intentions to help, yes. I mean for example there are nonbuddhists who commit suicide after doing some sort of special prayer in India, in
ancient India. And they thought that was, its actually great bad deed. But they
thought it was nirvana. They thought it was how to get to nirvana. But actually
from the point of view of motivation, that was a virtue. So yeah, if your heart is
in the right place its a long way from... you know, not taking...well talk about it.
So thats the motivation of the smallest level of practitioners. I went to a lecture
in Arizona and the Dalai Lama spoke during the day and some other people
spoke at night. And after I came out, something bothered me. Some...some...
Something bothered me about the lecture and I thought about it for a long time.
And I thought this is not a Buddhist lecture. They didnt mention next life at all.
Theyre talking about how to be happy, well balanced, you know, friendly. You
know...just how to be kinda cheery in this life. And then it just occurred to me
thats nice, but its not Buddhism. The minimum prac... the minimum reason to
go for refuge is, is... is concern about whats gonna happen when you die. Thats
minimum. If you dont have that youre not a Buddhist.
[John Stillwell: Not to Mahayana, but all Buddhists.]
No any Buddhists. That...that is the minimum attitude to, to be called a Buddhist.
And thats why theres this joke in Tibetan where theres this supposedly true
story that there was an abbot of a major monastery up on the throne and some
humble monk had, you know he had the power to read his mind. And he said

that abbot is not a Buddhist. He is not motivated by this minimum motivation.

[Tom Kiley: Then thats the minimum goal, and the minimum motivation is fear,
right?]
Yeah. Right. Sure.
[Tom Kiley: The minimum goal is not to be born in the lower realms. The
motivation for the minimum goal is fear of being born in the lower realms.]
Right. And...and to do the right things in this life... and youre young and you
dont think thats such a relevant goal. You rather have something to work on
thats gonna make you happy or satisfied or even contemplative in this life. It
not the goal. You will get everything you wanted in this life as soon as you get
that. The deeds you have to do to keep yourself out of hell are exactly whats
gonna make you very happy in this life. Thats a side effect. They say thats like
weeds when you plant hay [laughs], you know. I mean the scriptures say that.
Though you can get it, you can be happy in this life. You will get it. But the
motivation has to be that I am working that I do not go down when I die. And
that assumes a lot. That assumes a lot. That assumes you know how the mind
streams. And that assumes you even think theres a hell. And we dont, we dont
truly have that. But as you get older you develop it. So dont worry [laughter].
The older people get the more they start to worry about what will happen after
theyve gone on.
[Student: When youre young you feel strong and you feel nothing like it...]
Your mind is on the next ten years at the most. Probably the next two months,
normally.
[Student: I dont think its just when you get older, I think also when youre sick
and...]
Oh yeah.
[Student: ...really sick and when you lose your physical power.]
They call that [Tib. unclear], they call that goose bump renunciation, it lasts about
a week after you get well...[laughter]. No its a great effort, its very difficult to
take refuge. It assumes a lot of knowledge. It assumes a lot of thinking. It

assumes a lot of observation of death in other people, older people and people
around you. Its not easy, its very difficult. Its not a... its not like, ah, taking
refuge is easy, and Bodhichitta is difficult. Taking refuge is very difficult. Really
becoming a Buddhist is almost impossible, they say...
[Students: Laughter]
...for example in the monks vows...I shouldnt say almost impossible.
[Student: {laughs} Very discouraging]
They say, we just studied...I just did ah, vinaya for a month. The monks, thats
one of our last subjects. And we reached this part where they say that if a monk
takes his vows for any other purpose than, than renunciation, they dont even
stick.
[John Stilwell: What do you mean stick?]
They dont take form in him. He doesnt get the vow. I mean he can go around
his whole life with the robes on but he... he never got the vows.
[John Stilwell: They are not affecting his consciousness and his mind.]
They never grew in his mental stream.
[John Stilwell: He never gets any of the benefits of the vows.]
So then they theres this long debate about where are we gonna find five monks
to make new monks. [Laughs] Cause it takes five monks to make a new monk.
So... so where we gonna find five monks in a monastery. The ceremony has to
be administered by five monks. Which is why theres no nuns vows right now.
Because it dropped under five, and then there wasnt enough to give a new nun
vows. [Unclear] In the Tibetan tradtion you have to have...
[Student: Why do you have to have five?]
Huh?
[Student: Why do you have to have five?]

Long story. Ten ways of taking your vows.

[Students: [unclear]]
No its just...
[Student: [unclear]...this fear of hell and lower realms. So its a fear of falling into
lower realms. I would say that in a somewhat altered form motivates alot of
people in a lot of different religious backgrounds perhaps more, in previous
generations than now.]
Oh yeah. They were... in that sense they were ahead of us.
[Student: That was very strong. But I wouldnt say that it required a tremendous
amount of knowledge. It was almost superstitious... impulsive...]
Yeah... well that, that wouldnt be very firm. It wouldnt be very strong.
[Student: Oh I think it was very strong indeed. but it wasnt an intellectual thing,
it was emotional.]
Well, maybe. Id say that would be... we call that a [tib. deljajubo] for
thickheaded disciples [laughs]. And better are those that study and understand
why hell, hell is, is very possible. No... Just based on what we can see here,
knowing the principles of how your mind works, studying the functions of the
mind, hell becomes extremely plausible.
[Student: [Unclear] cant one be in hell in this world?]
No... no. Much worse. Its a bad idea. You know some Buddhist teachers in the
west have said oh... hell is just a metaphor for depression [laughs]. No not
correct. Not correct. There is a place hell. It aint depression.
[Tom Kiley: [unclear] ...its like youre real super duper.. a real hot one.]
Okay, Ding...what is the motivation of the middle person, the medium person?
[Student: To get out of cyclic existence.]
Yeah. He wants to get out of this form of life all together. He understands that it

doesnt even matter if you are born in one of the higher realms like a human
realm. Its still suffering. He, he understands that even this life that we are living,
which is the best in the dirty world, in the samsara, in the suffering world, is...is
pain. And that nothing about this life is...is very nice. None of the comforts you
have now will last. Period. None of the things you take comfort in, none of the
things you works for, none of the things about your health, or your looks, or
your friends, or your house, or your parents, or your family, or your children,
none of them will last. Period. Theyll all go. Its just suffering, its a temporary
state. I... I translated... did I tell you that? For Yeshe [tib. Dumden]
[Student: Did you?]
Many years ago. Twenty ears ago. Thats how these classes started. And um...he
said health is an accident. The four elements are... the four elements are going
like this, and sometimes the four balls are up in the air all spinning right. But the
normal condition is theyll never...[laughs]...you know. The standard condition of
a human being is [unclear].
[Student: Suffering is actually permanent.]
No. It can be stopped. But...but we dont have anything except suffering. The
things we believe are... are comfort are actually another kind of suffering. The
most obvious fact about those comforts are is that you lose them. And if you
dont think so wait. Everything about your appearance, everything about your
health, everything about your work, everything about your intelligence, youre
gonna lose it.
[Student: How can that be stopped?]
Thats why were having class [laughs/laughter]. No really, no kidding.
[Student: As longs as we {unclear}this life we are gonna be in samsara anyway.]
Not true. Not true.
[Tom Kiley: So can we say here the goal is...]
By the way, thats, thats the big time. We are going for the big time. Im not
teaching this class so you go home feeling better, or you are a better adjusted
person [laughter], or you know, more friendly [laughs/laughter]...or more

cheerful. We are going for the big time. The purpose of this class is is so you
dont undergo a normal death. And that you no longer have any kind of
suffering. Thats the minimum of... purpose of this class. Not that you somehow
your work goes a little nicer or...no [laughter]. 41:30 Because you still need to get
old and die. I met this great Korean... Japanese master. They said this is Joe
Gwan Gu you know, and hes... he was able to sit out in the snow for three days.
[Students: [Laughter]]
And... and I look at him, I mean; I brought a flower and waited at the airport for
him cyou know, and umm...
[Students: [Laughter]]
... he came off the airplane and hes like.... he was, he died the next year. He was
very old and he was suffering.
[Student: frozen...[laughs]]
No...[laughs]. No he was suffering badly. And I said I thought to myself what
does it matter he sat out in the snow for three days if he got old, you know, Im
not interested in... in that.
[Student: But its an achievement, well whether ...[unclear]... ultimate, its still an
achievement.]
Who cares if he died? Who cares if you put your... your body out in the snow if
your body gets old and wrinkled and dies. Anyway...
[Student: Can you repeat that one nice short sentance...?]
Okay. The middle person whose motivation is to get out of all forms of suffering
life.
[Tom Kiley: Its renunciation for cyclic existenece.]
Yeah. Its what we studied in the first...
[Tom Kiley: Is the motivation and the goal is nirvana, right?]

Well, at minimum he wants to get out of... he...he can shoot for Buddhahood too,
thats okay
[Tom Kiley: No, no, n... the middle ... The renunciation, the satisfaction of the
renunciation of cyclic existence doesnt necessarily have to lead to Buddhahood.]
No... not to Buddhahood . Okay. {Chenpo}Whats the big person after?
[John Stillwell: Can I ask a question about this, about the middle?]
Yeah.
[John Stillwell: I get somewhat confused because the idea of... you dont have
Mahayana motivation and yet you can escape samsara, I thought you can only
escape samsara as a Buddha.]
I used to worry about that myself. I used to worry about that a lot. I used to
think how can you get the virtue to perceive emptiness which is necessary to get
Niravana, if you dont love people. You know, doesnt that virtue of loving
people... they have compassion in the Hinayana scriptures, the Abhidharma
teaches compassion. Its not the compassion thats taught in the... but certainly
they have love.43:32 They have loving-kindness, they have compassion
[John Stillwell: Even beyond that though, I was thinking I thought only attaining
Buddhahood really gets you out of samsara, not Arhat or whatever...]
Oh Arhat is the end of samsara.
[John Stillwell: It is, even though youre not Buddha?]
Right.
[Tom Kiley: And to be fair this is a Mahayana description here, presumably a
Hinayana would only have the two, first two... persons.]
Ahhh.... its difficult... its a big debate.
[Tom Kiley: Well, presumably]
Its a big debate. It is a big debate. Its not as easy as it sounds. Its lot like they

dont accept it automatically. {Chenpo}. {Chenpo} means great.

What is it...
what is the motivation of the third person? What do you guess [unclear]?
[Student: To get out of cyclic existence for the benefit of all beings.]
And take everybody else with him. He doesnt want anyone else to suffer. It
goes beyond... it goes beyond the three lower realms for himself. It goes beyond
the three upper realms for himself. It goes out to all realms, all beings. He wants
all beings to get out of all suffering. Thats why hes going for refuge.44:41
[Student: A very fine point. Does he want to leave cyclic existence also for ...
[unclear]?]
Nice. Beautiful. I love it. That was the next thing. Nice. That was the next point.
She said, does he have... what shes basically saying is that, does {chenpo} also
have the motivation of [unclear]? Is he interested in getting his own rear end out
of the lower three births, is he interested in getting himself out of all six kinds of
birth? On top of wanting everyone else out? Yes. And thats why we call, and
youll see it in your text, the motivation which is shared with lower people. A
person which has reached the higher motivation. obviously he still has those
lower motivations. He wants...the Buddha still has those motivations. The
Buddha has no interest in taking birth now [laughs]. Okay? I mean Buddha
Shakyamuni has no you know, desire to see himself take birth now. He still has
that motivation.
[Student, John Stillwell: Isnt it true in fact,
motivation without the lower two?]

that you cant have the great

Yeah, it really is true. Why? You got to have the second of the three paths to
have the third.
[Student, John Stillwell: Because its that same feeling turned outward. If you
dont have it for yourself, you cant have it for others.]
So those are the first three kinds of going for refuge. Theres the going for
refuge which is shared with smaller motivation people. There is the going for
refuge that we share with the people of the middle motivation, and then there is
the going for refuge that the people of large scope have. Well do two more
kinds after the break. By the way ahhh... [unclear]. Okay, well come back in
about ten minutes. Its a good place to stop. Ani-la made some soup, if anyone

wants some soup.

[BREAK] 46:37
{Tib. Gyui Chenpo} Gyui, okay? {Laughs}.
[ Students: Gyui {laughter}]
This is very interesting. How many chempos do we have so far? How many
kinds of going for refuge?
[ Students: Three.]
Theres two more.

[ Student: Cause and results.]

This is cause refuge. Cause going for refuge.
I... you have to correct if Im
telling you the wrong. I shouldnt say refuge, I should say going for refuge.
Cause going for refuge. I always get these two confused, and well talk about it
and maybe Ill remember later [laughs] Okay? This is to take refuge in some
quality which is already achieved in another person. Like when I go to refuge to
47:35 Buddha Shakyamuni that, thats {tib. gyui chenbo}. And this is... {tib. debui
khemdro} means result refuge... result going for refuge. And that is where I am
taking refuge, this is a nice... I like this refuge, in future Michael the Buddha. Im
taking refuge in... in my future Buddhahood.
[Student, John Stillwell: So how is that different than the Buddha Jewel? Going
for refuge to the Buddha Jewel?]
Oh... it... these are all forms of exceptional refuge. These five, by the way, just, I
didnt mention that. These are the five divisions of exceptional going for refuge.
These are the five divisions of Buddhist refuge, going for refuge.
[Student, Tom Kiley: Divisions of what?]
Of a Buddhist going for refuge. These are all going for refuge to the three
Jewels. So in result refuge, Im going to... Im going for shelter in my own future
Buddhahood, my own future dharma, and my own future Sangha, if Im not
that already.

[Student: And the other one?]

And the other one is to go for refuge to a person other than myself who... who
already has those things in his mind. He already has... the three jewels. He
already is the three Jewels.
[Student: Isnt that the lama?]
Could be hes the Dharma jewel. I could go to the knowledge in the mind of a
person who has perceived emptiness. If I go to refuge in a person who has
perceived emptiness to... if I go to refuge in his idea, thats cause refuge. Result
refuge is for me to go to refuge in myself. My future self.
[Student, John Stillwell: So that could even be a subset of the other three really?]
Ahhh, you.... this is really the raw material of great debate. In the monastery you
try to figure out the combinations between those five. Are they... do they
exclude each other or not? You know, itd be very interesting. I think these two
are exclusive.
[Student: What are they when they say the three refuges in one in the lama,
thats the lama?]
Yeah. Yeah. {tib. [unclear]}. Its a... yeah, no... he has all three. The Buddha has all
three. Can you have only one of them? He is all three jewels. His being includes
all three jewels. But then youd have a good debate in the monastery. Hed say
well does anybody have just on e of those jewels... just one of those three jewels.
[Student, Tom Kiley: Who has achieved the resultant one and still is working on
the causal other two? Is that what you mean?]
No I mean like he is the dharma jewel, but hes not yet the Sangha jewel. He is
the Buddha jewel, but doesnt have the dharma jewel.
[Student, Tom Kiley: But you could be the you certainly could be the Sangha
jewel before you are the buddha jewel.]
Yeah thats easy. Thats the easiest one. You can perceive emptiness directly and
be the Sangha jewel. But you havent reached omniscience yet.

[Student: When you give a definition of Sangha jewel, you say any person who
directly perceives emptiness yet in the text you gave us it says any enlightened
being who possesses nay of the eight fine qualities of knowledgable [unclear]...]
Good question. Good question. I know... I know what your problem is. Its the
word realized. I used the word realized.
[Students: [Unclear]]
She got stuck on the word realized. Which is the word... which is distinguished
from enlightened. Realized doesnt mean enlightened. You can be realized and
not be enlightened. Realized means you realized emptiness directly. Enlightened
means you know all things. And those... those are different. Thats a distinction
you have to be careful about.
[Student, Tom Kiley: Say realized as opposed to fully realised.]
Thats a... you can say that. Thats a good way of putting it. Yeah.
[Student: Could you repeat that?] 51:51
The way I used the word realized means the person who has realized emptiness
directly.
[Student: And enlightened?]
And enlightened means, a person who knows all things. And that comes much
later. You become realized first if you perceive emptiness directly. You become
enlightened later.
[Student: Im still confused because it seems like it two different definition]
Show me.
[Student: Okay, it says a Sangha jewel is, I quote, a realized being who possesses
any number of the eight fine qualities of knowledge and liberation. But you say a
Sangha jewel is any person who directly perceives emptiness.]
Yeah. The first three words of that definition, a realized being, that covers

anyone who has perceived emptiness directly. We could say any realized being
actually.
[Student: To be realized you have to be...]
Right. Right. We didnt go over the fine qualities, we will. I mean Ill do them
[unclear].
[Students: [unclear]]
[CUT]
The last paragraph on page one.
[Student: I have page three.]
Page three, Im sorry. Okay go ahead and [unclear]. Ill just go over the eight
qualities of a Buddha with you quickly. Alright, and these are taken from a book
called {tib. UTTARA TANTRA}, its not a tantric work it just..., tantra in that book
has a different meaning. You dont need to know all this. Okay. Its also part of
Maitreya dictated to Asanga. And in that book they give the qualities of the
Buddha jewel. And they give eight qualiites of the Jewel. The Buddha Jewel. The
first one here is, he is uncaused. Is the Buddha uncaused? If he is uncaused, were
in trouble [laughs]. Were trying to collect the causes to become a Buddha.
Obviously hes caused. Alright? Arent we trying to get together all the causes...
[Student: I was wondering that.]
Right, [laughs]. Ahh... uncaused means this. He is... it is a little bit technical. His
dharma body, his dharmakaya is uncaused. What is his dharmakaya?
[Student, Tom Kiley: The truth.]
It is his emptiness of his mental consciousness... his consciousness. Its the
emptiness of his omniscience. That is the dharmakaya. One part of the Buddhas
being is emptiness, his emptiness. You now have the emptiness, the emptiness of
your mental stream is the same emptiness that you will have when you become
a Buddha, and that is your Buddha nature.
[Student, Tom Kiley: And the same can be said of all beings.]

No. All...all beings have the Buddha nature, not because they have something
inside that when uncovered makes them a Buddha, and meditate tonight and see
it and youre really a Buddha already and dont worry and... of course were not
a Buddha already, Im getting old , my bones are starting to hurt, my teeth are
falling out.[Laughs/laughter]. Id rather not find something inside you know.
[Student, Tom Kiley: So in this sense all beings are uncaused, its the same of any
being, not just the Buddha?]
Technically, technically.
[Student: I mean when you talk about emptiness, when you talk about
emptiness, there is no Buddha even. I mean there is even no...]
Well, his dharmakaya is empty. The emptiness of your mind now, the emptiness
of Laura Siegels mind will be the emptiness, will become the emptiness of Laura
Siegels the Buddha. And in that sense, some part of you now will be part of
Laura Siegel Buddha. And thats your Buddha nature. And thats difficult, people
have.. you know there are millions of wrong explanations of Buddha nature.
Well study it, well get there. Its in this text. Okay. Did you have a question
Caroline?
[Student, Caroline: No.]
Okay. [Laughs]. He is spontaneous. Spontaneous means this. This is the... never
forget the example of the moon shining at night over the United States. You
know, beautiful full moon, no clouds. And every piece of water in the United
States that is exposed to the sky will reflect the moon. The moon will jump into
every piece of water, or ocean, or lake, or spring, or anything wheres there still
water facing the moon, he will appear there. Even your eye, in the water in your
eye. I mean you look up and someone looks at you eye and theyll see the moon
in your eye. Thats a beautiful idea. The water represents any sentient being
whose ready to meet the Buddha, and the moon represents the Buddha. The
minute you are ready, the minute you are ripe, he will come to you. He doesnt
have to think. He doesnt say, ahh four oclock, John Stillwell [laughter], finally
reached... just got renunciation, I better go down there and teach him, you
know. He just appears. Its part of his incredible virtue from his past lives, that he
will appear in whatever form that is useful for you at the exact moment you are
ready for it. And thats one of his qualities, its a wonderful quality. And that
could be the guy on the bus that spits on you. That could be the tree you run

into. He has the power to... to manifest as that. And he doesnt think about it, he
just is it. Thats a wonderful idea.
[Student: He will appear again starting whenever...?]
Hell appear to you throughout the day in any form that you are ready for. Any
form that will help you go a little bit further. And maybe it will be someone who
attacks you or yells at you, sound familiar? She got in a fight with her boss
today. Okay.
[Student, John Stillwell: So its not going to be a nicey, nicey Buddha.]
It doesnt have to be, but it could be. It could be a beautiful Angel. Thats
possible.
[Student: So even fighting.]
Very possible, very possible.
[Student: So what about karma? So isnt that karma, how do distinguish when
its caused by karma or...]
Of course its caused by karma. The Buddha cant appear to you if dont have any
karma to have it happen.
[Student: Its not like its caused by the buddha, its just that the Buddha is there
because its happening to you.]
Yeah, because the water is ready. The water is still and the clouds have gone.
[Student: Would a dream...?]
Could be. On one level the reality in a dream is equal to the reality of waking.
Normally its not. Normally its an example of an unreality. But...but...yeah he
could appear to you in a dream. Yeah it has happened, its in scriptures its
happened. It happened to a kingdom in the [unclear].
[Student: How do you... what do you mean when he appears to you when
somebodys angry at you?]

If it will help you go a little bit further in your practice of Buddhism, its possible
the buddha will out of compassion, come and seem to be your boss and yell at
you. And its very possible that that emanation has been on this planet for thirty
or forty years, waiting for that moment to help you. Cause whats that to a
Buddha? You know what I mean; there could be someone you know from
childhood.
[Student: So youre telling me is that my boss is an emanation of the Buddha?
Could be. Could be... could well be.
[Student: [Laughs] Have a hard time seeing the Buddha in her.]
Could well be if it helps you go further. If it helps you advance your practice.
Could very well be. Could be.
[Student, Tom Kiley: So I guess this is referring obviously, from the Buddhas
side of this thing you are talking about its effortless...]
Its a reflex.
[Student, Tom Kiley: Right. And thats what the spontaneous is.]
Right. Thats whats spontaneous means.
[Student, Tom Kiley: Now from the side of the person who the Buddha is
appearing to, obviously you have to... thats also a long process that finally gets
that person to the point where they can partake of, and maybe even ignorantly
of this spontaneous largess of all Buddhas. Right...so... this sounds like once you
have reached that point youve made some sort of break through. I guess its
possible to fall back from that point or once you get to a certain point there
would be no reason for the buddha to stop appearing to you so from then on
Buddha would be appearing to you all the time.
[Student: So why doesnt he appear to you the way he is so you can recognize
him [laughter]?
What if he walked in ... What if the Buddha walked down the street looking like
the Buddha did? You would think he was crazy. [Laughter]

[Student: No I wouldnt]
Yeah you would. By the way if you wouldnt think that, he would appear to you
that way. And the fact that he hasnt appeared to you that way that means you
would think that. [Laughs/laughter]
[Student, Tom Kiley: So all we have to do right now is to think... okay, were
serious and were ready and appear to us in a very obvious form and ah....
[Laughter]]
Okay... okay... we got to finish. He is realized by no other way. This means that
a... its explained that you cannot perceive the Buddha through conceptual
means. You cant perceive the Buddha by normal kinds of perception.
[Student, John Stillwell: Sensory perception?]
Is that true? No not technically. If you lived in India five hundred B.C., he would
have appeared to your senses. This refers to the perception of his dharmakaya.
You cannot see the emptiness of the Buddha, without... directly, without a
conceptual thought, without some kind of special realization.
[Student: Twenty-five hundred years ago you would have seen his
dharmakaya?]
His Nirmanakaya. His movie body.
[Student: His actual body?]
Its not his...well... theres a debate. Hes got four bodies, who knows which is the
real one. But ah... thats the movie body. Thats the one he just shows.
[Student: The movie body...?]
[Student, Tom Kiley: The hologram.]
You could say hologram, its pretty good. He just pretended to show it, hes not
like that, thats not his real form.
[Student: Almost like an invisible body.]

No its a visible one that you can see. If he doesnt show that body, you cant see
him, because his real body is up in paradise. You dont have the goodness to see
it. So Buddhas out of compassion try to show themselves as a normal human
being. Its very similar to the idea of Jesus Christ. Okay, the next three are very
important, and they come together and thats why they are all blocked out that
way. He has knowledge love and power. Theres a very famous debate about
the Buddha. Knowledge here means he is aware that we are suffering. Hes
aware of our condition. It doesnt help if someone is aware of your condition if
they dont care anything about you. So then Love comes. So thats the way the
debate goes. Okay he knows Im in trouble, but if he says... Im busy today, let
them suffer or whatever. So he has Love. But its also no good that if a person
has knowledge that you are suffering and he cared about you and couldnt do
anything about it. And thats power. He does have the power to do something
about it. So he has those three qualities. So he has the power to know perfectly
your suffering, He has the power, I mean he cares about it. Hes concerned. And
finally he has the ability to do something about it. What can he do? The Dalai
Lama, the first Dalai Lama in his text on the Abhidharmakosha in the opening
pages, its very beautiful. And theres a very famous quotation and he says look
Buddha cant come to you and sprinkle holy water and take your suffering
away. And he cant transfer his knowledge to you, you know, with some kind of
meditation and then suddenly you understand what he understands. He has to
talk, he has to communicate to you. Its the only way. Its the only normal way. I
mean in extraordinary cases...
[Student, Tom Kiley: But those extraordinary cases would be the result of a lot of
talking then.]
Right, right [laughs]. Buddha has to appear to you as a human being normally.
And he has to teach you. And thats his {tib. [unclear]}, thats his power. That is
the extant of his power.
[Student: So if you could [unclear] for example, then you could be a Buddha.]
Theres a long debate it. Theres a long debate.
[Student: Maybe you are.]
Im not. Im not, maybe you all are.
[Student: Maybe hes just [Unclear]]

Okay.
65:15
[Laughs/Laughter]
Theres a famous debate my teacher told me, a debate that happened forty years
ago in Lhasa. The Buddha is not supposed to have any warts, you know. It came
down to this heavy debate in front of thousands of monks, and this guy says, I
want the Buddha, are you the Buddha? And he says yeah, I am the Buddha, okay
I am the Buddha. No youre not because you have a wart on your chin. [Laughs/
laughter]. Okay anyway...He has satisfied both the needs. The last thing, is a ....
this is an interesting point I mean he, he has satisfied his own needs and he has
satisfied our needs.
[Student: Im on seven, where are you?]
[Students: [Unclear]]
[Student: ... four, five six,... oh, the two needs. Satisfy the two needs]
Yeah, youre right.
[Student: Whos the one? Buddhas the one. Is that anything?]
No its not eight... its not one of them.
[Student, John Stillwell: I have two needs.]
Yeah two needs.
[Student, John Stilwell: So thats eight.]
Yeah.
[Student, John Stilwell: ..seven, eight.]
[Student: Yours and others, right?]
[Student: Last time you asked a question...]

Yeah and Im still asking that question, I like you really [unclear]. Okay, Ill get to
it right now. He has fulfilled his own needs obviously; he doesnt suffer
anymore; hes living in a nice paradise; his body is like a rainbow, its a diamond;
he has no suffering; hes very happy. As happy as anyone could be. But... but
how, by becoming a Buddha has he fulfilled my needs? And in the text... the text
says, well, theres a big debate about it, and people say, Im still suffering, he
didnt fulfill my needs. For example, when they talk about the perfection of
giving they say, how can... how can you have... how can the Buddha have
perfected giving if theres still poor people around? So he didnt perfect giving...
theres still poor people around. No, the point is in this case is that he has
satisfied our needs in that he has totally available and capable to teach us.
[Student,Tom Kiley: We just have to take refuge in him.] 67:32
We dont have the virtue to have it happen.
[Student,Tom Kiley: Well, even before you have that you have to have the
refuge. You have to take the refuge.]
He... he has fulfilled our needs and we havent taken advantage of it.
[Student,Tom Kiley: ... wouldnt want to take refuge in the Buddha [unclear]
anyway. [Laughter] So whats the Buddha gonna do...excuse me Im gonna give
you this anyway, you know.]
[Student: I think fulfilled is a funny verb there.]
But its... its meant to do that. Its {tib. CHENDU PENSOK??} {TIB. PENSOK}
thats Aaron [unclear]s monks name. And Ani-la wants to make fun of him for
it. But... it means totally, totally fulfilled; totally completely taken care of;
finished; perfect; finito and so its very controversial. How can he have fulfilled
my needs if Im still here. [Unclear]. Its a tricky verb, and we debate about it for
weeks...for weeks, you know. Just that word.
[Student: May I ask if you personally if you are comfortable with that? Totally
comprehensible or is that one of...?]
I understand... I mean, the deeper you get into Buddhism, the more you see how
everything fits perfectly together. And...and... and at first there are things that
seem contradictory. And thats okay. It will and to say its not or to pretend its
not is kinda... is not acceptable in Buddhism. You have to question it. Okay...

[Student: So Michael, why doesnt the Buddha appear to us...[unclear]?]

Youre not ready yet. You dont have the goodness for him to appear to you. Its
a good karma to have him to appear to you. To have the Dalai Lama appear to
you is an incredible good karma. To go to Arizona and hear him talk for five
days is some kind of incredible goodness that we collected to be there.
[Student: That with two hundred dollars you had to get it really too[laughs/
laughter].]
That was part of the karma too [laughs]. Okay. [laughs] Why take refuge, and
then well stop. Were doing pretty good. He says a temporal purpose is that
they can provide you the higest form of protection. The ultimate purpose is to
attain the state of enlightenment.
[Student: Can you say that again?]
That the short term purpose is that there is no better protect in this life. If youre
worried about some danger in this life, not even talking big time, go for refuge.
Take refuge, it can help you. It is the only thing that can help you, for example to
do tonglen, to do this practice of taking on other peoples suffering or
pretending that you could or fantasizing that you could is really the best
protecting against that kind of suffering. Its actually a very powerful kind of
cause not to have that kind of suffering yourself. To have a true desire that other
people not have it, or that you could take it from other people onto yourself.
Thats one of the sweetest protections against it. Thats... thats a kind of a refuge.
[Student: Michael... Michael when you think about it, without doing tonglen, I
was thinking about how you can apply it everyday [unclear], I wish I had this
upon myself that way I dont see this person suffering, And what happens at
one point I realize I was thinking all those things and then my goodness Im
gonna be all sick I not going to be able to help anybody.]
Not like that [laughs].
[Student: Not like that. I figured that was the wrong way of doing it [laughs]]
Yeah, no not like that. Not like that. So thats temporarily, of all the protections
in the world, this is the best protection. If... if you, if you get protection from

some other source, say a policeman if youre in trouble, or a judge if you have a
court case, or a doctor if youre sick, the reason you are getting help from them
has nothing to do with them. Right? Its because of something you did. You
treated other people, you gave other people medicine, you... you helped other
people. Thats why the doctors effective for you. Theres this thing id Buddhism,
you go to another country and the same medicine will have different effects on,
on different people in different countries. And you can see it in India. You can
give the same medicine to somebody and theres whole countries where
medicine is not as effective to the same population. Its a karma of the United
States. If theres anything about medicine that helps you, if theres any reason
why a policeman happens to be around you when you are being mugged, if
theres any reason you win a court case, it has nothing to do with the judge, or
the policeman, or the doctor. Its your own goodness, so taking refuge is the
ultimate protection. Taking refuge in your own knowledge of karma, for
example. Being moral, this is the ultimate protection, its very interesting. Giving
is the ultimate poverty solution [laughs]. Very interesting. Its very interesting
and it works, try it... try it. I mean in the tantric texts, I can tell you {TIB.
CHANGYA ROLPAY DORGEY} says...
[Student: So should you impoverish yourself?]
You cant. Try it. You know, take a big object. Pick something holy and give.
And you will not be poor. The Buddha makes a vow when he became a Buddha,
he says if anybody tries to follow morality and doesnt get fed, you know let me
not be a Buddha, let... let.., then Buddhahood is a big lie. Try it, youll find that it
works. Its actually the bases for all the higher... for the secret teachings. That
idea is... is very important. And it just works, and thats the cause of things. Not
anything else.
[Student,Tom Kiley: You mean ultimately, theres still some connection between
getting out of bed and going to work and getting that paycheck, you know, you
dont get it if you stay in bed.]
Some people do. [Laughter] I do [Laughter] Anyways...alright, now I have one
more short term. I wan to do one more short term. One more short term is a...
you can take vows. All the vows. Theree three kinds of vows you can take. One
are the, what we call the freedom vows, which are monks vows or the lifetime
vows for... for lay people. Which I hope you will all take someday. And I think
we will take that, well work on that. You know, well talk about it, well study
the whole thing so you know what you are doing, which is very nice. Well go

through that. Theres seven lifetime vows, theres one one day vow. You can
take the one day vow anytime, we can take it together sometime. And then
theres seven lifetime vows. Two of those can be taken {TIB. [Unclear]}, yeah the
first three can be taken by, the first three vows meaning the one day vow and
the two laymans vow can be taken by by people who... who are still living a...
not as a monk or a nun. You can take those vows for the rest of your life. You
dont have to shave your head, or wear robes, or give up family life. And they
are very nice to take. You should take them. So those are the first kind of vows.
The second kind of vows are Bodhisattva vows.
[Student: Freedom vows are monks vows?]
Monks vows are one of the eight kind of freedom vows. Freedom vows are
vowed morality basically.
[Student: And the lifetime vows are also part of freedom vows?]
Yeah, theres two kinds of freedom vows. Theres eight... eight types of freedom
vows. {TIB. [unclear]} Eight. Eight of them.
[Student: Vows for lay people have seven total?]
No, the first three of the eight can be taken by lay people. The last five can only
be taken by people who leave... but they all constitute what we call freedom
vows. All eight and you have to take those sometime. The next level of vows up
are Bodhisatva vows. {TIB.[Unclear]} etcetera, you know.
[Student: I dont know them in Tibetan.]
And then the secret vows are the third level of vows and each one is higher than
the one below it. To take any of those vows you must take refuge. As i just said,
for a monk, if I try to take monks vows, without the intention of trying to get
out of suffering, they dont stick. They dont grow. And its even more true for
the higher vows.
[Student, John Stillwell: When you say you dont get the vows, does that also
mean you dont get any of the benefits?]
You get...of course you get some benefits if you try to kepp it and everything,
but its not a... it doesnt have... theres six effects that vows have. And it doesnt

have that effect. Obviously, if you keep you morality and even if you dont have
a vow for it, its great. But... but you wont... you cant have a vow take its true
effect if you dont have renunciation. If you are taking it for any other reason, it
wont have its true effect. If you are taking it because everyone else around you
is taking it, or you are taking it because somebody said you should take it, or
your taking it because you look smart or you are taking it because its seems nice
or... if you dont take it to get out of suffering, it doesnt have its full effect. So
you... so what they say is one of the benefits of going for refuge is that you can
take vows. And if you dont go for refuge the vow is... either it wont stick or it
wont be very meaningful.
[Student: Michael, you said that the order... which one is the... the highest one I
would say is the secret vows.
Yeah.
[Student: ...and then the next highest, Bodhisatva, and then the freedom vows.]
And we... most of us havent gotten to the freedom vows. And most of us
havent gotten to the little persons refuge [laughs/laughter].
[Student: Hey, were not Buddhist, were just talking about it...[laughs/
laughter]... kicking the ball around [laughs] ]
No I mean its... its a ... as you get older you will appreciate it, youll see the truth
of it. I mean if you will really be practicing dharma you... it has to largely
motivated by death. As you get closer [laughs]... and its sweet to have it ready
in your hand. Even though you didnt appreciate it fully. When the time comes
you already got it ready. Okay, the ultimate benefit is obvious. You can... you
can reach Buddhahood. If you dont keep vows 80:53, If you dont do what
bodhisattvas are supposed to do, and specifically take and keep the secret vows,
you cant achieve Buddhahood in this lifetime. Im memorizing a book that...
[Student; Im sorry, did you say..]
...{TIB. [unclear]}, it took the Buddha some seventy five thousand kalpas to
collect [laughs/laughter]. That was his first period of his [unclear], and then the
next one was seventy six thousand kalpas. I mean you can do it in one life if you
[unclear]... then you can take the secret vows. And if you keep them you can
reach buddhahood in this life.

[Student: So the secret vows are tantra vows.]

Yeah. Tantra means secret.
[Student: If we did the kalachakra initiation and I think we took secret vows and
of course, I personally didnt know what I was doing.]
Yeah, thats why... you can have the vows, but they could be decimated by now.
You know what I mean. My monks vows are similar, Im just finding out after
ten years. Im studying them in detail. And... and ... and if we have broken them,
they are injured forever. They are, are like damaged. And I m very sad to learn
that Ive done some, you now I didnt know all the details.
[Student: Why are they injured forever?]
They take a big hit you know [laughs/laughter]. Thats how its described. And if
you dont hide it, if you openly confess to your abbott or an older monk or in
your case your lama, you can restore it a lot. The word is {TIB. [unclear]}. You
can restore it pretty well. But it will never be like it was before you broke it the
first time, before you damaged it. You dont lose the vow. To lose a freedom
vow, you have to die or give it back. {TIB. [Unclear]}. Theres three other ways
you can do it but you probally wont do it. You can change your sex three times;
and theres some other ones like that.
[Student, Tom Kiley: Only in New York...[laughs/laughter]
{TIB.[unclear]} is to give up Buddhism, to say this is all bullshit, you know.
Karma is bullshit, its all meaningless, you know. That... that thought makes you
lose your vows. But aside from that you can luckily have them decimated and
still keep them.
[Student: So why do they give you the vows without giving you the guidelines?]
Very improper. Yes its very improper.
[Student: Its like theyll give anyone vows at any initiation and theyll give you
nuns and monks vows apparenly without you knowing what they are.]
You have to... ideally you should study them deeply...

[Student: They dont tell you what they are.]

...No well study them. Well do that. We go through that. Well do them in
detail. The first book in Tsongkapas collected works is a huge book on the
[unclear].
[Student, Tom Kiley: The whole thing is an accumulative process as well, I dont
think that you would find many Buddhas who at one point in their careers they
finally took vows and they kept them perfectly for the whole time. I think it
happens over and over again to everyone.]
Oh no, but you have to have the intention to do something. You have to take
them knowing what they are, and make a pure intent to keep them pure.
[Student, Tom Kiley: And then sometime at a very mature point in someones
career theyll be born somewhere, theyll take vows, and theyll have kept them
really nicely the whole time and everyone will say wow, I mean sure, after ten
million lifetimes of breaking em.]
Okay we got to get...[unclear]... the motivation in taking your vows has to
involved... by the way the vows do not form if in the back of your mind you
think, a... they all sound pretty good except that one, you know [laughs/
laughter]. And I can probally keep most of them and Ill be alright. That
motivation keeps the vow from forming. As far as vinaya vows.
[Student, John Stillwell: What about the idea of Ill try and if it doesnt work Ill
just, you know...]
No... yeah thats also it wont form properly because its a lifetime vow.
[Student: Thats why you do it for one day.]
Yeah, the one day vow will work. Someone was telling me, oh my friend was
telling me that to become a monk for three years... no. [laughs/laughter]
[Student: They do that in the hinayana tradition.]
Theres a custom in Burma and Thailand to... in fact its a government, you get a
government pention for the period, you can leave work for three months, and

you employer is required to let you go. And you can become a monk for like
three months and come back.
[Student, Tom Kiley: Evey year?]
No, like once in your life, by what? Youre supposed to do by age twenty or
something?]
[Student: Yeah. Twenty-one.]
Its not compulsory, but its interesting the effect in Thailand. You can meet a taxi
driver or you can meet a bellboy and theyll start explaining vishpaysana to you.
And thats a nice thing. But technically its not in the... its not in the vinaya.
Technically there is seven lifetime vows and one one day vow and thats it. There
aint nothing else in any tradition of the original vinaya. So thats a custom and
its a good custom. I think ... I think its a helpful custom. I think it makes all the
men Ive met in Thailand, many of the men had a good knowledge of Buddhism
from that. The king himself did that, didnt he/
[Student: Im not sure.]
No.. yeah he did, I met him. Thats a nice thing, get George Bush to...[laughs/
laughter].
[Student, Tom Kiley: People will have to meditate in a cave for three years
before they could run for president.]
[Student: You cant give up your vows and take them back?]
Ah.... you can. A monk can. Its technically possible, but its... its really
extraordinary and not... If you take a vow with the intention of giving it back
and later taking it again it wont [unclear].
[Student: No not with the intention, but at some point...]
You can probally give it back, but at that point you have lied, because you have
sworn to keep those vows for your life.
[Student: But at the time you swore, you meant to.]
No... no.. I know [laughs].

[Student; Well you had the intention to so its not a lie.]

Oh sure it is. You say... you swear, you say i will keep this for my life. You have
to swear or you dont get the vow.
[Student, John Stillwell: So its a partial karma you collect.]
So its... technically its possible.
[Student: So if we blow our vows, say those of us who took the Kalachakra vows
and we didnt even know what we were, right? Which is a higher vow than a
monks vow.]
The technicalities of the secret vows are in the [unclear].
[Student: So we didnt know what we were doing so we have already blown
them. Should we bother to even attempt to do the practice?]
Obviously yes, of course you should. And then you should [laughter] [unclear].
Tantric vows you can restore by taking the initiation again.
[Student, John Stillwell: Is it the same as you take the big hit and there not as
strong?]
No. You can take them again and they are pure. As I understand it, but I cant
talk about it though [laughs]. And luckily I dont know much about it.
[Student, John Stillwell: You get the same crippling effect from breaking them?]
I dont know that technically.
[Student: It depends if they are secondary downfalls or root downfalls.]
Now I dont think you lose them like monks vows.
[Prayer: Short Mandala]
[Prayer: Dedication]

TYPING ONE OF CLASS THREE

CLASS NOTES 11-10-93
Course II, Level One10.5
Class Three: Bodhicitta and Mind
Transcribed by Linda Salmon
Mandala Offering
Bodhichitta Prayer
[cut] So main mind is just awareness, its what Mike Tyson when he punches you
is what you lose. Thats main mind. Main mind just means consciousness, just
your raw awareness, its a miracle that you think about it, that you are aware.
Where does it come from, how does it happen. You know its, its like some kind
of miracle; it is more miraculous than a plant or anything. How, how is it you
that know anything, how is it that youre aware more and that is called main
mind and then mental functions are focussed at particular things. Jealousy is
focussed at someones elses achievements. You know, anger is focussed at
someone elses faith or the way they speak to you so each of those mental
events is a mental function and then main mind is a mental event but it is not a
particular function; it is just there and it is just aware. So sometimes theres a
thing where some kinds of mental functions depend on main mind to shift and
then they with it and then they are not acting on their own accord, but, but
going for refuge does which has a specific object and go to that object without
the it doesnt ride on the coattails of raw awareness. It does not ride on the
coattails of another, of another mental function. Its independent, it doesnt
depend on another mental function to move somewhere before, so it can go
with it. [John Stillwell: So wouldnt that be spontaneous] thats what by [John
Stillwell: presence] its own accord however I translated thats what that means
its a little bit technical and youll study it later when you study the mental
functions in the second chapter of the Abhidharmakosha [John Stillwell: So the
causes what arises by its own power means its spontaneous so] meaning it
doesnt have to ride on the coattails of another mental function. There are some
mental functions that cant do their job unless another mental function goes
before and drives them afterwards and, and this is not like that, this, this is a
discreet event of the mind that equals to its object by its own accord like
independently, it doesnt have to wait for feeling for example to go to its other
object. It is not for example dependent on you having a good feeling on that
object before you to have its independent, so thats the general feeling of that

but its a little bit technical so I didnt go into it, but it is in the definition and I
couldnt leave it out. [Tom Kylie: So obviously you have a deep ingrained trust in
the object] yeah [Tom Kylie: if you go there without having fear about it] yeah
you have fear also, you have fear also. So it doesnt mean like a spontaneous
object thing that comes up in your mind, it just refers to, does it require that
main awareness for example looks at the object first and then later that the
refuge can look at the object or something. [Tom Kylie: It is very automatic
when fear occurs] It is independent of the other mental functions, basically.
[Student: Its based on training?] Its based on a lot of things mostly fear and
trust right. [:Tom Kylie That wouldnt depend on fear moving first in the mind?]
Ah technically yes, but it is not {chungden} with fear and thats a little tricky.
[Tom Kylie: Is it possible to take refuge without having fear.] No I dont think
so.
[Tom Kylie: It would be dependent on fear.] Right, but it is not dependent on the
main mind, it is not dependent on awareness moving to the object before the
mental function moves to the object. Its, its a tricky thing and Id rather leave
that specific thing when we study, it is not dependent on awareness moving to
the object before the mental function moves to the object. Its a tricky thing and
Id rather leave that specific thing for when we study mind and mental functions,
which we will. [Student: It sounds like it is outside these two things that mind is
divided into.] No, it is a mental function. [Student: It is a mental function.]
Because {sempa}, the movement of the mind is a mental function. It is one of the
mental functions that always goes with mind. Its mind dependent, its, its one
you never lose for all your life, even when you die, {sempa} never stops. [John
Stillwell: Whats {sempa}?] {Sempa} any movement of the mind. The mind
always moves, the mind never stops. [Tom Kylie: Even when Mike Tyson
punches you out.] No, you reach a lower level of consciousness, but are really
not unconsciousness. You dont, feeling is another one, you always have feeling
going on. Feeling is always present when the mind is present. You dont, you
may have a neutral feeling but you are feeling the feeling all the time and there
are other mental functions like that. [Tom Kylie: I promise to be very, very brief.
The three pages that we just got with the text are they numbered one through
three because it is another section from another book?] Its another sections and
I wondered, I thought about numbering them all the way through but Id rather
you keep the one behind the one you got already and next week you get a
different one and you and there will be five sections like that because I dont
want to renumber them and start all over again and I dont want to number
them all the way through and theyre not. They are kind of parts chopped out of
the book. [Student: So if were getting them out of order well contact you.]
Youll be in trouble. [Laughing].

Alright please repeat {semkye} [repeat} {pa ni} [repeat} {shen dun du}{repeat]
{yangday dzokpay} {repeat] {jangchub du} {repeat]
This is the [student: [unclear] to do this?] [Tom Kylie: yes we ought to] [cut]
thats if thats the whole presentation of bodhichitta in Abhisamyamkara
okay[laughing] {Tibetan} Actually there is about four more lines and thats it, so
obviously we need a little [John Stillwell: operation] by the time you get to the
{ Kedrup Tempa Dargye} in the fifteenth century you have ahsixteenth
century you haveits become about sixty, seventy pages, of which you have
three in your head. You can treat this as the short definition of bodhichitta you
going to learn a much longer one tonight. {Semkye, semkye} okay means
bodhichitta, I call it the wish for enlightenment. It goes along, five goes along
with that meaning is {shen dun du} means for the sake of others. {Tibetan} Im
going to spell the word and {du} means the wish. [John Stillwell: So is yangday
total?] {Yang day dzokpay} is a word that means totally total [laughing].
[Student: Yang day?] Samyak sam buddhay in Sanskrit. [Tom Kylie: I have a
question here and it might sound funny and first but total enlightenment is
referring to Buddhahood right? ] Were going to talk about it tonight. If you, I, I,
well ask your question [Tom Kylie: Well my question is and you dont have to
answer it now, but heres my question. Im assuming that total enlightenment
refers to Buddhahood and Im assuming by its very nature the word
Buddhahood also for the sake of others so if thats true it would be a sort of
redundancy.] I understand that, I understand your question and it is what I
thought it was and it is a good question and were rushing to the top of that.
[Student: Okay] [Student: Im sorry [unclear] {yangday dzopay?] Yeah, it means,
its a, its a translation of the Sanskrit prefix which means samyak meaning
totally complete [Tom Kylie: I guess ending with the question, is it possible to
achieve total enlightenment without the clinging for the benefit of others..?]
Okay its not. Okay. So bodhichitta {semkye} is defined as the wish for
enlightenment for the sake of others, the wish to achieve enlightenment for the
sake of others. Tonglens like that, sorry, okay. Bodhichitta is the wish to achieve
total enlightenment for the sake of others. So whenever I ask you the definition
of bodhichitta you can give that. Thats the cheap one, thats what you give in
the monastery when you dont remember the other one which is {shen dun du
yangday dzopay} okay.
[Student: Lower nirvana is referred to as enlightenment?] Well talk about it,
well talk about it and I know you wanna learn the longer definition right? So

[Tom Kylie: Wait, no, no, no, no.][ unclear] I can wait. In fact I want you to
write down the definition, Ill, Ill, you can use your text. Were gonna work from
page three. I dont encourage you to write on it, I encourage you not to write on
it, I encourage you to write on the back of the page next to it. I write a little
number one and then a note to number one, like a footnote. Its a very beautiful
line to memorise, I am going to ask the Tibetan track students to memorise it.
You should know the short definition. Basically there are two elements going on,
youre, you want, you want total Buddhahood and you want to help other
people and thats basically it, its like refuge which had two elements. What were
they? [Student: Fear and belief] Fear and belief yeah. So now with Bodhichitta we
have two elements, one is to reach Buddhahood and one is to help others. We
call it {drung me nyi temkye sem???} it means the mind that has two wishes. The
mind that is, that has two wishes. [Student: Did you say help all or others?] He
says others meaning all other beings okay and yourself you know.[Student:
Same thing then say] Yeah this is a short definition. [Student: Same thing
saying others and saying all.] Yeah, all others. All right, so go to page two in that
text. We are going to talk about the second half, the English. So definition of the
greater way's wish for enlightenment is as follows. Greater way means
Mahayana all right, Mahayana. Why you have to call bodhichitta Mahayana?
Isnt all bodhichitta Mahayana? I mean we are going to start, this is what we do
in the monastery day after day. Why, why is Mahayana bodhichitta? Isnt that a,
what you call it, [Tom Kylie: Redundant.] Redundant. Isnt it when you reach
bodhichitta that you reach Mahayana right? You gotta know that, gaining
bodhichitta is what it means to become Mahayana and until you have true
bodhichitta you have not reached the Mahayana path. You can call yourself
Mahayanist Buddhist but you are not. You are not a Mahayana person okay
alright. Until you have genuine bodhichitta so why do they say Mahayana
bodhichitta. I found it in a sutra many years ago {semkye} is the Tibetan word
for one of the two Tibetan words for Bodhichitta. There are three. {Semkye}
means to get the mind, to generate the mind to develop the mind and it s the
mind that wants to get Buddhahood but theres three Buddhahoods and this is
very important in your school. What hat are you wearing this course? Whats
school youre in this course. Do you know? [Student: Madhyamika Svatantrika.]
Youre in Madhayamika [Student: No Madhayamika.Student: Prasangika]
Svatantrika [Student: Oh] We are in the lower Madhayamika school, you
spend twelve years in that and you get to have four years in the Prasangika.
[Tom Kylie: Are we in the higher school temporarily acting like were in the
lower school?] Youre always that. [Student: Okay I thought that.] I said what
hat are you wearing, I didnt say what you are. You say what hat are you
wearing you know you go in the monastery and the guy says, Give me a

definition of bodhichitta. You say well what hat do you want me to put on.
What do you want. [Tom Kylie: Svantantrika is wearing Prasangik hats.] which
all the great scholars were right, yeah.] [Student: {Semkye}to develop the mind
and the end of the sentence please.] Well {semkye} means to develop the mind
and it means the mind that wants to get Buddhahood and theres three kinds of
Buddhahood. [Student: Thank you.] The lower Madhyamika school which is
called Svatantrika. [Student: How do you spell Madhyamika?] By the way the
word Madyam came into English as what? [ Tom Kylie: Medium] Yeah, okay.
Its the root of the English word medium. Madyam Svatantrika. This doesnt
have anything to do with tantra. It is the same root. It has nothing to do with
tantra, okay its a school. Its the lower Madhyamika school. They say there are
three tracks, we only have two right? [John Stillwell: Madhayamika Svatantrika
says there are three tracks?] Yeah, Svatantrika says there are three distinct tracks
[John Stillwell: Buddhahood?] and that each track at its end a final goal for that
track and those three go you can think of it and I once drew, we did a book
about it once and its like this. There are three tracks going on and the lowest
track is called listeners or Shravakas and you may have read about it in books.
They go though, you dont need toIm not going to test you on this I just want
to hear their belief because it is important.
They believe that there is five paths the way the others go through {tsokjong,
tonglong milop} and then you reach arhat [John Stillwell: what are the [unclear]]
nirvana [John Stillwell: what are the English for those five paths you just
named?] I dont want to go through the whole thing, this you study in the
thirteenth year. [Laughing] I m sorry about the eleventh year. This is all right,
talking rubbish here. But its accumulation, preparation, seeing, meditation and
[student: no more learning] no more learning. Theyre called, they called
listeners because they hear Mahayana Dharma, [student: oh but they cant teach]
they can repeat it to others but they cant practice it. [Tom Kylie: They dont get
it]They can even repeat it what the Buddha said about Mahayana, but they
cant do it. [Tom Kylie: Presumably because they dont get it or they dont see
the value in it or they do but they do something mentally defective]. They
cant their concern to reach their own nirvana. Yeah, basically not enough
intelligence. Basically thats them. They are a couple of aeons beyond us but
laughing] [Student: unclear] no [student: because they have achieved wisdom
which some of the bodhisattvas havent achieved] Ah [John Stillwell: So we
compare them] Well we call them disciples who are dull, dull-witted. [Tom
Kylie: Actually on this very point in Thailand in February I spoke with a Western
Hinayana monk on this subject and I said what, Dont you believe how are
Buddhas, how do Buddhas come into to existence and if you cant practice

anything and he said Oh no, it is possible but it is so far beyond that forget
about even trying to do it.]
Second track is self-made Buddhas, theyre one step up. [Student: These are the
solitary realizers?] Yeah that is what they call it, but it is a bad translation.
Theyre self-made Buddhas. [Student: Now the only people that are call them
self-made Buddhas are the Madhyamika ] Ill explain it. Solitary realizers is a
bad translation. [Student: Its in the book.] And then theres Mahayana. [Student:
Are self-made Buddhas have five paths?] Yeah, in their own track. And in
Mahayana you go through your own five paths and you reach Buddhahood.
[John Stillwell: The same five paths..] [Student: different] They are called the
same thing but they have different realizations and Iits a long story, this is a
whole subject okay. Its believed by this school that each of these three tracks,
perceives a different kind of emptiness. They dont call it emptiness, they call it
lack of self, selflessness. So these three people all perceive a different kind of
stuff. [Tom Kylie: So saidtantric] There is three degrees of selflessness. The
highest one is emptiness. [Laughing] Okay. I dont know, I dont want to confuse
you. The reason why I brought it up is that these three states are called the three
enlightenments. [Tom Kylie: By?] By the Svantantrikas [Tom Kylie:Right] and in
sutra and I can show you the sutras. [John Stillwell:and so what is the
difference between those three?] So this is the answer to Mr. Kylies question,
why we have to say total enlightenment. Total enlightenment means this one
[tapping on the board]. Buddhahood. No, [Tom Kylie:huh uh] no? [ Tom Kylie:
The question was total enlightenment also known as Buddhahood okay.] But oh,
Ill talk about that later. Now are self-made Buddhas Buddhas? No. They are
called {Sangye} even is Sanskrit they are called Buddha, but they are not real
Buddhas. Are they self-made, what do you think? Can they communion in this
life without a teacher become areach nirvana? [Student: Without a teacher?]
Without a teacher. [Tom Kylie: Sure of course they can.] [Student: No] [Student:
yeah], they do, because they have had trillions of teachers past lives. [Laughing]
And people, you dont, people are uncomfortable with the word self-made
Buddhas so they make up a word like Solitary Realizer and thats not the point.
The word is self-made Buddha but you have to have a teacher to say, Selfmade means they didnt have a teacher in this life but trillions of teachers before.
[Tom Kylie:Yeah] Buddha means not a real Buddha but reached nirvana, but the
Sanskrit word and the Tibetan word is self-made Buddha. [Student: So a better
term would be those who achieve enlightenment, those who when finally
achieving enlightenment didnt have the presence of their teacher.] In that
lifetime [Tom Kylie: Yeah, at that time.] Nirvana or theyre enlightened [Tom
Kylie: Theyre enlightened right.] Theyre track is enlightenment okay. So these

three are called enlightenments and its found in sutra and Ive seen it in sutra
and I found it in sutra and I dont think many people realize but that ah that
for example there was a great saint called Kateyani. He gave a Buddha discourse,
he gave a talk about Buddhism. The listeners, the people in the audience reached
the three stages these people who had this kind of ability wanted to get this
nirvana. People on this track wanted to get this nirvana. People on this track
wanted to get Buddhahood, those are the three {semkyes}. Those are the three
bodhichittas. There are three Bodhichittas. Thats why you have to say Mahthe
greater way is the wish for enlightenment in the text here. Thats why you have
to say Mahayana, wish bodhichitta. [John Stillwell: So what exactly is a listeners
nirvana and a self-made Buddhas nirvana?] Elimination of their bad thoughts.
[John Stillwell: So what is thedifference between the two, between these two?]
[Tom Kylie: and how they got there?] Ah, how they go there. Yeah Id say that.
[Tom Kylie: And the quality?] I dont think theres a quality and difference
between those two. [Student: [Unclear]they perceive emptiness differently
[unclear]] [Tom Kylie: According to the Svatantrika there must be a difference]
Well its because of their cessation, because of them losing their bad thoughts was
perceiving a different kind of selflessness, but I dont want to get into that. This is
a whole subject, there are books written about this book. One of thecan you
go from here to here. Can you do you want to start back over here or do you
skip to here if you already started you know [Student: laughter] and we are not
going to get into it. [Student: In the beginning you said all three can reach what?]
Nirvana it is known as nirvana. [John Stillwell: What is the difference between
Buddhahood and nirvana then?] Its a great question, you tell me, you studied
that. [Student: Well the nirvana is the cessation of suffering for yourself and
Buddhahood is the cessation for yourself and going out to help everyone else]
Nirvana, nirvana, achieved under the influence of Bodhichitta, nirvana achieved
under the influence of a love for all other beings is Buddhahood. Its nice, its
beautiful if youve got, if these two guys had had bodhichitta in their mind when
they got to this point they would have reached Buddhahood. [Student: So really
the difference is almost the activity level. You both had the same nirvana
condition, the difference [unclear] and you lose your knowledge[Kyle: No!] if
you have bodhichitta in your work. [Tom Kylie: So the bodhichitta][Student:
Didnt you say there are three kinds of bodhichitta] Im sorry Mahayana
bodhichitta good correction and thats why the book here says. Im, Im going to
tear it apart, this is what we do in a debate otherwise you think this is all why is it
all so many words. Why doesnt theywhy dont they use this little definition
there. It is okay for Maitreya it is okay for me. [Laughing, laughter] but you
have to expand on it or you cant get it precise. So you do have to say Mahayana
{semkye, tekchen semkye} so now Im not going to rnow when youre

debating you say. Okay listen you know I am talking about Mahayana
Bodhichitta. I am not talking about Mahayana bodhichitta. I am not going to
repeat the word Mahayana bodhichitta tonight. Okay, agreed? [Laugher] You
get it straight when you are debating in the monastery okay. [Student: Can you
explain the difference between the three, the three results, between the three
courses.] This one knows everything, these two dont. This person got rid of all
his suffering, they did also. So from negative side all three of them they stopped
all their suffering, but from positive side now this person knows everything. He
sees everything in the universe in one moment. Everything in the past
everything that is going to be, everything that is. He sees it now. In one moment
he can see it all. That is the difference between these two three. [Tom Kylie:
and also the lower two dont have desire as you would say to apply themselves
to achieve the same in others.] Its a very beautiful subject to debate and theres
beautiful books about it. They always have to come back to here they always
have to come together, they always will come together. How they are woken up
out of their fixation, out of their meditative state is very beautiful. You know the
process by which they get the urge to help other people is very beautiful. It is a
very interesting subject. We are not doing it tonight okay.
Okay definition. Dont forget we are talking about Mahayana bodhichitta now.
This is the bodhichitta, the only bodhichitta you have heard of anyway until
tonight okay. It is that main mental awareness belonging to the Greater Way.
We are gonna tear apart each one. [John Stillwell: What is non-Mahayana
bodhichitta first?) The desire to reach these two levels. The wish for
enlightenment [student: for yourself , so hows that bodhichitta?] [Student: Yeah
right.] Im trying to say there are three bodhichittas and two of them dont
worry about other people. Bodichitta is the wish for enlightenment. They have a
wish for enlightenment. [Students: No, thats not what you said bodhichitta was.]
That was {tekchen semkye}. That was assuming Mahayana bodhichitta when
you talk about {lam sam kye chpe jangsem} you say,Bodhichitta in the three
paths, in the Three Principal Paths and Bodhichitta is different things? You know
when you are talking Three Principal Paths you are talking Mahayana
Bodhichitta and everyone knows that. We are not talking general Bodhichitta.
[Student: There never was general bodhichitta in the first place ] Yeah dont,
people dont know who havent studied [student: yeah thats partly because
bodhichitta is one word] Theres three {semkyes}, Im going to use the word
{semkye} Theres three semkyes which is translated as bodhichitta and {semkye}
means the wish for enlightenment. So is three wishes for enlightenment, two of
them are not called enlightenment, they are just called enlightenment. [Student:
So when at the beginning of teachings I remember, you know, before you go to

a teaching you should develop bodhichitta motivation [unclear] Mahayana

Bodhichitta] that that is always Mahayana bodhichitta and they should have said
that but, but a lot of people dont understand the difference and I wouldnt use
the word Bodhichitta very easily and I would call it semkye okay. Bodhichitta is
{jang sem}. Dont worry about it, just be aware there are three wishes for
enlightenment; two of them are not the wish for total enlightenment and thats
why we have to say Greater Ways wish for enlightenment, Mahayana wish for
enlightenment. Okay we have to go on otherwise we will never finish the
definition.
First it is main mental awareness, it was main mental awareness all right. We are
on page two of the English, but its awareness and its very easy okay and we
can all agree on that or not? [Student: I have not caught up with you yet, excuse
me.] It is awareness, its consciousness, it is not a mental function so is everybody
comfortable with that? Bodhi mind, bodhi mind [student: the wish for
enlightenment is] It is the same as when you wake up out of a deep sleep and
suddenly you are aware. Are you comfortable with that? [Tom Kylie: Is it like
the human being awareness that we have when we wake up and see our room?]
Yeah, raw consciousness without any details. The fact that you are aware.
[Student: What was that defined?] This is now, were into what is bodhichitta,
what are the qualities of bodhichitta. The first quality that I am mentioning is
awareness. I am talking about a specific the word awareness. [Tom Kylie: but
you are talking about a specific kind of raw awareness as opposed to a general
raw awareness that everybody has?] No what I am saying is that if someone
knocks you out and they put smelling salts in your nose and suddenly you, the
whole world came back to 3200you this whole this whole light, this whole
awareness, the general fact is you know, the general, you are not, it is difficult
for you to recognise that, the fact that you are conscious as oppose to dead.
[Laughing, laughter] [Tom Kylie: I understand that part, I understand that part.]
Listen to me let me finish. That consciousness, that raw consiousness [student:
Yeah] bodhichitta is that kind of consciousness and not the kind of thing where
you, Oh I love him. Not that specific state of mind which I love this person.
[Student: So not a mental function.] It is not a mental function, it is the mind
itself . You dont have a problem with that. Youre not going to debate me on
that? [Student: Is it the nature of the mind?] No, it is the fact that you [Student:
No mind at all [laughing]], it is your main mind and it is opposed to this, I am
opposed to him, I am jealous of him, I am angry at him, I wonder what the line is
made of.
[Tom Kylie: I think] It is just the fact that you are aware [Tom Kylie: you
talked about two different things. That awareness that you are talking about that

comes with the smelling salts is common to all beings.] Im saying that [Tom
Kylie: right, so how do you distinguish that between me and that between
somebody of the greater way?] We have two more paragraphs to go [Laughing]
[Students: [unclear] that is what I said.] Do you feel comfortable with me
explaining bodhichitta as your main mind, not the mental function. Not love,
not a wish, not a desire, not an aspiration. It is just the fact that you are aware?
[Student: Obviously you are gonna be transformed once you have achieved
this.] No, you are still aware of other stuff too. [John Stillwell: You are saying
that once you are aware you have a wish for enlightenment.] Now thats, thats
better. Now I should get a debate lined in [laughing]. [Student: [unclear] should
be like that.] Were gonna get other adjectives, we are gonna call it more stuff,
but I am saying the basic state of mind is not like a wish, it is not like a love, it is
not like a desire, it is not like an aspiration. Its just raw consciousness. You feel
comfortable with that, you are not going to debate me on that? [Tom Kylie: No I
dont..] [Student: It sounds like] I have a lot of trouble with that, Atisha had
trouble with it and Atisha did,nt accept it. [Tom Kylie: I think I dont have trouble
with what you are getting at, I have trouble with the way you are presenting it.]
It is a difficult point. [Tom Kylie: You are making a comparison between the raw
basic consciousness that any being has when it is not knocked out by Mike
Tyson [Tom Kylie Yeah [Tom Kylie : If that is what you are talking about.
That] Unqualified no [Tom Kylie: That seems me to be common to all beings,
Buddhas or cockroaches you know] Accepted but what I am saying is [Tom
Kylie: Thats the basis and top of that] On top of that we are going to add
many characteristics [Tom Kylie: Yeah] but you do not feel uncomfortable that it
is specific love or a specific kind of feeling or specific [Tom Kylie: No, I dont feel,
no,no.] It is just that something[ Tom Kylie: The law is permeated something,
then that is the way it is gonna be. If something is, you know, completely
imbued, is that the word Im looking for?] [Student: Uh, hum] [Tom Kylie: then
thats the way it is.} Well, you can be imbued with other attitudes that are a
mental function. [Student: Well when you are not imbued with the attitude of the
Greater Way [unclear]] Okay. Well anyway there is a big fight about it in
[Student: [unclear] supposed to be natural it is not supposed to be a mental
function. It is supposed to be like it exits not a mental function. [Unclear] its a
fear] Well well leave it at that. [Tom Kylie: When I wake up in the morning I see
my room and I, and then without any effort Im aware, but I am aware of myself
as a human being on planet Earth etc. now if you trynna say for the people who
have this bodhichitta, the same thing happens to them when they wake up they
look they know they have bodhichitta and that everything is like that when they
look at it, theres no problem, but if what you are trying to say is that, that that
basic awareness itself .] Unqualified [unclear]. No I would never say that. Thats

not what I am saying at all, you know that is simple. [Tom Kylie: Because for the
human being, they are human the basic awareness manifests itself as being a
human [unclear] bodhichitta] No I am not saying that theres two, there are
many more, every word here has a special function [Student:but it would be
good if you get a raise] what I am saying its main mind according to {rang luk}
according to our own system and there was bitter fight, I mean ah [Student:
[unclear]] laughing [laughter] that the current, the Buddhas belief is that it is
main mind. The reason it is main mind, the reason its raw consciousness is not
anything that you have said, I understand what you are saying that bodhichitta
is the high state that it should imbue my mind the way my consciousness can
[unclear]my mind. It is not the reason in the book. The reason given in the book
is that you have two, one of the reasons here given in the book is you have, you
have two desires at that moment. What are they, when you get bodhichitta, true
bodhichitta you have two desires, you have two aspirations? [Student: To
achieve enlightenment] you want to help others [student: and to] and you
want to become a Buddha. If and the explanation I have heard that I like the
best is that according to Buddhism you cant focus on two objects at the same
time, a normal person, a Buddha can. When you are looking at my noses colour
you cant focus on my ears colour, specifically, impossible. When you are having
anger you cant have at the same moment another state of mind. They can come
so fast that you think they are one and in Buddhism they say it is like lining up
rose petals on a target and shooting an arrow and as it passes through each petal
ch..ch..ch..ch..ch.. it looks like its thwacked, it looks like it went all at once, but
actually if you think about it there are milliseconds of your mind, they appear
that you can have anger and love and something in a short period of time but
Buddhism says that it is an illusion, it is happening so fast that it seems to one
thing but it is not. It is really separate states of mind coming up it is impossible to
have those two mental functions at the same time. You have to speak in terms of
the mind which contains those two mental functions. You have to speak in terms
of the main mind which, which is coming along with those two functions. Think
of the main mind as this big guard who has two arms. It has to be main mind to
have these two arms. You cant have two arms floating along on their own. It
has to be a mind that possesses these two wishes, otherwise you these two
wishes floating out there on their own, so it has to be a main mind and thats the
position, thats why you have to deposit it as the main mind. [Student: Is main
mind in tandem with the two concepts?] Yeah and in tandem is a beautiful for
what, for what I want to mention next, okay. Its the idea of matching, matching,
it is main mind matched with those two desires. What do I mean matched? We
will study it in the Abhidharmakosha, but matched basically means in five ways
they are, what did you use? In tandem, they are working in tandem in five ways

and thats true, for when youve got jealousy you have to be aware right and in
awareness it is the mother mind and in jealousy is one of the things going on in
the mind. You say, I have jealousy in my thoughts, so in the thoughts means in
the mind, in the main mind as the two desires. [Student: How can there be two
different mental functions?] Yeah bodhichitta would always be full, so the way in
which the mind is a mental functionam I losing you today? [Laughing,
laughter.] You are awful quite. [Tom Kylie: so there are main mind as there
arewhat. How many different kinds of main mind are there?] Only one.
[Student: Only one.] No I am sorry, six [Tom Kylie: Six, so the six] No I dont
want to get into it now. [Student: So can you tell us what we should be writing?]
Okay, I want to be at the end of this class, what I would like you to know and
what your homework is, and if I ask you why is it graded this way, why do we
have to say Mahayana bodhichitta? Why? Why do I have to say I am going to
talk tonight about Mahayana Bodhichitta. Why. [Tom Kylie: Because some
people]Theres two other kinds [Tom Kylie:because to some other people
there are two other kinds of Buddhahoods] Right [Tom Kylie: and the mind
aspires to those kinds of Buddhahoods or enlightenments is also referred to by
them as bodhichitta because we dont want to] confuse [Tom Kylie: confuse
what we consider actual the bodhichitta with their somewhat lesser virtues.]
Thats alright, thats, thats [student: I guess that is not a positive imputation for
what Mahayana bodhichitta is] no its not but it is correct [student:
apparently its not] its why we put the Mahayana in there. Well get to
[unclear] later its coming. Okay Lynn, my second question is to you. Why, why
is bodhichitta got to be your main, your raw awareness. Why do we just call it
the desire for Buddhahood the wish for Buddhahood, why does it have to be
your consciousness[Tom Kylie: Or Mahayana Bodhichitta] Yeah, I said I am
not going to repeat it[Lynn: I dont understand the question. Come on. ] Okay,
lets say you feel love for someone right [Lynn: Okay] There are two states of
mind going on. There are two mental events going on. One of them is that you
are conscious [Lynn: Uh hum] if you werent if I knocked you out would you
still love the guy? [Laughing] You cant feel love if your main mind is shut down
[Lynn: Uh hum] If your main mind is running then you can have an emotion
inside of the main mind okay. [Lynn: Okay] So, so my next question is do you
think that that the desire to help, to achieve Buddhahood for all others is main,
that main mind or is it a feeling in the main mind? [Student: It is the feeling in the
main mind] It is actually two feelings. Its the feeling I want to become a Buddha
and its the feeling that I want to help other people and it is for that reason we
have to call it the main mind because something has to hold those two feelings at
the same time. [Tom Kylie: You can have them at the same time] [Student: You
can] Not technically [laughing] okay. Think of it as the place to put the two

thoughts. You have to be aware before you can love with your mind, if I knock
you out, forget having love. [Lynn: Right [unclear] so bodhichitta is the main
mind. [Tom Kylie: there is a whole bunch of other thoughts too. You just said
announced two of them.] Theres this feeling going on, awareness. Are you
okay? Are you alright? [Student: Yeah.] Sure. [Student: Yeah.] Sure [Student:
Yeah, I cant concorde with it] Didnt you ever wonder when they say bodhi
mind, Buddha mind. You say I have only got in English too you say, I have only
got one mind. What are you talking about? You know they say the mind that
wants to be enlightened, the enlightened mind, you know I have one mind, it is a
bad translation. You know Tibetans are always saying mind when you are
saying thought because how many minds do you have? [Tom Kylie: One
mind.] One mind I mean in English it means [Tom Kylie: Mind.] the main mind
so maybe Lynn you can call it the difference between this. I am asking you this.
Is bodhichitta your mind or is bodhichitta some thoughts in your mind? Thats a
good way to put it.
[Students: [unclear]] Lets stick to that. This is a real important point. [Lynn:
[Unclear] some thoughts in your mind, it is both. Its your mind and the
thoughts that your mind has.] Not a bad answer okay, but most people would
say its the thoughts right. [Lynn: So its the second, the thoughts that are in your
mind.] Yeah and what Buddhism says with what the Buddhist meditators say,
Dont think that way. It is your mind. [Lynn: Is that the two thought?] It has
the two thoughts. [Lynn: Our mind] with the two thoughts. [Lynn: It has the
past, it hast the ah] [Tom Kylie: Both the mind, and the two thoughts in the
mind.] No, it is the mind that has the two thoughts [Lynn: Its the mind that]
[Student: its a mental function] [Student: the power to even have][Student:
it is closest to a mind than a mental function][Tom Kylie: Do you mean the mind
that is capable of having those two thoughts, is that an easier way to put it?] No,
Im asking you again. Is bodhichitta whichs consists of two thoughts right. I
wanna to help people and I wanna become a Buddha so I can help people. Is it a
thought or is it a mind that has those thoughts? [Student: Its the thought.] Its
the thought. It really is the thought and Atisha held that view andand other
and Maitreya did not. Maitreya says its your mind. Now why? [Lynn: Did your
mind win without those two thoughts?] No, good point. It is your mind when it
has those two thoughts. [Tom Kylie: But how can your mind have two
thoughts?] Oh your mind has thoughts all the time, no? [Tome Kylie: No, two
thoughts. It flux all the day between the two otherwise the rows] Yeah you
can say it is fluctuating between the two, alternating so quickly that you cant tell
the difference. [ Student: Why do we format ,what if we say, what if we say okay
what if the thought was fear or jealousy] Yeah [student: Would that be described
as mind? ]You wanna know if that is mind or thought. It has been accepted by

everyone as being a thought. [Student: Okay, so this is the only exception.]

And it is very important that is why we call it Buddha mind that is why we call it
chitta, chitta means mind. Chitta means main mind. [Student: This is the only
sense that relies on other thoughts like jealousy...] Its a slightly different point.
It, it is the only place in Buddhism where an attitude is described as your main
mind, as your mind. [Student: So why?] None of the thoughts inside your mind.
[Student: Why, why?] You struggle with it. I mean Maitreya said so. That I
mean in Buddhism we have to show two things. You have to an authority said it
andand it makes sense. [Student: Why does it make sense?] [Laughing: You
need the authority part it okay. [Student: Once you have achieved] Maitreya
said it and Asanga said it and Asanga said it in two places. [Student: Maybe gotta
keep working on it, no really once you have achieved it.] Apparently there is
some importance to this question. Atisha felt it was not your mind. He thought it
was a thought in your mind. Maitreya didnt say that and the great
commentaries didnt say that. [Student: But they have nothing to with what] I
believe [Student: more like the nature of mind because it should be there ever
present than] Ive never seen it explained that way, no. I have never seen
that the explanations Ive seen are that it is two thoughts. So it has to be the
mind that has those two thoughts to have a one thing which is Buddha mind.
[Student: Is is also because once you have it you dont lose or that] No you can
lose it. [Student: Is it to do with the fact that it is your pure nature?] No it has
nothing to do with it. [Student: Is it possible that that is the only instance where
the mind can simultaneously have two thought because the nature of the
thoughts?] [Tom Kylie: We didnt say that they could simultaneously have two
thoughts. We said it was alternating very quickly between the two but does that
mean it could dwell for a bit on one of them and then slowly alternate to the
other one sort of thing [Laugher] or has it have a quality to it that it is only going
so quickly between the two that it always seems to be] Ill talk about it. I not
even sure that should say that it cant have two different types and theres a
technical reason for that and we are not going to get into it. Lets focus on one of
the few. [Student: But first didnt you say the definition of mind is Mahayana
bodhichitta is awareness of consciousness, not a mental function.] Right I did say
that. [Student: Its the main mind.] Its the main mind that has [unclear students
talking over each other.] [John Stillwell: Even though the thoughts dont occur
simultaneously] I dont wanna draw on that[John Stillwell: But thats your
reason for why it is main mind because they dont occur simultaneously
[unclear]] [Student: Its not awareness of trying [unclear]] [Laughing] No
struggle with it, struggle with it. No struggle with it. I mean its an important
point. [Tom Kylie: We are. [Laughter] Struggle with us please.] Maitreya,

Asanga and another commentator, another famous commentator. Ive forgotten

it. [ John Stillwell: We have no problem what people are saying it that way. We
are trying to understand why.] No, apparently its important, apparently it is
very important and Im not satisfied with the explanations that I have got. The
best one I heard and the one I like the best is, is that it because it has two
thoughts you have to speak in terms of the whole which contains the two.
[John Stillwell: could say lets forget the two thoughts then right, lets just say
there is one thought right.] Theres not [laughing] [John Stillwell: Wait, wait wait]
[John Stillwell: Well there is but not without bodhichitta] [John Stillwell: Lets say
the mind is only holding] Lets say it were like anger [John Stillwell: Wait, wait,
wait] holding one object [John Stillwell: lets say the mind is only holding one
object only the wish to be a Buddha, flickering, alternating with slowly or fast
with the desire to help other people okay. The mind is still holding that one
thought right so if bodhichitta were a thought and not main mind it could even
hold one thought. You see my point?] Well then anger will have to be main mind
and not a mental function. [John Stillwell: Say that again.] Then any other
emotion will have to be main mind also. [John Stillwell: Well no, no] [Student:
No] because [unclear] with you [John Stillwell: No the main mind is holding one
thought the main mind, the main mind is holding the anger. Bodhichitta is
holding the main mind is holding the wish to be a Buddha.] I dont mind that
sounds [unclear] [John Kylie: I think we have gotten back to the original
question I had because isnt it implied in Buddhahood itself for the sake of others
because I mean there is no Buddha without for the sake of others? So to achieve
Buddahood] Theres two[John Kylie: for the sake of others is a redundancy
right or are there or are there Buddhas out there who have achieved] No there
is no thing it is aspiring to achieve [John Kylie: for the purpose of ] You can
aspire to achieve some for some selfish reason you wouldnt ever get it but you
could aspire for another reason. [John Kylie: But you would, but it would come
full circle then, you would be aspiring which is something for the sake of others.
So how could you not aspire to it for the sake of others since it in of itself.] How
could people take robes for selfish reasons since it is stated in Vinaya that you
do. You can and people have. They say and it is a bad argument [laughing] [John
Kylie: No, no,no,no the definite if you are going to misunderstand what
Buddhahood thats fine that is not what I am talking about.] By definition they
are misunderstanding it[John Kylie: But are there Buddhas who exist for some
reason other] No obviously not. [John Kylie: No so then that is a redun]
there are other people who aspire to it for other reasons. [John Kylie: But then
they do not know what they are aspiring to.] Are there other people who aspire
to it for other reasons? [John Kylie: Yes.] Yes. Okay finish [John Kylie: Thats not
Buddhahood, they may think they are aspiring] Techinically alright. Ah, so its

main awareness you struggle with it. I have struggled with it for about sixteen
years. [Student: [unclear]] I asked my lama again and he said, Well it is a
difficult question and Atisha actually didnt accept it lower and lower. Okay you
didnt see it [laughing, laugher] Maybe he is wiser than I am.
Okay mental awareness. Why do we have to say mental awareness? Isnt it
obviously a mental, are there any other kinds of awareness, are there any other
kinds of conciousness? [Student: Five consciounesses.] Yeah the five sense
consciousnesses. There are six awarenesses, there are six conciousnesses. So who
on earth is going to mistake bodhichitta for the awareness of good smells and
the rest of them? Awareness of sweet sounds in a disco? Why isnt it, what did
you say? Superfloredundant to say mental awareness. Isnt it obviously a
mental awareness, isnt it obviously a thought and not a sensation of smell or
something.
Is there anybody who might have a similar consciousness it its ear or something
like that or its eye. Is that even possible or why do we bother to say mental or
they see thing [knocking] is incomprehensible. It is inconceivable. The Buddha
hears everything that was ever eaten in the universe ever. [Student: or is not.]
[Student: all the six senses?]Yeah [Student: Simultaneously?] Simultaneously.
[Student: Simultaneously?] He hears the warmth of every person touching every
other person who ever did and ever will. He is a different kind of being.
[Student: Is this Shakyamuni Buddha?] No any Buddha. [Student: So any
Buddha.] So that is meant to exclude that possibi we are not talking about the
ear consciousness of a Buddha which also fits most of the rest of the definition
okay. We want to make it mental. [Student: So he hears things that are being
said and that will be said.] I didnt sayI said he can smell everything that ever
will be said. He can hear everything that will ever be touched. [Laughter,
laughing] Okay, he is different from us and it is very difficult when you are in the
monastery and you have been through years of study how the minds works,
how the senses can work, how senses have to be objects specific and then you
get to the eighth chapter of this book and you throw it out of the window
[laughing] you know, okay. [John Stillwell: What happens to the main mind
when it is not occupied with bodhichitta? Does the main mind become
something else?] It can have other thoughts, yeah. [John Stillwell: Then
bodhichitta is a thought in the main mind?] Whew, now you are getting me into
this corner. I accept the viewpoint of Maitreya. The main mind which has the two
thoughts. The twoyou should be asking me when I am perceiving emptiness
directly and I cannot frame a thought, do I lose my bodhichitta for the period of
my meditation? [Student: Yeah in a way, feeling a mental condition.] And they
say no. [John Kylie: Im sure Maitreya [unclear]] [John Stillwell: For it has to]

For that moment it exists in the mind and it is not some thought present in the
mind. Its a big debate. [John Kylie: Well maybe it is present in the mind in some
other form of thought.] Cos if you have ever beenwhen you go though that,
when you go through that experience of perceiving emptiness directly youll see,
you cant even be aware that you are having it. You dont think youIm sorry
you are aware that you dont think Lynn is perceiving emptiness, Im perceiving
emptiness, you cant think that during that deep perception of emptiness. So if
you cant think that how can you wish, oh I wish I could help all sentient beings
now. [Student: There is no I] Cant you perceive yourself at that moment. So do
you lose your bodhichitta for that period and does a bodhisattva the day after
he gets bodhichitta I mean when he is eating when he is in the road when
somebodys about to run over him with a taxi, does he ever think about
something else you know and does he lose bodhichitta for ten seconds or and
they say no it is {sempa} it permeates his mind. [John Stillwell: It is permeating
his mind, it is not his mind] Right, difficult. [ Student: What is it that permeates
his mind?] Good point, bodhichitta. Which is the mind. [Laughing, laughter]
[Students: [unclear] my word] I didnt like it as an argument, I have never seen it
as a justification for why it is main mind, that is what I am saying and I dont
believe there is any such presentation in my knowledge. Okay, focus on
achieving total enlightenment. Why do they say total? [John Kylie: For those
who dont really understand what enlightenment is.] Well theres these two socalled enlightenments which are not there. [Student:[unclear]] Thats why we
have to say total enlightenment. There are enlightenments that are not total and
didnt you ever wonder about it you know? I always did, I always did why did
they always say totally pure enlightenment [John Kylie: There are
enlightenments that are not total but there is only one enlightenment that can
distinguish it between would-be enlightenments and is called total, which is it?]
Its the second one. [John Kylie: The second one, there is only one
enlightenment.] Its a beautiful debate and an important subject and it comes in
this book. It is called {tartu tek par chek te dupa} and it meansthe big debate
are there three tracks? [John Kylie: What is it just the one big track for [unclear]]
The one big track, gimme a break, they have to the hill, they have to go up to
here. Theres only one track [Student: They have to they cant] They always
will, they always do [Student: And why is that?] {Tartu tek par chek te dupa}
[Student: Universal help avail] No different Buddhist schools have different
views [Student: But you have been studying for a very long time [unclear]] and
in the end you must go to Buddha and in the end you must get bodhichitta,
Mahayana bodhichitta [Students: [Unclear]] So the Lam Rim says dont waste
your time. Why start with these lower motivations. You may as well go to
bodhichitta because you are going to end up there anyway. [Student: I am not

sure why [Unclear] which of the two nirvanas are the same] [Student: He
means I have never seen and cant remember any distinction of a major clean
up. It is a long story you could if you want [Student: Why dont you, why dont
you /more accurately destroy one nirvana with two with the why coming out of
it you know.] Ah [John Kiley: Wouldnt that be transparent] no[John Kylie:
or are you a little chicken about it that?]
Okay next, well go one more and then we will have a break. [Laughing.] By the
way I repeat, if you werent learning anything, you know if it were easy you
wouldnt be learning too much. It is hard. I told you in the last class that you
gonna get, gonna get the baby presentation of those three principal paths and
the rest of the five years are more detail and thats what you getting now.
[Student: I didnt know it was going to get more confusing.] [Laughing, laughter]
It is confusing. This point is difficult and I, and it is difficult for me and thats why
youre confused and Ithere is no clearer debate on it than in the monastery.
You got Atisha against Maitreya, I mean. Who are we? [Laughing, laugher] [John
Stillwell: [Unclear]it is difficult enough to get into] It is difficult they are both
enlightened beings and [unclear] to come up with some realization about it.
[ John Stillwell: Is this even] It is actually [unclear] that counts [ John Stillwell: Is
this insignificant point here or are we just debating on it] Dont think its not
[ John Kylie: Ah please!] Dont think its not. The exercise is of debating
seemingly insignificant points is what makes your knowledge of the significant
points firm. [Tom Kylie: Practice.] Yeah, and its the fact that youre arguing
these insignificant points rather than watching TV. You see spending time this
way is keeping you close to the Dharma and thats one function of debating
things thats okay. Youre never gonna sit there in your next retreat and worry
oh my god if this love for other people my main mind or [ John Stillwell: Three
bodhichittas] [Laughter] But you study the three bodhichittas, the three
enlightenments means you gonna to be forced to asked the question theyve
asked. Whats the difference between these nirvanas and Im gonna say what
the difference between what they think emptiness is and the study of what, the
study of the wrong ideas of emptiness is the best way to perceive emptiness and
in fact the first Panchen Lama became the first Panchen Lama because he was a
master at that and he wrote a whole book about it. [ John Stillwell: What
emptiness isnt] What emptiness isnt and hes got a beautiful book and someone
should translate it some day. Theres a devil over here and an angel over here.
And the devil say, Oh emptiness is nothing but thats bad, no siree, and just
runs you know and the angel says, No, no anyone can see that and you get
knocked on the head when you see that. And, and thats not what emptiness is.
And the Devil says, You right, you right, oh emptiness is ah [Student:

Laughing] You know and it is a long and we studied it though for over a year
and it gets more and more and more finer at the end you swear to god the devil
is right because it sounds so good. It sounds like all the dharma ructions you
went through you know and the angel says, Not quite theres a little bit of
problem here and the devil also, hes also not only ego grasping but started
egotism also. Come on taking care of yourself , Im the one who took care of
you all these years you know, worrying about John is really the best I mean if
you dont worry about him whose going to worry. Theres this Hebrew
expression you can teach me you know, if you dont worry about yourself
whose going to worry about yourself. It is actually not the full expression.
[Student: If not now when.] Yeah, no the full expression is well, God give me
the strength not to worry about myself . Theres more to that saying and people
want to quote the first. [Laughing, laughter.] [John Kylie: right or wrong as far
as I go the rest of us and when its wrong I correct it.] [Laughing] Okay anyway
it doesnt hurt. What will happen you will forget all these details but, but because
you debated the details you will always remember them. The main two points.
[John Kylie: And furthermore you cant get to Buddhahood without getting
through this sooner or later right, and Maitreya and Asanga would not have
refered to it otherwise.] They spent time explaining it so, it must be important
okay. [John Kylie: You cant just skip over this understanding, jump right over
that.] So total enlightenment. How about for the benefit of others. Why is that is
that necessary? [John Kylie: It seems to me all of this, all of these is heavier
meaning] Okay so Kylie what you are saying no one aspires to enlightenment
not for the purpose of others? [John Kylie: No I think, I think I wrote down
maybe an easier way to say it. The wish for total enlightenment, the correct
understanding what that total enlightenment entails.] You cannot perceive
correctly what total enlightenment is until you reach that period and thats a
debate we have. [John Kylie: Right but it seems] So everyone, so according to
you cant have bodhichitta until got [unclear] [Laughing] [John Kylie: No, no, no
the point is] seriously [John Kylie: The points is that all the multitudinal
dimensions of enlightenment for apparently being like us the most important
one, one of the most important one is keep in mind that the quality is for the
benefit of all beings because it is, it is present in the aspiration and it is also
present in the result.] Okay which leads me to a little side point. Why do we
study bodhichitta and why do we study refuge? What is the order of this book.
Whose deciding[Student: Is that the three paths or Buddhahood? ] I havent
told you about the structure of the ornament and Im not going to. [Laughing,
laughter] but I will tell you briefly. We are discussing the qualities which typify a
Buddha. There are ten and thats why we got into refuge and thats why we into
Bodhichitta now. It is all in reference to a fully enlightened being. These are

[Student: They are not the same qualities like uncaused, spontaneous?] No, no
these are like ten qualities that are typical of Buddhas and that is how the
Prajnaparamitas start their description of refuge and how discuss, start their
discussion. Thats why we are discussing these subjects in this order. Just so you
know okay. These relate to the ten qualities of a Buddha okay. So for the benefit
of others why we have to put that in a definition. Why is that necessary? [John
Kylie: I would think it is to keep peoples eye on the ball.] [Unclear] [Student:
Thats Mahayana.] Its to, its to block the two kinds of wish for enlightenment.
These are wishes for enlightenment. Okay for lower enlightenment not for full
enlightenment. You have to say it because there are two other kinds of wishes
for enlightenment that are selfish. [John Kylie: I thought just a little earlier we
said that real enlightenment is Buddhahood and these other things are would-be
enlightenment.] No enlightenment? Then what are the three enlightenments that
were talking about? [Student: Nirvana, higher nirvana] They are
enlightenments, three enlightenments. [Student: I know but I have problems
with the word enlightenment.] What hat you got on? What hat are you wearing?
[John Kylie: Im wearing, well] No when you in the Svatantrika you gotta do
Svatantrika, you cant fool around. We believe in three enlightenments and
Mahayana, and you have to define Mahayana Bodhichitta so you can block those
two omnisciounesses to enlightenment. Period. Okay he next stuff is Prasangika.
[John Kylie: So wait a minute though] this takes a lot [unclear] [John Kylie:
Svatantrikas wouldnt have this up there would they?] Sure they would.
[ Students: Thats the definition.] Thats their presentation. [Student: Are these
definitions Svatantrika definitions?] Sure, we are Svatantika for the next few
weeks. [Student: We are now Svatantrika thank you. Is that from the beginning
of this class?] Lower Madhyamika school. [Student: Since the beginning of this
class.] [John Kylie: Does this mean if according to me thats not correct,
Svatantrika.] [Laughing] The Prasnagikas dont accept it. [Tom Kylie: The bottom
line we say the three but were wrong but we dont know.] Ummmmmm [John
Kylie: [Laughing]] By the way Kylie, that is a separate subject it is called {tranye}.
Why did the Buddha teach any of this is all the Buddhas speech. [Students:
[Unclear] I think well take a break okay so well talk about it later. Take a short
break and come back in ten minutes. [Cut]
Equivilant to when the Buddha said, Kill your father, kill your mother. It is not
true you have to interpret it. [Student: Can I clarifybefore the first thing you
said is, The definition of Mahayana Bodhichitta is the awareness of
consciousness not a mental function. The mental function is like the feeling the
thoughts, right, its main mind.] That correct. [Lynn: Then you said to me, Is
bodhichitta the thought? Are you, are you differentiating between bodhichitta

and
[unclear]] No [Lynn: Okay you still saying Mahayana bodhichitta.] It is the main
mind that has. You have to that, you have to write it down. Bodhichitta is the
main mind that has those three thoughts. [Lynn: But before you said, but is it the
main mind that has those two thoughts or is it the thoughts and why it is it the
thoughts and you said yeah. Thats right.] No thats not[[John Kylie: Main
mind and the two thoughts.] Main mind that has the two thoughts. [Student: Is
the main] that possesses the two thoughts . [John Stillwell: It has to be main
mind] [Tom Kylie: Alternately.] [John Stillwell: to contain the two thoughts
otherwise it could not exist in the mind .] Thats the best argument I have ever
heard. [Student: Say that again?] [Student: Must be dying in order to help.] [John
Stillwell: If it is the point of main mind it would not go far, so if you have a
thought you would lose your bodhichitta, bodhichitta it wasnt main mind.]
[John Stillwell: Actually Michael when I think of it in terms of Buddhahood its a
continuum, its a short [unclear]] [Cut]
[Unclear] I just want you to listen. [Unclear] Just listen and well finish on time,
we can finish on time. The first question is give the whole definition on page two
alright. You just gonna write it out and Ill tell you why and you dont have to
memorise this. I just want you to go through the exercise of writing it out. The
next question are that you are gonna be looking for definitions to answer the
rest of the question. Question number two. What thing is not this wish for
enlightenment but might be confused with this wish for enlightenment if we left
the word main out of the definition. Like if I didnt say main mind, if I just said it
is the thought that youd like to have enlightenment, what might be the
confusion. [Student: [unclear] between Mahayana and bodhichitta.] Why does
Maitreya have to put mind in the definition? [Student: Main.] Main. Why do we
have to put main. [Student: Because there are two types.] [Student: Because there
are two thoughts, two different thoughts.] Yeah, I mean the thing that people
might be confused is that one of those thoughts is itself bodhichitta. That is what
he has to say the mind which holds those two thoughts. That is why he has to
say main. Why did he put main in there? He is trying to prevent you from
thinking it is only one or two of these thoughts. It is both of the thoughts
together. You cant have two thoughts together. So it is the mind that is hold
those two thoughts. The word main is meant to prevent someone thinking that
bodhichitta is a wish. [Student: You dont really want to destroy anything?]
Right we carry on. [Student: Happy you know.] [Laughing, laughter.] I dont
mind go ahead and write. Make yourself notes, so dont get distracted otherwise
you wont. [Student: Could you repeat yourself?] The reason we put the word
main, the definition, is that we dont want people to think that just one of those

thoughts could be bodhichitta. Its not. Its both of the thoughts together is the
mind that is holding both of the thoughts together. Thats why we have to say
main mind. What is the translation do I use for bodhichitta? What was it in that
book? [[John Stillwell: Which book?] The Tsongkhapa book. [John Stillwell: Oh,
you used the simple one] The wish for enlightenment. Is Bodhichitta a wish, a
wish? [Student: Two wishes.] Its two wishes. You cant call something two things
so we call it the main mind that has those two wishes and that is why we have to
say mind. Its really two wishes. [Tom Kiley: Its the cohesion of those two
wishes?] Which is impossible so you have to say it is the mind that has those two
wishes, it is the mind that has those two thoughts. [Student: [unclear]] [Tom
Kiley: Even if it means something that connects [unclear]] I understand. Okay
number three. What thing is not this wish but might be confused with it if we left
out the word mental awareness . If there were any such thing as any other kind
of
awareness. [Student: Yeah the Buddhas] Yeah, the Buddhas sensory
consciousnesses. What thing is not this wish for enlightenment, it is not
bodhichitta but might be confused with it if we didnt say mental in the definition
[Student: Before you said you hear with your..] Toe, the Buddha hears with his
toe [Student: So you can interchange like, like theres no like hearer and feeler
and] Right the Buddha [Student: but it is still the same sense] The Buddha hears
everything in the universe that happened and will ever happen with his toe.
[Student: But he feels with his, I dont know with his eyes] Yeah, yeah, yeah,
he feels the [??} with his eyes. [Student: But he loses his sensories and
consciousnesses the reason ???} That is why you have to say mental and this is
the way I want to handle these definitions, because if you understand why each
word is there the you understand the definition and in fact that is what we spend
all our time learning in the monastery. Okay, why is it called mental awareness,
because we wanna say those are the Buddhas senses, does the Buddhas sense
awareness have bodhichitta? [Student: Yes.] You have lots right. He has that
ultimate mind. Itd not bodhichitta, its mental. Okay and thats why we have to
put in the word mental [Student: You mean the Buddha cant have bodhichitta
with his nose?] Apparently not. [Student: Is he aware of nice feelings but not
bodhichitta?] He can know all things with every thought object, he can know.
[Student: So bodhichitta can only be achieved through a mental] No, I think
we can have a good debate on that. Ill ask my lama, Ill debate it. If the nose of
the Buddha can perceive emptiness, the Buddha can perceive emptiness by
smelling. Why cant we have bodhichitta by smelling. [Student: could you say
that again?] The Buddha does have [unclear] [Student: Hes already there.] Well if
he didnt have bodhichitta he wouldnt be Mahayana. [Students:[Unclear]] The
reason why we say mental awareness is we dont want people to think that
sensory awareness of the Buddha, which is extraordinary could be bodhichitta.

[Tom Kiley: Which could be anything else but] Looks like that, okay. [John
Stillwell: Why dont you want the sensory awareness of the Buddha?] Okay
question, the next question. What would happen, what thing is not this wish and
might be confused with it if we left out the words belonging to the greater way
and I didnt tell you that yet. In here it says, why do, why do we have say here it
is the main mental awareness that belongs to [unclear] Is there any love of this
[unclear] to looking to Buddhahood for the sake of all other beings thats not
Bodhichitta, thats not Mahayana bodhichitta? The reason to focus to this for all
sentient beings thats not Mahayana. There is, there is, I have to teach it to you.
[Student: Oh no.] There is a little place right[Student: Which is before that
which produces Mahayana] Yep [Tom Kylie: it is Mahayana in a sort of prenatal state.] Its called[Student: Sugar cane bodhichitta, it comes and goes]
[Cut]
Mandala offering
Dedication.
.

TYPING TWO OF CLASS TWO

Course II: Buddhist Refuge
Class three: Bodhichitta and Mind
November 10, 1993
Transcriber: ???

Poofread - May 2003

[cut] it's the way it is, it's what Mike Tyson when he punches you [laughter] it's
what you lose, that's main mind, main mind just means consciousness, just your
raw awareness of...it's a miracle if you think about it, you know, the fact that you
are aware...where does that come from? how does that happen? you know, it's,
it's like some kind of miracle, it's more a miraculous than a planned or anything,
it's how, how is it that you know anything? how is it that you are aware [student:
[unclear]] and that's called main mind...and then mental functions are, are
focused at particular things...jealously is focused at someone else's
achievements...you know anger is focused at someone else's face or the way
they speak to you or...so each of those mental events is a mental function and
then main mind is a mental event but it's not a particular function, it's just there,
it's just aware, so sometimes there's a thing where some kinds of mental
functions depend on main mind to shift and then they go with it, then theyre
not acting on their own accord, but but going for refuge does, going for refuge
has a specific object, and it will go to that object without the...it doesn't ride on
the coattails of a of raw awareness, it doesn't ride on the coattails of another, of
another mental function, it's it's independent, it it doesn't depend on
another mental function to move somewhere before...so it can go with it
[student: so wouldn't that be spon spontaneous-- rising?]
that's what by its own accord or however I translate it - that's what that means,
and it's a little bit technical, and you'll study it later when you study the mental
functions in the second chapter or the [b: Abidharmakosha]
[student: so the cause that arises of its own power means it's spontaneously-arises]
Meaning that it doesn't have to ride on the coattails on another mental function,
there are some mental functions that can't do their job unless another mental
function goes before and drives them afterwards, and and this is not like that
this this is a a discrete event of the mind and it goes to its object, by its own
accord, by independently, it doesn't have to wait for feeling, for example, to
go towards that object, it's not, for example, dependent on you having a good
feeling about that object before you can have that, its its independent, so that's
the general meaning of that, but it's a little technical, so I didn't go into it, but it's
in the definition and I couldn't leave it out.

[student: obviously you have a very deep ingrained trust in the object]
yeah
[student: if, if you if you go there without having to think about it]
Yeah and you have fear also, you have fear also, so it doesn't mean like a
spontaneous thing that comes up in your mind, it just refers to: does it require
that main awareness for example, looks at the object first and then later that the
refuge can look at the object or something like that.
[student: so it's very automatic when the fear occurs]
It's independent of the other mental functions, basically.
[student: but it's based on training?]
It's based on a lot of things, mostly fear and trust, all right. But that's
[student: so it wouldn't be dependent on fear moving first in the mind?]
Technically yes but it's, it's not {sung den} with fear and that's a little tricky, that's
a little tricky.
[student: I mean is it possible to take refuge without having fear?]
No, I don't think so
[student: --it would be dependent on fear...]
Right, but it's not dependent on, the main mind on a it's not dependent on on
awareness moving to the object before the mental function moves to the object,
it's a it's a tricky thing and I'd rather leave that specific thing for when we study
mind and mental functions which we will
[student: but it sound's like it's outside of these two things that mind is divided
into]
No, it is a mental function--

[student: it's a mental function...]

Yeah-cause {sem ba}the movement of the mind is a mental function, it's one of
the mental functions that always goes with mind. It's mind dependentit's .
it's one that you never lose for all your life, even when you die, {sem ba}never
stops.
[student: what is {sem ba}?]
{Sem ba} is any movement of the mind, the mind always moves, the mind never
stops. There's cer.
[student:--so when Mike Tyson punches you out-it's moving [laughter]]
Yeah, no, you reach a lower level of consciousness, but you're really not
unconscious--feeling is another one: you always have feeling going on. Feeling
is always present when the mind is present, you don't you may have neutral
feeling but you're feeling a feeling all the time and there are other mental
functions like that
[student: I promise this'll be very very brief--]
Okay
[student: the three pages that we just got, of the text? Are they numbered one
through three because it's another section of another book?]
Yeah - it's another section and I wanted I thought about numbering them all
the way through but I rather you keep it behind the one you've got already and
then next week you're gonna get a different one and there'll be five sections like
that because I don't want to renumber them and then start all over again, I mean
I don't want to number them all the way through and then not, they're kind of
parts chopped out of a book
[student: so if we ever get them out of order we'll contact you--[unclear]]
You'll be in trouble...[laughs] all right.
Please repeat {semkye} [repeat], {pa ni} [repeat], {shen den du} [repeat],
{yangkdak}[repeat], {tsogkpa} [repeat], {jangchub du} [repeat] Okay This is the


[unclear-tape cuts out]
that's it, that's the whole presentation
abhisamaralankhara] [laughs] okay?

of

bodhichitta

in

the

[b:

{semkye pani shemden dup yangkdak tsogk pa jangchub duk.unclear} actually

there's about four more lines and that's it. So obviously we need a little [laughs]
[student: elaboration]
By the time you get to the [b: ? kita tipmaydhargyan] in the 15th century--16th
century you have a you have a - it's become about 60, 70 pages, of which you
have three in your hand.
You can treat this as the short definition of
bodhichitta--you're gonna learn a much longer one tonight
{semkye semkye} okay means "bodhichitta", I call it the wish for enlightenment,
okay?
{pa} goes along with it
{ni} means "is"
{shen den du} means "for the sake of others"
[silence]
{shen den chyu?} I'm sorry, I mispelled that, forget {pa ni shen den du} [unclear] I
mispelled that[unclear]--{yang dak tsogpa jangchub} means "total
enlightenment" - and {du} means "the wish"
[student: so is yangdak "total"?]
yangdak tsogkpa is a word that means "totally total" [laughs] like "samyaksam
buddha" in Sanskrit, yeah
[student:I have a question here that might sound funny at first but--"total
enlightenment" is referring to Buddhahood right?]
We're gonna talk about it tonight, if you, I, I, well ask your question then I'll
[unclear]
[student: well my question is--and you don't have to answer it now - but here's

my question - I'm assuming that "total enlightenment" refers to Buddhahood,

and I'm assuming that by it's very nature, the word Buddhahood also means for
the sake of others, so if that's true this would sort of be a bit of a redundancy
here]
I understand that. I understand your question and it's what I thought it was and
it's a good question and we're actually gonna talk about it tonight.
[student: I'm sorry...[unclear]]
Yeah, it's a it's a translation of a Sanskrit prefix--sam, which means {samyak}
meaning "totally complete"
[student: I guess ending with- -the question is, is it possible to achieve total
enlightenment without it]
We'll get there
[student: being for the benefit of other...]
We'll get there, it's not,okay? So bodhichitta, {semkye} is defined as "the wish for
enlightenment, for the sake of others"- the wish to achieve enlightenment for the
sake of others - total enlightenment, sorry, okay.
Bodhichitta is the wish to
achieve total enlightenment for the sake of others--someone ever asks you the
definition of bodhichitta you can give that, that's the cheap one. That's what you
give in the monastery when you [laughs]don't remember the other one which is:
{shen den du yang dak tsogpay duk jangchub dak mig shen ral gye drol tse...
[unclear]semkye yi tsen yi} okay?
[student: is [unclear] nirvana referred to as enlightement?]
We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it, okay, and I know you want to learn that
longer definition, so...
[students: don't erase it; can you wait just a minute...?]
I can wait. In fact I won't even write the next one. I'll, I'll - you can use your text,
uh we're gonna work from the page two [rustling noises]. I don't encourage you
to write on it - I encourage you not to write on it-I encourage you to write on the
back of the page next to it or somethin'--that's it [unclear] --I write a little number

one and then I write my notes number one on the [unclear] side like a footnote.
It's a very beautiful line to memorize, I'm gonna ask the Tibetan track students to
memorize it. You should know the short definition - okay - basically there are
two two elements going on you, you want nirv--you want total Buddhahood
and you want to help other people and that's bascially it, it's like refuge, refuge
had two elements, what were they?
[student: fear and belief]
Fear and belief, yeah, so now with bodhichitta we have two elements, it's
wanting to reach Buddhahood and wanting to help others, we call it {dung du
nyi denge sem}, it means, "the mind that has two wishes"--the mind that has-that has two wishes
[silence]
[student: did you say help 'all' ? or 'others'?]
He says others meaning all other beings, okay, and yourself.
[student: it's the same thing then...[unclear]]
oh yeah, this is the short definition
[student: no I'm saying others and saying all--is the same]
All right, so go to page two in the text - we're gonna talk about the second half,
in English, it says, "the definition of the Greater Way's Wish for Enlightenment is
as follows: " Greater Way means "Mahayana" all right? 'Mahayana'. Why do you
have to call a why do you have to call a Bodhichitta a Mahayana? Isn't all
Bodhichitta Mahayana? I'm we're gonna start--this is what we do in the
monastery first, day after day, why, why do you say Mahayana Bodhichitta?
Isn't that a--whatayacallit?
[student: redundant--]
Redundant--isn't all Bodhichitta, Mahayana? in fact isn't isn't it when you get
Bodhichitta that you reach Mahayana? Right? You guys know that--gaining
genuine Bodhichitta is is is what it means to become Mahayana and until you
have true Bodhichitta you have not reached the Mahayana path yet--you can call

yourself a Mahayanist Buddhist but you're not --you're not a Mahayana person-[laughs] okayall right? Until you have genuine Bodhichitta--so why do they
say Mahayana Bodhichitta?-- I found it in a sutra many years ago--{semkye}
which is the Tibetan word for --one of the two Tibetan words for Bodhichitta-there are three--{semkye} means: "to get the mind...to generate the mind...to
develop the mind", and it's the mind that wants to get Buddhahood--but there's
three Buddhahoods--okay? And this is very important in your school--what hat
are you wearing this course? What school are you in, this course? Do you know?
[student: Madhyamika Prasangika]
You're in Madhyamika
[another student: no--Madhyamika Svatantrik]
Svantantrika, yeah--we're in the lower Madhyamika school--yeah--you spend
twelve years in that and then you get to have four years in Prasangika [laughs]
[student: [unclear] we're in the higher school temporarily, acting like we're in the
lower school? or--]
you're always that-[student: okay--I thought that's]
I said what hat are you're wearing I didn't say what you are--we say what hat are
you wearing - you know you go in a monastery you say - the guy says [clap]
give me the definition of Bodhichitta--ya say well what hat you want me to put
on you know- what whatdya want?
[student: so Prasangika is wearing Svatantrik hats
which all the great scholars were--right? yeah
[students: "{semkye}: to develop the mind" --and the end of the sentence
please...could you repeat the sentence, actually]
well, {semkye} means to "develop the mind" and it means "the mind that wants
to get Buddhahood," and there's three kinds of Buddhahood

{student: thank you...[silence]]

the lower Madhyamika school which is called: "Svatantrika"
[student: how do you spell Madhyamika?]
by the way the word "Madhyam" came into English as what?
[student: medium?]
yeah-okay-[unclear] the English word, 'medium'--'matyam'--Svatantrika--this
doesn't have anything to do with Tantra, it's the same root-it has nothing to do
with Tantra--okay--it's a school--it's the lower Madhyamika school--they say
there are three tracks, we only have two right?
[student: Madhyamika says--Svantantrika says there are three tracks?--]
yeah Svantantrika says there a three distinct tracks
[student: Budhhahoods?--]
and that each track has at its end --a final goal, for that track-- and those three
goals--you can think of it -- I I once drew a --we did a book about it once--it's like
this: there are three tracks going on, the lowest track is called, "Listeners" or
"Sravakas" that you may have read about it in books; they go through, you don't
need to--I'm not gonna test you on this - I just want you to hear their beliefs
cause it's important, they believe there's five paths the way that the others go
through--{sog, jor, tog, lung, nyimo [unclear]}--and then you reach Arhat-Nirvana-[student: what's the English for those 5 Paths--you just mentioned?]
I don't want to do the whole thing--this you study in the 13th year [laugh]--I'm
sorry--about the 11th year--but it's its: "Accumulation, Preparation, Seeing,
Meditation and then No More Learning--they're called Listeners because they
can hear Mahayana Dharma, they can repeat it to others, but they can't practice it
[student: they don't get it?]
they don't--they can even repeat what the Buddha said about Mahayana but they

can't do it-[student: presumably because they don't get it or--]

they don't-[student:--they don't see the value in it or they do but there's just something
[unclear]?--]
yeah--no--they can't--they're concerned to reach their own nirvana--yeah
basically not enough intelligence--yeah-basically that's their--they're a couple of
eons beyond us but [laughs]
[student: it's not intelli--it's more intelligence in the heart sense though--]
no-[students: because they've achieved wisdom which some of the Bodhisattvas
have achieved--I'm sure they can hear it and they can [unclear]
well we call them "disciples who are dull-- dull-witted"
[student: "actually--you know on this very point--in Thailand in February I talked
with a Western Hinayana monk on this subject and I said, 'Well what's-- don't
you believe that --how are Buddhas, how do Buddhas come into existence if you
can't practice [unclear]?" and he says 'Oh no that's possible but that's so far
beyond that forget about even trying to do it...]
ohh...second track is Self-made Buddhas, they're one step up [student: these are the solitary realizers?]
yeah, what they call it but it's a bad translation, they're Self-made Buddhas
[student: now the only people that call them Self-made Buddhas, the the
Madhyamika [unclear]]
I'll, I'll explain it--solitary realizers is bad translation [unclear]
[student: it's in the book...]

--and then there's Mahayana-[student: and Self-made Buddhas have 5--same 5 Paths?]
yeah-in their own track [silence]--and then Mahayana you go through your own
5 Paths and you reach Buddahood
[student: same 5--not different?]
[student: different]
they're called the same thing but they have different realizations--and I--it's a
long story, this is a whole subject, okay; it's believed by this school that each of
these 3 tracks perceives a different kind of emptiness--they don't call it
emptiness, they call it lack of self, selflessness-alright? So these three people all
perceive a different kind of selflessness
[student: so said--[unclear]...Svatantrikas]
[student: a different kind of...[unclear]emptiness?]
they say they're three degrees of selflessness, the highest one is emptiness
[laughs] I don't want to confuse you, these reason I brought it up is that these
three states are called the three enlightenments
[student: by?...]
by the Svatantrikas
[student: right...]
and in sutra--I can show you the sutra
[student: and so what is the difference between [unclear] two?]
so this is the answer to Mr. Kari's question--why we have to say total
enlightenment--total enlightenment means this one--Buddhahood--no? well why
not

[student: question was, total enlightenment also known as Buddhahood okay?

oh-but I'll talk about that too--now are Self-made Buddhas, Buddhas? No.
They're called {sangye} they're called Buddhas- even in Sanskrit they're called
Buddha, but they're not real Buddhas. Are they Self-made, what do you think?-[student: [unclear]]
Can they, can they in this life without a teacher-[student: no, without a teacher?]
become a--reach nirvana--without a teacher
[student: sure of course they can]
they do--they do because they've had trillions of teachers in their past [laughs]
lives--and people--you don't--people are uncomfortable with the word Self-made
Buddhas so they make up a word like Solitary Realizer and that's not the point,
the word is Self-made Buddha, but then you have to have a teacher to say, 'selfmade means: didn't have a teacher in this life--had trillions of teachers
before...Buddha means not a real Buddha, just reached nirvana--but the Sanskrit
word and Tibetan word is 'Self-made Buddha'
[student: so another better term would be, those who achieve enlightenment,
those who when finally achieve enlightenment didn't have the presence of their
teacher--]
in that last life
[student: yeah, at that time--]
yeah, nirvana, please or their-this enlightenment--their track's enlightenment
[student: their enlightenment--right...]
okay--so these are called the three enlightenments - and and it's found in sutra,
I've seen it in sutra, I found it in a sutra, I don't think many people realize thatbut that--for example there was a great saint named Katiana, he gave a Buddha
discourse--he gave a talk about Buddhism--the Listeners--people in the audience

reached the three {semkye's}--these people who had this kind of--ability--wanted
to get this nirvana--people on this track wanted to get this nirvana - people on
this track wanted to get Buddhahood--those are the three {semkye's}-those are
the three Bodhichittas--there are three Bodhichittas--that's why you have to say
Maha--the Greater Way's wish for enlightenment, in the text here--that's why
you have to say Mahayana Wish for Bodhichitta
[student: so what exactly is the Listener's nirvana and Self-Made Buddha's
nirvana?]
elimination of their bad thoughts
[student: and what's the difference between the 'chittas--the three different
between these two?
[student: how they got there?--]
how they got there-- yeah I'd say that[student: and the quality?]
I don't think there's a qualitative difference between those two-[student: well if they empt--if they come at emptiness differently? if they
perceive emptiness differently, it is different-[student: according to the Svatantrikas there must be a difference--if they're
perceiving [unclear] emptiness--]
[student: according to the Svatantrikas...]
well the cause of their cessation--the cause of their losing their bad thoughts, was
perceiving a different kind of selflessness--but I don't want to get into that--this is
a whole subject, there are books written about this book--one of the--can you go
from here to here? Can you--do you have to start back [unclear] here or can you
skip to here if you already start--you know, and we're not gonna get into it-[student: Michael, at the beginning you said, all three can reach what?]

nirvana...nirvana
[student: nirvana...]
[student: what's the difference between Buddhahood and nirvana then?]
It's a great question - you tell me, you studied it-[student: well nirvana is cessation of suffering for yourself, Buddhahood is
cessation for yourself and others-it's very si--[unclear]
[student: omniscience--]
[student: --going out to help everyone else]
[student: yeah but they haven't--they're not--yeah [unclear]]
nirvana, nirvana achieved under the influence of Bodhichitta, nirvana achieved
under the influence of a love for all other beings, is Buddahood-[student: yeah--]
it's nice-- it's beautiful, if you've got--if these two guys had had Bodhichitta in
their minds when they got to this point, they would have reached Buddhahood-[student: so really the difference is, is almost the activity level, you both have the
same nirvana con-condition--and you, the difference is you're- you're not both
[unclear]
yeah?--cessation is the same--both, both lose your?--bad thoughts
[student: [unclear] but where does this omniscience come into play here then?]
and you lose your--knowledge [unclear] if you have Bodhichitta in your mind-[students: so the Bodhichitta...didn't you say there are three kinds of
Bodhichitta--and if that's true--]

I'm sorry--Mahayana Bodhichitta-good correction--okay--and that's why the

book here says, I'm I'm gonna tear apart--this is what we do in a debate-and it
and it-otherwise you think this is just all-- why use so many words? you know,
why why doesn't they- why don't they just use this little definition that was okay
for Maitreya--it's okay for me [laughs]--but you have to expand on it or you can't
get it precise--so you do have to say Mahayana {semkye} {[unclear]-chen
semkye}--okay so -now I'm not gonna be--now when you're debating- now
okay listen you know I'm talking about Mahayana Bodhichitta--I know I'm
talking about Mahayana Bodhichitta--I'm not going to repeat the word
Mahayana tonight, Okay? Agreed? [laughs] You get it straight when you're
debating in the monastery, okay.
[student: can you explain the difference between the three results, between-these three persons--]
yeah-this one--this person knows everything - these two don't - this person got
rid of all his suffering, they did also--so from negative side, all three of them-they stopped all their suffering--but from positive side, now this person knows
everything--he sees everything in the universe in one moment--everything in
the past, everything that's going to be, everything thing that is - and he sees it
now--in one moment--he can see it all--that's the difference between them,
basically
[student: and also that the lower two don't have the desire as you would say, to
apply themselves to achieving the same [unclear]]
well it's a very beautiful subject to debate, and there's [unclear] beautiful books
about it--they always have to come back to here, they always have to come to
here-they always will come to here--how they are woken up out of their
cessation, out of their meditative state is very beautiful, you know--this process
by which they get the urge to help other people is very beautiful--it's a very
interesting subject, we don't--we're not doing that tonight [laughs] okay-definition--don't forget we're talking Mahayana Bodhichitta now--which is the
Bodhichitta--which is the only Bodhichitta you ever heard of anyway, until
tonight, okay--it is that main mental awareness belonging to the Greater Way-we're gonna tear apart each word-[student: can you define what the non-Mahayana Bodhichitta is first?]
the desire to reach these two levels; it's the wish for enlightenment--

[students: for yourself--so how's that Bodhichitta--right--exactly]

I'm trying to say this, there are three Bodhichittas and two of them--they don't
worry about other people--because Bodhichitta is not--is the 'wish for
enlightenment'--they have the wish for enlightenment
[students: no!--[unclear] but we... wish for enlightenment...but that's not what we
said what Bodhichitta was before...]
that was {[unclear]-chen semkye}--that was assuming Mahayana Bodhichitta-when you talk about the the {lam tsong sum kyi [unclear] ch( pay chang sem,
dang chitam [unclear]chik pa ma [unclear]} you say, 'c'mon, Bodhichitta in the
Three Paths? In the Three Principle Paths, and Bodhichitta's [clap] different
things!' You know when you're talking Three Principle Paths you're talking
Mahayana Bodhichitta, and everybody knows that--you're not talking general
Bodhichitta
[student: never knew there was general Bodhichitta--[unclear]]
yeah no people don't know who haven't studied--there's three {semkye's}
[student: well that's partly because Bodhichitta is one word]
there's three {semkye's}, I'm I'm gonna use the word {semkye}--there's three
{semkye's} which is translated as Bodhichitta--and {semkye} means that the
wish--for enlightenment--so there's three wishes for enlightenment--two of them
are not real - are not total enlightenment--they're just called enlightenment-[student: but when at the beginning of teachings on this they say you know-before you hear this teaching you should develop bodhichitta, the [unclear]
motivation [unclear] Mahayana Bodhichitta]
that's that's always Mahayana Bodhichitta and they should have said that--but
but they don't--a lot of people don't understand the difference--and I wouldn't
use the word Bodhichitta very easily, I would call it {semkye} okay - Bodhichitta's
{chang sem}--it's a little bit different--don't worry about it, just be aware that
there's three wishes for enlightenment two of them are not the wish for total
enlightenment--and that's why we have to say 'Greater Way's wish for
enlightenment-Mahayana's wish for enlightenment'- okay we've gotta go on or

we'll never finish this definition--first it is main mental awareness--it is main

mental awareness--alright--we're on page 2 of the English but its awareness is
very easy - okay? We can all agree on that? Or not?
[student: I have a question for you, excuse me--]
it is awareness--it's consciousness - it's not the mental function - so is everyone
comfortable with that - Bodhi mind--Buddhahood mind--it's the same as - when
you wake up out of a deep sleep and suddenly you're aware-are you
comfortable with that?
[student: it's like the human being awareness that we have when we wake up
and we see our room?]
yeah, yeah--raw consciousness, without any details--the fact that you are aware
[student: and what was that defined?]
this is now--we're into what is Bodhichitta--what are the qualities of Bodhichitta-the first qualitiy that I'm mentioning is awareness--I'm talking about the word
'awareness'
[student: what you're talking about is specific kind of raw-yeah
[student: --awareness as opposed to a general raw awareness that what he
has?--]
no--what I'm saying is that--if someone knocked you out and then they put
smelling salt in your nose and suddenly you--the whole world came back to you
this whole [unclear]--this whole awareness--the general fact that you know--the
general--you're not [unclear]--it's difficult for you to recognize that-the fact that
you're conscious as opposed to--dead [laughs] [laughter]--no I'm serious
[student: I understand that part--I understand that part...]
just listen-- wait, let me finish--that consciousness, that raw consciousness-[student: yeah--]

Bodhichitta is that kind of consciousness--and not the kind of thing where you:
'oh I love him...'--not, not that specific state of mind where you say 'I love this
person--'
[student: so not a mental function--]
it's not a mental function--it is the mind itself--you don't have a problem with
that?--you're not going to debate me on that??
[student: is it the nature of the mind?]

no--it is, it is the fact that you-[student: [unclear]]

you have any mind--it's your main mind--as opposed to this: 'I'm jealous of
him...I'm angry at him...
[student: no, no--]
I wonder what the light is made of--you know-[student: but I think, I think that you-it's just the fact that you're aware
[student: you're talking about two different things...that awareness that you're
told about that comes with the smelling salt--is common to all beings--]
I'm saying that! I'm saying that--

[student: right-[student: [unclear] Greater Way--]

student: --so so how do you distinguish between me and that between
somebody of a Greater Way?]

We got, we got two more paragraphs to go-okay [laugh]

[students: [unclear]
do you, do you-what I'm saying is do you feel comfortable me explaining
Bodhichitta as your main mind--not, not the mental function-[student: yes-not love, not a wish,
student: --it's a natural]
not a desire, not an aspiration--it's just the fact that you're aware?
[student: well, obviously your [unclear]
[student: not yet, no]
student: is being transformed once you've achieved it--]
no you're still aware of other stuff too
[student: well--you're...]
[student: so you're saying, once you're aware you have the wish for
enlightenment?]
now that's better, now I should get a debate like this [laughs]
[student: [unclear] you say the wish for enlightenment should be like that
[unclear]]
no--we're gonna just, we're gonna give it other adjectives, we're gonna call it
more stuff-but I'm saying is the basic state of mind, is not like a wish, it's not like
a love, it's not like a desire, it's not like an aspiration, it's just raw consciousness-you feel comfortable with that? You're not going to debate me with that?
[student: no--]

[student: well it sounds like we should--]

I have a lot of trouble with that [laughs] [laughter]-- Atisha had trouble with it,
and Atisha didn't accept it
[student: na-I think I don't have trouble with with what I think you're getting at-I
have trouble with I think the way you're presenting it.]
It's a difficult point-[student: If you're trying to make a comparison between the raw, basic
consciousness that any being has when it's not knocked out by Mike Tyson, if
that's what you're talking about--that--]
Unqualified? No.
[student --that seems to me to be, that seems to me to be common to all beings,
Buddhas or--cockaroaches--]
Accepted-but what I'm saying is-[student: now that--that's the basis-Listen listen
[student: then on top of that--]
no--on top of that we're gonna add many characteristics
[student: yeah?...]
but but you don't feel uncomfortable with thinking that it's a specific love, or
specific kind of feeling or specific kind of-[student: no - no I don't feel it--no no]
it's just that it's raw con--[unclear]
[student: [unclear]--if something is permeated something then that's the way it's

gonna be-if something is you know-is completely imbued? if that's the word I'm
looking for? Then, then that's the way it is--]
Well you can be imbued with other attitudes that are mental functions-[student: well yeah if you're not imbued with the attitude of the Greater Wayyou[unclear] got bodhi mind--]
Okay, well, anyway there was big fight about it in
[student: it's supposed to be natural, it's not supposed to be mental functions, it's
supposed to be something where it's like-it's it's just it exists--there is not a
mental function--it's its own--[unclear] fear--and it's some sort of]
[student: --fact of nature almost--]
well--let me put it to you like [unclear]
[student: when I wake up in the morning I see my room and I, and I--and then
without any effort I am aware--but I am aware of myself as a human being on
planet earth etc.--now if you're trying to say that for the people who really have
this Bodhichitta the same thing happens to them--when they wake up they look,
they know, that they have Bodhichitta and that everything is like that, when
they look at it--then that's no problem--]
[student: --that's what it is--isn't that what it is?]
[student: but what you're trying to say is is that that that basic awareness itself--]
Unqualified, is Bodhichitta. No I would never say that--that's not what I'm saying
at all-I mean that's simple
[student: okay--because for the human being they are human--that basic
awareness manifests itself as being a human--[unclear] Bodhichitta being--]
No--I'm not saying that--there's two--there's many more words here--every
word here has a special function-[student: what did you just say...?]

I'm saying it's main mind, according to [unclear], according to our own systemand it was a bitter fight--I mean--the
[student: what's the right answer?]
[laughs] the current--the Buddhist belief is that it's main mind. The reason it's
main mind--the reason it's raw consciousness--is not anything that you said--I
understand what you're saying--you're saying that Bodhichitta is such a high
state that it should 'imbue my mind the way that my consciousness currently
imbues my mind'--it's not the reason given in the books--the reason given in the
books is--you have two--one of the reasons given in the books is that you have-you have two desires at that moment--what are they? When you get
Bodhichitta-true Bodhichitta, you have two desires, you have two aspirations-[students: to help other, to achieve enlightenment--]
you wanna help others, and you want to become a Buddha, okay?
[students: yeah...]
If--and the explanation that I've heard that I like the best-is that--according to
Buddhism you can't focus on two objects at the same time-a normal person--a
Buddha can--when you're looking at my nose's color you can't focus on my ear's
color--specifically - impossible--when you're having anger you can't have at the
same moment another state of mind--they can come so fast that you think
they're one and in Buddhism they say that's like lining up rose petals on a target
and shooting an arrow at it--and as it passes through each petal-tche-tche-tchetche-tche, it looks like it [unclear] you know it looks like it went all at once but
actually--if you think about it-they are milli-seconds of you're mind--they
appear-- appears that you can have anger and love and something within a short
period of time but Buddhism says now that's an illusion--it's happening so fast
that it seems to be one thing but it's not - it's really separate states of mind
coming up - so it's impossible to have those two mental functions at the same
time--you have to speak in terms of the mind which contains those two mental
functions-you have to speak in terms of the main mind which is coming along
with those two mental functions--think if the main mind as this big guy who has
two arms - okay? there has to be main mind to have these two arms--you can't
have these two arms. You can't have these two arms floating around on their
own, there has to be a mind that possess these two wishes. Cause otherwise you
just have two wishes floating out there on their own--so there has to be a main

mind--and that's the position - that's why you have to posit it as a main mind.
[student: so [unclear] main mind in tandem with the two [unclear]]
yeah--yeah, and in tandem is a beautiful for what I just--what I want to mention
next--okay? It's the idea of matching--matching--it's main mind matched with
those two desires. What do we mean, 'matched'? Uh, we'll study it in the [b:
Abidharmakosha], but 'matched' basically means: "in five ways they are--what
did you use?--'in tandem'--they are working in tandem in five ways--and that's
true; for you to have jealousy you have to be aware, right? I mean, awareness is
the mothermind, and then jealousy is one the little things going on in the mind.
You say I have jealousy in my thoughts, so that--in the thoughts means in the
mind, in the main mind--so you have to have a main mind to hold the two
desires--otherwise bodhichitta would be two desires. So you have to speak in
terms of a main mind that has the two desires. How does it have them?-[student: [unclear] would be two different mental functions--]
yeah bodhichitta would be always plural-[student: --right]
so, the ways in which the mind and the mental functions--did I lose you guys?
[laughs]--it's awful quiet [laughs]
[student: So this [unclear] main mind as there are what--[unclear]--how many
different kinds of main minds are there?]
only one--oh I'm sorry, six-[student: Six--for the six [unclear]]
but I don't want to get into it--no-[students: we'll study it [unclear]--can you tell us what we should be writingcause I [laughter] just-- [unclear]]
okay, I want to be at the end of this class, what I'd like you to know, and what
you're homework is, if I ask you why is it Greater's Way--why do we have to say
'Mahayana Bodhichitta'--why?--

[student: okay--]
why? why do I have to say: 'I'm gonna talk tonight about Mahayana
Bodhichitta?' Why?
[student: because some people--]
there's two other kinds of Bodhichitta-[student: because--according to some other people - there two other kind of
Buddhahood-right
[student: and the mind that-right-[student: aspires to those Buddhahoods, or Enlightenments is also by them
referred to as Bodhichitta so we don't want to--]
confuse
[student: --confuse, what we consider to be actual bodhichitta with their
somewhat lesser version--]
okay that's alright--that's--that's
[student: Bu that's not a positive presentation of what Mahayana Bodhichitta is--]
no it's not--but it's correct
[student--but it's not]
it's why we put the word Mahayana in therewe'll get to yours later--it's
coming--okay Linn, my second question is to you--why--why does Bodhichitta
have to be the main m--your raw awareness? Why don't we just call it the desire
for Buddhahood, the wish for Buddhahood? Why does it have to be your
consciousness?

[student, Linn: oh Mahayana Bodhichitta--]

yeah, I said I'm not going to repeat it-[student: I don't even understand the question--]
okay-[student: I'm lost, I'm totally lost--]
let's say, you feel, you feel love for someone right?
[student: okay]
They're two state of mind going on--they're two mental events going on--one is
that you're conscious, if you weren't--if I knocked you out and said 'do you still
love the guy?' [laughs]
[student: mmhmm-right]
you can't feel love if your main mind is shut down. If your main mind is
running, then you can have an emotion inside of the main mind, okay?
[student: okay]
so so my next question is, do you think that the desire to help--to achieve
Buddhahood for all others is--a--that main mind, or is a feeling in the main mind?
[student: it's a feeling in the main mind--]
it's actually two feelings--it's the feeling that I want to become a Buddha and it's
the feeling that I want to help other people--and it's for that reason we have to
call it 'the main mind'--cause something has to hold those two thoughts at the
same time.
[students: You can have them at the same time-; you can't--]
not technically [laughs] okay? Think of it as the place to put the two thoughts-you have to be aware before you can love with your mind. If I knock you out--

forget having love-[student: right, there's nothing--to love--it's--[unclear]]

so, bodhichitta is a main mind-[student: there's a whole bunch of other thoughts too--you just [unclear] have
two of them-there's feeling going on and there's awareness--are you okay?
[student: but love is a mental function--]
are you okay, are you alright?
[student: yeah]
sure?
[student: yeahof course--[unclear]]
Sure. No yeah, and when they say, no --didn't you ever wonder when they said
bodhi mind--Buddha mind--you say, 'I've only got an English [unclear]--you say
I've only got one mind, what are you talking about, they say the mind that
wants Enlightenment, you say Enlightenment mind--you know I've got one
mind it's a bad translation, you know Tibetans are always saying mind when you
would'a say thought. Because how many minds you have?
[student: on mind!]
one mind!--I mean in English mind means the one--the main mind
[student: mind--]
so I--maybe Linn, you can call the difference this, I'm asking you this--is
bodhichitta your mind? or is bodhichitta some thoughts in you mind? that's a
good way to put it-[student: that's much easier--]
let's stick to that--[laughter]

[student: it's-this is a real important point-[student: --it's [unclear] some thoughts in your mind--it's both--it's your mind
and it's the thoughts that your mind has--]
not a bad answer, okay--I bet most people would say it's the thoughts--okay?
right?
[student: --so the second, the thoughts within your mind--]
yeah, and what Buddhism says--what the Buddhist meditators say is 'don't think
that way'--it is your mind-[student: [unclear] the thoughts--]
that has the two thoughts
[student: merged in one--]
[student: it's the mind--]
with the two thoughts, in it-[student: it has the pos--it has the, uh--[unclear]]
[student: is both the mind and the two thoughts in the mind--]
no it's the mind that has the two thoughts-[student: it's the mind that--it's the mind that has the power to even have
[unclear]]
[student: is jealousy a thought?--it's a mental function--[unclear]
jealousy's a thought
[student: - [unclear] real mind--so-it's closer to mind than it is to a mental

function--]
[student: maybe you mean--do mean the mind that is capable of having those
two those thoughts? is that an easier way to put it--]
no no no, I'll ask again--is is Bodhichitta-which is--which consists of two, two
thoughts--right? I want to help people and I want to become a Buddha so I can
help people-[student: right--]
is it a thought? Or is it the mind that has those thoughts?
[student: it's the thoughts--]
it's the thoughts! it really is the thoughts--and Atisha held that view--and others
and Maitreya did not--Maitryea says, 'it's your mind' now why?
[student: it's your mind with or without those thoughts?]
no--good point! it's your mind when it has those two thoughts-[student: that's what I [unclear]-]
[student: but how can your mind have two thoughts?]
oh your mind has thoughts all the time, no?
[students: no two thoughts-at the same time-it's fluctuating, it's alternating between the two-it's not focusing-- not one thing-otherwise it's the rose petal analogy--]
yeah you can say it's fluctuating between those two--alternating so quickly, that
you can't tell the difference--

[student: well, wait a minute--why don't we form a - what if you say--well okay,
let's say that the other the thought was fear or jealousy--]
yeah
[student: would that be described as mind?]
see, yeah you want to know whether that's mind or thought? It's accepted by
everyone as being a thought-[student: --a thought--okay so this is the only exception--]
yeah--and it's very important--that's why they call it Buddha mind--that's why
they call it 'chitta' - chitta means mind -chitta means main mind [student: this is - this is the only exception to the thought which will--relies on
other thoughts like jealousy-[student: --you can't--]
yeah--uh--[unclear] different point--it's it's--this is the only place, in Buddhism
[student: so why?--]
when attitude is described as your main mind--as your mind-[students: and so why? why? why?]
--not as a thought inside your mind--you struggle with it - I mean-Maitreya said
so--that's--I mean in Buddhism we have to show two things, we have to say: "An
authority said it, and it makes sense"
[student: why does it make sense?]
it's easier, the authority part [laughs]
[student: once you've achieved--]
[student: what's the authority part?]

Maitreya said it, Asanga said it and--Asanga said it in two places [student: maybe we have to go meditate on it--no really]
mmm-there's apparently there's some importance to this question--Atisha felt
that it was not your mind--he thought is was a, he thought it was a thought in
your mind--Maitreya didn't say that - and the great commentators didn't say
that[student: but it has nothing to do with what I [unclear] more like--]
I believe-[student: --a nature of the mind because it should be there just as ever-present as
any [unclear]--it has nothing to do with--?]
I've never seen it explained that way - no--I've never seen that--the expression-explanation I've seen [student: so because the two]
are that it's two thoughts - so there has to be a mind has those two thoughts - to
have a one thing which is Buddhamind-[student: so-is it also because once you have it you don't lose it?-- or--]
no you can lose it-[student: you can lose it--]
yeah
[student: unclear]]
yeah - there's a famous story of someone who lost it-[student: that has to do with the fact that you're, um - you're nature is a pure
nature?--]

no nothing to do with that--nothing to do

[student: no?]
[student: is it possible that that's the only instance where the mind can
simultaneously have two thoughts? because of the nature of the thoughts?]
no
[student: you didn't say that they could simultaneously have two thoughts - we
said that it was alternating very quickly between the two--but does that mean
that it could dwell for a bit on one of them and then slowly alternate to the other
one [laughter} - is that considered the same? ]
I'll pass-[student: or is the quality that it's [unclear] so quickly between the two that it
always seems to be--uh]
I'll pass on it--I'm not even sure that I should say that the-it can't have two at the
same time - and there's technical reason for that and I'm not gonna get into it-one is a focus and one is a feeling-[student: but --first didn't you say the definition of Mahayana Bodhichitta is
awareness or consciousness - NOT a mental function?]
right I did say that-[student: it's the main mind--]
it's the main mind that has the --[unclear]
[students: that what [unclear] talkin about]
[student: even though two [unclear] don't occur simultaneously?]
uh I don't want to dwell on that [student: but that's your reason--as to why it's main mind--if they don't occur
simultaneously--[unclear]]

[stu=dent: But it's not awareness or consciousness--[unclear]]

right? [laughter]
[student: and so how do you process--I don't get it--]
No struggle with it, struggle with it--no--struggle with it, struggle with it--I mean
it's an important point-[student: --but we are!] [laughter]
Maitreya-[student: struggle with us please--]
Maitreya, Asanga, and another commentator, a famous commentator- I forget
his name
[student: we got no problem with people saying it's that way it's--we're trying to
understand why--]
No and I--apparently it's important--apparently it's very important - and I'm not
satisfied with explanations I've got [student: oh]
the best one's I've heard--the one that I like the best--is is that it- because it has
two thoughts, it it--you have to speak in terms of the whole which contains the
two-[student: well if- let's say you forget the two thoughts then, right?--]
yeah
[student: let's just say there's one thought--let's say--]
there's not!
[student: well- no - wait wait wait--]

[student: well there is - but if there it's not Bodhichitta then]

[student: let's say the mind is only holding--]
let's say if were like anger,
[student: wait wait wait--]
holding what object?
[student: let's say the mind is holding one object--only the wish to be Buddha-]
right-[student: --flickering alternating with slowly or fast
right
[student: --the desire to help other people okay?--The mind is still holding that
one thought--right-so if Bodhichitta were a thought and not main mind - it
couldn't even hold one thought-you see my point?]
well then anger would have to be main mind and not a mental function [student: say that again?]
then all--every other emotion would have to be main mind also [student: no - no
no because you [unclear] still have the two--that's pretty good
[student: the main mind is holding one thought - the main mind is holding the
anger]
okay - ah - I mean-[student: Bodhichitta is the main mind holding the wish to become a Buddha-you see what I mean?

Okay - I don't mind - that's sounds [unclear]

[student: I think we've gotten back to the original question I had then - because-isn't implied in Buddhahood itself 'for the sake of others'? I mean--there is no
Buddha without 'for the sake of others'--so to achieve Buddhahood for the sake
of others-there's two-[student: --is a redundancy, right? or are there Buddhas out there who have
achieved their - [unclear] without being for the sake of others--]
no it's not saying achieved - it's saying aspiring to achieve--for the sake of others
[student: --for the purpose of-you can aspire to achieve for some - for some selfish reason - you would never
get it - but you could aspire for another reason-[student: but you would--but it would come full circle then - you would be
aspiring - to something which for the sake of others - so how could you not
aspire to it--for the sake of others - since it in and of itself - ]
how can people take robes for selfish reasons? - it's stated in the vinaya that you
do--that you can - that people have.
[students: [unclear]]
they say -- bad argument -[student: no no no - the definition--people can misunderstand what Buddhahood
that's fine - that's not what I'm talkin about--]
by definition they're misunderstaning it [student: right - but are there Buddhas who exist for some reason other than the
for the sake of others--]
no - obviously no -

[student: no! - so then that's a redundancy--]

[unclear] people who aspire to it for other reasons [student: but then they don't know what they're aspiring to--]
are there people who aspire to it for other reasons?
[student: yes]
yesokay--fini
[student:
not to Buddhahood--they might think they're aspiring to
Buddhahood--]
[laughs] alright - so it's a main awareness - you struggle with - I have struggled
with it for about 15 years-[student: but you gave us an answer though --]
I'll ask my lama again - he said well it's a different question and Atisha actually
didn't accept it [unclear] and I says well - and he says - okay [unclear] [laughter] [unclear] wiser than I am - uh - okay mental awareness - why do we have to say
mental awareness? Isn't it obviously a mental - are there any other kinds of
awareness - are there any other kinds of consciousness?
[student: yes--[unclear]]
yeah - the five sense consciousnesses - there are six awarenesses - there are six
consciousnesses - so who on earth is going to mistake Bodhichitta for awareness
of good smells in a restaurant? Or awareness of sweet sounds in a in a disco-why isn't it - what did you say?
[end side one]
--superfluous--what's the other word? redundant--to say mental awareness - isn't
it obviously a mental awareness? Isn't obviously a thought and not a sensation of
a smell or something like that. Is there anybody who might have a similar
consciousness in his ear or something like that - or in his eyes - is that even
possible? Why are we bothering with saying mental? Who?

[cut]
that they see things is incomprehensible - it's inconceivable - okay? the Buddha
hears everything that was ever eaten in the universe - ever [student: with his nose]
[student: through all his six sense?]
yeah yeah
[student: simultaneously]
simultaneously
[student: simultaneously?]
he hears the warmth of every person touching every other person who ever did
and ever will - yeah it's a different kind of being [student: is this only Shakyamuni Buddha?]
No any Buddha-[student: oh any Buddha--]
yeah - okay - so that is meant to exclude that possiblity -we're not talking about
the ear consciousness of a Buddha, which also fits most of the rest of the
definition. We want to make it mental.
[student: so he hears things that have been said and that will be said--]
I didn't say - I said he can smell everything that will ever be said - he can hear
everything that will ever be touched-[student: oh - excuse me!]
[laughs] okay, he's different than us - and it's very, very difficult when you're in
the monastery--you've been through years of studying how the mind can work,

how the senses can work, how senses have to be object specific, and then you
get to eighth chapter of this book and you throw it all out the window [laughs]
you know, okay - yeah?
[student: what happens to the main mind when it's not occupied with
Bodhichitta? Does the main mind become something else?]
It can have other thoughts--yeah
[student: so then Bodhichitta is a thought within the main mind?]
Phoo! Now you're getting into this [unclear] - I accept the viewpoint of Maitreya
- it's the main mind which has the two thoughts - the two - you should be asking
me: 'when I perceive emptiness directly, and I cannot frame a thought - do I lose
my Bodhichitta for my period of meditation?
[student: yeah in a way - it's still in your mental continuum]
and they say, no--you can-[student: [unclear] Maitreya says no that one- [unclear]]
[student: so it has to be permeating [unclear] your mind--]
[unclear] what character is it? so at that moment it exists in the mind and it's not-[student: not a thought--]
it's not present in the mind, it's a big debate-[student: well maybe it's present in the mind in some other form than a
thought--]
[unclear] do you--cause if you've ever been-when you go through that - when
you go through that experience of perceiving emptiness directly - you will see you can't even be aware that you're having it - you don't think to your- you're I'm sorry --you're aware that you're having it - but you're not - you don't think:
'Linn is perceiving emptiness; I'm perceiving emptiness'--you can't think that
during that deep perception of emptiness - so if you can't think that how can you
have a wish - 'oh I wish I could help all sentient beings'--you know?

[student: cause there's no 'I']

you can't even perceive yourself at that moment--so do you lose your
Bodhichitta for that period - and does a Bodhisattava the day after he gets
Bodhichitta - I mean when he's eating when he's in the road - when somebody's
about to run over him -a taxi - does he - does he ever think about something else
you know and does he lose Bodhichitta for 10 seconds - and they say 'no' - it's
{semba} it's im - it's permeates its mind [student: if it's permeating his mind - then it's not his mind--]
yeah - right? - difficult [student: what is it that permeates his mind?]
good - good point - Bodhichitta [student: Bodhichitta]
yeah - which is the mind [laughter]
[students: --the main mind; [unclear]]
No, I didn't like it as an argument--I've never seen it as a justification for why it's
main mind, is what I'm saying - I don't believe there's any such presentation [unclear] in my knowledgeokay - focused on achieving total enlightenment.
Why they say total?
[student: for those who don't really understand what enlightenment is--]
no cause there's these two - there's these two so-called enlightenments - which
are not enlightenments [student: that doesn't make it any less real - they're all real [unclear]]
okay - that's why we have to say total enlightenment - there are enlightenments
which are not total - and didn't you always wonder about it? You know, I always
did - I always said - why did they say, purely total enlightenment? I mean
enlightenment's enlightenment - I'm enlightened or not enlightened- you can't
have half enlightened

[student: there are enlightenments that are not total - where there's only one
enlightenment and to distinguish it between would be enlightenments - it's called
total - which is it?]
second one, it's the second one
[student: it's the second one, there is only one enlightenment--?]
it's a beautiful debate - it's an important subject - it comes in this book, it's called:
{tartuk tekpa chikpa drukpa}--and it means, the big debate is, are there three
tracks?
[student: or is it just the one big track, broken into three sections--]
it's one big track, give me a break! they have to go up to here, they have to go
up to here, there's only one track-[student: they have to--they can't --[unclear]they can't permanently--]
they always will - they always do [student: and why is that?]
long story{tartuk tekpa chikpa drukpa} there's a-[student: is it universally held, that they all do?]
no, different Buddhist schools have different views
[student: but you can stay for a very long time, right?
right--but in the end you must go to Buddhahood, in the end you must get
Bodhichitta--Mahayana Bodhichitta-[students: I understand--[unclear]]
so the lam rim's saying: 'don't waste your time, why start with these lower
motivations?' you might as well start with Bodhichitta if you're gonna end up
there anyway.

[students: [unclear]two enlightenments, two nirvanas are the same--even

though the paths to them are different--]
the reason the two--there is--I've never seen-or I can't remember any distinction
ever made between them - it's a long story I mean you could - if you want [student: yeah why don't you - why don't you uh more accurately draw one
nirvana with two with a 'Y' coming out of it - wouldn't that be much better?
nah-[student: or are you a little chicken about that then?]
okay next - we go one more and then we have a break-[student: thanks]
[laughs] by the way I repeat - if you weren't learning anything - you know if
were easy--you wouldn't be learning too much - it's hard, it's hard--I told you in
the last class that you're gonna get - you get the baby presentation of those three
principle paths - and the rest of five years is just in more detail of those [unclear]
principle paths - and that's what you're getting now [student: but I didn't know it was going to be more confusing--]
[laughs] it is confusing--this point is difficult, and I, I--it's difficult for me and that's
why you're confused - and I--there's no clearer debate on it in the monastery-you've got Atisha against Maitreya, I mean - who are we?! [laughter]
[student: selfless is difficult enough [unclear]]
--it's difficult - it's difficult it's difficult- they're both enlightened beings - they
probably wanted us [unclear] to come up with some realizations about it[student: if this even a significant--]
[unclear] as she says--as Carolyn said
[student: is this even a significant point or are we just debating--]

don't think it's not-[student: --oh please--]

don't think it's not - the exercise of debating seemingly insignificant points is
what makes your knowledge of the significant points firm
[student: it's practice--]
yeah--and it's the fact that your--I even use insignificant points, rather than
watching TV - you see
[student: it's mind training--]
spending time this way--is keeping you close to the dharma - and that's one
function of debating things--that--okay - I mean you're never gonna sit there in
your next retreat and worry 'oh my god is this love for other people my main
mind or --'
[student: [unclear]three Bodhichittas--[laughter]
but if you study the three Bodhichittas, the three Enlightenments, means you
gotta be forced to ask the questions that they've asked: 'what's the difference
between these nirvanas?' and I'm gonna say what's the difference in what they
think emptiness is? And the study of what - the study of the wrong ideas of
emptiness is the best way to perceive emptiness, and in fact the first Panchen
Lama became the first Panchen Lama because he he was a master at that - he
wrote a whole book about it-[student: what emptiness isn't?]
what emptiness isn't - and he's got a beautiful book - and someone should
translate it some day - there's a devil over here and an angel over here, and the
devil says, 'oh, emptiness is nothingness! yeah - [unclear] you know - just
[unclear]; and the angel says, 'no no I mean, anyone can see that - when you get
knocked on the head you see that - that's not - that's not what emptiness is
And then the devil says, 'you're right, you're right--oh emptiness is ah'--and
they--and they--it's a long book - we studied it - we studied-[student: I remember--]

it for like a year--and it gets and it gets more and more and more fine and at the
end you swear to god the devil is right - because it sounds so good - it sounds
like what you've heard in all the dharma lectures you went to -- and then the
angel says, 'no, not quite--there's a little bit of problem here--' and the devil also it's a - he's also - not only ego grasping - he's describing egotism also - he says
'c'mon taking care of yourself - I'm the one who took care of you all these years you know worry about John - is really the best - I mean if you don't worry about
him who's going worry about him?' There's this Hebrew expression they used to
teach me [student: yes--]
you know - if you don't worry about yourself - then who's going to worry about
yourself? It's actually not the full expression-[student: 'if not now when--']
yeah--nah - in the full expression is well, 'God give me the strength not to worry
about myself--' there's more to that saying-[student: oh - I never heard that--]
but people only quote the first half [laughter]
[student: [unclear] the rest of it is, when it's wrong I correct it]

okay so anyway - it doesn't hurt--what'll happen is you'll forget all these details
but because you debated the details you will always remember the main two
points-[student: and furthermore you can't get to Buddhahood without getting through
this anyway--sooner or later--right? --]
yea--aiy-[student: and Maitreya and Asanga would not have referred to it otherwise--]
well, they spent time debating it so it must be important--okay--

[student: well we can't just skip over this understanding it - jump right over
that--]
okay so total enlightenment--how about 'for the benefit of others?'-[student: it seems--]
why is that necessary?
[student: it still seems to me that all of this--that all of these are caveats - meaning
that--it's more like]
so Kylie, so Kylie - what you're saying is that no one aspires to enlightenmentnot for the purpose of others?
[student: no I think, I think - I wrote down maybe an easier way to say it - the
wish for total enlightenment, with the correct understanding of what that total
enlightenment entails--]
you cannot perceive correctly what total enlightenment is until you reach it-period. And that's a debate we have-[student: right - but it it seems that--]
so everyone - so according to you - you can't have Bodhichitta until you become
a Buddha [laughs]
[student: no no the point is--]
seriously-[student: the point is, of all the multitudinal dimensions of enlightenment apparently for beings like us - the most important one- or one of the most
important one's to keep in mind is the quality of it that it is for the benefit of all
beings because it's present in the aspiration and it's also present in the result--]
okay which leads me to a little side point - why are we studying Bodhichitta and
why do we study refuge? What is the order of this book? Who's deciding the
order of this book?

[student: Is that the three paths?--of Buddhahood]

I haven't told you about the structure of the [b: Ornament], and I'm not going to
tonight [laughs] [laughter]--but I'll tell you briefly - we are discussing the
qualities which typify a Buddha--there are ten - and that's why we got into
refuge and that's why we're into Bodhichitta now. It's all with reference to a fully
enlightened being--these are-[student: and that's not the same as the qualities of--like on [unclear]
spontaneous-no - no these are ten qualities that are typical of Buddhas, and that's how the
Prajnaparamitas start their discussion of emp- of-of refuge and how they're
discussed there start their discussion of Bodhi--that's why we're talking about
these subjects in this order - just so you know - okay - these relate to the ten
qualities of a BuddhaSo for the benefit of others, why do we have to put that
in definition? --Why is that necessary?
[student: I--I would think it's to keep people's eye on the ball--]
it's very simple, much simpler--it's to- it's to
[student: [unclear] Mahayana]
it's to block these other two kinds of wish for enlightenment. These are wishes
for enlightenment - but they're for lower enlightenment, they're not for full
enlightenment - we have to say it because they are two other kinds of wishes for
enlightenment that are selfish [student: I thought we said a little earlier that real enlightenment is 'Buddhahood'
- and these other things are would-be enlightenments--]
No they're enlightenment--they're one of the Three Enlightenments--what are
you talking about?
[student: [unclear] instead--higher nirvana and lower nirvana--]
they're enlightenments - Three Enlightenment! What are you-[student: yeah I know but [unclear] have problems with the word
'enlightenment' [unclear]]

what hat you got on? what hat are you wearing?
[student: I'm wearing - well--]
no when you're in the Svatantrika you've gotta go Svantantrika--you can't fool
around--we believe in three enlightenments--and Mahayana - you have to define
Mahayana Bodhichitta this way - to block those lower wishes for enlightenment period. Don't get mixed up with Persangika-[student: well wait a minute though-they accept a lot of weird stuff-[student: Svantantrika wouldn't say - wouldn't have this up there - would they?]
sure they would
[students: sure they would; that's their definition]
that's their presentation-[student: are these definitions Svatantrika definitions?]
sure, we are Svatantrika for the next six weeks-[student: we are now Svatantrika?]
yup-[student: thank you]
[student: what's Svatantrika?]
Lower Madhyamika school-[student: this [unclear] the beginning of the class--]
[student: Svatantrika doesn't mean--according to me but it's not correct-Svatantrika--]

[laughs] The Persangikas don't accept it - [unclear]

[student: the bottom lines is that - we say the three because we're wrong - but
we don't know it--]
nnnhhh-[student: [laughs] [unclear]]
by the way, Kylie--that is a separate subject, it's called {unclear} which is 'why did
the Buddha ever teach any--' this is all Buddha's speech--Buddha taught this-[student: sure--]
right --ahh - I think we'll take a break there okay - so -then we'll talk about
[unclear] take a short break - okay - come back in ten minutes
[cut]
is equivalent to when the Buddha said, 'kill your father, kill your mother'--it's
not true--you have to interpret it [student: can I clarify--before the first thing you said was - the definition of
Mahayana Bodhichitta - it is the awareness or consciousness, not a mental
function--a mental function is like the feelings the thoughts, right? It's main mind
- then you had said to me is Bodhichitta the thought?--So are you are you
differentiating between Bodhichitta and Mahay--]
no no that's not the point
[student: so you're still saying Mahayana Bodhichitta Bodhichitta is the main mind that has the thoughts--you have to say it that way you have to write it that way - Bodhichitta is the main mind that has those two
thoughts-[student: but then before you said but is it the main mind that has those two
thoughts or is it the thoughts? And when I said the thoughts - you said, 'yes'
that's right--]

No, that's not correct [student: main mind and the thoughts]
it's main mind that has the two thoughts
[student: is the main]
that possesses the two thoughts
[student: it has to be a main mind-[student: alternate]
[student: to contain the two thoughts--therefore it couldn't exist in the mind with
the thoughts]
that's the best argument I've ever heard
[student: say that again--]
[students: [unclear] in order to helpyou see see--excuse me?]
[student: If it weren't the main mind it couldn't hold the thought
thank you
[student--so when you had a thought you would lose your Bodhichitta - if the
Bodhichitta wasn't main mind--]
[student: that's it Michael, when I think of it in terms of Buddhahood it's sort of-[unclear]]
[student: okay, that--thank you--]
[student: you see what I mean?--]
[student: yeah I dothank you]
[cut]

please don't write anything--this weeks-[student: yeah could you pass those out?]
I just want you to listen--just listen and we'll finish on time--we can finish on time
-- the first question is: 'Give the whole definition' which is on page two--you just
gotta write it out--and I'll tell you why--you don't have to memorize it - I just
want you to go through the exercise in writing it out because the next questions
are gonna be- you're gonna have to be looking at the definition to answer the
rest of the questions - okay question number two - 'What thing is not this wish
for enlightenment, but might be confused with this wish for enlightenment if we
left the word 'main' out of the definition?' Like if I didn't say 'main mind'--if I just
said it's the thought that you'd like to have enlightenment - what might be the
confusion?
[student: between the mind that's having the thoughts and the thoughts?--]
no
[student: between Mahayana and Bodhichitta?]
Why does Maitreya have to put mind in the definition--main main?
[student: because there were two types--right?]
[student: because [unclear] it's two thoughts, and you can't have two thoughts at
once--]
yeah- I mean - the thing that people might confuse is that the-that one of those
thoughts is itself Bodhichitta - that's why he has to say, 'The mind which holds
those two thoughts' - That's why he has to say 'main'--why did he put 'main' in
there? He's trying to prevent you from thinking it's only one or two of those
thoughts--it's both of the thoughts together--you can't have two thoughts
together - so it's the mind that's holding those two thoughts together. So the
word 'main' is meant to prevent someone from thinking that Bodhichitta is a
wish.
[student: you really don't want us to write anything?]

well I think [unclear] are[laughs]

[student: everyone else is--]
I don't mind, go ahead write - make yourself notes, but don't get distracted-cause otherwise [unclear]
[student: could you repeat yourself--]
yeah, the reason we put the word 'main' in the definition, is that we don't want
people to think that just one of those thoughts could be Bodhichitta, it's not, it's
both of the thoughts together - it's the mind that's holding both of the thoughts
together. That's we have to say 'main mind.' What translation do I use for
Bodhichitta? What was it in that book?
[student: which book?]
The Tsong Khapa book-[student: oh - you use the simple one--]
the wish for enlightenment! okay - is Bodhichitta a wish? A wish?
[students: two wishes--]
it's two wishes! So you can't call some thing--two things--so we call it the main
mind that has those two wishes--and that's why we have to say main--it's really
two wishes-[student: isn't it the cohesion of those two wishes?]
which is impossible so you have to say 'the mind that has those two wishes' It's
the mind that has those two objects
[student: [unclear]]
[laughs]
[student: no, 'cohesion' means that something that connects two things--]

I understand--okay - number three, 'What thing is not this wish, but might be
confused with it if we left out the word 'mental awareness'?' Is there any such
thing as any other kind of awareness-[students: yeah the Buddha--[unclear]]
the Buddha's sensory consciousnesses-[students: [unclear] you interrupted Michael]
What thing is not this wish for enlightenment--it's not Bodhichitta, but might be
confused with it if we didn't say the word, 'mental' in the definition--okay?
'mental' awareness-[student: before you said let's say you hear with your--no--you hear--]
Toe! The Buddha hears with his Toe!
[student: right right so you can interchange like there's no ear and feel--and
okay--interchange - ]
yeah, the Buddha
[student: but it's not gonna be the same sense--]
The Buddha hears everything in the universe - that ever happened, and that ever
will happen with his toe
[student: could he feel so with his--I don't know--eyes?
yeah yeah, he feels warmth with this eyes [student: so it's not the Buddhas sensory consciousness it's the reason we--]
right--right that's why we say mental - and this is how I want to handle these
definitions - cause if you understand why each word is there then you
understand the definition--and in fact that's pretty much what we spend our time
debating in the monastery--why is it call 'mental' awareness? Because we want to
say it's not those Buddha senso--does a Buddha sense awareness have
Bodhichitta?

[students: yeah--]
It has love right? It has that ultimate love, it's not Bodhichitta - it's not mental -okay--and that why we didn't - and that's why we have to put in the word
mental-[student: because--I'm sorry I didn't get that--]
That's why you have to put in the word mental-[student: You mean the Buddha can't have Bodhichitta with his nose?]
Apparently not-[student: He'd be aware of nice feelings but [unclear]]
He can know all things with every [unclear] object--he can know all things-[student: so Bodhichitta can only be achieved through a ment--[unclear]--]
No - I - doesn--I think we can have a good debate, I mean I'll ask my lama - I'll
debate him - I'll say, 'If the nose of the Buddha can perceive emptiness which it
can--the Buddha can perceive emptiness by smelling--then by can't it have
[unclear]
[student: ask it again--]
[student: mental why is it mental
[student: it has to do with the Buddha sensory consciousness--but I --you should
ask--]
[student: Michael, could you say that again?]
{student: why doesn't he have [unclear] bodhichitta [unclear]?]
Alright, Buddha already does have [unclear}
[student: he's already there--]
well if he didn't have Bodhichitta-it wouldn't be Mahayana--

[student: could you say it one more time-just say the sentence--why is it mental?]
the reason we say mental awareness is that we don't want people to think that
the sensory awareness of the Buddha, which is extraordinary, could be
Bodhichitta-[student: which could be anything else but--]
Looks like that-[student: then why wouldn't you want the sensory awareness of the Buddha
[unclear]?]
[student: let's [unclear] number three]
Okay question, next question--'What would happen--what thing is not this wish
but might be confused with this it if we left out the words, 'belonging to the
Greater Way?' And I didn't tell you that yet, okay? In here it says--why do--why
do we have to say here, it is the main mental awareness that belongs to the
Buddha mind?
[student: [unclear] Mahayana Bodhichitta--]
Is there any--is there any love of this power-this looking to Buddhahood for the
sake of all other beings, that's not Bodhichitta? That's not Mahayana Bodhichitta?
Is there anything focused to this for all sentient beings, that's not Mahayana?
There is--there is--I have to teach you something
[students: there is? oh no]
there's a little place right [laughter]
[student: just before it, 'that which produces Mahayana?']
Yup.
[student: Which is really Mahayana in this sort of a prenatal state, right?]
It's called

[student: 'Nascent Bodhichitta'-- sugar?--]

[student: oh no - not the 'sugar cane bodhichitta'!]
[student: yes [unclear] finally-- comes and goes--]
Now that's goosebump enough for me--we're talking sugar cane Bodhichitta It's called {unclear--por shimkyi sem tabu semkye} okay--that's why--what was
the definition of Bodhichitta-from the first class - How do you know when
you've reached Mahayana - when you get?-[student: when you think of others--]
When you get the genuine wish to become a Buddha for all other beings--this is
the one before 'genuine'--we said genuine in that definition - back in the summer
[student: isn't that akin to like renunciation when can think of nothing else other
than working for others - [unclear]
yeah yeah - that's genuine renunciation as opposed to goosbump - and there is a
pre-bodhichitta bodhichitta --that's not real bodhichitta and it's called, it's called
artificial bodhichitta - it's not the genuine bodhichitta,
[student: it's just [unclear] it?]
it tastes like bodhichitta - that's why we call it sugar cane bodhichitta-[student: but what is the aspiration?]
did you--did you ever have sugar cane? You ought to call Anila, she's an expert
it's hollow on the inside--it tastes great on the outside - the skin, the tube, on the
inside it's not the real thing, but it really does taste a lot like bodhichitta-[student: where does the - do these fall in the aspiration phase of generating
Bodhichitta?]
We'll talk about it next week-[student: well what is it if it's not the real thing? If it's not--[unclear]]

Next class--it's a very strong feeling--that you have to kind of force yourself to
get, it still takes some effort for you to get yourself in the mood that you'd like to
achieve Buddhahood for all other--that's pretty much the realm that we are in if
you who you seem to be. We are-[student: and this is a pre-requisite--]
oh yeah you have to have it
[student: it's an absolute pre-requisite--]
you will go through it - it's where you try to force yourself to like everybody
[laughter] no- and that's the first step [student: [unclear] you seen this bum and then you think oh he's a bum and then
you go no no really--[unclear]
yeah yeah, that's the first step, that's the first step, I mean actually this is
incredibly harder than that - this is much harder than that--but that's the baby to
this baby-[student: right or somewhere along--]
and you can imagine that it's not spontaneous--it's not it's not truly heart felt it's a
little artificial you have to force yourself to feel that way--and that's that's sugar
cane bodhichitta [student: ao it's before it's [unclear]]
it's actually sugar cane skin bodhichitta but I'm not gonna[unclear]
[student: so so once it's spontaneous - then it's the real thing - that's the idea--]
Genuine means-yeah- what is the difference between genuine and sugar cane--I
was trying to think about it before I came in-- [laughs]
[student: a little bit of [unclear]]
[student: it's complete--[unclear]]

I'd say that it's heartfelt and not--there's a word that's used for sugar cane which
is called {tch mong} which means uh - it's the difference between real cream
and those little cups and the milk dream - it's the word they use for that - it's the
word in Tibetan that they use for that - artificial - it's artificial - it's a - you can
only get it by trying to get it-[student: so is that better? - ]
you can only get it by forcing yourself to have it
[student: but you sort of have--]
it's with effort and the other is effortless--the other is genuine - it's a genuine
feeling of love - you know you've had cases where you're trying to be nice to
somebody even when you [unclear] feel it - and in bodhichitta you really do feel
it [student: cause you intellectually understand that's how you should be--]
yeah the way you get there is that
[student: right]
but when it comes - when it comes, the first moment of achieving bodhichitta you have an incredible feeling of flowing out to people - and it's not a conceptual
thing at all - you have a feeling almost like a river coming out of you - and - for
other people - and then you have another feeling of vowing that you will- that
everything you do from now on will be for other people - okay the next
question is easy - so - by the way that's why we have to say 'belonging to the
Greater Way'--because there are wishes to achieve enlightenment, total
enlightenment - for the sake of others--blah blah blah--main mental
consciousness which are not on the Greater Way - they don't belong to the
Greater Way --the Greater Way starts here by the way-[student: it's before--]
The Greater Way starts with achieving Bodhchitta, genuine Bodhichitta - [laughs]
[student: more accurately, the section of 'the' way and the 'only' way --]

yeah yeah yeah - okay okay they might not

[student: the ending section of the big way is called the Greater Way--]
okay - next one - 'What thing is not this wish but might be confused with it if we
left out the word 'total' - 'total enlightenment'?' Is there a wish for enlightenment?
[student: yeah}
yeah it's these two - it's these two lower wishes - you can say the wish for
enlightenment that a Self-made Buddha has, who is not self-made and not a
Buddha--or it could be the wish for enlightenment that [unclear] has - [unclear]?
[student: that was the next one - that self-made Buddha erroneously believes that
their wish for that which - what a Buddha is or says 'you know what it's
something like--]
No they just want Nirvana - not interested in that-that - they want a state where
their suffering is free-[student: so they are actually talking about different kinds of enlightenment they recognize -]
it's called enlightenment--okay
[student: I mean everyone here is probably very interested in becoming a
Buddha and would enjoy feeling Nirvana but would just do that as froth at the
moment I guess so-]
it's considered an inefficient to the Mahayanas - so why mess around with these
two - let's [unclear]
[student: so since nobody here--you've persuaded us that we shouldn't stop
there - we should go for Buddhahood - ]
Actually you should just never start here--start here
[student: then how could anyone want to achieve something less than what was
there? I don't quite understand [unclear]--]

Oh very attractive, I mean very very attractive--actually you-you're motivation

right now is to feel good in this life, it's not - your not Buddhist yet--when you
have the motivation: 'At least I would like to stop my pain,' comes [unclear],
you've just - you've just like reached somewhere down here--you know--when
you truly see that this life is unsatisfactory, and you would like to stop this kind
of --it's called {den reb dun chepa}, "I would like to stop this kind of body and this
kind of sick mind--you've just reached the desire from [unlcear]-[student: so that everybody goes through those phases - ]
uh, in a sense - in a sense, in some sense - you do get through the moti--it's why
we call it shared, you do share their motivation - in a sense--okay--the last
question is, 'What would-what thing is not this wish but might be confused with
it--if we left out the words: 'for the benefit of others'?'
[student: isn't that the same thing as you just said?--]
What thing is--looks like Bodhichitta but it's not Bodhichitta, if you don't, if you
don't have a concern for others?
[student: nirvana]
no, nirvana's a state--this is a--we're talkin' [unclear]-- it's a again, it's a again, so
it's those two
[students: again - those two wishes--]
yeah yeah,
[student: that's --I said that--]
yeah, it's again this wish to not do it for others--it's actually these two together these are not for others, they are for yourself-[student: so everybody's [unclear] erroneously believes it's for others, so we
have to add that caveat in?
No this is the definition of Mahayana Bodhichitta--we're talkin the definition of
Mahayana Bodhichitta--

[student: Michael, we always talk about if I benefit the one self for the benefit of
others, you know, either one - what about if you have, you want to do it for the
benefit of some people but some people [unclear]--] [laughter]
[student: --you [unclear] fairly, right?]
[student: no no - I mean, even people you know- but really people who--some
people you have a hard time really feeling that for--]
I told you when I studied vinaya this last month where I--there's a beautiful part
in the vinaya--we have 253 vows , nuns have 364 vows - and when they - you
get to them and they say okay, 'I like 252 of them--but that one,' ' I can't keep it, I
have no intention of keeping it--it really doesn't fit me--if you have that thought
in your mind, as you take the vow, the vow doesn't form, in your being, you're
not a monk--you can wear the clothes the rest of your life and you're not a
monk--if you any thought in you mind --if you have any intention not to keep all
of them--and--it's the same answer, I think, you know there's like everybody on
the planet 'ex--cept'--[laughs]--I don't believe you'd get Bodhichitta--it's not
bodhichitta--when you get the real-[student: yeah, but what do you call that!?]
when you get that event, when that event happens to you, when you achieve
bodhichitta it's like a light which is going out from a center which is you--and it's
not touching you, it's only for others - you're just sending it out--and you have
the physical sensation of light going out to other people-[student: but do you still like - I mean - I mean-I'm trying to figure it out because I try to apply and it really so difficult - you have to have compassion for
everybody - but sometimes it's very difficult to compassion for some people]
[student:--equanimity--]
[student: do you do you start like that--I mean--to build this, this -this um feeling
of bodhichitta--do you start like having for some people and then you work
your way for everybody? Or you just have one--]
Shantideva talks a lot about, you know when you're trying to achieve
Bodhichitta--to do it--what you can handle - don't do more than you can handle--

you know? Don't go out on the subway and say okay 'I love every bum on the
subway' and then try because you'll fail you'll--it'll collapse and you'll give up-you'll give up Buddhism. Do you--start with the people that you're close to[student: you can handle--]
you have some bad feeling about and try to - and then you weren't here in the
first course - you do those seven steps - you do the seven [unclear]--okay I think
we [unclear] right?
[student: it's ten after--]
okay ten after - that's all the questions I'm [unclear] - so I'm going to do it one
more time - I'm going to go around - I'm going to ask each person - 'Why add
main to the definition?'
[student: Because it's, it's composed of the two wishes--]
Good-[student: it's not just one thought--so the main--]
mind that contains those two thoughts--okay?
[student: right--]
so that's why--okay--Why does it have to be--Why do we have to say, 'mental?'
Isn't it obvious that it's always mental?
[student: no because it can be confused with a Buddha-does not-how do you say
- feel the same way that um- humans do right okay-[student: --and so they have different sense - eh the Buddha may feel with other
senses as well--]
it's possible that there could be an ear consciousness that have a similar feeling
but it's not bodhichitta--okay - [unclear] 'Why should it belong to the Greater-why do we have to say belong to the Greater Way? Isn't that obvious that it

always belongs to the Greater Way?

[student: no because of that oval circle before--[laughter]--]
right--cause you can have a very very similar emotion - you can have a very
very similar two emotions in one main mind-where you have the sameeverything is complete except it's not it's not spontaneous-it's not heartfelt - it's
somehow forced- okay? At the stage of sugar cane bodhichitta - uh - Why do we
say total, John?
[student: to qualify that it's the Buddhahood rather than the path of the Listeners
or Self-made Buddhas--]
yeah, the two lower enlightenments, you want the total enlightenment - and it
always, as I say again - I read this many many Buddhist scriptures - I was very
confused--I wondered why they say total enlightenment - enlightenment's
enlightenment - it's not there's two semi-enlightenments-[student: is that called lower and upper nirvana? Is that what--]
It's called the nirvana of a Self-made Buddha - it's called a nirvana of a Listener,
but I I don't remember any distinction made between them, they are {unclear-che pa}--they are the total cessation of all suffering--period
[student: no it's not between them it's between the nirvana that's achieved by the
lower paths-oh between this and this?
[student: --and the nirvana that's achieved by - yeah--]
big difference - yeah - this--when you hit this you always get omniscience
[student: that's usually when you [unclear]]
[student: is that what you keep calling [unclear]?]
together with the end of your suffering-[student: omniscience? what's that?]

together with the end of your suffering--these people just get the end of their
suffering-[student: you usually don't say upper - you usually just say nirvana and lower-]
uh, Lynn why do we say 'for the benefit of others?'
[student, Lynn: because the two lower enlightenments don't include the benefit
of others--]
good, yeah, right--they're not interested - they are a wish for enlightenment they are {semkye} they are a wish for enlightenment - but they are not 'the' wish
for enlightenment cause they're not for others [student, Tom: and they are the wish for enlightenment which is sort of
bodhichitta but we can call it bodhichitta but we have to be careful of that--]
yeah, good, good, Tom wants me not to call it bodhichitta--and he wants me not
to call these enlightenment--and I suppose he doesn't want me call them Buddhas
or them to be called Self-made--and that's a valid point--but they do have
[unclear]
[student, Tom: no no you can call it - but I want you to distinguish between
which hat you're wearing and say, 'this is the erroneous version of
enlightenment' and now we're back in the Persangika School--]
[students: [unclear]-no it's different schools--it's relative]
[student, Tom: by our school--]
and I repeat--and I repeat- you have to learn monastic etiquette--when you're in
Svatantrika - you swear by Svatantrika - you defend the Svatantrika-you fight
for the Svatantrika-you have to get-it's not a bad thing-mentally get your self
into Svatantrika - become a Svatantrika for six weeks--it's it's not-it won't hurt okay? [laughs] it's--and then
[student: that would be easy if you can forget the [unclear] play that's happening
outside that play--]

when you get to Prasangika you'll be a fantastic Prasangika cause you'll

understand the Svatantrika - we believe that we must understand the Hinyana-we spend a lot of time on the Hindu schools - we understand the Hindu schools
better than anybody in India still understand the Hindu schools [laughs] we
understand the Samkya school very very well - we spend years on it - we can
defend those schools too--and I suppose in this culture we'll have to learn - you
should learn Christianity--go to Bible class - learn it well - learn the beliefs - and
then you know it - then you understand what you believe better--this is the
exercise--and don't feel uncomfortable with it - learn it-learn to defend it you
know - it will make your later understanding much deeper-[student: as opposed to what? to defend it against what?]
in your own mind!- why do you believe that emptiness is not three kinds? You
know what I mean? Is emptiness--I'll give you an example-Is the emptiness of
this book the fact that it that it doesn't not come from karma? Is that it's
emptiness?
[student: doesn't not come from karma - that it does come from karma--]
all all emptinesses are double negatives--the fact that it comes from karma is its
relative [unclear] -or is it?
[student: it's its dependent origination - ]
is this dependent origination that it comes from karma?
[student: yeah]
Kylie, Prasangika?
[student, Kylie: pardon me?]
Is the book's dependent origination the fact that it comes from karma?
[student, Kylie: the dependent origination of the book in the Prasangika school
is--]
yes or no?

[student, Kylie: --is that it comes from your perception of it--which is influenced
by karma--]
so is it or isn't it? Is it's dependent origination the fact that it comes from karma?
[student, Kylie: it's the fact that it comes from your perception of it--that's it's--]
good - it's not - it's not the fact that it comes from your [unclear]
[student, Kylie: --now your perception of it is still colored by your karma but it
still remains--]
it's forced by your karma [student: so directly it does come from the karma--]
yeah but that's not it's dependent origination - in the highest sense - it's the fact
that it's made up by your mind [student: so secondary, it's a secondary cause--]
why is it made up by your mind? you're forced to by karma!
[student: so the karma is a secondary cause--]
yeah - so is its emptiness it's it's not existing in any other way?
[student: any other way than what?]
karma, through karma - is the emptiness of this book it's not existent any other
way but through karma? if you finally reached the point, where you realize
directly, that it's not anything except karma - a result of karma - would you
perceive emptiness?
[student: no]
no - that's a very delicate question-you know - that's a very fine point - and you
can go and meditate on emptiness and if you don't understand that you might
waste a month or six months - and it's it's extremely close to the correct view you know what I mean? So you have to make these distinctions or else you'll go

in and wa--you maybe even haven't been exposed to those distinctions - you've
been exposed to extreme wrong ideas like: emptiness is watching my mind - or
emptiness is concentrating on nothing [student: nothing--]
letting the thoughts flow--you know [student: or suppressing all thought--]
yeah, or that that has anything to do with the meditation on emptiness - it's
completely wrong - this is even more subtle and it's wrong - and it won't get you
- it won't stop your - it won't let you perceive emptiness directly - and you won't
achieve anything - so those-[student: you achieve something very [unclear]]
so there is a reason to study the wrong views - and then you you're more certain
- you understand better the correct view - so that's like the [unclear] of being a
Svatantrika for a while--yeah? did you have a question?
[student: nnhh nhhh]
okay good nightdon't be don't overwhelmed I mean if you think you're
overwhelmed sleep in a monastery for ten years while monks are screaming
[unclear] and uh -[prayer: short mandala [cut]]
how this book came to -[student: did we get the homework?]
we're giving you the homework, I know you're dying for it--[laughs] [laughter]
here's the homework - everyone take one please--good night remaining tape is conversation re: homework - papers - lots of paper crinkling
noises etc. - maybe 40 sec. of this

The Asian Classics Institute

Course II: Buddhist Refuge
Class Four: Classifications of Bodhichitta
Geshe Michael Roach
Transcribed by Angie Overy

I asked him, but I, I think you [unclear] and the second question was, I wasnt
sure it was correct to say you couldnt have those two desires in your heart at
the same time, same thought. And he said, not correct to say that. You can have
them both in your mind at the same moment because they are [unclear] the
word in Tibetan is [unclear], means, complementary.
You cant have a smell consciousness and an eye consciousness at the same
moment but you can have the wish to help others at the same moment. You can
have the [unclear][student]
Well, any, anytime that they are complimentary.
And then, like, I would
probably say anger and [unclear], [laughs] you know what I mean. Something
like that.
And then, whats the last one? I asked him about whether the Buddha can have
bodhichitta [unclear]. I mean, when [unclear].
And I re-read the text. Theres a quotation that says that he [unclear], twentythousand [unclear]
[student]
For him.
[student]
No, no. I mean you cant have a thought [unclear] eye consciousness [unclear]
[student]
Oh, yeah. [student] yeah, yeah [student]
Anyway, its in the definition. And when, when the opponent tries to slip in ,like,
eye consciousness, he leaves out the word mental consciousness, then they say
no, the Buddhas eye consciousness could be bodhichitta, could have bodhichitta.
And then they say thats impossible. And then the proof for it is a quotation

from the [unclear].

So,in Buddhism you can prove things either by logic or by [unclear] scripture.
Ill work on it. [laughter]
[student]
[unclear]
Were going to do that tonight. [student] Correct. [student] Were going to do
that tonight.
[student]
No, no, were going to talk about it tonight.
Okay. Were going to discuss four different ways to divide bodhichitta, the wish
for enlightenment.
And the first way is by level. This is by level. [cut]
[student]
Uh huh, classified.
This is how its going to be for the next four years. You learn the definition of
something and then the divisions of something.
You learn the details of something that you already learned about in the first
course.
[unclear] thats what knowledge is. [unclear]
[student] Yeah. [laughter] [students]
Lets say bodhisattvas thoughts.
[student]
No, [unclear] have to write it down [unclear] [laughs] [unclear]
Here we have to talk about the five paths. The five levels in Buddhism.
The first one is called [cut] accumulation. [cut]
Second one is called [student] path of preparation. You will study the [unclear]
what do you call it? [unclear]
I dont like the word insight. It is not insight. Insight means that you get some
kind of, you know, in depth understanding or something. Not that. It is a raw
direct seeing of emptiness.
[student]
This we call, I call it [unclear] [cut] [laughter]
Those are the five paths.
[student]
Its one time in all your trillions of lives you change permanently, completely.
Youll never come back. Youll never be the same again.
Somebody asked me about what happens when you die and youve seen the
path of seeing. You know, do you take birth in [unclear] [laughs] [unclear] see
emptiness right away?
No.

I asked my lama. He said, we call {backchak sepa}. You know and in your
childhood you dont remember what happened. But as soon as you are a certain
age that seed again ripens quickly and we call it, like, it reasserts itself.
Je Tsongkapas life story is like that. {backchak sepa} around seven years old,
you know, studying tantra, you know. [laughs]
So we dont claim that the first five, six years you can remember all those things.
We never say that.
[student]
Yeah. Direct perception of emptiness. [student]
[phone! /student]
Oh, sure. Well talk about it. [student on phone] [laughter]
[student]
[unclear] What do you guess is at the path of preparation?
Its an understanding of emptiness. Intellectual understanding of emptiness,
okay.
[cut]
What do you guess we have to have to even get on the first path?
[student]
Yeah, in the form of what? [students] Yeah, [unclear], true disgust with this
world.
Its called, dont be fooled by the name of the path, okay. They sometimes dont
have much to do with, you know.
You reach the first path the moment you have true renunciation. Thatisi the {..},
that is the measure of reaching the first path. Thats the definition of the first
path.
[student]
Oh, yeah. [unclear] accumulate enough merit to see emptiness intellectually or
something like that.
[student]
First path.
[student]
[unclear] the five paths.
[student]
Actually, theyre the same for every track but the requirements to reach them is
slightly different for each track. Were only talking bodhisattva track.
You dont have to worry about those details.
Habituation: getting used to what you saw at the path of seeing. The Tibetan
word for getting used to is the same as the Tibetan word for meditation, but
some people translate it as meditation
[student]

What you saw at the time of emptiness directly but the definition of them have
nothing to do with [unclear]
Theyre not necessary, theyre not descriptive words. [unclear] is [laughs] and no
more learning is.
[student]
Were going to talk about it. [student]
Well we call them paths but theres another [unclear] called levels. [unclear]
[student]
But you [unclear] the three to get in there, right. [unclear]
The purpose of this period, which is very long. This takes a few minutes. This
takes, maybe, half an hour. But this one takes a long time.
And its getting rid of your habit of seeing things as self-existent. [student]
Its what some people have called [unclear] they have translated as meditation
because the word is the same in Tibetan.
[student]
In the path of habituation [student] you get rid of your inborn habit of seeing
things as self-existent; your inborn habits of seeing things as self-existent.
Youre going to study this whole subject later but you need to know it for me to
tell you the four kinds of bodhichitta.
[student]
This is the path of seeing where you have your first direct perception of
emptiness. After that time you can never again believe that things are the way
we think they are, okay. [laughs]
And at that moment you lose the intellectual grasping to self-existence.
You can never again [student] yeah, for good. If anyone ever says to you, hey
things are self-existent.
You say, I know I still see them that way, but I know Im wrong. Okay.
At the end of the path of habituation you stop seeing them that way. That takes
a long time. That takes practising what you saw.
[student]
It depends on, no [student] Oh, yeah, normally, like, seven more lives.
[student]
I mean, compared to the path of seeing, [unclear]
[student]
Yeah, yeah. Ive got to teach you the levels before I can explain to you where
these bodhichittas are on this chart, okay. [laughs] Thats why Im doing that.
I dont really want to get into it too deeply. And Im not going to.
No more learning is the same as nirvana.
[student]
Get rid of all your bad thoughts. If you are on the bodhisattva track, Ill talk

about it.
Student]
When you reach the path of no more learning [student] its, the first moment on
ending all your bad thoughts permanently [student]
The first moment of the path of learning come together, no more learning, occur
at the same instant. [student]
Right. [student] Yeah.
Theres a big bitter debate about it in the monastery. You have a good [unclear]
[student] [laughter] [laughs]
Okay, no more learning.
If youre on the bodhisattva track, two things you have to add here. With true
renunciation you get bodhichitta, the wish for enlightenment.
[student]
Yeah, you have reached the first path. Thats the, thats the measure, thats the
requirement for having reached the first path.
When you get real bodhichitta in your mind youve reached path number one
on the bodhisattva track.
[student]
Of course, we know that from the first course. [student]
If you reach true renunciation you have reached the path of accumulation. Its
simultaneous.
[student]
No.
[student]
You could say that their wish for enlightenment perhaps occurs but they dont,
its not [unclear]
Okay, number five. If you achieve nirvana or no more learning, which are the
same thing, under the influence of bodhichitta, what happens?
Buddhahood. Okay.
If you achieve path number five with bodhichitta in your mind, in your heart,
you become a Buddha.
[student]
Were going to talk about it. And Ill talk about it tonight.
Okay, so those five. Those are the five paths.
Now, I can teach you the four kinds of bodhichitta [laughs] according to level.
Any questions about those five paths?
[student]
He has, his mind we will study at the end of the perfection of wisdom. Its the
subject of the eighth chapter. Were in the first chapter. The monks normally
spend about four years, five years on the first chapter.

Well get there. Its very, very active of course. Its omniscience.
And to learn about it is very exciting. Well talk about it.
[student]
No. No. [student] he knows all things past, present and future, in all places, in
all universes [student] at one moment. [student]
Yeah. He no longer is enquiring. He just knows everything. [students]
Automatically. Spontaneously. He sees all objects in the universe at one
moment. Everything that ever was, everything that ever will be, everything
that is now, everywhere. At every level of knowledge from atoms to he sees it
all.
He sees what we are thinking constantly. Thats sometimes helpful when youre
trying to be moral. To be aware that he is totally conscious of your mind at this
moment.
And hes in this room. Once you do a {sange chudang tsok kyi choknam la} hes
in the room. [laughs] Okay.
Not boring and very dynamic, youll see.
[student]
Oh, were talking about the five paths because we want to talk about these four
kinds of bodhichitta; four kinds of wanting to be a Buddha.
Wanting to be a Buddha you can divide into four different kinds. And now Im
going to start, okay.
[student]
If you reach nirvana under the influence of bodhichitta you become a Buddha.
[student]
because Im talking about bodhisattva track. Remember last time I had three
arrows? Im only talking about the top arrow, the top track.
Were not talking about the two bottom tracks [unclear]
So, really, how many paths are there [unclear]?
Fifteen.
Cos youve got five for each for the three paths, but you dont have to worry
about it. Youre going to learn that in great detail later. In this scope which we
say [unclear]
{..} is wanting to help a living being and when you look at a living being you
think this is not, the way I see him is not the way he really is.
[student]
Yeah. The person with this level of bodhichitta, he, from having heard in class,
hes been in class, hes heard, he understands that hes seeing something wrong.
Hes grasping something wrong.
He has not understood it directly yet. But he, from his class time, you know, his
lama said look somethings going on. You are grasping this a self-existent. You

are grasping to something which doesnt even exist. When you are angry at
your boss, the boss which you are angry at does not exist. And thats the key.
Thats why you can get out of samsara. Thats why you can stop suffering
because the thing youre mad at, the object that you believe in it at that moment
because youre mad at it, doesnt even exist.
If you understood his nature you could not be angry at him, okay.
So, he understands that. He knows that but hes still doing it. He cant help it.
He doesnt really grasp what that means.
[student]
Intellectually.
So, where do you guess, in these five paths, this kind of bodhichitta is found?
Yeah. The first two, yeah. Okay.
So, bodhichitta number one relates to these two paths because you have to have
bodhichitta starting here. This is the first time you get bodhichitta. And up to
and this is the point at which youre understanding emptiness intellectually
which you started tonight. But this refers to a very high understanding of
emptiness.
[student]
Yeah. A person who is acting out of belief, belief meaning okay I believe what
my lama said. Im grasping to something.
When I get mad at my boss Im grasping to something thats not there but I
dont quite, you know, I dont clearly understand it yet but I believe that Im
wrong.
I believe that somethings going on. It sounds pretty good to me what he said.
I have not understood it directly. I havent seen my bosss emptiness directly but
everything that person says about hes blank, my boss is blank because his wife
loves him and I dont like him so he cant have both qualities. He doesnt have
either qualities. I believe that so I wont get angry. But I dont quite understand,
I havent seen it directly.
[student]
Yeah. Yeah. Hes believing in the emptiness of what hes grasping but he cant
stop it.
[student]
Oh, hes looking at his boss and wishing he could become a Buddha to help his
boss. [student] Okay. [laughs] But as he looks at his boss he still sees him as selfexistent and he but he understands that hes doing something wrong because he
believes in what his lama said. He believes that the thing Im grasping to I must
be messed up here somewhere. I must be doing something wrong. I dont
understand it, you know.
I havent perceived his emptiness directly. [student]

So, five levels. Anybody who has the real wish for enlightenment but who
hasnt seen emptiness yet is on this first level of bodhichitta.
[student]
Remember, what are we studying?
Prajnaparamita.
What are we studying?
Perfection of wisdom.
You cant be satisfied with plain old bodhichitta anymore. Theres got to be
what?
Theres got to be a deep understanding of emptiness going on at the same time
otherwise its not the perfection of wisdom.
Its not, its not, it doesnt even get into the four categories of bodhichitta.
[student]
They already want to become a Buddha to help all sentient beings but when they
look at those sentient beings, where are those sentient beings by the way?
Theyre in your office at work. I mean, dont think its, like, somewhere out in
the universe. The ones that are going to, they call it the ticket to Buddhahoood.
Theres a word in Tibetan that means ticket to Buddhahood. Its not all those
sentient beings out there, you know, Honk Kong, where ever, mars. The people
who will sharpen you, the people who will act as your foil, the people who will
spark your enlightenment are the people that you know around you, you know.
Its not, its not like, you have to have the motivation to help all sentient beings,
but the ones who you can get angry at, the ones who you have jealousy
towards, the ones that you feel desire for, those are the ones that at your job, in
your home, in you class. [laughs]
So you look at those beings, you look at, you know, Laura, and, and you say
okay I would like to wish that I become a Buddha for her sake. And then you
look at her, who is she? You know, is she empty or not?
And at this point, youre understanding, Im holding something about her.
Theres some way I that I grasp to Laura which is mistaken. My lama told me
and I believe it but I dont quite, I havent perceived it directly yet.
I can understand it intellectually but I have not seen it directly yet.
[student]
Yeah. [student] Yeah. [student]
Well dont forget that the main object of your emptiness meditation, of course,
when you talk about love its other people. So, in that time youre right. Youre
meditating on the emptiness of the sentient beings that youre supposed to be
trying to work for thats true.
But, I should say that, when you perceive emptiness for the first time, yours will
be Arials emptiness. The one that you perceive at that moment will be your

own emptiness. And it always is [unclear] Yeah.

[student]
Were getting there. Oh, level means spiritual level, spiritual, how far youve
gotten, okay.
When you have this kind of bodhuchitta is reserved for these two baby paths.
We would be very happy to get to the first path. [laughs] We dont have
bodhichitta and we havent reached the first path. [laughs]
[student]
Of bodhichitta, yeah. These four are four different kinds of bodhichitta which
occur on different occasions on these five paths.
[student]
What separate them are what separates the five paths. And thats the point Im
trying to make. Okay.
So, number two. Say {hlaksam}[repeat]. The word for the capital of Tibet should
have been {Hlasa}. Its just that some body misspelled it the first time, been that
way ever since.
{hlaksam}[repeat] [unclear] with me {takpay}[repeat] {semkye}[repeat]. By the
way, {hlasa} means Los Angeles. I like to point that out. {hlaksam takpay
semkye}. Where do you guess that {hlaksam tapay semkye} occurs?
Yeah, its the next one up. Its the next one up. [student] Yeah. Okay. It
[unclear] level three. [students]
Its the bodhichitta in the mind of a person who has experienced emptiness
directly. [students]
This person [student] this oh, Im sorry, yeah [unclear]. You know {hlaksam }
{hlaksam} is step number six in generating bodhichitta. Now, you know
[unclear] [laughter]
Come on, you had that on your final. You [unclear] [student] Yeah, personal
responsibility. {hlaksam} means to take absolutely personal responsible. I dont
care if every one, I dont care if nobody helps me. I dont even care if every one
attacks me. I dont care what people think about me. And I dont care if nobody
helps me. I dont care if nobody else is doing it. I will take responsibility to help
other people. Thats {hlaksam..}.
[student]
You can say, {hlak} means, special; {sam} means, thought; {tapay} means, pure,
pure special thought; {semkye} means, bodhichitta. But now you know what
[unclear] is. Its the bodhichitta in the mind of a person who no longer has any
belief in self-existence because you lose that the moment you see emptiness
directly for the first time. And if anyone in your life ever asks you again are
things the way they seem?
Youll say, no way.

[student] Yeah. Its the path of seeing. Its the bodhichitta in the mind of a
person who is on path number three.
[student]
Yeah. [student] Its a big, all beings are divided into two. Youre either a virgin
or non-virgin [laughs] those are, its a totally straight, pure line. After that you
are not the same any more. Youre a different kind of being.
[student]
Oh, yeah. Okay, bad news, path of seeing has ten levels. [laughter]
I should say, I shouldnt say that. I should say that the next three paths. These
are divided into ten levels.
[student]
Yeah, all together they have ten levels.
[student] Ah hah [student] No, its not. [student] No, its called that but of
course that comes before bodhichitta, right. Thats one of the causes for
bodhichitta so its a miss-noma in a way.
[student]
A person who has permanently lost belief in self-existence [student] because
theyve seen it directly. Have they lost their habit of seeing things as selfexistent, their inborn?
No.
[student] When he looks at beings he is trying to help he doesnt believe in their
self-existence anymore. He knows hes wrong. He knows he is perceiving them
wrong. But now, he understands what, he is perceiving wrong. Before he
didnt.
[student]
Because we are dividing bodhichitta by levels. [laughs]
[student]
Yeah. Its a bodhichitta which, its the bodhichitta of a person who has reached
this path.
[student]
Its the bodhichitta, which looks at its victims, [laughs] all sentient beings, and
says, and says, oh I used to think they were self-existent. Then I had that half
hour, that incredible half hour. Now I understand that they are not the way I
thought at all. [student]
No it doesnt change the taste we call it in Tibetan, [unclear]
bodhichitta, but its bodhichitta is more intelligent. [laughs]
Its bodhichitta
understands the sentient beings whats going on with them.
Okay, there are ten bodhisattva levels. Youve heard them. Theyre called
bhumi. I like to call them levels. Theyre called grounds because {sa} means
ground, bhumi means, ground, om vajra bhumi mandala. Thats the bhumi is

the ground.
[student]
Yeah, [unclear] [laughs]
Dont worry. Dont worry. [student]
Im going to tell you right now. This number two bodhichitta stops at level
number seven. [student] [laughs]
This is where it stops. [student]
You have this on eight to ten, you can say ground, I like level. [student] Yeah.
Yeah.
This is at bodhisattva level one through seven. This is at bodhisattva level eight
to ten. [laughs]
[student] Right. [student] I should say this is bodhichitta number two.
[student]
Yeah. Yeah. [student] Because this [laughter] [students]
Im saying that ten, after you perceive emptiness directly, the moment that you
see emptiness directly you reach the first bodhisattva level.
So the ten start, path number three starts [student] bhumi number one starts,
okay. And the bhumis last all the way up to number five.
[student]
Number two is bodhichitta number two. Im talking about what is bodhichitta
number two [student] Yes, yes, half of four. [student] half of four, [laughs]
three and a half.
This person has reached [students] bodhichitta number one. [laughter]
Its okay. Its okay. If it were easy you wouldnt be here. Bodhichitta number
one [laughter]. Ill use different colours, okay.
Bodhichitta number one happens at path number one. [student] path one to
[unclear]
And at which bodhisattva level?
Trick question. [laughter] Not there. Zero. No. Why?
You havent seen emptiness directly yet. You dont reach the first bodhisattva
level until you see emptiness directly.
You are a bodhisattva, okay. [student] Okay. Alright. You are a bodhisattva
but you havent reached the first bodhisattva bhumi. [unclear] bodhisattva starts
down here but not bodhisattva levels, alright.
Any questions?
[student] [laughter] Yeah [unclear] [laughter]
What path? What path is bodhichitta number two on?
[student] And?
You can say three to four and a half. [student] Why? Because he had,
bodhisattva levels one through seven include all the paths and part of path four.

Now Im about to tell you why theres a difference between this guy and this
guy. What [unclear]? Were talking this guy on number two. What path is he
on? [student]
Yeah. Four and a half. What do you want me to call it? [students]
Yeah. Now Ill talk about [unclear]. Youll understand it by the time [unclear].
[laughter] Dont worry. Unless you die first.
Okay {nampa } means, ripening, ripening. {nampa ..}means, ripening. {..}
means, bodhichitta.
You know youre the guinea pig class cos youre the first one that I teach all
these things. [unclear] I dont say half the things [laughter]
[students]
What did this person give up? What did this second guy give up? What
happened? Whats the difference between him and this guy? What, what
happened?
[student]
Directly. Directly. Okay. So he doesnt have one of the two kinds of grasping to
self-existence. Which was [unclear] intellectual one or the one thats inside
everybody down to bugs?
[student]
Yeah. He gave up the intellectual version of belief in self-existence. If you ask
him are things self-existence, hell say, self- existent hell say, no.
But if you say, do you see it that way?
Yes. I cant stop it. I know my eyes are screwed up. I cant [unclear] there,
okay.
But he knows intellectually. He saw emptiness directly. When he comes out of it
he sees things as self-existent. [student] he knows hes wrong. But he knows
hes wrong.
People before that dont know theyre wrong, [laughs] okay, or they believe
theyre wrong. Thats why [unclear] [student] [laughter]. Okay.
But what do you guess, this one, you can all guess that number fours going to
be bodhichitta of Buddha, right. Path number five. Thats easy.
But what do you think differentiates this path and this path? Theyve all seen
emptiness directly. Theyve both given up the intellectual belief in self-existence.
[student]
No, good guess. Theres a level inside of giving up the habit of seeing things as
self-existent, the one that even bugs have. The inborn, the one that youre born
with, the habit which youve had since beginning less time.
The innate habit of seeing things as self-existent has two parts in it. [students]
Okay, I got it. I got it. One goes from level one to level seven and the other
goes eight to ten. And thats why [unclear] And what is the difference?

[student]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can take all kinds of ignorance, right, and divide it into
two types: people who believe in self-existence and people who dont believe in
self-existence.
[student]
They think that what theyre seeing is right. The way things really are.
I ask [unclear] come from? Where did your boss come from, particularly, I ask
[unclear] also. [laughs] You know, when youre angry at some one youre
almost, you cant understand where they came from. I mean, if you do
understand where they come from you cant get [unclear].
Those two states of mind are contradictory. Anyway, this person hasnt proved
emptiness directly. This person has seen emptiness directly and has given up the
intellectual belief in self-existence.
Now, heres something cool. Number three gave up the inborn habit of seeing
things as self-existent.
[cut] [student] Number three. Third kind of bodhichitta, this, what makes it
different from the last one, this person gave up intellectual belief in self-existence.
You alright? No [student]
Number three doesnt see it any more. Im sorry. Yeah, you can say that. Hes
given up the habit of seeing things as self-existent. The habit that even bugs
have, that even amoebas have it. When an amoeba feels something they
[unclear] self-existence. Thats an inborn part of your mind [unclear]. [student]
Well, no, never go back. Right. [student]
He has a very holy twenty, thirty seconds, maybe a couple of minutes direct
experience of emptiness. He comes out of it [student] at the path of seeing.
[student] Hes asking whats the nature of the path of seeing/.
At the path of seeing you have a direct perception of emptiness then you come
out of it and again youre back in ignorance.
You still see things as self-existent but you dont believe yourself. You know
youre faking. [laughs]
[student]
Yeah, but you cant help yourself. You come out of that meditation you see
everything as self-existent again but you know youre wrong. You know your
eyes are fooling you. You know your mind is fooling you but you cant stop.
This guy can.
[student]
Different thing. Different tradition. [student] Yeah [laughter] [students]
Now this person, what makes number three what he is? Why is he different
from number two? You tell me.
[student]

What has he lost?

Hes lost his inborn habit of seeing things as self-existent. [students] hes lost the
inborn habit which every being has for all time up to now. Non-Buddhas, right.
[unclear] to see things as self-existent. He doesnt think things are self-existent
because he got over that but he still sees it. His eyes are still lying to him and he
understands that. [student]
But this person, this person has gotten rid of this habit. He no longer has the
habit. [student] This is the true nature of it. [students]
Let me ask you [students] Oh, gotten rid of. Gotten rid of, abandoned, lost,
eliminated [student]. Use eliminated. I like it. Lost it permanently. [student]
I love this question. Go ahead. [student] [laughter]
Ive been waiting. I hope its the right one. [laughter] [laughs]
Oh, because you have [student] habituation is getting rid of the habit.
Habituation is thinking over and over again what you saw and getting rid of that
inborn habit of seeing it that way. Its an inborn reflex that youve had for
trillions of years and it takes a lot of [student] [laughter]
I was hoping she would say, if this guy has seen [unclear] empty and if he has
gotten rid of what?
The habit of seeing things as self-existent well why isnt he a Buddha? Whats the
difference between him and a Buddha?
At this level, eight through ten, that number three guy, [unclear] in the sense
that he has given up the habit of seeing things as self-existent. He can never
have that occur in his mind directly again. But, he still has the potential for it to
happen.
He still has the mental seeds, the karma from past lives for him to see things as
self-existent again. [student]
He never will but he still has those seeds, yeah. Could he drop down? Well
have to talk about that.
But the question at this point [student] The person at this point does not see
things as self-existent any more but he still has those mental seeds in his mind
that may make it happen, that could make it happen. But they dont for him at
that point.
If he happens to digress from there he would again see things as self-existent.
[student]
No, they also stop omniscience. [students] Sure. Its [unclear] is karma. [student]
Thats a very difficult question. I wont get into it. Its a kind of karma that can
still have those [unclear].
[students]
You mean bodhichitta number three and not bodhichitta number four?
[student] Right, right, right. According to the Hinayana a lot of these occurred

in his mind in his life, in the last, in his life [unclear] ago.
According to the Mahayana he was born a Buddha. He decided to take birth in
this world. According to Hinanyana he was a non-Buddha [unclear]
Okay, thats clear, right?
[student]
well lets call this bodhichitta number three. How about that?
Im going to call these the paths. Im going to call these the levels. And lets call
these the four bodhichitta [unclear]. [student]
Its a person, you try [unclear]. If you dont give me all the elements of the
definition of bodhichitta [unclear] Give me those elements and add something
[unclear].
[student] Good, good, good. [student]
Maybe you better not say lost their tendency. Maybe you better think they no
longer see things as self-existent, okay.
Youre looking at sentient beings. You want to achieve Buddhahood for their
sake but when he looks at those sentient beings who are who?
The guys at work.
He does not see them as self-existent. [student] he still has the seeds in his mind
to do that but theyre not active, not seeing them as self-existent. [student]
You could say that. I never heard that. [unclear] [student]
He sees things as self-existent and he sees things as self-existent but he thinks he
might be wrong.
He sees things as self-existent but he doesnt think theyre self-existent.
He doesnt see things as self-existent but he still has a seed to see them as selfexistent.
He doesnt see them as self-existent, he doesnt think theyre self-existent and he
doesnt have any seeds left to see them as self-existent. [students] [laughter]
Im willing to, okay, lets say it again. [students] [laughter]
I dont mind if you describe it this way on your homework. And this is the
question.
Number one [students] bodhichitta number one thinks things are self-existent
but believes [student] his lama when his lama says its wrong to think they have
self-existence. Youre doing something wrong. [student] [unclear]
Alright, its almost too simple, but okay.
Person number two can never again think things are self-existent. [student] Ever
think again that things are self-existent but he is forced to see them as selfexistent despite himself.
Number three doesnt think theyre self-existent and doesnt see them as selfexistent but he still has the seeds in his mind to see them as self-existent.
Number four doesnt see them as self-existent, doesnt think theyre self-existent

and what? Has gotten rid of the seeds.

And thats why hes called the bodhichitta which has eliminated obscurations.
[student]
Wait, wait, are we talking level? [laughs] [students]
No, not saying that. Very good question. Only the Buddha can do that.
[student]
What are the antidotes that destroy the seeds?
Thats a good question. Ive never [unclear] [laughs]
Im sure it has something to do with going into more direct emptiness
perception, you see. What we call the destroyer is called {parchin }, direct
perception of emptiness.
What is destroying those seeds, what is destroying mental habits at that point is
almost always the direct perception of emptiness. [students]
[unclear] [students] You must be in an extremely deep state of meditation which
means if you never allow yourself during the healthy middle age or youth to get
into a deep state of meditation you can never perceive emptiness.
Its
impossible.
[student]
Doesnt mean that. What I mean is that you have to be in very good physical
condition and you have to be {}. {} means you have to be very, very agile in
your meditation.
You have to be like someone whos jogging every day. Thats a prerequisite. If
your body, if everything is not [unclear], you know, from doing it every day for
a long time, forget seeing emptiness directly. You cannot.
And you cannot move through these paths.
Each moving up in the path occurs during a state of deep meditation. [student] In
fact, when you perceive emptiness directly, youre in another realm. Youre in
the form realm. Your mind is in the form realm. Youre not even in this realm.
[students]
How much would it take to lift two hundred pounds? I mean it takes, I dont
know. Id say you probably need to give it forty-five minutes or an hour a day
minimum.
[student] But Id say for a normal person [unclear] [students] [laughter]
But see before you go into that meditation what must you have?
Deep intellectual understanding and you cannot get that without many hours of
class. Period. [student]
{..} means, {}[unclear]
Okay, have a snack and well come back and do an easier one.
[student] Basically they are varying degrees of the perfection of the perfections,
six plus four.
[student] There are four on top of the six in another system.

[laughter] [laughs] Im not going to teach you that.

So basically during the first bodhi, basically, this is just a question. You will study
it in the Madhyamikavatara which well be studying a year from now.
But basically, the first bodhisattva level is the period when youre learning to
practice generosity but now you understand it correctly. So instead of giving
something, its one thing to give something, to John a hundred dollars with
ignorance and its a wholly another thing if I give it to you with knowledge, you
know.
Then Im, that is an act of, thats an act of enlightenment. Thats going to get me
enlightenment. Every other act of giving that I did was a cause for samsara, was
a cause for my own suffering. [student] First bhumi. The first bhumi is the
perfection of the perfection of giving. [laughs]
The second bhumi?
Yeah. Morality. And then like that. Its called {}. Its getting very special now
because of course youve had it before. [student]
[unclear] [student]
You just [unclear] for something we will study a year or two from now. You
dont, but I couldnt have explained it. I could have explained it [unclear] [laughs]
but [unclear] [student] [laughter] [students]
The first one is called {gyalpa}. Anyone know what that one is? King. [students]
Thats how were dividing bodhichitta.
What was the first division we had? Division into four by what? [students] By
level, spiritual levels. By level of what, mainly?
Emptiness.
Now were doing it, now were dividing bodhichitta into three kinds. How? By
way you think. By what kind of thought comes up in your mind as you feel
bodhichitta?
In the first one is called Kings wish, kings wish for enlightenment.
Why is it called kings wish for enlightenment?
He says, {..}, first I will achieve enlightenment and then I will lead all other
beings to full enlightenment. Thats called kings wish.
First Ill achieve it and then Ill lead all other beings. Thats one way of thinking.
[student] Yeah, e stands for enlightenment. [student] Like, similar to. Because
the king in the tradition in India is always standing, is walking in front of
[unclear] [cut]
In front of the big, his subjects. He always walks in front. Hes going to get
across the finish line first and then hell turn around and help other people.
The second one, {dzebu}. {dzebu} means the, what do you call it? {dze} means a
keeper of any kind of animal. {lukdze} is a shepherd, {badze} is a cowherd, you
know, {tadze} is a horse herder. What do you want to call it? A {budze} is a

babysitter. [laughter] {dze} means, like a {dze}is a person who is I charge of

those things, you know.
Lets call that shepherd. Hows that. But now you know what it really means.
How do you spell shepherd? [student]
Oh, {lukdze} means a sheep herder, shepherd. So when we add the {dze} it
means person who is in charge of watching over those things. So {bu dze} is a
babysitter.
Shepherd-like means, shepherd-like means the shepherd goes behind them. If
youve ever been in a traffic jam in India when theres about a thousand sheep
crossing the road, [laughs] you know.
The guys stand behind and beat them and throw rocks. And dogs bark. Theyre
pushing the beings in front of them so it says here, {}, first I will make sure that
other people reach enlightenment, total Buddhahood, and then {} Ill achieve it.
[student]
Its a good question.
Its not discussed in this text directly but in my
understanding of it thats always the first [cut]
[end side A]
[side B]
[student]
Okay, what do you guess {nyempa} is? Whats the only other possibility?
[student]
No, this one went, yeah, goes together. And {nyenpa} is a, what do you call that
thing? A ferryman. And in Tibet thats very important. Why?
Theres no bridges and theres a lot of rivers. [laughs] I mean, you get to the side
of the Hudson River and you gonna wait for a yak skin round thing that can
hold, like, three horses, you know. And everyone gets in and the guy takes you
across. Thats the bridge. Theres no bridges and theres water everywhere. I
mean, all the [unclear] come out of Tibet.
And hes hoping that, let me read it to you directly, {}. I and all other sentient
beings may we reach Buddhahood at the same time, simultaneously. Okay,
weve got five minutes and then I can finish on time. Youre alright, everybody
happy? [student]
Yeah. Yeah. [students] Those would probably fit [unclear]. They would not be
contradictory. [students]
It doesnt say anything about that. In my understanding of it as I say its really
the first one. Its really you must achieve it first. Thats {}
[student]
Yeah.
I think, I think theres a very holy way of interpreting that. I dont know, I
mean, maybe having something to do with the secret teachings. Ill leave it at

that.
Okay [unclear] [students] [laughter] better to do the hard ones first. [student]
In India in the clothes shop they show you the lousy ones first, they pull out the
[unclear]
This is by basic nature. [student] Theres only two. Get used to it. [cut]
[student]
By the bodhichittas basic nature.
And Im going to give you the technical definition which might come in handy.
[cut] [unclear] Its the wish for enlightenment [student] this by the way, okay,
were going to talk about it.
Theres two elements here. One is taking a vow and one is actually engaging in
bodhisattva deeds, okay. And taking a vow if we had time it would be very
nice. The whole ceremony and part of the ceremony is discussed by Kedrup
Tenpa Dargye. He explains whats going on and what youre supposed to think
and whats supposed to be in the room and whos supposed to sit where. And
the whole thing is very beautiful
But basically this refers to the formal taking of the vow before your lama. You
go to him. He prepares everything in the room. He gets everything ready. You
say certain things. He says certain things and you vow, swear to become a
Buddha for all beings.
Thats a formal ceremony that you go through, okay. [student]
Yeah. These are, the top two sets of vows are independent of the bottom set of
vows which is freedom vows. These are lifetime vows of morality, some of
them are, vows of morality of body and speech incidentally. Not even of mind.
A monks vows are all mental, Im sorry, physical and verbal. And then these
are mostly mental actually, okay.
The bodhisattva and tantric vows are more mental, more difficult to keep. So
{drupay semkye} it does depend on, to have this which is called the wish of
engagement, this {drupa} means to engage, to actually get into something. One
of the scriptures says, {.. semkye} is thinking about taking a trip. {drupay
semkye} is when your foot moves, okay. [laughs]
It depends on taking a vow and it depends on actually engaging in bodhisattva
deeds. And then Khedrup Tenpa Dargye says, what do I mean, what does the
books mean when they say, what do they mean when they say actually
engaging in bodhisattva deeds? He says, for example, in the action of giving
something to someone, which is the first perfection, you know, as you give it to
them you are thinking I, you know, I want to become a Buddha. By this action
my I become a Buddha to really help. It must be under that influence. And even
thinking directly at that moment, you know, as you give something to
somebody, you know, Im giving this so I can become a Buddha in the future

and really help this person as the Buddha did when he gave his body to the tiger.
Or when you keep your morality, Ill not lie today. And the reason Im not lying
is I want to become a Buddha so I can really help people. Like that.
Or patience. Im not going to get angry at him because Id like to become a
Buddha and be able to help people out.
[student]
Thats what they call it, yeah. Some people call it, there are many translations of
this. Some people say aspiring. Some people call this the wish. I like wish for
this because its defined as the wish. I call this the prayer, the prayer for
bodhichitta. Thats where youre just praying I wish, {monpa} means pray.
{monlam} festival is that same word. Its the great prayer festival. Its where
youre, you know, I hope I can become like Buddha to help people.
Youre sitting in your room. You havent taken any vow yet. Youre not in the
action of giving or keeping your morality or not getting angry with the
conscious intention of becoming a Buddha to help other people. That does not
depend on that. {drupay semkye} does depend on that. So the second, this is
really the most important division of the bodhichittas.
This is the classical one that you see.
[student]
It does depend on these two elements. He has taken a vow and when he does
his perfections, when he gives something to somebody, when he catches himself
getting angry its not that hes thinking oh I shouldnt get angry. Its a bad thing.
Hes not even thinking I shouldnt get angry it will make me see this angry man
again. Hes thinking Im not going to get angry because then I wont be able to
become a buddha to help other people.
[student]
Yeah and thats {monpa}. But when youre actually going out and, you know,
when, yeah, you can start tonight. [student] Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can have, no
but if you take the vow. [student]
What is a vow? I mean Ill give you just a few and then well stop. {..}
Those are the root vows, okay. {dak ..}, to talk good about yourself and say bad
things about other people. First bodhisattva vow, {}.
{} not to provide Dharma or money or whatever else to some one who needs
it if you can. {} not to accept criticism well. [student] [laughs] Those are the
vows, you vow not to do those things.
{} is to tell people, oh come on this Mahayana stuff is difficult, you know, can
never [unclear] {..} To in any way misuse the funds of a Dharma organisation,
you know. {}, to say that Hinayana is worthless is breaking your bodhisattva
vows. And things like that. I mean those are very [student]
Yes and you have to realise that. Its an important point. When you vow to

something, when you swear to something, something changes in you.

Everything you do then, if you dont lie before you take a vow and if you dont
lie after you take a vow, the second action is infinitely more powerful. And you
have to know that. You have to realise that. The vows have this function. Big
difference. There is a big difference and you have to be aware of that. [student]
And if you break them [laughs] its worse. You know, if you lie, you know
before you took a vow not to lie and then you lie after taking a vow, its much
more serious.
[student]
To, yeah, yeah. And then maybe if we do well we could arrange some
ceremony where we all, it would be nice, I think it would be nice if we asked
Rinpoche to give us the vows again. Why not, you know.
Id like that. Itd be nice. [student] Yeah, or else we go there.
He has offered by the way to come here in the spring and teach {ganden
hlagyama} which is the subject of this thangka but we wont get into that.
Okay. [student] Oh, which leads me to another point. [laughs] theres also a
division into twenty something, {} Its from the Abhisamayalamkara.
Theres also a division into two others: ultimate bodhichitta and apparent
bodhichitta. Im not going to [student] yeah. So Ive given you four, three and
now two.
Ive given you the division into four. [laughter] Ive given you a division into
three. Ive given you the division into four by what?
By spiritual level.
Ive given you a division into four different kinds of bodhichitta by levels. That
was the first thing we talked about before our break.
The I gave you a division into three by how youre thinking when you get it.
And now I gave you a division into two by the very essence of that state. One is
that you thinking, the other is where youre thinking while you do it.
Yeah. [student] No, I didnt say, I didnt touch the fourth kind of way of dividing
it. And Im not going to. [student] But if youre interested Ill tell you. And its
not on your homework and its not on your quiz.
But there is a division into two. One is called ultimate and one is called apparent,
okay. Ultimate means the direct perception of emptiness.
I mean, you can divide, this is a new way of dividing, which youre not required
to know. Im just mentioning it for people who read the material. [student] It is
a fourth division. [student]
And the ultimate refers to the perception of emptiness. [student] Yeah, nothing
to do with bodhichitta. Nothing to do with the wish for others blah, blah, blah.
Its a direct perception of emptiness. [student]
Yeah. [student] What we
normally think of it as. [student] Yeah, become a Buddha to help others. But

Im not, you dont have to know that. I didnt talk about it, you know. Its in
the book. Its just for people who are reading the material and wondered what it
was.
[student]
By the way, we have it in our {dakye, .}
[student] {.} No, its in the {dakye}
No, but I mean ultimate bodhichitta is mentioned in the {dakye}.
[student]
Yeah, yeah, thats true. [student]
When youre in a debate and your partner is a picky guy you always mention it.
[student]
I wont mark anyone down for [unclear] [students]
Heres your homework. I apologise I did it on the, I had to do a few things for
my lama. I couldnt do it on the other printer. Thats life. [student]
And I see you on [students] Thursday. [ thanksgiving announcement]
[students]
[prayer: short mandala] [prayer: dedication]

931118-1.aaa
Course II: Buddhist Refuge
Class Five: Definition of Nirvana
11/18/93
transcribed by: Amara Goodman
Proofread May 2003

Its a really good opportunity for me to go back to the beginning. Oh, kinda...
[student: Thank you]
The thing that's gonna get a class okay [laughs]. All right, Tom made a very nice
chart of the whole paths and levels and all that, and I'm trying to...before I
spread it I want to make sure it's correct so I'm holding it and I'm trying to
correct a few things. I said that the two thoughts of bodhichitta have to alternate
because one mind can't hold two thoughts at the same time.
[student: You already told us that.]
Okay, cause it was on the homework a lot, and it's not your fault, I mean I didn't
take off for that...
[student: We don't mind.]
Because I said that they have to alternate, if, but they don't have to alternate
because they are...
[student: Complementary.]
Complimentary. They can focus on the same object at the same time.
[student: So you said in the class that they somehow, mysteriously didnt
alternate, remember?]
Well, now I I want to say clearly that they don't, they dont alternate, they're
complimentary they occur at the same time. And there is a debate in the books,
which is what I was dimly remembering, which is that the two sense

consciousness cant, they have to alternate. You can't... if if the object and if the
two thoughts are not complementary they do have to alternate, but not these
two thoughts, they can be in the mind at the same time. And that's kinda a good
reason for bodhichitta to be in the main mind then, because you have to be
talking about the main mind that can hold those two at the same time. So that
makes some sense. And then what was the other one? Some people got, a lot of
people got one thing, not wrong, but the main reason why you have to say,
belonging to the greater way, is to is is to block that sugar cane
bodhichitta, could be, could be bodhi...Mahayana bodhichitta. And that... not not
that there are two other lower Hinayana wishes for enlightenment that it could
be that's not the main reason that they do. So what was the other one? Oh, {dron
doki} which I still wasn't satisfied with and I, I couldn't explain it well, and thats
why no one got it very well. When it says "under it's own power of it's own
accord" so I asked my Lama again, I'm taking him to the doctor all the time now
a days, so it's really useful. I try to pick one that's far away [laughs][laughter] I
get talk to him in the car and...
[student: And he goes huh, right?]
No, well he tries to get away from me
[student: Huh?]
But he's in, stuck in the car you know? [laughter]
[student: And [unclear] those questions coming and he goes like this, huh?]
[student: He always goes to sleep..]
He hate questions. But anyway... the difference between main mind and a
mental function. And and when does one act of its own accord and when does it
act not of its own accord. So I said, could you give me an example of something
acting of its own accord and something not acting of its own accord and he gave
me what I, now I like the answer and I thought this answer and the last one he
gave me I liked a lot. He says; for example if you think of an object and your
concentrating on the main object and not on its, not on any quality of the object,
not on any paticular feature of the object what what should that state of mind
be? Mind or the mental function? Just the main awareness of an object.
[student: Main mind?]

That's main mind. And then mental function is: I'm jealous about this object, I'm
angry about this object, I want this object, I want to get away form this object.
Those are particular states of mind. When main mind moves to an object all,
there are, according to which school your are in, there are a certain number of
mental functions that have to move with it. For example: you can't have
awareness without feeling, without sensation, it's impossible. Sensation is always
going on, feeling is always going on, your mind is like a raw nerve its always
open. Sometimes you are feeling neutral feeling. And most people mistake that
for no feeling at all, but you are, you, your capacity for feeling is always open,
its always there. That's why it's so easy to shift to good feeling, bad feeling
[laughs], you know, you, one moment you're high, the next moment you're
down. Feeling is always coming along with main, whenever there is main mind
it doesn't matter if it is an ameoba or a human or a Buddha, when you have main
mind you have a sensation of feeling going on at the same time. So what he said
was when the...
[student: It's not raw consciousness?]
No it's not, its a mental function, okay. It's its interested in the goodness or
badness or neutrality of the object
[student: Main mind?]
Should I feel...No the feeling, the capacity of feeling is thinking should I hate this
thing, should I like this thing, should I feel neutral about this thing and the main
mind is just aware of the object.
[student: You alread, you always have feeling?]

[student: Including the Buddha?]

Sometimes feeling is neutral, but you always have one of those three feelings.
Good feeling, bad feeling or neutral feeling.
[student: Even when you're out?]
Yeah, yeah and you have a very subtle kind of consciousness even when you are
dreaming, you're having some kind of emotion about the dream, that you like it,

you don't like it, or you're neutral about, but the neutrality is a feeling too.
[student: So the main mind and the mental function go together then?]
Right, theyre always linked, in five respects. And I didn't go through that with
you, and I will some other time. Like they're always occuring at the same time,
theyre always focused at the same object, theyre always made of the same
stuff, theyre always relying on the same sent(?), on the same faculty and some
there's another one [laughs]. There are five ways in which they are equivalent,
but what what he said which was very good is when main mind is focusing at
the object on on the general object, the the {sem} the main mind is of its own
accord. and the {sem chung} the mental function like feeling is being dragged
along.
[student: It's the act of occupying, the act of just of fixing focus?]
Yeah, the act of just being aware of something, who's, whos in charge is main
mind. Who's being dragged along...
[student: This is an essence of practice?]
Like a kid after it' mother.
[student: So, primary perception of the object.]
Yeah, the just the basic awareness of it all without thinking this is good, this is
bad, I li... this is red, this is high. So who's in charge right then is main mind and
and feeling is getting dragged along, so main mind is acting of its own accord.
He's in charge. And then feeling is acting in a dependence on main mind. Feeling
was dragged along not independently not of his own accord, hes dependent on
mind. So when the object is being perceived by main mind and all those little
mental functions who we say are in the .. are linked with main mind are dragged
along without any choice of their own. Now imagine that opposite case; you go
for refuge to an object, you are concentrating on the benefits of of the Buddha,
the good qualities of the Buddha, this is a mental function. Youre not just aware
of the Buddha, you're concentrating on different ways in which he can help you
and you're hoping. That, then a mental function is in charge and the main mind
its there you, your focusing on Buddha in general but not mainly. The main
thing in your mind, the main guy who has the power at that time is not main
mind its, its the hope. The hope is in charge. The hope is, mani...we call we call

manifest in your in your consciousness at that

at moment. The hope is standing out in front and main mind is just getting
dragged along by the by the hope so in that case hope is acting of its own accord.
In that case the little mental function is in charge an it's pulling mommy.
[student: But that's, but refuge is the only situation which will..]
No, no many others.
[student: Oh, okay.]
Yeah, many other mental functions are described as acting of their own accord. It
must mean something like the emotion is so strong and its focused so much on
a particular characteristic of the object that the little mental function is in charge
and main mind being lead by the .. mommy is being lead the child in this case.
The hope is is strong and the hope is focused on a on a particular features of the
object and the awareness of the object is not in the front. He's hes there 'cause
he has to come, otherwise he wouldn't be able to focus on anything. But he's not
the main player. The main player is the mental function, in that case. So that's
what "of it's own accord" means, and I like that explanation. I've never heard that
clearly before but anyway that clears up the last part of the definition of
bodhichitta we had. Yeah.
[student: Sometimes they say when you meditate so you know, like you do
during {shamata}, you concentrate on an image, say an image of the Buddha,
because they talk about these two, like the consciousness rests on..]
That's called {Den}, yeah.
[student: Something..]
Yeah..
[student: So you know so like once if your eyes are looking at it, your
consciousness will be directed toward, is that the same thing?]
No.
[student: Or is that something different?]

Mind and mental function in this case maybe belief in that object, faith in that
object, an awareness of that object, are both resting on your eye consciousness,
on you eye power. On the physical thing inside you eye. On the nerve, the optic
nerve. And that's what that means. That's thats what that refers to in that
case, yeah.
[student: So are you saying...]
Oh and by the way and {digenzin} which means samadhi, the ability to
concentrate is one of the mental functions that accompanies all states of mind. It
not the big {digenzin] that we're talking about. It's not the samadhi about
concentrating on a Buddha, not not the samadhi that it means in meditation but
the samadhi which is a mental function. Every being has that. Every being has
the ability and is concentrating on an object, even if its only for a fleeting
moment of time [laughs]. Every state of mind has some ability to concentrate.
So every state of mind has samadhi, but it's not the samadhi that we talk about,
it's a mental function called samadhi. Yeah.
[student: So are you saying then that which ever the feelings or the main mind,
which ever has the most strength or intention..]
Right, right.
[student: ...is the one that's acting of it's own accord?]
Right, right, right and I like that. That makes sense to me now. So it can kind of
switch back and forth you know, if you're having a strong emotion like hope
that this objects' influence can save you from hell [laughs] then your main
awareness of the object is taking the back seat and your hope is taking the front
seat.
[student: So even if the main mind has to conceive the object before you can
hope in it, the main mind would not...]
Maybe at the moment of conceiving it, the main mind is in charge.
[student: Yeah, that's right.]
And then at the moment of taking refuge, you know at the next moment when
youre taking refuge in that object, first youre focusing on that object and then

you start to feel this hope. It shifts from main mind being in charge to hope
being in charge. I like that explanation, it no, it's a nice explanation. Okay.
[student: So the hope probably perceives the object anyway. I mean once...]
[laughs]
[student...hope refuge..]
Ah! [laughs] {[unclear]} [laughter]. All right we're going to talk about Nirvana
today [laughs], all right. We finished refuge, going for refuge and we finished
bodhichitta again were on we're still in the chapter, the first chapter of eight
chapters. We will take us about two years to get out of the first chapter, that's the
main thing we study in the monastery. Yeah.
[student: Can I ask on question about last week?]
Yeah okay.
[student: You know about the four divisions of the ..]
{Chirun}
[student:...Of the spiritual levels..]
Right.
[student: ...Bodhichitta. I, I'm having a hard time of sort of conceiving of how
each one is considered bodhichitta.. we're talking about enlightenment here I
guess, aren't we? We're not really talking about bodhichitta, we're talking..]
No we are.
[student: We're talking about four divisions, emptiness in a way, divisions of...]
It's really just love, love with four different levels of understanding of who it's
loving. And that the love that we have now for anybody is a very very ignorant
about it's object.
[student: So I, okay so it's, we're talking about four levels of understanding of the

same concept.]
Right.
[student: We're not dividing the concept...]
Right right
[student: Were dividing the levels of understanding.]
It's still those two wishes: still wants Buddhahood and it still wants to help
everybody, but it's understanding everybody in different ways now.
[student: Not just everybody, everything.]
Yeah. Starting with a, well it's emphasis is on the object of sentient beings. It's
called {ming me nynge je}, {ming me tzay way terchen Chenrezig}. What's that?
[student: Something about the Avalokiteshvara.]
{Mig may tzay way terchen Chenrezig}. Yeah. It's that very important prayer to
Tsong Kapa that we we pray every time we do that. {Tzay tsung},{ming me tzay
way terchen chenrezig tzay tsung}. {Ming may tzay wa}: Love that doesn't see
anything and that means he has developed that love that perceives..
[student: Picturing no-self..]
...it it see that those beings are empty at the same time that it has a true love for
those beings that a mother has for her only child.
[student: So the time that you can get to level five then you have no more
obstructions, so then ...]
Path five please [laughs].
[laughter].

This is what gave you guys a headache last time

[student: You have to also..]

By the way I I learned, and then the second time I taught it was much better
[laughs] [laughter].

[student: Piece of cake for these few.]

[student: You also have ..] [laughter]
When you get to path five..
[student: No the the emptiness of inherent existence of all phenomena...
Right.
[student: And not just persons.
Right, right that's true that's true.
[student: Or is that just...]
No that's, thats absolutely true. Yeah in all schools, even [laughs].
[student: So last week you said these were the levels of understanding
emptiness, now you say...
Well theyre...
[student: They're levels of understanding bodhicitta.]
Sure, they're all, we call {sursak} when you have a debate you say {semesursak}.
Okay? {Durga bay}.
[student: Mind is...has...]
I, I'm starting, I'm stepping from the point of, Im I'm talking tonight about
bodhichitta. And everything I say about emptiness refers to bodhicitta. When
you have a debate you say okay look I don't have to keep repeating {tete sema}
Okay? You understand? You understand? The guy says, Yeah, yeah I
understand." Okay, everyone understand? I'm talking about {tete seme}. Yeah,
yeah, okay. Then you start debating emptiness, but it's all from the point of view
of bodhicitta.
[student: It's a good idea to do that on your homework or tests first.]

Or the teacher.
[student: And say overall, by the way everything [laughter] on here is obviously
about enlightenment for the sake of all beings.]
Very good. Yes.
[student: Dat,dat data.]
Of course you, because are a {sini taba}, you're not just a regular old thinker.
You're an analytical thinker. Okay. Say: {Nun Drup} [repeat], {malupa} [repeat],
{pang bay}[repeat], {solsur} [repeat], {tango} [repeat], {nangdeke} [repeat],{sine}
[repeat],{nangdeke} [repeat], {sine} [repeat]. We'll break down {nangde}, okay.
This is the definition of..
[student: What are we saying?]
Nirvana.
[student: Okay.]
Okay. This whole thing is a definition of nirvana. I mean it's really nice to know
this. I felt so good when I studied this. I said, you know everybody's got their
own idea of what nirvana is, you know. It's a restaurant up on...[laughter] time
square okay, its a perfume...[laughs]. Yeah, yeah
[student: It's a new perfume isn't it?]
Yeah, yeah, its a perfume [laughter]. It's a band right?
[student: Its a band...]
[student: The perfume of samsara.] [laughter]
[student: When you're sick of that perfume then...]
[student: Tell 'em to come out with nirvana.
{Nung}, {nung} is short for {nung eng le}. This whole thing is short for {nye ne le

de ba}
[student: Mike, what's the first letter of that last line of Tibetan? Is it a m...]
{Myata nya}
[student: {Myata}?]
{Nya}, {myata nya}. You don't see it very often.
[student: No you don't and its...]
It's all a little funky.
[student: Yeah a little funky]
[laughs] The the Sanskrit word is nirvana. {Nger} come from a Sanskrit word
{nyi}, which means out and {ven} came into English as, in the word
vent,ventilation, wind. Okay, to blow. {Ven} means to blow, so {nger ven}
means to blow out, like a candle, to blow out a candle. Not like to blow on a
exam or a quiz [laughs].
[student: {Ner} means...]
{Ner} means out and {ven} means to blow. And and it came into Greek and
Latin and English as...
[student: Vent.]
As wind, wind and vent, ventilation, okay. I think even fan comes from {ven}.
So nirvana... The Tibetans didn't translate it, by the way, that gives you better
idea when youre debating the definition of nirvana then the Tibetan translation
or maybe not. Anyway, in the early, early years of Tibetan Buddhism they were
into translating things by some beautiful word that described all its qualities,
rather than it, then calling it blow out they would call it {Nangen depa}. They did
the same with a number of other things, like the word for Jewel in Sanskrit, in
Tibetan, in Sank...it's {ratna}, which means Jewel, the Three Jewels of Refuge, but
in Tibetan they they put {konchok}, which means "rare and supreme". You see
they didn't translate it the word for Jewel. This is called the early period of
translation in Tibet, and a, some of those translations were kept in later years

because they were so, maybe they were so prevalent by that time they couldn't
change them, and also they're very beautiful. So {Nang yen}, {nang yen} means
"grief". It's very specific word, grief. It's what you do, even in now a days, in
Tibetan we say: {Nang yen se dok}, "his mother died and he's grieving". Okay.
{Alma trag nang yen se drok}: "he's grieving his mother who died". So that's the
only meaning it has in Tibetan. {Le} means from or beyond, in this case it means
beyond. And {de} means gone beyond, past, gone beyond suff...gone beyond
grief.
[student: {De} itself means gone beyond?]
Yeah, {De}, {depa}, means gone beyond.
[student: What does {le} mean again?]
Beyond, gone, {de} means...
[student: {Le}.]
...Transcended and {le} means beyond.
[student: Oh.]
Let's see, gone up above, gone out from...
[student: And {pa}?]
It's just part of a verb, like to to go, the to in to go, to beyond, to go. {Pa} is to go
beyond grief and that's the Tibetan word for nirvana.
[student: That's nice.]
Yeah it's a nice word. {Sing me} means "definition", you know that now, I think.
Okay and {ke} means "of", definition of nirvana. I I was so confused, you know,
about what nirvana was, you know, for may years and and I was very happy to
see this. It's, it means this {Nung drup}. Okay. {Nun}, {Nun}, stands for {Ngon
mon}. What's that Tom?
[student, Tom: {Cle she}.]

Yeah, {Cle she}, meaning?

[student, Tom: The mental defil...defilements...]
I I like mental affliction, and I'll tell you why; the Sanskrit word is {cle sha}, it
comes from a root root {clish} and {clish} means to bug somebody, to bother
somebody, to pick at somebody, okay [laughs]. The {ngomons} have that
function, in fact their definition is {[unclear]}. They ruin your peace of mind okay.
Any thought that ruins your peace of mind is a {ngomon}. I I sometimes, to
make it easy I call it a bad thought. I think mental affliction is a good word too,
'cause afflict ,means to, you know, bother somebody, okay, hurts you, picks on
you, picks at you [laughs]. As you know, if you get angry at work, or if you
have desire for some person, or you know you can't rest, it's always some
kinda...bother. Okay. {Drup} {drup}, means "an obstacle". It comes from the
word that means shadow, because it blocks the way, it blocks you from seeing
something, or achieving something. So {Nung drup} is one word, it's a technical
word. {Nung drup} means an a a "mental affliction obstacle," okay, a bad thought
obstacle, an obstacle which is, a bad thought obstacle okay. Now, then you get
in this debate, in the monastery, you know, are all {nung drup}s {ngomon}s?
Okay. I'll ask Kila, to be a bad thought obstacle, do you have to be a bad
thought?
Are are all bad thought obstacle bad thoughts, or or is there
something else in in the obstacle that's not the bad thought itself. Are those two
sets equivalent? Can you think of anything that would block you, by the way
main function of a {nung drup}, the obstacle, what does it keep you from? What
does it block you from?
[student: Good thoughts.]
No. Mainly nirvana. It's defined as an obstacle that blocks you mainly from
nirvana.
[student: Is ignorance a {clo she}?]
There's a bitter debates about it. Okay, very difficult debates. Even if, if its if its...
[student: I thought ignorance was considered the root affliction?]
Oh, absol...it's a root of all evil, but there are big debates about, for example, is it
a, is it a non-virtue and and it's a, pretty much a, not. It's neutral, it's very weird.
It takes a lot of thinking about that. But most it it is listed among the mental

afflictions, but you'll get into that.

different schools.

Its one of the big difference between the

[student: 'Cause I I was thinking that it could be an obstacle that was not a {clo
she}.]
Oh, say it again? Ignorance...
[student:that could be an obstacle...]
Oh yeah, that could be, yeah. It is in one way, yeah, but I I,Rinpoche...
[student: So what is the answer?] [laughter]
What we call {bak cha}. {Bak cha} is a very important idea, okay, the word is
kinda cute. {Bak cha}, it's like bok choy, you know. [laughter] What's {bak cha}
though, you know?
[student: Seeds?]
Yeah. Mental seeds.
[student: Karmic seeds.]
It literally means "a mental stain", a stain on your consciousness, okay. And
those are, when you talk about {nung drup}s, which are the obstacles of the
mental afflictions, the mental affliction obstacles, it can be a mental affliction or it
can be the {bak cha} for a mental affliction...
[student: From a mental affliction?]
For a mental affliction, meaning...
[student: Wait a minute, isn't there a difference between seed and the mental
stain?]
Yeah, there is...
[student: Karmic seeds are...]

Yeah...
[student: So what's the better word to use?]
Well, I'll describe it to you, and you tell me, okay. It's the, it's the potential for it
in your mind, in your mind stream.
[student: What the it, is?]
It, {bak cha}...
[student: [unclear]]
The seed, what I'm calling seed or stain is the potential for you to get angry.
[student: That's better than...]
It's something within you, within your mind, which is not even mental, as a
matter fact, it's a, it stays, in your mind and as, as for so long as you posses it...
[student: It's the potential?]
Its, you, you can still get angry. It's what triggers anger in your mind.
[student: Are you saying...]
It's what you carry around in your mental stream, that when someone yells at
you it it it produces the {nge mo}.
[student: What the word for karma? What do they use when they talk about
karmic seeds? What's...]
Similar, similar. The difference, the difference depends on what school your in.
[laughs] You know, That's, thats one of the main questions of the mind only
school.
[student: ] Are you distinguishing between the karmic propensity to experience
something thats already there, a seed verses the propensity to cause more
seeds. Is that the difference?

What I'm talking about now is the the seed for anger, which is within you, and
whether or not you get angry normally depends on the situation, the
environment that you're in. There, they make a distinction, for example: monks.
They stay in the middle of the monastery, they never see a lady, okay. Did they
get rid of the {bak cha} of desire? No. Do they have desire in their minds
presently, mainfestly? No. But if they go outside, if they don't, if they go outside
[unclear] monastery and they go to the town and they see some nice lady then
they can get desire 'cause they have the {bakcha}, they still have the seed in their
minds. They don't have desire in their minds while in the monastery, because
there nothing, there's nothing to to cause it, but but as long as they still have the
seed, then when they, all the... What do you call it?
[student: The, call 'em...]
Like the...
[student: Contributing...
Factors...
[student: Factors.]
...are around. When the, basically, when youre, theyre in a different
environment where there is an object...
[student: Secondary causes.]
Cause which could trigger that seed and make it become desire, that, then they
still aren't arhants, for example, that's one example. Okay, so the mental
affliction desire or anger, what's the stuff it's made of? We we talk about stuff in
Buddhism. Mental stuff, physical stuff, or stuff which is neither. Okay. [laughs]
What is it?
[student: Mental.]
It's mental stuff. Okay, it made of mind. Okay, what's the {bak cha} made of?
It's not mind, it's it's some kind of... potential. It's some kind of energy. It's some
kind of force that stays in your heart, and when the, when all the conditions, is
what I was looking for, when all the conditions are ready, there's a nice lady
there, you had a bad night, you're tired, you know, whatever, and you see her

and then you get desire.

[student: So you're saying this is an energetic predisposition?]
It's, it's a potential.
[student: An energetic potential?]
It's a little bit of energy in your mind, it's not mental, it's some kind of seed, some
kind of power for that thing to happen in your heart.
[student: So what can we say, you know we had this conversation about what is
karma, you know, we say, you know, karma is not some kind of energetic
propensity, that you know, not some energetic stuff that's happening to you,
and yet now you're saying...]
Well...
[student: Energetic...]
I'm not, I never referred to karma, I'm not talking about karma...
[student: No the last series...]
Yeah, when a, basically karma is a {simba}. Karma is whenever the mind moves,
that's karma.
[student: Well...]
Now after you commit a karma which I dont exactly...
[student: Right, The karmic seeds, [unclear]]
The the seed for that is similar to a {bakchak}.
[student: It is an energetic thing.]
Yeah, it is a same kind of thing. It is a kind of energy that stays in your own
mind. So anyway, {nundrup} refers now you know, not only to the mental
affliction , but to their potentials in your own heart. So and those two things: the

bad thoughts that you actually have and then all those little potentials, then you
know that you from your past life, you have a stronger potential or a weaker
potential for each kind of bad thought. You know. I happen to have a more for
desire then for anger, it's very hard for someone to get me angry. If I see a nice
lady in the porto-potty Ill, I look, I'm not supposed to, okay. So I I have still that
{bakcha}. Okay, so that's tadifference you, each person has different strengths of
{bakchaks} for different things. {Nhundrup} means that both those bad thoughts
and the potentials for those bad thoughts block you from nirvana. They obscure
it, they stop you from reaching nirvana.
[student: How do you spell {bakchak}?]
[student: Yeah, how do you...
I'll spell it for you [laughs]. In Tibetan its, and {bak} sorta means a stain and
{chak} mean a growth, something a stain grow...grown in your, a a stain
developed. Kinda a nasty idea, you know. [laughter]
But you have 'em, they stain your consciousness, your mental stream. If you're
who you seem to be, ought to.
[student: Well, the yeah, you shouldn't make them sound like they're all
negative either.]
[student: Can you write out the word...]
They, they are pretty much negative, but there are some good ones too.
[student: What, what the words stain?]
You can call it mental seed.
[student: Oh, mental seed.]
Yeah, seed in your mind.
[student: Michael, getting an initiation is not a {bakchak}?]
It, I don't think they would refe...they could refer to it {bakchak} but not
normally. {Nunpa} or...

[student: Rinpoche, Rinpoche refers to it as seeds of {bakchak} [unclear].]

It's possible but its not normally. It's not, it's not the most frequent use of the
word. How's that?
[student: Don't they refer to it as the dharmic potential or something? How do
you...]
[student: So a good stain verses a bad stain?]
I like to call it a mental seed, huh?
[student: What a good thing would be a ment..would be what if that was as
antithesis of a {bakchak}?]
Oh, a {bakchak} can be good, but most of the time when you say {bakchak}
youre talking about the {bak cha} for a bad thing it's poss...it's quite possible to
have a good {bak cha} too.
[student: So you would just say mental seed or something?]
Yeah, a mental seed, yeah. It is neutral idea. It doesn't necessarily have to be a
bad thing, but most times it's it refers to a, it's a {pang cha} most of the time it's
something you want to remove form your mental stream.
[student: I have a question.]
Yeah.
[student: The the seed, the seed is happen just for in this life or it has be carried
over?]
The main cause for that seed is your habits of your past life. The reason you
have, the reason why some people get angry easily and some people don't get
angry easily now, is is the strength of the {bakchak}, and that depends on their
past life. If they got angry a lot in their past life, they have what we call a thick
{bakchak} for getting angry in this life, and they, it, anger will be triggered in
them quickly and then if you don't have...it it does refer to your habits of your
past life, mainly, mainly.

[student: Yeah, but to me, I feel like it just happen, like when you grown up, with
what kinda family you live.]
You can get some in in this life too, yeah and thats can be a good thing or a bad
thing. You know, you can get good {bak chak} in this life, in your early days and
even the secret teachings depend on that concept, in some ways. Okay.
{Nhundrup} means "bad thought obstacle" which now you know doesn't have to
be only a bad thought can be a seed. {Malupa}, {malupa} {malupar} means "in
their entirety," totally all of them, okay, {malupar}. Literally it means with
nothing left over, but you don't have to worry about that, okay. Entirely, in
their entirety okay. {Panga} means "eliminated," eliminated from your mental
stream, okay, removed from your mental stream, {panga}. {Solsur tango} is a
nasty word, very difficult, okay. You know {gompa} already. {Gok}, {gok} means
cessation, {gok} means cessation.
[student: Cessation or sensation?]
Cessation.
[student: Cessation?]
Yeah, and a, an and what does cessation mean? Who can give me a cessation?
Who, who, who, who?
[student: Cessation of anger.]
[student: Anger.] [laughter]
[student: [unclear]]
[student: Cessation of anger.]
Yeah, cessation normally implies permanent. Yeah, I mean in Buddhism you're
trying to get these cessations, almost the meaning of the word cessation, implies
a ceasing right? So the cessation of anger would be if you could no longer ever
get angry again. Okay. I'm trying to think of an important {sul sor tarmingipo},
but I just had...
[student: By the way, for the purpose of clarity, in terms of the class and
homework and test...]

Uhuh...
[student: Is, is it safe to agree that cessation means permanent or do we have to
keep in mind that some cessations aren't permanent?]
I can't, there are no cessation which aren't...
[student: Sorry, go on.]
Cessation, meaning the absence of something is always permanent. Negative
things are normally permanent, meaning unchanging. They're, the word, I I
don't wanna get into it, but the word permanent and impermanent in in
Buddhism, in English is is kind of not very clear, maybe it should have been
changing and unchanging. I I don't like them, the use of the words permanent
and impermanent, but I, that's another story. Okay, basically permanent means
if if it means that youll never revert from that state, yeah, most cessations are
like that.
[student: You've lost, youve lost the thing and you've lost the seeds for it right?]
[student: The definite maybe.]
When you debate, you have to say that, okay. What's that?
[student: You've lost the thing and you've lost the seeds for it.]
Right, right.
[student: Completely.]
Yeah, the cessation here refers to that. Okay, a cessation in which you have
eliminated from your mind, from your mental stream every one of the bad
thoughts and their seeds. Okay, now we gotta talk about {sol sur tsak}, which is
which is a difficult idea, okay.
[student: Can I ask a favor?]
Yeah.

[student: Could we have just a minute to write down what you've just said?]
Okay, go ahead [laughs].
[student: The cessation in which you have eliminated?
Yeah, roughly, okay. A cessation in which you have eliminated in their entirety
the mental affliction obstacles.
[student: So we're not talking about suppressing {bak chak}s or neutralizing
{bak chak}s, we're talking about eliminating them, right?]
Sure.
[student: Okay, getting ride of them.]
Yeah, okay. There are two kinds of {gompa}s, then two kinds of cessations, you
can divide sensations into two kinds. In the abhidharma, [unclear]{Du mang
ching yam ke namka dange drim po namkar drame kopo},and that's the source
of this idea. There are cessations you get from seeing emptiness directly, and
there are cessations you get before that.
[student: You said [unclear] You said with regards to the second wish of the
four...]
Okay.
[student: You said many times that having once perceived emptiness directly,
that you're never the same.]
Right.
[student: And you would even at one point, I believe said, that you will never
again think that things exist inherently.]
Right.
[student: But then you backed off, and said but you still could think that.]
No. In the first, in the first, before {tong-len}...

[student: No, that was the second you said that.]

No. Uh uh. Can not, can see it, can be forced to see it.
[student: But don't you still have the seeds to see it?]
Yeah, well absolutely. Yeah, you get ride of...
[student: I mean, but dont you still have the seeds to think it...]
But, you don't have the seeds to believe in what you're seeing anymore, never
again.
[student: This is it. The second level?]
After the path of seeing, yeah.
[student: Right, but you still have the seeds. That's what, {golong} isall about;
getting ride of those seeds.
[student: Seeds to what please?]
To seeing things a self existent.
[student: To see?]
To to being forced to see things as self existent even though you know youre
wrong. [laughs]
[student: Not to think, right?]
Yeah, yeah.
[student: Okay, thanks, that's good.]
[student: Not just the seed to seeing it, but [unclear] thinking it seed.]
[student: Not just perceiving it that way, but thinking that way.]

Di...when I say thinking and that's why I held his paper, what I mean is believing
it intellectually.
[student: Yeah.]
If someone asks you, "is it possible for a thing to exist em... self existently?" say
its possible up to the path of seeing. That your mind could be swayed by a bad
teacher, like some teacher teaches you something wrong about emptiness, it's
possible up to that moment that you you could be swayed by, by a, by a
convincing wrong argument about emptiness, that emptiness could be
something other than what it really is. After that moment it's impossible for you
to ever be swayed in that way because you saw it directly and it makes sense
that you would never be swayed again, and you won't be, by the way. [laughs]
It's a nice feeling you know, you can go to all these lectures and hear all this b.s.
and you just say, oh, thats wrong, you know that's silly, where'd you get that?
Show me the book. Obviously, you didn't see it...emptiness directly, now
can...where'd you get this idea about it, you know, show me the book. And
theyre all, well I figured it out. [laughter] You know. Just wrong. Flatly
wrong. And you'll know that at a certain point. You'll see, you'll see it. It's like
someone telling you something silly about, you know, hey a car works because
there three horses in the trunk, you know and you know, if you're an aborigine,
you might believe it, but once youve seen, you, you say, well that's silly, you
know, that's not like that.
[student: But one you get to the third level, for example, and you still have the
seeds to see things as though they were...]
Third kind, please.
[student: Third...]
[laughs] Or third path.
[student: Third path.]
Yeah, path of seeing. Path of seeing?
[student: Well, I don't know.]
Third kind of bodhichitta.

[student: The third kind of bodhichitta.]

Okay, okay, right.
[student: You still have the seeds.]
Right.
[student: To see...]
To be forced to see it that way.
[student: As though they were inherently existent.]
Yeah, but you, but it never happens manifestly in your mind.
[student: That corresponds, are we talking the same thing, one with respect to
seeing, one with respect to thinking?]
Yes.
[student: As between levels of...]
Yep, yeah. [laughs]
[student: Which...]
[laughter] Thats I mean, you guys taught me that, I'm just teaching you back.
All right [laughs]. [unclear] Yeah.
[student: You say you have two cessations...]
Yeah that's, can I get back on the subject? [laughs][laughter] There are two kinds
of cessations.
[student: So the the first cessation is when you see emptiness?]
I didn't start with, I didn't start them yet okay. I did start, but I didn't get very
far. The first kind of cessation is a cessation you get because you've seen

emptiness directly.
[student: That's the first kind?]
Yeah.
[student: Cessation?]
Yeah. Yeah.
[student: And and what is it exactly that cessates at that point?]
Depends on what, depends on what path you're on. But I'll, I don't want, don't
ask, let me go my own way for a little bit, okay [laughs]. I'll get to it...
[student: Okay.]
...But let me present it the way that the book does and the way I understand it.
All right, {sol sur tango}. When you perceive emptiness directly what happens
right after that? We've said it many times.
[student: You come out of it?]
As you're coming down from the direct perception.
[student: You you meet a Buddha...]
Youre still in the path of seeing...by the way
[student: Who tells you that you will become a Buddha yourself within sam...
He doesn't say it but you do see the {dharmakaya} root gurus, you reali...you
understand it, you have met the {dharmakaya} root guru, you understand that
you have met Buddhas. You believe that you have seen the Buddha and you
have seen the Buddha. It's not that he tells you, but you understand that you
have so many lives to go, that's...
[student: Yeah, I know.]
Do you have a problem with that?

[student: But last time be talked about that, you said no you see the Buddha face
to face directly and...]
I don't sa...didn't say that, you see his...
[student: I asked...]
..Form body.
[student: Well, let's not go there actually.]
Okay. You do see the Buddha, you see his, you see one of his bodies.
[student: He's amazing, glorious.]
Okay. Directly. Okay. Those, those ideas that you have as you come out of the
direct perception of emptiness, seeing ho...that you did have past lives, really
understanding that this life is suffering, seeing how many lives you have to go,
seeing a Buddha. Those perceptions are all related to the Four Nobel Truths,
that's why they're called the Four Nobel Truths. You see the truth of the four
nobel truths, it, that is the first time you see the real truth of the Four Nobel
Truths, during that time. You, you go throughout the Four Nobel Truths one by
one, and the word nobel is a bad translation for ayra. Why are they called ayra
truths?
[student: Because they come from direct perception of emptiness.]
Yeah, cause you just became an ayra. So they shouldn't have never called them
nobel, it's a bad translation.
[student: But that's a big distinction, isn't it?]
Not it's a, it's a, the word is...
[student: I mean its a huge distinction
[student: That changes the whole thing.}
Bad translation

[student: It certainly does.]

No, it has nothing to do with being ignoble or noble, okay, the word is {pakpa},
the word is ayra.
[student: Its amazing.]
It's just a bad translation.
[student Thats incredible.] [laughter]
Its ayra truths because you're an ayra now and you're seeing that they're true.
[student: [unclear] ayra.]
And you really do, you go through them one by one, ding ding ding ding. Oh
yeah, everything really is suffering, I really am doomed to die in this body, you
know, I, I really and, and it really did come from my bad thoughts and karma
and there is a way out, I see the end of my lives, I, I see that in seven lives I'll be
finished. And I see what a Buddha is. And I understand that these books are
holy and precious and and they are completely right, you know, every word in
them is completely correct, and and my god I better be careful with them from
now on, you know. This is, this is my savior, these words are my savior, and
you you have all these emotions, and these per...perceptions at that time, that's,
that's perceiving the Four Nobel Truths one by one, and that's what {sol sur}
means. {Sol sur} means "one by one". {Tak}, {tak} means "to analyze," or to see
them one by one. Okay, to go through them one by one.
[student: Okay, is both {sol sur} and {tak} is it both referring to the Four Nobel
Truths?]
{Sol sur} is referring to ind...one, {sol sur} means "one by one", meaning the Four
Noble Truths one by one.
[student: That's what referred to.]
And if you want to get {tenpo} it's the sixteen aspects of the Four Nobel Truths,
but I didn't want you get into that [laughter].

[student: It is definately [unclear]?]

Yeah, yeah. [laughter]
[student: Can, can you tell anything about Four Nobel Truth?]
Yeah, Four Noble Truths are this: I really am suffering, that's the first one, I
mean everything about me is suffering, period. That my job is going to screw
up sooner or later, any any person I love or care for is either going to die, or I 'm
gonna die, or we'll split up, there's no other choice, okay [laughs]. My own body
is doomed, you know, I'm gonna get cancer, aids, who cares? Its, I mean, it's
one of the [laughter] options, you know, there's no future. It's suffering. I will
be horizonal, I'm doomed to horizontality [laughter], you know, one day I'll be
laying there, lifeless, I, I...it's true, you know.
[student: Is it true?]
Being standing up [laughter] is just like temporary condition, I will go down.
Therell be a day when I will go down for the last time. I will. Its its...
[student: Or go up and down.]
Gravity will win, [laughter] you know. It will. There's no question, it's just a
matter of time or place, you know and it's suffering, there's no future in this.
And and aside from that, that's just the lousy phys[unclear] condition. My mind
is unhappy, it's a state of unhappiness, I can't make it happy, I'm always
dissatisfied, I always want more, I can't have peace, it's always bothering me
[laughter]. I get something then I want more, I don't get something, I get
angry, I create more. The mind itself is messed up, okay. I don't even see things
right. You know if my perception of reality is all wrong, where I think things are
coming from is totally wrong.
[student: But the question is, can you fool yourself [unclear] long enough to get it
right?]
[laughs] Well, we're trying. [laughter] No, but, but at, at the moment of, at the,
just after you come out of the direct perception of emptiness you start to have
these forethoughts. You do perceive these things directly...
[student: Did you, you have to perceive emptiness first?]

Can you see them while you perceiving emptiness?

[student: No you cant...]
You can not frame a thought while you're perceiving emptiness directly. You
can't think on life sucks, you know you can't. [laughter] You know, you can't,
you can't do that. It it's only as you come down, out of that perception, you're
still in the path of seeing by the way. Okay, it's the second half of the path of
seeing, path of seeing is not all meditational, direct deep meditation. It, it's also
the period after, it's the after glow and, and you are starting to go through the
Four Noble Truths. So you go through the; I am suffering, you believe it, and
then you see where it came from, you truly understand that it comes from your
own misperception of things. Okay, thats number two, the source. So
number...the Four Noble Truths is, number one is that everything really is
suffering, the second one is that everything that, that suffering has come my
own bad thoughts, we call origin or source. The source of the suffering. It's
coming from my own bad thoughts and my own bad deeds, okay. The third
one is cessation, meaning it will stop in the future, you see it's going to stop, you
know it's going to stop and you know how long it will take, okay. For example,
you can, you can really truly see that in seven lives, which will be very pleasant
lives obviously I'll be comfortable physically as comfortable as a person can be in
this life, and I'll have good teachers and I'll be studying these books and I'll be a
monk and blah blah blah. Seven more lives, and then...
[student: You always gonna be a monk?
[laughter]

Can't you be married?] [laughs]

We'll talk about it. By the way...well anyway well go over it. And then...
[student: [Its not like [unclear] can be married without suffering so...] [laughter]
And the last one is the way, the way to do it. The path...
[student: What was the third one...]
Number three, number three is...
[student: The only way out is...]

Cessation.
[student: Cessation.]
The end. And number four is the path. These are the Four Noble Truths.
[student: What is the path?]
Two results and two causes. They go, they go result/cause, result/cause,
suffering and its cause, the end and its cause. We, you're going to study that in
the perfection of wisdom. That's a big subject, and it comes later. It's called
{danchi}. We're not going to do [laughs] that tonight. Okay, so {sol sur tak} is a
kind of cessation that comes from seeing the Four Nobel Truths, the Four Ayra
Truths. Okay. When did that have to happen?
[student: Right after the first time one perceives emptiness.]
Directly.
[student: On the way back down out of that experience, of experiencing
emptiness.]
Yeah, so it has to happen on which path of the five?
[student: Seeing.]
Seeing, which is what number?
[student: Three.]
[student: Two.]
[student: Three.]
[student: Three.]
Number three.
[student: Three.]

First we had {kal ak}, {kal ak} [unclear] gerneral accumulaition [unclear] second
we had separate and then third we had seeing. So are there ,any cessationtions
that happen on the first two paths?
[student: [Its not a cessations to happen [unclear].]
Right, and Im gonna give you one, they have one here in the text which I like,
which I think is a good one to bring up [unclear]. Theres an idea called {ge tza
che}, {ge tza che}. {Ge tza che} means to cut your virtue roots, to cut the roots
of your virtue.
[student: Do you want to do that? Sounds like a bad thing to do.]
No, its a, its a very evil thing. Okay. Its a, theres isnt a big subject, its a long
subject, its, its like, how can you screw up to the ultimate, you know? [laughter]
Ho... how is it that you can actually...
[student: Royal.] [laughter]
You know, how is it that you can burn every little bit of goodness you have
inside you. Okay. And, and thats a whole subject its called {ge tza che}, its
called cutting the root of virtue. The main cause is {lokta}, the main cause is, is
really believing in wrong views. And the, and one of the worst wrong views is:
oh theres no such thing as karma, theres no such thing as morality, I can do
what I want as long as no one catches me, as long as no one ever finds out, I can
do what I want, you know, thats okay.
[student: There is no Santa Claus?]
Thats [laughs], thats a wrong view, that, that is a very horrible wrong view. Or
to say: theres no enlightenment, theres no way out of this suffering, might as
well shoot myself, thats a wro...very bad wrong view. Those wrong views
have the ability to cut your virtue roots, they have the ability to burn and to
waste whatever goodness you have inside you.
[student: Dont most people think those things most of the time?]
Yeah, to hold them strongly and with, and here he says with anger also, I mean
some kind of violent belief that these things are, you know Mao Tze Tong said
religion is... he said [laughs] some bad things there, but you know thats a,

thats probably a {ge tza chen}, that probably qualifies. Out of anger and out of
those wrong views, to, to burn those roots of virtue inside you it can not happen
after a certain step of the second path, okay. By, by having renunciation, by
understanding emptiness intellectually there comes a time in the second path
when you will never again think those things and burn that virtue. Its
impossible so you achieve a...?
[student: Cessation.]
Cessation for that. Thats a cessation, which does not depend on...
[student: Seeing emptiness.]
[student: Direct perception of emptiness?]
No, {sol sur}.
[student: What what about that?]
[student: The Four Noble Truths.]
Of seeing those Four Noble Truths one by on, because you just saw emptiness
directly.
[student: So the second path is the preparation?]
Yeah, okay yeah. So theres a point on the path of preparation where its
impossible for you ever again burn that virtue inside you,and by the way,
theres a point on the path of preparation where you no longer take a lower
birth.
[student: We can no longer...]
You achieve a cessation for a lower birth. You can never again go to a lower
birth. After youve reached that point you will never again go to a lower birth.
[student: So youll never ag..., youll get a cessation of that destroying great vast
amounts of virtue?]
We call it {ge}...

[student: [unclear] some but not like a big forest fire?]

Yeah, you cant, you cant destroy your, your fundamental
you.

goodness within

[student: Like root...]

Except for those two, yeah okay.
[student: This sounds like somethings cutting roots of your virtue in this way, it,
such a, sounds so sort of violent and all encompassing.]
Yeah it is.
[student: But then...]
Its very, very evil thing.
[student: Presumably, presumably we all snip away here and there...]
No, no thats not it [laughter], {ge tza che} means to totally reject goodness...
[student: I understand that.]
You know, its like a Hilter [unclear] type of thought you know. There theres
no reason to be moral. If you...Very bad thing, you know, they may do it in their
own little way, you know but they, but almost every human being alive
understands that its wrong to hurt people. Were talking about people who
dont have that, were talking about people who say, you know, you can do
what ever you want. One life to live. Theres no such thing as gods retribution
or karma or what ever you want to call it, and and I can do what I want. And
you see extreme cases like that. Thats {ge tza che} okay.
[student: Thats the specific definition of physcopath.] [laughs] [laughter]
[student: [unclear]]
[student: According to [unclear].]

[student: Satinist, satinist...]

[student: Yeah someone like that who has absolutely no reference as far as
[unclear]or ethics morality.]
Right, so when you reach that point...
[student: Ethics [unclear].]
Where you can no longer ever, ever have that, thats a cessation, but its not a
{sol sur tak}. We call it {sol sor tak min}, what done {min} mean? {Mine}.
[student: Smaller?]
A non, a non individual analytica...anaylsis cessation, [laughs] okay, all right. So
there are two kinds of cessations you can have; one is a result basically of seeing
emptiness directly and the happen of the fourth, third, fourth and fifth paths,
third and fourth really.
[student: Third and forth?]
Yeah, and then the other kinds of cessations are cessations you get from some
kind of Dharma understanding some things, and you can have those before you
reach the perception of emptiness. Were talking heavy duty, now we get back
to the point. Nirvana has to come from the first kind of cessation. Nirvana is the
first kind of cessation. Nirvana can only happen if you see what?
[student: Emptiness.]
Emptiness directly, and then you see the Four Noble Truths, the Four Ayra
Truths please. Okay, all right, so thats the the final part of the definition. Now
you have the whole definition of nirvana.
[student: Are you saying that emptiness is...once you perceive emptiness directly
you reach nirvana, or you...]
No, no...
[student: Or one of the requirement for nirvana?]

Yeah, it, nirvana is a cessation which much occur, which must be brought on by a
perception of emptiness directly. Its an ending of something nasty in your
mental stream, but that ending has to be through this incredible power of seeing
emptiness directly.
[student: But through seeing emptiness directly and something else.]
Right, practicing a lot. [laughter] Thats what the fourth path is all about, thats
why they call it, what?
[student: Habituation.]
Habituation, youre getting used to what you saw, and, and you keep thinking
and the whole path of habituation has like these twelve, eighteen, twenty levels
of... you know first you get rid of your gross anger, then you get rid of your
more subtle anger and then you get rid of, they have nine divisions. Theres the
subtle, theres the gross gross angle, miggle, middle gross angle, anger, and
subtle gross anger. Then you get to the little middle anger, the middle middle
anger and the, Im sorry, gross middle anger, middle middle anger, subtle
middle anger. And then you through all these you, youre basically chipping
away at anger with this incredible thing that youve seen, until finally at the end
you reach this {gompa}. You cant have that anger any more.
[student: Can you give us the whole thing now?]
[laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughter] Its in the text [unclear]. But its a cessation,
which is, which come from, I called it in the translation the individual analysis,
and now you know what Im talking about. The individual analysis, means
seeing the Four Noble Truths one by one, as a result of seeing emptiness
directly, okay. So its a cessation which come from that individual analysis. You
could think of it as seeing emptiness directly and the Four No..Ayra Truths okay.
And which consists of eliminating entirely the mental affliction obstacle from
your mental stream. So basically nirvana means the day when you dont have
any more bad thoughts and you dont even have any more seeds for bad
thought because youve seen emptiness directly.
[student: But I thought you only get to the point where you dont have any
more seeds when your a Buddha.]
Right.

[student: And then you could attain nirvana without being a Buddha.]

Oh no, no. Yeah, its, its a you can attain nirvana without being a Buddha. Just,
you can reach without being a Buddha. You can destroy all the bad thoughts
and all the seeds for the bad thoughts without being a Buddha.
[student: Without having bodhicitta?]
Right.
[student: Oh thats...]
[student: Oh.]
[student: Oh.][laughter]
[student:
[student: The same nirvana? The exact same nirvana that a {Mahayana}...?]
No, no.
[student: No?]
But, but from the point of view of removing those bad thoughts, yes.
[student: So, so if you remove the bad, all the bad thoughts...]
And their seeds.
[student: And you had...and their seeds, and you had bodhichitta...]
If you had love soaking your mind those, the, the, those two desires for
Buddhahood, to help people, yeah youd be a Buddha [unclear].
Yeah,
Mahayana nirvana and Buddhahood are the same thing.
[student: Oh, okay.]

So they dont call it nirvana, but they might as well. Okay.

[student: Okay.]
Yeah, by the way {tarpa}, freedom, is a synonym for {nybe ne}. Okay.
{Moskak}...
[student: What?]
Freedom, liberation and, and nirvana are all the same thing. They, theyre, the
word is the same, the meaning is the same.
[student: Arent they the same [unclear]]
[student: And also liberation?]
Yeah, you say {tharpa}. [unclear] from [laughter]. And it, that was {tharpa}, and
it means freedom. And its a, its a synonym for nirvana. Yeah.
[student: Going back to {bak cha}s, Im going to try to understand that for a
minute.]
Its a difficult subject, and well study it...
[student: Just let me see if Ive got the idea of {nung drup}. So you have a mental
affliction, you have a the obstacle of a mental affliction...
Right.
[student: And responding to that mental affliction getting pissed off or what
ever, you know, creates the predisposition to behave that way again.
[student: {Bak chak}.]
[student: Right, if you have this mental affliction and you dont respond by
getting angry, then you dont generate the {bak}, {bak chak}.]
Beautiful. Now let me take you one more step, and what is it that makes you
not respond?

[student: Its the understanding of emptiness and karma.]

Reason, just plain knowledge, just plain understanding. Youre, youre
understanding of the process has to overcome your natural instincts. Its very
difficult.
[student: So a mental affliction doesnt automatically generate a {bak chak}?]

No...yeah [laughs], if you let it go.

[student: No, but if you let it, but its not...]
Yeah, yeah but..
[student: But it doesnt have to.]
If you can stop it...
[student: Yeah.]
It wont it wont plant a very good {bak chak}, itll plant a very wimpy {bak
chak}. [laughter]
[student: But what do you call whats there?]
Excuse me?
[student: Would you call {bak chak} whats there as potential, even if its not
actualized?]
Right.
[student: Long before you ever...]
Yeah, and a lot of...
[student: Perceive emptiness directly.]
Yeah, a lot of the practice of doing death...

[student: Meditation?]
Of going through death the right way. A lot of that involves not activating {bak
chak}s.
[student: Supressing?]
Yeah, theyre there, but not giving them, theyre called, its called not pouring
the waters of emo..emo..bad emotions on top of that {bak chak}. The {bak
chak}s are there as you die, but if youre able to control your mind as as you die
they dont get watered and then they die in their, in their state as a seed. They
dont have anything to trigger them.
They, the tenth link of dependent
origination which we call {jupa sipa}, which is badly mangled in translation, by
the way [laughs] its the process of activating the seeds. Its a kind of karma, and
well study that, well study the twelve links.
[student: Now those {bak chak}s dont die they go to your next rebirth with you
right?]
They, they...
[student: Good question.]
They never get triggered.
[student: But theyre still there.]
Theyre still there.
[student: In your next rebirth.]
Uh...
[student: Uh... ][laughter]
You dont take a rebirth.
[student: Oh, you said...good point, but for us.]

Yeah, yeah.
[student: But for us?]
Yeah, you dont take a normal rebirth. Yeah, those {bak chak}s dont, arent able
to produce a body and a mind like us.
[student: Right, right theyre still floating around until they get destroyed.]
Theres, I dont know if theres a mental stream for them to be in.
[student: We talked about this high level, but I mean for us, we take a rebirth
in...]
Yeah.
[student: So weve carried them with us time and again until we get to the time
when we can die without watering them. You, you make it sound like when we
can die without anger, without fear, without what do you...]
Partly that, yeah, yeah.
Mainly those two wanting something or hating
something. But thats a...Im not going to get into that. Thats not a method,
wed rather do it before that [laughs]. Okay, you can achieve nirvana tonight
and you will look the same to everyone tomorrow. I mean nirvana does not
require death. Okay.
[student: So how does it...]
Nothing to do right? Nothing in the definition that would suggest that you have
to die. Its just when you eliminate through understand...through knowledge
when you eliminate that, that habit and the, the seeds for it. Then you achieve,
you can acheive nirvana and you [unclear] walk around like John Stillwell, the
same okay.
[student: So, so if you experience nirvana and your not, you appear the same,
how are you substantially changed? You have, you know all this bliss I would
assume.]
Were gonna...

[student: Youre in all this bliss.]

Were gonna discuss it after the break. Seriously, were going to discuss it after
the break.
[student: But first some blissful cookies.] [laughter]
[student: You say cessation, you dont say all cessation in the definition, so
couldnt that mean that you stop anger but you still have desire or...?]
No, we did say entire, entirely, in their entirety.
[student: Also, its kind of, what is it; all cessations in their entirety?]
No, no, its a cessation of all you bad thoughts.
[student: Oh, its a ...]
Dont forget, cessation means, just an ending.
[student: A cessation of...?]
Of all you bad thoughts and all the seeds.
[student: But, but whats it? I want to write down the right thing, a cessation
of...?]
You can say a cessation in which all your bad thoughts and all of their seeds have
been eliminated from the, the stream of your mind. And then theres one more
element of that. What, what, what are we missing when I say it that way? A
cessation where all the bad thoughts and their seeds have been eliminated from
your mind.
[student: From the individual analysis.]
Because, youve perceived emptiness and the Four Ayra Truths. Youve got to
talk about what was the, the gun that, that shot them, all right, its called {ngem
po ngok ten}. What is the atom bomb that has the power to stop them
permanently? Is, is, theres only one and its its the perception of emptiness
directly. And in fact, the proof that samsara has an end... does it have a

beginning?
[student: No.]
It has no beginning. The proof that it has an end is that perceiving emptiness is
such a powerful gun, you know [laughs] thats the proof for the end of samsara.
[student: You mean like a debating proof?]
Yeah, when you debate the end of samsara. Does it have a beginning? (clap) No.
Does it have an end? (clap) Yes. {Ka rin}. (clap) {Kopa kin}. (clap) Yeah, {dop ten
ngon ne cha}.
[student: It has no beginning, but it has an end?]
Absolutely. [laughter]
[student: Just because something has a potential [unclear] doesnt mean that it
does.]
[laughs] If it didnt, you shouldnt come to this class. [laughs] [laughter] Okay,
yeah, have a break. Go, go, go.
******
Next actually they do a definition.
[student: Analyze it?]
No after you define it what do you do next?
[student: You prove it.]
[student: You pick it apart.]
We did that already, right, we did each part of the definition. So what then you
go onto the divisions and thats normal, pretty normal. The types, how many
types of nirvana are there?
[student: Two?]

[student: Three?]
Theres five. [laughter]
[student: Theres, theres one... five different kinds of...]
Im sorry theres four, four, four, four.
[student: Nirvana.]
[student: Oh.]
[student: Oh.]
Theres actually theres more, theres like six or seven, but were gonna stick to
the four.
[student: Im sorry, could you repeat what the {rang shen}, what it means please]
{Rang shen} means means natural, nature. So this is natural nirvana.
[student: This is nirvana number one of four?]
Yes.
[student: Basic four?]
[student: Five, wasnt it five?]
[student: It changed?]
Four. Im sorry, I should not have said five, its, its four. There are more, but,
but were gonna stick to four right now.
[student: Geeze.]
[student: Whats the {mayata} again, huh?]
All of those first course students know what this is.

[student: I think thats a [unclear].]

[laughs] Say {dung dam} [repeat], {tempa} [repeat], {dung dam} [repeat],
{tempa} [repeat]. {Dung dam} means ultimate. {Tempa} means truth.
[student: You pronounce the p like a b?]
Its not a p or a b.
[student: Neither?]
No, we dont have it in English, we dont have it [unclear] and and scholars who
dont know Tibetan very well fight over whether its a p or a b. Its neither
one [laughs] and thats why they fight [laughs]. Okay, {Dung dam tempa}.
{Dung dam}: ultimate truth. Ultimate truth is half of existence, what is the
other half?
[student: [unclear] truth.]
Yeah, okay, we call it what?
[student: [unclear].]
[student: Deceptive truth.]
We call it deceptive truth, or apparent truth, maybe well call it deceptive truth.
So, everything is either ultimate truth or deceptive truth. Okay, whats this pen?
[student: I dont want this...]
[student: Its ultimate truth being perceived right now by us as deceptive truth.]
No, its not.
[student: Deceptive truth?]
Its deceptive truth [unclear] okay.
[student: There is no ultimate truth...]

[student: Because it has no, its not self existent.]

Its not, it is not ultimate truth...
[student: Because its...]
And Its ultimate truth on any level to anyone.
[student: But its..]
[student: And theres no ultimate truth to it.]
[student: But it has emptiness...]
It has ultimate truth. It is not ultimate truth. Do you Kyli have a coat?
[student Kyli: Yes absolutely.]
Are you a coat? [laughter]
[student: Kyli: Do I, am I a coat?]
Its the same thing. No, [I mean this is?] si...silly. It, it has ultimate reality but its
not ultimate reality. Youre not a coat, you have a coat, [theres a ?] difference.
This is deceptive reality, why?
[student: Cause its composed of parts.]
[unclear]
[student: Its not a reason.]
Then emptiness is like...
[student: Is it, how karma makes a seed?]
[student: I dont know]
Emptiness is not composed of parts. (clap)

[student: Is emptiness composed of parts?]

[student: No.]
Of course it is. Theres yesterdays emptiness, todays emptiness [unclear].
Anyway, thats an old debate [unclear]. But its, its a, its, its deceptive reality.
Why? Come on?
[student: Because its being perceive by...]
Because to a normal mind, okay, meaning a messed up mind [laughs], it looks as
though its self existent and its not.
[student: I think it should [unclear] you know?]
Right, you you, your mind, theres a part of your mind and if I ask you where
did this pen come from, or how did this pen come to be, you always have the
wrong answer. [laughs] Okay, to a to a normal, okay, thats why, thats why this
is, thats why this is deceptive reality. Its nature is to fool you. Its its actually
not its nature, the nature of a normal mind is to be fooled by this pen. Okay,
whatsth opp...whats the other kind of reality?
[student: {kon son linpa}]
{Dung dam yempa}: ultimate reality. Okay. The word truth in this case, you
have to realize and you should always remember, doesnt mean...
[student: True.]
Truth, it doesnt mean a true fact. Its, in this case the word, the word truth is a
is a word for reality. It doesnt mean truth, it doesnt mean the fact that this is
not a lie and this is the truth, it doesnt mean that at all. Why? Can you divide
truth into deceptive truth and and [laughs] real truth, ultimate truth. Not at all.
Deceptive truth is a lie by nature. Okay, you dont divide truth into lies and
tru...real truth. [laughs] Okay. Its not, its not truth. What they call ultimate
truth and what do they call it...relative truth, which I dont like that term
actually, I dont even know where they got it actually.
[student: Conventional, I think conventional is better.]

You can call it conventional, but the word in Tibetan and in Sanskrit, it is is
deceptive, you know, and thats the point. Its not that its conventional, well its,
it happens to be conventional, but thats not the point, the point is that it fools
you. Its bogus.
[student: And theres nothing that that gets across the idea that that there is...it is
a con...convention?]
It is a kind of...
[student: In the sense that it has to be, it has to ...]
No, not in the word...
[student: Certain conditions...
Yeah, no...
[student: in our...]
No, and nothing to do with relativity in the word itself. No, nothing. There is
no, even flavor of that in the word. You know, it, its all explained all over
scriptures as this is why it fools you, this is why it fakes you, this is why it seems
to be one thing, this is why its deceptive, this is why its bogus. Theres nothing
about, you know, it happens to be true, theyre all all bogus realities is relative
and all bogus realities...what was the other word?
[student: Conventional.]
Conventional, but thats not what the word means.
[student: But then what do you, what do you say when youre talking about the
appearance of...you know the..]
What appears to us.
[student: The str...the rope, the piece of rope that appears to be a snake.]
They, sometimes, they call it nominal, nominal reality or conceptual

reality or something like that. But anyway understand that, that natural nirvana
means ultimate reality, thats natural nirvana.
[student: Natural nirvana.]
Yeah, why do you think its natural? Why do you think ultimate truth should be
natural?
[student: Cause its innate.]
[laughs] What does natural mean to you? Whats the opposite of natural?
[student: Unnatural.]
Artificial, right?
[student: Fake.]
Artificial. Natural means that something has had this quality forever and ever.
In Tibetan you say {dum ane}, it mean from the beginning of time it had this
quality, thats what natural means. Nobody made it, nobody put it there,
nobody fixed it later, for time and all beginning it has had this nature. And thats
what natural means.
[student: So it seems thats theres only, we have broken it down to two, but
now it seems to be just one?]
No, by the way, were only on number one. This, what Im saying is that this
equals this. This equals this...
[student: Huh?]
And were on nirvana number one, okay we havent reach any other kind of
nirvana yet. What Im saying is that natural nirvana is defined as ultimate
reality. What is natural nirvana? Ultimate reality. What is natural nirvana?
[student: Ultimate reality.]
{Tom ame}. Whats {tom ame}?

[student: Emptiness?]
Emptiness. So does every object have natural nirvana?
[student: Yes.]
Yeah. Okay, thats why they call it natural.
[student: Including the pen you were just holding now?]
Yeap.
[student: Ah.]
[student: [unclear]]
[student: Gotcha.]
Huh?
[student: Mine or [all of us?].]
Yeah, good, good question. I like it, see, now youre starting to break down the
thing. Yeah, we all understand the natural, I mean every object in the universe
has been for, for as long it exists and as long as it shall exist it it it does not have
any self nature and thats its emptiness. But how is this, how is the emptiness of
this pen, how is the true nature of this pen nirvana? Whats the definition of
nirvana?
[student: Cessation of bad thoughts.]
Stopping bad thoughts and their seeds in your mind stream and did the pen do
that?
[student: It doesnt have a mind stream.]
No, okay, good, good answer. Okay, so {rang she nang de} is not...
[student: Mental.]

Natural nirvana is not...

[student: Samsaras...]
Nirvana, [laughs] okay. All right, we had this before. We divided things
[laughter] in name only, okay. This thing got the name natural nirvana, but it
aint a nirvana, okay. Bod...sugarcane bodhicitta is...
[student: Not.]
Not bodhicitta, okay. We had some other divisions like that. What were those?
Oh, five monks is not...

[student: Form.]
[student: Sangha.]
The Sangha Jewel, okay. These books are not...
[student: Dharma.]
The Dharma, but you can...and and these books are not {paramarimita}, but they
can be called the perfection of wisdom. We say {deg de pe derge} in Tibetan, in
name only, okay. Just nominally you could call this nirvana, but its not
nirvana. Now Ill give you an interesting question [laughs], this is not on your
homework, this is something to think about, okay. Could, could anything be
this kind of nirvana and also be the other kind of nirvana.
[student: Whats the other kind?]
[student: Yeah, what the other...]
The one that we defined before, that ending of bad thoughts in somebodys
mind stream. Is there anything which is natural nirvana and also the ending of
bad thoughts in somebodys mind stream permanently?
[student: Your Buddha nature?]
Close, yeah, very very close, yeah the dharma body of of a Buddha.

It is a

cessation and [unclear] one of the parts of his body is is a cessation and is
emptiness also.
[student: Its the emptiness of the mind of of...
Yeah.
[student: The emptiness of mind of somebody who has seen emptiness.]
Yeah, and theres a bitter debate about it. I mean... but anyway, basically this is
{swatika tranke}.
[student: [unclear] This is, this is, this emptiness...]
Yeah.
[student: Natural nirvana, is a component or a subset of the full nirvana
definition.]
No its not.
[student: Sure its emptiness.]
Like every other object nirvana has its emptiness, and so in that sense nirvana
has its natural nirvana.
[student: Right, thats true.]
But its not, its, but its not in the definition anywhere.
[student: Well in, they havent perceived emptiness.]
Oh, yeah, okay thats implied, its not stated, yeah.
[student: So, so why are you saying this is one of the four types of nirvana, if its
not nirvana?]
{De de derge}, in name only.
[student: In name only.]

We just want you to hear all the things that are called nirvana.
[student: So maybe we should like have a different name instead of saying four
types of nirvana.] [laughter]
[student: Yeah, this is not really a a a type of nirvana.]
You can say; nominally four types of nirvana, and thats exactly what the text
says when you read it at home youll see, youll see that it says...
[student: Are we, is the words different in Tibetan?
distinguish?]

Is there something to

Yeah, they say before they give this before, they say; there are four types of
nirvana, they say; in name only there are four types of nirvana.
[student: This is getting far field, like were doing four types of nirvana but its
not really nirvana, its [unclear]...]
Right.
[student: But heres like four cans...four oranges but theyre not really oranges,
so its, lets have pine..apples for lunch.]
[laughs] Well, what if I say it this way; here are four things that all throughout
the scriptures are called nirvana. Okay, so you better know them cause when
you bump into natural nirvana, and youre gonna, your student is gonna say,
hey John, whats natural nirvana? Youll say, well mmm.. lets see, not
mental, I dont know if its mental, I dont know... [laughts] [laughter] Okay so
you gotta, its just learning the four things that are called nirvana. Okay, and this
one is not nirvana, okay. This is..[laughter]
[student: Never be able to use the word nirvana again on your homework again,
[unclear] lose points.]
[student: Sugarcane.]
[student: How are [unclear] nirvana [unclear] natural nirvana...]

No. Its not a cessation.

[student: Its like {sor tantrica} is really messed up right? Is that what...]
No, no, no dont ever think that. Dont ever say that...
[student: Oh Im sorry]
Yeah. We could be, if we could really be a {sor tantrica}, we we probably
wouldnt be here. Okay, so thats {rang sen damde}. Okay, what time is it?
[student: Well not really time at all.] [laughter]
[student: Its nominally ten oclock.] [laughter]
We have a problem-maker in the room.
[student: Were finished?]
Thats it, Im Im saving the other three for next week because Ill [unclear] Ill
tell you what they are. Okay, theres...you dont write it down, dont write it
down, this is a pre pre pr... what do they call it in the movie theater?
[student: Sneak preview.]
[student: Sneak preview.]
This has been approved for all audiences.
One is nirvana with nothing,
wi...nirvana with something left, what do you, dont write it...
[student: Remainder.]
They call it remainder, and I dont like that. Nirvana with something left over,
what do you think it is?
[student: The nirvana ...]
No, its somebody who...
[student: Excess [unclear]] [laughter]

No, you still have some, you have some suffering in a sense, youre still left with
it. You know, if you achieve nirvana tonight as we described it, are you free of
all suffering? No, you still got a body thats gonna get sick and die and all that
stuff. Thats thats with something left over. And then when you give up this
body you you got nirvana with nothing leftover and then theres nirvana with,
you know, which is even slightly different. Okay.
[student: [unclear] ]
And those are going to be the other three kinds. Yes, okay.
[prayer: short mandala]
[prayer: dedication]

The Asian Classics Institute

Course II: Buddhist Refuge
Class Six: Divisions of Nirvana
Geshe Michael Roach
Transcribed by Angie Overy

[unclear; spelling comments to student]

Say, {hlak-che} [repeat] {nyang-de} [repeat]; {hlak che} [repeat] {nyan-gde}
[repeat]. Say, {hlak me} [repeat] {nyang-de} [repeat]; {hlak-me} [repeat] {nyangde} [repeat], okay. {hlak} means something left over, remain; people call it
remainder. I like left over. Same thing [student: Im sorry, lack [unclear] ], just
{hlak; hlak} by itself means something left over. Whats {thukpa}? You know
kind of {thukpa}? Yeah [laughter] its {thukpa}[unclear] Its soup. [laughter] Its
noodle soup. You say whats for dinner tonight? Youll say {thukhla} Whats
that mean? [students: unclear] {tho - } [students: unclear] Yeah, yeah, you hate
it, you know, [unclear] {thukpa}. {thukpa} means [unclear] {thukpa}. [laughs]
Thats what {hlakpa} means okay. It means, you know, [laughter] [unclear] knife
and fork. People, Tibetans hate it. Theyre, like, {thukpa} again. [student:

unclear] Thats {hlakpa}. So thats how you can remember {hlakpa}. {Hlak-che},
this {che} means, having, possessing; {nyang-de} means, nirvana. The long
form is? Anyone remember? {} [student: past grief]. Yeah. Yeah. [unclear]
Okay, {nyang-de}.
{hlak-me} means? [student: unclear] Yeah. {me} means nothing. So these are the
second and third kinds of nirvana. We had one kind last week. What was that?
[student: natural] natural Nirvana. I forget to tell you the other synonyms for
that. They were in your reading. Did you notice? [student: yes] Kinda of nice:
natural nirvana, natural Dharmakaya, [student: Dharma body, ultimate truth,
natural perfection] You tell, well these are real nirvanas, okay. The first one was
not a real nirvana. By the way, why do they call the first one a, a nirvana at all is
this. Ive seen it in a scripture. Does it, does it ever have any mental affliction? I
mean, is it ever involved with mental afflictions or natural nirvana? [student: no]
[student: unclear?] Right. [student: no] Yeah, first of all its not a mind [students]
but can it ever be involved with mental afflictions? [students] No, its the
antidote. So thats why its nirvana. Its, its in a sense, free of the mental
afflictions and their seeds from the beginning. [laughs] Its never been involved
with them and it never will be involved with them. And they say {..}. {..} means,
for beginning-less time, you know, for trillions and trillions, countless trillions of
years, natural nirvana has never had anything to do with this nasty mental
afflictions; bad thoughts. [student] Thats very simple. Yeah. Its permanent. Its
unchanging. Mind is the opposite. Mind is changing all the time. So those are
some big differences. Thats why it could never [unclear] mind, but could it be
nirvana? Could it be a cessation? Is there anything, which is a cessation and
natural nirvana at the same time? [student] Yeah, the Dharmakaya. [student]
Yeah. And theres a big debate about that. I mean, [unclear] one is a lack of
mental afflictions; one is a lack of self-existence so theyre not really the same in
the sense of what they lack but I debated that once to this Geshe candidate.
He got [unclear] [laughter] [laughs] [unclear] [laughs] [laughter]
Anyway, so these are nirvanas number two and three, alright. These are real
nirvanas. What do you guess they mean? [student] Thats what you might
think but thats not what it is. Its a good guess. [student: okay] Yeah. [student]
Yeah, its like that. Yeah. I told you last time [student] you can achieve nirvana
tonight or you could have achieved it a year ago. I have no idea. By the way,
thats true. I have no idea. Thats why I have to be careful around people.
[laughs] Okay. On my, my level of bad thoughts I wouldnt be able to recognise
who you are so you could achieve it tonight but you still have dirty, you still
possess the skin and the dirt, you know, the blood and the, those parts of your,
of your body from before. They are, are they suffering from the viewpoint of
causes of suffering? Do you have any causes of suffering any more? No. Youre

not causing any more suffering, or from the viewpoint of [unclear] okay. Youre
not making any new suffering. In fact, they say that pretty much from the time
you perceive emptiness directly, there are some convincing arguments. Well
study it, that you abandon the Truth of Suffering altogether. So people say, well
if [unclear] the truth of suffering, I guess you dont have suffering, right?
[unclear]
So, youre not making, its impossible for you to create new causes for suffering
so youve given up suffering in that sense. But you can still have a horrible
death. Udrayana did. There were other arhats who had, you know, [students]
Past karma or past seeds, you know, theres a big debate. First Dalai Lama [student], yeah, well talk about it. Well talk about it okay. [student] The
definition, if you notice in the reading, if you dit it carefully. And the reason I
made the readings so short is that you do read it a couple of times cos its hard.
The definition is the same as the other nirvana. What was the other nirvana? I
mean, what was the definition of nirvana in general? [students] [laughter] Yeah,
in their entirety; that part is the same. And then he says here, but where one still
has the suffering seeds that are the result of his past action and bad thoughts. So
you still have the seeds, the suffering seeds, they call {dukgnel de ..} which are
the result of his past bad thoughts and karma. [student] Well talk about it.
[student] No. [student] Yeah, well talk about it. [student] Yeah. Yeah. As I
understand it. Ill, Ill make sure [unclear] Its good. All the questions you ask me
I go to Rinpoche and I ask for clarifications. I got a [unclear] but its, its, thats
{hlak-che}. Thats the idea. What you have left over is what is still in, what do
you call that? The enertia, you know, of, of your past bad deeds is still throwing,
that energy is still throwing, is still supporting this body, is still, is still making
this body go forward into time. But, when that wears out then you wont, you
wont have [unclear] [student] Thats a point, its a good point. [student] Theres
a big debate. Its not an easy question. The First Dalai lama when he wrote his
book on the Abhidharmakosha, he said, you know, he gives a couple of
examples of arhats who had horrible deaths. One had his head chopped off.
Udrayana [student] I know about and I read that book. I translated that book.
Its here. He, he, he was murdered by his son. And, and its interesting because
at, at the, at the moment of his death he tries to preform a miracle to fly, to go
up in the air away from the assassins. And hes blocked by his past karma cos
he wants to prevent his son from committing two of the five bad deeds: killing
an arhat and killing his father. And his son is always quoted as a person who
managed to do three [laughs] out of the five. [laughter] [unclear] killed his father
and killed an arhat. He sent someone to kill his father. So it appears to be from
my reading that you can [student] suffer but we say youve abandoned the truth
of suffering. [students]
Thats the argument [students] No, that I doubt,

[students] doubt that it would be the same sort of thing. But when Udrayana
goes, he, he has given up his throne and gone to live with the Buddha after he
got the Wheel of Life painting as a present. He said, okay, Im, forget it, Im
going. [laughs] And, and then he stays with the Buddha and then he hears that
his son is acting up and causing suffering for his old subjects. So hes, he decides
to go back. And he, he says to the Buddha, you know, Ive, you know, please
excuse me I want to go back and advise my son not to hurt the subjects. And,
and then it says, driven by, you know theres a nice word in Tibetan, its
propelled by his karma, driven by his karma to the final episode of being
assassinated. You know that hes, the whole incident of him going to the Buddha
and the Buddha can see whats going to happen. And the Buddha says go, you
know, your karma is driving you to this, to a certain [laughs]. Youre going to
meet something there. Your karma is driving you there and, and its [students].
Oh, yeah, yeah [student] he starts to escape, to, to create a miracle and rise up
[students] was compassion. Yeah, it was compassionate. [student] I, I cant
imagine it yeah. I cant imagine that [unclear] It would be hard to imagine that
[students] Also, theres Mahayana arhats and then [unclear] learned how to do
this [unclear]. Its hard to imagine [unclear] had that kind of [student] Yeah, if
you know that four powers then supposedly a car accident turns into a headache
[unclear] and stuff like that. [students] Why didnt he stop him? [student]
[unclear] have the power to stop someones karma [student] If he did he would
have stopped ours. [student] I dont think so. [student] Thats the, yeah, thats
the [student] idea but maybe he saw that, you know, a year later he would have,
the same thing would have happened. I dont know. Theres a story that
Buddhas own people were wiped out under his, in his room. I mean, people
took refuge in his room and soldiers came in and [unclear] couldnt protect them;
his own tribe [student] [unclear]. Yeah. All around him, [unclear]. He had no
power to affect their karma. Theres a story that one of them tried to hide, you
know, near him. [students]
No. Left over meaning those, the karma and the bad thoughts are gone
because, because they are causes. Once the result comes out those causes have
gone. You dont, you dont have any causes per se. You have seeds. You do
have seeds. They were created by karma and [student] bad thoughts. [student]
Yeah. And those karma and that thoughts must be gone now cos the seeds have
already been planted. Meaning the action, those were created by your actions
and your bad thoughts up to that point that you became an arhat. [student] No,
you still have them. And theres a thing called, theres a very nasty little thing
called {.. lempa}, which is something bad that an arhat has that a Buddha doesnt
have [laughs] and Im not quite clear about it. Its some kind of propensity like
that. [student] In fact, the whole storys in there, what he did to be murdered.

And thats the purpose of the, of those, thats from a Sutra. That came from a
Sutra. Thats the purpose of those sutras [unclear] [student] Theres a story
about that too, yeah [student]
Thats also a karmic result of having gotten into a bad habit in your past life and
not respecting life, you know. Thats another kind of karmic result [student]
Theres four kinds of karmic results. I mean, one is that you, one is that you get
killed. Then another one is that you get the habit of not respecting life. So, the
son got the second and the father got the [unclear] yeah. [student] Then the son
got the second maybe [laughs] but thats another story. [student] No beginning.
No beginning because then you have it, you have taking life if its that, if it has
come from a past life then that habit was created by another life. I mean those
are involved with the proof that there is no beginning and well get into that. In
New Jersey on Wednesday nights if anyone has time hes going to discuss the
proofs for past and future lives starting this Wednesday, yeah, six oclock.
[students] Thats the root of all, all, all bad deeds. [students] Thats the [laughter]
[students] thats the main root [students] the main root is, is as weve said many
times. Were going to get to that in a later class. So well talk about that in a later
class.
So those are, those are two kinds of {hlak-me nyang-de} means when you have
no remainder of those dirty deeds, okay, those nasty things. And thats when
you die [unclear] in your last life. [student] Somebody asked me that. You, you
do have seeds in your mental consciousness. You have seeds in your mind
stream. Some of those seeds, they cant create a new body. They will never
create a new body or any new suffering but you do have, like, seeds for
somebody to send you out of that tradition so you go to Mahayana later. You
have some deep-planted energy in your mind stream that it will happen that you
cant stay in that tradition forever. Something will happen to trigger you to
want to go up to the Mahayana [student]
I dont think theyre the same. No, those are good seeds cos those are seeds for
someone to, for you to think someone is [unclear] and go up to Mahayana path.
Student] Yeah, well what Im saying is that this Wednesday, and hes reaching a
point in a book, which is the only place that Im aware, and the only argument
for future lives and past lives. Hes just reached that, second chapter of the
Pramanavartika by Dharmakirti. [student] They do tape it all the time, yeah.
[student] Which brings me to the subject [laughs] [student] Yeah. Hang on one
second before I forget. Ive got to talk about this. Rinpoches, one of Rinpoches
main goals in his life is that we take his tape-recorded lectures and transcribe
them and then put books out. And all of his books are like that and hed like to
do some more. And I thought it would be very appropriate if we helped. And
what I thought was, between courses, if anybody here has time and types well

and has a computer. If you dont have a computer I can even supply one and we
have transcribing machines. You hit it with your foot and it stops and it goes
back a little bit so youre always, it never gets ahead of you. And we bought a
few tonight. And then Ariels agreed to organise that in the New York area so
theyre, the tapes that weve chosen, we went to him and asked him what he
would like is. And one beautiful series of lectures on the bodhisattva vows, see
cos we rarely see them explained anywhere. Then theres a Kadampa, on
mental training text that hes going to do. And then, theres the First Panchen
Lama, that debate in the mind between the angel and the devil in one mind. Its
beautiful. Its really beautiful. [student] We didnt know about that book until he
taught it. [student] Oh no, theres most of the stuff is tantric. Many of the things
are tantric or things that weve already translated so were not going to work on
those things. And there was one more. Do you remember the last one?
[student] Oh, theres one prayer to Manjushri, for wisdom, which is only one
thing. So, those are the four targets and if anyone want, next Tuesday, next
Monday after this class, if you want to stay, anyone who wants to work on that.
And thatll be between courses so its not, like, on top of your homework, okay.
Like, this will be the month of January. [student] I have a computer you can take
home; little laptop, very light [unclear]. Its, weve already [student] Yeah, but
its always [unclear].
You asked about suffering [student]. Yeah. Okay. There are five heaps to a
person. [student] This is just an answer to her question and people had this in
the first course but it doesnt hurt to go over it again. And Ill go over it very
quickly. Five heaps meaning the five parts to a person. [student]
H-E-A-P; meaning pile.
And the Abhidharmakosha says, {..} which means, the reason we call the five
heaps are that they, each part, each of those five parts is made up of many parts
so theyre called heaps. And, and heap is a good translation, you know.
Usually I have a problem about translations but it does mean to pile something
up. Its what you do to leaves in the Autumn. Nowadays, were {pung}ing the
leaves. Whats the three great monasteries in Tibet? [student] Sera, I mean, the
greatest is Sera. [laughter] [student] [unclear] Well its Sera in general; Ganden
[students] and Drepung. {Pung} means, so {pung} means, you know, we always
say to the Drepungs, you know, Sera means hail and you know, you put a pile
of rice out in a hailstorm [student] well wipe you out. [laughs]
So, heap. Heap means something with many parts. And the five heaps are, the
first one is the physical parts of your being. All the, all the physical parts of who
you are, of you. [student] No, any living being has, [student] yeah. There are
beings in the formless realm who dont have a first [unclear] so its possible to
live on four heaps. They dont have any, they dont have any physical body.

Theyre mental beings. So, so the first heap is the physical body. The second
heap is feeling; the mental function of feeling which accompanies every state of
mind. You always have feeling. [student] These are the skandhas. [student]
Skandha means heap. [student] Excuse me? [student] No, this is a mental
function of, of feeling things and its always going. That raw wire is never
covered. Youre always sensing. Youre always feeling good, bad or neutral.
[student] Theres two mentals and theres, theres, you can divide it into three,
which is, pain, pleasure and neutral. Or you can divide it into mental pain,
physical pain, mental pleasure, physical pleasure and neutral. So you can divide
it into three or you can divide it into five. Yeah. No, mental pain is [unclear]
[students]
So thats feeling. Thats a mental function. Number three is discrimination.
Youll see many different translations for these. I can, I can back up the ones I
use with quoting the Abhidharmakosha. So, and I dont think some [laughs]
[unclear] translations are [student] theyre very poor. Theyre very [student]
poor. Well on these five they often use different words. But, but you can, youre
in, youre one of those, you have those three qualities of a good student. What
were they? [laughs] [student] No what were they? Guess. Do you know any of
them? [students] [laughter]
{} means theres a strong desire to study, to study these holy things. What
were the other two? Intelligent. And, impartial. Willing to listen. And the
intelligent one means you can, you can divide gibberish from something sensible
without a lot of teaching. I mean you can sit down and say, come on what is
motivational [unclear] factors, you know what I mean. [laughs] If it sounds like
gibberish it probably is. The guy probably doesnt understand it. Okay.
Discrimination means the ability to what? Distinguish between two things. This
is good. This is bad. This is my friend. This is my enemy. This is a boy. This is a
girl. This is red. This is blue. Thats the function of that mental function. Its also
a mental function. [student] It can be sensory also, you know, blue and red. It
can be judgemental. This is good. This is bad. Thats all done by that heap- that
part. Number four is called other factors. They call it compositional factors.
Doesnt mean anything. [student] Its called compositional factors. Bad
translation. It doesnt have any meaning. The definition of the fourth heap is
{pungpo shi le shin} in the Abhidharmakosha.
If its good enough for
Vasubandhu its good enough for me, three fifty AD. [student] AD.
He said the definition of the fourth heap is that heap which includes all the parts
of you that arent in the other four heaps. [laughs] [students]
Its pretty easy you know. So you can call it what you want you know what I
mean. You can make up any fancy word. Its just {pungpo shi le shin}. Its, its,
its everything about Regina that doesnt come in the other four numbers. Thats

a heap. Its got a lot of stuff in there, come on. Forty-four mental functions,
anger, jealousy, love, attention. [student] Yeah. I didnt give yo number five yet.
Im trying to give them to you in their proper order. [student] Number five is
main mind. Main mind: your consciousness. And you, youre familiar a little bit
with that now. [student] Main mind-s. You dont even [unclear] yeah. Its six
really: mental awareness, eye awareness, ear awareness, nose awareness, taste
awareness, touch awareness. [student]
Thats a long story.
[unclear]
abhidharma in about nineteen ninety-seven. [laughs] If we arrive. [student] Oh
you get a [unclear] hat [unclear] point on it. [students] [laughter] Fifth one is
[students] oh no, fifth one is your, your [students] your mind. [students] No,
number five includes six different kinds of consciousnesses. Your main mind
breaks down into six types. Just your raw awareness of things you see you can
break it down. This is also a raw, you know, being aware of being touched is, is
main mind. [student] Your body contains the nerves which allow your main
mind to sense. [student] Yeah, the nerves, even the nerves; the optic nerve, the
auditory nerve. Those are all part of heap number one but the awareness that is
triggered by those faculties is, is main mind. [student] Well, yeah [student]. Well
it implies a person. Thats no longer a person. These are the parts of a person.
A body is no longer a person. [students] Yeah. No just stuff [student] physical
stuff, the physical stuff. [student]. Just matter as opposed to mind. Atoms, as
opposed to, that invisible stuff you call mind. [student] Now Im going to
answer a few questions about the five heaps. I didnt intend to but its an
interesting subject. Kylie, why do they, do you remember why they take out of,
why dont they have three heaps? Why dont they call it body, main mind and
all the little thoughts that go on in the mind? Why dont they have just three
heaps? Why did they make feelings and discrimination separate from the other
heaps? Why did they take out of forty-six mental functions, why did they throw
forty-four of them into the fourth heap and pull out two of them and make
them, give them the status of their own heap? Remember? [student]
In the Abhidharma it says, {} it means, sorry {.}, which means, the reason
you take out those two particular functions of the mind and leave all the other
ones in that number four grab-bag is that they are causes of samsara, okay.
[student] Theyre always ]students] [unclear] You say this is this and that is that.
And I like that and I dont like that and then you get in trouble. [laughs]
[students] Those two mental functions are troublemakers. [students] I like this
feeling and discrimination. Hes my friend. Hes my enemy. I like him. I dont
like him. Those are the, and theres a beautiful description in the Abhidharma.
The Abhidharma is dry but when it gets to that paragraph its very lyrical. It
says, you know, farmers fight for their crops you know, wives fight for their
husbands, monks fight for their school you know and their philosophical view

point and its all because of these two mental functions you know. Those are the
trouble [students] Yep. [laughs] I [unclear] know this is just answer to her
question. Now why are they suffering? Theyre impure. They have been
created by your bad deeds in the past and you bad thoughts, basically, the ones
you were born with if you are who you seem to be okay. [student] Just got to
sit around until they wear out, you know. [laughs] [student] Youll have a new
set of five heaps after you lose these. [student] Yep. Isnt that true? I mean
[unclear, student talking over Geshe la!] get depressed and upset and [students,
laughter] [unclear] of karma. [laughter] [students] Until [unclear].
Okay. So you still have those dirty deeds, dirty mind, dirty body. The body is,
forget it, useless. I mean, no future, its got to end up in a hospital somewhere if
youre lucky its going to [unclear] [student] [laughter] [students] Weve got to
talk about it. She has a debate for me. Okay now [student] There is, [student] it
depends on what school youre in [student]. Big debate. Big problem; lots of
problems there. Were not going to get into it. I mean, Im not even going to
think about it until we get to that cos its really -. Rinpoche told me dont teach
them all that stuff; just make it easy. [laughs] Okay.
Ill just tell you one little detail. The highest school, were in the lower part of the
highest school right? But the higher part of the highest school says that these
two nirvanas happen in the reverse. They say, {hlak-che} comes first. Im sorry,
{hlak-me} comes first and then you get {hlak-che}. [students] Their idea is that
{hlak- me nyang de}, nirvana with something over, with leftover and nirvana
with still something left, left is reversed. [students] It comes back. Remember all
those dirty things come back. Sorry, Im just, you dont have to write this down
and you dont have to know it. Just be aware that they think no remainder
means no remaining perceptual thoughts which occurs in a direct perception of
emptiness. And then, when you come out of that, it starts sinking again. Youre
kind of reverting to {hlak-che} but, but well get to that in a couple of years.
[students]
Yeah, were up to number four now. Ready? And then well take a break after
that. Somebody asked me, we had those three tracks that complicated thing that
Kylie did a good job on but I havent finished for you yet but somebody asked
me if the two lower nirvanas were any different from each other and Rinpoche
I asked him today and he said, not much, you know. [student]
He said theres a difference in the power of how theyre attained. You see from
the point of view of how theyre attained there is a big difference but the quality
of that nirvana I, I cant think of much difference. [student]
Thats what we, were going to talk about that, yeah. This school says that, okay
[unclear]. [student] Good question. Oh, I love this question [unclear] good
question [laughter] [students] [unclear] good question.

I was going to get to that but I thought Id let you write this down first. There
are Buddhist schools, and we dont have time to go into it, that say when you
achieve nirvana, especially nirvana without remainder, it means that your
physical continuum and your mental continuum discontinue. Chopped off.
They say that, the lowest Abhidharma says [student] and some schools say that
when you reach nirvana without remainder its just the end of you. Im sorry, I
should say the end of your mind and the end of your body. They say its, its
called {} which literally means the discontinuation of the stream of your
physical parts and your mental parts. [student] Well then the highest school will
say, well is there an arhat [student]. Yes, there is an arhat. Well, does he have a
mind or a body? Ah, no [laughter] [laughs]
Who gets this nirvana? Whos around to have this nirvana? [students] [laughter]
And then they, they get stuck [unclear] they hung up. Thats how the higher
schools debate that point. [student] They say theres a, a person. Its very
complicated. I mean the Abhidharma system is very complicated but basically
theres, theres a cessation held by a person; person has a cessation but the mind
and body are gone. [laughter] [students] They call it {}. Its a person living in a
state of cessation. [students] They say theres still a person. [student] Thats the
western idea of nirvana right? [student] Westerners tend to think nirvana
means that and theyre not [student] and there are, there are, there are Buddhist
schools that say something like that. So its not so, it is a little bit understandable
that western people have heard that. [student] Right {gyun che} means, it means
this things being going on in them [student]
Thats, by the way, thats a wrong idea. Thats a lower school idea. [student]
Yeah. Yeah. Its a small, its a lower school tenant. Its not a higher [unclear].
Im sorry. So say {mi ne pay}[repeat] {nyang-de}[repeat]; {mi ne pay}[repeat]
{nyang-de}[repeat]
By the way, the power schools are not dumb and theyre not useless and blah,
blah, blah. We will study, its a whole subject in Buddhism, why do the whole of
the lower schools exist. Why did, the Buddha taught those things. Why did the
Buddha contradict himself? And were going to study it. [student] Oh, its a
beautiful book by Tsongkhapa. Its two hundred and thirty pages long. A lot of
people in the monastery memorise it. Its, its, its how do you know, and what
were his motivations, and how are we to know when we get a teaching, you
know, is this A or B you know? Is this the simplified version or is this the real
thing? How do we know? Okay.
{mi ne pay nyang-de}; {mi} means what in Tibetan? Not. {nepa}, remember? We
had it the other night. [unclear] Friday night class. {nepa} means, to stay, okay,
to abide. We had it in the Friday night class. And then {nyang-de} is nirvana.
This is the fourth and last type of {nyang-de}. So, you can guess whose it is.

[students]
The Buddhas nirvana. Okay. The {nepa} means the nirvana which does not
remain, does not stay. Stay where? It doesnt mean it doesnt stick around
obviously cos he still has it. It doesnt stay in {si-ta} and doesnt stay in {shi-ta},
okay. Where doesnt it stay? It doesnt stay in {si-ta} and it doesnt stay in {shita}. What is {si-ta} and what is {shi-ta}?
These are, {ta} means what, do you know? Whats the {ta} mean in Rinpoches
name? You know {chin} means gone right? From {sherub tu parul tu chinpa},
Prajnaparamita. Its the ita in paramita, gone. What does {ta} mean? {Ta}
means, to the end, to the extreme. So these two words, {ta} and here, {ta} here
they mean the end of something, the final edge. This is the {ta} of the table. If I
put the pen beyond that {ta} it falls off. Thats {ta}, an, an edge, an extreme.
Okay. {Si}means, {si} is a synonym for samsara. There are a lot of words for
samsara. The wheel of life, what they call the wheel of life, that life there is {si};
{sipa korlo}.
This is the extreme that we are in now if you are who you seem to be, okay.
Thats, thats the extreme of, of staying here. Staying where? Staying in this
lousy life, okay. No future. [laughs] You get a new job, you get anything, you
always lose it. No choice. No other option, okay. Yeah. Okay. Now weve got to
{shi-ta}. {shi-ta} would be great if you could get there. {Shi} means, peace, peace,
p-e-a-c-e. Okay. What do you guess is the {shi-ta}? Whats peace? Yeah, lower
nirvana okay, lower nirvana. Just hanging out in that pleasant state [laughs]
thats {shi-ta}. Not bad. [students] Yeah, the extreme of peace and the extreme
of suffering life; those are the two extremes. This is the {si-ta} is the extreme of
this suffering life that we have; {shi-ta} is the extreme of reaching a lower nirvana
and just staying there. [student] Yeah, higher nirvana meaning Buddhahood.
But just staying there in the condition where what have you ended? Two things:
afflictions and their seeds. Just, you know, enjoying yourself there. [student]
Sure, no not for those, okay. [student] Yeah, yeah. Just to stay there is {shi-ta}.
Thats also an undesirable state of, its in Mahayana Buddhism they say, ho what
a big waste of time [laughs]
Youve got to go up to the third path and all that work anyway, you might as
well go straight there, you know. Youre just wasting time. Staying in that
condition very long time where you are having a good time but other people are
still suffering is, is, is an extreme to be abandoned by Mahayana practitioners, to
be avoided yeah. [students]
Well you can say to have them and not have them watered theres, like, well get
into that. Actually, Ill talk about it tonight. So, {si-ta} and {shi-ta}; {mi nepa} not
staying, the nirvana thats not staying, is the nirvana thats not staying in either
one of these two conditions. And that means the nirvana of a Buddha. Hes not

staying in the world of suffering and hes not staying in a, in a lower nirvana
where its just hes happy. Yeah. [student]
Yeah, there is [student] yeah, they say dont, dont, they say anyway youre
going to be compelled, at some point, to get out of that state and go into
Mahayana. You might as well go Mahayana first. [students] That lower nirvana
[student] Oh, they say theres a, its a very beautiful subject. Well study it. What
is the process by which you have some seeds in your mental stream that force
[unclear] to come out and go up, you know. And its very beautiful. So thats
nirvana of [unclear]. Let me see if it says anything else here. Oh, and obviously
what youve done at that time is that youve, what obstacles have you
abandoned, have you eliminated? Youve obviously eliminated the first kind of
obstacles- bad thoughts. And theres, whats the second kind of obstacles? Yeah,
what we call obstacles to knowledge. So, in, in the definition of nirvana that you
had to write about in the quiz tonight, the person had abandoned or eliminated
bad thoughts and their seeds. But in this nirvana hes eliminated the other kind
of obstacles which are obstacles to, to omniscience.
Dont say wisdom.
Omniscience. Obstacles to total knowledge. And thats really the function of
those last three bodhisattva levels that we talk about. Thats where he gets rid of
his inability to know all things. [student] Yeah. [student] Long story. You mean,
there are eight things, there are eight beliefs that separate the two Mahayanas
the two Madhyamika schools. Therere eight points of difference between the
two schools and, and were not going to study them right now. But, one of them
concerns what is a mental affliction. Is ignorance a mental affliction? What is it
that youre abandoning at the final stages, just before Buddhahood? And, and
those are some of the differences that separate the two schools. [student] Its, its
Mahayana, of the two schools, the bottom two are Hinayana, the top two are
Mahayana. And the top school has two parts in it, and were in the lower part of
that. [laughs] [student] Huh? [student] Yeah, he is. [student] What they say I
dont want to get into. Well study it. [student] Yeah, I know. [laughs] Theres
two Svatantrika schools, alright. Have a break and then when we come back
well do a short [unclear]. [student]
[cut] {..} means , no-self. [unclear] got this one in the final. Is there a self or
not? [unclear] Is there a self or not? Is there a Michael Roach? Of course there is.
So, what does no-self mean? Yeah, no Michael Roach that exists from his own
side, independent of you calling him Michael Roach because you are forced to
call him Michael Roach because of your own past deeds. [laughter] [students]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Theres no Michael Roach that comes [unclear] [laughter]
Theres, no-self means no self nature, no nature of my own [student]. In fact, I
have no quality of my own. Every thing is imputed by you or me cos of my or
your past deeds. [student] Doesnt exist actually, no existence of its own.

And, and the word self is tricky because this, this also has {dak me}, you see. It,
its self you say in English, right? The altar itself. Thats what that self means. It
can refer to things also. Self-nature I think would be a better translation. Theres
no quality that it has which it has itself. [students]
Theres a big debate about that. [laughter] Nagarjuna said, I dont have to say
inherently [students] Michael Roach has no features. Michael Roach has no
qualities. [student]
{Tokpa} means, you know what {tokpa} means.
Whats {tokpa?}
Yeah.
Realisation. At least we have a few {hlak che} from the first course. Still
leftover. [laughs] [laughter]
{Sherab} you know. [students] Yeah, wisdom; {kyi} means of. Its the same as
{sherab kyi parul tu chinpa}, of wisdom, right?
But this is {lap-pa} and not perfection, okay; {lap-pa} means, training. [student]
{lap-pa} [students] Genetive. [student] Ill show you. You read it always
backwards, right.
Ready? The perfection, Im sorry, the training of wisdom which realises that
nothing has any nature of its own.
The training of wisdom that realises that nothing has a nature of its own and no
nature of its own. We talk, always talk about the guy at work thing, empty of
being nice or being any quality of its own. [student]
Were getting there. [laughs] This is, what are we talking about? Were talking
about the way to get to nirvana. Thats our last subject. We have finished the
definition of nirvana. We have finished the divisions of nirvana and the four
types. And, now, were talking about how to get to nirvana/. And the book
[student] hey, good question. Lets say, the one which is defined in general,
which we [unclear] last week. Anyone of the last three nirvanas. [students]
Yeah. Yeah. [students] Any [unclear] Yeah. Thats all, its true, Ill, Ill concede
that, okay. [unclear] [laughs]
So, first you, you need three basic things to reach nirvana. Three things have to
be going on. This is the first one. You have to have a training of wisdom which
is perceiving that nothing has any nature of its own. This is what I call the engine
theory. I dont know if anybody were ever, any of you were in that lecture.
[unclear] spiritual things are like an engine all the parts must be there. Its, its,
its the same as in the physical world. The spiritual things are the same as the
physical world. If you have a path or a system or a religion, which doesnt have
certain crucial elements, you can never achieve the highest goals. It wont work.
It just wont work. Theres no reason to believe that spiritual things would be
any different from physical things. If you go to your car and open it up and just
take out one of the things and say probably I dont need this one. Most likely
youll take out something that will prevent it from running and you wont be

able to get anywhere. Spiritual, theres no reason to believe that spiritual things
are any different. They are exactly the same. There are certain amount of
elements that have to be there for you to get a result from a religion and if
theyre, and if, if, any important one is missing, forget it. It wont work. You
know it might look like an engine. It might have a lot people like to say, yeah,
but this religion has a lot of stuff that Buddhism has in it. Maybe. But I mean,
[students] [unclear] so youll get into a plane that has most of the parts of a
plane? [laughter] [students] No, I mean, its even dangerous to have an engine
that looks like a good engine but some, you know, deep down inside some
essential part is missing, its as bad as not having an engine. It might as well be a
lump of clay. It doesnt matter. It wont get you anywhere. It wont start. It cant
get you there. What Im saying is, I dont, I dont say that you have to believe
this now but I assert, I say its possible that in the spiritual world its the same as
the physical world. If some element is missing you cant achieve it. You wont
achieve any great results. You wont achieve ultimate results. Impossible. I
assert that its possible that thats true. You dont have to believe it now but
what we call {lam rim}, the steps of Buddhahood, if any central one, any major
one is missing, forget it that engine wont work. You wont get there. [student] I
dont know. Im just saying think about it. Its possible [student] For nirvana
[laughter] youve got to have three things going on, three elements, three parts
in that engine. [student] Same thing, attain, right. Its the training of wisdom that
perceives emptiness. Thats actually the third training. There are two other
trainings. Whats [unclear], training. By the way, just as a side point, you dont
have to write this down, the reason its a training and not a perfection is you can
have the trainings before the first path. You can have all three trainings before
the first path. [student] Absolutely [unclear] [student] [laughs] [unclear] Its a
highly developed level {}, well look at that some day. But what Im trying to
say is {lap-pa} means, you probably have some form of this {lap-pa} now, okay.
{Lap-pa} is just when youre really trying [laughs] [unclear].
{Lap-pa} is not like, you dont have to get to the first path to have {lap-pa}.
[student] Even before you get to renunciation which is what gets you onto the
first path you can have all the three {lap-pas}. You can be studying these three
things.
What are those three things? {Lap-pa}, {danpo} means first and {nyi} means two,
t-w-o. {} means, [unclear] in here, under the influence of, under the influence
of. [student] Yeah, {}
So, what it means is not only must you be perceiving that nothing has any
nature of its own but that perception, that realisation must be under the
influence of alcohol? No. [laughter] I want you to think of that. Under the
influence of alcohol is that so long as you are drunk, you know, youre, youre

doing something else bad, its influencing, its spreading throughout your body
and its causing some other bad thing. Here, its that wisdom is got the alcohol
of these two other trainings running around in its mind. What are the two other
trainings? The first two trainings, okay, so this means under the influence of the
first two trainings. The first two trainings are what? Wisdom is the third. What
are the first two? Do you know what they are? [students] Trainings. Now weve
got something new.
Okay.
First ones morality and the second one is
concentration. [student] I mean, the more you study the more you begin to see
that theyre all flowing [unclear] [student]
You can think of morality as keeping those ten, avoiding those ten bad deeds
that are in the [unclear]. What it means, as you go to work tomorrow youre
really making an effort not to say anything bad, not to take anything. Were not
going to, you know, were not going to break into your bosss drawer of his
desk and steal money. You might make a phone call that youre not supposed to
make. Thats just plain stealing, you know. You can say, well, theres
circumstances. I needed to do it. I wanted to do it. These are the classical reasons
for embezzling and [unclear] [student] [unclear] [laughs] You have to be careful
with these ten. [student]Literally to sit for one hour without breaking it if you
want to develop concentration and, and theres no other way. Its like that, this
is like dieting or jogging or weightlifting or anything, or music. You must do it
everyday. You must practice it everyday. It has no effect if you do it every third
day or something like that. It just wont, you cant do it, you know. Its
something you have to do everyday. So make time [student] Well, eventually
though, youre going to have to get to about a solid hour everyday somehow.
And you just have to [student] well Im trying to get you to fifteen [laughs]
[student] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [students] Yeah. I also agree, what Im saying is, its
not good to sit down the first day and try to do one hour. Thats impossible.
You wont. Its like trying to lift two hundred pounds the first day you start
weightlifting. So you want to build up to do a straight hour. So, do ten minutes,
take a break, read a book then go back for ten minutes. What Im saying is in
one sitting try, try to [unclear] one hour. If you dont you cant get
concentration. [student] Any kind of meditation; except analytical you can do,
analytical you can do in a chair [unclear] and you can be interrupted and thats
alright. [student] Analytical means what are the arguments for, why do I need
morality [laughs] why should I get morality down to that point? And think it
over. Yeah. Its just analytical meditation and [student] Im talking about what
you, what will lead to shamatha, yeah, samadhi which is meditative
concentration, in meditation. Which is the training. [student] Daily practice,
yeah. [student] Practice it, practice concentrating on one object in a, in a formal
meditation posture. You must otherwise you cant. I, I dont think you can do it

otherwise, you know. Thats minimum. I mean, ideal [cut]

[side B]
[student] one pointed [student] right, right [student] Its a, its a wonderful
preliminary. If, you know, chess players have this analytical meditation [student]
Yeah. And thats, they are still having, theyre not focussing on one picture in
their mind. Concentration is defined as a single-pointed mind. My boss has
concentration on money when he has it. [laughter] He has incredible powers of
concentration. He can, you know, we were with him in Japan and he didnt eat
for twenty-four hours and he didnt sleep and, you know. We went to the coffee
shop and we were hoping he would give us to eat and he drank the coffee and
ate like twelve packs of sugar and then he got up and kept going. [laughs] And
he has concentration. Its not [unclear]. Its not useful. Okay [unclear]
[cut] {Tok} means what? Nah. Yeah. Realisation; {sin} we had up here, same
word different meaning okay. This {sin} means already. {Gompa} means to get
used to, to habituate your self. This is the root for the word for meditation, not
spelled the same, {kompa} and the other one is {gompa}. {gompa} means to get
used to something, to habituate yourself to something. Does that relate to any
one of the paths? Habituation, okay. So, this last part of the method for getting
to nirvana [student] well the last of the three things you need to reach nirvana.
[student] Its not a training no. Were not defining the trainings. The first part of
our paths to get to nirvana, we talked about the third training. And then, in the
second part, we talked about the second training. We said that the first training
has to be under the influence of the other two trainings. And then the third one
is that you have to get used to what you perceived, you have to get used to what
you realised, what you already realised. You have to get used to what you
already realised. [students] Right. So hes mainly talking about which path?
Right, and before the path of no more learning. Hes talking about the fourth
path. So, the fourth path is defined essentially as getting used to what you
perceived, what you realised when? [students] Exactly, yeah. Okay. The whole
period between that, that beautiful few minutes or whatever that you perceive
emptiness directly for the first time and then the period that you finally get rid of
all your bad thoughts, that whole period is, is this. Its getting used to what you
saw before directly. Its getting, running over it again and again and reviewing it
again and again and using that realisation in your daily life. [student] Thats how
its described [student] Its, its, its , it is largely that also but, but technically its,
its defined as getting, it does involve going back into that deep state and seeing
that directly again but [student] this is not just that. This is also in your daily life,
applying it in your daily life, you know. [student] Yeah. [student] What will be
your main thought during that time according to those four bodhichittas we
talked about? He, he can no longer see or think, what, what, what? [student]

During this period [student] its even before that [student] No. During that
period does he believe in what he seeing? [student]
No. He doesnt believe hes right. He believes its wrong. He understands that
hes wrong but does he still see it? This is what we call illusion and thats the only
meaning of illusion. I mean, this is the principle meaning of illusion in Buddhism.
All that other stuff is, you know, sounds nice doesnt mean anything, okay.
[laughs] This is the main meaning of illusion. He knows hes crazy. He knows
hes not seeing things right. He doesnt believe what hes seeing anymore and
hes getting used to that idea and hes using that to be more moral. And hes
using that to get rid of his ignorance. [student] Lets call it the four kinds of
bodhichitta. We got in trouble with [unclear] [student]
No, its not that he perceives emptiness directly all the time. Its that he no
longer sees things as self-existent. [students] At the second one he no longer
believes himself. At the third one he no longer sees it either. [student] Does he
see them as not existing? Thats a good question. I got to think about that.
[students] [unclear] [students] Yeah. Thats a good point. Ill have to ask [student]
Right. [student] Shes saying if he doesnt have the seeds [student] if the seeds
arent doing anything then can he still perceive relative reality? [student] Ive got
to ask [students] Not at all. No. [student] What you want, you have a thing in
logic called proofs [unclear] [student] Hes not seeing them as empty and hes
not seeing them wrong anymore, whats left? What is it? Whats going on?
[students] Hes talking about bhumis eight, nine and ten. [student] hes talking
about, hes talking about bodhisattva levels eight, nine and ten. Its a good
question. Let me cook it.
By the way, part of the answer I know. Part of the answer is that, in this school,
hes, when I told you about the last three levels is, is mostly Prasangika. [student]
Right. What I told you is mostly [unclear] Svatrantika, according to Rinpoche, I
asked him, I mean they, they still believe he has some kind of seeing things as
self-existent but I dont want to get into it. Leave it. Yeah. [student]
Is he in meditation on the last three bhumis all the time? I dont know. Ill have to
think about it. [student] Maybe not. Let me ask Rinpoche. Thats a tough
question. Thats a good question. [student]
Does he re-see the four noble truths is what youre saying, right? Does he go
through that process when he comes down out of that perception? I dont
know. [student] No, not like that. He doesnt stand there and say you will
become a Buddha. You understand that its going to take that many lives. Its
one of the knowledges you get but its not that the Buddha comes, we call {}.
Its not that he appears to you in some vision and he says, hey Michael only
seven lives left, not like that. You perceive the Buddhas Dharmakaya mainly.
[student]

Directly? [unclear] [student] I assume you can. [student] Yeah. But I dont think
[unclear] Dharmakaya is emptiness. [student] Youre still seeing emptiness. You
dont know its emptiness until you come out.
Alright, we should go. Any other questions? [students] Excuse me? [student] Its
my personal experience that its very preferable to make it the same time
everyday cos your friends get to learn, your friends get to know that if they call
you and no body will answer the phone. If they bang on your door youre not
going to answer it. You get in the habit of not delaying it to the end of the day
when youre tired and exhausted and [unclear] have any results. If you do it the
same time every day for years, just, Benjamin Franklin said, Oh let the world
adjust to my schedule. [laughter] [laughs] Im tired of adjusting. The world is
endless [unclear] theres always a problem to be addressed. Theres always a
phone call, [unclear] [student] I know. And I did it at the last minute cos I need
a hand. [students] You can punch them if you want [students] It is. I got to go
turn that alarm off [students] [laughter] [unclear]
Goodnight.
[cut]

Course II, Buddhist Refuge

Class Seven: Proof of Emptiness
Transcriber: ???
Proofread: May 2003

[cut]
part of trying to prove emptiness. So, {gakja} means Kiley knows. We had it
once before. And the people from the first course, I hope, know it. Wait, treat
him lightly, {Dinwah}. This is {Dinwah}. Remember {gakja}?
[student, John Stillwell: I remember the word, [laughter] but not the meaning.]
[student: Tea?]
[student: [unclear]]
[student: cold in Poland.]
[student: Well, you can drink it, cause [unclear]] [laughter]
Thats okay; thats fine. So, {gakgakja} means the thing that we deny. It
means the thing that we say doesnt exist. Its the thing that emptiness is empty
of. Its a self-existent thing that doesnt exist, anyway.
[student, Tom Kiley: That what aint]
[student: Can you even see the thing?]
{Gak} means deny, and youll see it often times theyll say refute. And, {ja}
means to beobject, object to be.
So, if I say, {Gakja} means self-existent thing. {Gakja} means a thing which
exists by itself, and theres no such thing. So, {gakja}when you say
emptinessemptiness means somethings missing. Like today my Lama sent
me to take the garbage out, and I pick up the can, and its empty. So, Im
expecting garbage, but its empty. So, that then the {gakja} in that case was
garbage. [laughter] So, {gakja} means the things that we say doesnt existthe
thing which we deny. {Gakja} means [unclear].

[student, Tom Kiley: Object to be negated?]

They can, theyyou hear all sorts of different translations.
[student: And this is the first [unclear]]
I call it the object we deny. All right?
[student: I dont get this.]
[student: Is thatis this the]
Its the thing we say doesnt exist. Its what
[student: The thing who says?]
All Buddhists. Its what emptiness is empty of.
[student: Self-nature]
Yeah. You can call it self-nature. Were gonna go into it very deeply. I mean,
different schools call it different things.
[student: Okay.]
[student, Tom Kiley: The object of ignorance.]
Long story. Okay. Yeah.]
[student: This is]
They call it object to be refuted, object to be denied, object to be debated.
[student: And this is what there is betweenamong the schools.]
Oh, big differences between the schools.
[student: Right, but thats, its the same word.]
Yeah. Sure. Its, this word is the same, {gakja}. What were trying to deny, what

were trying to say doesnt exist, is allis different for each school. {Gakja}
[student: Are we still wearing the same hat?]
Were wearing Svatantrika hat for this whole course. Okay. In here you get
youre gonna gettonight youre gonna get a good dose of Svatantrika. Okay.
Thats athats a little bit different from
[student: As Svatantricks, do we agree with ourselves?]
[laughter]
Well, sure. You have to defend it. Yeah.
[student: Thank you.]
Okay? So, thats {gakja}. {Gakja} is what emptiness is empty of. All right? And,
the very first section in studying {gakja} is, is identifying what is the {gakja}.
Thats the first part. Wellfirst of all youbefore you can understand what,
you have to understand what the {gakja} is. What?
[student, John Stillwell: Could bewell, the self-existent nature is [unclear]]
You have to understand that before you can understand emptiness, because
emptiness means
[student, John Stillwell: The absence of that]
The absence of that, so if you dont know what its absent of, then you cant
study emptiness. The book gives an example. It says, If you want to study, if
you want to know if theres a water pitcher in this room, you have to have a
mental picture of a water pitcher. If you dont know what a water pitcher is, you
cant realize its absence in this room. And thats the same thing. If you dont
know what the {gakja} is, youll never understand emptiness. If you dont know
what a self-existent thing, should I say, is or is supposed to be [laughs]
[laughter].
[student: What it would be like if it could be.]
Okay, what it would be like if it did exist, then, then you cant understand

emptiness. You have to have a good idea of what a self-existent thing is.
Otherwise, you cantyoull never understand its emptiness. And then they
always quote atwo lines from Shantideva. Theyre in your handout, but they
say, {gahpe moonah mah rekpa deshe demun mentze mahyin}, which is very
famousgood way to start a debate in the monastery. {Gahpe moonah mah
rekpa}, if you{gahpe moonah mah rekpa}until you are able to find what it is
that you think exists, {demun mentze mahyin}, you will never be able to realize
that it doesnt exist. So you have toyou have to understand what it is, what a
self-existent thing would look like if a self-existent thing existed. And thats the
thats why you have to study {gakja} before you study the proofs for emptiness.
You have to study what theyre trying to deny. Okay?
[student: When you first start to study this dont you get the feeling that its kind
of semantics? I mean]
Ah, yeah, yeah, at first, and its a kind of blessing. Its a kind of result of your
good deeds when it becomes very meaningful to you. They say in Tibetan
{kelwa-me}. If you think itsif it sound to you like semantics or if it sounds like
just arguing about words, you, youre missing something. And it, and it does at
the beginning. [laughs] And before we study Madhyamika in the monastery,
before we study emptiness, we have to do all these practices. I mean, they stop
for six months or eight months and, and they just try to get enough goodness to,
to understand. They just pray for understanding emptiness. Rinpoche, ourmy
Lama, you know, he went to some cave, and before he opened a book he did all
these meditations and prayers that he would have enough goodness to catch it.
[laughs] You know. And you find students that dont. You know. Yeah?
[student: The sic of them that I really dont understand between the hinayana
and the mahayana with respect to]
Well get there.
[student: understanding emptiness. Goodness, because its a different kind
merit that were accumulating.
Not really. Not really. I mean any kind of merit is quite fine [laughs] Theres
better ones and theres more powerful ones and less powerful ones. But
[student: But they both work

Giving the fruit to the Dalai

[student: as far as cognizing emptiness directly?]
Oh sure. Any good deed. Yeah. Any good deed helps at all. But it its there,
you know, there are, like were studying logic nowadays, and logic isseems
very dry and very irrelevant. And, but if you have a {kelwa} if you have the
goodness in you, then when you study it, this stuff blows your mind. You
suddenly realize that you can prove past lives. You can prove the existence of
emptiness and things like that. So, its just some kind of athe sametwo
different people can go through the same subject and catch different thingyou
know. Its like people look at artwork or music or things like that. Okay. So
thats {gakja}. {Gakja}, if it existed, would exist in a way, which was opposite to
the way that things existwhat you call conventionally or what we call
deceptively. Okay? Ill say that again. [laughs}
[student: Thank you.] [laughter]
If it existed, it would have to exist in a way that was the opposite of the way
things actually exist. And when I say actually exists I say deceptively exists.
[student: Tom Kiley, right, which is the way we see things.]
The way, the way that things conventionally exist. IfIll say it again. [laughs] If
the {gakja} did exist, it would exist in a way that was the opposite of the way that
things really do conventionally exist. So, first you have to study how do things
exist conventionally. I dont like to call it conventionally. I prefer deceptively.
Cause thats the word. Okay. They call it concepahdeceptively. EveryDid
I lose anybody? [laughs] You all right?
[student: uh, huh]
Okay. All right.
[student: It seems to be the opposite.]
Excuse me?
[student: No. I mean it. I mean. I mean it seems to be notin other words
you, youre trying to say]

Right. If it existed, it would have to exist in a way that was the opposite of the
way that things
[student: But I thought you were saying that what it is is a is a deceptive thing
and youre saying if it existed then itif this deceptive thing existed it would be
the opposite of a deceptive thing.]
No. All things around us are deceptive. And, if it existed, it would have to be
something that doesnt exist deceptively. It doesnt exist deceptively. It doesnt
exist at all. The {gakja} doesnt exist at all.
[student: Any more than anything else did.]
Oh, yeahnosure. All other things that you see exist deceptively. {Gakja}
doesnt exist deceptively or ultimately. It just doesnt exist.
[student: Oh, okay, okay.]
Its a self-existent thing. Its a boy with two heads. Its an elephant in this room
right now. Its aI dont want to say an honest politician, but[laughs] I
shouI dont mean that. You know, its aits just a thing that doesnt exist.
But, but you better know what it looks like, cause supposedly you, you see
everything this way. Supposedly, you are often seeing {gakjas} when you are
angry or when you have desire. I would sayits very interesting. I would say
you cant have an emotion that is negative unless you are focused on the {gakja}.
Thats pretty heavy.
[student: Why would a positive emotion be different?]
Well, I mean posilike, ah, {migme ningje}like the ultimate kind of
compassion understands the emptiness of its object. Thats what Im saying. But
most, yeah, any normal, positive emotion also. But the emotions that get you
into troubledesire, hatred, jealouslytheseat, at the moment that you have
them, you must be focused on the {gakja}. Youand thats why when you
understand that there is no {gakja}, you can reach nirvana. Thats why you can
become an arhat, a foe destroyer. Whats a foe destroyer? [laughter] [unclear]
[student: Backtrack] [laughter]

This is for last week. Sorry. Foe destroyer is the Tibetan translation of arhat.
And there are Sanskrit roots arethey can be related to enemy. So, the
Tibetans call arhat, enemy destroyer. The word in Sanskrit also means
worthy one one who is worthy. Of means he who is worthy. So,
sometimes if youre reading a Tibetan transa translation of Tibetan and even a
Tibetan book, itll say, Arhats are arhats because they are worthy of all the
world to bow down to them. And, and you dont know why, so whawhy did
they come here? You know. In Tibetan the pun doesnt come out. You see. In
Sanskrit its arhat is ar for, for the world to bow down to. And then the
Tibetans just translated it. You know. Enemy killers are worthy and then you
miss theyou miss the pun.
[student: Oh, can we go back even further.
Buddhas also arhats when they reach]

On the two, are the self-made

Yeah.
[student: So, theyre both, both those paths end in arhatship.]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[student: And what are the [unclear]]
Ah, okay. I think we had four [unclear]. Okay, so number four is arhat. Okay?
Number four is arhat. These are the four results of the path. I did not teach you
last week. I was supposed to teach you last week.
[student: Four results.]
Four results of the path. You havent had this yet.
[student: Which path?]
The general Buddhist path. Its a good question. Im not talking the five paths;
Im not talking the three paths.
[student: My gosh.]
Im talking the general Buddhist practice. Normally path is a mental state, but
this time we talk of the the method. The result of that method isthe

[student: You start with number four, number one?]

Ill start with number one. Hows that?
[student: Okay.]
Number one is called stream enterer.
[student: Ah, stream enter]
[student: Im sorry?]
Stream enterer. One who is entering the stream.
[student: What stream would that be?]
Its the stream thatwhere the
[student: Highway to heaven.]
Youthats the stereotype. Yeah, youre notyoure no longer havingits its
its the streamits the immediateits the process at which you are on your
way out. You can call it on your way out. I almost prefer that. You you just
reach the first step of being on your way out of suffering. This is a person who
has perceived emptiness directly. So you could guess {downlam}. Hesyeah
once youwhat hapwhat else happens when you reach {thonglam}?
[student: The individual analysis of the four Aryan truths.]
But I mean the first instant of {thonglam}.
[student: Of what please?]
Of the path of seeing.
[student: And say that word again please.]
{Thonglam} You percyou you become an arya, a rea...What we call realized
person. You reach the first bodhisattva buhmi.

[students: [unclear]] [laughter]

[laughs] Who knows. You get rid of forever your belief in existence, et cetera, et
cetera.
[student: Theres more than the one?]
This is what happens. Yeah. Yeah. When youresult number oneresult of the
path is that you you become a stream enterer. You are on your way out. Youre
definitely on your way out.
[student: Which means youve seen emptiness directly, and its the first step]
Right. And thats what stream enterer means.
[student: Is that natural nirvana?]
You perceive natural nirvana.
[student: Out of what? Of samsara?]
Sure. Yeah. Suffering. The second one is called a once returner.
[student: Once? Like]
Once return-er. Someone whos going to come back one more time.
[student: Back to the earth? [unclear]]
This doesnt mean what it sounds like. Okay? This means to the desire realm.
Okay. You you you will only have to take, at the most, one more birth in the
desire realm.
[student: In human form?]
Ah, no. It could be in ain any of the six forms. But I assume hes good enough
that he gonna be a human.
[student: Is that nirvana with something left over?]

No. No. Not according to our present school. YeYes?

[student: Now. Is thisdoes this also mean its going to be the next birth; or
could there be several births in the form realm?
I believe normally its the next one. But, I, Iits in this bookit can tell you
[student: You said the desirethe six desire realms. Were you talking about the
six]
The six levels of the desire realm. The six different
[student: Youre not talking about the six different realms.]
Well, the desire realm has all six births in it. The form and formless realm only
have the the [unclear], but thats another story.
[student: So that just means samsara.]
No. It means he might take a lot of births in the form realm or the formless
realm, but he only has to come back to this realm one more time. This realm is
the lowest realm. This is the realm where we live in. Its called desire realm
because if you haveyouyour life is run by desire for food and sex. Thats the
way the first Dalai Lama
[student: But you say its not the human realm.]
Humans live in the desire realm. But so do animals and hell-beings and [unclear]
and the lowest devas and the lowest pleasure beings live there also. But the
higher pleasure beings live in the form realm and the formless realm. So, this
realm has all six kinds of earth beings, but the other two realms only have one
kind of earth [unclear].
[student: And this is what you see when you perceive emptiness? You know?]
We werent talking about that. I dont know how we got on that. Oh, you only
have to come back here one more time. Its a matter of bad thoughts. Its a
matter of afflictions. Mental afflictions. You, you, you can only be born in this
realm if you have a pretty heavy dose of bad thoughts in yourAnd, as you

percas youre traveling along the path of habituation, you start to overcome
those bad thoughts, so that you dont have to take birth here againor only one
more time.
[student: Ive dont understood how you can achieve nirvana from the god
realms. Theyre so awful.]
Itsits pretty difficult.
[student: Well, why wouldnt it be more desirable than to be [unclear?]]
Im not sure youll have to take birth in the form realm. Ill have to check it out.
Its difficult from that realm to take ato reach nirvana. Its true, cause its so
pleasant.
[student: Whats an arya, again?]
Someone whos perceived emptiness directly.
[student: No, not an arhat, an arya.]
Arya has perceived emptiness directly. We didnt get to that one yet. Okay, so
thats the first and second results. Right? Now were on number three. Right?
Hes called a non-returner. He will not have to take another birth in the desire
realm. Thats number three.
[student: Im sorry. Can you just say]
Yeah. Non-returner not coming back again to this realm. The desire realm.
Yeah. Desire realm is supposed to be the best one for achieving enlightenment,
because its its its youre youre youre intelligentits not so much suffering
that you cant think straight, which is the problem with the hell realms. But its
also not so much pleasure that you cant think straight, which is the problem
with the higher realms. With the two higher realms. So, its supposed to be a
good mix of suffering and and and leisure. Of the time and the brains to to
thinkin this realm. In the In the hells, you have a good dose of suffering, but
[student: You mean in the human realm.]
Yeah, thisyeah.

[student: You said the desire realm.]

Well the human segment of the desire realm. Okay
[student: The middle part of theupper middle.]
[student: Whatd you start to say about the hell realm?]
They, they cant achieve any lams normally because theyits so much pain
that they cant think straight.
Their ability to think is impaired by their
tremendous pain. They cant think straight, although there is a debate about
whether the Buddha everthere is a story, there is a scripture that says that he
achieved bodhichitta in the hell realms, but the abhidharma says it wasnt quite
like that, but thats another story. So thats a non-returner; and then the fourth
result is is arhatis a foe destroyer; and the enemy is you bad thoughts and
their seeds. So, becoming an arhat, becoming a foe destroyer and reaching
nirvana are all the same.
[student: The enemy, the foe destroyer is your]
Yeah. When you say foe destroyerwho who is it youwhos the foe? The foe
is your bad thoughts and the seeds for those.
[student: Its bad thoughts and the seedsboth?]
Right, right.
[student: Not the actionsjust the thoughts.]
Right. But actually you cant collect the actionsyou cant collect karma per se if
you dont have those bad thoughts.
[student: What was that section on the the results of the three paths or the two
paths?]
This was it. I, I dont remember the question. Let me see
[student: Describe the three main parts of the method for reaching nirvana.]

Oh, that was something

[student: No. That was a different question.]
[student: Im sorry; Im sorry. Whats the foe destroyer and what are the three
results ofWhat are the foe destroyer and what are the three results of the
path?]
Yeah. Right, right. And thatWhat is a foe destroyer? Thats result number
four, and what are the three results of the path that lead up to it? That was you
knowstream enterer, once-returner, non-returner. Stream enterer, oncereturner, and non-returner.
[student: So, could the results of these paths [unclear] in Buddhahood too?]
Its not presented that way. Its notThis is mainly talking [unclear].
[student: Are we only ever gonna be one only ever apply these labels and
categorizes things this way when one is talking about low vehicle practitioners,
right?]
Mainly.
[student: Although bodhisattvas]
They apply to bodhisattvas too.
[student: They do.]
Yeah.
[student: So how do you know what]
I dont think its necessarily track specific. You know what I mean. Thats, Ive
never seen a, its not, it is presented in its called {genden neshew} the twenty
levthe twenty different divisions of practitioners. You study that maybe in
about two years. But it breaks it all down into, you know, arhatshinayana
arhats, mahayana arhats. You get, you get twenty different divisions actually.
Its called {genden neshew}.

[student: Cause usually you see these terms being used only in connections with
hinayana.]
Normally.
But its not, you know obviously you could have a [unclear]
bodhisattva. Okay. Back to the subject. {Gakja}
[student: Back to {gakja}.]
So, {gakja} is a non-existent thing. If it did exist, it would have to exist in the way
in an opposite way from the way all these things really do exist.
[student: Is that the rabbit with the]
deceptively. So, we have towe want to know how do the Svatantrikas claim
how we see deceptive reality. How do they explain how we see the things
around. Because according to them and according to us too, the {gakja} should
exist the opposite way if it existed. You got that? Thats a little tricky.
[student: So theyre saying we see it as its ultimate nature.]
[student: No.]
They say, study how you see the things around you, because if if the {gakja}
existed, if a self-existent thing existed, it should exist in the opposite way from
the way you really see things around you. By the way, what do the, what do the
higher Madhyamika people say? How do we, how do things exist according to
them?
[student: Nominally.]
Yeah. Nominally. {nyingde shaksa}, just from your perception. And thats what
you studied in your last course. Now youre gonna get confused cause youre
dropping down a school. Okay. [laughs] And its good. And that [unclear]
sharpened your knowledge [unclear].
[student: Not from just your perceptions. From your labelyou know your
labeling.]
Well, th, the word perceptions

[student: You make it sound like mind only.]

It is pretty much that. When they say label, they mean perceptions {nyingde
shaksa}. The word {da} name there means perceptionsconceptions, nother
story.
[student: I thought we perceive things as deceptive reality and thats the way in
which they do not exist. They do exist as ultimate reality, and therefore,]
No. Theres things thayou can say theyre dependent origination. Were
gonna study their dependent origination. How is it that they really do exist.
[student: Is that what were]
They have athey have two kinds of existence. One is their ultimate existence,
which is totally, totally different. And youll perceive that when you, when you
reach {tomlam}, but then they also have a lower level of existence, which is their
dependent origination. That they really have.
[student: And were not trying to refute that.]
Not at all.
[student: Oh, I thought thats what were trying]
If, if the {gakja} existed, it would be opposite of that.
everybody catch that?

Thats the point.

Did

[student: No.] [laughter]

[laughs]
[student: I got it up to the very end, and now Im lost.]
Things have two kinds of existence. Their ultimate existence and their deceptive
existence. But theyre both valid, and theyre both real.
[student: I dont understand how this table or our bodies have any ultimate
existence, except as a mindstream. Thats all that I have understood so far.]

We will get to it. First we have to study what they do have. I mean. Well study
the lower existence that they have first. Their lower existence, their lower level
of existence is what we can dependent origination or deceptive reality. You can
call it thatdeceptivetheir deceptive realitytheir apparent realitythe
reality that we see from day to day. Were gonna study that.
[student: Are you gonna explain that?]
Im gonna explain it right now. By the way, do you currently even perceive
that? Do you currently even understand how you see the things around you
much less emptiness. Forget this higher reality. The normal reality around
youDo you really understand whats going on? No. You dont even
understand its, its dependent origination. When you understand that, youre,
youre pretty high already. Youre like a [unclear].
[student: What do you mean you dont really understand whats going on?]
Ill talk about it. When you really understand how youre perceivingforget
emptiness, which you can only perceive in deep meditation anddirectly, okay.
Talking about this reality around you right now. You dont even know what
youre doingyou dont even know how your mind is making this up right
now or how your mind is establishing these things right now. You dont even
know that. Youre now even aware of what youre doing.
[student: Whasomebody will say the eye does thatthe light.]
Well talk about it. Were talking about it. Were gonna talk about it. Yeah?
[student: You go so far as to say the reason we call deceptive reality deceptive
reality is because of the {gakja}]
Stop right there. Stop right there. Cause. I knewwere gonna get to that, and
the Svatantrikas have their special idea about it. Theyjust to anticipate myself,
okay, they call it deceptive reality because the mind, which establishes it, is
deceptive. And, they have a differentthis is a different concept, [unclear] their
concept.
[student: In a sense, what I was leading to was that its the {gakja} which sort of
makes deceptive reality deceptive because far from believing that its the wrong
thing, we believe its the right thing.

Yeah. Different subject. Were getthats a long way down the road and thats
aits not quite like that, but its close. Yeah?
[student: So, if Im, Im trying to see the distinction between deceptive reality
and {gakja}.]
Good, good, good.
[student: What is that?]
No, thats fine. Deceptive reality is whats really happening, once your mind is, is
reallythe reality that your mind is actually seeing.
[student: So I see this vase. I see it as a vase. Thats deceptive reality?]
Thats, thats not a {gakja}. Why?
[student: Cause it has, it has dependent origination.]
It exists. {schechu} Why? Cause I see it, and Im not crazy. And thats the proof
of something existing in Buddhism. If you see it, and youre not sick or crazy or
hallucinating or drugged, that cant be the {gakja}.
[student: So what would be the {gakjak} aspect of this vase?]
Ah, well get to that.
[student: The way we think it is.]
No. Thats what Im gonna talk about right now. To discuss, to discuss the
{gakja} aspect of the vase, vase, you have to understand how it really does exist
to you. Because the {gakja} would be the opposite.
[student: Which is not its ultimate nature.]
Okay? So in a sense, emptiness is the absence of the {gakja}. The {gakja} is
something that would exist in, in a way that was the opposite of the way this
vase really does exist.

[student: I was thinking emptiness was the opposite of deceptive reality.]

No, no, no. Deceptive reality is fine. Deceptive reality and ultimate reality are
good friends. They both get along with each other, and they both exist.
Everything has both. No problem. Its deceptive, but its not non-existent.
[student: Deceptive reality and what are good friends?]
Ultimate reality.
[student: So the {gakja} is non-existent?]
Yeah. Forget it. Hes out of the picture. You knowdeceptive reality and
ultimate reality are two friends, and {gakja} aint got no reality at all. [laughs]
{Gakja} doesnt even exist. But theres something in your mind that takes this
vase to be self-existent, and we want to identify what thatwhats that like.
[student: The self-existence, which is deceptive reality.]
No, no, no. Self-existence dont exist.
[student: What do you mean by self-existence?]
Were gonna talk about it.
[student: Well lets talk about it.]
[laughter]
[student: Running in circles here.]
[student: So did you say deceptive reality means perceiving it as self-existent?]
No, no, no. Well talk about it. Im gonna talk about it right now.
[student: Let him talk.]
[laughter]
[student: Yeah, really, I mean were going in circles. [unclear] gonna go in

circles.]
[laughter]
I got you warmed up for it. Say {lo}.
[students: {lo}]
{Numehla}
[students: {Numehla}
{Nahway}
[students: {nahway}]
{Lahnkey}
[students: {lahnkey}]
{Shaksahm}
[students: {shaksahm}]
This is how things exist around you. The lower level of reality. The what we call
deceptive reality. If its more comfortable, call it conventional reality. This is
how things exist around you. All right? {Lo} means mind. {Lo} means mind. By
the way, were indont forget, were in svatantrika. {Nu} means hurt.
[student: Hurt?]
Hurt.
[student: h-u-r-t?]
Yeah. Hurt. {Meh} means not. So, whats a {lo-nu-meh}?
[student: Painless mind.]
[laughs] Youd like that. It means unimpaired mindunimpaired state of mind.

A state of mind, which is not messed up by drugs or illness orAlso, a mind can
be temporarily messed up by outside factorsinner factors are illness, drugs,
alcohol, anger
[student: [unclear]]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then outer factors are likein Tibetan they say when
youre rowing in a boat across a lake, and it looks like the trees are moving on
the shore, but its you..yyoureWhatd ya call it? Your perspective is
changing, but itbut youyou knowpart ah your mind can be fooled
sometimes into thinking that the trees are moving.
[student: When youre on the subway, the next train is leavin, and you think
youre mov]
YeahYeahYeahThats a very good example. Same thing.
[student: [unclear]]
YeahYeahWere talking about a mind thats not impaired by those kind of
inner or outer factors.
[student: So an outer factor would be like an optical illusion?]
YeahYeahNot messed up by any outer affectthing that would affect it.
[student: Which one are you referring to?]
{Nu-meh} {Nu-meh} means a mind literally a mind which is not hurt. Meaning a
mind which is not impaired by either an inner factor such as drugs, illness, or a
strong emotion or an outer factor such as, you know, the perspective of the of
where you are [unclear]. {Lo-nu-me-lam-no-wah} {No-wah} means appears.
[student: {La} to that mind?]
Yeah.
[student: Which one?]
[student: {La} means to?]

{La} means to t-o. {No-wah} means appear. {Wang} you know. Whats
{wang} mean?
[student: Empowerment?]
Yeah. Empowerment. But here it means power. Literally {wong} means
power. Okay? {Wong-key} means by the power. {Shaktsam} {Shak}
means establish as existingestablished as existing and {tsam} means just.
What they say is thatth the Svatantrikas, I mean, its a pretty nice system, of
course. They way thisthisthese flowers exist, because two conditions are
present. A. They are appearing to me. B. I, what should we say, I establish them
with my mind. I
[student: Posit [unclear]]
Posit is pretty good.
[student: Perceive]
Perceive is a little tough.
[student: [unclear]]
Ill give you an example. And, this is important. This is a classical example. This
is actuallythit helps. They say you have to take the example of a magic
show. A magic showa magician putting on a show. And, in India, if youve
ever been there, theres thisits calledits called a {shing-dew} in Tibetan; but
its a little stick like that. And the guyifif its a real, you know, a traditional
magician, hehe throws the stick on the ground, and he makes a spell. He says
some holy words or something, and then you see an elephant and some cows
You see aa horseand all thats there is a stick. But, because of his spell, you
you see a horse.
[student: [unclear]]
[laughs]
But I mean, they used to do this sort of thing. You knowit can work. Ive seen
similar things. I havent seen that exactly, but Ive seen very similar things in

India. I mean, theyre very good at magicians. They can do a spellthey say
some magic words, and they have some kind of a powder or somethingand
they throw the stick on the ground, and theres the horse.
[student: And you saw a horse?]
I didnt see exactly that, but I saw something similar. So
[student: So bees what?]
Its like this. Its a kind of magic. Ive seen them use this thing. I mean, I didnt
see a horse running around. But, they say that two conditions have to be
present for that magic spell to work. The
[student: You talking about B now Michael?]
Whats B?
[student: In order for the flowers to exist, first]
Oh, noInoIm not talking about that. Im trying to explain through a
metaphor, what they say. Basically, you have to have two thingsthe thing has
to be appearing, and you have to be perceiving it. How about if we say that?
[student: Okay.]
[student: WhWhat two things have to be present?]
The things has to be appearing to you, and you have to be perceiving it. Those
two conditions have to come together. It has to look like flowers, and I have to
see it as flowers. What would be the opposite of that? What theyre saying is
that for those flowers to existfor those flowers to exist, they have to look like
flowers to me, they have to show a flower to me, and I have to see them as
flowers. I have to perceive them as flowers. What would be the opposite of
that? Whatwhy do they gomake such a big deal about both things being
present?
[student: Well, if theyre not there, and you dont see them as being there, thats
the opposite.]

Well, the opposite would be a lower kind of idea. What do normal people in the
world see? How do those flowers exist? If I walk out of the room, do those
flowers exist? According to svatantrika, no.
[student: Well, what about the Buddhas?]
Thats another story. But what Im saying is that the tree in the forest question
according to svatantrikas, if Im not perceiving it, it doesnt exist. And, and most
westerners, I mean, most normal people would say, the flowers are there, I
mean, when Im here or notwhether anyones perceiving them or not
whether theres any perception of them or notthe flowers are there.
[student: Nothing existsthere are no appearances without a perceiver.]
Say again?
[student: So, its not referring to you. Theyre not saying they dont exist]
To you.
[student: They dont exist at all.]
Well, its
[student: Not [unclear] but at all]
No, not, not that. They dont say that. If there were no-one to perceive themif
there were no-one perceiving them, they couldnt be established as a [unclear].
[student: by any of those people or for any of those people that werent there
perceiving it]
Yeah, well, meaning everybody.
[student: At allthere wouldnt beat allnobody]
[student: I thought this the position of theof the]
Mind only.

[student: Yeah. I thought this was the position of the]

Well letsII enjoy it if you ask me Well, whats the difference between them
and the {prasengykas}. Wewe have to think about it. We have to talk about
it. But, but theyre saying istwo things have to be presentflowers have to be
appearing as flowers, and I have to be seeing them as flowers.
[student: Why would you even need them to exist at all?]
Because, according toaccording to otheraccording to your normal instincts,
and according to your wrong state of mindyour {denzin}your, your
tendency to grasp things as self-existenttheres a part of your mind that exists
in your mind all the time, which truly believes that those flowers exist out there
independent of me perceiving them. You believe they exist over there. Theres
a part of your mind that, that truly believes that they are out there.
[student: But the first part of thesethis thing says that they are appearing to
me meaning they are there.]
Now, they say thisthey say something very interesting. They say they do
exist out there, but they dont exist out there on their own. Theres a difference.
They call it the unique way of being and the way of being. They have a way of
being on their own. Yeah. Those flowers have a way of being on their own. But
its, it is not unique. They dont exist out there on their own. They do exist out
there. Otherwise, they couldnt appear to you. They have some existence out
there. But its not out thereWhat? On their own.
[student: What does on their own]
[student: Independently.]
Independent of meproviding my half of seeing them.
[student: And so when you dont see them, they dont vanish. Theyre still
there.]
No. They have no existence. They disappear.
[student: So, every time you walk out of a room, the house disappears?]

Beyond their appearing to me.

[student: Thats crazy.]
No, well, they say well Buddha perceives that house. Or you perceive that house
with your memory.
[student: Oh, then its just mema function of memory.]
And other people [unclear] around the house see it too. You dont have to see
things directly. You can use your memory. You can perceive them with
deduction.
[student: So, is the presence [unclear]]
[student: Thats, thats valid for them?]
Yeah. By the way the Buddha perceives all that is around you.
[student: Is that valid for them? As a]
Yeah. They would say that.
[student: Perception.]
Yeah. Were studying thethe book were studying is the study of omniscience.
[student: So, so it seems very important to me the definition always qualify it
that theyif youreyou]
Yeah. What would be the opposite? I mean, would be the thing for the thing to
exist on its own. It does have its own existence. But thats not on its own. Its
not in and of itself. Its not out there by itself. Iit requires my participation for
it to exist. Thats the difference.
[student: What would you say would happen if, for instance, you woke up in the
middle of the nightyou were a little groggythe flowers were therethe light
was out, and you didnt perceive them as flowers; you perceived them as some
other object]

Beautiful question, beautiful question{lo-nu-me} {lo-nu-me}. The grogginess is

an internal factor.
[student: So, that would be an impairment.]
Good question.
[student: Okay]
Thats a good question.
[student: So the {madhyamika prasengyka} position says that the way in which
we perceive ththe nature of things dependent upon the way in which we
perceive it in labeling.]
Are we talking {svatantrika} or {prasengyka}?
[student: Well, ImIm asking the difference.]
Oh, I was afraid somebodyd start that. [laughs]
[student: It seems to me theyre the same; theyre supposed to be different.]
Yeah. Yeah, they are different. DontI dont wanna get into it too much, and
Rinpoche also told me dont confuse em [unclear] This is natural. Very similar
in many ways, but remember that in {prasengyka} the emphasis was on aa
suitable collection of parts and aand aa state of mind, which was also
suitablegiving it the name of that thing and the concept of that thing. Its a
little bit different. It was very useful, and you can see how all the lower schools
ideas of how things exist around you are very useful and how theyre leading up
to {prasengyka}.
Theyretheyre almost not liketechnically they are
contradictory, but theyre almost like flowing into {madhyamika}. You know,
they may be ultimately wrong, but they certainly are a nice way to get into the
{prasengyka} viewpoint. And, and, also, I think the {novachara}, the mind-only
school, is very, very interesting and very close to setting your mind into the
right mood of seeing the real position. But, but this isI, I like this position. The
other part of this, which Im not gonna write here, is [unclear] Thats the whole
thing, but I cant, I cant overload you. But, but the second part isit existsThe
first part isit, it exists through appearing to you, and your mindnot, not
affectedperceiving it. It exists through those two things. It does not exist

through some way of being out there on its own. Thats the second part of what
they say. What they are denying, we can say it, okay. It is not
[student: Is this thewould you say the translation for {la-nang-way-gi}?]
[student: No.]
[student: No.]
I mean, to put it into plain Englishsimple English. They say, it does exist out
there or else it couldnt fulfill the requirement of a appearing to you.
[student: Is that its dependent origination?]
Yeah. It, no, its dependent origination is that those two things are present. It,
its appearing to me as flowers, and Im seeing it as flowers. Those two
conditions have met. Therefore, there are flowers. But, it doesnt exist outon
its own, but it does exist out there.
[student: Dependence on those two things.]
Well, almost its the first thingexisting out thereis its appearing to me. Its
existing out there is part of that component of it appearing to me. Okay?
[laughs] If it didnt exist out there, there wouldnt be anything to appear to me
in the first half of theof the two components.
[student: Arent you then inferring that it does exist out there?]
It does exist out there. Im saying, it does exist out there according to
[student: [unclear] of your perception]
But not on its own. Nono.
[student: Can you explain likelike a wave and a radio receiver and the wave
that go to the radiothen its come up the]
Yeah, you can say that. The wave is a appearing to the...the receptor, and the
receptors have to be [unclear]. Yeah, I like that. Thats okay. Thats a nice
[unclear]. So, so what is it in their school for something to exist self-existently? If

it exists out there on its own, without depending on these two things happening
appearing to me and me seeing themanything that could exist the opposite
way of that would be what?
[student: the {gakja}]
Self-existent {gakja}. Thats {gakja}. TheIll say it again. [laughs] [laughter]
Cause, like two people got it. [laughs] The way it really does exist deceptively,
conventionally, is that it appears to me, and I see it. The way it doesnt exist, is
out there on its own. And, thats itsthats the {gakja}. Anything that could
exist out there on its own is a {gakja}thats a self-existent thing.
[student: Which is the way we see most things.]
Which is the way yourwere gonna get to that.
[student: Is there anything that is {gakja}?]
{Gakja} doesnt exist, but if it did exist, it would be a tissue that exists out there on
its own independent of my perceptions.
[student: What about emptiness?]
Thats a different thing. Emptiness is the absence of the {gakja}. Emptiness is the
fact that nothing exists out there on its own.
[student: But isnt there an existence of emptiness?]
Sure. The fact that nothing exists out there on its own isexists. The fact that
theres no elephant in this room exists.
[student: But thats not a {gakja}.]
Not at all.
[student: That negation is not]
Right, right.
[student: Speaking of material things, nothing exists then.]

Wooooooooooooo
[student: No. Everything exists.]
[laughter]
[student: Its sort of a definition on tautology in there, wherenot to waste
your time, anyway]
But, but the thing isso, you, you perceive those things around you. Thats fine.
Thats notwere not negating that. Were not negating that the thingthe
flower appears to you, and you see it. Thats fine. Thats the way the flower
existsconventionally. Okay? You see that. But, if I ask youby, by the way,
thats whats really goin on, but if I ask you whats going on, you would say,
Oh, yeah, the flowers out therethe flowers out there. Its not part of my eye
or part of my brain or whateits, its out there on its own.
[student: Are you saying its out there independent, not dependent on my
perceiving]
Yeah. On its own. Yeah independent of me. Its out there. It exists over there
independent of my perceptions. Independent of my mindindependent of my
mental images. It, it exists over thereout there on its own. Thats grasping to
self-existencethats ignorance. You dont always think that. You dont get up
in the morning and drink your coffee and sit there and look at the coffee and
think, Gee, the coffees out there on its own. But, its always assumed. Its
always in your mind. Its always in the back of your mind. So, I ask youoh.
So the state of mind, which is holding the coffee cup, is that wrong? Is there a
coffee cup?
[student: noyesyes]
But we didnt get there yet. [laughs] Okay.
[student: But Michael, lets say that theres a planet that nobodys discovered
yetthat nobody has any concept of. Does it exist by their definition?]
According to Buddhism, the definition of existenceand this is off the subject,
okay. You dont have to write this downis that which is perceived by a mind

that is not messed up. If any state of mind or any consciousness can be aware of
the thing, and any method, dont forgetdeductionthen the thing exists.
[student: Lets say nobodys even [unclear]]
The Buddha is omniscient.
[student: Oh, so]
The Buddha perceives all these things.
[student: Because theres, because theres so many Buddhas. Theyre always
there]
It doesnt take so many. It just takes one. [laughs]
[student: But theres at least one.]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[student: Whos always perceiving everything.]
Hes {namke}. Hes omniscient. Yeah. At every second hes perceiving
everythingpast, future, present. All, all universes he perceives at one moment.
Therefore, those things exist.
[student: But if you say that]
Even things which no other being is aware of
[student: If the coffee cup doesnt exist without me perceiving it, isnt that
veryIt sounds very selfish to me that nothing can exist that I cant see. It
seems like the opposite. That seems [unclear] asking.
No. All theyre saying is that the coffee cup exiyou are contributing to the
existence of the cup.
[student: But if, if everybody else was in the room and the coffee cup was here,
and I left, Im saying because I leave the coffee cup doesnt exist. That sounds]

[student: No, No, Nowe already] [laughter]

We didnt say that. The coffee cups still [unclear]. Someone is still seeing the
coffee cup.
[student: Oh, it doesnt have to be you.]
No, no, no.
[student: Anybody.]
No, no. Thats our question, because there are Buddhas in the universe
perceives all things that exist. Therefore, those things exist.
[student: What youre saying though, right]
Things that no man will ever see. You know. A little dirt cloud on the other
halside of Pluto. You know. Its there, because the Buddha perceives it.
[student: But what youre saying, if I understand it correctly, is that coffee cup
no longer exists for her, cause shes left the roomshes not thinking about it
shes not seeing it..]
No. She has a remembrance of it. She has athat, that is also a kind of {la-numey}. Her memory of it
[student: So once you perceive]
[student: So all our mental functions areI mean all our thinkings are part of it]
Dont think that direct perception is the only way to perceive something. Were
gonna study that a lotyou knowdeduction, belief of a, of a, of a authoritative
processThose are all ways to perceive something. So, I ask you againso Ill
go around the room and check.
[laughter]
So, [laughs]
[student: The answer is yes.]

[laughter]
I always start on the left. According to the svatantrikas, what are the two things
that have to be present for me to perceive those flowers?
[student: That I have to seperceive it and the one before that I blanked.]
And they have to appear to you.
[student: And they have to appear.]
Their job is to appear to me. My job is to see them. If both of us are doing our
job, they exist.
[student: Why do we have to say, We or I, wouldnt it be better is [unclear]]
Everybodyokaysomebody.
[student: Thats whats confusing everybody here.] [laughter]
Okay. So, Nina, if I, if Im being very insistent, and Im saying, There must be
two things there. It has to be appearing to me, and I have to be seeing it for it
to exist. Why am IWho am I trying to argue with? What do other people
think? What do people think who never heard about all this? If I say how does
that those flowers exist?
[student: Think theyre crazy.]
[laughs] [laughter]
They, they would say they exist, what
[student: What is your]
[student: They, they exist on their own.]
[student: Independently of you, on their own]
Yeah. Out there on their own. Okay?

[student: Self-existent.]
Yeah. Okay? Thats what were trying to deny. That is {gakja}. Anything that
could exist out there on its own is what we deny in this school.
[student: I guess a really strong {gakja} is growing here.
[laughter]
[student: My mind keeps saying, Well, theyre in the field; theyre growing.
Ive never seen them. Certainly theyre growing]
The Buddha sees them.
deduction. Youre

And you, and youre seeing them right now by

[student: At this point]

ByNo. Right now youre seeing by deduction, a field from which flowers,
these flowers came, which you deduced, probably correctly, that they are other
similar flowers growing there. And you have a, you have a mental picture of
this field with the flowers, and theres a little one-foot hole in there because
someone pulled out these flowers. Thats a perception. Thats fine.
[student: My point is that that past doesnt spring to reality just because I all of a
sudden deduced it at this moment in time.]
Yeah it does if your deduction is, is, is airtight, which its not. If it were airtight,
you, you could say that, that they really do exist. But, but you know, we dont
really know. Maybe this was gone, maybe they plowed it under. You know
maybe these were grown in a, in a greenhouse. Youre deduction is, is not
airtight. I mean, your perception right nowof the field from which these
flowers grew is, is probably slightly faulty because youre making soTheyre
so many
[student: Assumptions}
What you call it? Theyre so many variables in this picture that we cant really be
sure what, what, what the place looked like when we have our school from
[unclear]. But youbut we can be sure with airtight deduction that there was

some kind of earth that was watered and then some heat. You can deduce that
perfectly, correctly. There was those things. There was a place like that.
Wereand you are perceiving it, and it is appearing to you, and therefore it
exists.
[student: My point is I just deduced it at this moment in time, and so, but it just
didnt spring to reality and happen just because I deduced it at this moment in
time.]
[student: Get away from the I. Somebody has. The Buddha has.]
The person who grew the flowers did. Right? Then it existed. It exists.
[student: As long as anybody [unclear].]
Yeah. Thats a good point.
[student: What is the deduct?]
Deduct means, I hear the dog barking. I think that man must have walked
outside. I cant see the man, but the dogs are barking, so I can, I can think, Oh,
the dogs are barking, so the guy must be outside. There must be some guy
there. So, I am seeing that guy, but only by deduction. Im not seeing him with
my eyes. Im seeing him with my mind. And its dangerous. Deductions are
more dangerous than direct perception. [laughs] Cause maybe hes not there;
maybe something else happened. Maybe [unclear]
[student: come out with a gun and shoot somebody whos coming into your
park]
[student: You mean imagine? Deduction? Which is thinking]
Deduction means perceiving something because you have a good reason.
Perceiving something with your mind because you have a good reason. The
good reason is what? The dog is barking. And what do I see? I see some man
walking around
[student: Its an educated guess.]
[laughs]

Okayawful quietMaybe you need to take a break.

[laughter]
Take a break and then, and then wellAnd then what, what hes going to do is
what the book does is they, they give a common example. They give a
metaphor. Theyre gonna talk about a magic show and how the thing happens.
And thatll help, thatll help a lot for you to understand what its talking about. I
remember wha
[student: Everybody uses the magic show example.]
[student: Its a clear one.]
Yeah. Well it appears in a sutin a, in a, it comes from a scriptural source.
Thats why [unclear]. Different people explain it differently. Okay. Take a
break. Have some cookies.
[student: Have some non-existent cookies.]
[laughter]
[student: Do you say the old traditional magic, which probably no-ones seen in
a long time]
Yeah though this is real magic.
[student: [laughter] [unclear] we know of]
Okay. So thats, so they say there has to be two things going on. What are they?
[student: There has to be an audience.]
No. For the horse, for the horse, for the appearance of the horse to be there.
What has to be going on? For you to see a horse, what has to be goin?
[student: The spell?]
The wood has to appear as a horse, and you have to see it as a horse.

[student: So youre sayin the basis and the perceiv]

There has to be something appearing as a horse, and then there has to be a state
of mind that thinks it sees a horse.
[student: But that appearing, I thought you said that that existed, but]
Now, wait. Let me go one more step, and then ifsee if it answers what youre
saying. They say, if thethe svatantrikas, right, in their example, they say, if the
thing were not appearing as a horse, then what? [laughs]
[laughter]
[student: You wouldnt see it.]
What was it? Then everything could appear as a horse.
[student: What?]
If it didnt takeif it didnt take the piece of wood to, tIf the piece of wood
didnt have to be there, to appear as a horse, then, then youd, then you would
see horses everywhere where there wasnt any piece of wood also.
[student: Say that again.]
If seeing this horse didnt depend on this looking like a horse, then everything
you looked at would look like a horse to you. Therefore, they say the first
component is very necessary. Its necessary for the flowers to appear as flowers.
If me seeing flowers didnt depend on those flowers appearing as flowers, then
everything I looked at would seem to be flowers. So there must be something in
the object that looks like flowers. Thats what theyreI guess lets boil it down
to that. There has to be something out there that is appearing as a flower.
Otherwise everything would appear as a flower to you.
[student: Or everything could appear like a flower.]]
Should appear. Why not? If it didnt take any flowerness out there for a thing to
appear as a flower, then everything you look at would be a flower.

[student: So then you derive that something in there has to look like a flower for
it to look like a flower?]
Right. They say there must be something flower about it out there, or else
everything would appear like a flower.
[student: Assuming that you have an unimpaired that the perceiver has an
unimpaired consciousness.]
[student: And so it exists but not of its own]
Right. Right. What theyre sayingthey keep saying there have to be two
conditions going on [unclear]. There has to be something flower out there. If, if,
if somethingif I could see flowers without anything flowerish out there, then I
could see flowers everywhere. Who said [unclear]?
[student: Ariel]
Why? Why do you say?
[student: Well, because you may just mistake the object.]
Were talking {nu-mey}.
[student: Correct perceptions.]
[student: [unclear] consciousness]
[unclear] I want to make sure Ive got this right. Youre the first class I teach
about this.
[laughter]
SIDE 2
Yeah. Good. Are you all right? If it didntIf I didnt need the appearance of
the piece of wood to see a horseif there didnt have to be a stick there to
appear as a horse, everything I look at could appear as a horse.
[student: That example seems more confusing than not.]

Its a very tough example

[student: But its good though.]
Cause theres a lot of other things going on.
[student: Cause theres the magic.]
Theres no horse.
[student: Theres no horse.]
Right. Thats tough.
[student: So then its the first part of that, of that thing.]
[laughs] [laughter]
[student: The first part of that then appearing to me doesnt apply to that
situation, because there isnt a thing that it has horseness or whatever it, it but]
Right. Youre right.
[student: its only, its only what youve been, its only whats in your mind.]
[student: In that case your impaired mind.]
If its only whats in your mind, then he wouldnt need the stick. Hes made; hes
turning the stickhes doing a spell on your eyes, and then the stick is appearing
as a horse. But its not only depending onthere has to be a stick out there to
appear as a horse. Yeah, you can say that it should have been appearing as a
stick. Thats a little confusing. The point is that theres, theres, there is
something out there to appear as a
[student: But first it appears as a stick, and then he makes a spell, and then it
appears as a horse.]
Right, right. Okay? So. Suppose the second condition werent there. Whats the
second condition?

[student: You see that its a horse.]

Youre seeing. Yeah. Youre seeing it as a horse. What, well why well get into
later. If that werent there, then whats the problem?
[student: Then how would you know it was flowers?]
He says here
[student: How would anybody know it was flowers?]
[laughter]
What, what you need is the state of mind under a spell to see the horse. What if
the state of mind under a spell wasnt there? What would happen?
[student: Youd see a stick.]
Youd see a stick.
[student: In the state of mind]
What happens when somebody else walks up later who wasnt there when the
spell was cast? All these people are running away from this horse, and hes
saying, Well, whats goin on? Theres just a stick there. So, they say you need
the state of mind, which sees it also--which is under the spell.
[student: Excuse me. And how important is the stick in this, in this thing?]
The stick is fifty percent. The stick has to be appearing as a horse.
[student: It cant just be]
[student: poof theres a horse without a stick. Right?]
No. No. This is the concept of, of the, of emanation in magic--is that you need to
work with some thing, that you, you make the thingthere, this is just a
principle of all Indian magicthat you got to have a thing that you cast a spell
on everybody, and they see the thing as a horse. There must be some thing

out there. Otherwise, you cant cast a spell. What arewhatre they gonna see
as a horse?
[student: Yeah, but Michael, wasnt itwhats it, whats it]
This is the idea of {truku} of emanation. There has to be something to appear as
a thing. You know. We could all wish astryin to show herself as a beautiful
lady, and because she has some spellbut there has to be the wick of a witch
there to start
[student: But [unclear] just sit in meditation in a cave for enough years, you
create a {truku} without anything.]
No.
[student: Yeah, what about Milareypa?]
What are you talkwhat are you [laughs]
[laughter] [unclear]
Im not talkin about religious [unclear] {truku}; Im talking about when a person
can make himself appear as a bird, or a person can make himself appear as a fox.
Thatsthatsthere has to be a person to appear as a fox. So there has to be
some material that appears as the thing. So then we got three, three people
involved in this thing. Does the magician see the horse?
[student: No.]
[student: Yes, maybe.]
[unclear] He was there when the spell was cast.
[student: But he knows its not a horse.]
So he doesnt believe it. Now, now were gettin a very distinct thing. Okay?
Now were to the interesting part.
[student: He sees it but he doesnt believe it.]

Were talkin about three different people here.

Lets talk first about the
spectators, who were there when the spell was cast. Thats the first person we
want talk about. The people, who were there when the spell was cast. Do they
see a horse?
[student: Yes.]
Do they believe theres a horse there?
[student: Yes.]
Yeah. Okay. They believe the stick is turned into a horse. They believe theres a
horse there, and they see a horse there. Sound familiar?
[student: Yes.]
[student: So they wouldnt be able tothey wouldnt be able to have the horse
appear unless they believed it.]
[student: No.]
Thats not true, because the second person were gonna talk about is the
magician himself. Does he see a horse? Was he there when the spell was cast?
[student: He sees a horse, but he doesnt believe]
He sees it, but he knows theres no such thing there. Okay. Its an illusion. He
knows its an illusion. He cast the spell; he was there when the holy words were
spoken. Were gonna talk about, by the way, how thats suppose to be able to
work. [laughs] No, we will. Its the last subject of this classthe mantra. Its
actually mantra. The word mantra comes from those old days. He, he can
say some special words, and then everyone in the place will see a horse. How
can that happen? Were gonna talk about it. So, he, hes also heard the words,
and he also sees a horse. But he knows its not real. So now youve got two
kinds of peopleone is the spectators who were there when the spell was cast
they, they see a horse, and they believe the horse is there. Then you have the
magician. He was there when the spell was cast. He sees a horse, but he doesnt
believe its real. Now what about Joe Blow, who walks up ten minutes later after
the spell was cast, and he sees all this bigin India its greatYou see this big
ring of people, and you know whats going on. Theres a magician in the middle

of the, of the crowd, you know, and we always try to get in to see [unclear], and,
so you get in later, and you look down there, and hes going like thisand
theres a stupid little stick on the groundeverybodys goingyou know.
Thats, thats the third person. Does he see a horse?
[student: No.]
Does he believe in the horse?
[student: No.]
No. Okay. Now who do you think those three people correspond to?
[student: The spectators a regular sentient being. The magician is beings
whove perceived emptinessyeahwho intellectually understand emptiness?]
Well. Well talk about it. The, the, the first peopYoure right, are people who
have not perceived emptiness. The book doesnt say directly. Okay. But you
can, you can explain it either way. But, basically, someone who has no idea of
emptiness. He sees things as self-existent, and he believes they are. Im sorry,
the book does sayit does say {salsen kewa}person who has not perceived
emptiness directly. He sees it as self-existent, and he believes it is self-existent.
Hes like the person who is there when the spell is castthe spectator. Then, the
second one, the magician, isthe, the example they give in the book is someone
at the three last {bhumis}.
[student: [unclear] means ten?]
Thats the ninth, right?
[student: Eight to ten.]
Oh, that was inkind of {bodhichitta}. No, were just talking eight, nine, ten.
Okay. {Bhumis}
[student: When he said b-o-o-m-e-s?]
B-h-u-m-i.
[student: Oh, dear.]

[laughs]
[student: b-h-]
U-m-i. But dont worry about it. TheyAccording to the book, they see things
as self-existent, but they dont believe it. Thats not what I told you.
[student: Right.]
But this is, this is {svatantrika}. Im still
[student: Would you fall into that category, Michael?]
Im still researching what the {prasengykas} think. Huh?
[student: [unclear]]
{Svatantrikas.}
[student: Would we fall into that category?]
[student: What they said.]
{Prasengykas}
[student: Oh.]
Yeah. But I, I adjust it now. I mean, this is clearlythe book clearly says that, at
this point, that those people on that stage{bodhisattvas} on that last three
{bodhisattva} levels, see, but they dont believe itwhen they are not in
emptiness meditation.
[student: When theyre not]
This is when theyre walking around after theyre
[student: They dont have any [unclear]]
Were gonna talk about that. Im saying people on the last three {bhumis}, who

are not in direct perception of emptiness, see things as self-existent, but dont
believe it. They know theyre wrong.
[student: Michael. Can I ask you a question?]
Say one more time
[student: Yes, thank you.]
[student: Would we fall into that category?]
Probably not if you havent seen emptiness directly.
[phone rings]
[student: You must have seen emptiness directly then.]
Sure. This is very high leveljust, just before Buddhahood.
[student: Hello?]
Push the top, lefthand button.
[student: Hello? Hi.
[laughter]
Okay. So its those [unclear].
[student: So youreits someone who perceived emptiness in deep meditation
and comes out of it and knows that what theyre seeingthats the one who
cannot help himself]
Right. Right. Despite himself he sees [unclear] but he doesnt believe it. Hes
the? Hes the magicianmagician, he, he knows theres no horse there, but he
cant help it. He sees a horse.
[student: And the newcomer]
Now, how about the newcomer? What, what did I say last

[student: Not the Buddha. The Buddha sees the sticksees the stick and the
horse. See the way everything else]
Good, good. You know, I was wondering why is wasnt the Buddha, and thats
pretty good reason why no. Yeah. He sees the stick and the horse.
[student: And the Buddhas seeing it as a stick would not depend on them not
having been there]
So who doesnt see, who doesnt see either? Who, who is it that doesnt see
either? Who doesntIm sorry, who doesnt believe theres a horse and who
doesnt see a horse either. Who is the guy who came later? All he sees is a big
crowd of
[student: [unclear] emptiness meditation]
No. Exactly. Precisely. Its a person whos in the direct perception of emptiness.
And they say a non-Buddha whos in the direct perception of emptiness.
[student: Yeah]
A non-, a non-Buddha sentient beinga non-Buddha living being, whos
perceiving emptiness directly.
[student: But thats not even necessary because the Buddha doesnt have to go
into a state of meditation to perceive emptiness directly.]
Thats true. But they call it a state of meditation. [unclear] They are like the
spectator who came later. They dont see things as self-existent, and they dont
believe things are self-existent.
[student: So, [unclear] they are looking at the stick; they are perceiving actually
emptiness. Is that what youre saying? Its like perceiving emptiness [unclear].]
Well now were kinda; I dont know. I dont think you can, I dont think you can
stretch the metaphor
[student: I mean, is it like a parallel; it would be the same]

Well, I dont know; they dont go farther than that; they just want to compare
those three people to those three people. They dont talk about
[student: The person in the crowd who sees both the stick and the]
the deception thats going on. I believe, my, my feeling is that you could say
that the spell is our tendency to see things as self-existent maybe? What do you
think?
[student: Proceeds or something?]
It is {dongzin}. It is ignorance. It makes you think that somethings been, and
its not there. But, the perception is not ignorance. Its seeing a horse. But, thats
a, thats another
[student: a little different]
[student: Seeing a horse but then thetaking it one step further and believing
that youre really seeing a horse in two different things in this case. Right?]
So, well recap. Does the flois, is the vase with the flower what we deny exists?
No. Because it exit exeverything is okay. Its appearing as flowers, and Im
seeing it as flowers, and my mind is not messed up. Im not drunk; Im not
hallucinatingnormal state of mind; and those flowers are appearing to me;
therefore, the flowers exist. If the flowersany flower, which could exist out
there, on its own, without my participation, iswould be {gakja} because thats
the opposite of the way it really exists.
[student: Without anyone [unclear]]
Right. Okay. Okay. Okay? Thats, thats what they say the {gak}thats
what {gakja} is. {Gakja} means the thing we deny. So, how does it apply to
your real life? I, I say that whenever you have an emotion, which would cause
you to do something wrong, it is aimed at a {gakja}. It is directed at a thing that
doesnt even exist. And, and the proof of that is, you know, when someone
comes up to you and says, So-and-so is bad. Hes a bad person. And you say,
Well, hes, hes, I kinda like him. And then they say, No, no. Hes bad. Hes,
hes, his nature is bad. Then I say, Well, how could I like him. Could he, could
he, does he have a good nature and a bad nature at the same time, or am I not
see Normally, the person will say, Oh, you dont perceive the truth. Hes

really bad. And, you, you, you just havent seen what hes done to me. Thats,
thats ignorance, and, and its only that state of mind that believes itself that can
have an anger, because if you understood that hes what? Blank. Hes blank.
Hes a blank screen. If you understood that, then you cant get angry at him,
because you know whos projecting--who makes him bad. You are. Would you
want to shoot yourself in the toe, its okay. But, but dont shoot him. Its not his
fault; hes blank.
[student: So you can still get angry, you just have to change the focus of the
anger to yourself.]
Well, if youre gonna get anger, the only proper anger, which is called regret,
is sadnessthinking Well, why did I do that? You know.
[student: Youre pissed at yourself too]
Youre pissed in a way that you kindato be pissed would be seeing yourself as
self-existent in a way. Its just this kind of calm sadness about did II messed
up, therefore, Im having to see this thing, and by goodness, now that I know
understand BuddhismI, I, I absolutely will not respond in the normal way,
because thats exactly what would make me see him againwhat would force
me to see him again.
[student: Just going with, just going with what you define though as the
dependence of this thingyou have the two componentsthe thing out there
and you perceiving them with an unimpaired mindyou could have the person
out there; you could be perceiving them as badtwo components are there.
You can still have that anger, badness, whateverjust from the vase definition it
seems [unclear]]
[unclear] I know what youre saying. According to Svatantrika]
[student: Yeah, and youre perso, adding on all the other stuff outside this
definition]
Hes bad out thereno. I cantonce I admit my participation, I cant be angry.
I think.
[student: Well, you could, you could say, I perceive him as bad.
perception.

Its my

Which Ive, which Ive caused.

[student: Well the arent you adding on to the definition with thewhat the
cause of the definition is. Thats outside the definition.]
Whats making me see the flowers?
[student: Whats causing your perception.]
Of the flowers. Yeah. Thats why you have to throw in the {ovitara}. [laughs]
[laughter]
Which is accepted by the other schools. That part of the {ovitara} is accepted by
everybody. In athe same seed is creating that appearance, and its creating my
perception. The same karmic seed is creating both. Thats their main point. So,
{gakja}, the, the, the benefit of {gakja} is that you cant be angry anymore.
Because the thing youre angry atifwhat Im saying is very interestingIf
you can get anger, or if you can get desire, particularly to the point that you
would hurt somebody, to get away or to get somethingYoure focused on a
thing that doesnt even exist. Whatever you want or whatever you hate doesnt
even exist. And, thats the way that, that emptiness can help you. Not, not, its
not to believe that he doesnt exist or anything else. Obviously, he exists. The
Buddha doesnt say try to pretend that this asshole, excuse me, at work doesnt
exist. You can pretend that all you want, and hes still gonna be there the next
day. And thats obvious, so why, why knock your head out over ayou know,
this idea of emptiness that says he doesnt exist. Cause the next day when you
go to work, hes still gonna be there. You know. And thats not the point. Hes
blank; youre creyoure forced by your past deeds to see him as the way you
do. And, if you dont like it, then stop doing bad deeds. Dont, dont try to
dont try to hurt him.
[student: The way to identify the flowers is that it has a characteristic of being
about this large, and it has this pink color, and it doesnt wiggle a lot and maybe
its a perfume. And the way I perceive your boss is that hes about yea tall, and
hes a little overweight, and hes got this weird look on his face, and he keeps
yelling. Now what is it about him that doesnt exist?]
Any yellingness or any ugliness to me, which is not coming about through my

own perception. And thats exactly what Svatantrikas trying to say.

[student: Im sorry. I need you to say that again please.]
Theyre trying to say hes not independent of my perceptions of him.
[student: No, but, you said, you asserted that the flower exists, and weve
asserted that your boss exists.]
There, there is an existence of my boss out there, but it]
[student: Hes also yelling.]
Right, and hes yelling, but it cant exist without my participation.
[student: Well]
[student: So, if you werent there, he wouldnt be yelling.]
[laughter]
Not at me.
[laughter]
[student: This is potentially a ray illusinating, and I think theres a very slender
something here that were really illuminated on, I wish that you could pursue it,
because identify the flowers by characteristics that weits, its, you know the
sociologists call it a you know whatevera conception type of]
No. Right. No. Itsthats exactly how
[student: So, we identify your boss by his disagreeable behavior even though
Ive never met this person, I now understand that he makes everyone think hes
disagreeable]
No. There is no such person. Im just using the example. In fact, there is not
such person in, in this particularin my particular job, but, but, but anyway, Im
just saying

[student: The, the stick has an existence; the flower has an existence, and the
boss has an existence]
Oh, no. He looks angry, and I see him as angry. Thats fine. And, hes an angry
man. But, hes not really angry; hes a horse.
[laughter]
He appears to be a horse because of the spell, and I see him as a horse because of
the spell, but hes [unclear].
[student: [unclear] a stick again [unclear]]
Hes not really an angry man by himself.
[student: When he becomes a stick, what is he?]
Then I stop getting angry, and then I dont do any bad deeds, and then I reach
nirvana.
[student: And it doesnt matter what he is.]
[student: And he stops yelling?]
[student: Is the answer.]
No. He, he yells.
[student: But what about like {le-pay} on trouble with, its all, its all not [unclear]
keep saying hes blank. Hes not blank. There is something there. It may be
very subtle]
Absolutely. There is a redness of his face. There is a loud volumelouder than
normal. Okay?
[laughter]
But that its an angry manIt, it cant be that until I see it that way.
[student: Well, what is it that you have imputed to [unclear]

He could be singing a chorale, you know. If I had the karma to see it that way,
he would be.
[student: But dontIsnt there this concept of there being some sort of a
consensus]
In fact, what I just said, what I just said is, is how I can change reality. Its how I
can reach nirvana. If it werent the way I just described it, nirvana is impossible.
And in particular, secret Buddhism is impossible.
[student: That wouldnt be possible [unclear] if you, if you, you saw somebody
angry, rightbut it did not affect you, I mean like, your boss was yelwas
yelling at you, but it did not phase you, you know really, you really]
His Holiness gave a good example. He said, If you seea guy comes up with
two fruitsI read this in some article somewhere. He comes up with two fruits
and one is kinda moldy and one is really brightand, and he takes the bright
and clean one, and he gives you the moldy onehe what he said was something
like, You wouldnt really perceiveyou wouldnt really have any sense of
injustice if you didnt care about the fruit. You know what I meanif you
didntif you werent attached to theeating it, you might not even see the
difference.
[student: So then the relevance of the flowers]
[student: If its attachment]
[student: You would see the difference, but it wouldnt matter]
[student: Yeah, but, you may see somebody whos angry]
What Im saying is
[student: but its not gonna affect you]
if you, if you have a boss who screams at you, but it doesnt push your
buttons, thats your karma. You have the karma to see something a little bit
unpleasant, but you dont have the karma to, to have a very bad experience all
day.

[student: So, is that person, is that person a nasty person?]

Of course he is. A slightly nasty person.
[student: So, you say he exists because you see it though.]
[student: Can you tell me the difference between]
Sure.
[student: making a value judgment and]
No. I mean, if you wanna get deeper, if you wanna get deeper, even the fact that
hes there, which is not what I wanna get into right now, but even the fact that
he exists, even the fact that the redness and the loudness are theresee you go
down to each level.
[student: So is it true]
One is he being
[student: that objects other than sentient beings have this same]
Sure. Sure. This house, I mean, you can, you can think this is a very nasty area
or you can think its a great area, cause it has a dharma center here. Its
emptiness
[laughter]
[laughs]
[student: I need to hear one thing again. You said, Hes blank. Im forced by
my past deeds to see him this way. If I dont like it, then]
Be goodbecause you cannot change the current condition. Its a resultthats
a principle of Buddhism. You cannot change the result. You have to plant new
causes.
[student: So, youre good to avoid having this happen in the future.]

Right. Self-interested morality. But, but dont think that Buddhism ever
[unclear]. Buddhism doesnt say that once the sprout came out of the earth that
you can, you know, Get back down there.you knowGet back in
there.you know. Its ridiculous. Its, itswe will never happen. Once youre
suffering, its too lateto do anything. All you can do is work about the future.
And thats this big misconception that Buddhists, you know. If hes a good
Buddhist, and he meditates real good, you know, and then the next time
something [unclear] at him, he can stay calm or something like that. Its not the
point. I want a world where no one ever yells at me. So, I dont have to stay
calm about it. And it will come. Cause Im good.
[student: I have a question. How can you fight injustice, if you dont perceive
evil? Okay, if you see, you see]
Yeah. I have this. I have this. I have this.
[student: and you say, oh, hes all right, Im not gonna let him get to meso
he murdered six million people, hes a communistgo, or like [unclear]I
mean, if youre so neutral to, and you dont respond to anything with any anger,
how are you gonna fight anything?]
Thats what the idea of lower nirvana is. Theres a difference between that and
Buddhahood. Okay? So, in Buddhahoodthe point is that once you reach
nirvana, even if you wanted to suffer, you couldntokay? Whatever Lee Pins
or Hitlers there are in the universe, whatever they can do, remember [unclear].
They can never cause any suffering. Are you aware that they exist and that
theyre hurting other people, and that other people have the karma to have
Hitler kill them? Yes. And you fight against that, but you fight against it by
teaching himmorality.
[student: Now, you just cast Hitler as this evil character, and its all coming from
you. I mean, thats the way you]
No. No. The Buddha is aware of how sentient beings seeI read thistheres
this biography out in that days about Hitlers girlfriend who made movies, and
she loved him
[student: Lindy Rafichdahl]

Yeah. I mean, come on.

[student: Well, therere always a few]
[laughs]
No. The Buddha is never affected by the Hitlers of the universe. He cannot be
he cannot suffer. He perceives you perceiving them hurting you, yes. And hell
do whatever he can do that you dont have to have them hurt you anymore.
[student: But he sees them as being equal to you.]
[student: He still sees themif you couldnt discriminate between things that
were harmful]
I didnt say that.
[student: and things that werent]
I didnt say that. Theyll never harm you.
[student: But, if you talk about an angry man, that angry man is potentially
harmful. Just because you dont get angry back doesnt make him less angry.]
Oh. Should you, should you take steps to restrain a person who is harmful? Of
course. Thats a good deed.
[student: But, then you have to acknowledge that hes angry. That its not all
coming from yourDo you see what I mean? You have]
If, if you can perceive thatyou can perceive that hes hurting someone else,
yes, you have to do something.
[student: Or intends to hurt you.]
But how can you really prevent him from hurting someone else?
Its
[student: Kill him.]

This is the [unclear].

[laughter]
Now I tell you again, and Ill tell you many times before the five years are over,
and maybe after that. If I lie in a diamond negotiation, and the guy takes the
bait, and he sells it to me too cheap, what caused the profit?
[student: Something in your past lives.]
Yeah. Igood, good can never come from bad, period. You, you hear it a
thousand times, and one day it will dawn on you. You know. Its impossible
that a bad action would ever create any good result. Its impossible that a good
action can ever have a bad result.
[student: No. But the result]
So. If this angry man that you talk about is harming someone else, I had to of
come about through some harm that that person did. So, is, is me killing him
going to stop the harmto the other person? Is, is me killing that persondoes
that stop the source of the harm to the other person?
[student: No.]
[student: It postpones it.]
[student: No. Theyll have it again; theyll meet it again.]
Doesnt necessarily postpone it. It could just happen the next second anyway.
[student: Well then why did this story about the]
The, the ship captain. He killed him for his own benefitfor that guys
[student: Right. Well, that, thats the other question too in the same thing.
Wouldnt it prevent them from accumulating that karma?
[student: If hes got the karma to kill that many people, it was just being
postponed.]

[student: Then youre just puttin it off, huh?]

No. They had the karma to have the Buddha kill the man before they died
because of him.
[student: Yeah, but the guy who was killed]
[laughs]
[laughter]
He had the karma to be killed by the man.
[student: They were saved.]
[student: Going back to the example [unclear].]
[student: You can always, I mean, thats sort of a]
No. Its the truth, and again, its one of those things [unclear].
[student: You can say if I ran out there and grabbed a child who was running
around out in the streetyou might say, Well, you didnt save that child. It was
that childs karma not to get run over.]
In fact, it must be. It can never be anything else. Yes.
[student: So then what is the]
Theif you say theres any otherif you say theres any otherwell, why does
medicine work?
[student: Well, if it wasnt you, it would have been someone else.]
Why does medicine work? Who was it? Somebody in this roomtheir uncle
was killed by a dentist.
[student: [unclear]]

No. I meanhe got too much of the stuff, and he died on the chair. Now the
why does medicine work for some people and kill other people? You, you want
a self-existent goodness in the metaphor. Its not, its not true.
[student: So how do we determine then that helping someone is of benefit? You
know, if we see this person whos gonna go kill that person, we go to intervene,
and we could]
[student: Your motivation is]
[student: [unclear] by that person; therefore, why should I intervene?]
[student: Well, because were accumulating virtue for ourselves.]
Mainlyyeah.
[student: Well, that doesnt sound very]
It sounds selfish. Well, Im sorry. I, I knowpeople have said that, but thats the
way it works. You, you must help other people.
[student: For your own benefit.]
It, in fact, its only gonnain fact, the main benefit is for you. This my Lamaif
you want to know what Rinpoche would say at this pointhed say, Look, the
helping is obviously a factor in the person being saved. You know, your, your
presence and your making an effort is obviously contributing to the persons
being saved. Its not the main cause why the person was savedbecause some
people you help get hurt, get hurt anyway, but some people you help get help.
Therefore, its not your helping thats the main cause for them getting help.
Because if it were, every time you help somebody, it will come out good. It is a
factor certainly. It contributes obviously. And, if you didnt do it, it wouldnt
happen.
[student: And so in terms of helping them, were not really helping them to
benefit them, were helping them to benefit ourselves.]
[student: But were dedicating it.]
Well, the result is that it benefits you.

[student: But thats, that essentially then is]

What is the motivation? The motivation is thisI, I should help themthe main
reason is that I can become a Buddha, cause then I can really help people.
Because then I can read their minds; I can teach them exactly what they need. I
can appear any way, any time, without any effort, exactly the way they need.
[student: You still cant change their karma.]
No. You can by, you can teach them
[student: To change their future karma.]
Yeah.
[student: Yeah, but will they be actually learning it or will it just be their karma
to see you, and, and respond favorably? I mean thats]
Theyre not contradictory.
[student: So then, when you see, when you see the boss, whos the jerk,
[unclear] use your word. But when you see the boss whos the jerk, okay]
Well, if you ever met this person, you wouldnt say that.
[student: And you dont respond negatively, you know, if you dont get
angry yourself in return, is that free will takin advantage of what youve learned,
or is that just inevitable, youve got the karma to see this angry boss, but
simultaneously have the karma not to be angry, or is it both of those things at
the same time?]
You, you have the karma that the teachings affect you to the point where you do
the intelligent thing at that moment.
[student: So, it, it could have gone either way. It depends on whether you utilize
the teaching that you]
Well, thats what the Dalai Lama says.

[student: Well, free will does come in.]

[laughs]
[student: Well, he said something about Sadam Hussein also.]
Where does the free will come from?
[student: Karma.]
Yeah.
[student: He said Sadam Hussein was probably a bad man, but his heart went
out to him because we supplied him with all those arms. What were we doing?
What were we thinking?]
[student: Did he say thaabortionhe cant understand people killingI mean
having abortionHowd we understand that?]
I dont
[student: Under certain circumstances.]
I dont think thatsI dont even think under certain circumstances. Frankly, I
dont think so. Ive never seen that in any magazines
[student: So, so he talks about aborI dont know if youve read the artiDid
you read the article, Michael?]
Yeah.
[student: It talksit sounds like from what hefrom what I readtalks about
abortion [unclear].]
[student: This is why I have a problem with this free will concept and karma,
you know, because ultimately the free will is, is [unclear] karma.]
Well study it. The abhidharmists say that there is a will [unclear].
[student: Then not, not everything is the result of karma.]

[student: So therefore, we got problems here.]

[student: [unclear] or not or be purified or not]
I, Ill tell you, Ill tell you, Ill tell you just one thing, and then well stop, cause I
dont like to run over. Your, your problem in conceptualizing it is, is hitting
exactly to the point of self-existence. You are, its, its, its insofar as you still have
a tendency to think things are self-existence, existent, you are having a problem
with this idea. And, I just say that. I dont, you dont, I just say thatthe, the
thing thats bugging everybody about this ideain Tibetan they say, It strikes
onsooner or later it boils down to ignorance. Its a, its a misperception of, of
the real existence. Somewhere in therethe reason it seems to you to be a
whad they call ita paradoxis that, is that you still have some perception of
something there. Okay, all right.
[prayer: short mandala]
[prayer: dedication]
By the way, just a few announcements. I want to tell you when the last class will
be and then the final.
[student: Isnt it exactly six weeks after we started more or less?]
[student: Not really.]
[student: Hes gonna tell us.]
The thirteenth of December, which is two weeks from tonight. There will be no
class. Monday the thirteenth of December, therell be no class.

Course 2: Buddhist Refuge

Class Eight
Transcriber: ???
Proofread: May 2003
[prayer: short mandala]
[prayer: refuge]
Okay, does anybody, does anybody wanna ask a specific question they have
about it? Do you have some
[student: about the text]
[student: unclear]
It doesnt say that, you know, its not referring to that, its not referring to
someone who [unclear] Its not referring ta, I mean they dont emphasize, they,
the example you cant find, the example doesnt apply to everything going on
in the, in the show. You cant find just leave it with the, with the three states
of mind. Dont try to figure out what [unclear] you know, if it doesnt say he
probably didnt want us to worry about it. Theres an, there, therere other
schools to explain this example differently. [unclear] All he hes not, hes not
emphasizing that at all hes saying, after the spell is cast. its, thats whats
going on. He doesnt, he doesnt emphasize that I think what might, yeah,
you have a question?
[student M: yeah, I was gonna ask; the two bodhisattvas in the example, of the,
the last two types the magician and the spectator are both, in this case
bodhisattvas, right?]
[student M thats right]
I dont think tha ... the one whose the
[student F late-comer? . New-comer?
[student M Well the definition in the text describes that the those bodhisattvas
[unclear]]

Yeah the newcomer didnt, did he say bodhisattva?

[student M That a non-buddha, that a non-buddha]
Okay, just someone who has perceived emptiness directly, doesnt have to be a
bodhisattva. I dont see why it should have to be a bodhisattva [unclear] I dont
think it has to be a bodhisattva
[student F Well why should the second one be?]
[student M Well it distinguishes that the second one is so presumably ]
Well what I told Ariel was in my opinion its just over kill, he, he could have said
first to ten, but he said eighth to ten so you know its really
[student M: Well that just gets, actually even closer to it then in the four
divisions that we learned a couple of weeks ago the last two people in this.
Which of the four divisions do each of those last two reside upon?]
One to ten
[student M Ah, no, no! not the {{bumis}}, the four divisions]
Oh, it doesnt apply because what Im telling you is that, the person who comes
later is any any {arya}, after following
[student M both of them are an {arya} , two and, and three, the, the magician and
the spectator have to be {aryas} because the definition says, between periods of
realizing emptiness directly for the second]
The magician, the [unclear] and the other person
[student M theyre both {aryas}, thats a given but Im saying, what
distinguishing between the two? Along the lines of the four levels that we
learned?]
No, it doesnt apply to the four levels
[student F the late comer, the magician ..]

I mean
[student M it has to apply to the four levels because ]
[student F it does
[student M level two is an {arya}, so they both have to at least be level two]
But they dont have to be {bodhisattvas}!
[student F2 but its not clear [unclear]]
[student M all right, well it says {bodhisattvas} specifically in the text]
As one example
[student M right but if they were {bodhisattvas}]
They were {bodhisattvas}
[student M then, which of the ]

Second and third.

[student M Second, second and third respectively.]
Not necessarily
[student M not necessarily ]
No. Second or third in that state of med in the state of meditation? Or second
or third outside that state of meditation? Hows that?
Mmmm [many talking at once] [student F one is not in correct perception
[student M It makes it sound like, that the, the magician Okay - is the one, who
is on the second level; has sees emptiness directly; but while not in mediation
perceiving the emptiness, still sees things as self existent but doesnt believe it
that way, whereas the third example]

All right thats why I didnt publish this thing, I didnt publish this thing, its
probably incorrect on that point probably the third person also the third kind
of bodhisattva also sees things as self existent but doesnt believe it.
[student M so what is it, ]
[student F the newcomer arriving ]
[student M what, what is it that distinguishes between ]
Ah, Im still working on it. One thing I can tell you co, correc exact you
know
[student F3 Wait a minute, if hes in the state of mediation on emptiness, he
doesnt see anything so its not even ]
Let me answer his question because he, you, were at a different place what
distinguishes the last three from the first seven is apparently NOT that, what I
said that, that ah, that they dont, that things dont appear to them as self existent
- its that they dont, theyve gotten to such a high level in seeing emptiness
but theyve abandoned the bad part - obstacles but they havent
abandoned the obstacles to omniscience.
[student M which means that they still ]
That they still appear to them as [unclear]
[student M in two different ways ]
but very, very ,very subtly thats, thats, thats the only distinction. But I am
still studying it, still not sure, and thats why I dont
[student M Now does that correlate to the, the three examples [unclear] the last
two? It seems to me that it did]
Yeah, I mean it helps, to know those examples but it would really not talking
necessarily about bodhisattvas
[student M well, right.]

[student F are we going to be marked off, [unclear] on the test]

Not at all because I think the author is trying to overkill, think hes trying to say

[student M Keep your mind on the bodhisattva ball]

Much less, someone on the first seven levels, even somebody on the eight, ninth
and tenth levels [unclear]
[student F By excluding him [unclear] ]
Yeah, I dont think its restricted to the last three levels, and thats what confused
you. And it also confused you because I introduced it wrongly, the first time.
The Prasangika have a different idea about last two levels [unclear] and I, you
know I went to play my thousand pages of, ah, text on disk, and ah still not
very clear to me, so Im still working at it. Thats why I didnt publish that page.
[student M Well its nice to know that ]
Ive gotten different explanations from different people and Im not satisfied
with it so Im gonna study it. And apparently Prasangika and {Svatantrikas}
disagree about it.
[student M Well, thank you for not marking me wrong on the homework and
test, even though, apparently I didnt get it quite correct.]
All right, any other, ah yeah, but
[student F The, reading, um, ]
Yeah I dont expect you to digest all the reading, its good that you read it, and,
and its important that you read it, but if you have any questions, tell me
[student F well, I mean I just dont, I just dont understand like the basic]
Yeah, I dont think you
[student F Ideas, that are, that are in this paragraph and the basic ideas that are

well, I dont know if I can even formulate questions, I mean, if you could explain
that paragraph which is [cut] page three of our reading, last weeks reading.]
[student: Top?]
Well, Ill talk, Ill talk about a couple things here
[student Top one ]
Um in this school what makes things deceptive reality is partly that they
are perceived by a deceptive state of mind. They emphasize not so much that
theres a discrepancy between the way things appears and the way the thing is
is what we have been calling deceptive.
[student] right
But they say that state of mind is is not what that state of mind is not
grasping to them as being self-existent, but its infected by that, by grasping to
self-existence, I call it colored.
[student] right
But they say that state of mind is is not what that state of mind is not
grasping to them as being self existent but its infected by the, by grasping to self
existence, I call it colored it, its ah, its like a glass and its seeing everything
as rose colored I mean its got sun glasses on, sunglasses are self, grasping to
self existence but the eyes, theres nothing wrong with the eyes the eyes
see flowers, the eyes see the lamp, thats all correct, theres no problem with that.
Theres some other thing in the back of your mind when you look at the lamp
thats wrong, and thats going on at the same time as the correct state of mind
which is saying this is a lamp. That state of mind is called deceptive. So you
think of deceptive mind
[student] [unclear] just says this is a lamp
Yeah
[student Grasping]
Yeah, it, it happens to be infected by grasping and it, its always colored by

grasping but it itself is, is ah not is not the grasping to self-existence.

[student] But its still more than mere appearance]
Yeah an, a, and and thats I think one key, an, and Ariel and I were, were
talking about in the car, we were reading the parts that I chalked out I didnt
want to give you twenty pages but but the it was an interesting thing in
the book it said, Why do we say that both conditions have to be present? Why
does something have to be coming from that side although not uniquely,
although not by itself. And why is it that something has to come from my side?
Why, why are both things necessary? And the book says you, [laughing] you
can help me if I dont get it straight, ah, it has to be, something has to be
appearing to me from, from that side. It has to have a way of existing.

[student] right]
Of its own, although not a unique way of existing.
[student] is that where they say there has to be substance but then th?]
There has to be something appearing to me.
[student yeah]
Because if there werent ahhh,
[student] Then you wouldnt be in deceptive reality ]
[student you would be self existent]
[laughing]
[student] Would be something to
[student] youd be mind-only school
now dont [unclear]
[student] thats the other

Yeah, if it were only from my side, and if I said, pink elephant and it exists! If I
believed in pink elephants, and if I made up the word pink elephant, and I had
an imagination, I had a fantasy of pink elephants; that would be enough for
them to exist. If we didnt require the participation of the thing from its side,
then anything I chose to dream up would exist. So there must be something out
there for the, we, a [unclear] a fact, an existence it has to be showing something
to me, to, for me to give the name. If it didnt depend on my side, and this is the
important one in Svantantrika. if that thing could exist on its own, without my
participation, then a person who doesnt know what a lamp is and who
doesnt know the word lamp and doesnt have any concept of lamp the
minute he looked at that, hed say, Oh, thats a lamp. That thing itself would
suggest lamp to everybody. Whether or not they were familiar with a lamp or
not, whether or not they knew the name, whether or not they were able to
discriminate this as a lamp. You know Eskimos see seventeen kinds of white,
seventeen shades of white in the snow, they have seventeen different words for
different kinds of snow which you cant distinguish. If, if the snow didnt require
my participation from my side, to be what it is, then in the minute I walked to
Alaska, you know Im walked down the plane, Id say, oh, thats type number
fifteen! You know, because it would be appearing to me as type number fifteen
without my having to name it, or discriminate it, or distinguish it.
[student and that, but is that the grasping or the grasping, is it, ]
No, no no both of these are perf, are fine.
[student fine]
No problem with that. Otherwise we couldnt live in the world. We couldnt say
this is this, this is that. The deceptive state of mind in this school, is establishing
relative reality. Its fine, its fine. But they say if youre gonna tell me, that that
thing has some existence on its own without my participation, well, then, then
you get the seventeen types of snow, but
[student F OK, but then it [unclear]
Then it would suggest itself to everyone in the same way.
[student Right]

If, if just by appearing, it could exist if it didnt require my participation in

finding out the things I, are not non [unclear] you know, delineating it.
[student okay]
Thats what self existence means to them. And thats very important. Self
existence means to them the lower schools, and most people think that things a
lamp by itself. And they think, thats why you get into trouble at work. I mean,
thats why the angry man is, and you swear, you feel great when other people
confirm your opinion of the guy. You say, you say, hes really bad and they
say, yeah, hes bad, Ive seen that too. [laughing] You get really upset when
you say, well he seems like a nice guy to me. And you say, well, you just
havent seen him when hes bad. [laughing] [unclear] you dont know whats
going on, you didnt see what he said to me. You know ah, thats, thats the
root of problems. so thats {gak-ja}. {Gak-ja} is a, a lamp that could be a lamp
without me knowing it was a lamp. I think that helps clear it up a lot. It does in
my mind, cause I, I have trouble too, n youre the guinea pigs, I told you that
before, [laughing] second time I explain this it [laughs] pretty clear. [laughing]
third time its Okay, yeah.
[student] um, what is the flower bringing that makes it possible for me to
perceive it instead of my just saying, oh! Flower! So, but it brings something
to..]
Oh, yeah!
[student] and what is that?]
It is, um, its appearing to your own mind as, a, as a flower. And if you,
if you, if the existence of a flower did not depend on any objective reality from
the other side right? Then anything I could imagine would really exist. If it
were only coming from my side then anything I could imagine would really
exist.
[student] So then what is it? [unclear]
There must be something out there. But the normal mistake that people make
and the way you get up from the last school to, or from the lower schools to a
{svatantrika} is, is you graduate by saying, hey its not out there by itself the
way all of us take it to be. I mean, if I say, is there flowers over there? say,

yes! of course theres flowers over there. Would there be flowers if you left?
Yes of course thered be flowers over there. And theyre flowers out there?
Right! There are, are they, do they exist by themselves? Yes! They dont require
any from me. Theyre, theyre there! You hold that, you really do hold that
and thats the root of some problems.
[student] But my question is: ]
Yeah,
[laughing]
No, fine, I mean question. Cause if youre still confused I need something
[student] the question is: they bring something with their little purported selves
that make us able to perceive them. I mean they bring their half. Now what is
it, that they are bringing, please?]
You could say, you want this school?
[student] ah, [unclear]
No, ah, No, No theyre bringing [laughs] [laughing] no, theyre bringing a way,
theyre bringing an appearance of flowers. Okay, but not a unique appearance
of flowers. Not such a not such a concrete appearance of flowers that
anyone who walked in here would say, oh daisies, ah, white carnations ah,
even some African who didnt know English would, you know, if they had that
strong of an of an identity, ah, as, as, as you actually instinctively think they
do, then they would be flowers to everybody. Exactly the same way.
[student] [unclear] telling me but its not]
What they bring to you is, a, suggestion of flowers to the mind which has
been taught to discriminate flowers.
[student] maybe we could get ]
You wanted to have, youre asking me divorce it from my mind, what is it
brining to the situation? And I say you cant divorce it from you mind.

[student] I dont even know what the it it is thats bringing the [unclear] but
[laughs]
You want me to say, Oh the flowers bring their color and shape to the
situation and then you bring the name and the discrimination of it as flowers.
The point is that they cant be divorced. They have a way of being which they
are showing to you. But its not inherent in them, or unique to them. Its not so
unique that anyone that came in would, would see them the same way that you
do. And thats what this, thats
[student] They have a way that you can]
They are, they do exist - out there
[student] wha, I dont wanna take up everybodys time
[unclear] I wanna clear it because I felt the, the ah, uncertainty, and I had the
uncertainty, and went and studied it.
[student] Youre just saying they have a way of existing ]
Have a way of being
[student] it would be ]
from their side. Yeah.
[student] Well, the, they perceive us, too, right?]
They have an appearance. No. [unclear] They are appearing to you, is what I am
saying. Its not that you were making them up. Thats what Im trying to say.
On one extreme its not that you are making them up, on the other extreme its
not that anyone who walked in here would recognize them to be exactly what
you would recognize them to be. So theres fifty-fifty theres something
coming from their side and something coming from your side otherwise they
cant be what they are and thats what, thats what they say. And they are
rejecting, primarily - lower schools, and all human beings who wouldnt, if you
said to the guy on the street the flowers exist over there, do they have their own
existence? Of course! If a guy walked in here who was from some other planet
and never seen flowers before; didnt know what a flower was; had no name for

a flower would he s, would there still flowers there? If you say yes, the you
have {gak-ja} What a
[student] do we, do we all bring the same ]
[student M If we say yes? theres something there which we designate as
flowers, they would say some, oh, interesting something Ive never seen
before.]
I dont think they would even see the, you see they might not even distinguish
those pieces of color from the wall [unclear]
[student M So then there are things in front of us right now that we havent seen
before because theyve come from other planets.]
[unclear] theres a white rectangle and theres some yellow [unclear]
[student M common! Theyre not, if theyre myopic and they see in three
dimensions maybe .. [laughing]
[student F [unclear] come back to your cultural anthropology example theyre
much easier cause it has to do with culturally determined perceptions like color
and distinguishing types of snow
Even color, even color
[student F Yeah, I know. But its easier than making up people from outer space.
Okay [laughing]
[student 1] What if, what if they, if you were psychic? If you, if you a, could see
something that was actually there but most people around you were not
perceptive enough to see it, youre not hallucinating it really is coming to you
but only you could perceive it, how
thats acceptable [unclear] thats acceptable
[student] But then you have to take that persons word for it that theyre not
well then they, I dont say that they can communicate with you, but [unclear]

but that [unclear]

Yeah, actually you know youre not allowed to talk about those things normally
in Buddhism for that reason because theres no way to prove it to somebody,
they dont know, theres no way to prove youre not lying you know .
Theres no way to communicate it to someone else So they, they discourage
you, you know they say if a monk can perform miracles but he shouldnt do it
very much because it, it wont help other people Its, its not really any
benefit to the persons mind, he might have a short period or phase because
this something amazing happened then he has to go back to his normal state of
mind. Education is better.
[student] [laughs] keep you in school that way [laughs]
[student] lets say that you, that you believe this, then how does that help you,
um, get rid of your, [unclear]?
I think, this is a, in my opinion, this is not very clear oftentimes you know I
mean, when I discovered ah, what Tsongkapa is saying you know, when I
finally understood what hes trying to say, ah, I could see how it related to not
getting angry to the guy at work [unclear] I think thats, thats the way.
Absolutely. You just realize that that its partly coming from you. Even in
this school, that you are participating that without you he wouldnt be an
angry man .thats your fault not his fault. You know, if youre gonna get
angry get, not angry but get regretful, get sad, that you did something that you,
that you are discriminating him in this way
[student] Okay but lets say that you, you can kinda re, Okay I think kinda
understand and accept the example of flowers are objects in an abstract logical
way but how does that help, when youre ah say somebody is getting
angry
right
[student] at me Im not particularly angry that I dont really enjoy this, that I
really do believe that they are inherently angry and that, and that it is really
happening how does how would I use this same argument in that and then
how would that help me get rid of

I uh, many times Ive explained it before and its and its, I, I hope that I dont
explain it so many times that you stop thinking about it someday but Ill say it
one more time. He, if he were inherently a bad person, or angry, ah if he were
inherently unpleasant - do you agree that theres people in the room, and it often
happens in an office environment, who are actually enjoying him being angry at
you? You see? I mean youve had this sick thought yourself we [laughs]
all do. You know? I mean, youre not quite sorry that hes mad. [laughing]
[unclear] yelling at the lady you dont like so much, you know its not an evil
thought but its a bad thought. And it must be a common thought, its actually
thought number, ah, [laughing]
[student] thought number [laughs]
nine ... ah, eight
[student] anger, er
ah, no its bad deed number. lemme see, oh, Im sorry number nine. Its
actually, the, n, the, its, its, its actually in the top ten bad deeds and its precisely
that. And so we must have it, it must, out of the eighty-four thousand bad
thoughts you can have its, its in the top ten.
[student] Eighty-four thousand, why, you counted them?
And they had, and Buddha [laughing] So, ah, [laughs] so what I mean is, its, its
among, its apparently very inherent in human nature to not be that upset when
someone else is having a problem.
[student] right
Um, and even to take a little bit of plea, its weird you know, Ive been in work
situations where my, my supervisor would rather see something screw up to
take the pleasure out of it, out of the, the subordinates screwing up; than, than
worry about the [laughs] money [laughs] being lost by the screw up, you know
its weird! Its like a kind of illness, you know? Ahhh, then thats, thats, so what
Im saying is in one room theres one man who is yelling at you hes
unpleasant to you, and hes pleasant to the other person one thing - cannot
be both. Were gonna talk about, thats the subject tonight actually one object,
cannot be both. Cannot be good and bad at the same time. Its impossible.

[student] but why cant, why cant we carry like, he, hes certainly correctly
deceptive- reality wise angry everybody can see hes angry. Its just that his
anger doesnt exist self-existent-ly. Wh, why is it that we suddenly have to drop
the same thing weve been talking about all night when it comes to a persons
anger? Sure the persons angry, every body can see the persons angry- it that
person angry self-existent-ly? No!
No, some people might not take it as angry. Im talking about him being good
or bad because hes angry, Im just [cut]
[student] Lets just say we have the term flowers, because theres these things
that appear to everybody and everybody recognizes them as flowers
I didnt say that
[student] do they exist self existent-ly?
I didnt say that
Well, the definition says, wh, when it appears to the mind [cut, many talking
at once]
[student] One at a time
[student] yes, but no-no, were talking about deceptive reality, Okay? Which
means that something that has flower-ness, or whatever the words you were
using, appears to ah, minds that are not drunk or what-have-you, the same
way. Okay?
[cut]
[student 2] try to discriminate flowers
and also why
If they know the name and the [unclear]
[student 4] [cut] one or the other? Why cant you [unclear] bodies made of
legs?

[student] but we cant call this an elephant over here, we call them flowers, wed
be crazy if we called them an elephant.
Right, because they have no suggestion of elephant.
[student] Thats right, so the, when the person is screaming at you, and theyre
turning red in the face - okay
Yeah,
[student] why does your example break down there?
I gue, I didnt say he wasnt angry I said some people see him as bad and some
people see him as good.
[student] no-no but that anger
[student 2] thats taking it a step further
[cut, many talking unclear] [student]
trying to say hes not angry

value judgment on the anger! Youre

[student 2] [cut] anger or bad its just theres, y, y when you talk about the
flower example youre distinguishing between a person you says ok they exist
out there and I dont, and
Do some people see them as weapons? For killing people?
[student 2] uh, unless they have an impaired mind I would think
[unclear] Not at all, you know, a, certain kinds of beings, if they walked in,
they would see these as weapons, dangerous weapons.
[student 2] ahhuh, now youre getting into the part thats like, I just accept that
as theory [laughing] Okay theres the theoretical part, but Im saying, ah, eh,
how do, yeh, ah how can we take this example which is, I mean
Well, Im trying to get there. Well, see, lemme finish and if you, if you think its,
if, if you, if at, if at any point I say something which is not correct, stop me.
Okay. Some people are enjoying him yelling at you. Some people think hes a

good man. And you at the same moment think hes a bad man. [phone ringing]
[student] Theres nothing
Dont answer that. [laughing] Did I say anything wrong?
[student] Yes. You, you, youre taking the example one step further, before we
go that far can we, can we stop the value judgment on the anger
No, I dont
[student] and lets discuss whether the anger exists or not.
No, no. Because hes asking me
[student 2] No, no really
How does it apply to your daily life, how will it help you remove your [unclear]
[student] well, youre saying it doesnt exist!
What?
[student] The anger.
I didnt say that.
[student] Sure! Sure! It doesnt exist because,
When did I say that?
[student] because youre perceiving it as anger and another person can
perceive it as being happy, so therefore it doesnt exist.
No I didnt say that. Oh yeah the anger is, is absent the anger is empty of
being either good or bad. I did say that. I did
[student] Sure! Sure! But its still ang thats not [unclear] youre talking about
the existence of the anger, youre saying the anger doesnt exist.

I didnt, I said the anger is blank, I didnt say the anger didnt exist.
[student] Well when you see somebody as angry, then theres two ways to see
them as angry; correctly and incorrectly.
Ah, I, you can say the man or the mans anger, I dont mind either one. Youre
judging the mans anger [unclear]
[student 2] [unclear] say the mans blank, youre [unclear] I mean, I took that
to mean hes not angry
[student] Thats right! Thats right!
Okay, I say, I dont mean that. I say the angry man is blank. Hows that?
[student 2] Okay, thats
Hes neither good nor bad.
[student 2] entirely different
If he were
[student 2] entirely different
[student 3] Okay but whats the analogous, ah, statement about the flowers
then? Because now Im, cause I heard your example about the man not being
good or bad for a long time, I mean, Im sorry but, you know now Im [cut]
[laughing] Now this one makes me think in a different way and Im trying to
apply that back to the, the angry man example and Im having difficulty making
that connection. You know
So you want to explain, do you want to talk about how the angry man is, is
blank as being a man or not? Or do you want to talk about it relating to your,
removing your bad thought?
[student 3] Both. I want to find out how that connection cause I feel like one
end is this and the other end is that, nd Im tryin to find out where they meet in
the middle.

Okay. Since, since all the how many five hea, how many heaps are there?
[student] How many five heaps are there? [laughing]
Why dont they just say two heaps? Why dont they just say mental heap or
physical heap?
[laughing]
[student] Because they are apparently so important that ..
Why are two, why are two so important that they get status to be their own
heap? Out of forty-four or fifty-two or whatever
[unclear] [student] The emotion [unclear]
Why would it talk about the object of those? Which is, which is something you
feel good about or something you feel bad about? Someone who irritates you,
or someone who makes you happy?
[student] Well, okay, but how does that tie to the fir, because it seems that
youre talking about this perception at a much subtler level.
Well, what Im tryin to say is I am! But Ive never done that before, Ive
always stayed on the simple, ahhh
[student] right! And thats what Im tryin to get
level object. Yeah. Will it help you as What will help you in your life? And
what truly will help you in your life, and what you should apply tomorrow or
even tonight, is that the man is not bad, or the man is not, ah, something painful
- by nature. Hes, he has no nature. Because of being painful or pleasant because
if he, if he did he would be equally painful to those fellow employees of you,
who see him as quite pleasant at the moment, who get pleasure out of what he is
saying to you at that moment. Therefore in that level, on that level and in that
sense, hes empty of either quality because he cant have both qualities at once
because no one thing can be bad and good at the same time. Period.
[student] Why cant they? Why

Give me one. Well, lemme finish with her first. Lemme finish with her. So on
that level of discussion, Okay? We can get into his eyebrows, too, later. Okay?
[student] His what?
Eyebrows. And then down to the atoms in his eyes, and things like that. You
know we can do that, but on that lev thats the practical level at which is will
benefit you. Ah, now where, assuming that, ev everything else is, is correct so
far, that he is blank that he has no nature of being inherently painful or else
your fellow employees would take him as painful; or pleasant, or else you would
find him pleasant, then then wheres it coming from? Why do you find him
painful?
[student] because
[student] its you
[student] your perception
Right, right
[student M wait a minute
[student] because of my karma
[student M cause of the rose colored glasses you were talkin about.
No.
[student M not cause of the eyeball
No.
[student M because of the glass
No, no.
[students] [unclear] isnt karma the glass?
[student M Make up your mind!
[student] have it directed at you instead of have it directed at
[student M You said yes the guy is angry, but no you shouldnt get upset about
it

[student] the eye

[student M Which is it? Wh, is, is his anger something that the eye would see
whether the glass was there or not?
Yeah.
[student M Or, Okay! Good. And then the glass is [laughing] prescribing the
relative value judgment goodness or badness to it
No I didnt say that.
[student M which shouldnt be there.
I didnt say that. The colored glass?
[student M The colored glass!
No, its whether hes self existent or not.
[student M Well, thats what were saying, whether his anger is self existent
right?
[student F No but thats different than saying is it self existent-ly good or bad.
[student M Michaels saying that we put the value judgment on it because we
believe the angers self existent, that everyone
I didnt say that.
[student F No
[student M Sure!
I didnt say that [unclear]
[student M Hes saying he really is angry
Did I ever say that anger is self-existent?

[students] no
[student M No, you said that our misperception to that it is self-existent is what
causes us to
[student F no, no he said [students] [cut] [unclear]
[student] anger [unclear]
I never denied that he was angry
[student] [unclear] hes a bad person
[student M Well, thats what I mean by the value judgment. That hes a bad
person.
Ok well, anyway who, whos forcing you to see him as, why, whos forcing it
to be painful for you? Whos forcing you to see it as painful?
[student] ah, the karma of my previous action.
Which were good or bad?
[student] Probably bad.
Yeah, if the pain was bad, then the karma was bad thats so simple. That it
[unclear] [cut] [many talking]
[student] What if I get, seem, angry, but you dont get upset?
[student M Yeah, you, hes saying you cant do that!
[student] What if that do see a person angry, I mean, I mean I could see
somebody, I could see a person getting angry at somebody, and I say, well, this
persons very angry
[student 2] Hes not talking about suffering, hes talking about not upset, like
you dont get angry
[student] Well then anger, you see the person angry at another person its not

affecting you though, like, the person is not, ah, ah is not [unclear]
[student] No, no were talking about cases where it does affect me directly
cause I asked how I can get rid of my emotion
[student] yeah, but it how simple [cut] [many talking]
[student] thats simple to understand
[student] an example where Im, Im feeling a bad emotion, and I asked him
to explain how I could not feel the bad emotion. So it, were talking, eh, you
know, to begin with were talking about an example of where I am feeling a bad
emotion
Oh! You know, youve gotta divide, you gotta divide. What Im saying is: the
pain, the painfulness to you if it were self existent I suppose you should get
angry about it, but since its not self existent, meaning that it comes from causes
and that its imputed on an otherwise blank person, by your karma then you
should do something about it. Can you prevent it from being painful once the
result has already come out?
[student] No.
[student] No
that contradicts all principles of causation accepted by science; accepted by
everyone in the universe; accepted by all farmers, you know
[student] say it again
no farmer expects that after the corn has grown already and it came out lousy
cause he didnt put enough fertilizer, that he can now run and put fertilizer on it
and itll suddenly change. Thats - what is a big misconception about Buddhist
teaching of people who say, if I understood his emptiness, right now he
would stop being unpleasant to me. - thats incorrect! The result has come out.
[student] Yeah, well what about, Michael, what I said before
[student] yeah
[student] excuse me
Its just ah, Its just trying to say well, you asked me to apply it to a situation

which will help you remove your conscience, and thats what Im saying, yeah
A relative to flowers over which you have no emotion, no feeling you cant get
desire about, you cant get angry about you cant be hurt by them [unclear]
[student] so, so
Yeah, irrelevant. Not talking about that, I mean, you, you asked me to, to give
you an example that would apply to your life.
[student] Well, what Im really asking you to do, and I guess we should, I would
just ask you later but what Im really trying to get you to do is to, this seems like
on a different level of, of emptiness [cut] [many talking]
It is, it is and Im, an I but it doesnt tell, but it doesnt precl I doesnt directly
help your, your life. And youre removing your suffering.
[student] this one doesnt
No, not directly
[student] Oh, Okay!
[lauging]
[student M Michael, you [cut] [unclear] [many talking]
spent many days, and most teachers do, I think, talking about the emptiness
of him. Whether or not hes even there. And thats a valid thing to discuss. But
its not gonna help you, I mean, so where do you go from there?
[student] so that doesnt, so there is no connection there, if you say [unclear]
Not directly, its, its good as an example
[student] yeah
then you apply it to your life. But, but most people, I think, if youve maybe
noticed that youve had teachings on emptiness many times, the person having
explained how a beautiful girl is really empty but it didnt help me for years.

You know [laughs] its a, [unclear], she looks great to me! [laughing] Okay,
[unclear] she has a different mode of being pretty than I thought she had.
[laughing] But it doesnt change anything. You know Alex {{Pre-zin}} wrote this
long thing about how the girl is made up of atoms, you know, and therefore I
shouldnt have any desire, I said, fine! But I look at the [laughing] [unclear]
maybe shes made of atoms, but Im concentrating on the girl! You know, it
doesnt help me. It doesnt help me stop my [unclear]
[student] .. I think [cut] youre saying
I think most teachings break down at that point, you know, you say well, okay
shes atoms, well what do I now, and they say, well shes empty; dont have
desire. [laughing] [cut]
[student] should see her as um, you know dissolving and rotting and
No thats, that is not her, an emptiness meditation, and its not
[student] No! Its not!
Its not a medit its not a medit [cut]
[student] gets rid of desire-ment
No it does not get rid of desire. It, its suppressed desire.
[student 2] I mean
It cannot get rid of desire. Thats why the definition {navara} said what?
[unclear] comes from the individual analysis
[students] the individual analysis
[student] one by one
[cut] [unclear]
[student] Right. [cut]
Doesnt say, coming from learning our little tricks to [cut]

[student] Yeah. Right. The trick. Yeah.

desire for them.
[student] So, does that mean that all of these little tricks that we learn are really
just sort of
Theyre very virtuous and theyre very holy. And we should learn them.
[student] yeah, we should try
[cut] [unclear]
because until you understand emptiness what are you gonna do? [laughing]
[cut] understand emptiness you use it. Shantideva didnt waste the first eight
chapters of this [unclear] but when he got to the ninth he told you what to do.
[student] So, so when you do get to the point of having this intellectual
understanding then what? Shift gears and leave those behind? And
No, you, you, in practice you end up using those, cause youre not so pure or
good or your understanding of emptiness is not so great that [unclear] [cut]
you know, [laughs] it doesnt work [laughing] youre not, youre not near,
thats why the path of habituation has so many divisions to it. Its getting better
and better at applying your emptiness understanding to your practice. Thats
why the {clay-tious} have like, I dont know, a hundred and twenty-eight .
Shades that youre getting rid of little bit, little bit, little bit, little bit, little bit, just
so you keep those other methods, those are called worldly methods. Theyre
called {tse ten di long} and this method is called the one [unclear] [cut]
[student] Michael?
[unclear]
[student] Okay, so back to the example I said the last time
Okay.
[student] if you had somebody like a Hitler or a {Haussan} or a {Li Pang}

Uhm, hmm
[student] now from our normal perception these people did tremendous
evils, so youre saying all these victims um, they just had bad karma?
Yeah.
[student]
And Hitlers blank?
You cant make any value judgment on
somebody that has done such massive destruction? Its like, oh, hes Okay, hes
a nice guy. You know?
[student] No
[student] his true nature
[cut] [unclear]
[student] I think
[student] true nature of evil, but everything he does isnt evil, you know,
youre saying that
I would say the opposite, you know, I have had people ask me that many times,
but I think that you should concentrate on the opposite thing, which is bad.
He, conventionally speaking; apparently speaking; which is the world that were
living in; hes hurting people. Now you can truly stop him, with love. You
know, if necessary, ah, the thing is called elimination, the practice is called
elimination, and, you do it. But, but, at that mo, when you do it youll nev,
youll you wont have any anger, no hatred I mean, what did the Dalai Lama
say about Saddam Hussein in the, the New York Times last February?
[student] He said he was a good guy [cut] [many talking] [laughing]
[student] except for against us instead of the Iranians or something like that

[student] no he said, he said, where are all the people who gave him the
weapons? They were [cut]
No, he said, my heart goes out to him - he was under certain conditions
[student] He said he may be, he may be a bad man, but my heart goes out to
him.
But anyway, I, Im not saying dont concentrate on it that way, concentrate

its your duty, a {bodhisattvas} duty to stop evil. If you see any kind of evil its
your duty, your absolute duty to stop it. To attempt to stop it
[student] But if youre
Ah but no, with no kind of anger or hatred.
[student] So the example you gave is a, Okay, if, if, a when you keep using
the boss, thats a very benign example because you know bosses
[students] No [cut] [laughing]
Its the, its the one place where I can collect the most bad karma quickly, in
my mind
[student M But, you have to be more clear on it, you can describing the boss,
and the, and the bosss anger in an all or nothing kind of situation; vis--vis your
reaction to it. Vis--vis your being upset by it. Okay? Youre making it sound
like there is no anger, Okay?
I didnt say that
[student 2] He is
[student M Yeah!
[student 3] He never said that!
[Many students] [cut]
[student F You keep saying that, but I perceive what Michaels saying differently
than you do [laughing]
Im saying kindly, but hes, hes acting violently; hes acting mad.
[student M Right!
And some people enjoy it, and some people, its painful.
[student M and, if I see that person acting that way toward me! Okay?
Right

[student M Youre making it sound like, the only way for me not to be angry by
that is to not see anger!
I didnt say that. I, I said precisely the opposite, and thats my dentist-drill
example. I say
[student M If he was truly angry then dut, dut, dut, dut, dut, like that. Right?
No, if anger was innately painful, everyone else
[student M Oooohhh! Okay!
would find it painful.
[student M Youve been saying if he truly was angry then everyone would say,
Yes! Hes angry! Look! I see hes angry, youre right!
Im, if I wanted to go to that level, thats true also- but Ive not, Ive never gone
to that level with you, I have no interest in going to that level with you. I want
you to not collect bad karam. Thats all.
[student] Jeffery Dahmer, Okay? I mean, maybe his mother likes him, but
[unclear] every victim, Im sure wasnt cause, no matter how pure their karma
was, to be killed by him!
Excuse me?
[student] how, how, it wasnt pleasant to be killed by him. [cut]
I would say it was definitely unpleasant.
[student] Right it was unpleasant by anyones [unclear]
Certainly by, unpleasant to them.
[student] Right. So I would, I would
and certainly maybe was pleasant to him.
[student] It was pleasant to him

The same event

[student] But all the victims, no matter what their karma was like, Im sure some
of the victims were nicer than others, and they all experienced it as unpleasant,
maybe
Their karma was totally equal. Whatever deed they did in the past to be killed
was totally equal. The same. They did the
[student] then how do we explain ?
however they were in this life you know, nice, bad, indifferent this is why
good people get hurt. This is why injustice occurs. This is the explanation for it.
[student] Wait a minute Michael, what about the Dalai Lama that had to get out
of Tibet? Does, you, are you trying to tell us that he did something bad that he
had to be out of his country?
In a, in a non-high level explanation, yes. In the highest level explanation, that he
is truly a Buddha; hes just trying to teach us something.
[student 2] And he is teaching us.
[student M and he could teach people better outside the country than he can
inside [laughs]
[student 3] reaching a lot of people
[student] Well, I agree with that, I think [laughing] [cut]
Frankly, its to say with certainty
[student] but
that you know, which one is true, is a lie. You know, you have to say its
quite possible {Avalokiteshvara} and hes trying to teach me something? Its
quite possible hes a normal man who got kicked out of his country. I dont
know. I really dont know. I can use logic to try to establish one or the other
and youll learn those methods, theyre learning them in New Jersey, right now.

[student] I think the [unclear] car accidents? How do you explain that?
but if you can say, from your, from your side, you know, Oh, hes
{Avalokiteshvara}; hes just trying to help us; hes trying to show us something;
you dont have any proof.
[student] Thats [unclear] a lot of people
No you dont have any proof, and thats why its, its sometimes, its personally
irritating when I meet people who, thats insisting to me that this is true and Im,
and they dont have any basis to say that.
[student]
[unclear]

They wear the robes and they have to be believed and honored

There are ways to establish logically he is {Avalokiteshvara} and that he is

showing us this [unclear]
[student] What about Michael
he cant give me those reasons, I want [laughing]
[student] what about the, but, what about the, Michael, the guy with that was
killed in a car accident [unclear]
[laughing]
or else youd be [laughs] [cut] [many talking] [laughing]
[student] how do you explain that?
but you feel better about the, about the [unclear] I mean about the [unclear],
about what we learned? I mean, is it more clear? I think, keep your mind on the
fact that if there wasnt anything going on from its side, then what?
[student] then, then anything
If it didnt require anything from its side, then anything that I could imagine
would exist. If it didnt require anything coming from the other side, then

anything I could imagine would exist. And if it didnt require anything from my
side, then what?
[student] ah, sorry, sleepy, ah
[student] then anybody would see it the same way.
Exactly the same way. It would be the same thing to a person example in the
book says, who doesnt even know the word for flower, or have any idea of the
concept of flower and thats the {svatantrika} way. Its not the highest
explanation. Whats interesting is, and we were talking about in the car,
although the explanation in this way, directly rejects the very lowest explanation,
that the thing exists out there on its own, its, its not totally inconsistent with the
highest explanation. The {Pabongka}. Tsongkapa says that. And so you gotta
cook that. Okay. All right. Were gonna talk, were gonna start, by the way,
that whole thing last week, was supposed to be the first fifteen minutes of the
class- and ah, I read it and said, this is gonna to take a whole class, so ah, actually
I pushed my period back to one class. And ah, [laughs] and we covered all that in
one class.
[student] Michael, are you gonna, ah, trea, trea, ah page five and six of the ah,
and seven? [unclear] go through or at least mention [unclear]
No Im not going to.
[student] thank you.
[student] Youre not?
No. Basically, you just have to understand that ah, for example to exist by
definition, is accepted by the {svatantrika}, lower {Madhyamika} , as something
that really exists. And the higher school, [unclear] look the same as being
suffering. But Im, and then you have to say, well what do they mean when they
say, exist by definition what do we mean by the same thing, exist by
definition and if, is it possible that were thinking the same thing about that
word and they just dont understand and I do, or, or do we really think different
things when we say that word and then maybe theyre not crazy after all. Thats
a whole nother subject.
[student] [cut] theres something that confused me down page three where
youre [unclear] paragraph ah where youre talking about the [unclear]
existent phenomena [unclear] uses the word pure there?

Yeah, pure means self-existent.

emptiness, that would mean

In, in, in {Madhyamika} in the study of

[student] opposite of the way

Yeah, right
[student] most people when they read this
Jessica[?]
[student] [unclear] Madhyamika?
Ahhhhh, hmmmmm .
[student] [unclear] one of that? On page one, of that, [unclear] third line
[unclear] three of basic knowledge
Where is says [unclear]
[student] of all things that have no real nature of arising
Were gonna talk about it.
[student] meaning that their arising? [unclear]
Right. Okay? Were gonna talk about it. Okay, tonight we start five different
arguments for emptiness. And its going to go into the next, ah
[student] Next, twenty. What are you talking about? [laughs]
Its going to go into the next week also. But I wanna get through, I only wanna
get through the first one tonight. [laughing]
[student] With us? Youll [unclear] hard time. [laughs] [laughing]
And its called {chik-du drel} All right. {chik} means one, {du} means many, and
{drel} means empty. Its a different word for empty. And were gonna talk
about that tonight. It basically means that if something were self-existent you

would have to be a self-existent single thing or self existent plural thing youd
have to be either self-existent-ly one, or self-existent-ly many. Take us all night,
if were lucky Okay? [laughs] All right?
[student] Single or plural?
Yeah, thats easy! I mean well talk about it. Im not gonna go into them, I just
want you to know the five names. Which is on your homework. Okay?
[student] Im just lost
You dont even have to know what they are you
[student] You mean the five arguments?
The names of the five arguments.
[student] What are these five arguments? [unclear]

This is a, Dorje, you know what it means what?

[student] Lord of stone.
Good. Diamond. And {sekma} means? Sliver.
[cut] [unclear]
Diamond, Diamond Cutter. When you perceive emptiness directly one of the
realizations you have, has to deal with how close it is physic, in a physical, that
the closest example in the world to emptiness, is a diamond. And ah, one of
the reasons for that is that every sliver of a piece of diamond, is pure diamond.
It, its totally the same as the whole piece of diamond. Any, any little shred,
shard? of diamond that you take off of the diamond is as pure a diamond as the
diamond.
[student] [unclear] granite?
Especially true of diamond.

[student M Would it be true of a, a piece of holographic film?

[laughing]
No, dont make fun; very holy; very important.
[student M Im not making fun!
[student] uncut diamond?
[unclear]
This reasoning involves, proving that things cant arise from themselves; cant
arise from something else; cant arise from both;
[student] From?
both, I can spell it, and cant arise without a cause. Four possibilities.
[student] Or something without a cause?
It cant arise from themselves; they cant arise from something other,
something else; they cant arise from both themselves and something else; and
they cant arise without a cause.
{yu} means what? you know?
[student] {yu}?
You need to exist. {Yu} means exist; {me} means not exist; {kye} means to
arise; and {gok} means to deny.
[student] {mu} means just not, though?
{me}
[student] I mean {me}
{me} means does not
[student] not

not exist actually. Different from is not

[student] Does the whole phrase mean not exist, or doest it, is it mean exist/not
exist?
Ahhh, well talk about it. Its denying that a thing could grow from
something which exists or something from, or from something which doesnt
exist.
[student] You mean inherently exist?
I dont know! didnt get there! Roughly; denying that a thing could grow
from a thing that exists or from a thing that doesnt exist. Or both or neither.
[laughing]
Four possibilities. [silence]
[student] You say, grow do you mean arise or like grow like from the ground
up?
Um, were talking, those reasons treat all changeable things all things with
causes.
[student] arise. Could be mental, could be physical
[student] thats a different [unclear]
Im sorry [unclear] [silence]
[student] some spelling is before g o g
Yeah, this part is the same.
[student] would [unclear] when you say naw-aw, aw-baw
ah, denying that things can grow, or arise, from things which exist; or things
which dont exist;
[student] and, and or both, or either, right?

Or [unclear]
The name of the reason doesnt say that. The name of the reason only says,
denying that things can arise from something which exists, or doesnt exist.
[silence]
[student] But hows that differ from number two, number two says things cant
arise from [unclear] and number three says that denying it can arise from da-da,
da-da, da-da
Ah, number two is what? Denying that things can arise from themselves. The,
the, number two is emphasizing whether its from themselves or from
something other than themselves. Number three is emphasizing whether
theyre growing from something which does exist, or something which doesnt
exist. And were not going to go into it, tonight. [unclear] We were just going to
try to cover number one, but I want you to know all five names.
Number four is denying {gok}, that things could grow. {Kye} or arise I should
say, through any of the four {shi}, possibilities {mu}
[student] Well thats the {mu-shi mu-che mun-sun}
Yeah. Oh, good! And what it means is, and you dont have to know that yet, is
that its denying that multiple results can come from multiple causes,
[student] multiple ?
results could come from multiple causes. Thats the first. Theres gonna be four,
right? [silence] Number two: denying that single results could come from
multiple causes. Number three what do you get?
[student] Both or neither; multiple results, multiple causes
right, right, number three is that multiple results could come from single causes.
And you [unclear] and the other would be what?
[student] no results coming from
no, thats not one [unclear] [silence]

[student] single results come from single, single right?

Yeah, yeah. These are, Ill write the English up here [silence]
The fifth one, were on {ten}, were on {ten} proof number five for emptiness
Okay? Im talking about this one.
[student] {ten} thats the name for all together please?
No thats the name for number all five, but I ran out of board down here By
the way I warn you to, I warn you of one thing; the meaning this time is, is very
difficult. But dont get frustrated, dont go crazy about it. If you could
understand everything on the first shot, um, youd be the first person in history.
Okay? Thats why most spend years on this thing. And its worth it, you know,
the pain is worth it. And if you dont have the pain youre not learning and
[student] its the karma [unclear]
No, it doesnt, thats the fact of it. Its holy, its deep, and its hard. And, and you
need it. And its very good for your mind to struggle with these things. Ye, ye,
after a while you find your mind becomes sharper after it. Better able to handle
long thoughts you know long difficult [laughs] ideas. Ah, youll get some better
ability. Ah, {ten-drel gyi-rikpa} Okay? {Ten-drel} means interdependent - its
what people call dependent origination.
[student] dependents origination?
Dependent origination.
[student] Same, same thing you mean? The same thing as interdependence you
mean, [unclear]
I call it interdependence for, for reasons which Ill show you some day.
[student] Okay.
{Gyi} means, of O - F and {rikpa} means reasoning ten-drel means
[unclear]. This is basically where you say things are not self existence, existent,
because they depend on other things. Thats the one youre probably most

familiar with. [silence] Its nick-name is {rik-pay gyalpo}. You should know that.
[cut] the nick-name for the last reason, the fifth one, the one about
dependence, is {rik-pay gyalpo}. - the nick-name for the last reason, the fifth
one, the one about dependence, is {rik-pay gyalpo}.
[student] King of reasoning?
Yeah, king of reasoning, {gyalpo} means king, this is the ultimate one this is the
most powerful one, all the other ones boil down to number five. Thats why
youve always heard number five. A lama doesnt have more than twenty-four
hours to go through this [laughs] many, so hell say, Im teaching number five.
[student] What does it mean, Im sorry [unclear]
{rik-pa, rik-pay} means of reasoning - and {gyalpo} means king, king of
reasons, the highest reason.
[student] So king means highest in this case.
Yeah, number one. The best one, most effective one tonights class is going to
run over a little bit I hope you [unclear]. Okay.
[student] are all these [unclear]
ah Pretty much they all [unclear] I, I just, Im gonna start, ah, the first, we will
run over like ten minutes like ten minutes, I think we can do it, Okay?
Ohhhkayyy whats the first reasoning? Ill go around the table lemme make
sure everyones [unclear] - Pam[?], whats number one? Youre sitting in a bad
seat. [unclear] [lauging] Whats number one? Whats reason number one? Or
did you even write it down?
[student] No, I didnt
Okay, Faye?
[student] something [unclear]
Whats the, just the name of it.
[student: Faye] {chik-du drel}

Which is?
[student: Faye] Which is one-many-empty, or something [unclear]
Yeah, I call it in the reading, ah, the emptiness of one or many so thats all you
have to know: The emptiness of one, or many. Thats the name of the first
reason. Okay Arnie, whats the name of the second reasoning?
[student: Arnie] {dorje sekma}.
Which means what?
[student: Arnie] Diamond sliver.
Okay, sliver of diamond and thats all you have to know.
[student] How do you spell that [unclear]?
Sliver, right? Its like liver with an S [laughing]. Means a little piece if you break
a little piece. By the way, theres a classical {sekma} if youre into this word is ah,
when the waves break onto the beach and these little {sekmas} come out of
wa, of sea water
[student] Froth
[bang, bang] [laughing] It hits the sand and these little droplets of spray come
out, those are called {sekma}
[student] I think [unclear]
[student] Can, Can Di, diamonds can be destroyed [unclear], somewhere I read
like all the diamonds or something can destroyed or somethin
Thats how you cut them, nothing in the, there is no thing in the universe which
harder than a diamond, period. It is almost an ultimate truth, in a sense.
Anyway ah, number three.
[student] ah, {yu-me kye-gok}

{Yu-me kye-gok}.
[student] {kye-gok}: Exist not, to arise, to deny. [laughing]
It means the denial - that things - which exist [student] are you saying the definition, Michael?
Im just giving you the name and thats all I want on your homework
[student] Oh, okay, Im sorry, could you repeat that
Perk up your ears. Its at the bottom of page three of your reading. The denial
that things - which exist - or do not exist which exist or do not exist could
arise. That was reason number?
[students] Three.
Okay. Number four.
[student] Denying, denial that things could arise through any of the four
possibilities?
Yes. Its on page four of your reading in the middle. It says the denial - that
things - could arise - through any of - the four possibilities. Ah, Vilma Number
five. Just the, just the name.
[student] Um, {ten-drel gyi-rikpa}
Right
[student] ah, things are not self existent, um, because they depend on other
things.
Yes, but just the name of the reasoning is what? Reasoning of interdependence.
Reasoning of interdependence. A.K.A.?
[student] King of reasoning.
[laughs] also known as: King of reasoning. You better, on your homework you

better call it up to ten minutes, king of reasoning.

[student] Interdependence
[student] Interdependence
Interdependence. Okay one more step and well take a break.
[student] what do you call the twelve links to tnterdependence?
Yeah.
[student] [unclear]
Well, ah, ah, well talk about it.
[student] [unclear]
Arising. Dependent arising or de, dependant arising is wrong. Period. Yeah,
cause it doesnt [unclear]
We can talk about it anyway. Okay. Now, youre getting to reasoning. I, I
havent done it with you. One day, I think in the second course from now the
fourth course maybe, well, well do a, a course on, on logic and Buddhist logic.
You need Buddhist logic to prove the spiritual things that you cant perceive with
your eyes and your ears. Otherwise it, otherwise according to {Dharmakirti}
you cant even take refuge. You cant, you have no basis on which to believe in
future or past lives, other than your nice instincts that you people have from
your past lives. With other, you have no basis for believing in that, without
understanding the logic. So, here you get your first dose. Okay? If, you try to
read the reading you get a, get a, dont get upset if you cant understand it.
[student] is this the
But {{adelpha}} doesnt mean dont try to break the code if you can.
[student] Michael is this the same thing that Rinpoche talked about in Jersey?
The same topic, no?
Very similar, Okay? So, when, when you, in Buddhism, you start out, theres
gonna be three parts to every logical statement. The first part is the subject;

what are we talking about. And I always start it with the word consider.
[student] Thats one of the three parts? The subject?
Yep. The subject is the first part of any Buddhist reasoning. Whatre we gonna
talk about? Thats where they slap their hands (slap) {{chima se chur-chin}}
When you start a debate with somebody you have to say, what are we talking
about Im talking about {{gyempa-sum}} whats {{gyempa-sum}}? The three
knowledges. Thats called, thats how you open every debate. The guy has to
know what you want to debate about. Well, lets debate about {{pom}} (slap)
{{pom ter-in-ter}} Okay. So the first thing is your subject. What are we talking
about?
Were talking about the three knowledges.
What are the three
knowledges? You know the last one, whats the ultimate knowledge?
[student] A wisdom.
Nah.
[student] Omniscience.
Omniscience. So number three you already, you know. Its called knowledge of
all things in your text, okay. Knowledge of all things. You have to learn these
two knowledges. You dont have it, yet, we didnt do it yet. Its the subject of
this book, actually. The {{abi-sa-mong-ka}} ah, the first word called, basic
knowledge. [unclear] Hmmm?
[student] Im just making a joke, a stupid joke.
Okay, basic knowledge means the perception of emptiness of course, you
knew that.
[student] Directly? Or
I was afraid youd ask me that, and my computer went down.
[laughs]

[laughing]

[student] Which one, up here? [laughing]

[laughs] The problem is you have, it its with the other one, I mean, you start to
depend on it [laughs].

[student] probably not.

I wont take a shot right now Im going to say perception of emptiness by a
{Hinayana} [unclear]
[student] How do you spell {Hinayana}?
[student] h-i-n-a
I shouldnt say emptiness please change that: selflessness - in this school they
dont call it [unclear]
[student] Can I say something?
Self-less-ness no-self you can say no-self I dont mind. When a, when a
person on the bottom two tracks the {Hinayana} the lower way [unclear]
self-less-ness thats, thats what basic knowledge means.
That is basic
knowledge.
[student] Now, to us, with {arhat} that word means emptiness?
No.
[student] Were not talking about emptiness then?
In this school [unclear]
[student] You said something wrong, you said the perception of emptiness
Yeah, I should not have said, I should have said; perception of selflessness.
[student] And its got nuttin to do with what we know of as the perception of
emptiness.
Well, similar but a different idea of what it means.
[student] oh its the same thing - thought of differently? Or its a different thing
entirely?
[laughing]

[student] its similar

Same thing misunderstood in a very [unclear] way.
[student] its not the same thing if it doesnt include phenomena.
Number two: path knowledge. If Im gonna give a break, Im gonna Path
knowledge is, what do you guess it is? Its its short of omniscience, its better
than Hinayana realizations.
[student] Howd it get there?
[student] Habituations?
No
[student] {Tonglong}
Close. The perception of emptiness by a, by a {bodhisattva}
[student] a {bodhisattva} {tonglong}
[student] foe destroyers get in here anywhere?
Theyre bodhisattva.
[student] No were not, not necessarily.
Not bodhisattva? Oh, no were not talking Foe Destroyer, no.
[student] Well one minute were in the Hinayana and then the next
[unclear] I didnt mention Foe Destroyer, and Im not talking about Foe
Destroyer
[cut] [unclear] they think that the selflessness [unclear]
[student] What is this
they think, but Im not going to talk about that
[student] What did you say path knowledge was again?

Ah perception of emptiness by a bodhisattva.

[student] And were talking about the direct perception here, right? Or
I dont want to bite on that, I dont wanna say Im just gonna leave it at that.
Those are the three knowledges, this is in fact the main subject of this book that
were studying. And all of the things that youre gonna learn in the first course
only relate to this [unclear] We havent even mentioned these two, youre not
gonna get into this [unclear]
[student] Which course?
In this six weeks you are, you are in the first, youre never gonna get out of the
first chapter. Youre never getting out of the first third of the first chapter.
[laughing] We spend ah, four years on the first [unclear]
[student] Which is the third part? The c
Its, its all subjects about c - and you can guess that [unclear] these are all
qualities that relate to omniscience.
[student] Were not gonna get outta the first two? Did you say?
Were not gonna get to the first two in this course.
[student] First two what? [unclear]
These two knowledges.
[student] Were not gonna get to those, were just gonna work on c in this
course.
Right. But, tonight were talking about, wh, why did I write this? Whats the
first part of this? Whats this the first part of?
[student] Logic.
[student] Reasoning?
Its the first part of the first reason. The reason that things, the reasoning that

proves that things are not self-existent because if they were [unclear] were
talking about the first reasoning
[student] singular or plural?
Were talking about the first reasoning,
[student] [unclear] reasoning?
the first proof of emptiness selflessness. The first proof of selflessness which is
called {{??}} One or many? Okay? Has this as its first of the three parts of {{??}}.
First we tell the guy, what are we gonna talk about. What am I gonna prove has
no self? The three knowledges! Thats my subject. I wanna prove emptiness
but first I gotta talk, I wanna talk about the emptiness of the flower, the
emptiness of the guy at work, no. We wanna talk about the emptiness of the
three knowledges. The emptiness of these three understandings - the emptiness
of these three levels.
[student] Would it be safe to say the first proof of selflessness, that is the
emptiness of one or many applied to
Right, right.
[student] these two things.
Right, right. A, a little bit, not [unclear] what Id rather say; the first proof of
emptiness takes as its subject these three knowledges.
[student] [unclear] about discussions? Or always?
Always. First proof of emptiness - takes as its - subject - and that could be
[unclear] the three knowledges. Thats what theyre debating about when
theyre proving emptiness [unclear]
[student] Always.
Obviously you apply it to other subjects later, after you understand it with
regard to one subject. Hopefully you will. But in the classical presentation of this
[unclear] they always take the three knowledges as what were talking about, as
about, as what we want to prove are empty. We could take, weve been taking

what? Tonight? What was the subject we tried to prove was empty?
[student] Flowers.
We had a disagreement about this; was I talking about anger? Was I talking
about the man; was I talking about his goodness or badness? This is a confusion
about what am I talking about; this is confusion about the subject. You know,
what am I trying to prove is empty? So, so whenever you use the first reasoning
you are always trying to prove that the three knowledges are empty. Because
thats the main subject of this book, actually.
[student] Can you clarify, can you clarify conceptual thinking? I thought we
were referring to ah, to a proof of emptiness and now were switching tracks
from focusing on emptiness to the three knowledges.
No. Were trying to prove emptiness of the three knowledges.
[student] So are all five of these different aspects of emptiness were proving?
Five different ways of looking at emptiness
Yeah, five different ways to prove the same thing. Basically but we
[student] Emptiness of five different things
Ah, mainly the point, the reason there are five different reasonings, is that they
prove emptiness in five different ways but incidentally they also take different
subjects that theyre trying to prove are empty. And the first one always takes
these three knowledges.
[student] prime example.
Always trying to prove the emptiness of these three.
[student] Could he take another subject then?
Sure, later. You see, first you apply it to this subject, ah, and then later you you
know obviously ah, you apply it, ah, especially to yourself. To John, or to Carol.
Okay take a break, I just wanted you to get the, this is the, I mean, this is the
easy part what are we debating about? Three knowledges,. Whatre we trying
to prove are empty? Three knowledges. As opposed to the flowers; as opposed

to the guy at work.

[student] Why, why the three knoweldges?
Because the sutra stars off from that point, the ancient, the ancient sutra starts off
with that and its Okay you really wanna know?
[students] Yeah! [laughing]
I dont want any blank looks, dont write anything she asked me a question
and this is just [unclear] {svatantrikas} school believes that [unclear] is you.
Okay. Lianna is Liannas the awareness of Liannas thoughts - ultimately. The
Is just dont wanna accept that. In a sense that makes sense, thats a driver,
thats the person listening to the thoughts in your mind its not a bad position.
So if you prove the emptiness of mind, you can prove the emptiness of you.
And thats the emptiness which youre supposed to save you - from suffering.
You see, the emptiness you perceive when you perceive emptiness directly for
the first time will always be the emptiness of yourself. And somehow thats very
important. And if you wanna know how its important um
[student] Start meditating
No, whi, talking, Im not, actually when you perceive emptiness the first time it
wont be about the guy at work you know what makes him appear bad, what
makes him appear good - itll be understanding what makes you appear in any
way to yourself which is a very deep subject, you know why do I appear to
myself today as depressed? [laughs] you know? why do I appear to myself
today as confused? You know this, this is ultimately what well say.
[student] Michael but you can only perceive emptiness in a deep state of
meditation youre not gonna see
Directly, directly
[student] Directly
You perceived it tonight ah, on many different levels intellectually and thats
very [unclear]
[student] so when you walk down the street then you think that people are

empty, I mean you, youre, ser, you know, like you have an image of this
people, like, this empty body that is covered by
Thats obviously not, ah
[student] emptiness
yeah, or I hope, if nothing else that no person ever comes out of these classes
and [laughs] ever says that to me [laughing] [cut]
[student] I dont think you have to worry about that in this neighborhood.
[cut] [student] Now I see why the brilliance of you picking this neighborhood
theres no chance that anyone will walk out of here and see these characters out
there and think theyre just empty [cut]
Number two its the characteristics we are asserting; a characteristic we claim
that the subject has; characteristic we are trying to - what?
[students] prove
Prove about the subject. Its the characteristic which are the person listening to
us doesnt see yet this is why were trying to prove it.
[student] Oh!
[student] Dont see it cause [unclear]
[student] Doest it have a title number three, Michael?
Yeah, this is the reason.
[student] Reason.
Theyre all, this is your first one, its like, in your initiation, okay? Hopefully
your life will be full of these in the future. This is what we debate about for
hours and hours and hours in the monastery. Every argument we use has to
have these three parts. And youll study the parts and its a whole thing. I
studied it for eighteen years and then I found out [laughs] what it was for
[laughs]
[student] the parts? You studied the parts? Or the parts of

The form of {samadhi} the form of logic

[student] oh the parts of logic.
Yeah. The parts of logic [unclear]. I really didnt understand until this year, what
[unclear]
[student] Is number three the third part of logical statement?
Yeah, thats the reason, number three is the reason. [unclear] make sure Im
covering the [unclear]. By the way, this could very well be on your quiz even if
it werent on your homework, which normally I wouldnt do. [laughing]
Now I asked [?] Because shes the a, the only foreign Buddhist here. [laughing]
Are the three knowledges, one or many? Are they one thing or many things?
Three knowledges. These three knowledges.
[student] ah ha.
Are they one thing? Or more than one thing?
[student] if you ah, if you saying three knowledge
Then?
[student] its more than one.
Okay. Good! [laughs][laughing] So they are do I say that they are not many?
Can I say that the three knowledges are not many?
[student] not logical
No! they are three! Theyre plural. Theyre more than one.
[student] does this continue the argument, you are now [unclear]
Well if I ask you, if I happen to ask you on some occasion, are the three
knowledges one or many, I hope youll say what she said, which was clearing,
well obviously there are many, theyre not one. Many means more than one,

okay? I could have said plural, but I didnt want to do that okay? Do they
exist?
[student] They are posited to exist, by the statement
No, do they exist? I mean I ask, do the three knowledges exist.
[student] Of course they do.
Of course they do. In this school, how could you prove that?
[student] How could you prove that they exist?
Yeah, if I say why do you think they exist
[student] Because they appear and we perceive them.
Good! Very, very right.
[student] They what?
Okay? Because they appear to me; because I perceive them. Theyre doing what
they have to do, and Im doing what I have to do. If they didnt appear to me
what?
[student] [unclear] appear to me
If they didnt have to appear to me - to be the three knowledges, I could make
up three knowledges - ifs its just from my side, I could say four knowledges, I
could say six knowledges. What if it didnt have to come from my side?
Then, then everybody who, who walked into a room where the three
knowledges were theyd say, Oh hey! Three knowledges! Path knowledge,
basic knowledge, knowledge of Buddha - hey! I know what those are. Even
people whove never heard of them. If they opened up this book in Tibetan and
they saw the Tibetan word theyd say, Hey! Three knowledges, yeah, yeah,
yeah, I know [unclear] - okay?
[student] So before I was a Buddhist the three knowledges did not appear to me,
at that time they did not exist. Now that Im a Buddhist and Ive discovered
them now they do exist, theyve come into existence.

You can confirm their existence. They, they exist, you can, you can establish
their existence because they appear to you and you named them.
[student] So I really could not confirm their non-existence before I was a
Buddhist, then.
Right
[student] But they did exist because an unimpaired mind perceived them before
you knew about them.
i.e. a Buddhas mind. At least. All right. Ah, well, I wish I could [unclear].
Anyway. Okay, so weve established a couple things: they really are many, Im
sorry, not really - they are many. And they do exist. But do they exist - really
-? Do they really exist?
[student] Whadya mean really?
Ah, now were close, nice! Nice! Nice! Nice! In this school, what do I mean when
I say really?
[student] Independently?
The way that most people think - they exist. Which is what?
[student] self existent.
Thats too simple, be more specific to this course
[student] {gak-ja} -ly [laughing]
Yeah, which means what? The opposite of what we just said. Which would be
that they exist from their own side. In their own unique way of being. Thats a
fancy way of saying, they exist out there I can see em, theyre there, it doesnt
depend on me those are flowers, those are half-ugly flowers, and those are
daisies, and those are orchids, and those are from they just are.
[student] So really means

Nope doesnt depend on me at all. Theyre out there, and they have their
unique identity, independent of me. Which is really what you think in the back
of your mind, which is really the way you color all things that you see. Is it
wrong that you see them as flowers? No. Is it uncolored? No. Is it tainted?
Yes. Is it impaired? No.
[student] Um, Michael? Ah, question Do you mean to say, is it wrong that
you see them as flowers?
Yeah, I mean; are they flowers there? Obviously they exist.
[student] Right.
Do they exist the way the back of my mind thinks? That they exist out there?
Independent of me? They dont exist that way. Is my perception of them as
flowers wrong? No. Thats what we call deceptive perception [unclear].
Acceptable. Do, but when I ask {Lucille}, How do they exist? And she thinks,
well, theyre just there. Thats unacceptable. Thats your, thats your rosecolors coming out. Thats your {{dong-din}} and your grasping self-existent,
asserting itself. It is not your deceptive mind, you deceptive mind is just saying
these are flowers. And the rot, the rotten little ah, [laughs] you know, hangeron-er [laughing] you know, the little ah, mental function in the back there called
ignorance is saying they exist out there on their own and everyone should see
them the way I do. And that causes problems. Conflicts. Ill go two more steps
and then Ill stop.
[student] Can I ask a question? You said number three was conclusion? In the
logical reasoning
So if I ask if you on the homework, [laughing] do they exist, really in this
school? What do they mean by really?
[student] Self-existent.
Too simple! Be more specific to this school.
[student] Independent of anything else.
Independent of those two requirements: that they are appearing and that Im
seeing them that way. Or you can simplify it to this, and Ill accept it if it

happened on your homework that they are, exist, out there on their own, with
their own unique identity independent of me that they could exist out there on
their own, with their own unique identity, independent of me, everyone should
see them the same way I do they are daisies and white carnations and
everyone should see them the way I do. Thats what really means. So, do the
three knowledges exist - really? Do they exist independently of my perception
of them?
[student] Nothing does.
Right, nothing. Thats, and thats, thats you know, thats {svatantrika}. Thats
the guts of {svatantrika}. You just [unclear] thats kinda nice. Okay.
[student] Michael, you just said there were three, three parts to [unclear]? this
is number four!
Ah, sometimes you can have four [laughing]. Im serious, Im not kidding the
fourth is optional. That number four is optional.
[student] [cut] four then?
That number four is a good example a good example you could say
supporting example? Hows that.
[student] Good supporting example [laughs]
By the way, one quality of the example is that the other person should, should
already have seen it and he agrees to it.
[student] What is it? A reflection?
Of an image in a mirror. Why is this a good example, Vilma take a shot.
[student] Why is this a good example
To prove that something doesnt really exist. Use your first reaction.
[student] of what? The mirror?
Yeah, the reflection

[student] Why, why is the reflection a good example of

For unreality.
[student] um, because - it doesnt have any, any substance reflection doesnt
have [unclear]
What happens when a baby is in front of a mirror?
[student] They think its real.
Yeah. Okay? Thats all. To a baby, I mean to, to someone who doesnt know
it looks like the person is inside the glass. The person inside the glass is not really
a person. But it looks like one. Its an example of something that looks real, but
isnt. Why? Still Ralph why do the flowers look real but are not? {Svatantrika}
answer please.
[student] Ah, they look real because we see them out there existing on their own
independent of our perception
But in truth
[student] but they arent real because they are dependent upon our
perception [unclear]
Okay now, that, that impression which is in the back of your mind all the time,
and you have it, you do have it - is that they are objectively out there
independent of you. And thats, thats the, baby in the mirror. It looks real, but
its not. Okay and thats all tonight.
[prayer: short mandala]
{Idam guru ratna mandalakam niryatayami}
[prayer: dedication]

931206-1

Course II, Level One, Class Nine

[prayer: short mandala]

[prayer: refuge]
Many people told me they were a little confused. [laughs] [laughing] Ill go over
what we did last week a little bit. I, I slowed down a lot, I have a tendency to be
on different subjects ah, but Im gonna spend another class [unclear] answers
um, youve got five proofs for emptiness, and the more ah, I was gonna go
through all five but I think well just stick to this one tonight, ah, and the way it
went was like this: considering the three knowledges, what are the three
knowledges, [unclear- someones name?] remember?
[student] Yeah theyre, ah, basic um, knowledge, path knowledge and
knowledge of all things.
Im sorry, what? [unclear- someones name?]
[student] basic I think is like, ah, knowledge that everybody has regular,
[unclear] {Hinayana} perception
Yeah, yeah, lower, ah, {Hinayana} perception.
[unclear]

That we dont see emptiness

[student] Okay path knowledge is [unclear] direct perception

{Mahayana} perception
[student] oh of emptiness
Of emptiness, [unclear] hasnt
[student] ah, the ah, knowl the way that were
omniscience omniscience Okay, for those three knowledges which happen
to be the main subject of this book, why did he take those [unclear] examples
there are many, you could say, [unclear] youve been studying, all, all youve
been studying up to now, these different subjects youve been studying are all
relate to omniscience. They are, actually objects of omniscience [unclear] thats

why youve been studying, thats why weve been jumping ground between
refuge [unclear] thats what, thats the theme between [unclear] those three
knowledges do not exist really because they dont exist really as one, and they
dont exist really as many. Ah, Nina, do they exist as many? In general, if you
dont say really, do they exist as many?
[student: Nina] you dont say really?
If you dont say really ah, do they exist? Do the three knowledges exist?
[student: Nina] Yeah
Okay. They do exist, right?
[student] But theyre not self-existent
Right. Okay, ah, Vilma, they exist as one or many?
[student: Vilma] That they exist as many.
Good. So we can say they exist as many really [unclear students name]
[student] Yeah, because they dont exist independent of someones perception.
Yeah, basically that, okay. Thosere per, thats perfect because they dont exist
independently of someones perception at that point. And thats, thats all you
need to know from last night. Okay? Not the, not Tibetan [laughs] Okay?
[student] Can I ask you a question?
Yeah
[student] What I didnt understand was how that, ties into the fact that they
dont exist really as one nor many
Okay, were gonna get to that
[student] I could see what the logic was between them
Very nice, thats what were reaching right now. Okay? Um, do you accept that

if something exists it must be either one or many? Has to be singular, or plural?

I mean, theres only two choices, either something is one, or something is many.
[student] What about fractions, I mean yes Im stupid but fractions
Ah, you could say fractions are one fraction, or you can say theyre multiples of
that, three sixteenths are plural I guess, if you take it from the sixteenths
theres three of them [laughs] okay?
[student] Actually theres sixteen of them of which were only focusing on three
I spose
So anyway, ah, if something exists, it has to be one or many. So if something is,
doesnt self-existently exist as one. And if it doesnt self-existently exist as
many, it cant be self existent! Alright? Thats the point. If something exists,
it has to be one, or plural. And if I can prove to you that something is neither
one, nor plural Ive just proven to you it doesnt exist. Yeah
[student] In order for it to really exist as one
Were gonna get there. This is the whole point tonight, and I dont wanna
anticipate it, you know? This is the whole thing tonight. Ah, so do not exist
really if they do not exist really as one, or really as many. Ah, a Buddhist has to
prove three things here: ah, and Im just giving you a little taste of what
[unclear]. [[the tape repeats here]] I mean, theres only two choices: either
something is one, or something is many.
[student] What about fractions, I mean yes Im stupid but fractions
Ah, you could say fractions are one fraction, or you can say theyre multiples of
that, three sixteenths are plural I guess, if you take it from the sixteenths
theres three of them [laughs] okay?
[student] Actually theres sixteen of them of which were only focusing on three
I spose
So anyway, ah, if something exists, it has to be one or many. So if something is,
doesnt self-existently exist as one. And if it doesnt self-existently exist as
many, it cant be self existent! Alright? Thats the point. If something exists,
it has to be one, or plural. And if I can prove to you that something is neither

one, nor plural Ive just proven to you it doesnt exist. Yeah
[student] In order for it to really exist as one
Were gonna get there. This is the whole point tonight, and I dont wanna
anticipate it, you know? This is the whole thing tonight. Ah, so do not exist
really if they do not exist really as one, or really as many. Ah, a Buddhist has to
prove three things here: ah, and Im just giving you a little taste of what you will
have maybe a year [[end tape repeat]] from now. Okay? We call, the three
elements have to be here, the three parts of a good reasoning, what are they?
Im not referring to one, two, three
[student] Subject, characteristic, and reason
Yeah, but Im referring now to three relationships have to hold. And this is not
on your, ah, homework, I just, I want you to know it. Three relationships have
to be true, if those three relationships come true, the proof is proof. And if any
one of thems not true the proof is not a proof.
[student] Three relationships have to exist between what?
Between these three parts, these three parts are what? [unclear]Subject, then
you can call this thing [unclear] the three relationships that have to be there, the
first one is very famous, its called {Buk-shuk-chuk-chung} you dont have to
know that. Its that reason is a quality of the subject. Reason, is a quality of the
subject, number three does connect to number one. What does that mean here?
[unclear]
[student] [unclear] number two?
Ah, no, reason is number three so in this case the reason is because its yellow.
So it has to be true that number one is number three, thats the first relationship,
it has to be true that the sun is
[student] Yellow
Yellow. Okay? Thats, if thats first relationships not true, obviously the whole
proof is not true. But I say to you, the suns not blue because its white, the suns
not blue because its purple, thats not a good argument because the reason I
gave you which is purple is not a quality of the sun.

[student] Could you rephrase what you just said before?

Yeah, this is the first relationship which is between one and three. What I give
you as the reason, which is yellow, has to be true about the subject, which is the
sun. If thats not true you can forget this proof.
{Bahk-chiy} is the Sanskrit - {chok trin} is Tibetan. But were not gonna, you
dont have to know that. The second relationship is as you, as you can state the
first relationship like this. Ah one is, thats relationship number one. The sun is
yellow. And the guy Im debating with, the person I am trying to prove this to,
does he accept that? Relationship? Has he already seen that relationship?
[students] yeah,
Yeah. If he doesnt accept that relationship the arguments, its, never got off the
ground.
[student] Youll never win it.
You know? He, he has to accept that relationship. Or else its a bad argument to
give him. It doesnt prove anything for him. And secondly it has to be true that
if this has to be true if something is yellow its not blue.
[student] What if its green and it has both yellow and blue?
We, ah, thats a common ah, its a, its a common question by Westerners about
this particular debate. Um, were talking the whole thing being one color. Were
not talking mixed colors, or patterns or anything like that. Were talking the
whole thing being one color, the whole thing is yellow then the whole thing
cannot be blue. Okay? If yellow, not blue. By the Way, when you study
Buddhist logic a lot, and after you get used to it you realize you are doing this
all the time. Youre doing this every moment of the day, your actually when
you talk to people and youre trying to tell somebody at work, or youre trying
to convince them of something, youre, youre giving a proof in exactly this
way. Ah, you, youre not doing anything else, and the way you think and the
way you understand the words and sentences is based on this also. This is the
ground for everything you think. Ah, and on, every time youre trying to
convince somebody at work or your, your husband or your friend or your
mother or anything youre actually giving them this logical statement. You

dont know youre doing it and you didnt think about how it works. Ah, but
youre, you, youre thinking in exactly this way. If not two, not three means
if something is not, not blue which means what? If its [laughs] blue, its not
yellow. If not, not blue then its not yellow. Because it means if its blue its
yellow, not yellow, sorry. If these three things hold if these three relationships
hold if somebody understands, the guy that youre arguing with, if he
understands that the sun is yellow if he understands that if something is yellow
it cant be blue. And the third one, is, its a little bit, we dont even have to talk
about the third element but its also necessary for special reasons. Then he cant
deny the, he cant deny the conclusion which is the sun is not blue, he cant deny
it. And, and in a way he knew it already, he didnt tie it together. He had all
the elements in his own mind; he knew that the sun was yellow, he knew that if
somethings not yellow, if, if somethings yellow it cant be blue but it never
occurred to him to say, oh the suns not blue. Were talking about a guy who
thinks the sun is blue. You say the suns not blue, its yellow. You just became a
Buddhist logician. Thats the whole, thats a Buddhist - why? He accepts the sun
is yellow, he can see it. Does he know what yellow is? Yeah! Okay, hes seen
what yellow is, hes seen what sun is, he knows what blue is, okay? He knows
all these things. He just never tied it together. Now how does that relate to our
proof tonight? We wanna prove first of all what we call the
[student] Excuse me.
Yeah.
[student] Um, what, the, the last one: it, does not exist really as one or really as
many how does that connect to yellow? Is that cause yellow is just one? Its
yellow.
Right, right thats true. Sometimes the reason given can be plural. You can have
two parts to the reason given. Normally you dont. This reasons a little tough
for that reason. Okay? Youve got two parts to the reason, actually. Theyre not
self-existent one, and theyre not self-existent as many.
[student] Michael, is there any reason that they chose that, they chose the many/
singular dichotomy
Yeah, youre gonna see why, before we finish tonight.
[student] Okay.

Okay, its a good question. Alright? Everybody all right? [laughs] Okay.
Alright, so ah we wanna see why, we can knock out this part very quickly
by saying: if its not, if something cant exist really as one, - Ill say it again. If
its impossible for something to exist really as one thing, then forget many. If, if,
if one self-existent thing is impossible, you dont have to worry about many of
them. A group of them. Okay? If one Martian is impossible, I dont have to
prove to you that a hundred Martians is impossible. If I can prove to you that
one Martian is impossible, then, a whole group of Martians, you know, I dont
have to fight very hard to prove that to you. If you believe if I can prove to
you that one Martian is impossible, then a whole group of Martians, you know, I
dont have to fight very hard to prove that to you. If you believe that, if I can
show you beyond a, any doubt that theres no such thing as a Martian, then I
dont have to debate with you about a hundred Martians.
[student] I thought that the many was a component of the one.
No, not in this case. Its a group of ones. So Im not going to talk tonight about
trying to prove to you that dont exist as really as many. Because if I can prove
to you that they dont exist really as one, I dont have to prove to you that they
exist really as many that they dont exist really as many. If I can prove to you
that one Martian doesnt exist I dont have to go through a lot of sweat to prove
that many dont exist. So were gonna concentrate tonight, on proving to you,
that existing really as one is impossible.
[student] Any [unclear] as one, Michael? Or these particular
Any existence as one. I mean
[student] As opposed to just
Now, but were gonna, whatever we say about them is gonna apply to anything
actually. And thats the principle of {Madhyamika} but dont worry about it.
Okay, alright? No, nobody fell off their chair yet, okay. How do we prove that
something doesnt exist really as one? Okay? And, and Ill, Ill give you the
proof now. This [unclear] alright, Im gonna give you your homework right
now. And were gonna go through it, cause this is tough Okay? You cant
write the answers in your homework tonight okay? [laughing] that would take
all the

[student] during class.

that would take all the fun out. Yeah, during class, when you get home then
its okay. Alright, outside Im [unclear] doing ninety [laughing] Going ninety Push those guys over and say Ive gotta write my homework
[student] yeah they wont mug you that way
[student] oh my god [unclear]
[student] I guess so
Dont, dont read the whole homework, okay? [laughing] Well go through it
together. No, well go through the whole thing but I want you to do it with me.
This is more of an interactive homework. [unclear]
[student] Oh my god its so long!
Its not as long as it looks. Okay? Actually Im gonna do it with you, before you
do it. Okay. Please follow with me, the first question: The proof called the
emptiness of one or many states: consider the three basic knowledge, path
knowledge, and knowledge of all things. I shortened it to the three knowledges.
They do not really exist, for the exist neither as one thing which really exists, nor
as many things which really exist. Lets confirm the first part of the proof. We
want to know if its true, that the three knowledges are neither one thing which
really exists, nor many things which really exist. Give the proof for the first part,
that the three knowledges are not one thing which really exist. Okay? We hafta,
we wanna prove this part right here. Okay? We wanna prove they dont exist
really as one. And, and the classical proof for that is whats the subject that
were talkin about? What subject are we going to be talking about?
[students] Three knowledges?
Yeah, we dont have to change that part. Okay? What are we trying to prove
about them?
[student] that they dont exist really as one.
Nine, now we can just [unclear] and the proof is, I use four just as a, as we count
okay? [silence] So if by chance tonight you didnt have anything to do at home,
you could just write this in the first blank. [laughing]

[student] I didnt say that

No I wanna go over it, I wanna go through it with you, cause I have, I had,
several people came to me and say, this course is getting to deep for me, and I
said well, okay, Ill slow down a little bit. Ah, consider the three knowledges
they dont exist really as one. Why?
[student] Cause they have parts
[student] What do you write under [unclear] can you say it louder?
Yeah. Ah consider the three knowledges, which mean lets talk about the three
knowledges. Thats our subject. What do we want to prove about them? They
dont really exist as one. As one thing, they do not really exist as one thing.
Why? Because they have parts! Okay? Because they have parts. Now we have
to prove each part of this proof. We have to prove three connects to one, we
have to prove that if something is three it must be two and we have to prove
that if something is not two then it cant be three. We gotta go through those
three steps. Theyre here in the homework. Okay, part number two. Question
number two: lets confirm each part of this proof two. First of all, why is it true
that if something has parts - if three, then it cannot be something, one thing
which really exists. Remember? That was the second element we were trying,
we always have to prove. We call it {gyi-kap}
[student] {gyi-kap}?
{gyi-kap}. And, and this is the guts of the, of this, ah, this is gonna be the most
difficult thing to prove. This is the thing that is hard for you, this is what you
asked about. And, and correctly, I was waiting for someone to say, okay, I
understand that if something were self-existent, itd have to be self-existent one,
or self-existent many, but, but whats that? Why arent those things seen as selfexistent many? I mean whats the difference between a self-existent many and
just a regular many? Okay? [laughs] Because they are a regular many, right?
[student] Yeah.
So, we, were gonna start with the most difficult stuff, which is; why is it that if
something has parts it cant be a self-existent one? Why is it that if something
has parts, it cant really exist as many?

[student] [unclear] if you take a part away then you dont have it, or
Ill tell you. Ah,
[student] [unclear] dependent, [unclear] dependent
You hear that said a lot, you know? The lamas get up and they say well things
have parts so they cant be self-existent. And then you, you have trouble, I mean
it seems so obvious tonight, you wonder, well who would think that it didnt
have parts? You know, or who would miss the point that its not self-existent if,
if all that means is that it has parts, I mean who, whod be dumb enough to think
that it didnt have parts? You know? I mean you hear people get up and it
seems to me, it, it appears to me that it breaks down sometimes. They give the
argument very clearly, they say if it has parts it cant be self-existent; if its
dependent it cant be self-existent; if it has parts it cant be a self-existent one.
And then they go on. But you dont see [laughing] But you dont see whats,
whats the relation, you know? Whaddya trying to prove? Whats it got to do
with me? What, am I, how am I ignorant of that? You know? And how, if I
didnt think that way, how would things change? You know, ah, I think that,
gets, it was very frustrating for me for many years. So, ah, the point is this, and
theyll, and theyll get up and say this too, um take the pen okay? And Ill tell
you something very, very deep, and some day you will catch it directly, you will
not catch it directly tonight because Im saying it, but it will put a seed in your
mind and then if you, if you are, who you seem to be and you havent seen this
yet itll come to you one day. And, and the way to get it to come is to be good.
Keep your morality, keep your patience, do all this stuff. Thats the energy that
makes you see it someday, and its that, ah, when you look at this pen what,
whaddya see, do you see a pen? Carol.
[student] um-hm White and blue?
A pen. Right? Its a pen. What a, what, its a very deep thing, a very difficult
thing, but you you cannot be seeing a pen. Its impossible. Why? Because if, because you cant see the pen without looking at the top of the pen, and looking
at the bottom of the pen. Its impossible for you to see this pen without looking
at the parts of the pen. But while youre looking at the parts of the pen its
impossible for you to see the pen. And its that simple. Its impossible, what you
think youre doing is impossible. And its so simple that you, you, again you
get this feeling [laughs] whats it got to do with me? You know? Its sposed
[unclear]? [laughs] I mean whatre you talking about? [laughing] Ill say it

again. What you think youre doing is impossible. You cannot see a pen. Its
impossible. Because when you look at a pen, the only way you can see it is by
looking at its parts. If, if you didnt, if your eye didnt go to the top and then to
the bottom you couldnt see the pen. But if your eye is focusing on the top or
the bottom you cant be seeing the pen, you see the top of the pen or the bottom
of the pen, you cannot see a pen while you are seeing the parts of the pen. You
cant see the parts of the pen [laughs] and still see the pen. What youre doing is
impossible. What you believe you are doing is impossible. And, so what, who
cares? Right? [laughs] As long as I can use the pen, I dont care. [laughs] You
know? And thats true. Ah, what, what youre really doing, whats really
happening, and youll understand it on the path of preparation, on a high part of
the path of preparation, youll see this fact directly; you are taking clues, you,
you never see the whole pen, and thats obvious cause you cant see the back of
the pen. You dont know if this is a fence that goes on for a mile, I mean, youre
assuming, but you dont know. All you can see, you are catching clues, youre
catching some, youre catching some blue, a rounded part up here, youre
catching ah, a line of white over on the edge here, I mean, this is why artists,
great artists know that; Picasso was playing on that. Ah, you, you catch a few
clues, and then something in you, ah something in you makes you paint a
picture in your mind of a whole perfect beautiful pen. Theres some habit, or
tendency within you that makes you - interpret those parts as, as a nice perfect,
what you call, pen.
[student] But Michael?
In your mind.
[student] This [unclear] I always had problems with. A two year-old, or a one
year-old, sees this thing and doesnt cognize it that way, and doesnt, and doesnt
label it as a pen
No.
[student] but theyre not perceiving emptiness
No.
[student] So, how, how does
Theyre perceiving a, a long white and blue thing, with a thats all.

[student] But they havent filled in, they havent seen enough pens to fill in the
idea of the pen
No, they dont see a pen. They see a long white and blue thing.
[student] Which is the same as a pen in this
Which can work as a pen for a person who knows what it is. You see? Now
how does, now, so who cares if, who cares, and by the way, didnt you mistake
this perfect image for, you think the pen is out there independent of your image.
And, and you have done that with every single object of your thoughts
your mind or senses for beginningless time and youve made the same
mistake. And you believe it.
[student] Why you say mistake, Michael?
Its not out there. Its a product of your imagination.
[student] Why cant you say that its made up of some parts?
The parts are there. Youre, youre interpreting the parts to be a perfect pen.
And youve been doing that,
[student] Why [unclear] logical?
Youve been doing that for your whole existence, youve never done anything
different.
[student] Why isnt that logical, why cant you have different parts that
constitute a pen? Why cant you?
I just told you. Are you looking at a pen or its parts?
[student] Parts, okay, but parts can make a pen!
Then you cant see a pen. At the same time.
[student] What if you had a hologram?
Then youd see the top of the hologram, or the bottom of the hologram, you

couldnt see the whole hologram and if you could, you couldnt see the bottom
or the top you couldnt recognize it as a hologram it would be
[student] Something very small that you see [laughing]
You guys are anticipating the arguments of the lower school. [laughing] And
were gonna get that tonight. So just, I just say its a very holy thing, Im not
kidding. At some point, just before you perceive emptiness directly, youll see
what youre doing. And thats your first direct perception of, what? Ultimate
truth? Or deceptive truth?
[student] Deceptive.
Deceptive! You finally understood what youve been doing, you did not see
emptiness yet, directly. But you directly perceived the game that your mind is
playing.
[student] Well, I still think that, that babies dont play that game.
They do.
[student] They see a whole thing.
They, even they are imputing you see? Even they are even in, from the
moment of conception they are imputing the warmth that they feel and the
wetness that they feel and whatever [unclear]
[student] Theyre imputing it as out there and labeling it?
Yeah, they believe its external to themselves.
[student] Well .
Bugs do. Roaches do, amoebas do, okay? According to Buddhism everyone
does it. And it infects every, every conscious beings mind, okay?
[student] What is that saying the particles exist?
By the way, is the, is the habit of taking it that way, or believing it that way,
deceptive state of mind? Its a tricky, thiss a tricky question.

[student] Believing what way?

Now, believing that the thing out there, is out there on its own, independent of
me is that in your mind all the time? Do, do you always bring it up
consciously, oh, I, ah, its not in me, its out there. Are you stating it all the
time? No. Its infecting your mind, its coloring your mind. But youre not
always on the, if someone else says, hey, you, whatya have your lunch, for
lunch? And you say, Hey you know what Im doing? I, I think that things out
there on its own. [laughs] [laughing] It infects your mind. It infects your mind
to the point that if someone asks you, Does that flower, ah, whered they go?
[laughing] exist out there on their own? Youd say, well of course they do.
You know and whe, and if they said, well, if you werent thinking about it,
would they be there? And well, of course theyd be there.
[student] [unclear]
[student] So what is the deceptive mind?
[student] if your imputing that there
Deceptive mind, lemme get to her [cut] its a good question
[student] What is the deceptive mind. This is the karmic seed, this is youre
talking about the
Deceptive mind deceptive mind is the plain old normal perception of whats
around you and hes, hes valid. Hes okay. Hes very healthy, if it wasnt for
him you couldnt see anything. Hes what, hes what seeing things, hes whats
establishing things as existing. Does space exist, yes. Well thats it! Thats
deceptive mind.
[student] What about atom? Atom still has parts? [unclear]
I love this question.
[student] A neutron, a proton [laughs]
[student] [unclear]
Okay so what we try to do so far? This is the most difficult part, okay? I was
expecting people to [unclear]. Um, the rest is easy, the rest is much easier to
prove, but this is the, this is the profound part, this is the part that if you

understand, you, you can get very close to perceiving emptiness, because if you
understand this, youve seen, what? Deceptive reality. Which is the way things
exist conventionally rather than really.
[student] Are you saying that lamas dont go into this because to them, its, they
get it and [unclear]
I dont know. I, I, I cant [unclear] I can say that I was confused for a long time.
And, and I felt ah, or I guess I didnt reach the part and it does come in
scripture but it didnt come until about eight years into my training
[student] So what are the parts, Michael?
Ah, well get, well talk about it.
[student] you reached the part in scripture and what?
That, that explains all that. And it was just a sentence. It was just two sentences.
And I tore it out, and you know [laughs] [laughing] Alright, ah. So we, lets say,
okay that weve established, youve gotten now feeling for the truth of what
exists. You dont know if, if its such a big deal that you wanna go to a five year
course to hear that, but, ah you understand it. So if, if something has parts it
cant really exist as one. Which I said, what Im trying to say is: if you perceive
the parts, you cant perceive the whole, but you constantly think you are
perceiving the whole. If you didnt perceive the top and the bottom, you
couldnt perceive the thing. But while youre perceiving the top and the bottom
you cant be perceiving the thing.
[student] So then you get to the point where then it, it might appear as a
collection of parts.
But, lemme, lemme answer that and everybody listen. He says; you might reach
the point where it appears as a collection of parts
[student] no no, where it may appear
Okay, may appear as a collection of parts. Lets suppose it does appear as a
collection of parts
[student 2] and that means it doesnt appear as a pen then?

At the time that its appearing as a collection of parts you cant see the pen you
know if I say; Okay everybody in this room
[student] Cannot see the parts?
[unclear]
Look, listen if I tell concentrate on this pen concentrate on the pen, dont
think of all the parts of the pen, dont, dont, look at the letters here, dont, dont
focus on the top, dont focus on the bottom, just focus on the pen as a whole
Okay? Its difficult [laughs] No, actually its hard to describe it, you have to
practice it your mind can go and grasp the whole thing in a sense you know,
the outline, or something pen and then, and then it shifts gears and goes back
to the parts again. You can perceive the collection of parts but, but you cant
do it independent of the parts. So y, I can say concentrate on each part; skip
around, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip. Now, now try to concentrate on the
whole thing at once you can sorta make a picture - and then you slip back
[laughs] into the parts again. Y.., you can go into it in two levels.
[student] But you cant see the entire collection?
You cant. You can imagine it. And thats what Im saying were doing.
[student] Furthermore though, if, if thats the way it really existed, take away
one of the parts and it would cease to exist.
Right
[student] Okay, but what about what a, dont the parts exist though? Michael? I
mean maybe the whole collection does not exist because its made up of parts,
what about the, the
Now Ill tell you something tricky okay? I dont want to get into, [laughs] you
wa, you wanna be, get, potential confusion? You guys want it or not?
[student] yeah, yeah
[student] yeah.
All right. When, when you concentrate on the top, can you see the top without

looking at its parts? Now the {svatantrika} say; while Im looking at the parts of
the pen if I wanna see what Im calling pen, the parts are there, the parts are
there and Im calling those parts pen I can find the parts I call pen. Ultimately
you know, when I get down to these parts thats what Im calling pen. Now
{sandika} the higher school says, oh, mister {svatantrika} [laughing] what, what
happens, pray tell, when you concentrate on the top?
[student] Of the top.
Then you need to look at the top of the top and the bottom of the top. So where
is this thing youre calling pen? Oh, its the top and the bottom together. Says,
oh! What about the top? How can you perceive the top? You know, and what,
what {pro-seng-gye-ka} is saying you never will find a thing that you gave the
label to, the, the {svatantrika} says you can find it; it will stop; the buck stops at
the first level of parts, they say that. The {pro-seng-gye-ka} says, comon, be
honest how can you be seeing the top, if youre not looking at the top of the
top and the bottom of the top? So wheres this thing coming from?
[student] [unclear] bottom?
Wait, wait, wait, wait; so wheres this thing coming from? How can you be
perceiving it? If you cant see even the top without looking at the top of the top
and the bottom of the top, then wheres this thing coming from?
[student] Atoms.
Your mind! Your, your phony imagination. [laughs] [laughing] Okay? Your
deceptive mind. Okay?
[student] Why?
[student] Which kinda fills in the
Its filling in. Its filling in.
[student] No but Im not talking about
And why is it filling in, in this certain way, thats the point. You see, thats the
where I feel that I always got short changed. Why is it filling in, in a certain way?
[student] [unclear]

No. Whos causing it to fill in, in a certain way? Is it choice?

[student] karma.
Karma, its my past mental seeds. Its filling it in the way it wants to, despite my
desire for happiness, [laughs] okay? I want it to fill in things always the way I
would like you know? I would like dinner to be filled in as delicious [laughing]
and [laughs] I would like ah, my boss to be filled in as saying, you know, youre
really the best employee we have. Ah, and it, it it, its the same parts, but its
refusing to fill it in that way despite my desires. Thats {samsara}. Thats
suffering.
[student] What about if you narrow it down? I mean, you, you, what are you
saying if I understood you correctly is that if you break it down, if you go into
the part youll see the part that you see the bottom, the top of the part and the
bottom of the part, if you narrow it down more, youll see again, what about if
you really get to the protons and neutrons
Well get, were getting there, were getting there Im getting there he it, its a
beautiful, beautiful question because its exactly where the argument goes next.
Its exactly where all the great saints of India have decided this should go next.
So your mind is going in the right direction. So ah, lets talk about what Nina
said, we, we, lets talk about [laughing] So you now have the [unclearreason?] of number two.
[student] which is
Which is, now Im not gonna read to you, you, you distill what I said, but dont
forget the pen, I mean, use the pen if you like. Okay, number three. The
{svatantrika} system says, the reason here which is what? The reason is here.
Because they have, heres the reason, right? They say that this having parts
applies to every object that exists in the universe. You uncomfortable with that?
[student] Say it again Michael.
They say this reason applies to everything in the universe. Everything in the
universe has parts. Remember the first course? Didnt they say that? Wasnt
that the independent, - independently {svatantrika}? They say that everything
in the universe has parts, therefore the three knowledges what? .. have parts!

They exist!
[student] They are one of the things in the universe
They are one of the things in the universe. What, what are they getting to?
Theyre getting to theyre getting to this, remember if we want to prove
something we have to prove this relationship also? We just proved the worst
one, the hardest one, that was if three then two but now, were gonna try to
prove one is three meaning the three knowledges are what?
[student] Have parts
Have parts! And the {svatantrikas} say, hey! You guys, if you want to prove
that the three knowledges have parts, lets just prove that everything in the
universe has parts. Probably cover the three knowledges [laughs] alright?
Overkill, to prove that the three knowledges have parts Im sorry, to prove
that all things have parts, you have to prove that changing things have parts,
and that unchanging things have parts. And by the way, theres only two
possibilities in the universe - you are either a changing thing, or you are an
unchanging thing.
[student] um, sometimes they break things down into composed and ..
Yeah, thats incorrect. Its just a mistake. Its a ba, its a mistranslation.
[student] Thats a mistranslation of changing and unchanging?
Yeah,
[student] Okay
Yeah, in fact the normal translation here is permanent and impermanent and
thats a mistake.
[student] What about produced and unproduced?
Thats better.
dont exist.

But, its not great because theres unproduced things but they

[student] What is it unchanging and permanent?

Well, I dont want to get too much into it, but, is the, is the emptiness of this pen
what they call permanent in the normal translation? It is.
[student] Yeah,
[student] Yeah.
It will go out of existence when I destroy the pen. Does that, fit your idea of
permanent?
[student] no.
I think its a bad translation. You see?
[student] Oh, cause permanents, okay
Permanent means eternal.
[student] Yeah
And that aint what the Buddhist terms mean, it just means unchanging. For as
long as, - for such time as the emptiness of this pen does exist, it will never
change its quality. It wont get more empty, less empty. As long as theres no
elephant in this room, this room is empty of elephants. And its not like half
empty of elephants, or five minutes later empty of elephants, or any more less
empty of elephants or any less empty of elephants its either, or any other nots
you put an elephant in here its, the emptiness of elephants is
[student] non existent
Gone. Okay, is it permanent? It is what the translations say permanent is, its a
bad, I dont like that translation, alright? I will use it but I, I think students have
to understand that. Okay. Ah, Prove this; you must prove that changing things
and unchanging things have parts. So we can divide all things in the worl, in the
universe into those things that change, and those things that dont change
[student] Why dyou even have to divide it? Why you just cant say whole
things? Why dyou have to say changing and unchanging?
Because if we can prove that changing things dont have, I mean, Im sorry. If

we can prove that all changing things have parts and if we can also prove that all
unchanging things have parts
[student] [unclear] you still have to ah, ah, divide it? Why cant you just say all
things?
Im trying to prove it to you! Everyone in this office is an asshole. Prove it to
me. Well, Tom over there, you should hear what he said to me yesterday
[laughing] and hey [laughing] and [unclear] you wouldnt believe what she said
to me. [laughing] I mean by the end, if Ive gone through everybody, now you
believe everybody is?
[student] Yeah, but I, I didn, you didnt divide
If I say everything in the universe is changing, Im sorry, is, has parts; everything
in the universe has parts. One good way to do it is to go through the things one
by one and say look everything on that side of the office is a and everybody
on that side of office is a so you agree everybody in this office is a ?
[laughing]
[student] Youre in the office, too [laughing]
Okay, No, [unclear] common, I can prove that all the [unclear]
[student] I dont understand why you have t, why you have to eh, eh, separate
them [unclear]
I just told you why! If Im in your office and [laughing] [unclear] everybody in
Ninas office is a, is a son-of-a-gun, and you say well prove it, and I, then well
then how do I prove it?
[student] yeah, but you say everybody in your office is either son-of-a-gun or
not son-of-a-gun you know what I mean? You didnt say that, you just said sonof-a-gun. One choice. You have two
No I am dividing. In each person, Im dividing everybody into each person
[student] You know why he says it that way? Because if he didnt and he said
everything is ah, gotta be changing, one person in that class is gonna stand up
and say what about the things that are not changing? So you have to distinguish


No its, its not for that, its that when I want to prove something about
everybody in your office I can do it if I can prove it about every person
individually in your office, right? Thats how I have to do it.
[student] Okay but you still did not say I you didnt present it as, ah bad
versus good, or you didnt present in two formats rather your, you did,
changing and unchanging.
Oh no Im saying John or Tom. John and Tom are both bad guys prove it, well
first Ill prove John is a bad guy, and then Ill prove Tom is a bad guy when Ive
to it done, Ive prove that both are bad guys. Okay, divide and conquer. Alright,
next think about it ah, to prove that changing things have parts, you must
prove that physical things have parts and that mental things have parts because
mainly those are the two divisions of changing things. And youll learn that
someday. If a thing is changing broadly speaking it has to be either mental
or physical.
[student] Im sorry could you repeat that?
I, Im trying to prove everything in the universe, is, is, has parts. And by doing
that, to do that I split everything into changing things and unchanging things.
Cause I can, if I can prove to you that the only two choices in the universe are
both, ha, both have parts then Ive proved that everything has parts. Now. To
prove that the first part has parts, which is what?
[student] Changing things.
Changing things. Im gonna split them into two parts and prove that both of
those parts are, have parts. Now the only, basically speaking, and theres an
exception and Im not gonna get into it; if you, if the thing is changing it either
has to be mental or physical.
[student] So these are the two parts you are dividing into?
Yeah theres only two choices
[student] Mental?

You can go like this, here this will make it easier

[student] Mental and what?
[student] Physical
[student] Thank you
[student] Like Olivia Newton John, lets get physical. [laughing] a really bad
song in the seventies.
[student] Bad song in the eighties and nineties [laughing]
[student] Unchanging badness! [laughing]
[student] actually on Mars they think its great so [laughing]
Alright things is little delicate but Im gonna leave it for now [unclear]
[student]
[student]
[student]
[student]
[student]
[student]

Delicate things are undelicate?

What is the in, other word?
Subtle
Subtle
Gross
Gross

Gross
[student] Gross like John Travolta [laughing]
So I wanna prove that things all have parts I have to prove that changing
things all have parts, and unchanging things all have parts. By the way, whats
the big deal about proving that things have parts? If I can prove that everything
has parts then what I said about [unclear] applies to all things, and then all things
are empty.
If I can prov
[student] but you still havent answered the atom question
Im getting there cause its right here! If I can prove that [laughs] if I can prove
that if something has parts its unreal if, if its true that, that if anything has parts
its unreal and if I can prove that everything in the universe has parts then
youre gonna have to accept what?
[student] everythings [unclear]

Everythings unreal. Okay? So Im just tryin to work it, its a little hard to
prove that everything has parts, but thats what were gonna spend this evening
on. And if, if and now because of what I said about the pen at the opening, which
is, never forget that, thats a holy thing and it will help you someday. Okay, if, if
I can prove that fact about all things in the inverse then everything is empty.
Then theres not a thing in your life, or in this universe which doesnt come by
means of your own perceptions and your own karma thats forcing it on you.
Even the universe, even the galaxy, okay, even atoms and carbon [laughs]
alright. We were gonna - if we prove this and this one, we prove this one. If we
prove this and this one, we prove this one. If we prove this and this one, we
prove this one and then theres no other choices. Were down to gross subtle
things subtle, Im sorry; gross physical things and subtle things. Ill cover those
two and then well take a break. Gross, [laughs] Shes gross from [unclear] now
common! [laughing]
[student] wow [laughing]
Okay, gross is very easy. If I cover my two fingers like [laughing] I can prove
my hand has parts. Because by covering this, this doesnt disappear. [unclear]
have to move the same way if they werent separate parts. Its so, its simple.
Okay? Ill say it again. Theres two proofs from the scripture. One is that if you
cover a part of a big physical thing, the other part doesnt disappear so there
must be different parts! If you move Michael
[student] [unclear] Michael?
I gave you two examples, remember? You only need one. The second thing is
I mean if I didnt have any parts, then when I move my right arm, my left arm
should move, if theyre not separate parts, then, or when I wink this eye, the
other eye should wink. And those are all examples from scripture.
[student] When you say removed you mean rem, simple removed from view
or removed as well, if you cut your two fingers off?
Well, I mean from view [laughs]
[student] Well but its true! If you cut your two fingers off
Thats true too,

[student] hand right?

Well if you cut your two fingers off, the other two dont fall off.
[student] W..
If they werent parts,
[student] right
If your hand didnt have parts, then the other two would fall off.
[student] And and same thing goes if you took the inside of the pen out from
behind, then we couldnt see it, then the pen should cease to exist.
Yeah, right. Now subtle ones, this is where we get into atoms. Miss [Macardis]
atoms? This is a beautiful argument. Does that happen to be number four?
[student] four. [Laughing]
This is pretty interesting and this is the one the Dalai Lama often brings up and
this is where, a, his lions come in, okay? Um. Lets say you get down to the
smallest [unclear] in the universe. Miss [Macardis] instinct wants her to say they
dont have any parts. And the, and the Buddhist philosopher says, um, are they
is it by putting atoms together that you make things? Do atoms blend into each
other? Do these two atoms go like this? Or do they, do they have to be - can
they invade each others space?
[student] [unclear] together.
Or do they, can they just overlap totally? Can every part, can every side of one
atom be covered by the side of the atom next to it? Can every surface on that
atom be touched
[student] in other words, can they merge or not. Or not.
Be touched by the atom next to it?
[student] Partially or totally?

Is it that every part of this atom touches every part of this atom? Which is it
would end up looking like that then everything would be one atom big. And I
wouldnt be here [laughing] [laughs] Okay? Or is it that somehow they touch,
they touch on one place, or even on a couple of places, but they dont touch on
the other sides, the far side? I mean, you have to say this, cause if you say this,
you wouldnt have anything bigger than an atom.
[student] Okay.
As long as they exist in this way, which Miss [Macardi] says no, ah, there has to
be a side thats touched and a side thats not touched. Okay? There has to be a, a
left side and a right side. Or, an inside or an outside, or a, or a near side or a far
side and thats parts!
[silence]
[student] I knew you were gonna say that.
[laughs] [laughing] [unclear]
[student] Cant you make it small enough that you cant take up or down?
I didnt say up or down, I said
[student] I mean left, ahh touching, none touching side
No cause if they dont make some kind of contact or if theyre not close how
can you have a thing, how can a thing be made up of those? if theyre not
somehow grouped together how, how can it, and then, and then when you
group them, I dont care if you wanna say they have fields and they can actually
kinda go like this but in, in any case theres gonna be a far side which is closer
to the, to the field in which they sem, semi-merge or theres gonna be a closer
part to the field in which they semi-merge but, but in any case theres gonna be a
left side and a right side, or a near side and a far side or, there always will be. Or
else you couldnt make a thing of it. If they touched, if every I repeat if every
surface, every point on the surface of one atom touched every point on the
surface of another atom everything would just merge into one.
[student] Wed have one atom.

And everything would be a single atom and you couldnt eat the deserts
upstairs. [laughing] Okay, well do [unclear]
[student] Are you saying that theres no such a thing as one atom, one atom in
the universe by itself? if I
Theres no such thing as a subtle physical thing which doesnt have parts. And
Ive already proven to you that theres no such thing as a bigger physical thing
that doesnt have parts, therefore what? Theres no such thing as a physical
thing, it - no physical thing in the universe doesnt have parts, or everything
physical in the universe has parts. Because I proved it for atoms and I proved it
for everything made of atoms. Has, has
[student] why are you call this [cut]
[unclear] things have parts too. And
[student] oh yeah, ahha [laughing]
Okay? [laughing] [unclear]
[student] What are mental things?
Ah, well, there are your mind and your mental functions. You, your basic
awareness of anything and in all those little mental functions like jealousy, anger,
concentration, knowledge, not {bodhichitta}
[student] Not {bodhichitta} [laughing]
[unclear] struggle with. Those are mental things, alright? Now we talk about
ah, we talk about direct two kinds of karma. Okay? One is direct cause and
one is indirect cause.
[student] Causes of what?
I should say direct and you give me a good word when I explain it. Direct
means happening right after the other with no other thing in between. So you
can say me-ness awareness; your, your visual awareness of me at eight-thirty
and your visual awareness of me at eight-thirty point-oh-one. The next, the next
second,

[student] millisecond.
okay, the very next millisecond.
[student] Okay.
That, your awareness of my color and shape ah, visual awareness of me at
eight-thirty point oh-oh. And your awareness of me at eight-thirty point ohone. These are what we call direct cause and direct result. Okay? The your
visual awareness at eight-thirty-oh-oh, is the direct cause for your visual
awareness at eight-thirty-oh-one. Im contributing as the object, but Im not the
direct cause. The direct cause is, is the mind of the moment before - the visual
awareness of the moment before. Now the thing that turns into the visual
awareness of the moment after I admit that there are many other causes going
on, many other conditions ah, Im here as your object ah, you have the
eyeball helping you out, that you have the, ah the what do they it? The cornea?
In your eye opening and closing
[student] Iris
[student] pupil
Those are all helping the main cause for your visual awareness of me is, is the
one from the moment before.
[student] Michael, how does the karma fit into that, I mean
Were getting to that
[student] talk about the main cause being karma
Were getting there. Were getting there.
[student]
So its still the main cause is really the visual perception of
immediately ..
The direct cause, the direct cause. What we call the direct cause is the visual
awareness of the moment before. Of the millisecond before. You can think of it
like this, I mean heres, heres the, lets say its going this way, okay? Heres
your awareness bearing moment one and then heres your awareness bearing

moment two and then heres your awareness milliseconds, okay? Millimilli-milli-milliseconds. Okay theyre going like this: youre aware of me, youre
aware of me, youre aware of me youre aware of seeing me actually okay?
My color actually if you wanna get technical um your, your, your eye
consciousness your awareness of seeing me at moment number one is its
direct cause of your awareness of seeing me at moment number two. Lets say
you keep your eyes on me for three milliseconds - is number one, is, is the visual
awareness at moment number one, still the direct cause of the visual awareness
at moment number three?
[student] no.
No because there is something in between.
Thats important for our
argument tonight okay? Thats called - what do you want to call that cause? I
dont like so much indirect I just - in Tibetan its like stream
[student] In between
or
[student] intermediary
No I mean ah, this, one is a cause for three but it isnt a direct cause its a
[student] continuous
[student] delayed
Delayed maybe the, the word in Tibetan is like a stream
[student] buffer?
[student] Built-upon cause.
There is such a good way to
[student] interlocking, interlock
its [unclear] What it means is after a certain moment of streaming
[student] laps

You can say laps but the word, is there something that says stream - some kind
of idea of stream? I could say indirect but I dont pref, like indirect so much
because that, there are other little causes hanging out here which are indirect
causes of it,
[student] Can you describe that thing again? What, what is that?
If I call number one a direct cause of number two,
[student] Right, ahha
What do I call, what kind of cause do I call number one and number three, its
not direct, its
[student] But what, how do you describe whatever that was
Its happening in a stream
[student] Its preceding section of a direct continuum
I mean if I translate [laughing] If I, if I translate it literally in Tibetan it would be,
it would be what do you call your root lama and your lineage lamas? Lineage
lamas start just before your root lama and it, the word is, is lineage cause, you
know? I dont know, its a, its a stream cause. It, it has to stream on a little bit
further and then, its not direct anymore.
[student] But, but Im going back even before that when you described what,
what that was
[student] What about
Oh, visual consciousness. Your consciousness of seeing me.
[student] Right, okay and then
And then at this moment, and then this moment.
[student] Right, okay.
That, the visual consciousness you had at, when I had my finger here, whats the

cause of the visual consciousness of me here?

[student] Right.
Direct cause.
[student] and so thats one, two, three, but then and thats the direct
Now if I go like that then, your visual consciousness of my finger at this
moment was a cause of your visual consciousness of this moment but not a
direct because there was something in between.
[student] oh, oh, oh,
But these two, these two are, are direct. And its very important what, I forget
who said it, but somethings in between. In this case, when youre talking about
these two, there is nothing in between. Because theyre happening, milliseconds
together.
[student] So how do you want to call em?
Dir, Im talking now about direct cause. Okay? When youre talking about a
direct mental cause and a direct mental result your consciousness of Mike at
instant one and your consciousness of him at instant two and theres nothing
between there, okay?
[student] Whats wrong with indirect?
Does this look familiar? I like indirect, but what Im saying is that theres other
little causes and factors that are contributing to things that are indirect but
theyre happening just before. But well talk [unclear]
[student] Michael could you say that when, when something, changes from a, a
cause to a result, that thats sort of the point that which youre talking about?
Right? Youre not talking about, that which lead up to it youre talking about
the, the, the spot where a cause
I am talking direct and, and I define it as, the way she did, naturally, which I liked
it [unclear] that way; was nothing in between. Okay? Does this look familiar?
Does this look familiar? Do you recognize these tonight?

[student] yeah.
Right? Does every part of this instance is every, is every mo, is every part of
the second awareness equally close to the first one? Is every line of this square
equally close to every line of this square.
[student] no.
[student] Whaddya mean by close, Michael?
Im, I just said it; is this line as close to here as this line is close to here? No. If, if
every part of this instant, overlapped every part of this instant then what?
[student] Then wed only have one instant. [laughing]
[unclear] one instant to live [laughing] if, if there were no instants, there
were no part of instants of two that were any further along in time than, than
any part of than a particular part of instant one, they would overlap. And you
wouldnt have time.
[student] But Michael
There have to be parts of instant two, that are a little bit longer along in time,
than some other parts of instant two because if it werent true then instant two
would overlap itself and there would never be no instants.
[student] [unclear] for me to understand [unclear]
Its exactly the same.
[student] Since I was a kid, I mean we were taught about atoms but, but time
doesnt there have to be something that comes between instant one and instant
two otherwise how do you tell instant one from instant two?
Oh, good question. If there were something between instant one and instant
two then I say, then, then you, then were not talking about direct causes. Im
talking about a priori Im - you have agreed - what I - after you came down
here after that nice food and you were still lazy and you didnt object to what I
said, [laughing] there was a direct cause and a direct result boom, boom. And
there was, according to Nina, nothing between. And thats true, there is such a

thing. There is such a thing as a direct cause and a direct result. That - we call a
{chibo-sa-chua} - {chibo-sa-chua} means flip-flop the cause flip-flops into a
result. You know, boom. That and theres nothing between. It, its, its even
called flip-flop. The defini, the way the definitions of a cause is; previous flip,
previous flop. Flip I guess, flip of flip-flop [laughs] you know? And the result is
the flop of flip-flop you see? Well, the wa- theres nothing in between. If you
want to posit something in between, then youve just ruined the idea of cause
and effect. Of, of a direct cause and a direct result.
[student] So we have found something ahhh, thats cant be subdivided then.
Why?
[student] wha, you, what you just said. Then they cant be a cause and result. If
we had ah
Right. So Im saying
[student] that, that in Buddhism postulates that there is something that
cannot be further subdivided and that is the flip-flop of a cause and result.
Direct cause and result.
[student] so how small, so how small do they make these moments in time, I
mean theyd have to be infinitesimal
[student] of, of a direct cause and a direct resul, and theres not a
Ah, there are sixty-four in one finger snap. [laughing] Theyre called {yu-gayma-chig-ma} I mean the {yabi-dharma} system says there isnt a smallest
measurement of time and the other schools say impossible.
[student] yeah thats what I would think
Impossible.
[student] its irrelevant
Because, that moment in time
[student] whats the use in subdividing it?

[student] Its not

No because, because theres a part of that moment in time which is closer to the
previous moment in time, and theres a part of that moment in time which is
closer to the next moment in time and if that werent so, then it would just
overlap with one of those moments and there would be no movement in time.
[student] So its just
[student] one really long moment [laughing]
These are interesting questions [unclear] [laughing]
[student] in the time that it takes to ask the question [unclear too many talking]
[unclear] this is the proof that mental things have parts. And I, and I, you
know you can debate it for a long time, youre welcome to stand outside after
class.
[student] Michael that, that mental, mental things have parts, or that mental
things appear to have parts?
Have parts - to a deceptive mind.
[student] which means appears to have parts.
Right.
[student] thank you.
But not really have parts. [unclear] We just proved that this whole side of stuff
has parts now we get to the hairy one: unchanging things. Try and name some
unchanging things for me, there are only three classical examples.
[student] You got it.
Oh, I did have it, boy this is a gift, I have to say. Okay. [laughs] Well start with
empty space.
[student] Just give us the quiz, now [laughing]

[unclear]
[student] open book quiz.
[student] yeah.
Alright people from the first course, this is all coming back to you. Oh, the
independence; they said, their explanation of dependent origination is better
because it covers all existing things and not just caused things.
Right.
Remember that? Right. Okay, now I have to go to the book, okay? Because this
is hard for me. Lets start, {Gye} starts with cessations. Whats a cessation?
[student] ? (yaay-von?)
That is one cessation, yeah, of what? What did you stop?
[student] negative emotions
[student] mental afflictions
Yeah, mental afflictions and their seeds.
Cessations are permanent?

That is one kind of cessation.

[student] Pretty much permanent, I would say! [laughing] [unclear]

Theyre, in being an absence of something, they are unchanging. I dont like the
word impermanent, okay? Because they are absences of something they are
unchanging, their quality never changes you never get more or less free of
mental afflictions. After you stop it, youre just free. Thus it, that quality never
changes, it never gets bigger or less [unclear]
[student] While youre experiencing ..
No, not even that. Okay.
[student] So if yer, if yer, um you achieve freedom from afflictive sort of some of
the time, you havent achieved cessation? By definition cessation has to be
something thats unchanging?
Right, but you can, and thats an example [unclear]. When you talk about the
truth of cessation he says; Can you, is there a kind of cessation where you have
given up the intellectual belief in self-existence, but you have yet to give up

seeing things as self existent. Weve been talking about that a lot.
[student] yep.
Who is that? In the magicians story? Its a person who has
[student] [unclear many answered] magician.
Right he still sees it as self-existent hes forced to: he knows hes great; he
knows its a spell; he knows its not really there; he knows [unclear]
[student] But did you just say, intellectually?
Yeah, but were talking about a person now whos seen emptiness directly. He
has reached path num, path number three. Hes just become an {arya} hes
achieved the path of seeing. During those short minutes that he sees directly Im
not talking about those but right after that, you can imagine that he, he just saw
what I described to you at the beginning of this class. He, Im sorry, he saw that
before, but anyway, he will never again believe his eyes. Although his eyes are
still lying, he knows his eyes are lying - he will still see things as self-existent but
he knows its not that way. And in fact hell reach {nirvana} on the day he can
stop seeing things as self-existent.
[student] Who yer referring to in this, in this context?
Okay
[student] Cessation
Im talking what Im describing
[student] yeah,
Is a cessation that has parts. Because what? It has a part of having given up
were talking about the guy who just saw emptiness directly okay? His
cessation. What did he s- he does have what we call the truth of cessation
general truth of cessation in the three- in the four {arya} truths he does have
the truth of cessation in him. He owns the truth of cessation, in fact thats what
makes him
[student] an {arya}

 and, a object of refuge. Okay? He has the truth of cessation in him. And that
truth of cessation has two parts. What? It, it is a cessation of intellectual belief in
emptiness.
[student] A cessation of ?
Intellectual belief in emptiness. But he still has what? Still has this inborn
perception of self-existence, still has this inborn, this inherent - that people are
born with, ah belief Im, Im sorry I should say, perception of [unclear] so in
a sense, his cessation has two parts; a part of the cessation where hes got rid of
the intellectual belief in self-existence, and a part of the cessation where he hasnt
got rid of the innate perception of self-existence. So his, his big, perception, his
cessation there, if you wanna look at it - see it as an egg, okay? [laughs] [unclear]
two parts here: this is his truth of cessation and this part doesnt have any
more of the belief obs, yeah the belief in things, the intellectual belief in things
that self-existence he doesnt believe what he sees, but this part still has the
perception of things as self-existent, the appearance of things to him as selfexistent.
[student] Yeah, but um
so his cessation has?
[student] parts
[student] parts
Parts. Proof number one. Okay? [laughs]
[student] when, when, so then Michael, when, when y- he both thinks and
believes that ah, things are not self-inflicting, then he does not have cessation
anymore it its a different stage its not, its not called cessation any more? Is
that whacher saying?
It,s Im sorry
[student] E, what, when, when he
This whole thing is called truth of cessation he has the truth of cessation which
is characterized by not having anymore intellectual belief in self-existence and by

still having
[student] Right
thats the nature of his deceptive
[student] what happens, I mean, would you say its, that he has proof cessation
and I donno if its a good word to say, when e he both ah the reason to
Thats truth, when he reaches the point of the spectator who came later, he will
have an empty egg, but that doesnt fit my needs tonight, I need to prove it has
parts. [laughs] Okay? Alright. Lemme go on. Empty space, that was easy,
Connie do you know any of the arguments [unclear]
[student] north, south, east or west.
have parts.
[student] All of the directions, eh? North, south, east, west.
Yeah okay, by the way, what is empty space? It is very hard to perceive.
[student] Its the absence of an obstruction
Yeah, it is not the place between these, you know you see it and people trying to
explain space, it is not the place between two exits. Its not that, thats wrong.
Okay? Space is where this whole thing is, is being. Space is, empty space is
where this pen is sitting, is located right now. You can even take away this
location.
[student] So how would you define empty space then?
Empty space is the absence of what did we call it?
[student] Translo
Obstruction! [laughs] Okay. By the way, I ah, ah, its a, its a real bummer with
me I, ah, hate to hear it miss-explained, okay? Is the pen in empty space? Yeah!
Its occupying empty space.

[student] We are in empty space too

We are too, sos New York City, and so is the planet. And when I take the pen
out of empty space whered the empty space go?
[student] Still there
It never gonna move. [laughs] You know? [laughing] Im gettin Barbadian in
my expression [unclear] [laughing] Okay? Its never gonna be you know, you
can take the pen in and out of empty space, the empty space is hanging there
and it always will
[student] You could never take the pen out of empty space cause, ah isnt it
actually empty space is part of the pen
Out of that empty space which, which is good from this point I took it out of
the empty space which is at one foot east and I moved it to the empty space
which is one foot west. And those are the parts of empty space.
[student] oh!
[student] do the parts, how dyou find the parts?
Here. The pen is now in the eastern empty space and now I move it to the
western empty space. And I really prefer the word empty when you say space
when you translate that word, most people [unclear] translate it as space, I think
you get into trouble this is space too you know? Thats not what it means.
And, and the {yabi-dharmas} figured that out they have an argument about it.
Okay
[student] So this will be the four cardinal directions? Ah north and south
I dont care. Up/down, there/here around
[student] Okay.
Left side/right side, you can say anything but empty space has parts. [laughs]
Alright were gonna finish on time if we can do - emptiness!
[student] {Rirab} actually.

Sorry Okay, lets see what he says here. If can explain it to you guys, I can
explain it to the next guys [laughing] Youre my guinea pigs, Ive apologized
[unclear] [laughs] aaaa, lets see here
[student] By the way which answer did all this correlate to?
[student] Empty space. Parts of empty
[student] Number six.
[student] Number six on the homework?
Okay he says: is the emptiness, which is a quality of the table, ah is, is that
emptiness which is a quality of the table also the emptiness which is a quality of
the chair?
[student] Say it again, Michael?
[laughs] Okay. I have trouble with it myself. Lets take emptiness in general.
Okay? Emptiness the emptiness which is a quality of the table and the
emptiness which is a quality of the chair are different.
[student] The, is the emptiness of two pens exact pens, the same?
No.
[student] So no emptiness is the same?
Right, every object has its own emptiness, by the way,
[student] As long as that object exists.
Well, when you say obj, - object is a synonym for existence.
[student] So the emptiness for that object ceases to exist when that object ceases
to exist.
Right and thats why I dont like the words permanent and impermanent with
reference to these in, its not eternal.
[student] So then emptiness is also something thats changing.
Unchanging.

[student] No, you just said when the object changes and goes away its
emptiness goes away
Ah, now we get to a subtle point which you will perceive someday directly
[laughing] Im not say, no its not a joke its a very deep thing its a very, very
deep ah perception you will have one day; that the, the emptiness can go in and
out of existence but it never changes and it never starts and it never ends. And
thats a difficult thing to realize, its a difficult thing to perceive. It, it can be in a, it
can go out of existence it can come into existence it doesnt start and it doesnt
end. And you just have to cook that, I cant make you realize that directly you
have to meditate on it. I can describe it to you and its true you have to think
about it.
[student] go in and out of existence?
It can go in and out of existence
[student] But
But it cannot begin or start, or end.
[student] So it moves around maybe?
[laughs] Its there or its not there. But it doesnt begin or, or end, and I, I, you
just have to cook it, I, I, I tell you someday you [unclear]
[student] Sos there a moment right before its there that its kinda starting to be
there and ah ..
No, no
[student] Its just instantaneous?
Changing things are always that way
[student] ah-oh
Changing things are always starting to start, halfway through starting, getting
close to the end of starting, it does not apply to emptiness.

[student] So what are the parts of emptiness?

Ah, that emptiness which is the nature of the chair and that emptiness which is
the ultimate nature of the table are different parts of emptiness.
[student] but Michael ..
[student] [unclear] two different parts of emptinesses
[student] so when you get rid of the table, then emptiness would have to go
away too
Apparently when you say quality, you escape this problem. [laughs] .. now Ill
read it more carefully [laughing] It doesnt just say the emptiness of the table and
the emptiness of the chair it says that emptiness which is a quality of the chair.
Apparently that distinction helps, by the way just basically what you can come
out of that with if, if, and Ill, Ill read it more and try, if theres anything, more
information about it Ill tell you because I understand the objection. Or the inta
or the questions. But in general view where every object has its own intimate
[student] and as long as its
[student] yeah but you see [unclear]
Because every known thing
[student] believe you and whachu say!
Because everything, [laughs] good! I like it. Lemme study it more carefully and
Ill come back to you. So well say that for, for purposes of this evening so you
can go home on time; if theres three kinds of unchaining things, we conclusively
covered this much, ops! Im [unclear] over there. Those things have parts.
Probably everything, and at least I proved it for everything that emptiness
pretty well. Um, if they have parts then they cant be what? Whatre trying to
prove?
[student] [unclear- all talking]
Then they cant really exists as
[student] one.

One, were only proving that, we didnt get to the second part yet. Thats all I
wanted to do tonight. [laughs] But, Im starting to realized thats all we can
digest; me, too. Okay? We just proved that everything in the universe has parts.
If its true that everything has, that has parts, cant exist really then nothing in
the universe
[student] Really exists.
really exists. [unclear] [laughing] okay what [unclear] homework nine, oh,
you got it!
[student] We got it. [unclear]
[prayer: short mandala] {Idam guru ratna mandalakam niratayami}
[prayer: dedication]

Geshe Michael Roach

Course 2 Tape 10
12-10-93
Transcriber: Kate Roberts
Side A
[cut]
In the monastery we do every week, one or two nights a week, in the debate
ground, we dont debate we just pray for the right motivation for three or four
hours and its called {goyam} and we do that , the Heart Sutra, like twelve times
in a row.
Well you know.
And its a beautiful custom, I like that.
[student:unclear]. Yeah, beautiful, oh, it would raise goose bumps on you if you
hear it. Incredible. It starts out really low and slow and in the end it gets higher,
as high as your voice can reach, you know. So itts a good custom too, they just
dont have any debates, no class, no nothin, they just pray that theyre doing it
for the right reason.
Okay. Tonight were gonna to talk about {Jampa}. Whos {Jampa}?
[student: Maitreya]
Maitreya, okay. Maitreya comes from a word {mitra}/ {mitra} means friend,
love ones. And Maitreyas name means love. Theres two kinds of love in
Buddhism and this is the kind of love that wants other people to have the best.
And the other kind of love is the kind of love that wants people to get out of
trouble. So this is thethis is the one, the kind of love that wants to give people
things, see them be happy. So Maitreyas name is love. He wrote, what ?
[student: unclear]
He spoke actually.
[student: The Perfection of Wisdom]
No, thats the Buddha, thats Shakyamuni.
[student: unclear]
Yeah, no. [laughter, laughs]
Youre close, he wrote The Ornament of Realization, which is what youre
studying. So you better get that down in case some lama asks you what youre
doing. Okay. He, he spoke it to whom?
[student: to Asanga?]
To Asanga. All right? He dictated it to Asanga. So Jampa wrote this text, he
composed this text. At the beginning of the text, he, he wrote us a theres a
rule that at the beginning of a book, you should bow down to some holy object.
You should make an offering to some holy object and that the verse he wrote at

the beginning of his book was what I just quoted, {nyen tu shya.chak tsel lo.}
He wrote this verse, four lines, and its a.instead of bowing down to Buddhas
or bowing down to bodhisattvas he bowed down to the three knowledges. To
the three perceptions of selflessness. He bowed down to that. And when he
does that its supposed to attract people to study the book. Theyre supposed to
think, Oh if I could get this perception of selflessness I could reach Nirvana, I
would be happy. And if youve had any taste of this thing this last week,
thinking about Nirvana, I dont know if you have, I mean I was thinking about it
you know, What would it be like not to have any irritations the whole
day? [ laughs] You know its kinda sweet,its very, very nice. You get a taste of it
when you study it, of what the whole point is, where do you want to reach. You
would still have your body, suffering body, but your mind would be totally clear
and happy. Nothing could phase you. Youd never be upset, youd never have
any anxiety, youd never be worried, youd never be irritated by anything. And
you would love everyone you came across well, not necessarily, right. But it
would be a very interesting
[student: why not necessarily?]
Well lets say your not a
[student: Hinayana]
Maybe youre Hinayana, but you still have this great love, they do have great
love, they do have great compassion. So
[student: you can have compassion and not love, can you?]
You, they come together..
[student: yeah, you can have love without compassion]
Compassion is the desire that people be out of suffering and love is the desire
that they get happiness. So I think they pretty much come together. Technically
speaking one comes before the other and different books say different things so
dont worry about it.
[student: Isnt Maitreya going to be the next Buddha?]
Thats exactly what this whole class is about.[laughs]
Now..
[student: is this, this, this bowing down to three knowledges [b: The Ornament
of Realization?]
Yeah. That is the opening lines of [b:The Ornament of Realization]. And
Maitreya is bowing down to that. Now normally when a person does that, he,
when a person writes a Buddhist book, hes normally doing it for two reasons.
One is that like Dharmakirti when he wrote his root text on logic,
Pramanavarttika he said, {De na.}
{De na..} I forgot, anyway, it goes, Im not writing this book for anybody else
but myself. You know of course he is, butso the first reason you write a

Buddhist book is to help yourself and the second reason is to help others. You
know. Youre trying to get your motivation up for writing or speaking it and
then youre also trying to attract other people to study the book. Now theres,
now theres this great debate that took place about this subject and it actually,
historically took place. It was in the monastery of Sakya which is south of Lhasa
and its still there now. Its one of the few monasteries the library was not
burned. Its mainly one of the only three or four libraries that wasnt burned.
And Gyeltsab Je, who was Tsongkapas, one of his two principal students, went
there. In those days it was a custom to wander around to all the monasteries and
debate. Just walk in the debate grounds, okay, lets go, you know and debate
something. And Tsongkapa himself, the way he got so, one of the reasons he
was such a great scholar, is that from the age of eight, he started wandering
around to debate grounds and debating anyone he could meet. And thats how
he learned. So Gyeltseb Je was there debating two great Sakya scholars and
they are very great scholars, and we agree that they are great scholars. They
wrote, one of them wrote a twelve volume commentary on this fifty page text.
Okay. [laughs]. And they started getting into this debate about who is Jampa?
Who is Maitreya. Okay. Because when you read sutras, and this is the same
thing with Manjushri and the same thing with Avalokiteshvara, in the sutras
that you read, they are students of the Buddha, they are bodhisattvas. And yet
in the higher teachings, theyre Buddhas, you know, we believe theyre Buddhas.
So who are they? And I dont know about you, but this used to confuse me all
the time, you know. It used to constantly confuse me. You know, Why is the
Buddha, why are they asking the Buddha questions if theyre Buddhas already
and why is he already there if hes not coming til later? Andyou know, its
confusing. So, I was happy when we got to this section. Its actually the very first
thing we studied. I wanted to save it for the last class, this is the last formal class
because I think its the most exciting topic for me. This is the most this is the
one which isand Ill show you why later. So the debate was, is Jampait
wasnt even if Jampa was a Buddha or not, it was, does Jampa have any more
paths, does he, does he aspire anymore, does he have any state of mind in which
he aspires to achieve his.to fulfill his own needs. Okay, Ill say it again. Does
Jampa have any state of mind in which he aspires to fulfill his own needs. And
the Sakyas said, No.
[student: which would presume that his needs have not been]
Well, well talk about it. Okay. The Sakyas said, No, he doesnt, he does not
have any aspiration to fulfill his own needs. By the way, this is the only thing
Ive ever seen in scripture, or very rarely, of any of what the western people
call sectarian things. You dont see it. Its very, very rare. You hear about it in
the west. You dont hear about it.hen we debate in the winter, we have

Sakyas, we have Bonpos, we have Nyingmas, Kagyus, all debating together.

We dont know whos who. And its good debates. And theres nodont think
its like that, its just, you couldve picked anybody. The point is that theyre
trying to teach us something. The Gelugpa guy is complaining about the Sakya
guy because they both want to teach us something. Theyre great, great saints.
You dont have to worry about that. So dont think that.
[student: Sakyas another sect]
Yeah. Yeah. But I mean a lot of, Tsongkapa was a Kagyu. I mean, all our lineage
of our practice comes from the Sakyas [unclear] Our practice of the Abhidharma
comes from the Sakyas.
Our practice of Vinaya is probably Kagyu and
Nyingma, we dont even know, they dont really know. We have the book, we
dont know. Nobody knows who wrote it.
It was definitely before the Gelugpas
[student: unclear]
So, I mean, most of that is Western..
[student: is there really a major difference between the sects?]
Theres a difference in the practice. Okay. And you have to be careful to find the
one that fits you and use it. And stick to it. Its like a medical treatment. You
know. Caroline can tell you. You know, like I dont know. This drug might be
great, this drug might be great, this drug might be great. Mix them, you know,
do five different treatments at the same time it might kill you. You might fail
completely. And the traditions are the same. The traditions grew up a certain
way. They teach a certain way. Its not good to mix them in the same sense that
its not good to mix medicine. You can get confused. One will emphasize one
thing, one may even present something differently until a certain stage and then
tell you the other way and then youre just gonna get confused. And you wont
be able to practice steadily. Its not good to mix them up. Theyre all good
medicine. They can all get you to great goals. But find the one that suits you well
and then commit yourself to it. Thats the better approach.
[student: are we getting one brand of this?]
You are getting pure Gelugpa.
[laughter, laughs]
And I, and I, when I started this place I lost about ten students who, who were
not Gelugpa, who came to me for mostly language study. And I said, Im
coming on with the files, I cant
[laughter]
I didnt wear my robes. I wore a business suit and we went on like that for eight
or nine years.
You know, Im presenting this one kind of medical treatment and I believe its
very effective. For me its been quite good. It fits my personal nature. If you,

you know, its good to check out everything and its good to carefully look at
everything. But then at a certain point, even with medicine, you have to commit
yourself to one doctor. You cant follow three different doctors prescriptions or
youd get Rinpoche says that, The Tibetan doctors said, told me I shouldnt
eat fruits and vegetables and the western doctors have told me I shouldnt eat
sugar and starch. And theres nothing I can eat. [laughs] [laughter] So find
find the one that suits you and then commit yourself to it and grow in it and be
happy. And you will be. And mix em up and youll be confused and youll
always be torn, never be quite sure what youre supposed to be doing and you
know... So anyway, what Im saying tonight is not a sectarian thing, its just a
historical debate that went on. And Im sure, Ive seen debates in the monastery
where two great monks take silly positions to teach everybody there and dumb
monks there dont realize that its a game. You know, and they think, Oh, he
won, you know, Hes really smart and the other guy after the debate says,
Thanks for taking the opposite position, I needed someone to take the devils
advocate. So, yeah.
[student: so Michael, [laughter] All right.
So, the question was, they said Jampa doesnt have anymore aspiration to fulfill
his own needs. And so then, the debate is, Well, are you saying that because
you think that Jampa is a Buddha or are you saying that because you think
Jampa is a bodhisattva? You know, Are you saying that on the basis of
believing Jampa is a Buddha, or are you saying that on the basis of thinking
Jampa is a bodhisattva? And thats the way the debate starts. And..
[student: thats the..]
Thats Gyaltsab Jes response. The Sakyas say, and again, its just, its not a
sectarian thing, its just it couldve been Mr. A and Mr. B, it doesnt matter. They
said, He doesnt aspire to fulfill his own needs. And Gyaltsab Je says, Well I
guess you mean either because hes a Buddha or because hes a bodhisattva, so
Ill cover both. Ill prove to you that he does aspire to his own needs, either
way. So, they saylets say they say, first of all, Oh, hes a Buddha or he
doesnt aspire to fulfill his own needs. He doesnt have any intention of fulfilling
his own needs. And then, Gyaltsab Je says, If you say Jampas a Buddha, then
you have a very serious problem. He says, {tenpa ma che te}, which means,
Oh, I guess you havent taken much pains to study Mahayana scriptures.
[laughs]. This is common. I mean, this, they bait each other. And thats common
in the debate. And you see some much hairier ones than that. But heres a man
whos just finished writing a twelve volume commentary to a fifty page text.
And Gyaltsab Je tells them, Well, I guess you havent studied this subject much
because you have failed to distinguish between the system which is shared and
the system which is not shared; the teachings which are shared and the teachings

which are not shared. And then, they know what that means. What does it
mean? The shared teachings are the, are the open teachings. Okay. The nonsecret teachings. Sometimes theyre called Sutra. Sometimes theyre called the
way of the Prajnaparamitaof the perfections, I should say. The way of the
perfections. You could say it either way. You can call them the non-secret
teachings and then the other ones, by the way, why are they shared? Kiley.
Why are the open teachings called shared teachings?
[student : you can share them with people who havent had any special want]
Yeah, thats one. Mainly, to succeed in the secret teachings, you must study the
open teachings. You must be a master of the sutra teachings. You must be a
master of all the theory that weve been talking about for the last year or six
months, whatever. Thats why theyre called shared. They are necessary for
both people who are on the slow track, you know, two hundred and ten kalpas
[laughs] seriously,[laughter], or people who are on the fast track,
which is one lifetime. Either one, both of them have to study the open teachings.
You must understand the Three Principal Paths perfectly, and you must have
some experience of them in your heart before you undertake to study the secret
teachings. So therefore, those are shared. Those attitudes of the Three Principle
Paths are never lost, you must have them in order to succeed at the secret
teachings, or youll not onlyat best, nothing will happen and, and you can
meet people who this is apparently the case where theyve taken dozens of
initiations. They struggle to keep their practice. Maybe they did and maybe
they didnt and mostly they did so so. But nothing happened. You know, they
cant say, you know they say, Did you change any in the last five years? They
say, No, nothing changed. Im still, Im not deadly miserable but Im not in bliss
either. Im trying to keep it up every night but nothing happens. Thats the
best. And then the worst is that you, you try to follow them and you make
some big mistake and you do something wrong. And then it hurts you very
badly.
[student: what do you mean, not much? Thats best?]
No, what Im saying is if, if you, if youre not prepared by the teachings which
are shared, yeah, this chair is broken, [unclear] fix it. My handyman has been
out of town [laughter] if youre not prepared with the shared teachings, it
wont nothing will happen. In fact, the opposite is true. If you do the shared
teachings perfectly, and you never get any initiations, youll still have some
amazing things happening in your life. So its almost as if the opposite is true. So
that what it means, what shared means, people studying the secret teachings and
people studying the open teachings both share these practices. Which are what?
[b: Three Principal Paths], which are what?
[student: renunciation ]

Renunciation. Sick of this life, you mean, no more attraction toyoull get there.
I mean if you dont have it now, go through your career stage. I went through it,
you know. Do it for ten years, its attractive, its exciting, its stimulating, its
interesting. And you get old and it wears out. And then at the end theres
nothing to show for it. So, ah, theres nothing there. And then the second one is
what?
[student: bodhicitta]
Bodhicitta. The wish to achieve enlightenment. You know, basically loving
every single being as if they were your only child. Its difficult. I mean its
difficult but the irony of it being difficult is that its a very pleasant way to spend
your life.[laughs] It makes you happy. And then thirdly, what?
[student: correct view]
Yeah, understanding emptiness. Understanding what gave you a headache last
week, okay. [laughs] [laughter]
And if it doesnt your not if its comfortable, its not addressing the problem
because the problem youve had according to the scriptures, for countless years,
trillions years, time without beginning. You know if breaking a habit were all
that easy, it wouldnt give you a headache.
[student: so these are the three paths somebody who has open teachings have?]
These are called the open teachings, these are the shared paths. These are the
way to share, these are the guts and this is what it all boils down to. Every
practice in Buddhism can be included in one of these three.
[student: so it means that if, if somebody who doesnt have any of those three..]
They should not, if he doesnt a good, we call it{ kowa chakpa}is the minimum.
{Kowa chakpa} means he must have a good understanding of the principles.
[student: okay, so its enough to understand bodhicitta]
No, not necessary but he should have a very clear picture in his mind. {Kowa
chakpa} means he should have a good, theoretical background in the Three
Principle Paths. Its not even necessary that he have the true renunciation. But
he should understand its benefits, he should understand what will happen, he
should understand everything about it. Thats what {Kowa chakpa} means.
Thats a requirement for the teachings which are not shared, which is tantra.
[student: [unclear] you said it takes two hundred and ten kalpas]
Ah, thats a pretty good [unclear]. That was Shakyamunis time.
[student: is that because as a causal path you have to basically create the cause of
every individual you meet throughout your life?]
Oh no, not like that. Its just that the purification of yourself takes, takes quite
long. To meet the teacher who teaches you the right thing and then to practice it.
Thats after you determine to do it. [laughs]
[student: but how long does it take to understand the studies?]

I think it depends on what stage youre at. So anyway, Gyaltsab Je says to

[unclear], he says, Well, if you say Maitreya is what?
[student: a Buddha] .a Buddha, then you fail to make a distinction between the
shared teachings and the secret teachings. The teachings which are shared and
the way which is not shared.
[student: hes the debater, right?]
And hes talking about the secret teachings and the open teachings. Hes talking
about Sutra and Tantra.
[student: Michael, did you say who he is, Gyaltsab Je?]
Gyaltsab Je is the Gelugpa who was debating. In fact hes right here.
[student: whos at the other side?]
Kedrup Je. Hes at the right side of Tsongkapa because Gyaltsab means regent
and he was the next, he was the first holder of Tsongkapas lineage.
[student: whos on the other side?]
Ah, Kedrup Je. See Gyaltsab Je was a real master of logic.
[student: can you write this down for us?]
Kedrup Je was a great master of tantra actually. You want his name?
[student: yeah]
[silence]
Oh sorry about that.
And we still have, I mean the holder of that throne, of that custom is still around.
I believe {unclear Dhargye} held that throne a while. The author of this text.
[student: is this the same as it being a [unclear] order]
It is. The Dalai Lama is not the [unclear]. The Ganden Tipa. Hes the holder .
Because Ganden is [unclear]. And that was his [unclear]. Anyway, so he says, If
you say
Maitreyas a Buddha, then you fail to distinguish between the secret teachings
and the open teachings because we are here in the .whats [b: The Ornament of
Realization] ?
[student: open]
Open teaching. So whats the implication? In the open teachings, Maitreya is a
bodhisattva. Because he said to the Sakyas, If you say hes a Buddha, you made
ayouve failed to distinguish between when were talking secret and when
were talking open. Because when were talking open, the implication is hes not
a Buddha.
[student: hes even referred to as a bodhisattva , at least Avalokiteshvara is]
Yeah, by the way, the proof of it, the proof in.. the next step in the proof in the
text is why is why is he a bodhisattva. Theres a couple of reasons. Okay. This
wont be on your homework, but just for your knowledge, he wrote another
book the [b: Uttaratrantra] which is not tantric, its an open text. Maitreya did.

And in that text, he says, This is being written

so I can purify myself of my {shedrips}, my obstacles to omniscience. Which
implies that he well which means hes not a Buddha. It means hes on the
eighth, ninth or tenth path.
He happens to be on the tenth level. So, according to the open teachings, hes a
tenth level bodhisattva. Not only that, hes a {[unclear] topa}which means hes
got one life to go. Then in one life hell become a fully enlightened Buddha.
[student:[unclear] the secret teachings a Buddha? Not necessarily right?] Excuse
me?
[student: a person who knows..]
Oh, it doesnt refer to his knowledge. In the whole tradition of the secret
teachings, Maitreya is a Buddha. Hes already a Buddha. And in the open
teachings, hes a tenth level bodhisattva. Why? Because its been [unclear] in
another work of his. Thats one good reason. It states that , Im writing this
work in order to rid myself of my {shedrips}.
[student: so is that chronological, where he was a bodhisattva and then he had
the one life, he went through it and became a Buddha and in the secret teachings
hes now a Buddha?]
No.
[student: its not chronological.]
According to the secret teachings hes been a Buddha for a long time. There was
a point at which he was a tenth level bodhisattva and now, according to the
secret teachings, hes been a Buddha for a long time.
[student: so hes referred to as the Buddha]
Hes the coming Buddha.
[student: future Buddha]
Thats another point.
[student: in which teaching? Sutra or tantra?]
Sutra. He will be the next Buddha of a thousand Buddhas to appear.
[student: when?]
When he goes from Tushita to Ogmen and achieves the Dharma body and then
goes back to Tushita and sends a Nirmanakaya down to planet Earth. [laughs]
Now when is that gonna happen?
[student: were you speaking with the open hat or non open?]
Open hat.
[student: you were speaking with the open hat]
They know the process at which he will go. You dont have to learn that. But
the point is that he has yet to undertake those, those very high processes that
you can even only imagine in which he reaches the final thing of becoming a
Dharmakaya, achieving his Dharmakaya. So right now hes in Tushita.

[student: what is Tushita?]

Its a kind of paradise. Its actually the paradise of this Buddha, Shakyamuni
Buddha.
[student: I dont understand your main point. Ive written down, maybe I missed
something, say if Jampas a Buddha then they cant be distinguishing between
Sutra and Tantra because he wrote[b: The Ornament of Realization.]
Right. No. Because he wrote another book, its the sister book of [b:The
Ornament of Realization], and in that book he said, Im a tenth level
bodhisattva. Im writing this book in order to purify myself.
[student: so thats the reason]
Thats one of the reasons. Thats one reason why in the open teachings hes a
bodhisattva.
[student: isnt it also that hes actually, explicitly referred to, is he referred to as a
bodhisattva the way Avalokiteshvara.?]
He is and youll see theres a quotation that its in your reading where the
Buddha tells, theres a scripture and the Buddhas telling someone, Oh, dont ask
me that question, go ask Maitreya , that bodhisattva whos on the tenth level and
has one more life to go. Go ask him. So thats another proof that hes a
bodhisattva according to this teaching, according to this teachingaccording to
the open teaching.
[student: so how do you reconcile those two different positions?]
This is a mystery which I cant get into. I mean, you can, well talk about it.
[student: what about [unclear] logic?]
Oh, nice. Well get to it. Tonight well get to it. See I didnt say next year.
[laughter]
[student: could you just answer the question of why the Buddha would decide to
call someone a bodhisattva if he was a Buddha?]
Oh, its very, very common for the Buddha to not say whats really the case if it
would help people. Thats normal procedure. Thats why theres four schools.
He did teach the four schools. He did teach Abhidharma. You know the
Abhidharma is contradictory to Madyamika.
[student: why do we need to distinguish]
Well, were getting there. Im going toyou know Im going to get to the point
of why were even talking about this. [laughter]
[student: youre going to finish all these things tonight?]
Yeah, yeah. So the Sakyas say to Gyalstab Je, He has no intention of fulfilling
his own needs or aspirations. And then Gyalstab-Je says, Why, are you saying
hes a Buddha, is that why youre saying he has no aspiration to fulfill his own
needs? By the way, we never hear what they really think. Actually, I went and
looked it up. But, if you say hes a Buddha, youre just on the wrong track,

youre in the wrong system. This aint secret teachings. Were talking open
teachings. Were talking about the person who wrote [b;Abhisamlamkara, The
Ornament of Realization]. So why, why if thats why you think he doesnt have
any intention of fulfilling his own needs, then youre just wrong. You shouldnt
have brought it up. Youre in the wrong, were talking open teachings.
[student: why does having written [b: The Ornament of Realization] prove that
he wasnt a Buddha?]
Yeah, its open teachings.
[student: Buddha teaches open teachings.]
Thats true too.
[student: why does it prove that he isnt?]
Its a shastra.
[student: whats a shastra?]
You can divide all teachings of Buddhism into shastras and sutras. Which is
another meaning, I didnt want to get into it. But anyway a person who writes,
you can call it commentary, {ngun tok gyan} is a commentary written by a
human being, by a non Buddha. Its not [unclear], its in the TengGyur, its in the
whole section of books written by non Buddhas. Its accepted to be an open
teaching. And the KangGyur is written by the Buddha. Thats the difference
between the two big collections of scripture. So it is an open teaching.
[student: well being an open teaching doesnt necessarily make it that ah,..]
That the authors not a Buddha. But an open teaching which is in the TenGyur
which is written by non Buddhas, which it is .
[student: so you dont know the difference between sutra and tantra because..]
He didnt say that. He said, You shouldnt have brought it up. If youre saying
he has no aspiration to fulfill his own needs because you think hes a Buddha,
you cant bring it up in this class. Were not talking open teachings. Were
talking what hes trying to say is only in the secret teachings is Maitreya
thought to be a Buddha. What hes telling the Sakyas is, Look, I understand
that Maitryas a Buddha and you understand that Maitreyas a Buddha but you
cant talk about that right here. According to the open teachings, hes a
bodhisattva.
[student: so nowhere in the open teachings does it say that hes a Buddha?
Ah, theres a debate about that too. Not really, not defensible. Some people say
the Lotus Sutra says so, but its not, it cant prove it.
[student: so, then what he said was, if youre saying he was a Buddha its because
you dont know the teachings because in the open teachings hes said to be a
bodhisattva.]
Ah, if you say hes a Buddha, right, youve done something inappropriate.
Youve brought up the secret teachings in a debate in which were restricted to

the open teachings. And in the open teachings its never said that hes a Buddha.
Its said in many places that hes a bodhisattva. When youre in an open teaching
debate stick to the open teachings. Do not bring up Tantra.
[student: ah, Michael]
So apparently, youve failed to distinguish between whats an open teaching and
whats a secret teaching.
You failed to actually distinguish between the
appropriate time to talk Tantra and the appropriate time not to talk Tantra.
Yeah..
[student: the way youre saying, because he stated hes a bodhisattva, therefore
hes not a Buddha, maybe some of the people in the class might think that either
youre a bodhisattva or a Buddha. Isnt it the case that Buddhas are also
bodhisattvas?]
Im talking [unclear] [laughter]
[student: they are too seeking wisdom for the sake of Buddhahood.]
Totally, and..
[student: for the benefit of all beings]
Those two, those two. Now Gyalstab Je says, Okay, suppose I let you say
Maitreyas a Buddha. Y ou mean to tell me the definition doesnt fit him? He
doesnt have any desire to reach total enlightenment? Theyll say of course he
wants to reach total enlightenment. He wants total enlightenment. We should
say that. What is total enlightenment? What are the two bodies? You guys had it
in the first class.
[student; that changes it considerably by dropping out the reach.]
I know. [laughs] I got out of that one before I got in trouble.
And no one said anything. What are the two bodies of a Buddha?
[student: the form body and the wisdom body.]
Yeah, you should say Dharmakaya and Rupakaya. The Dharma body and the
form body. The form bodys mainly for who? For others or himself?
[student: for others.]
Its mainly for others. I mean the reason he appears on the planet Earth is not for
his benefit. Thats the fulfillment of others needs.
[student: all form bodies, or is there a special one form body thats not
necessarily for that?]
There is a {choko-tulku} and in fact I read it tonight and I thought of you because
[laughter] it said, Are you saying that the ultimate Nirmanakaya doesnt always
appear as a Buddhist monk? And he said, No, Im not saying that, Im not
saying that. Which implies that its true.
[student: isnt there a third the Sambogakaya?]
You can make three bodies or divide it into four bodies. Okay. Were not going
to go that far. Those two divide into two each.

[student: so Sambogakaya is part of Dharmakaya?]

Thats part of the Nirmanakaya, thats part of the form body. There are two
form bodies, there are two bodies that can be seen. One is the body he sends
down to earth and one is the body he lives in his paradise.
[student: he lives in a form body in his paradise?]
Yeah, he has a form in his paradise. He has color. You can see him if youre a
tenth level bodhisattva, you can talk to him. And thats what he looks like in his
own paradise, but when he comes to planet Earth , he looks like a monk, he has
these long ears, he has a top knot.
[student: his emanation body is sort of plural right?]
Well when you distinguish between the ultimate emanation and the other
emanations, he can emanate as a Buddha, as a tree, as
[student: he can also emanate as a number of different things simultaneously]
He always does.
[student: which are you talking about? Ultimate?]
[laughs] Well, what I said was that all his form bodies are mainly fulfilling others
needs. And then what can you say about his Dharma body?
[student: fulfilling his own needs?]
Its fulfilling his own needs. To get a Dharma body is to fulfill your own needs.
No more suffering, no more nothing. Omniscience. The Dharmakaya has
omniscience. And its
{Tibetan} its the definition of Nirvana also. Hes gotten rid of all obstacles. So
thats really all you need. The form, taking form is merely for the benefit of
others because you can teach them.
[student: [unclear] not be very effective]
Sure.
[student: how come when we see pictures of Buddhas its always Oriental?]
Oh wait a hundred years or so. Jesus, you ever see his pictures ? He looks like a
nice Caucasian white guy, you know.[laughs] He probably looked like Yassar
Arafat. You know. Seriously.
[student: what does it prove?]
What Im saying is ,you know, stick around for a while. The pictures will change.
[student: so what youre saying is were it not for the compassion of a Buddha,
they wouldnt need or have any form body at all.]
Mainly, mainly, we always say mainly. Its not the only reason. [student: or
theres no such being that has not.] The name of his body is {long [unclear ]}
which is enjoyment body which is hes enjoying himself in that body. Anyway.
[student: I dont see where you can claim that omniscience isnt directly linked to
helping others. Its the key to effectively helping others..]
It is but it is not described as the fulfillment of others benefit because it cant

communicate with others. Thats why, thats why the first step in the Lam Rim is
what? [silence] [laughter]
Okay, I think well do a Lam Rim course. By the way we are going to do a Lam
Rim. Did I tell that? Were going to athe next course will be meditation and
how, I meanthe technical, I mean well do meditating but well study the real
way to do it. Its a long book , its very interesting, its precisely how to do it.
What well meditate on is the outline of the Lam Rim Chenmo. The great Lam
Rim. Because if you have those two things, you can spend a nice life. {Shinyen
tenso}respecting your teacher, how to take yourself to your teacher. How to find
a teacher and then how to learn from him properly. And thats necessary
because hes the only laison between you and the Buddhas omniscience. So he
might as well be a Buddha even if hes not, I mean thats the argument. Thats
the only way you can communicate, thats the only window you have, the only
door that you have to the Buddhas omniscience. So be careful with that door. If
that door gets lost, you have nothe Buddha has no way of communicating to
you. So, its mainly in the form body. Anyway, thats the way its described. So
now, when you aspire, whats the first part of bodhicitta?
[student: to aspire to be a Buddha.}
Yeah, to aspire to Buddhahood. And, what is Buddhahood? The two bodies. So,
youre aspiring to fulfill your needs and others needs because youre aspiring to
the two bodies. So, Gyalstab Je says, no, everybody accepts that the Buddha is
made up of two bodies. And everybody accepts that the definition of bodhicitta
is that youre aspiring to achieve total enlightenment. So, says Gyalstab-Je to
the Sakyas, are you inventing some new kinda bodhicitta where you dont
want to reach the two bodies?
[student: wait, back up please]
Why? Oh because youre positing a bodhicitta in which you dont care about
reaching your own needs. Now why did he talk about fulfilling your own
needs?
[student: why do you need bodhicitta if youve already got it?]
Because you have to want those two bodies. Ill say it I can imagine two, two
reasons why the Sakyas are making this argument. One is that they feel what
you just said. Look, if youve already got the two bodies, whats the sense of
aspiring to the two bodies and isnt bodhicitta
[student: and if youre not in danger of losing them]
not necessary at that point. Then whats the use of aspiring, wheres the wish
come in. You dont wish for something you already have. I can see that might
be one argument. And the other argument would be, what was the other
argument? He must be so noble, he doesnt care about himself. You know, is
that what theyre trying to say? I can imagine, I think there are two flavors here.

One is theyre saying hes already achieved Buddhahood, why should he aspire
to it? And the other argument might be, well, hes so selflessly motivated, he
doesnt need, he has no wish to get anything for himself.
[student: hes already got it, hes already achieved all of it]
Thats true.
[student: maybe you need to hold on to that wish to hold your status as a
Buddha]
[student: no, cause he cant fall]
Well theres a lot of arguments, okay. One is thatwho wrote this definition of
bodhicitta?
[student: unclear] No
[student: the Buddha]
Sem kye()pa tu} Wheres that from? Its from the [b: Abhisamlamkara] Who
wrote it?
[silence]
Who wrote the jewel,[b: The Ornament of Realization?]
[laughter]
This is a Buddha defining bodhicitta. And hes not defining general bodhicitta ,
hes defining bodhicitta
[student: well wait a minute, hes not a Buddha, hes a bodhisattva, hes a
bodhisattva defining bodhicitta so it would make sense that he would define it
as..]
And then in the next line, he says, { Te..(..) mey}which means, Im going to
divide bodhicitta into more categories and the last three are the bodhicitta the
Buddhas have. So he defines as bodhicitta as wanting to fulfill your own needs
and wanting to reach Buddhahood. He says all bodhicitta has that. And then he
says Buddhas have this point too. So Maitreya himself has {sem kye}. Maitreya
has said that Buddhas have bodhicitta . And in the same breath, he said, half of
bodhicitta is the wish for total enlightment.
[student: well how many are there total ?]
What?
[student: ah, wishes?]
I think you, {de ya.(..).}
Laughter.
Twenty two I think it is. Twenty two. Ill check it for you.
Huh? Yeah, I will. Thats in my [unclear]. At least I know where. Okay, so
anyway, Ill leave you with that. Thats all I can say . It appears to beI mean
the bottom line okay, my teacher would never tell me these things. I t seems to
me that a Buddha never loses his desire to be a Buddha. That I think is the point.
He never loses his, his wish to fulfill his own needs as well as others needs. He

never loses his wish to fulfill both the needs. Even after his have been fulfilled
and the others have been fulfilled.
[student: well thats not going to be for a long time. Are you using that in the
sense that once youve achieved that, theyre fulfilled whether the others partake
of that or not?]
I dont say that for that reason but apparently he has fulfilled others needs
completely already.
[student: or has the ability to. [unclear].]
You have to chew, you have to chew on it, okay. I wont resolve them for you.
I think this is something you have to think about.
[student: it would help to know more about the nature of a Buddha.]
That we will reach in the eighth chapter. Were in the first chapter.
[student: so basically what youre saying is that bodhisattvas are two kinds, nonBuddhas and Buddhas because they, even Buddhas have not stopped their
aspiration to fulfill the needs of self and others.
Yeah, thats true. But normally in Tibetan in the books, bodhisattvas as oppose
to Buddhas... a person who has bodhicitta is not a, theyre both people who have
bodhicitta. Its just normally, {jangchub tsema } is as oppossed to {sangye}. They
are different. They are exclusive classes.
[student: even though they both have the characteristics that make a person a
bodhisattva.]
Right.
[student: on page five of the notes you said that therefore there are Buddha and
non-Buddha bodhisattvas.]
No, I dont think so.
It doesnt, technically they both have bodhicitta.
Technically its bodhicitta that makes you a bodhisattva. But in practice and in the
teachings, and when you say bodhisattva, you mean a [unclear] and a Buddha is
not a [unclear].
[student: so would you summarize your main.]
[ Laughter.]
Well take a break. The point is this, and we still didnt cover the second part
which is what? Maybe theyre making this argument because theyre saying
Jampa is a
[student: a bodhisattva]
A bodhisattva. We havent even gotten to that yet.
[student: but he just said that he was a bodhisattva according to the open
teachings.]
Yeah but what theyre saying is, Your argument is wrong even if hes either.
To say that he has no wish to fulfill his own needs is wrong, whether you think
hes a Buddha or whether you think hes a bodhisattva. So, weve covered the

first part, what? Even if hes a Buddha, he still has the desire to fulfill his own
needs. Its not like noble to ignore your own needs, and you never lose the
desire to fulfill your own needs.
[student: and the reason he has the desire to fulfill his own needs is because he
has two bodies, one of which fulfills his needs, one of which fulfills others.]
Yeah. Because he has the desire for Buddhahood, total enlightenment, which has
two parts, and one of them is fulfilling his own needs. He has.because
bodhicitta is defined as wanting to reach total enlightenment.
Total
enlightenment means the two bodies. One of those two bodies is the fulfillment
of his own needs. He still wants it. Can you still want something after youve
already got it? Can you still aspire if you have the thing? Thats where we all, I
have difficulty too. Its a difficult answer.
[student: not only that but the whole concept of the Buddha as a being offor
lack of a better way of expressing it, a simultaneity . Anything that has the
concept of reaching for, attaining, just disappears, because theres no]
Well, yeah.
[student:: yes, because theres no..]
So he doesnt have mental functions anymore.
[student: no, he doesnt].
Everyone has mental functions.
[student: if its a conceptual mind and if this isnt a concept, I dont know what is.]
No desirewell, no. Well, thats a pretty good statement. Lets think about it
while were eating.
[Laughter]
You cant get out of a debate.
[All talking].
Why, why would it be wrong to say that he doesnt have any wish to fulfill his
own needs if hes only a bodhisattva? Hes only a tenth level bodhisattva.
[student: because they havent been fulfilled yet completely.]
Thats pretty simple. And you can also say because obviously hes a tenth level
bodhisattva, he has
[student: renunciation]
Bodhicitta.
Which is defined in half a dozen definitions, he wants total
enlightenment. Total enlightenment means the two bodies. And one of the two
bodies is the fulfillment of his own needs. So if he wants the two bodies, he
wants to fulfill his own needs.
[student: can you also say that by definition bodhicitta is the want to alleviate
suffering]

Yeah.
[student: so if you have bodhicitta by definition, you want to alleviate
suffering.]
Yeah. So if you say hes not interested in his own needs because hes Mahayana
or because he has bodhicitta, thats obviously wrong. Why? I mean, because hes
a bodhisattva.
Why? Because he has bodhicitta. Bodhicitta is to want to fulfill his own needs.
Its not contradictory to want to reach happiness yourself. And if you want to
reach it for other people. Its not contradictory. Its in fact quitemy first
thought is to say well, when you plant corn you get weeds, dont worry about
your own needs, youre going to get them.
Working for other people,
everything you want, youll get. Even in the world, even in the worldly sense.
[student: so how do the weeds relate to that?]
The weeds are what things you want and the corn is what other people want. So
if you work for other peoples needs, youre going to get your own by accident,
by the way. You cant avoid it. You will get everything you want. Now, the last
thing tonight, theres a point in the debate where somebody says, Well, I dont
know why youre talking about secret teachings because the open teachings
dont accept the secret teachings. All right. And I dont know about you, no its
not a Sakya, its just somebody says. Okay. Somebody says, Well, how can
you prove that the secret teachings are valid ? They werent even mentioned in
the open teachings. And, I dont know about you , but this is a big question.
[student: only for those who are only part of the open teachings.]
Yeah, right. Well mainly the question is from them, Well then, can you prove
that tantra exists if you restrict yourself to the open teachings? Yes, you can.
And he gives two quotations. One is from a brief commentary which is
Haribhadra. Haribhadra says, he mentions the secret teachings. And he says,
This is also valid for the other side of the teachings. Meaning the secret
teachings. And thats in your reading, so if anyone ever asks you, where does it
say, Haribhadra is accepted as the greatest commentator on Asanga, on the [b:
Jewel of Realization]. So you cant say that no one ever mentioned it. And then
theres another, the one I like the best, and somebody asked me, why talk
about all this stuff? To me, its the closest thing to my heart. This is what, I was
assigned this debate for my pre- geshe debate.
This was the one I had to research. You have to write a debate, you have to
write a flow chart of every possible objection by your opponent and you put in
[unclear] letters, and someone writes it on a scroll, a professional, what do you
call those? Calligraphers, writes it on a scroll, and you hang it on your door and
you, and you memorize it for three or four months. You memorize every
possible answer. The opponents only allowed to say yes or no. Its a real

computer flow chart. You know. But, if he says yes, I have to go this way, if he
says no, I have to go this way. So you have to memorize every possibility. And
you have to have a scriptural quotation for every possibility. So I had to have
one for this point.
And someone had, the text that Id mentioned that
Dharmakirti had mentioned, they say tantra exists because because the
miracles described in tantra exist because Dharmakirti, in his book called [b: The
Commentary on Logic] ..
[student: commentary on what?]
On logic, of all things. He gives a. he gives a defense of tantra. He says that
tantra exists and this is why it works. I was very happy to see that. Dharmakirti
is, is accepted, hes a {dodepa} half of his book is Hinayana. And hes accepting
tantra.
[student: [unclear]
I put it in your reading cause I thought you might like to read it. Try about page
four I would guess. Nope. How about page three. Three, theres a little verse at
the bottom. Do you have one Kellie? Youre right? So it says, this is from the
[b: Commentary on Valid Perception] that is his commentary on logic. Thats
Dharmakirti, who is writing from a Hinayana viewpoint. And Mahayana, its a
mixture. So, he says, There do exist the ones who know the tantra and can in
cases use the secret words with success. These are the proof, these are the
proof, you dont have to worry about it, but hes proving that holy words have
causes. Hes debating someone who says that the word OM, the holy word OM
is uncaused. So you dont have to worry about those other as proof. Its mainly
the power of the one who taught it and following his precepts. So its very
interesting. Dharmakirti not only says that tantra exists, he says if you want a
miracle, but you know you can say that a miracle, its not just flying in the sky or
something like that, which happens to be the miracle he was talking about, but
you could say a miracle of reaching a diamond body in this life before you die,
of reaching paradise in this life before you die. Hes saying it depends on two
things, the tantra must have been taught by a very holy being and then whats
the second requirement? Whats the last one on the page? You have to obey the
rules of that tantra.
[student: you dont have to be a monk then?]
Not at all. Tantra was designed for non monks. Tantra was designed for
business people in India.
[Laughter]
[student: why do we want to learn tantra, because we want to reach
enlightenment in this life]
Well, I want to say, let me say this in case I die. I asked him, I asked him if we
did another a third course about the Lam Rim , you know the outline of the

Lam Rim and everything, do you think that this group could take an initiation in
the summer, because he often gives one in the summer. For tantra. And he
said, Bring me a list. And I said, If I bring you a list, can that group of people
come and request that we get that initiation? And he said, Okay. So I dont
think he would agree to have us come on mass and ask if he intended to say no.
So, let me work out the details
[student: do we have to ask three times?]
Well.If he says no, then we stay there. I mean its happened we were stuck
there. We didnt move.
[cut]
[student: you mean physically did not move?]
[Laughter]
Butits this. Its like, its a very, its a very ambitious thing to do but its the
timing in his life. His health is not good. And I think its important. And I think
its, youve had { unclear} what I mentioned earlier and youve had the
minimum. [student: [unclear] if he did it in the summer ] So technically
speaking, its only permission to study it. Its only permission to start. And then
[unclear]. But it really is something we should do. When he first taught this,
fifteen twenty years ago, I remember, we were in Virginia, somebody raised
their hand and said, I heard if you dont keep it you will go to hell. And he
said, Well at least when you go to hell you can brag, Im not here cause I
murdered somebody.
[Laughter]
[cut]
[student: before you take the vow can you find out what it is?]
Lets talk about it. I mean, well basically its this. I mean basically whats being
offered is some special practice which will succeed, if it was taught by a holy
being, which it was, and if you follow that, which is always the failure problem
you know. [Laughs] .
[student: but what about preliminaries?]
Well talk about it. I mean if , you think about it and tell me next week or
whenever whos interested and then let me talk to Rinpoche cause this is not
something I can do on my own. I have to ask him.
[student: no, I mean in terms of having taken refuge]
Well, that Id also like to see if people are interested. Tell me next week and I
would like to ask him to give us the vows. Most of you probably already had
refuge vow and bodhisattva vow, but I think it would be nice to take them and
Id like to take them again. And I think it would be a sign of our intelligence if
after studying it , we said, Well we realize we didnt keep this so good and we

didnt really know what we were doing, how about if we take it again. I think
that would be wonderful. So if you think about it and let me know next week
maybe well take a I dont want to announce it in class and have everybody
raise hands and maybe you tell me privatelydont forget cos Im very senile
and {unclear]. [student: about tantra?]
About both. Would you like to go down before the end of December and take
refuge vows and bodhisattva vows . I mean His Holiness taught it in Arizona, I
dont know who, the people who were there. You were there. People were all
nervous, saying, Well I dont know if I could do it. [unclear]
[Laughter]
[student: its not true he said no.]
He thought about it carefully and somebody said, If Im a Christian can I take
it? He thought about it for two days and He said, Yeah, I dont see any
problem.
[student: if that person is a Christian and takes bodhisattva vows ]
Well, who knows.
[All talking]
I mean it wasnt that easy. I mean there was a big discussion and He clarified it
all and then he[unclear] in the end He clarified points.
[student: I hear its mainly the power of the lama, am I understanding it correctly,
I mean the reason that it worked is that youre receiving some, because of the
quality of your teacher and the power from your teacher?]
Dont think of it so much as the power of the one who taught it but concentrate
on the word mainly, and its what in Buddhist logic we call {myinga} by saying
mainly, youre implying what?
[student: unclear]
Its not enough. [Laughs] Concentrate on that part. Oftentimes in Buddhist
scripture, they say its mainly this because they want you to concentrate on what
[unclear]] on the other part. Its mainly the power of the other person which is
to say in Buddhist scripture, once you get used to Buddhist scripture, but, by
god, if you dont do the right thing, forget it. If you dont from your side fulfill
your commitment, you might as well forget it.
[student: and a majority of that is the power of the person.]
Yeah, but what Im trying to say is that ,oh, the reason that they say mainly, is
not to emphasize Him. Its the unspoken emphasis on you.
[student: is it more than 50%?]
Yeah. But it means, what Im trying to say is dont concentrate on that aspect,
concentrate on the aspect, when I say, its mainly the lamas power, you should
think, why is it he say mainly, what else is there.
[student: which is your own practice and understanding.]

And the following of commitments. Keeping the commitments. And the results
are, are, Ill tell you and then we stop, this is a very holy place to stop. This is our
last formal class, which is, if things are empty, if the guy at work is empty, if he
truly has no nature of his own, then, if what you see in him is forced on you by
your past deeds, by your karma. Then is there any karma which you can collect
in this life before you die, to see that person as a Buddha? You know, to be in
paradise. Is it possible to collect such a powerful karma in this life, before you
die?
[student: to see the other person as a Buddha?]
To see the whole, the whole world as something unusual. Is there such a
karma? And Im not talking about pretending that the world is this. Im talking
about collecting the amount of karma that the world would become that.
[student: arent you [unclear] by then?]
Well, what Im saying is that its the fact that weve been going over and over
and over and over about the asshole at work. That, that.and his emptiness
that makes tantra feasible. And thats all. Goodnight. Our next class is a review.
We dont have a class..[student: no]
[student: dont we have confession?]
Yeah, no class on Monday. [student: no class on Monday?] No class on this
coming Monday. The next class is Thursday and then your final is on the
twentieth. By the way, on the night of your final there will be another class
going on upstairs and I want you to close your ears. [student: are [unclear]
tomorrow night at the [unclear] house?] Were doing Friday night if you want
to come, weve reached the actual death meditation.
[student: you said in the beginning that you were going to explain how and why
tantra works.]
I just did.
[Laughs, Laughter]
I just told you that. Dharmakirti says, Thats the initiation thats required. You
have to have an authentic tantra from an authentic source and then from your
side, you must follow it strictly. And then it will work because [unclear]. If
things werent empty, you couldnt even brush your teeth. Its a fact, nothing
would change. If your teeth were like mine, self existently yellow, then you
could never make them white.
[prayer: short mandala]
sashi pukyi jukshing metok tram
rirab lingshi nyinde gyenpa di,
sangye shingdu mikte ulwar gyi,
drokun namdak shingla chupar shok.
Idam guru ratna mandalakam niryatayami.

[prayer: dedication]
gewa diyi kyewo kun,
sunam yeshe tsok-dzok shing,
sunam yeshe lejung way,
dampa kunyi topar shok.
Be happy and rejoice about what youre doing because theres two hundred and
fifty million people on this country whos worrying about these things which are
inevitable, you know, death, and the loss of all your possessions and your house.
First of all, whos even aware that its flying by and that theyre falling off the
waterfall? And then secondly, who has anything that they can do about it? So
rejoice that youre doing it and then really take upon some kind of intention in
the future that you conduct your own classes? Thats the idea, so that you, you
know dont be lazy for me. I mean, be not be lazy for your future students.
And look at it that way and dont lose that intention to do that in the future. It
doesnt have to beI hope it is in a room like this, but it could also be people at
work. You know, we flirted with Buddhism for many years with just people
were just sitting next to at work. And you dont start saying, Dharmakaya,
you know.
[Laughter]
[student: do we have homework?]
[student: walk up to your boss and say, Excuse me, [unclear] [laughter]
[student: in many ways it really works, cause I do it with a friend of min I
dont see her any more.]
So it didnt work.
[Laughter]
[student: no, its me who decided not to keep in touch with her any more.]
Oh, by the way, one thing, I remember the Dalai Lama, do you remember your
friend, okay, Ill give you an example. When these young mothers in Arizona
used to, these really sincere young women, they asked Him, Whats the best
way to teach Buddhism to our children ? What did he say? [unclear] Do you
remember? [unclear] [student: by example] And He said, Theyre too young
to understand words and logic and presentations, but if they see you acting
Buddhist theyll start learning. You know. I think thats [unclear]
Okay.

Buddhist refuge
Course 2 Tape 11
Geshe Michael Roach
December 13, 1993
Transcriber: Kate Roberts
[unclear]
[student: but its not really the cause though, its just one follows the next.]
We call that the main cause, in the way that the corn sprout in August is the
cause of the corn sprout in September. It grows into it. That is the main cause.
The main cause of mind is the mind of the previous moment.
[student: but, eye awareness, thats a sense perception and so if by looking here,
and then I m looking here, how is looking here the cause]
The content changes but the, but the fact that youre aware of what the eye is
seeing doesnt change. And thats what awareness is. Its visual awareness, not
necessarily that you keep them on the same object. But it might be easier if you
think of it as keeping on the same object. So lets say youre staring at the same
object , you see what I mean, its the same cause. The cause is each moment
causes the next moment of each moment of consciousness causes the next
moment of consciousness. And then theres no this is the direct cause of this
and this is the direct cause of this. And this has to be continuous. This has to
bump up against that moment. And thats what the meaning of direct cause is,
that theres nothing between them. Accept that as a priority, it has to be part of
the first moment of mind that are closer to the second moment of mind than
other parts of the first moment of mind. Because if that were not the case, theyd
be, theyd be they match and there would never be any movement of the
mind.
[student: is that the same argument used for re-incarnation?]
Oh, its related. Its based on the same fact that consciousness has to cause
consciousness. If you accept that for two seconds, milliseconds in time, youve
just accepted past lives.
[student: what? Would you do that again?] [another student: but isnt that where
the [unclear] a little bit ]
Once you accept that consciousness has to come from consciousness and not
from dirt, not from the parents love and semen, not from any other cause but
mind, then you have to accept past lives.
[student: except for the question of the original generation which is not

addressed]
You mean the first time it ever happened or something like that?
[student: yes, because if you have, if it has to have come from a previous
consciousness, then thats not a good argument because, because for exactly the
reasons that youre saying, that it came from something so what might that be?]
I say it came from consciousness because it has to come from something similar.
Same stuff. Thats true of apple trees, thats true with telephone poles, thats true
with vases.
[student: unless you can say what it came from .. ]
You mean the original cause, the first cause, there is no first cause. Which doesnt
mean it has no cause. It doesnt mean it has no cause.
[student: thats not logical]
Its absolutely logical. Its not logical to a Westerner who has the, the what do
you call it . bias or the prejudice that you grew up with. Its quite logical, its
perfectly logical. Its just you didnt hear it anywhere. Your parents didnt tell
you about it when you were little. Your mind is beginningless because any point
of mind you can point to mustve had a mind before it to cause it. And if they
had, youd feel quite comfortable with it. And maybe not for very good reasons.
[student: okay, weve heard you make fun of people who are trying to advance
a point , and you say, Well, where does that come from? And the guy says,
Well such and such. And you back them up and finally they say, Well I dont
know. And to me youve just said, Well I dont know]
No, no, I can point to any moment of mind, any moment of consciousness I say,
has to have come from a previous moment of consciousness.
[student: Mexican standoff, but I defer.] [Laughs]
[prayer: refuge]
[prayer: short mandala]
Okay, Im gonna to were going to review, thats where we are, right?
Anymore questions about this homework?
[student: yeah, .]
[student: would you just go over the whole thing? So I can get it back in time for
the test.]
Oh, todays homework. I dont mind that. I think thats wise. I think we blew
that last time. We didnt do that. What mistake has someone made if they
assume that Maitreya is already a Buddha when theyre debating whether the
person who wrote this book is doing it for his own benefit or for others. If they
assume hes a Buddha, if their argument is coming from the place that they think

Buddhas dont need to worry about themselves, then theyve already broken a
rule of debate, which is that you cant bring up tantra. You cant get into that
realm in a sutra debate. Otherwise, youre going to get very confused as you , if
youve had any exposure to it you know. So, he said, You have failed to
distinguish between what we call [{Tibetan}] which means the way which is
shared and the way which is not shared. Whats the way which is shared - The
three Principal Paths. Which is the way which is not shared. Because why is it
shared? Because you need it in tantra and you need it in sutra to get anywhere.
In fact, this is the cause for succeeding in tantra. And then he, he has failed to
distinguish between secret and non secret . Maybe hes right but he shouldnt
have brought it up in the context of the open teachings.
[student: its out of context]
Yeah, its a failure to distinguish the right time to talk about these things.
[student: so, thats the answer]
Yeah. Can a Mahayana person have the aspiration to fulfill his own needs? Of
course. And you, youve had it in several, several different ways. Youve had it
as the person who in the Lam Rim, he follows the lesser person then the
medium persons motivation. Youve had it in the refuge when he, he also
shares the motivation of the lower two, but not as an exclusive motivation.
[laughter]
And Dharmakirti, he said, he just say, [answers telephone, Hi, this is Roach, ya,
ya, Im in the middle of a class but I have to tell you so Ill call you later okay?
Good, Its a deal, okay, yeah, bye.]
[student: Michael, before you go on to the next question, isnt it a point that a
Mahayana person has the has to, not can. must]
[student: he has to have bodhicitta]
Yeah, and apparently, people still . I asked Rinpoche and went through it with
him and he got {tunmo} with me. Tunmo is what? Do you know what Tunmo
means?
[student: waah!]
Tunmo is the honorific for ..
[student: [unclear German word] as they say in Germany]
[laughter]
.a lama is rough on you. You know, its his wrathful aspect. So you know, he,
I asked him three times over and he doesnt like that at all. He doesnt like it the
first time. You know, why a Buddha still has bodhicitta. And its like, Are you
crazy, he doesnt care about other beings? But, he said, Ariel brought it up in
the classroom well, she said, If he has the aspiration to Buddhahood, the
aspiration, is almost by definition, when you dont have something and youre
aspiring to get something. And in Tibetan its {ma toba .} So I said, Well

does he have {ma toba} He says, No.

He says, He has aspiration but its not the kind of aspiration where you try to
get something you dont have. So, I said, Well, isnt that the meaning of
aspiration?
He said, No, hes got the kind of aspiration where he just wants to be a
Buddha.
And she said, Well thats not aspiration unless there is a chance to get
Buddhahood so he could so he could aspire to keep his Buddhahood. He wants
to help others and he wants to be a Buddha. And thats not that sounds
[unclear] He never loses the want to be a Buddha. And we call that want{dunya}
and its an unusual use of the word aspiration. So I think you have to leave it like
that. Its not aspiration in its normal sense. It isnt something that you dont
have.
[student: its already having it and still wanting to have it.]
Well, logically, this is exactly what we do in the debate ground. get to this point.
All the students agree. We sit there and say well, thats all it can be. Thats all it
can mean. What else could it mean here? And then we go and, somebody,
actually what happens normally is you go and read a scripture and suddenly you
see oh, this guy said exactly what we just said. Thats normally what happens.
You figure it out on the debate ground and the next day you find it in a tenth
century text. So its just pretty much has to be like that. So your questions were
good, valid.
[student: we could ask some more]
[Laughter]
Thats what this review is for.
[student: so before Buddhahood, bodhicitta is the aspiration to become a Buddha
for the benefit of all beings .]
That you havent reached yet.
[student: to become a Buddha, the key operative word here is become. Okay,
then after one becomes a Buddha, bodhicitta is still there but theres a nuance to
it which is to stay a Buddha even though you couldnt unbecome a Buddha , to
stay as a Buddha or would like to be a Buddha. That makes sense.]
Thats the only logical thing.
[student: so bodhicitta is there in both cases and the wish to help others doesnt
change so its just the understanding of being a Buddha. That makes sense]
All right.
[student: can you go over the whole exam so we know what to expect]
Oh, and the last step, oh, what did Dharmakirti say was necessary to [unclear] is
very easy, should have been ... and hes speaking specifically about mantras that
should have been composed by a holy being and from our side, you have to

follow the rules of that practice. So this applies to all tantric practice. Not just the
mantras. The tantra has to have been instituted by a holy being.
[student: a holy being, not a Buddha?]
Its all it says is {gype dampa}that usually means a Buddha.
[student: in the text, all it talks about is the teacher, the one who gives the
initiation, the preceptor.]
Okay.
[student: is it referring to the {lung} or is it referring to the initial origination of
the tantra?]
[student: that was one of the qualifications of a lama, incidentally, that he be a
holy being.]
[All talking]
[student: could you just review number four the quiz question?]
Whats it say?
[student: does emptiness itself have parts? How so?]
Just about everybody got that right. Does anybody want to explain?
You prove the emptiness and you prove the parts of space [unclear]
[All talking and laughing-Geshe Michael unclear]
No, it was alright, the one where youre supposed to put the part of mental
objects, not, not physical and then the other one was emptiness not space.
Maybe you confused space and emptiness because that happens a lot. I mean
great scholars are confused about that.
[student: Michael, on that last question, the Dharmakirti question, you said, the
way you worded it on the exam, it sounded like you gave the Tibetan class two
distinct terms.]
Was it, I dont remember.
[student: the two must be present, name them.]
Yeah, dont worry about it. Its what you wrote. It will be there.
[student: I didnt say anything about holy beings, I just said teacher.]
No, teachers alright.
[student: on the homework for today, under two A, is a simple yes a good
answer or is that a little lame?]
Whats the question?
[student: Suppose Maitreya is a Buddha, does he still have the wish for
enlightenment?]
In this case, a simple yes answer is acceptable. Normally, its not good to answer
like that. Anybody else?
[student: I have a question from way back. Do we have to memorize the long
definitions of the Greater Way?]
No.

[student: this is coming from the quizzes right?]

The final only comes from quizzes.
[Everyone talking]
[student: so the answer to two B]
[student: so if Maitreyas already a Buddha if yes, does the wish fit the short
definition for the wish for enlightenment? I think a simple yes may not be as
welcome.]
Ah, thats okay. Obviously, its preferable if you did show some cause. He still
wants to help, he still wants to be a Buddha. Were not going to say become.
You could define it for a bodhisattva would be all right. Maybe you could get
out of it that way.
[student: say that again.]
That a bodhisattva, if you decided this way you might get out of the whole
problem. The definition of a bodhisattva is to want to be a Buddha.
[student: that would stretch it a little better]
Yeah you stretch the word.
[student: would you answer the question, when you have the wish for
enlightenment, you achieve the dharmakaya and the dharmakaya is the
enjoyment body?]
No, those are separate. The enjoyment body is the form body which is the .
[student: the nirmanakaya or rupakaya?]
Yeah, the form body has two parts. Theres the part of his beautiful form in
paradise then theres the part of his form as he shows it on earth.
[student: so which is the enjoyment body?]
The one thats in his paradise.
[student: sambogakaya?]
Samboga. A lot of people get that mixed up. A lot of lamas say samboba and
they mix it up.
[student: so when you say hes trying to pursue his own, fulfill his own needs
and youre using the explanation of pursuing enjoyment body ..]
Oh, thats only for others needs. Thats principally for others needs. The
function of the form body principally is to help other people. Its the fulfillment
of other peoples needs . Its the only way he can teach.
[student: and which provides him with the enjoyment body]
It is the enjoyment body.
[student: it is the enjoyment body. So ..]
The fulfillment of others needs and the enjoyment body are the same thing.
[student: so, in terms of, in terms of the wish, right ....]

Oh, what gives him the enjoyment body? Mainly the collection of merit as
opposed to the collection of wisdom.
[student: what I was trying to get to was using that body to define how the wish
fulfills his needs. See what I mean?]
No. The wish , no.
[student: it doesnt work that way?]
No, no. The dharmakaya is the fulfillment of his needs mainly, principally.
[student: in what way?]
Omniscience. And removing all his realizing all objects and removing all
obstacles. Thats fulfills his benefit. Thats mainly his benefit. And the fact that he
shows himself which is the whole rupakaya part or form body, is mainly for
other people. Its mainly the fulfillment of other peoples needs.
[student: is somewhere in there is it implied that since it is mainly for the benefit
of other beings, then, otherwise were it not for that, its not necessary for a
Buddha or a being on that level to have any kind of form body at all.]
Yeah, mainly its for other beings.
[student: right. So, were it not for the bodhicitta involved, they could exists in
some sort of dharmakaya form and thats it, and the only beings who could
contact them are beings in that form.]
[student: I still think thats a really artificial distinction. I mean how much good
are you without omniscience?]
Oh not much. And thats why they say principally.
[student: yeah]
Or maybe you feel more comfortable with direct benefit. Manifest benefit. You
see thats not improper in the debate to say you know the form body is the
manifest benefit.
But the driver behind the form body is obviously the
dharmakaya.
[student: I missed the first class and maybe Im just a dummy.
Whats
dharmakaya?]
Oh, when you divide the bodies into two, when you divide them also into three
or four, theres mainly the form body or the dharma body. The dharma body
consists of His omniscience and the emptiness of that omniscience. And then the
form body consists of two different bodies. The one He shows on earth and the
one He, and then the one that lives in His paradise. His physical manifestation.
Whether it be in His own paradise or whether it be on planet earth for the
benefit of us. Those two form bodies are called the nirmanakaya. The
nirmanakaya is the one He sends down to earth. Nirman means to send down.
Its a movie, movie theatre, a video body. The other one is the sambogakaya
which means you know, the body which is blissing out in its paradise. Its the
enjoyment body. Then dharmakaya is dharmakaya.

[student: samboga means bliss out?]

Yeah. It means {zopa long chupa?} to enjoy to its fullest and literally.
[student: so he also [unclear]]
Im sure he does by helping others. People can learn directly from sambogakaya
but it has to be very high bodhisattvas. Like?
[student: Maitreya?]
No. Asanga.
[student: when you say its a body, does it what does it look like? Does it
physically look anything like a person?]
Well thats a good point and I like Thubten Jenpa. I like him for one reason. He
thinks about translations. He doesnt accept the old ones. He calls it the
embodiment. In Arizona he kept using that word and I kinda like it. Meaning,
you know, not that ..
cause the dharmakaya, the body of dharma, what does that mean? Theres no
thing you can see. Body normally means you can see. Or that he has four
bodies running around. I used to get really confused about that. The word is
body, the word is four bodies, but obviously they arent like these kinds of
bodies. Their all just aspects of the same being. Theyre like the five heaps of
that being.
[student: so the sambogakaya and the dharmakaya are not like human forms,
theyre some kind of]
Right. Theyre described as visible but not matter.
[student: the dharmakaya also?]
No. The two form bodies are visible but theyre not what we call in Tibetan
{pembo?}
Which means particulate matter. They are stuff but not matter. Theyre visible
but not matter. Theyre touchable but not matter. Theyre physical but not
matter. Thats difficult.
[student: so if you perceive emptiness directly and with the individual analysis
you see the dharmakaya, what does it look like?]
It has its emptiness. When I say see, I mean, you know [student: perceived]
perceive in your mind.
[student: dharmakaya encompasses both form body and dharma body.]
No. Dharmakaya only is the half which includes his omniscience and the
emptiness of that omniscience.
[student: so thats sambogakaya]
No. Sambogakaya is the bliss, the physical body in His paradise.
[student: the two bodies which can then be divided into two, with each being
divided into two.]
[student: Im going back to the first one.]

I dont mind.
[student: you, and I took down the quote, you repeated it.]
I hate it when you quote me. [Laughs]
[student: what makes something an ultimate refuge, and I quote, is a quality of
being the final goal achieved with regards to the journey along the path.]
No, what makes some..
[student: [laughter] this was a quote.]
No, what makes something as an ultimate refuge is when the journey along the
path has been completed. Thats the definition. [student: redundant but its good]
No, if you are in a debate they say, well there is a reason, you know, they are
trying to make it try to emphasize [unclear] or they are trying to emphasize
that is not the path that hes on. So you could say
[student: the final refuge is that the end of the journey towards to the final
refuge?]
I have one question okay. [laughter]
The last three bhumis, the last three bodhisattva levels. Normally people get
confused because Im confused. I looked up, I used the computer and I want to
put a plug in for the computer. I was able in a traffic jam in the Lincoln Tunnel to
look up every reference to the eighth bodhisattva level in a few minutes and
read them all. And, and understand everything that the book says about them
and its a thousand pages you know. And then I just cut it out , cut them all out
and paste them together and put it in another file Now I can read you every
reference to the eighth bhumi and theyre all interesting. They shed a lot of light
on it. And they explain why I was confused. So, here we go. The first section I
cut out says that, and you dont have to write them all, it may be too much for
you to write it down. It says that a person whos on a pure level such as eighth,
ninth, tenth, bodhisattva levels, in their, in the period in which theyre out of
meditation on emptiness, right, when theyre not in direct meditation on
emptiness, things appear to them as truly existing but they dont believe it. So
that was the first thing he said. And heres the one I think kinda helps the most,
the next one. It says according to our own system which is who?
[student: Tsongkapa]
Yeah, dont forget even {Khenpo? Denpa Dhargye} when he teaches Sautantrika,
he puts on a Sautantrika hat. And he says, According to our own system, a
person who has not been on a lower track before, there are people who start
on a Mahayana track, you know, its not necessary that you start on one of the
lower tracks, you could start on the Mahayana track. So hes saying, lets talk
about a {menla mowa musowa?} it means a person who started right off on
track number three from the beginning.
[student: I thought you had to do them in chronological..]

No, you dont have to go up through the three tracks. You can start right on
Mahayana track, in fact they encourage you to do that. They say it saves time.
You can start right from the first path of the Mahayana track. Hes talking about
a person like that. Why, why, why did he say that? He doesnt want to he
wants to isolate that person who is going through the bhumis without ever
having been an arhat before. Because hes been an arhat before, hes gotten rid
of all his mental affliction obstacles meaning mental afflictions and their seeds
before. So, it would a little bad it will be a bad case to try and figure out
when does a person whos only been on the bodhisattva track get rid of his
mental afflictions, which is the interesting thing. [student: and when does he]
Okay, good.
Good. So, the first thing, you know what he is. Hes a bodhisattva whos never
been on the lower track. He reaches the same level as the Hinayana arhats as
far as getting rid of his mental afflictions and their seeds, and he achieves total
Buddhahood at the same time.
[student: oh, it happens at the end]
[student: you said that originally]
Yeah, then I flipflopped.
[student: how can that be possible, that would mean that he hadnt perceived
emptiness directly]
No, no. He gets rid of his {nyun drup} his mental affliction obstacles, meaning
mental afflictions and their seeds, only at the moment in which he achieves
Buddhahood, which means that he carries them through, what?
[student: all the paths]
The last three bhumis too. He still has them on the last three bhumis. So the
point at which he has abandoned everything that a Hinayana arhat has
abandoned is not till he achieves Buddhahood. Its not until he achieves
Buddhahood that hes gotten rid of all the baggage that a lower arhat has
already gotten rid of, as far as mental affliction obstacles. But he also gets rid of
what?
[student: the obstacles to omniscience]
The omniscience obstacles. Does the lower guy get rid of those ever? No, never.
So we can say that a person whos never been on the lower track abandons the
mental affliction obstacles and the omniscience obstacles at the same time.
[student: at the same time he reaches Buddhahood]
At the moment he becomes a Buddha. Yeah. And that was my point of
confusion.
[student: so they get the nirvana and the omniscience simultaneously, whereas
someone whos already been a Hinayana
arhat gets the omniscience as
Buddhahood.]

Yeah, but this is not on your exam, Im just saying it gets a little confusing. I just
want it said. And I can correct his, now I can correct his chart. But I couldnt, I
didnt want to go on not knowing. [student: but wait a minute [unclear]] By the
way it says here, and Im going to quote it directly, it says, by the way, he quotes
the scripture to prove it, from the Tengyur, and then he says, Therefore when
a, when a bodhisattva gets rid of his mental affliction obstacles, he at the same
time gets rid of his omniscience obstacles and so, he says, at the same moment
he becomes an arhat and a Buddha.
[student: but Michael, what does that do to the path of no more learning? How
is that a path then?]
Its not a path. It never was. The path of no more learning is just a result.
[student: but thats Buddhahood so why even name it?]
Cause its called, well, I dont know. I dont know why they call it path frankly
because, by that time its really a state you reach from the first four paths. Is that
what you mean?
[student: right but its made it sound like its the last ..]
No, its not the last stage, its the result. It is the result. Lam Path number five
is the result in every case. No more learning is just the result of the first four
paths. Its called a path but dont forget a path can just mean knowledge, a state
of knowledge. It doesnt mean, you know something that gets you somewhere
necessarily.
[student: then why isnt it called omniscience.]
[student: well, no more learning is omniscience isnt it?]
Mahayana no more learning path, Mahayana arhat, Buddhahood, moment after
intense bodhisattva bhumi finishes, getting rid of your mental affliction obstacles
in this school, getting rid of your omniscience obstacles if by the way you
havent done that first one before a lower path, goes all [unclear].
[student: in this school, maybe the important quality ]
Were getting there.
[student: Mahayana arhat who was a Hinayana arhat before.]
Right, right. Now, heres an answer to another question I had. He says, this just
happened to pop up so I wrote it down. A person who has {du pa semkye} in
the form of bodhicitta in which you are actually engaging, you have that with
what paths can you have that on? He says, Youve had it from the first path of
the Mahayana track, the path of accumulation, up to, up to, up to Buddha level.
You can have that kind of bodhicitta which is engaging.
[student: the first path [unclear] goes on]
Right, obviously.
[student: we were talking about track, you were calling track..]
Mahayana track. And then he says something interesting. He says, But the

wishing form, the praying form, the form in which youre praying, and which
does not rely directly on actually engaging or taking the vows, he says you can
have that from the first path of Mahayana which is the accumulation path, all the
way to the eighth bodhisattva level. Through the seventh.
[student: how can you be a bodhisattva without having ]
So now, I asked Rinpoche. I got him in a corner. [laughs] He hasnt looked at
this stuff for thirty five years. I mean, you have to realize that too. I said listen,
Now can you have both at the same time? No, because I presented it in class,
in one of these classes as one is before you take the vows and one is after you
take the vows. Now, I now think thats probably wrong. Okay. I think its that,
that the key is on the word it depends on the vows, depends on actually
engaging. So I think you can have the mind, in the back of your mind, while
youre in the room and not directly engaging in helping other people. Looks like
that.
[student: you wouldnt have those simultaneously?]
Well thats the question. I dont know, I dont think so. I dont think youd have
them at the same moment. Maybe you alternate between them.
[student: is that not dependent on taking the vows?]
Directly dependent on taking vows. No maybe youre not at that moment
engaging in activities that are keeping your vows. We gotta study that more. I
admit that. No time tonight. Okay. Alright. And he says, the reason I brought
that up is that it says here, From the eighth level up, to the wisdom that is out
of meditation, there is no there is never a time when the object does not
appear to that person as not being self existent. Which to put it positively,
stating it, All objects are appearing not as self existent to the person whos on
the last three bhumis.
[student: appearing empty?]
Cant say empty. Theres a trick here. They are appearing, theres never a time
when objects are not appearing to a person on the last three bodhisattva bhumis
as not self existent.
[student: which means that theyre always appearing as self existent if theyre in
meditation.]
No, theres never a time when theyre not appearing not as self existent which is
to say positively, theyre always appearing as not self existent.
[student: go back.]
Wait, were going to get there. Stay with me, this is interesting. This is a little bit
too interesting.
[student: its not a review!]
Ill give you all the answers!
Laughter.

[All talking.]
Heres something it says, {Tibetan} [unclear]
A person from the eighth bodhisattva level has given up permanently the
manifest form of grasping to self existence. He has the seed but it no longer ever
happens directly.
[student: so thats the same we had that in here]
[student: go back to the first] [student: we had that as a level, as a bodhisattva
level]
Wait, listen to them all then tell me if you. Then ask me questions about it.
[student: the ripening bodhicitta? Is that the same one? Still has the seeds but
everything is gone.]
Yeah. Heres the catch okay. Heres why I get confused. He says, Now Im
going to talk about whether or not you can say that this book that were
studying, which is what?
[Laughter]
[Everyone talking!]
Were studying a commentary on the Prajnaparamita. Its Asangas book. The
Ornament of Realization. He says, some debater comes up and says this is a
Prasangika book. This book is Prasangika. And the way he beats him is , he
says, Oh, well I guess that this book says that you get rid of your mental
affliction obstacles at the eighth level. Which means what? What does that
imply?
[student: that the Prasangikas say that you get rid of the mental afflictions
obstacles at the eighth level.]
The eighth level, okay. See what I mean? Thats the debate. Thats pretty clear,
at least to me.
[Laughs]
Thats all. So it means that the reason I was confused is I just got out of
Madyamika a couple of years ago, Prasangika, and they taught us in that class at
the eighth level you get rid of the mental afflictions and all the seeds, but not in
this course. Okay. Next thing is that theres never a time when the compassion
of a person at the eighth level doesnt realize that the beings its focused on are
empty.
[student: again, never, not ]
Yeah. Its always seeing them as empty. They look, they look, they look like
theyre not empty but he knows they are. Heres the last one then well really
go to the review. {Depa lu ga} In this system, {sen jun..} the sentient beings
that the compassion is looking at appear to be
both self existent and also appear to be not self existent. [laughter] The sentient
beings that this [unclear] is focused on both appear to be self existent and also

appears to be not self existent

[student: to whom?]
To a person on the eighth level. Thats what I want to get to.
[student: simultaneously?]
Yes.
[student: I thought only Buddhas saw emptiness ...]
Right! Good, good, good. So what its saying is this. On the eighth level up,
theres never a time when the bodhisattva isnt directly aware that hes crazy.
That things are an illusion. And that awareness is called things appearing to him
as self existent. And things appearing to him at the same time as not being self
existent. Just that thinking that way. But its not like the Buddha because a
Buddha is seeing a horse and a stick at exactly the same time. Hes like some
kind of unbelievable spectator who sees the deceptive reality and the real thing
at the same time. Which is almost incomprehensible. Who could come up to a
magic show and see the stick as a stick and the stick as an elephant at the same
time.
[student: this is like the latecomer.]
No.
[student: not the Buddha but the eighth level up]
Its the eighth level up. It is.
[student: its like a non Buddha thats why they say a non Buddha]
[student: no its not]
[student: all hes seeing is emptiness]
Who?
[student: its an emptiness meditation]
No, hes saying the late, oh, youre right. Youre right. Hes more like the
magician. So thats all. Now I really will go through the final. Just dont write
down the question. That would be tacky.
[Laughter]
[student: once studying Lam Rim I was taught that you have to develop the
motivation
of the three schools, the first, then the middle then the higher.]
Oh, in the Lam Rim, you mean in sequence, in order?
[student: yeah]
[student: you have to have renunciation and bodhicitta.]
Ah, thats true.
[student: so how can you go straight through to Mahayana and not go through
the lesser scopes?]
Well dont forget this is a whole track . Oh, getting renunciation and getting
bodhicitta is Mahayana track.

[student: so as soon as you start Mahayana you spontaneously have gotten ..]
True renunciation and true bodhicitta are created at the same time. As opposed
to
goosebump renunciation and sugarcane bodhicitta.
[student: right at the outset of the path]
Yeah.
[student: goosebump renunciation?]
Theres a thing called goosebump renunciation. Thats what you get when your
mother dies. Seriously. Everyone gets that. And for two months youre moral
and youre aware of the impermanence of life and youre very sensitive to
people and you and everything is really religious. You are for a short period,
youre like, really aware of the high truths and of whats important and whats
not important. And then it wears out and it wears off. Thats why its called
goosebump,its not real but its very close. When somebody really close to you
dies, especially your mother .
[student: does it happen with your father?]
I say especially with your mother. You know unless youre one of these people
who had terrible experiences with their mother. But its very rare. Normal,
normal people. Normal experiences. Alright. Give a brief definition of the
perfection. dont write this down!
[Laughter]
Well just go around. This is fun. I mean I wanted to do this upstairs but we
didnt have room.
Ah, definition of perfection of wisdom.
[student: its a perception of emptiness which is linked with a desire filled with
love to help all sentient beings.]
The wish for enlightenment.
[student: under the influence of bodhicitta.]
Yeah. Please dont write this down. Just listen. You can remember. You can get
the tape and play it.
[Laughter]
Whats the root text for our study?
[student: The Ornament Of Realization]
Yeah. Who spoke it?
[student: Maitreya spoke it to Asanga.]
Yeah. What are , notice I ask what are the estimated dates, its his, I mean God,
who knows.
[student: three hundred fifty]
Yeah, three hundred fifty A.D. Now I want to ask, John, who wrote the Tibetan
monastic commentary that we are studying?

[ John: Ah, Haribadra]

The Tibetan monastic commentary. Khedrup Denpa Dhargye. Dont forget, I
mean he was born the year after Columbus came to America.
[student: couldnt we just say it was five hundred years ago this year? It makes it
a lot easier.]
Thats great. Yeah. Yeah you have a point.
[student: thats what Im saying]
[Laughter]
[student: we could make T shirts]
Okay, 1493-1568. Nina, definition of the dharma jewel.
[Nina: if you ask me questions, Im not going to answer right]
Ill give you an easy one. Definition of taking refuge.
Short definition. Two things necessary. I mean minimum, minimum. If you get
this right I dont care. Two things have to happen for you to go to mommy.
Come, you can guess. Why do you run to mommy? Why does anybody run to
their mother?
[student: for help. Any thought of its own accord that consists of hoping that an
object outside of oneself will render assistance.]
So basically, in fact I prefer if you put the two causes for that. One is fear and the
second one is belief that this can help you. Why do you run when something
bad happens? You run to mommy because you think she can help you.
[student: wait a minute, you didnt use that in the original definition of refuge
because it wouldnt necessarily be fear, ordinary refuge.]
Yeah, its not mentioned on there.
[student: you might buy a Mercedes to make you happy but that doesnt mean
youre afraid.]
Yeah, but, this is not taking refuge in Mahayana, this is not Buddhists taking
refuge.
Doesnt it mean when you say render one assistance, thats a kind of a problem.
[student: well, not necessarily fear]
Okay. Never mind.
Definition of dharma jewel.
[student: the dharma jewel is the enlightened side of truth, in which either a
cessation or a path that has been realized.]
Yeah and give me one example. Basically, its the enlightened side of existence
consisting either of a path or a cessation or both. I think I would cancel the both
part.
[student: really? Oh no we had it that way]
A cessation is permanent..[unclear] Although in the next course, I might come
up with something thats both. Something thats close to both.

[student: you cant say what?]

Dont worry about it. Let me ask you a question. Give me an example of a
path.
[student: the three principle paths.]
Yeah, good, good, good. Name those three.
[student: renunciation, bodhicitta, and, correct view.]
Yeah. Okay, thats an example of a path. Lee, example of cessation.
[Lee: anger]
Anger?
[lee: ah]
Maybe youre talking about the end of anger. Yes, were talking about a
cessation.
[Student: thats the example I gave on my homework.]
Then you have to say the end of anger. The permanent ending of anger in the
persons mind stream. Theres other cessations. Ill give you a few.
Ill give you a few that dont depend on individual analysis. They dont depend
on
[student: should we write these down or not?]
You also reach a cessation before you see emptiness directly where you can
never again destroy the basic virtues. Youll never again destroy your basic
virtues through wrong view or anger.
[All talking]
[student: excuse me, you said several, you never destroy your basic virtue
through]
Through anger or through wrong views.
[student: is that cessation the cause of a bigger cessation that you mentioned?]
Probably had something to do with that. It probably is related, but I wouldnt
want to say. [unclear]
[student: you certainly couldnt have it after the other one.]
Yeah, right.
Ariel, describe the refuge that we have in common with
practitioners of a lesser scope.
[Ariel: the fear of the suffering of the three lower realms and belief in the power
of the three jewels, that you can take refuge in one or more of the three jewels.]
Right, right, ooh. You must have been studying. You know the irony is you
guys know this better than I do. Okay. [Laughs] Riana, describe result refuge. A
lot of people got this wrong on the homework. I always used to get them
confused.
[Riana: I dont know.]

Kiley, you know?

[student: any movement of the mind.]
[Laughter]
[student: when you take refuge in your future Buddhahood?]
Yes.
[student: isnt there a sutra that says eventually everybody will be.]
Absolutely. Thats the idea of Buddha nature. Because your own mind has
emptiness you will become a Buddha. What Im saying is I dont know .
[student: thats what they always say]
[student: Buddhas always say that]
[Laughter]
[student: who are you]
Barry, show me the definition of the greater ways wish to be enlightened.
[Barry: show me the definition of the greater ways wish to be enlightened, I
think its bodhicitta is the wish to fulfill, perfectly fulfill the needs of others and of
yourself.]
No. Two wishes. What are the two wishes?
[student: the wish to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings.]
And the wish to help all sentient beings. Those are the two wishes.
[student: well, thats not fulfilling their needs..]
It is but
[student: but you dont include yourself in that, right?]
[All talking]
[student: the wish to help yourself..]
Well, it is. This is for Kiley.
Describe the two types of the wish for
enlightenment. By the way it says here, if you know the two different ways of
splitting the wish into two, you may write either one. Theres two ways to split
them into two. I think you only learned one which is fine. Write down the one
you learned.
[student: whats the other one?]
Youre going to get confused.
[student: dont tell us]
Split bodhicitta into two and tell me what you get.
[student: unclear]
Engaging and try to describe it a little more. I dont mind if you say its directly
involved with the act of a bodhisattva and one is not involved. Obviously
theyre both involved but not directly involved. One is directly involved with
taking the vows and one is not directly involved with taking the vows, but I
dont think the second one is for the person who hasnt taken vows. Its just not
directly involved with his vows.

[student: may I ask, is this the wish for enlightenment as a prayer does not
depend on..]
Its directly dependent on it. I think I may have put it on your homework.
[student: it depends on one having taken the vow]
Yeah thats incorrect.
[student: what distinction does that make, directly]
I can tell you what it means in the case of acting out as a bodhicitta and I think I
told you that as a bodhisattva. They have been defined in the text.
Directly involved in the activity of a bodhisattva means you know actually
giving somebody something with the conscious intention that by this act may I
become a Buddha and may he become my [unclear]
[student: and may he become my student in my future Buddhahood]
Directly involved with that or with the activities of a Buddha, the bodhisattva,
what it means to be directly dependent on the vows, I dont know.
[student; but you emphasized with the wish of engagement that all activities,
body speech or mind are assessed in terms of how conducive ]
Well there is this thing in Shantideva where even when the bodhisattvas pissing,
hes doing it for sentient beings so I dont know. Anyway, Ill have to study
that one, frankly.
Number ten. Give the definition of nirvana.
[student: nirvana is the cessation of which comes from individual analysis]
What is it a cessation of?
[student: cessation of mental afflictions]
Yeah and the obstacles. By the way, if youve been a dharma student for a while,
please dont write down these things that you learned ten years ago in
somebodys class okay. It irritates me. Sometimes the more advance students,
they dont bother to study precisely and they come in and they write down
something they heard in some class and I know what it is, I heard it too, you
know its imprecise and its incorrect. So go study exactly what the book says
okay, thats the reason youre here.
[student: are you distinguishing the knowledge and the semantics or ]
No Im saying the way that Khedrup Denpa Dhargye expressed it because
theres always a reason why he did that . Hes not just, youre probably getting
a feeling now for why he doesnt use a word unless he has something has
meaning to it. He doesnt add another adjective unless its important. Especially
in a definition.
[student: except that oftentimes words arent qualified]
In what extent.
[student: like enlightenment]
Oh you mean he doesnt say Mahayana enlightenment. You still get in trouble.

[student; you use the word and how do you know you know what the word
means]
Theres a study of that. Well get
[student: I know you did it on my homework]
[student: you gotta have something to debate in the monasteries]
Yeah, you gotta have something to debate. Okay. What does individual analysis
mean here meaning in the definition of [unclear]. Oh, we didnt have that did
we?
[student: yeah, she said that]
Okay.
[Laughter]
You guys are getting real debaters now.
[student: it means the seeing the four noble truths one by one as a result of
having perceived emptiness]
Yeah, please add that second part. As a result of having perceived emptiness
directly.
Because otherwise the individual analysis of the four noble truths, you could do
that right now.
[student: dont you also mean immediately after perceiving emptiness]
Yes, immediately after.
[student: its not something that happens ten years later you said, gee, ya know
I perceived it.]
Nina, what is nirvana with something left over and nirvana with nothing left
over?
In this school. Whats left over?
[Nina: the seed?]
No, you gotta study. T his is Monday were talking. The five suffering heaps.
Somebody in another class asked me does it only refer to your body, and I asked
Rinpoche and he said, No, its all five heaps are suffering heaps. They all get
transformed. And I said, Well how could his mental heap be as lousy as his
physical heap because hes now gotten rid of all his mental afflictions? Hasnt his
mind in a sense already transformed and thats not leftover? And he said, Well
in the sense that it was produced by his former karma and kleshas that mental
afflictions, is still dirty even though hes having nice thoughts right now. Okay
so from the viewpoint of having been produce by something impure, its
impure. Is it impure by its essence now. No, its pure. So we still say its in the
category of suffering heaps although hes also not capable of suffering anymore.
Its suffering in the sense that it was produced by his former bad deeds.
[student: well that sort of implies along with the physical heaps and the other
ones that no matter what you do once you get to that point, theres nothing else

you can do until you die at that point.]

According to Hinayana thats true. Once you got rid of your mental affliction
obstacles on December 14, 1993, you dont have anything dirty in your mind.
Its clean.
[student: no, no, but Im saying in this case whats left over, you said even the
mental is still left over because its produced by these other, its sort of a fatalistic
thing, even your mind , theres nothing else you can do except wait until you die
and then they all going to be manifest purely.]
Yeah thats true.
[student: what was that thing about a painful death, but thats just]
No the physical body is still gonna be painful. How he will perceive it..
[student: is different]
Right. Or how hell react to it is different. And Im curious personally when we
get to Prasangika what they say. Im not sure what they say.
[student: didnt you tell us that they say you perceive emptiness directly and
then they come out of it?]
Yeah, right, for them left over means something else. But I dont want to get
into it. Okay, whose turn is it John. Theres a kind of nirvana called nirvana
which doesnt stay. What is the meaning of the phrase doesnt stay?
[student: [unclear] no matter where you are]
[Laughter]
[student: it means that you dont abide in samsara or nirvana..]
In a lower realm. You better write that down. You dont stay in samsara and
you dont stay in a lower nirvana.
[student: I thought any nirvana you dont call total nirvana is lower.] Dont
assume anything. Youre in a nice monastic class here, you gotta be precise.
[student: I thought it was called the extreme of peace.]
Yeah theyre called the extreme of peace and the extreme of the world. By the
way, those are not the extremes the Middle path threads its way through. Some
people got that right on the homework. When you talk about Madyamika,
when you talk about the middle path, the middle path is also going through two
extremes but it aint those two extremes. Theres two sets of two extremes.
When you talk about Madyamika, the two extremes are what? Thinking things
are self existent and thinking that if they werent self existent they couldnt exist.
Nihilism, I dont know, Neitche, Kuerkegaard, whatever they are, forget it.
Okay. Thinking things are self existent and thinking things arent self existent
couldnt exist. And Madyamika goes through the middle, thats why its called
Madyamika. That aint the two extremes were talking about here. Were not
talking about why Madyamikas called Madyamika. Were talking about why
not staying called not staying. Somebody forgot that line. I brought it up as an

example of extreme and then some people took it to mean

[student: question, for the purposes of the test, is it alright to paraphrase and say
what staying and not staying in samsara or nirvana or do you want ..]
Thats alright. You wont get anything wrong. You wont lose any points. Its
just good for you to say the nirvana which doesnt stay doesnt stay in the
extreme of peace which means lower nirvana, and doesnt stay in the extreme of
the world which means samsara. That would be precise. Okay. Vilma, describe
the three main parts of the method for achieving nirvana.
[student: the three main parts are the training in wisdom]
Is number one, [student: is number one] which perceives selflessness okay.
[student: right andm and that ] It would be very nice if you said that. The
training in wisdom which perceives selflessness.
[student: and that wisdom is from is under the, is under concentration and
morality..]
Is under the influence of, or how about immersed in. I like that . Thats nice.
Immersed in. Its immersed in what?
[student: concentration and morality]
The training in concentration and morality. Okay. A lot of people thought those
were the three steps. Theyre not. They thought that the three trainings were
the three steps, thats not. Youre doing it correctly. Shes saying training
number one relates to step one, trainings number two and three relate to step
number two. And then whats step number three?
[student: its when you have lost the habit of seeing things as self existent and ..]
No, it was the opposite. It was getting the habit of what?
[student: of seeing things as empty.]
Yeah. Of realizing emptiness. Practicing realizing emptiness,{ toksing gonpa}
Practicing what you saw on the path of seeing. Going over and over what you
saw on the path of seeing. Habituating yourself to what you saw on the path of
seeing. And I really prefer it if you say it that way. Getting used to what you
saw on the path of seeing. You saw emptiness. Getting used to the emptiness
which you understood directly for the first time, saw directly for the first time.
Thats the third step. So step two has two parts. Step two has two trainings.
Whose turn? Regina.
[unclear] Respectful for a lady in Thailand. My dear sister. What is important to
iden why is it important to identify the object we deny? Why is it important
to identify self existency?
Remember?
[student: I do. Because we want to know what emptiness is but before we know
that we have to know what it is we deny. That is the self.]
Good. Its what emptiness is empty of. If thats all you put, Ill be happy. Okay.

Its what emptiness is empty of. f you dont know what emptiness is empty of,
how do you know that emptiness exists? Its a self existent thing. You have to be
able to imagine a self existent thing. Can you have an imagination of a self
existent thing? Yes. Is there a self existent thing? No. Are you alright?
[student: no, cos I cant find my homework from class eight.]
[student: you werent supposed to read it off the homework anyway.]
Okay. Three different people in the magic show. Whats going on?
[Laughter]
[student: um, the spectator is like ]
By the way, I prefer you say this, the original spectator, or something like that
cause the last guys a spectator too.
[student: okay, Ive got it backward in a sense. So the spectator is like somebody
who has not perceived emptiness directly and both sees things as self existent
and believes theyre self existent. And the magician is like somebody who has
perceived emptiness directly and sees things as self existent but knows perfectly
well theyre not ]
After he comes out of that meditation. Someone who has in the past seen
emptiness directly. Hes now out of that perception. Hes walking around with
his ]
[student: how can you see things if youre in the perception of emptiness?]
Please make it clear that .
[All talking]
hes post meditation. Its important because number threes what?
[student: so then the late comer is like someone who is a sentient being, a non
Buddhist sentient being who is at that very moment seeing emptiness directly.]
Right. And .
[student: he doesnt see it as a horse and doesnt believe its a horse.]
Okay, good. Does he believe in anything else by the way?
[student: not at that moment.]
Yeah. He cant think this is this, this is that, what we call [tape ends]

ACI Course II: Buddhist Refuge-November 1993

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