Volodymyr Zelensky in his own words | The Economist https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/03/27/volodymyr-zelensky-in-h...

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Interview

Volodymyr Zelensky in his own words

The transcript from his meeting with our journalists

Mar 27th 2022

ON MARCH 25TH 2022 Ukraine’s president spoke in person to The Economist in

what he and his staff have taken to calling “the fortress”. Here are highlights of what
he told us—switching freely between English, Ukrainian and Russian. We have
edited them for clarity.

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The Economist: You are an actor and president. Now you are being called a 21st-
century Churchill. It's an extraordinary change. How did it happen?

Volodymyr Zelensky: I think that these changes happened already in Ukraine

when they elected me. It's what [the people] wanted. They saw my honest position
on everything. Like your father says, if you don't know how to do something this
way or that way, be honest and that's it. You have to be honest, so that people believe
you. You don't need to try. You need to be yourself. And maybe, after you show who
you are, maybe people will love you more than before, because they see that you are
not so strong or are lazy at times. No, each time don't lie and show people who you
are exactly. And it's important not to show that you are better than who you are.

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Replay

TE: Did you always have it in you to be so brave? To be such a strong person?

VZ: It's not about being brave. I have to act the way I do. I have to do it this way.
None of us was ready for the war before it began. You can't say, “If I were the
President of Ukraine, then I would do it this way”, because you can't imagine what it
would mean. And you can't imagine even how you will do it. That's what it was like
in this case with me. And all of the people around me.

TE: But you changed the way you govern?

VZ: Yes, of course. I understood what was going on. I understood many months ago
what was going on. That [this] is a very big story. It's not only about Ukraine. It's
about the world, about the politicians of the world and I think we can speak about it
after we win. Yes, and I hope we win. I'm sure we'll win. That's why I'm saying that I
am not a hero. I understood what was going on. I wanted to change attitudes
towards Ukraine. On one level it's not about who has more weapons or more money
or gas, oil etc. That's why we have to have agency. That's the first thing that I
understood.

TE: Can you remember the moment when you understood what the conflict with
Russia would be about?

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VZ: I think it was when I became president. I could understand why some things
were going on in a certain way and I tried to be honest with many world leaders,
including those in Russia, of course. We had meetings. You remember our first
meeting, our first and last meeting in 2019, with Putin at the Normandy Four talks?

We began to come to [the] decision that we can't be part of somebody. I wanted to

change attitudes towards Ukraine, because, just to be clear, Ukrainians are people
who are the same as people [in] the USA and Europe and Russia. We are the same.
We are on one level. It's not about who has more weapons or more money or gas or
oil, et cetera. And that's why we have to have agency. That's what I understood, the
first thing that I understood, that we the people have [agency]. People are leaders
and political leaders are losers, some of them. We began to do things this way and to
develop this policy.

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Replay

TE: So, now you are speaking to the people of the West, rather than to their
politicians?

VZ: Yes. Yes, of course. I think so. Sometimes I think politicians live in an
information vacuum. What we see is that this is a closed atmosphere with Putin
now. So, he doesn't know. I can't describe everything that is going on with him. I
can't describe it, because I don't know with whom he speaks each day or each week
or each two weeks. That's information we don't have. That means he can't
understand or he couldn't know what's going on outside. Even me, when the war
started, and I am very open to people…Even me, if I were sitting in the office and I
don't go outside for three or four days, I would not have correct information about
what is going on in the world.

TE: When the war started did you suddenly click and think: “This is what the people
want me to do… and I'm doing it.” Or was it your decision, thinking, “This is what
I'm doing and you have to support me”?

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VZ: I think that nobody, nobody, understood what to do when it began. I was in
Kyiv, in the house, at the residence. I was home at that moment. It was 04:50am.
With my wife and kids. They woke me up. They told me there were loud explosions.
After a couple of minutes, I received the signal that a rocket attack was under way.
They didn't know what was going on. We knew that they were preparing [to attack].
We knew it, of course. The first thing we did was call a State of Emergency and, a
couple of days later, at a meeting of the National Security and Defence Council, we
declared Martial Law. We understood that the Russians could attack, but we didn't
understand the magnitude.

TE: Let's talk about now, about where we are in this stage of the war. Do you think
there is any chance you can win?

VZ: We believe in victory. It's impossible to believe in anything else. We will

definitely win because this is our home, our land, our independence. It's just a
question of time.

TE: What does a Ukrainian victory look like?

VZ: Victory is being able to save as many lives as possible. Yes, to save as many lives
as possible, because without this nothing would make sense. Our land is important,
yes, but ultimately it's just territory. I don't know how long the war will last, but we
will fight to the last city we have. From the start, when you choose an option about
what people should do or not do, people don't understand what a full-fledged war
is. My job is to give a signal so that people know how to act.

And when you show how Ukraine is supposed to behave, you also have to behave
accordingly [yourself]. There was a decision whether to stay or leave. We are all
wounded and hurt in the same way. [My decision to stay] was my signal to people
about how we should respond to the attack. It's about how the war started and how
it's going to end. It will end with us still standing here defending.

That's my response to the question about what Ukraine's victory will look like. Our
victory may be temporary, maybe without resolving all issues, but we have chosen
the direction we will move in.

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TE: Do you need more help to win? And if so what kind?

VZ: We have a long list of items we need. The first thing is to put yourselves in our
place and act pre-emptively, not after the situation becomes complicated. This
concerns our partner countries. Here we are talking about sanctions. I am sure that
if tougher sanctions had been levied earlier, a full-scale Russian attack would not
have occurred.

TE: You mean it wouldn't have happened?

VZ: It would have been on a different scale and without the assistance of Belarus,
giving us more time. They would have shown Belarus what could happen if pre-
emptive sanctions involving Russian businesses, oil and gas exports, etc were
taken, and this taking into account that Belarusians do not support [Russia's war
against Ukraine]. Pre-emptive sanctions would have given more time to Ukraine's
military to prepare for Russia's further invasion

I had raised the Nord Stream 2 pipeline with Biden and Merkel, when she was still in
office, and Scholz. I said the first step will be to launch it, then they will block gas
supplies to us, and next they will apply pressure, including on Moldova, and then
Russia will block supplies in order to split countries within the EU. After that, the
next step would be to launch an invasion. Russia was seeking Ukraine’s official
recognition of Russian sovereignty in Crimea and of Russia-occupied areas in
Donetsk and Luhansk regions. They also pushed Europe to pressure us to do so.

What hasn’t been done? [Our Western partners] have not completed the sanctions
on disconnecting the banking system from SWIFT, many more banks have not been
disconnected. They have taken very important steps to support us, but the central
bank of Russia has not been disconnected. Impose an embargo on Russian oil and
gas exports. All these sanctions are incomplete. They have been threatened, but not
yet implemented. Now we are hearing that the decision depends on whether Russia
launches a chemical attack on us. This is not the right approach. We are not guinea
pigs to be experimented on.

[Our partners] view Russia now through a military-strategic lens and are using
Ukraine as a shield. We are the ones who are feeling the pain. It is good that they are
on the side of Ukraine, but they have to stop being defensive in their dialogue with
Russia. We insist they can act offensively. SWIFT is still operating in Russia for the
leaders of Russia. Don't forget that ordinary Russians are now isolated, deprived of
information. They don't know what's going on.

The situation where the Ukrainian people, not the Ukrainian president, [is being
used as a shield is wrong]. Ukrainian people are dying. Russian people don't know
what's going on. They don’t understand. Social media have been shut down and a
lot of people, I think 90-95%, are watching television, a much higher percentage

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than in Ukraine and Europe. It's a big problem because [the Kremlin] controls all
levels of power and all this information. This is why I pushed for sanctions and to
receive weapons.

Meanwhile, the Russians have blocked our supplies to Mariupol, Melitopol,

Berdyansk, Kherson, Kharkiv, but they're not in the cities. What do they do? For
example, in Melitopol and Berdyansk they are switching to roubles. They are
kidnapping the mayors of our cities. They killed some of them. Some of them we
can't find. Some of them we have found already, and they are dead. And some of
them were replaced. They are doing the same thing that they did in Donbas in 2014.
The same people are carrying out these operations. It’s the same methodology.

[The West] can't say, “We'll help you in the weeks [to come].” It doesn't allow us to
unblock Russia-occupied cities, to bring food to residents there, to take the military
initiative into our own hands. People are simply not able to get out. There is no
food, medicine or drinking water there. And this is something we must do. These
are issues which need to be addressed today and tomorrow, not in a couple of
weeks.

Some small cities have been destroyed. There are no people and no houses. All
that's left is the name. Of course, Russia is to blame, but we were late in getting
there, because of difficulties while bombs were flying. This is why we asked for
military aircraft, why we asked for a no-fly zone to be established, because the
Russians dropped bombs on these small cities, which only exist now as dots on a
map.

TE: When you were asking for more arms, President Macron of France said that
offensive weapons like tanks were a red line which Ukraine's partners could not
cross. Why?

VZ: Because they are afraid of Russia. And that's it. And those who say it first are the
first to be afraid.

TE: Boris Johnson has been much keener to send weapons.

VZ: Yes. To be honest, Johnson is a leader who is helping more. The leaders of
countries react according to how their constituents act. In this case, Johnson is an
example.

TE: And what about the Germans? There was a sudden shift after the invasion and
German foreign policy appeared to change very quickly. Are they worried about
doing more?

VZ: They are trying to be balanced. They have a long relationship with Russia and
they are looking at the situation through the prism of the economy. They help out at
times. I think they are trying to adjust to the situation as it develops. They are also
looking at how the situation affects their own country. They can help, if there is
pressure on them domestically to do so, and they can stop when they see what they
have done is sufficient. I think Germany is more pragmatic than anyone else with
regards to the situation among those countries which can really help. It's not always

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regards to the situation among those countries which can really help. It's not always
about us, what we need and what the world needs. I think the Germans are making a
mistake today. I think they make mistakes often. I think the legacy of Germany's
relations with Russia shows this.

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Everyone has varied interests. There are those in the West who don’t mind a long
war because it would mean exhausting Russia, even if this means the demise of
Ukraine and comes at the cost of Ukrainian lives. This is definitely in the interests
of some countries. For other countries, it would be better if the war ended quickly,
because Russia's market is a big one that their economies are suffering as a result of
the war. They would like to see Russia keep certain markets. Other, truly wealthy
countries, recognize Nazism in Russia and definitely want Ukraine to be victorious.
And there are still other countries, smaller countries, which support us completely,
but they are more liberal states and concerned with humanitarian issues. They want
the war to end quickly at any cost, because they think people come first. And then
there is the category of countries wanting the war to end quickly in any way
possible because they can be considered as “the offices of the Russian Federation in
Europe.”

TE: What category would you put Britain in?

VZ: Britain is definitely on our side. It is not performing a balancing act. Britain sees
no alternative for the way out of the situation. Britain wants Ukraine to win and
Russia to lose, but I'm not ready to say whether Britain wants the war to drag on or
not.

TE: As for the United States, are they in the first group?

VZ: We'll see. But they help. A lot of countries in Europe, in NATO, especially, have,
as our soldiers say, many instruments. This is why the USA has pushed a lot of
countries to help us, but a little bit more slowly than we needed.

TE: How has your relationship with America’s President, Joe Biden, changed? Does
he recognise that you are not just a recipient, that you are driving the process?

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VZ: There isn't a straightforward answer to that question, because there are
different centres of power in the United States. You know this better than I. Indeed,
both the Congress and the Senate support Ukraine. This is true. But there have been
times when there were certain battles, including elections, which have influenced
steps they have taken and their resolve. Some processes move quickly, while others
are held up because of domestic issues. Biden views Ukraine more as a subject [of
political activity] than at the start. There have been different moments and different
processes, and I recognise that this stance does not benefit everyone in the United
States.

TE: What do you most want from the West?

VZ: Aeroplanes, tanks and armoured personnel vehicles. We don't have as many as
we need. We have taken a lot from the Russians. They are running. They are afraid of
our soldiers and they are running. I think yesterday we got 12 or 17 tanks.

TE: Are you worried about exhausting the supply of essential military hardware?

VZ: The Russians have thousands of military vehicles, and they are coming and
coming and coming. If we can joke in this situation, I will. There are some cities,
where there are so many tanks, they can't go away. They have tank traffic jams.

TE: Where?

VZ: We have our famous city Chornobaivka (in the Kherson region), where we have
bombarded Russian military units for the tenth time. The Russians don't realise
what is happening, get lost, and keep on returning to the same place. The Russians
have thousands of military vehicles. It’s not that Ukraine is running out of tanks,
but we have fewer and fewer, because no one is selling us tanks and armoured
vehicles. This is a big problem for us. We have not received planes, armoured
vehicles and tanks. We have already given a list of the military hardware we are
looking for. We know what we want, where it is and how many we need. Soviet
hardware is available. That’s fine. It's all the same to us. All the countries which
possess this equipment have received our letters.

TE: Are you making any progress in getting the equipment?

VZ: I don't know. It depends on the will of these countries and on the USA, NATO.
Many of these countries, especially European countries, say they need the
permission of NATO, and they don't have it.

TE: Can there be a lasting peace with Vladimir Putin in the Kremlin?

VZ: I don't know. I don't know if Putin even knows the answer to this question. I
think many factors will weigh on his decision. Stability in regions where Russia is
present will play a role and influence his decisions. The issue of how relations
between Russia and Ukraine will change as a result of what has happened is a big

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between Russia and Ukraine will change as a result of what has happened is a big
one. I don't have an answer to this. This is a big problem, a very big problem.

TE: You have said you want to meet Putin face-to-face. What would you say to him?

VZ: There are a lot of things. We have to speak. It's not about one question, one
answer. It's about decisions. We have to speak about concrete things, about concrete
months, maybe something about years, maybe something to decide now, maybe to
talk if we can't find a decision and agree not to fight about it. That is my philosophy.
Let's do everything step by step. Let's find a decision one step at a time. We can talk
about everything. But we can’t compromise on everything. We have to understand
that Ukraine is our land. He has to understand what is going on and we have to
understand each other, if it's possible. It's not about respect, about love, or
something else. It's not about feelings. It's very concrete. There is a problem and we
have to figure it out in detail and solve it.

TE: Do you think that fundamentally Putin believes Ukraine has no right to exist?

VZ: I don't think he visualises in his own mind the same Ukraine we see. He sees
Ukraine as a part of his world, his worldview, but that doesn't correspond with
what's happened over the last 30 years. I don't think Putin has been [in] a bunker for
two weeks or six months, but for more like two decades. I don't mean this literally,
but in the sense that he has been in information isolation getting fed information
by his coterie. And Ukraine, while he's been in this bunker, has changed
significantly. So the way he sees Ukraine is very different from the Ukraine that
actually exists in real life.

TE: Putin has a 20th-century view of a 21st-century country.

VZ: Yes. That is his problem.

TE: For you 'victory' means saving as many lives as possible, but politically that
might be untenable. How can you win, save lives and at the same time save the
country? Is this even possible?

VZ: To save everyone, defend all interests while protecting people and not giving up
territory is probably an impossible task. You're right. This presents a difficult
choice, but sometimes there exist so-called “principled” decisions. Take, for
example, cities, which, if we decided to abandon them voluntarily, would be taken
by Putin, who would continue advancing, farther and farther, because he has the
appetite of a hungry person. What’s important here is not that this choice is a
“good” one or “bad” one, per se. What's important is that the decision is made
together with the people.

Just take a look at the people in Kherson who waved their hands in the middle of the
streets in order to stop tanks. They decided to stand up and do this of their own
volition. I could not have ordered them not to do it or to throw themselves under
the tank treads. I will stay with these people until the end.

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Everyone faces the choice of whether to risk becoming a casualty. It's the most
difficult one to make. It's possible that some compromises, ones which don't risk
our physical survival, will be made to save the lives of thousands of people. As for
compromises that may risk the disintegration of the country, the ones which Putin
proposes, or rather demands in the form of an ultimatum, we will never make
them. Never.

We win as long as we remain resolute about not giving into these demands. I think
that we are winning. The military situation is difficult, but we are repulsing attacks.

The invaders do not even mourn their own casualties. This is something I do not
understand. Some 15,000 [Russian soldiers] have been killed in one month. We in
Ukraine talk about our war that has lasted for eight years. Eight years! In eight years,
we have also lost 15,000 lives. And Russia loses 15,000 of its soldiers in a month! He
is throwing Russian soldiers like logs into a train’s furnace. And, they are not even
burying them. They are not burying them at all. Their corpses are left in the streets.
In several cities, small cities, our soldiers say it's impossible to breathe because of
the smell. It is the stench of rotting flesh. It's a complete nightmare.

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Our fearless soldiers are defending Mariupol now. They could have left now, if they
wanted. They could have left a long time ago, but they are not leaving the city. Do
you know why? Because there are still others alive in the city along with their
wounded. And then there are the dead, the fallen comrades. Ukraine's defenders say
they must stay and bury those killed in action and save the lives of those wounded
in action. As long as people are still alive, we must continue to protect them. And
this is the fundamental difference between the way the opposing sides in this war
see the world.

Read more of our recent coverage of the Ukraine crisis

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