OMAR KHAN

University at Buffalo (SUNY)

Performance/Architecture
DORITA HANNAH An Interview with Bernard Tschumi
Massey University

The notable parade of built, paper, and written This interview revisits Tschumi’s teaching and not only in architecture of course but also in other
projects by New York- and Paris-based Swiss praxis as it relates to performance. It took place at art forms. As a young architect at the time, I was
architect, Bernard Tschumi (Figure 1), has been his New York office on November 29, 2007. It very suspicious of the message conveyed by the
aligned with performance (in the fullest sense of began by reading him the call for submissions for schools and by the profession that architecture, as
the word) since the 1970s through his oft-repeated this special issue on Performance/Architecture. a dictionary of received ideas, is about coherence
mantra: ‘‘there is no space without event.’’1 Over JAE: You have often used the terms ‘‘experi- and continuity. The discourse on autonomy was
the subsequent four decades, this attitude toward ence’’ and ‘‘event’’ in your writings, but you have nothing but another discourse on continuity.
architecture, as a spatial discourse associated with not referred so directly to ‘‘performance.’’ It would Maybe because of all the changes in society at that
time, action, and movement, has continued to be good to get your take on how you see perfor- time, it became interesting to look at what was
inform his projects, which broadened from purely mance in relationship to your work. happening not at the established center of archi-
theoretical propositions to constructed works. His BT: In many ways, the history of architecture is tecture was but rather at its margin. Now, the
praxis has contributed significantly to an eventual a very static history, one that is almost exactly as problem that I will have in this interview is trying to
(and ‘‘evental’’) sea change in which architecture is you describe when you said that architecture is avoid intermixing it too much with my own history,
now perceived more as a dynamic space-in-flux about structure, solidity, stillness, etc. But it was but I was of a generation that, post-1968, tried to
than as fixed and enduring object. In the 1970s, his not always like that. And at one moment—probably question all those received ideas of what architec-
interests lay in aesthetic performances, influenced triggered by all the changes that happened in ture was. And if I did not want to fall back on the
by the historical avant-garde, constructivist cinema, society and in criticism at the end of the sixties—a clichés, then it was necessary to look to these
situationist practices, as well as conceptual and radical questioning took place in a number of fields: margins. I was quite fascinated by certain issues
performance art. Tschumi’s work with architecture
1. Bernard Tschumi. (All photos and drawings courtesy Bernard Tschumi.)
students at the Architectural Association in London,
and subsequently at Princeton University’s School
of Architecture, combined with his speculative
projects to explore spatial scripting and movement
notation. By the time the paper architect decided to
apply his theories to built work in the influential
project, Parc de la Villette (1982–1998), Jacques
Derrida linked his architecture to the performative
as a spatial ‘‘acting out.’’2 This ‘‘event of spacing’’
was dubbed ‘‘event-space’’ and developed into
‘‘event-cities,’’ a medium for investigating and
presenting new forms of urban organization.3 The
spatial performativity of Tschumi’s architecture
continues to intersect with performance practices,
including the design of the inaugural fireworks
display for Parc de la Villette and the more recent
creation of specific spaces for the performing and
mediatized arts in Europe.4 As his architecture
persists in performing, so does the architect him-
self, evidenced in his many public lectures, texts,
competitions, and provocations, as well as his sig-
nature red scarf—a sartorial detail that reflects the
thin scarlet line threading through much of his
graphics, texts, and Web site.

Journal of Architectural Education, Performance/Architecture: An Interview with Bernard Tschumi 52

pp. 52–58 ª 2008 ACSA
that did not have to do with architecture per thought at the time, there was a crossover between preconceived ideas of what a building should look
se—because the word is culturally loaded—but art, architecture, and other disciplines. I think the like. In the course of this, the students were
simply with the idea of space. We start by defining discourse was really about architecture, but archi- encouraged not to use the traditional tools of
space. We start by activating space. That is what tecture in an expanded sense whereby the move- plan, section, elevations but the tools of docu-
architecture does. And hence, with other people at ment of bodies in space was just as important as the mentation, documenting the movement of their
the time, who were devising artworks of the most space itself. Hence the definition of architecture as bodies in space. Another example was to use the tool
abstract nature, I became interested in dealing with space, movement, and what happens in it, that is, of photographs to talk about what is going on in
conceptual art, which was about redefining art the action or what I later called the ‘‘event.’’ In a space. Today, we would use electronic media much
itself. Another dimension, as I mentioned, is that a sense, Space, Event, Movement—SEM—as more. We were simply trying to deal specifically with
architecture is about activating space through the a semantic dimension of what architecture really what architecture is supposed to be—space and use,
movement of bodies. Some artists were also inter- meant, was always based not on a homogeneous space, and its experience. As I would always say,
ested in this question of the movement and pres- definition of form but a heterogeneous definition concept and experience is what makes architecture.
ence of the body. Performance art was another of these three very different things. There was also There is one part of architecture that is highly
interesting area of investigation at the time, a lot of discussion about this in the twenties, when abstract and one part that is highly experiential, and
especially in New York. Another interest of mine the relationship between architecture, the theater, much of the work that I was encouraging the
included film: there is no cinema without the and film was much closer than it is now—now it is students to do was to bring these together in
movement of the camera, the movement of the a forced relation. There is nothing I hate more than whatever form they would discover.
protagonist in a particular space. I found very those ‘‘collaborations.’’ JAE: And to follow up on that, when we look at
quickly that research such as Eisenstein’s was very JAE: To pick up a little on your history, the your architecture advertisements, there is a staging of
close to my own interests. I remember here in New work at the AA when you were engaging in actual the photograph accompanied by a text that implies or
York going to the Strand bookstore and accidentally embodied staging of scripts in existing architec- suggests a certain experience of it. Was there a shift
finding a literal library of about forty books on film ture—sometimes from a literary text—what was there from saying that one cannot continue to work in
theory, within which were the two major books by the pedagogical objective there? the realm of embodiment and experience and that
Eisenstein (Film Sense and Film Form) with modes BT: The one device that I used very con- architecture works in representation, works in com-
of notation that were attempting to reconcile very sciously was that of trying to get out of architec- municating through representations; hence, one
different types of information, not only the image ture, which is always determined by a program. must move experience into representation?
but also the movement, sound track, and so on.This There is no architecture without a program—most BT: Before I answer, you have used a word that
is exactly what I was trying to do with architecture of the time, the program is a clumsy list of square I would like you to define (you have used it several
because my hypothesis was that architecture was meters defining banal activities like the bathroom, times)—the word ‘‘embodiment’’? What do you
both the space and what happens in it. Hence, at no kitchen, living room, dining room, and so on. In understand by ‘‘embodiment’’?
moment could one say that architecture is the reality, much of the spaces with those names have JAE: Embodiment is the perception of space
container; it is as much defined by movement. Work been determined by culture and history. So I asked fundamentally through the actions of the body—its
in the art scene, for example, used the word ‘‘per- why not go directly to things that precede those corporality and materiality within a particular con-
formance’’ outside of sports or industry, which is clumsy lists of square meters? Why not give stu- text. It is less ideational or conceptual and more
why RoseLee Goldberg’s book on performance art dents a short story, which already hints at the about the body’s interaction in the space, funda-
is important early research.5 Artists—whether it making of spaces but without being literal about mentally contributing to its understanding of that
was Robert Wilson or performers like Lucinda it? So I would take a text by Jorge Luis Borges, space. That is how we interpret the distinction you
Childs—were useful examples for a young archi- Edgar Allan Poe, or Herman Hesse, etc. eventually make between concept and experience, where the
tect.6 Not to imitate their work but translate and going to relatively complex texts like James Joyce. concept is projected onto what we want to do in
transport it into architecture. They were more like And whether it was at the AA or Princeton, the space and experience is what negotiates that
allies, people who, through their own investiga- students were to try and invent a building based through our physical presence.
tions, were able to help further a discourse that was on their interpretation of the story. It was inter- BT: Okay, it is interesting because I feel pretty
specifically architectural. Contrary to what people esting because it was allowing us to avoid the comfortable with everything that you are saying but

53 KHAN AND HANNAH

 2. The Manhattan Transcripts.

BT: I do not like the word to start with. I do not

necessarily like the idea of two people coming
together with their autonomous disciplines and
starting to bring them together. I am much more
interested in seeing how with your different sensi-
bilities you might expand your search into an idea,
but I really have a problem with the notion of dis-
ciplinary fields. I know they exist, but collaborations
always implied a static means of bringing together
the word I feel uneasy with. Without looking at the JAE: So you are saying that there is a different the static order of one kind with the static order of
actual etymological definition of the word, means between exploring space through the lived another. And that was exactly what I was against.
‘‘embodiment’’ does not mean the actual making body—that is the body experiencing it—and the Instead, I was very interested in crossovers in mixed
into a body; in other words, if you have an idea and mediatized performance through film, which is also media. Collaboration sounded very much like the
you embody this idea, you materialize the idea. I am really important in your work. way the Museum of Modern Art is organized—you
not interested in taking an idea and materializing it, BT: At the time, I was working one step back have a department of sculpture, department of
maybe to give it a materiality, yes, but that is dif- from that. Film-like architecture brings together painting, department of drawing. I do not believe in
ferent from embodiment. The issue for example with concepts and experiences. I would start earlier that because if the department of architecture
the Advertisements for Architecture is simply devel- saying that there is no architecture without some collaborates with the department of prints, it is not
oping a body of ideas, which you are trying to level of abstraction. It is not exactly the same as that they are going to generate a new concept of
communicate not only to others but also to yourself. going through the forest running and jumping; say . . . archiprint.
It is really important that by stating these ideas, you there are a lot of other dimensions to it. Architec- JAE: One thing that interests us in terms of
can take them to the next step. Depending on how ture is very abstract; it belongs to the realm of the performance/architecture is that architecture can
you state them, they have a slightly different life. If I most sophisticated intelligence of mankind, which be an active force. You have also spoken about
draw something, I do not quite say it in the same way is not quite the same as an immediate experience of activism, spatial activism from the sixties. We noted
as if I write about it. It might be the same object, but the five senses. So by bringing together the that your recent work—the Beijing project (Figures
the logic of drawing is quite different from the logic opposing forms of intellectualized thought in its 3 and 4) and Athens (Figures 5 and 6) projects—
of writing. I may write an article, I may write the same abstract dimensions, and the most pleasurable form are indeed activist projects in relation to how they
thing as a manifesto, I may use contemporary means of experiential perception, something interesting deal discursively with the problematics of site and
of information using the rhetoric of advertising. This seems to be happening. The discourse of architec- history. Can you talk a bit more about your work’s
introduces another dimension of the words juxta- ture has always touched upon these things. We all relationship to activism?
posed with the image, which mean totally different know that Gothic cathedrals are extraordinarily BT: Again, I would not use the word ‘‘activ-
things without this juxtaposition. We are exploring sophisticated in a mathematical sense and at the ism.’’ It is the same as with the word ‘‘embodi-
the idea that architecture is about space, movement, same time very powerful in an experiential sense, ment.’’ I understand the word ‘‘activism’’ as
and the event through different means. Every one of hence providing an inherent definition of architec- a militant expression. Let us put it this way . . . if I
the Advertisements for Architecture is a way to con- ture. Then, you look at other disciplines like film or belong to a political party, I can either register
tinue this investigation through a variety of means. art that have similar problems and you learn from myself as a Democrat or I can be an activist, in
Eventually, there is a moment when—after finishing them. It allows you to take yourself to the next step. other words, a militant. It is slightly different in the
the Manhattan Transcripts (Figure 2)—I have to try it This notion of import and export between disci- case of architecture, which I utilize to reveal cer-
in real life. I enter a competition and, instead of plines is always very interesting. I have never been tain hidden conditions and, taking advantage of
inventing the script, I have the script from somewhere one for autonomy. these conditions, turn them to the advantage of
else. And by chance, I win that competition, which is JAE: But you are not one for collaboration? either architecture—the end purpose is to have
another story all together. The point, in terms of this BT: No. a great building—or potentially to effect the
investigation, is working with different means. JAE: And why is that? society in which the building is located. If I can do

Performance/Architecture: An Interview with Bernard Tschumi 54

 3. Factory 798, Beijing, axonometric.

both, then I am very excited, and it happens more

often than we think. The two examples that you
give are exactly that. In both cases (Beijing and
Athens), you have a site that is simply impossible
in terms of what people want to put on it, in this
particular case for very similar reasons physically
and very different reasons socially and politically.
Physically the ground is already very busy; in one
case, there are already existing buildings; in the
other case, there exist archaeological ruins. They
are totally different socially and politically
because in the first case, in Beijing, the state
wants to demolish those buildings and replace
them with something entirely different and, of
course, in Athens, they want to keep the ruins.
Physically both projects challenge how I can put JAE: So in relation to this notion of activism, is BT: Yes, maybe I prefer the term active force as
a building in the interstices of what is forbidden. it more architecture and its practice as an active opposed to activist force. All the ‘‘ists’’ worry me. Just
In the case of Beijing, it is in order to keep a public force rather than an activist force? as I am for reform I worry about reformists, I am for
space and combine it with another economic
model that is required, that is, ten million square 4. Factory 798, Beijing, perspective.
feet of housing. In Athens, it is about preserving
an important piece of archaeological history and
combining it with a museum, which celebrates
other moments in history. So this means that the
starting points are accepting certain difficulties,
seeing them not as negative but as positive. Then
saying ‘‘how am I going to do it?’’ leads to a cer-
tain architecture . . . to a very good building . . .
after all I do love architecture and I do like to
build. But when you combine it with a further
agenda—which in the case of Beijing is to provide
a new form of public space in relation to a large
community where people live and to do some-
thing the Chinese had never thought possible,
which was to combine the new with the old rather
than destroy and start again—then architecture is
beyond simply a building. In the case of Athens, I
know that if the building is good enough, it may
succeed in doing what thirty years of diplomatic
negotiations did not succeed in doing—making it
inevitable that the (Elgin) Marbles are brought
back. This double thing happens more often than
we think.

55 KHAN AND HANNAH

 5. New Acropolis Museum, Athens.

BT: Oh absolutely . . . the space of the hall

itself, yes.They have very specific requirements, like
a certain sound quality, a certain absorption, certain
reflections, you have to empty the room in ninety
seconds, etc. etc. The chairs have to be strong
enough for a rock festival yet comfortable enough
when you have a classical concert. These objective
requirements are very strict but not too difficult to
handle. I still feel I have complete freedom to do
context but I hate contextualists, I have always been has taken place through information conveyed by anything I want while respecting every one of the
interested in certain dimensions of deconstruction the media, the Internet, and so on. Hence, there is constraints. When it gets harder is when you know
but I hate the term desconstructivist. Modern, mod- another virtual space that is part of the reading of you can do something quite intelligent by using
ernist goes along the same way. Architecture is not the work, which is quite different. But I have dis- asymmetry in the hall and then somebody says that
about form or the knowledge of form but is a form of covered, having built two very large concert halls in the contract of certain artists, they refuse to sing
knowledge. Hence, it can have an effect on society. I (for political gatherings and sports events as well as in an asymmetrical room. So we have to redesign it,
am learning about the world we are in through music), that certain concepts can be developed, otherwise the city would not get its multimillion
architecture. I have that specific knowledge, just like which would not have been developed a hundred dollars in euro grant, etc. Hence, this type of thing
mathematicians and physicists who tell us about the years ago (Figures 7 and 8). The notion of the restricts some of the freedom you want to have in
world we live in through that particular corner of their double envelope is one that comes simultaneously those halls. However, there are some places where
brain. I believe I can do the same thing with that from an architectural and from an ecological sen- you have complete freedom in all access and cir-
knowledge in architecture. So inevitably at one sibility, which I was exploring again with that notion culation areas, although problems arise such as
moment, you may have influence, even power. of juxtaposition. The in-between and residual when I cannot have a curved space because
Architects have far more power than they think they spaces are the ones that interest me the most a security guy requires six cameras with straight
have, for the simple reason that they have a mode of because, as an architect, they are always the ones laser beams watching the whole building. But
thinking that allows them to bring things together that you have complete freedom to do what you architecture is the art of managing constraints and
that others cannot. In other words, to get back to the want with. But you want to make them a space of subverting them, which is what we do all the time.
beginning of the discussion, they work from the most encounters—maybe unexpected encounters— JAE: Another interest in your recent work is
abstract and conceptual to the most physical and thereby dealing with my interest in the architect’s with the architectural surface. Currently, there is
experiential. In this respect, there are plenty of proj- responsibility to a certain notion of public space at a lot of discussion about the surface of architecture
ects—sometimes they fail miserably, as in Ground a time of increased privatization. Through in- and its performative role in space making. What is
Zero, and sometimes they do change things. between space where interaction takes place, I your take on the ‘‘architectural surface’’?
JAE: Much of your discourse is centered on could embody that notion of public space. BT: For many of my colleagues, who often do
the event, also the multiplicity of the event, and the JAE: Do you think it is possible to think of very good work and make great discoveries, the
idea of in-between spaces that generate productive those in-between spaces and these moments of surface is a decorative surface. They are fascinated
encounters in ways that centralized space cannot. encounter as a form of research that can then be by a certain way that Muslim architecture dealt
In bringing performance and architecture together, applied to the more proper spaces? with the articulation of the surface at a microscale.
the most overt space of the event is the auditorium BT: Yes, I think so. Whether you can formalize In my particular case, it is back to the definition of
(concert hall, etc.). How do you apply your ideas to the research, to say that there is a cause and effect architecture as vectors and envelopes. If I want to
such event-spaces? relationship between the research and the way say that architecture is about space and movement
BT: Regarding the space of performance you want to apply it, is more difficult. It is not (i.e., activity in that space), which is defined by an
(theaters, etc.), you can easily go back to the his- impossible. envelope, then invariably I have to talk about the
tory of the last four hundred years where almost JAE: Because spaces like concert halls, theaters, surface of that envelope. I much prefer dealing
everything has been said. Today, another dimension and opera houses are very resistant to change. with words like surface and envelope rather than

Performance/Architecture: An Interview with Bernard Tschumi 56

6. New Acropolis Museum, Athens, under construction.
7. Rouen Concert Hall, Rouen, France (1998–2001).

facxade because I do not want to fall into the

expected. So you start to look at the surface of
that envelope as a deep surface. It is not a visual
surface, it is a surface that has a materiality, and to
me, one of the characterizations of architecture is
that its materialization has an effect on the con-
cept. Regarding the two concert halls, we finished
a concert hall in Rouen about five to seven years
ago that has a steel outer envelope and a concrete
inner envelope with, of course, the movement
vectors in between. I then won a competition to do
another hall with exactly the same program, and it
made a lot of sense to use the same concept. But
then I said, hey I am not going to do the same
building twice . . . let us take one variable and
completely change it, which is the materials of the
building. So this becomes a discussion on context,
with a fascination to see what happens when you
have exactly the same program, exactly the same
concept, but you simply change the materials. You
have a building that, instead of being steel and
concrete, is translucent polycarbonate and wood
but is the same building.
JAE: Formally as well?
BT: Up to a point, because the respective
topography of both sites made us run the ramps
and stairs slightly differently in the two projects, yet
the organization of the building—the concept
again (I rarely talk about form) is the same—as a
theater, an amphitheater, a semicircle, a sort of
torus with curved walls and with a double enve-
lope—and structurally similar with large spans, etc.
in both projects. The issue then becomes changing
entirely the nature of the surface, which, for me,
has a certain depth. If I change from solid steel
envelope to a polycarbonate one, through which
the light shines inside, then it becomes something
else. This shows that words are important because
you have to be careful that they do not block you.
That is why I rarely use the word ‘‘surface.’’
JAE: Comparing that to your ZKM project,
which was an LED screen, now it is possible to do
such large screen surfaces.

57 KHAN AND HANNAH

 8. Limoges Concert Hall, Limoges, France (2003–2006).

Questions of Space (London: Architectural Association, 1990), pp. 87–95.

On the mandate of his architectural circle in the 1970s, Tschumi writes,
‘‘Our work argued that architecture—its social relevance and formal
invention—could not be dissociated from the events that ‘happened’
in it.’’ Ibid, p. 88.
2. Jacques Derrida, ‘‘Point de Folie—Maintenant L’Architecture,’’ in
Neil Leach, ed., Re-Thinking Architecture: A Reader in Cultural Theory
(London: Routledge, 1997), p. 333. In his analysis of Parc de la Villette,
Derrida links Tschumi’s ‘‘architecture of the event’’ to J.L. Austin’s
performative speech acts as something that performs rather than
describes. Ibid, p. 335.
3. Bernard Tschumi, Event-Cities: Praxis (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press,
1994), Bernard Tschumi, Event-Cities 2 (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press,
2001), and Bernard Tschumi, Event-Cities 3: Concept vs. Context vs.
Content (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 2005).
4. Rouen Concert Hall, Rouen, France (1998–2001) and Limoges Concert
Hall, Limoges, France (2003–2006).
BT: Yes, it is possible now but then it would BT: Performativity is something else. The 5. RoseLee Goldberg is author, critic, curator, and current director of
have been outrageously expensive. About ten years performance of buildings is again another discus- PERFORMA, a multidisciplinary arts organization and New York–based
performance biennale. Her seminal book on Performance Art (first pub-
after ZKM, Toyo Ito was doing something like that sion that would have taken us somewhere else. In lished in 1975) is a key text in the visual and performing arts fields:
and now it is everywhere. You have a building here terms of computer technology, the word has dif- RoseLee Goldberg, Performance Art: From Futurism to the Present (New
in New York whose facxade (other than some strip ferent connotations as well. I have used only the York: Thames & Hudson, 2001).
6. Robert Wilson is an American avant-garde stage director who gradu-
windows) is entirely advertising. Unfortunately, it is one, the relationship of the movement of the body
ated with a BFA in architecture (Pratt Institute, 1965) and went on to
not very interesting, but it could have been. So we and space in an art practice. But you will have practice as an internationally acclaimed ‘‘theater artist,’’ working as a
return to a discussion about the nature of the somebody else talk about that. choreographer, sculptor, performer, painter, and scenographer, as well as
envelope as static or otherwise, and we get back to a sound, video, and lighting designer. Lucinda Childs, who has collabo-
rated with Wilson, began her career as a choreographer and performer
the event.
Notes with the Judson Dance Theater in New York before forming her own dance
JAE: We note you did not in our conversation 1. Bernard Tschumi, ‘‘Spaces and Events,’’ The Discourse of Events company in 1973. She is a leading choreographer in modern dance and
use the terms ‘‘performativity’’? (London: Architectural Association, 1983) reproduced in Bernard Tschumi, opera.

Performance/Architecture: An Interview with Bernard Tschumi 58