Oct 23

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Thursday, 23 October 2008
(In the presence of the jury) CODENAME "IVOR" (continued) SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Good morning. Yes, Mr Mansfield. Oh,
before you start, a couple of questions I have in mind. I don't think you were actually asked this, Ivor. When you wrapped your arms round Mr de Menezes, you told us what you were worried about: that he might be carrying either weapons or a device. Yes, sir. What did you hope to achieve, if he had
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
been carrying a device, by wrapping your arms around him in that way? Firstly with regard to any weaponry that he had on him, that was to prevent him access to those weapons, either a firearm or a knife. With regard to a device, I was
attempting to prevent him -- any sort of detonation, sir. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: moving his hands? Yes, indeed. So far as you could? You mean effectively stopping him
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Yes, sir.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
I see.
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The second question is this: you described how, when you heard the noise of the CO19 firearms officers coming down the platform and there was shouting, you said Mr de Menezes stood up and moved forward towards you and the firearms officers. Yes, sir. How would you describe his method of Describe it.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: movement?
Did he move slowly, quickly?
In my statement I wrote that he advanced towards us. That's right.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A.
And I would say that that would be -- bearing in mind it was only a few feet, a fast walk would probably be the best description.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Thank you.
But then of course he came
up against you because you grabbed him. Sir, I was at that stage literally three to four feet from him. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: three steps? Yes, sir. I see, thank you. You have not got So he could only have taken two or
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: there yet. MR MANSFIELD:
No, I am most grateful.
In fact those are
questions that I had in mind. Questions from MR MANSFIELD (continued)
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MR MANSFIELD: A. Q.
Good morning, Ivor.
Thank you, sir. I'm only going to actually now deal with the next stage. Last night we dealt with the stage at the top of escalator before he went down. Now I want to deal with Nothing else.
the going down and just that, all right? So you know the area I want to deal with. A. Q. Yes.
The context is, as you said yesterday, that you follow down on the basis that your mindset at that point is continued surveillance; correct?
A. Q.
That's correct, sir, yes. Then you leave the escalator, turn left, through the entrance -- I am just summarising it to speed it up -and then you are on to the tube train through that end, single door, he has got on a bit earlier, and you sit down a couple of seats away?
A. Q.
To his left, sir, yes. I'm not going to go through any of the detail of that. I just want to put you back in that seat, if you wouldn't mind.
A. Q.
Understood. So you are back in that seat. Up to that point, so now
it's sort of retrospectively, during the whole of the time that you have seen him -- and you have certainly
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seen him, it appears, for longer periods than anyone else -- I just want to ask you this: from what you saw there was nothing, up to that point, to suggest that he was a suicide bomber about to detonate a bomb, was there? Sir, this is the problem of dealing with this sort of terrorist. Obviously I had him under very close
observation, and I was looking for any detail that may give me any indication that he may be carrying a device or indeed a weapon, if that be a firearm or a knife. I couldn't rule that out, sir, given what I saw, but effectively all I saw him carrying openly was a mobile phone, sir. Well, and a newspaper towards the end? And a newspaper on the train, sir, yes. Yes. So sorry, I just want to go back. I appreciate,
you know, you could look round the members of the jury and say, "Well, I can't rule out any of them haven't got X, Y and Z"? Yes, sir. But the question was really posed a different way. From
what you saw there was nothing that suggested to you, keeping a close eye on him, that he was a terrorist about to detonate a bomb, was there? There was nothing that I could confirm either way.
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I couldn't confirm whether he was carrying anything or whether he didn't have anything under his jacket, sir. Let us just go through that, because what I want to suggest to you is, keeping a close eye on him -I appreciate it could have been incredibly well hidden and all the rest of it, but I am looking at it the other way around. We now know, of course -- and I appreciate
this is hindsight -- that he didn't have anything. Sir. First of all -- and this is just up to the point that you sit down in the tube, so it's looking back over that previous 20 minutes, roughly speaking, all right? Yes, sir. He wasn't wearing any inappropriate or unusual clothing, was he? He was dressed virtually identical to myself, sir, yes. Appropriate to the weather?
Appropriate to the weather, sir, yes. Tab 59, the jury have it, and I'm not sure, It's
MR MANSFIELD:
I can't see from here whether you have it there.
in the jury bundle, probably volume 2, and if you look at tab 59. I'm not sure you have seen this before. I have only
I'm going to need some assistance, I think. up to 50 in this one. Sorry about that.
If you just look at volume 2.
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A. Q.
Yes. Tab 59, it's on screen as well so everybody can see it, but you might like to look at the hard copy, I don't know.
A. Q.
I have got it on the screen, it's not in the bundle. It's just the bottom left is where he's on the bus before you get on the bus, because I think the seat that's empty there, that he's walking past, is the seat you occupy when you get on the bus? say. Perhaps you can't
A. Q.
I can't confirm that, sir, no. We will leave that to one side. There he is dressed
obviously as you saw him, and what I would like you to note, especially when you see him in the foyer or concourse rather of the tube station, but at all times his jacket is undone, isn't it? A. Q. Yes, sir. And it's difficult to tell precisely but it looks as though, as you said, similar to you, he's just got a T-shirt or something underneath; yes? A. Q. Yes, sir, yes. Now, moving from the clothing and just keeping these images up for the moment -- there are others, obviously -- he's not carrying any container, everybody has confirmed that; no rucksack, no case, no container
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of any kind? His -- the way he's dressed and what he isn't carrying, ie he is not carrying a rucksack, is not consistent with the attempted attacks the day before, no, sir. No, absolutely. So he hasn't got that. I appreciate,
of course, one whittles it down and whittles it down, but he is not carrying anything, and you can see -well, it's not possibly entirely but there was no occasion did you notice, because perhaps you weren't looking particularly, but I'll have to ask you this: there are no wires protruding from his sleeves, or anything of that kind, that could be seen? I was looking particularly -You were looking? -- sir, yes. And you didn't notice that? All I can say on that issue is that I was looking to see if there were any indications. With regard to his
hands, I couldn't see the palms of his hands. I was just going to come to his hands. stages. If I could finish that, sir. using a mobile phone. All I did see was him I'll take it in
When I tried to take
an opportunity to actually examine his hands and his general demeanour -- but if I can just explain what was
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going through my mind at that time. Which time do you mean? Throughout the whole follow. All right. He wasn't carrying a rucksack, so that wasn't consistent with the attacks the day before. However, we do need to
learn lessons, and as we know on 7 July there were successful attacks on the Underground system and indeed a bus. I was aware that in the follow-up operation following those attacks that devices had been recovered, I believe, in Luton that were smaller. effect of those devices, I don't know. recovered was an improvised firearm. As for the blast But also All of this was
going through my mind at the time of the follow, sir. Yes, I do appreciate that, I am just suggesting that -just going on the Luton for a moment, you see, as far as the information or intelligence you had out of Luton, there was no intelligence from the Luton find that anything that was in the boot of the car was a component of a body-borne device. that effect, was there? All I was aware of is that smaller items had been recovered. know, sir. As to how they could be deployed, I don't There was no intelligence to
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Q.
I think, just going back to the question, as far as you could tell, and you were looking --
A. Q.
Yes. -- you weren't aware of seeing any wires protruding from his sleeves, and secondly you had obviously been looking at his hands, and I think you have mentioned that, quite closely?
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes, sir. Or -As close I could. -- as close as you could. Besides the mobile phone --
you have dealt with that -- one of the other aspects of this is that if it is a suicide bomber with a well-hidden device in his case underneath his T-shirt, he's going to have to detonate it somehow, isn't he? A. Q. Yes, sir, he is. Right? That stands to reason. I don't know whether you
are aware that one of the ways -- in fact I am going to suggest to you the principal way -- in which that might be detonated is by the person concerned putting his hand into one of his pockets, either the jacket pocket or the denim trousers pocket, where there is a battery which itself is connected internally in the clothing with whatever it is, the vest or the belt, and then with the hand that's in the pocket, connecting wires to the
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battery so that it detonates. technique? I understand, sir, yes.
Are you aware of that
At no stage that day did you ever see him with his hands, either hand, in any pocket for any length of time, did you? I don't recall seeing his hands in his pockets, although he wasn't under -- his hands weren't under my full control at all times. no, sir. I accept obviously you can't stare at him and you are not necessarily seeing him all the time. All these But I don't recall seeing that,
questions are qualified by the time that you did see him rather than you didn't. Do you follow?
Yes, I understand, sir, yes. I accept there will be periods. Right, so we are back
into the tube train carriage, do you follow, and you are sitting down? Yes, sir. Then if I may put it, there is a sea change in the situation as far as you are concerned, and you have touched on it here, but you summarised this at the trial last year. So could I just have one more passage of
your evidence. Am I able to see that?
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Q.
Yes, we will bring it up, so you can see exactly what you said. This is when you were being asked questions
by counsel for the prosecution and it's towards the end of your evidence-in-chief there, as its called, when first asked questions. It's on 8 October last year.
At the bottom of the page it's dealing with this question of feeling uncomfortable and so on, which you touched on -A. Q. Deeply uncomfortable, yes. That's right. You see that at the bottom. After you
have mentioned that, you then go on and say: "However, when I saw the CO19 officers on the platform, I had to make an assessment within seconds as to why they were there ..." A. Q. Yes. "... and I could only assess that the threat assessment had changed and that they were there out of some urgency. And given that, and given the fact that I may
be dealing with a terrorist subject involved in suicide terrorism, I could not afford to take a chance, and therefore my reaction was instinctive." SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR MANSFIELD: Yes. That's what you said last night. Very much the same. So that's your
clear recollection of that situation. Now, can I come to -- this is the second stage.
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Your mindset -- a word that you have used yourself -changes, doesn't it? Well, we need to go back to what happened in the foyer, sir. I don't want to repeat what's -I understand, but it's important that I asked that question because of my fears of letting him run on to the tube. I appreciate. I was told to wait and continue with surveillance. I had to rely on the threat assessment at that time. When I saw the CO19 officers, as I have said in my statement, I could only assess that the threat assessment had changed and they were there out of some urgency, ie was there intelligence to suggest that he was carrying something? Exactly. And he needed to be detained. I'm trying to say. Absolutely understood. problems. If I may say, this is one of the That is basically what So
We now know of course there wasn't any
intelligence to suggest he was carrying anything. I don't know whether you now know that? I do know that, sir, yes. Of course. Of course.
There wasn't any intelligence.
It's not just hindsight
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about we now know he was just an ordinary member of the public. The command and control operations room do not
suggest they had intelligence that he was. But I want to suggest what happened here -- and please understand this is absolutely no criticism of you or anything you did, quite the reverse; do you follow? Thank you, sir, yes. Not that at all. But what you did instinctively at that
moment was because of what you thought the control room must have in mind, wasn't it? It was only -- it was my assessment, sir, that -- that's the best way of summing it up. Yes, I understand. I am sorry to have to do this again,
as I said yesterday, just to go back over this very fast incident. You see them on the platform and you get up
and go to the doors -Yes. -- right opposite where you have been sitting and he is sitting; all right? Yes, sir. You don't look like a police officer, if I may say so, certainly wouldn't in your denim and all the rest of it; we have seen it on the camera. The two people on the
platform, they don't look like police officers either, do they, to an ordinary member of the public?
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A. Q. A.
Who are you talking about, the firearms officers? Yes. Apart from the fact that they are openly carrying firearms, sir.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Well, there is a logic in that.
And of
course not just any old pistols, they were carrying rifles, or long guns anyway. A. I saw one long-barrelled weapon, sir. Only one. One had a pistol, I think you
MR MANSFIELD:
called it a black pistol, a handgun, and the other one had a rather long-barrelled gun. A. Q. Yes, sir. We are not talking Schwarzenegger here or anything like that. We are talking: you are sitting on a tube --
I want in a sense to put you in his shoes as well for the moment. He is looking out of the door. He can see You
you stand up, he is capable of seeing you stand up.
go to the door, put your foot in the door; he won't see that necessarily. Two men in T shirts, one with
a handgun and one with a rather long-barrelled gun -now, this is happening very quickly, isn't it? A. Q. Yes, sir, it is. We are talking about five seconds, ten seconds, something like that? A. Less than ten seconds, sir.
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Q.
Less than ten seconds.
You gave a dramatic indication
yesterday to the jury that you made it very clear where he was by turning with your right arm, right, you held it out across here -A. Q. A. Q. Yes, sir, yes. -- showing the two there where he was (indicated)? Yes, sir. Of course in that situation, first of all, if you were sitting in his position and you saw that happen, you might be agitated, mightn't you? A. Q. I fully understand that, sir, yes. What I want to suggest to you -- I can't say what happened exactly because, as you appreciate now, the many passengers in that carriage were also in one form or another under certain amount of stress once this happens, as you would appreciate? A. Q. I accept that, sir, yes. So people have very different, even without stress, viewpoints necessarily. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Mr Mansfield? MR MANSFIELD: Certainly. After the shots obviously there was All I can ask you is that --
Could I just break that down a moment,
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
panic and screaming and general disruption in the carriage.
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A.
Yes, sir. Just focus for a moment on the very
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
short space of time when you heard shouting, two CO19 officers coming down the platform carrying guns, you standing up and pointing. A. Sir. Saying, "He's here", or it was Ken who I appreciate
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
said, "He's here", you pointing to him.
that you were focusing intensely on Mr de Menezes; I understand that. A. Yes, sir. Do you recollect any reactions of alarm
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
or agitation from other people in the carriage? A. No, sir. Now, again, you turn round within this
MR MANSFIELD:
ten-second window, and perhaps it's easier just to visualise it. It's in your bundle at tab 35, the It's on the
diagram of the carriage itself again. screen.
I think you have just accepted in one of the questions that the learned Coroner asked you this morning: with your back against the glass panel, with your left foot against the door, and you see where he's placed on this diagram, even sitting down he's only two or three feet away from you, isn't he? He's a very
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short distance from where you are standing when he's sitting down. He is a short distance from the door, but it's more than two or three feet, sir. From the door maybe, but from your right foot -- I am sorry to be particular, but from your position of standing back to the seat where he's sitting is really a very short distance? It is a short distance, sir, yes. You were checking the door with your
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: foot?
I was, sir, yes, as I explained. Which side of the doorway, left or
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
right on that plan? As you look at it, it's the right-hand side. Thank you.
And I was holding the door with my left foot and, as I explained, I was partially out of the carriage.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: platform?
Yes.
Do you mean one foot back on the
No, my left foot was in the door but I was partially leaning out.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Yes.
Leaning out?
MR MANSFIELD:
What I want to ask you is whether in fact
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what happened was he stood up and may have looked agitated, but for you to be able to push him back into the seat, he can't have been very far away from it. Is that possible, that he wasn't far away and you just, as you have already described, a kind of bear hug back into the seat? As I have explained, sir, he was on his feet and he was walking towards me. advancing. As I said in my statement, he was
He was away from the seat and, as you
appreciate, it is a confined area on the tube, so we are not talking about great distances here, sir. No, no, and -Can I put the question that has just
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
come in because it's directly in point? MR MANSFIELD: Yes, sir. Did you still have your rucksack on
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: your back?
I believe I have it over my left shoulder. so, sir. I can't be certain.
I believe
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
I think we know the answer to the next
question but I will put it. So far as you could tell -- I think it follows from the way they behaved -- certainly up to the time that you were ejected from the carriage after the shooting, the CO19 officers had not identified you as a police
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officer? I can't comment, sir. You would have to speak to them. Well, that's the answer to
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
We will.
the question, really. comment on. No, sir.
It's not something you can
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR MANSFIELD:
Hang on a minute.
It's perfectly all right. Well, it's an adjunct to the same
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: question.
You had your chequered cap in your pocket?
In my jacket pocket, yes. Did you consider putting it on before
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
you actually pointed out Mr de Menezes? This would be quite a lengthy answer, sir. It's a very
important issue and obviously I need to explain -MR MANSFIELD: A. Certainly, yes.
-- exactly the reasons for my actions. Yes.
As I explained yesterday, I was sat on the tube to the left of Mr de Menezes and, as I stated in the trial and my statements, I was deeply uncomfortable. However,
I was prepared to continue with the surveillance follow. My assessment was I was trying to keep as tight a control of Mr de Menezes as I possibly could, that being peripheral vision to my right and also trying to
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monitor him in the reflection of the window of the tube opposite. I couldn't have total control of him, which
is why I felt quite uncomfortable, bearing in mind the context of the deployment, that is we are deployed against suspected failed suicide bombers. However, I was prepared to continue with the surveillance, and what was going through my mind at the time was that if Mr de Menezes did anything that I assessed to be a threat to the public or myself, then I, supported by my colleagues on the tube, would have to deal with it. So that was my mindset as I was sat on the tube, sir. MR MANSFIELD: Yes, I think -- sorry, do go on. Yes, go on.
As the CO19 officers appeared, I had to make an assessment within seconds as to what to do. It
appeared that they did not know where Mr de Menezes was and, as I have already stated, I was unaware that they were deploying into the tube station because I had lost comms with them as I deployed down the escalator. As I said yesterday, I assessed that they were there in relation to the activities of Mr de Menezes and, as I have said in my statement, I assessed that they were there to carry out an armed stop, that being
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an aggressive detention at gunpoint. My concern was if Mr de Menezes saw them before they saw him then he might react, if he was indeed what we suspected he might have been. So my instinct was -- my
other concern was that, having done that, the train doors would close, the train would pull away, and I would be left on the train with a compromised subject. Whether he was carrying a device or not, a cornered terrorist is an extremely dangerous option. That's why
I stood up and put my foot in the door: to keep the door open, to prevent the train from leaving the station. Secondly, it was important that I pointed out to them who the subject of the operation -SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Yes, sir. Yes. Before he realised who you were?
Now, obviously I considered the cap; and this is happening probably in about two seconds, I have got to make this decision. So I decided not to put the cap on
because I would have to walk straight in front of him with a police cap on. If the train doors closed, it's That is my logic in not
down to me to deal with it.
putting the cap on at that time, sir. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: I think we all follow all of that. It
comes to this: you couldn't afford to give him any
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warning that you were a police officer before you had actually had the opportunity to grab him? That's right, sir, yes. That's in a sentence what it's all
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: about? Yes.
Thank you very much.
May I just follow that on, because I want to
suggest that the two that came on with arms didn't want to give him any warning either. putting to you? I understand, sir, yes. I think you are not in a position to say, are you, that either of those two that you can recall actually shouted anything? As I said yesterday, sir, all I can recall at that stage is that I heard shouting. But that was from the direction of the platform? Initially, yes, but at that stage there was still shouting, sir. Yes? And as I have explained, my -- almost my entire focus at that time was on trying to deal with Mr de Menezes. When you were -- can I just, and I am really sorry for the detail -Do you follow what I am
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A. Q.
Sir, I understand it's important. -- because it's most distressing for you, because your head is next to his when shots are fired and you must at that stage obviously have been extremely concerned that you were going to yourself get hit, even if only by accident. You must have been concerned for yourself at
that point; would that be fair? A. All I can say on that is that at that stage, yes, I was -- I was pretty shaken up, sir, I think that's -Q. That's absolutely understandable. All I wanted to ask
you, if you just for one second put yourself back with the head next to his, did you hear anyone shout at that point -- at that very point -- "armed police", with your head next to his? A. I can't say either way. All I can say, sir, is that I can't be
during the incident I could hear shouting. any more specific, sir. Q. All right.
Because there is no dispute to this extent:
the reason I'm asking you carefully is that we will hear that of the civilians on the railway carriage, and there may be reasons for it, no-one else seems to have heard the words "armed police". I am asking you this. A. Q. I understand, sir. But there is no dispute that "police" or "armed police" Do you follow? That's why
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was certainly being shouted afterwards to clear the carriage. Is there some possibility that events, because of the shock you had yourself, have become in the ten seconds concertinaed and although the word "police" was shouted, it wasn't until just afterwards? Is that
a possibility, that you in other words elided -- do you understand what I am putting? I understand. Is there any possibility? I can't comment on that, sir. There is only one other aspect of it, and it's really a detail. His hands -- you have described a football in But at
front of him, as though he's holding a football.
the point at which you see his hands -- I appreciate because of what you have seen, the armed officers -anything he did from then on was liable to be misconstrued, wasn't it; there is a risk of that? I can only comment on what I saw, sir, and I have explained my actions. Yes, I understand why you may think, because he has his hands out front, that: oh, is he going to go for something in his waistband? it. Not in those words, sir, but I understand what you are That is how you have put
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saying. That's the thrust of what you were concerned about? Yes, sir. I think this is a question again you will just say: well, I really don't remember. window, you certainly -It was probably less than that, sir. All right, less than ten seconds. it to a particular figure. of time. I don't mean to pin In that ten-second
A very, very short interval
Would it be fair to say you don't recall
anybody saying, shouting an order to him, "Stand still", "Don't move", "Put your hands in the air"; nothing like that that you recall? All I recall is hearing shouting, sir, nothing more specific. Nothing more specific. The trouble of course is that even if
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
anybody does shout words to that effect, it doesn't stop him from doing whatever it is he is intent on doing. I would accept that, sir, yes. That's the realistic problem that you
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
were dealing with. Yes, sir. Can I just go back to the briefing and so on Were you familiar with
MR MANSFIELD:
earlier on, or even before that.
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Kratos training; is that something you knew about? I was aware of it, sir. Were you aware of what the conditions were for the delivery of, if you like, a brain stem handgun critical shot? No, sir. officer. So you didn't know about that, all right. One final question, it's a point of information: as a Special Branch officer with the experience you have had, did you have anything to do with Operation Ragstone? Not personally, sir, no. So you didn't go to the Lake District? I did not, sir. Thank you very much indeed. That is the realm of the specialist firearms
MR MANSFIELD: A.
Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr Mansfield. Yes,
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Mr Stern.
Questions from MR STERN MR STERN: A. Q. Ivor, I represent C2 and C12.
Thank you, sir. At the Health and Safety trial, the learned judge described your instinctive acts of courage as magnificent and he commended you. I would like to echo
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those words, if I may. Thank you, sir. Can I ask you some details about the tube itself. first is this, and I'm afraid it's a little mundane following what I have just said, but were you wearing a baseball cap on the tube? A black baseball cap, sir. You mean an anonymous cap? The
Yes, not a police -- yes, an anonymous one. On the tube, you said you saw four men moving
MR STERN:
along the platform? Yes, sir. They were moving, as you were looking at them, from your right? From my right, sir, yes. Then I think within 10 or 15 seconds you went over to the doorway; is that right? than that? It was a much shorter period than that. I think Or was it a shorter period
I described it was after I had seated; it was 10 to 15 seconds later that I saw the four men, sir. When you saw them, were they walking in your direction? Yes, they were. You also told us that they appeared to be looking into the carriage as if they were searching for someone?
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A. Q.
That was my assessment, sir, yes. My recollection of your evidence was that you saw two people with firearms, the first one with a handgun?
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes, sir. And one further back, I think, with a rifle? Yes, sir. You got up and went to the door, as you have told us, and put your foot in the door, and obviously you had to be a little out of it in order to be able to prevent those heavy doors from closing?
A. Q.
Yes, sir. At that point, you shouted, "He's here", and you have demonstrated that to us.
A. Q.
Yes, sir. It was after you had shouted, "He's here", that the word "police" or such other shouting in addition to that was heard by you, and I am taking that from the evidence you gave at the Health and Safety trial.
A.
Yes, sir, if I can just confirm in my statement. I believe that's the case, if I could just confirm.
Q.
No, of course, please do.
I can give you the page
reference if you would like for the evidence he gave at the trial if you want to look. A. Yes, sir, that's correct. Can you read the passage?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
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MR STERN:
From the statement or from the evidence? The statement, because that came first.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR STERN: A. Yes.
"I shouted, 'He's here', and indicated to the male in denim jacket with my right hand. I then heard shouting
which included the word 'police' and turned to face the male in the denim jacket." SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR STERN: Thank you.
As soon as you turned, you saw the male start to
advance, get out of his seat and start to advance towards you? A. Q. He stood up and advanced towards me, sir, yes. You way you put it in a document in November 2005 was this, that: "... the male in the denim jacket, who had got up from his seat and appeared to react to the presence of the armed police ..." You may not have that document in front of you. A. Q. No, I don't. Page 1491 in the documents. It's the third paragraph:
"It is, however, important to emphasise that at the time of the shouting almost my entire focus was directed towards dealing with the man in the denim jacket, who had got up from his seat and appeared to react to the presence of the armed police officers ..."
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. A. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.
Then you grabbed him, as you say in your statement? Yes, sir. That was your feeling at the time, was it? That was my assessment, yes. You have given a time estimate of ten seconds. Less than that, sir. Less than ten seconds? Yes, my -Could you -- I am sorry. No, please.
It was much less than ten seconds. He did not give -- ten seconds he Much, much less. It was less than ten seconds, much less.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: wouldn't have. Yes, sir, yes.
MR STERN:
You mentioned ten seconds and I wanted to ask you
what that related to. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR STERN: The ten seconds came from Mr Mansfield.
What was the period of time, if you could help us
then, please, from the time that you heard the shout to the time of the first shot? Are we talking -It was
Oh ... it was a very short period of time.
certainly less than ten seconds, and I am only estimating, in the region of the whole incident, in the region of five to ten seconds. The whole incident, five to ten seconds? Yes.
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Q.
I think you believed, as you put in your statement, that there were CCTV cameras on the Underground; I think everybody knows that there are?
A. Q.
Yes, sir. You were of the view in your statement that there was an possibility that the actions that you had taken, and indeed other people on the platform, may have been recorded?
A. Q.
Of course, sir. At the time you wrote your statement you didn't know whether or not there was a record of that?
A.
I assumed there was, sir. You assumed there was. Yes. Ms Leek? Yes, thank you very much.
MR STERN:
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MS LEEK:
No questions, sir, thank you. Mr Perry?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR PERRY:
No questions, sir, thank you. Mr King?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR KING:
No, thank you, sir. Yes, Mr Horwell.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Questions from MR HORWELL MR HORWELL: Ivor, my name is Richard Horwell. I appear on
behalf of the Commissioner. A. Q. Thank you, sir. Can I just start first, please, with the briefing that
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you had that morning. please?
Could we put the transcript up,
8 October, page 160, line 24, please: Also by the time you had the briefing,
"Question:
there were four addresses the subject of interest that you were given. Firstly Scotia Road, that you have told
us about; then after you were given the details of the car that had been found close to Scotia Road, there was an address in Portnall Road, was there not? "Answer: "Question: "Answer: "Question: "Answer: 161 Portnall Road, I believe, yes. ... 34 Mitcham Lane? Yes. And 60 Corfe House, Dorset Road ... Yes, it was given as 60 Corfe House, it
was either Dawcett ... or Dorset Road ..." At the time of this briefing, those four addresses were given to you and you could have gone to any one of them; is that right? Yes, sir. As you understood it to be? As I understood it to be, yes. Two suspects, four addresses. As you understood it at
the time of this briefing, was it more likely than not that you would have been sent to one rather than the other, or were all options open? I don't know, sir. I think it's fair to say all options
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were open. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: As far as you were concerned, you did
what you were told? Exactly -- yes, sir, yes. Of course.
MR HORWELL:
In relation to the questions that Mr Mansfield was asking you this morning about looking at Mr de Menezes to see whether or not there were any signs that he was a suicide bomber, you no doubt approached this issue on the basis that suicide bombers do not make a habit of advertising either their murderous intent or their hidden explosive devices? That is the massive problem we face with this sort of threat, sir, yes. It is the most enormous dilemma that a police officer faces in these circumstances, looking for either positives or negatives, very unlikely you will receive indications one way or the other, because that is the nature of the suicide terrorist? That is correct, sir, yes. We have heard evidence of reports when Mr de Menezes was at Brixton that he was very jumpy or nervous. reports come from you? No, sir. Can I turn to some basic and, I hope, uncontroversial Did those
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principles. CO19 specialist firearms officers are the best-trained and equipped police officers to conduct an armed stop of a possible suicide bomber? I accept that, sir, yes. In July 2005 the training, equipment and expertise of SO12 surveillance officers in conducting an armed stop of a possible suicide bomber did not even begin to compare to that of the specialist firearms officer, did it, Ivor? I accept that, sir, yes. You in fact had had no training by July 2005 in relation to the stopping of a suicide bomber? A confirmed suicide bomber? A possible suicide bomber. No, sir. Do you accept that in a difficult investigation of this type the operations room is best placed to decide how to use or deploy its available resources? Yes, I accept that, sir. At the time you entered the station concourse -- and we saw the film of this last night, we will play it again if necessary -Sir. But at the time you entered the concourse, were you
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aware where in fact Ken was? I was aware that he was close to me and I was aware that he was to my right-hand side, sir. So if there was to have been a stop in the concourse, it would have been you and Ken? Probably, sir. As I explained last night, it would have
been dependent on where the subject was. Now, there was reference yesterday to a potential nod and a wink between you and Ken before this stop -- all of this is hypothetical, Ivor, we appreciate that -- but there was reference yesterday to a nod and a wink between you and Ken before this stop would have taken place? Sir, yes. Again, I am sure you will be the first to accept that a nod and a wink is no substitute for a detailed firearms briefing? I wouldn't describe it as a briefing, sir. a dynamic incident. It is as far removed from a briefing as it is possible -Absolutely, sir, yes. I have an uneasy feeling, Mr Horwell, This is
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
that the phrase came from me. MR HORWELL: I am far too polite to confirm that, sir, but
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that's the spirit in which it is intended, as you can imagine. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: We were discussing the possibility of
a spontaneous interception on the concourse because Ken was close by, obviously done in such a way that didn't alarm the subject of the surveillance. MR HORWELL: Of course, of course. I am not sure, in fact, that Ivor
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
necessarily agreed with me that a nod and a wink would have been enough. MR HORWELL: I think he nodded. Yes. It would have been something
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
pretty surreptitious, would it not? Yes, sir. Now, this man at this stage was a possible for
MR HORWELL:
Hussain Osman, wasn't he? A possible, yes, sir. And you gave evidence yesterday as to your intention to arrest this man if the order had been given? It was an offer I made, sir, yes, and had I been told to do it, I was in a position, I felt, to do it, sir. Obviously before there can be an arrest there has to be a reasonable suspicion that this man is the terrorist, Hussain Osman? I don't necessarily accept that, sir.
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Q.
All right.
But that would have been the basis upon
which this arrest would have been made; that there was reasonable evidence to suggest that he was Hussain Osman? A. Well, as I explained yesterday, I could say that he wasn't identical with Omar, he was a possible for Osman, but he also, in my mind, was an associate who had come out of 21 Scotia Road. So as an associate he would
equally have been of interest to me, sir. Q. A. Q. All right, Ivor, I understand. Do you understand? I do, thank you. Now, whether Hussain Osman or whether an associate, if Hussain Osman, the previous day he had attempted to commit mass murder in London? A. Q. Yes, sir. And if Hussain Osman, he may have had that intent on this morning; it follows, obviously? A. Q. Quite possibly, yes. You have dealt with this already, but may I go back to it very briefly: he may have been armed -A. Q. A. Q. Yes, sir. -- this man, he may have had a bomb? Yes, sir. And arresting this man in those circumstances was always
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going to be a dangerous and risky operation? Yes, sir. Now, you were asked yesterday a number of hypotheticals and I'm going to ask you some more, Ivor, if I may. Sir. Mr de Menezes acted in an unpredictable manner on the Underground train, didn't he? He was the only passenger
that you were aware of who got up at the time the armed officers appeared? That's not a fair assessment, sir, because my entire focus was on him. passengers. That's why I put the question in the way that I did: he was the only one that you were aware of? Yes, sir. Not only did he stand up, he actually walked towards the armed officers in a state, in a condition that you described in your statement as being "agitated"? Yes, sir. You didn't expect that to happen? I didn't want it to happen, sir. No doubt you didn't expect it to happen, did you? I didn't know what to expect, sir. All right. Mr de Menezes's behaviour that morning I can't comment on the rest of the
caused you to spring forward and hold him?
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A.
"Spring forward" are your words, sir.
As I have said in
my statement, if I could refer to my statement -Q. A. Let us not worry about the words. You understood that I grabbed him around the torso and pinned his arms to his sides? Q. Yes, very quickly indeed you took hold of his torso and you pushed him back into his seat? A. Q. Yes, sir. As you told us yesterday, you thought that you might die? A. Q. I said I was in fear for my life, yes, sir. You said yesterday, and indeed you have said in the course of your evidence on at least two occasions at the Health and Safety trial, that you acted instinctively? A. Q. Yes, sir. No doubt what was happening at the time caused you to act instinctively, but equally no doubt, Ivor, the atmosphere in July 2005, the bombings on 7 July and the attempted bombings on the 21st, they must have had some part to play in that instinctive reaction, rationalising it as best as one can; do you not agree? A. Well, I have already explained that I was briefed that we were deployed against suspected suicide bombers, so obviously my risk assessment is quite high. Q. Accordingly. Ivor, we have two months at this inquest
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to receive evidence as to what happened that morning. You probably had about two seconds to decide what to do when Mr de Menezes stood up and walked towards you? Yes, sir. Going back to the station concourse and back to the hypotheticals, Ivor, again. Sir. If you had attempted to arrest that man in the concourse and he had reacted in an unusual or unpredictable or a surprising way, and if you believed that your life and the lives of the public around you were in danger, and your instincts were not only of self-preservation but of protecting the public, hypothetically you might have shot this man, if you considered that the danger was immediate? I can't comment on that, sir. You can't comment? Can I just qualify -You might have drawn your weapon?
If I could just qualify, sir, I fully accept that, as I said yesterday, that CO19 are highly trained, well-equipped and highly motivated professional individuals, and they are without doubt the best unit to have carried out that detention in the foyer.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Yes, but -- forgive me interrupting --
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what Mr Horwell is putting to you is if it had to be you because CO19 weren't there. That's why I made the offer, sir. I appreciate that. I want to follow it through.
MR HORWELL:
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Just to take Mr Horwell's question, if
you had attempted to do it and he had reacted in a hostile or uncompromising or uncooperative way, I fully accept you really can't say whether you might have shot him; do you think you might have produced your weapon and called out "armed police"? It was an option, as I explained yesterday, and I had a range of options open to me. are saying, sir. The reason I made the request was that as a police officer my first duty is to protect the public. Particularly as an authorised firearms officer, I'm also duty-bound to protect the public. I had fears in I fully accept what you
allowing Mr de Menezes to run through the barrier. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. We understand.
And I fully accept that CO19 were -- I wouldn't say "best placed", but they are the best unit to have carried that out. I was offering to do, as I explained
yesterday, in order to try to protect the public.
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If I could just reiterate, as he was approaching the barrier he had a newspaper in one hand, he had a ticket in the other. ticket. He was preoccupied with using that
I felt that it may have been a viable option to
have carried out the action that I explained yesterday, and that is using officer safety techniques that I grab his left arm, my colleague grabs his right arm, we take him to the floor, we cuff him, possibly evacuate the station and seek further directions. But I fully accept
that CO19 are the best-trained unit to do this, sir. MR HORWELL: But on the basis of what might hypothetically
have happened, Ivor, as the Coroner has asked of you, of course if this had gone wrong and if you had thought that the safety of the public was in immediate danger, you may well have drawn your firearm? I don't know, sir. The word you used is "if" and we are
talking hypothetically, sir. All right. You will only go so far, it seems, in terms
of hypotheticals? SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: hypotheticals. MR HORWELL: Of course it is. The first question is: it depends how In fairness of course it is a series of
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
successful your tackle is. Indeed, sir.
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SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
If you and Ken had grabbed him at the
right time and got him down to the ground, there might have been no necessity to go that far. A. Indeed. Indeed, sir. It all depends on what happens.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HORWELL:
And thereafter it is pure speculation. It is in the lap of the gods.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HORWELL: A.
I accept that, and thank you.
Thank you, sir. Mr Horwell, Mr Stern has drawn
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
attention to the comments of Mr Justice Henriques at the end of the Health and Safety trial after the verdict was in, and he has reminded us of the glowing tribute that the learned judge paid to Ivor. I think it might be of
comfort to Ivor if he knew what the Metropolitan Police Service view was about that tribute. MR HORWELL: Sir, I hope it is understood and accepted that So that everyone can
we fully support those words.
understand, the Metropolitan Police Service do not take the view that this is a platform for apologies and words of the nature that you have described, sir. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HORWELL: I know.
That will come after this inquest. But as it has been introduced this
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
morning -- I say no more about it than that -- I thought
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I would give you the opportunity to support it. MR HORWELL: Sir, we fully support those words. Ivor, as
did other officers that day, acted with extreme bravery and without regard to their own safety. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HORWELL: Thank you.
The commendation cannot be higher than that. Thank you very much. Mr Gibbs.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Questions from MR GIBBS MR GIBBS: Sir, could I just pick up something rather more
mundane than that? Ivor, you have described how you were wearing more or less the same as Mr de Menezes was wearing? Yes, sir. And that you found it difficult to tell whether he was or whether he wasn't carrying about his person something which might have been dangerous in one way or another? Yes, sir. Concealed underneath the similar clothing that you were wearing, what were you carrying? To confirm, yes, I was dressed virtually identically to Mr de Menezes and I was carrying a range of operational police equipment, and that included a covert surveillance radio. Yes. A spare battery for that radio.
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SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: phone? A.
How big is that; the size of a mobile
No, much larger, sir, at that stage. How is it secured?
It's secured in a harness, and on that occasion it was secured to the left-hand side of my torso.
Thank you.
I had a spare battery for that radio. How big is that?
MR GIBBS: A. Q. A.
This is the old Cougar system. Yes. That's about two and a half to three inches square. I was carrying, as we know, a Glock 17 pistol.
Q. A. Q.
How big is that? (Indicated) Thank you.
Just show us.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
There was a possibility that somebody If, Mr Hilliard, we
might get hold of a photograph.
could ask those instructing you to see what they can dig out. I dare say Mr Horwell will be able to help. We can discuss it with Mr Stern and of course
MR HORWELL:
a photograph can be available when the firearms officers -SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: It was my reaction to suggestion that
we actually produce a pistol.
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MR HORWELL:
I understand. I thought that was going an bit too
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: far. MR HORWELL: MR GIBBS: A. Q.
We will do that. A Glock pistol. A spare magazine?
A spare magazine -How big is that? Well, it fits into the butt of the
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
pistol, doesn't it? A. Four to five inches long, loaded with 17 rounds. mobile phones. MR GIBBS: A. Q. We understand how big a mobile telephone is. Two
And a chequered police cap. Right. So the cap doesn't take up much room, but you,
covertly so that no one else in the bus or in the tube can see that you are doing so, have a gun and the spare magazine, a radio that is significantly bigger than a mobile telephone and a spare battery, two mobile telephones and something that identifies you as a police officer should you put it on your head? A. Q. Yes, sir. If there had been another surveillance officer unrelated to your team in the bus or in the tube, would he or should he have been able to tell whether or not you were carrying all of those things?
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A. Q.
No, sir. There is just one other thing, because the jury asked a question yesterday, a member of the jury asked about what you meant or what it meant by the phrase "remaining covert". So can we just try to understand? I think
that question may give us an opportunity to understand what the job involves that you do. There are two main roles, am I right, for a surveillance officer; one is to follow and not to lose the person you are following, and the other is to gather information; am I right? A. Gathering information, yes, sir. With regard to the
first part, we generally would not look to lose the subject, particularly in an operation of this sort. However, there may be occasion where we will intentionally lose the subject for fear of compromising the deployment. However, in an operation of this sort,
it would appear imperative that we wouldn't lose the subject. Q. By "gathering information", I include of course gathering information, whatever information you can, about the identity of the subject? A. Q. Yes, sir. There is a tension, an obvious tension, isn't there, between on the one hand getting close enough so that you
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don't lose the person and don't lose an opportunity to gather information, and on the other hand not getting so close that you risk the person realising he's being followed? That is the balance, sir, yes. Would I be right in thinking that -- because you have followed lots of different sorts of people over the years, I have no doubt? Yes, sir. That where you are dealing with a failed suspected suicide bomber, the risks involved should the person realise that he is being followed are disproportionately higher than in most follows? I would accept that, sir. Because there is a risk that if the person realised that he is being followed, he may do something really terrible? As I said earlier in my evidence, a cornered terrorist is an extremely dangerous option, sir. When you set out on a follow, am I right in thinking that you don't know for how long and how many times you are going to be the person who is the eye on the subject? That's correct, sir, yes. Because when you are, as you were, first the eye, you
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don't know when next or if you are next going to be the eye, you don't want to be too obvious, in fact you mustn't be obvious at all, to the person you are following? Yes, sir. Did that inform, for instance, where you sat on the bus, what you did on the bus, how often you looked across on the bus and so on? As I explained yesterday, sir, I had to maintain a balance between maintaining vision on Mr de Menezes and remaining covert, sir. Then when you were again the eye, at the Stockwell tube station in the concourse and downstairs in the carriage, did that risk that you might be recognised -- if this person was who he might have been -- as someone who had been on the bus sooner, for instance, inform where you sat, how far away and what you did? That was a risk, sir. surveillance. It's always a risk with covert
It was summer and there is a limited
opportunity to carry changes of clothing, for example. Had you managed to change your clothing at all between the two moments? All I managed to do was change my baseball cap from a beige baseball cap to a black baseball cap, which is what I was wearing on the tube, sir.
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Q.
Was that to mitigate the risk of someone identifying you as having been on the bus and now also being on the tube?
A. Q.
An attempt to do that, yes, sir. Lastly this: there has been a lot of talk about self-preservation, but actually when you grabbed Mr de Menezes, who were you looking to preserve?
A.
The public, sir. Questions from THE CORONER
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Thank you, Mr Gibbs.
Two things, please: as you have told us, one of the functions of the follow, apart from keeping tabs on the person you are following, is, where possible, to get more intelligence, more information -A. Yes, sir. -- that may assist with the
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
identification procedure. By the time you got to Stockwell station, you got there ahead of him into the foyer -A. Yes, sir. -- of the station, and he came in and
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
you saw him pass you, and you followed him down to the platform. As I have understood it, nothing happened in
that period which would have added to your information about him in any significant way?
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A.
No, sir. In those circumstances, because
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
identification as a process was not going forward, would it be right to suppose that at that stage your prime concern was with stopping him, or was there another or other concerns? A. The other concern, sir, as I explained, was that he was running down the escalator and it was a big concern that I was going to lose him, sir. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Yes, sir. Because at that stage, as I understood So it was keeping touch with him?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
your evidence, you thought that the situation might well be that the follow would be allowed to continue. A. That was my assessment, sir, yes. That was your assessment of what you
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
thought the situation then was? A. Yes, sir. It wasn't until the CO19 officers came
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
into sight that your assessment changed as to what the situation might now be? A. Yes, sir. Very well.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
The second question I want to ask you is this: the two CO19 officers entered the carriage from behind you,
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because by that time you had turned towards Mr de Menezes and your back was towards them. Yes, to my left, sir, yes. would have been. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Yes, sir. I appreciate you don't have CO19 Half left, as it were? Over my left shoulder it
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
training and so you may not be able to answer this question, but what did you expect they were going to do or what did you think they might do, or did you not have any idea? I can't comment, sir. You don't have any idea?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. No, sir.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Thank you very much.
Mr Hilliard.
Further questions from MR HILLIARD MR HILLIARD: Only this: you were asked whether -- do you
remember? -- you were the source of any report that Mr de Menezes had been jumpy or nervous at Brixton and you said: no, you weren't, and indeed you had not seen him in your view behaving, is this right, either very jumpily or very nervously when he was at Brixton? I didn't use those terms, no, sir. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. That is
MR HILLIARD:
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Thank you very much indeed.
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all.
You are free to stand down.
That might be
a convenient moment, Mr Hilliard. MR HILLIARD: Yes, sir. 11.30, please, ladies and gentlemen. (The witness withdrew) (11.24 am) (A short break)
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
(11.35 am)
(In the presence of the jury) SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HILLIARD: Yes, Mr Hilliard.
The next witness is Tim. Can I ask while he is coming in, does Just say if anybody does. Does
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
anybody want Adam?
anybody want Hotel 11? No.
Yes, I think somebody might. Yes. All I need is
Does anybody want Geoff?
a "yes".
That has got rid of two witnesses, anyway,
subject to reading them. MR HOUGH: Perhaps first of all time can be given to those
on my right to respond to those quick requests. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: universal assent. MR HOUGH: Almost. Take your time, Mr Horwell. I have I am sorry, I thought there was
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
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bowled you the ball; if you want to either deflect it to leg or just block it, let me know. MR HORWELL: I am very keen to say we don't want them, but
a minute or two's time. MR HOUGH: Also to avoid ambiguity perhaps people can
indicate to us privately whether they would like those statements to be read. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: I am perfectly happy to read them under
rule 37 if anyone wants them read. CODENAME "TIM" (sworn) SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Thank you, sir. Questions from MR HILLIARD MR HILLIARD: You are going to be known as "Tim" for the Thank you, Tim. Please sit down.
purpose of these proceedings? That's correct, sir. I am going to ask you some questions first of all on behalf of the Coroner, then you may be asked questions by others; all right? Yes, sir. In July 2005, I think you were a detective constable working with a surveillance unit attached to SO12 Special Branch; is that right? That's correct, sir, yes. I am going to ask you about 22 July of that year in
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particular, and I think you have made a number of statements about that day, including one dated 23 July; is that right? That's correct, sir, yes. statements, I believe. Do you have copies of them there? I have, from the Health and Safety trial, yes. I am sure you understand by now there is no difficulty about you looking at any of those if you need to. Thank you, sir. So on the 22nd you had been to the briefing that we had heard about at New Scotland Yard; is that right? That's correct, sir, yes. You were going to go with the grey team, weren't you, on the operation they were involved with that day? Yes, sir. You had a particular role; is that right? Yes, I was a photographer. You were surveillance photographer? That's correct, sir, yes. What does that come to: that if there was the opportunity of take pictures of anything relevant, then that would be your job to do it? Indeed, sir. I ran along with the team and anyone I have made a total of eight
pertaining to -- any person or building pertaining to
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that operation I would try and get photography of. Right. In the course of the briefing you were shown
photographs, including one that we have seen many times now of Mr Osman, who was known as Nettle Tip? That's correct, sir, yes. You didn't keep any copy of that? No, I didn't, sir. I think you were armed with a Glock 9mm handgun and ammunition; is that right? That's correct, sir, yes. Shortly before 9 o'clock in the morning, did you go to the vicinity of Scotia Road? I did, sir, yes. So we can see where you were -- it will come up on the screen -- divider 11, please, page 23A. I think you
were just south of somewhere called Christchurch Road; is that right? I was, sir. There is nothing on my screen. We will do it the
No, nothing on my screen either.
old-fashioned way: if you turn to -It is there now. Yes, south of Christchurch --
I believe it was just off this map, sir. All right. But you have in pink there Scotia Road,
Marnfield Crescent and Upper Tulse Hill? Yes, I have, sir, yes.
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Q.
Below that it's in orange, a big road, Christchurch Road?
A. Q. A. Q.
That's right, yes. You think just off the map? Yes, just south of this map here, yes. All right. Can you just help us with this: at any time,
as it were, that morning, from the briefing onwards until if we say the shooting that we know happened, had you heard anything about buses stopping or not stopping at any stage in the morning? A. I had heard the team leader from the red team, Derek, mention over the radio, the Cougar channel, that he was trying to suspend bus services in that vicinity. all I heard re the bus services. Q. A. Do you know whenabouts that was? It was between the time that I arrived and also the time that Mr de Menezes came out of the address. Q. A. Q. Right. I believe. Right. That's some time after 9.30, isn't it, that he That's
comes out of the address? A. Q. Yes, that's correct, yes. Were you aware of a transmission to the effect that someone had come out of the address? A. Yes, because I had started to move towards the vicinity
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of where effectively it then -- James had said he had seen him go towards Tulse Hill. Right. So I was then manoeuvering myself around to try to get in that area. Were you also aware, did you hear that he had got on a number 2 bus that was going in the direction of Brixton? That's correct, sir, yes, I was. You were tasked, is this right, by James to get close to the bus if you could to take a photograph? I was, sir, yes. It was the intention that I try and
get some imagery of the subject that had come out and to either prove or disprove identity. That job in particular, was the aim that you should try and do that when the bus was in the vicinity of Brixton tube? It was whenever I could get a chance to do that, sir. Did you in fact ever manage to do that? I didn't, sir, no, because I never saw Mr de Menezes at any time. Right. No, sir. Never took any photographs of him either? No, sir. So you never saw him?
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Q.
Right.
Were you aware again of the bus moving off from
Brixton; he having got off it, got back on it? A. I was, sir, yes. At that time I was -- I had gone past
the bus and I was held just in front of the bus trying to locate where Mr de Menezes was, but I couldn't, and then the bus came past me. Q. We heard about Ivor, who had been on the bus, he had got off it and then got a lift with you; is that right? A. Q. That's correct, sir, yes. I picked him up.
And in fact gave him a lift, although you obviously didn't know where you were going to end up when you started, but gave him a lift and I think he got out at Stockwell station; is that right?
A. Q.
That's correct, sir, yes. In that area, Stockwell station, did you hear that Mr de Menezes, as I'm going to call him, had got off the bus?
A. Q.
I did.
I heard that he was walking towards the tube.
I want to ask you about four events, and I'm going to give you them in no particular order but I would like you to put them in an order for us as you tell us about them; all right?
A. Q.
Okay, sir. First of all I think you are going to tell us that you heard "state red" called; is that right?
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A. Q.
Trojan control "state red", sir. That's one thing I want to ask you about. I think you heard, is this right, about Mr de Menezes being in the tube and going down the escalator?
A. Q. A. Q.
That's correct, sir, yes. So that's another thing. Yes. All right. Ivor asking James if he should prevent the man entering the tube; did you hear that?
A. Q.
I did, sir, yes.
I relayed that.
You relayed that, we have heard about that, because he was on, as it were, a body set, wasn't he?
A. Q. A.
Yes, that's right. And you had a set in the vehicle? That's right. He was a footman, he had a body set on.
I was in a vehicle, so I relayed back -SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. I did, sir, yes. Then Trojan control asking where the subject You stayed in your van, did you?
MR HILLIARD:
was and James saying that he had lost communication; do you remember that? A. James said that -- after that question was posed James had said that he didn't know where the subject was
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because he was down the tube and comms had been lost. So those things, I want to -- so it's "state red", subject being in the tube and down the escalator, Ivor asking if he should prevent him entering the tube, Trojan control asking where the subject was; can you put those in an order for us, please? It was Ivor asking whether he should prevent Mr de Menezes going down the tube. Just pause. So Ivor has left your vehicle?
That's correct, yes. Then you have heard, is this right, over the radio, Ivor asking James if he should prevent the man entering the tube? That's correct, yes. The batting order is what?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HILLIARD:
If we just deal with them one at a time then We can't do them all at once.
we will get the order.
So that's the first of the four I asked you about, isn't it? Yes, sir. You told us that you then relayed that over the Cougar system because you have, what, a more powerful system in your vehicle -That's correct. -- than he had on his body set?
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A. Q.
Yes. So that's the first of them. Then of the other things
I asked about, what happens next? A. Q. A. Mr de Menezes, I hear he's running down the escalator. Right. And then I hear Trojan control "state red", and then I hear asking -- Trojan control asking James where the subject is. Q. A. And James said? James said he didn't know because he was down the tube and comms had been lost. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Let us get this right. The first thing
is Ivor asking if he should make the stop? A. That's correct, sir, yes. Second, that Mr de Menezes is now going
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
down the tube, going down the escalators, going down the tube? A. What --
Prior to that, I had also heard James waiting, saying "awaiting decision".
That's the answer to the request.
Yes, that's correct, sir, yes. Answer: wait?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Yes. Then --
Next event, he is going down the tube?
That is correct, sir.
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SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: escalators? A.
Did you infer going down the
Down the escalators, that is right, sir, yes. Third is "state red"?
Trojan control "state red". And then finally Trojan control asking
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: where he is? A.
That's correct, sir, yes. You have already told us that you never saw
MR HILLIARD:
Mr de Menezes, and I think after this you in fact went to a location about 200 metres away from the tube and stayed in your van; is that right? A. Q. A. That's correct, sir. I took up --
I say "your van", whatever it was -I took up a supporting role some 200 metres away from -south in Clapham Road, away from the tube.
Q.
Did you ever hear any instruction to SO12 to make a stop or not make a stop?
A. Q.
No, sir. Did you ever hear any positive identification of the man who was being followed as being Nettle Tip?
A. Q.
No, sir. Did you ever hear, as it were, putting that in reverse, any positive discounting of the man as being Nettle Tip?
A.
No, sir.
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Q.
As far as you were concerned, as you understood it, what was the status of the man? Do you follow the question?
A.
Yes, sir.
As far as I was concerned as I stated in the
Health and Safety trial, he was unidentified from the moment he left the building -- Scotia Road, sorry -- to the tube, Stockwell tube. That was my job, was to try
to obtain some imagery to either disprove or prove his identity. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: So you were particularly interested in
what people were saying about him? A. No, not particularly. a position, sir. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. To get pictures. I was trying to get in
To get pictures, sir, yes. But nevertheless identification was one
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
of your primary considerations? A. That is correct, sir, yes. And everybody as far as you were
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
concerned was saying, "We don't know, he's unidentified"? A. That's correct, sir, yes. I just want to know, for example, at the tube
MR HILLIARD:
station, Brixton tube, where you didn't manage to get any pictures, would you have indicated that over the radio system, that you hadn't managed, or would you
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only, as it were, communicate if you managed to get a picture? I would have only communicated to James over the radio, sir, if I had managed to get some imagery. Right. So the fact that you are saying nothing is
an indication that you had got nothing? That's correct, sir, yes. Right. Thank you very much. Mr Mansfield.
MR HILLIARD:
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Questions from MR MANSFIELD MR MANSFIELD: Good morning. My name is Michael Mansfield. Just
I represent the family of Jean Charles de Menezes. one issue, really. Good morning, sir. Had you got into a position, which I appreciate you
didn't, to obtain images of this unidentified person, what was going to happen to the images? In other words,
were they going to be saved and dealt with later, or how was this going to work? Sir, I was -- I had the facility within my van to transmit those images back to the operations room. Right. I was going to ask you about that, subject So there was the facility
obviously to sensitivity.
even then to obtain images which could be transmitted so that somebody else could then actually take a look at
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the image of the person as he appeared that day? That's correct, sir, yes. Compared to the descriptions being given. Now, again
I do not want to know exactly how it's done, but that presumably is done electronically pretty quickly once you have an image? It can take me up to about five minutes to do that, sir. Five minutes? Yes. Can you use the camera when you are
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: transmitting?
I have a variety of cameras, sir, so I could move on to a second camera.
MR MANSFIELD:
So in a nutshell, what was the problem about Is it just --
you getting an image that day?
The way I saw it, sir, is there were three options in hindsight. Now, looking back at it, there were three
options for me to get an image. There was an option right at the beginning when he first came out; I wasn't able to do that because I wasn't quick enough and due to the traffic at that time of the morning I wasn't able to get a position to obtain a photograph. There was the option at Brixton tube station, where again due to the traffic and the conditions I didn't see
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where he went and I wasn't able to get an image there. Then there was the option at Stockwell tube, but I had dropped Ivor off and I had turned left, and again it was across the road and due to the prevailing conditions it was just impossible to get anything. All right. Okay, sir. Go back to the beginning. Yes, sir. You said you were south of Christchurch Road. Who was Leave aside the last two options.
really determining -- may I put it this way: did you know where the address was in relation to where you were? Looking on the map, sir, having had the briefing, I knew where the road was. I didn't exactly know where --
because I hadn't been down there, I didn't know where the block was or the house was or whatever it was. I didn't know where number 21 was, sir, because I hadn't been down there. No, all right. But the question I have been asking
other witnesses is about this initial period of time, because obviously it's -- did you recognise how important it was at the beginning to try to get an image because the window of opportunity, if this really was to be Osman, was actually very limited? Do you recognise
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that? I recognised it, yes, but at the same time there was already a van in position with capability of taking video imagery. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. I know that couldn't be transmitted -But not apparently transmitting. We still
No, that is not and still can't be done, sir. haven't got the capability of doing that now.
Sorry, I thought you could.
Not from the surveillance teams, not -- the surveillance teams themselves had handy-cams, little hand-held cams, and they do not have the facility to transmit that imagery back to an ops room.
Is that what Frank was using?
Yes, that's correct, sir, yes. What did you have?
I had stills imagery, I had a stills camera, sir. Which you could transmit?
Which I can, yes, but that involves a laptop and sending imagery over a GSM encrypted line.
MR MANSFIELD:
I'm concentrating on that facility for the
moment because it's an important facility and if it's going to be used where there is a problem about identification, do you follow me, you have really got to be in a very accessible position, do you follow, before the target, person, gets anywhere near a bus stop?
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A.
Yes, but I didn't know he was going towards a bus stop, sir.
Q. A.
No, I appreciate that, but -I was in a position, sir. address. I was in the area of the
Q.
But had you worked out how long it was going to take you, because you obviously didn't get there in time, to get from Christchurch Road to -- well, not to Scotia Road, because you are not going to drive up there, but to the vicinity of Scotia Road, particularly Upper Tulse Hill?
A.
No, I hadn't worked it out, sir.
I thought I was in
a position near enough to get around, to determine which way whoever came out of the address would go. Q. I have been through it with other witnesses and I do not want to take up a lot of time, but the window of opportunity one way, the minimum was four to five minutes if he turned left and went up towards Tulse Hill -- do you follow me? -- and the other way could be longer. So you would have to work out, if you are going to make sense of your being there, you would have had to have been within three minutes; in other words what I am really suggesting is you should have been somewhere very near Upper Tulse Hill, if not in Tulse Hill?
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A. Q.
Not necessarily, sir. I don't say necessarily, but you have to be within reach, otherwise it's a complete waste of an opportunity; do you follow? I'm not blaming you
particularly but who's in charge? A. Q. A. Q. It was the team leaders on the day, sir. The team leaders? I take my instruction from the team leaders. Did they say: look, stick yourself in Christchurch Road or somewhere near? A. No, they leave that to me. devices, sir. Q. We have heard quite a lot has been left to one's own devices. Did you appreciate that there was a Silver They leave that to my own
that had by the time you got there been appointed as a location Silver; did you know that? A. Q. A. Q. No, sir. You didn't know that? No, sir. Because the location Silver really should have a handle on all this, shouldn't he? A. Q. I can't answer that, sir. I think you can if you think about it. We rather glided over what you were
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
putting a moment ago, Mr Mansfield.
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MR MANSFIELD:
I will go back to it, if I may. I am sure you will.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
What's really being suggested to you is you took up a position which actually you didn't give yourself of getting a decent shot of Mr de Menezes when he left Scotia Road and made his way up to and along Upper Tulse Hill. A. That is what it comes to.
Sir, if he had turned right out of the road, at the end of Scotia, he would have been coming towards me.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Indeed, sir.
In fact he turned away from you.
So I could have put myself in any position
around that plot and he could have gone the other way, and I have done many times now where I have put myself in a position and the subject that we have been following has gone the other way. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR MANSFIELD: A. Q. A. Q. Yes.
You are in a van?
That's correct, sir. If you are in Roupell Road -- you know Roupell Road? That's the one at the top, isn't it. You can look on the diagram you have there. have in front of you. The one you
It's map 7 of the maps brochure.
A. Q.
Yes. I am afraid it isn't actually named. If you go to --
you see where it says "Bus route from these stops, route
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201"? Yes, sir. That block, it's the road underneath there. That one there, sir, yes. We know someone else has parked in that road, but if in fact you had been parked in that road and you had heard that he had left the block, you could have been out on foot if necessary, but that may have exposed you too much; you could have been around the corner in your van pretty quickly, couldn't you? I could have done, sir, yes. Do you appreciate what I am putting? You would be
within -- by the time he had walked from the block in which 21 was, you could have been in Tulse Hill itself ready for him to turn either left or right, couldn't you? That's correct, sir, but as I understood it at that time the red team had that plot and didn't want any of the grey team or anyone else to come into that area. That's another issue. All right.
So that's why I stayed away, sir. You told us you were south of
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Christchurch Road? That is correct, sir, yes. So actually off this map altogether?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
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A.
That is, yes, sir. If I remember rightly,
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Christchurch Road is the South Circular Road, isn't it? A. The route I took to go round to -- I came down the South Circular road and then back up into the one-way system and then back into Tulse Hill, I think. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: of the hill? A. It's just off -- without a map. We have all been there, so ... That's the one-way system up at the top
Right, so I turned right on to Christchurch, came south --
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
But you had Christchurch Road between
you and Scotia Road? A. That's correct, sir, yes. Christchurch Road, if I'm thinking of
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
the right road, it is a heavily trafficked road, isn't it? A. It is, sir, yes. Final question, if I may, and I do not want
MR MANSFIELD:
to trespass on sensitivity again, but this is really for the future: has the technology improved since then, so it's easier to take covert photographs and transmit? A. The technology in terms of transmitting the imagery hasn't changed. We still use the same technology, sir.
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What has changed is the fact that we can now transmit images -- once it's sent to the ops room, we can now transmit images back out to the teams. Right. So they are going to be having hardware which
can receive those images? That's correct, sir. Thank you very much. Thank you. Mr Stern?
MR MANSFIELD:
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR STERN:
No, thank you. Ms Leek?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MS LEEK: MR PERRY:
No, thank you. No, thank you. Thank you Mr Perry. Mr King?
No, thank you. Mr Horwell?
No, thank you. Mr Gibbs.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Questions from MR GIBBS MR GIBBS: Tim. Yes, sir. We know from other officers that the observation van within a surveillance team will usually, during the follow, remain towards the rear of the follow in case it needs to go into a static observation position halfway Could I just clarify a couple of things, please,
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through the follow? Absolutely, sir, yes. What generally is the position during a follow of any photographic van like yourself which is attached to the team? I would stay probably behind the observation van, sir. I wouldn't want to expose my van to unwanted scrutiny. Quite. You have been given some advice about where you
might have positioned yourself on this particular day. Are you quite an experienced surveillance photographer? I am, sir; well, I am an experienced surveillance officer, sir. years now. It may be very good advice, but perhaps you could just explain why it was that you chose to be where it was that you chose to be on the day? Basically one, as mentioned, the fact that the red team had told the grey team in effect not to go near to the plot, to stay off the plot, so I positioned myself in an area which I thought would give me enough time to get around -- as it happened it didn't give me enough time -- but I would get around to take photographs of -SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Bearing in mind that there was another I have done it two months short of ten
van there already. That's correct, sir, yes. The OP van was already
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in situ and I didn't want to -SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. The red team van? I did not want to ...
That's correct, sir, yes.
MR GIBBS:
Could I just ask you to deal with some telephone
calls that we have on a schedule which is at tab 60 in our bundle. It's a multicoloured document.
If I can take you to 09:47 on the right-hand side, do you see at 09:47:44 there is a very short call, it appears, from Trojan 84 to you? That's correct, sir. Then another one in the next minute at 09:48 which is slightly longer? Yes, sir. Then if we go on to 09:56:13, which is on the second page, do you see another call from Trojan 84 to you, and that's about 12 seconds long? Yes, sir. Do you remember receiving any telephone calls that day during the follow? During the follow, sir, I remember receiving two phone calls, and that was in the vicinity of Brixton tube station. One was from an officer from SO13, identified The other was from an officer I didn't get a name.
himself as from SO13.
identifying himself from SO19.
What they were asking for was whether I was James and
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whether I had James's phone number. MR GIBBS: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Gibbs. Mr Hilliard?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Nothing. MR HILLIARD:
Thank you very much. Tim, thank you very much indeed. You
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: are free to go.
(The witness withdrew) MR HOUGH: Sir, the next witness is Lawrence. Thank you.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
CODENAME "LAWRENCE" (sworn) SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Thank you, sir. Questions from MR HOUGH MR HOUGH: I think you have been given the name Lawrence Thank you. Please sit down.
both for the Health and Safety trial and for this inquest? That's correct, sir, yes. Is this right: in 2005 you were a police officer attached to SO12 and a specialist surveillance officer? Yes, I was, yes. You were on 22 July 2005 a member of the grey surveillance team? Yes. When we are looking at documents, your call sign ended
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37? That's correct, yes. And you have also been known as Hotel 8? Hotel, yes. I think you were also an authorised firearms officer, so not somebody in CO19 but trained and approved to use firearms in your duty? Yes, that's correct, yes. But not trained obviously to the same level as specialist firearms officers? No, no, just basic firearms officer. I think you made a number of witness statements in the aftermath of these events, the first one on the day after? Yes, that's right. Do you have a copy of that with you? I have indeed, yes. If you get it out now, you may find it helpful to look at it from time to time and there is no problem about that. Thank you. While you are getting that out, I think you gave evidence at the Health and Safety trial spanning two days, 9 to 10 October last year? That's right, yes.
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Q.
Moving to 22 July, we have heard about your team being summoned by pager message to Tintagel House and then being called to attend a briefing at New Scotland Yard?
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes, that's correct. Were you summoned by that means as well? I was indeed, yes. Then there was a briefing with Mr Whiddett and an officer we are calling Colin?
A. Q.
Yes. In that briefing you were told of the suspects Osman and Omar and another man?
A. Q.
Yes, that's right. You were told of a number of addresses but not told at that stage which one you would be covering?
A. Q.
That's correct, yes. You were shown a pack of photographs, I think. If we
can show one up on the screen, tab 37 of the jury bundle. you saw? A. Q. Yes, I do, yes. Because you were one of the people who saw Mr de Menezes, I'll ask you this: what kind of quality did you regard that image as being? A. Q. I would say it's fairly poor quality. Did you take a copy of this sheet with this image with Do you recognise this as one of the documents
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you on your deployment? I didn't, no. But you had the opportunity to do so, I think? I don't think there was enough to go around. Were you told anything about the strategy and what your team would be doing around the premises that day? My understanding was that we would go to the address and take away any possible suspects from that address and follow them, obviously we would identify them. Did any member of your team ask for clarification about what you would be doing? Yes, indeed. At the end of the briefing Harry, I think
his name is, asked DI Whiddett what we would do if someone came out, I think it was, and DI Whiddett said something like "contain" or "containment", and then Harry asked him what he meant by that and DI Whiddett shrugged his shoulders and said "contain", or words to that effect. After the briefing, I think that firearms were distributed and I think you were armed with a Glock pistol that day? That's correct, yes. Just to help us, where did you put that sidearm? It was attached to my belt. But obviously underneath some clothes?
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A. Q.
Absolutely.
Concealed, of course.
Sorry, concealed.
We have heard again from others how your team went to a holding area and then were told to go to Scotia Road and deployed there, and other members of the team have said that they arrived shortly before 9 o'clock. that around the time you arrived? Was
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes, I came with the team. I think you drove there in a car on your own? That's correct, yes. Can we just locate where you were: tab 11 of the jury bundle, 23A, please. If we look at a road north of
Upper Tulse Hill, if we see Upper Tulse Hill and then just move immediately directly north, can you see the words "Elm Park"? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. A road running to the east off Brixton Hill? Yes. Does that help you to locate where you were? Yes, it does. Where were you? Initially when I arrived on plot -- sorry, in the area -- I parked at Elm Park initially. Q. You say initially; did you go anywhere else between that point and when you joined the follow? A. Yes, I then parked in Brixton Hill in between
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Morrish Road and Park Road, sir, which is on -- east of Brixton Hill. Can you help by locating that on this map? If you see where Christchurch is, the road Christchurch, you go north up Brixton Hill, just on the left-hand side you see Morrish Road. Yes. You see Morrish Road just being highlighted there. Sorry, where did you start from? Further north. The one further north, actually
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Elm Park, sir.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
opposite the prison? Yes, sir. Those have been helpfully highlighted by Tom.
MR HOUGH:
Between 9 o'clock when you arrived and 9.30, when you were in those two places, were you listening to the traffic on the Cougar? I was indeed, yes, sir. Did you hear anything about support from CO19? I believe I was informed that CO19, I believe, were to arrive in the area and pitch up at the TA Centre, which is nearby. Did you hear anything over the radio about bus routes? Yes, I believe Derek had informed us that he had requested that bus routes be cancelled in that area, but not whether he came back with the result whether they
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were or not. So you didn't know whether they had been? I didn't, no. Thirdly this: was anything said over the radio about what your team would do if somebody came out of the premises who seemed to be one of the suspects? If I recall correctly, and unfortunately it's faded after all this time, but I believe Derek, supported by James over the radio, suggested that if someone came out of the address who was a suspect, who posed a threat, maybe had a rucksack or something like that -- I think it was mentioned, I'm not too sure -- as firearms officers we would just make the stop, both the red team and the grey team. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: You are speaking quite quickly. Can we
have that answer again? Yes, indeed, sir. Derek I think over the radio, supported by Lawrence -- supported by James, said if anyone came out of that address who was a suspect, and I think possibly mentioned the rucksack, I think he mentioned a rucksack, we would stop him ourselves before he boarded a bus. MR HOUGH: Moving on to after 9.30, we know that
Mr de Menezes came out of the block just after 9.30. Did you hear his coming out being described over the
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radio? Yes, I was aware he did come out, yes. What did you hear over the first five or ten minutes or so about his description and identification? I can't fully give a recollection of what was said other than the suspect came out of the address. Initially it
was -- he was almost dismissed, but it came round from I think it was Harry said it's worth another look and then we took him from that area. Is Harry a member of your team? No, he is -- not Harry, sorry. Do you mean Frank? Frank, sorry. The man in the van? The man in the van, yes. Did you then drive off to join the follow? I did indeed, yes. Did you drive up towards Brixton Road? I did indeed, yes. Going north. Can we have tab 11, page 23B on the You see there the route of the bus
screen, please.
marked in red, and I think you found yourself driving north a little behind the bus on Brixton Road? That's correct, yes. Is this right: you arrived there sometime around 9.47?
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A. Q.
Yes. At that stage, as you were driving up towards Brixton Road, had you been aware that one of your colleagues, Ivor, was on the bus with the subject?
A. Q.
Yes, indeed, yes. By that stage, so before you are getting to Brixton Road, had you heard anything to the effect that the subject was or was not one of your suspects?
A. Q.
He wasn't confirmed or denied at that stage, no. We have heard from Ivor that he communicated that the subject had distinctive Mongolian eyes.
A. Q. A. Q.
That's right, yes. Is that something that you you heard relayed? Yes. As you were driving up Brixton Road to the north, did you in fact see the subject of your surveillance, whom we now know to be Mr de Menezes?
A. Q. A.
I did, yes. Where was he when you saw him? He had stepped off. Brixton Road. He was on the footpath on
He had deployed -- got off the bus and He was followed by Ivor.
walking north on Brixton Road. Q. A. Q.
So when you saw him he had already got off the bus? Yes. He was on the left-hand pavement?
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A. Q. A. Q.
Yes. Walking north, followed by Ivor? Yes. Were there other people around him or between you and him?
A.
There were other people on the footpath but nobody was in between me and him as such.
Q. A. Q.
Did you drive past him and get a view of him? I did indeed, yes. What kind of view of him did you have in terms of the angle of his head and face?
A.
Initially -- the traffic is quite slow on that road at that time of day, so I drove past him quite slowly. I initially had a side view of him. As I drove past him
I looked behind my shoulder; I had a full-frontal view of him for a split second. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Seeing him on the footpath at Brixton
when he got off the bus, was that the first chance you had actually to see him? A. It was, sir, yes. So initially a side profile, then as you drive
MR HOUGH:
past look over your shoulder and catch a full-frontal view, but only for a split second? A. Q. Yes that's correct. In those two views what did you notice about his dress,
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appearance and features? He was dressed in denim jacket, denim jeans, nothing particularly different about his appearance which wasn't given over the radio or the commentary from Ivor. I concur with the description given by Ivor. So you say you concurred with the description given by Ivor; which part of the description did you particularly concur with? The description Ivor gave about Mongolian eyes. I thought Mr de Menezes had distinctive eyes which could be described as Mongolian. What does that phrase mean to you? To me it was -- probably the best way to describe it would be almond-shaped eyes, not so much Chinese but certainly shaped more almond rather than caucasian. Did you notice anything or did anything strike you about the man's demeanour or movements? No. At that time, when you were driving past, did you broadcast anything about the description of the man you had seen? No, I didn't. You said you saw Ivor also and that he was behind the subject? That's correct, yes.
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Q.
After you have seen them and driven past obviously, you don't know what the subject is going to do; you don't know he is going to get back on the same bus?
A. Q. A.
No, absolutely not. What did you decide to do? I decided to get on -- dump my car and get on the footpath to assist Ivor in the foot follow.
Q.
So you decided to drop off your car and get out and attempt to follow wherever the subject was going?
A. Q.
Yes. Again, can we have tab 11/23B up on screen. Can you
help us with roughly where you parked your car? A. I think -- I don't think I have written it in my statement, but I think it's on the left-hand side, off Brixton Road, possibly Dale Road, which is just north of Nursery Road. Q. A. Q. Where we see the sports centre? Yes, indeed, yes. I wonder if that can be highlighted. Yes, around there.
So you actually got off Brixton Road?
I did, sir, yes, and parked on a side road. I dare say parking on Brixton Road
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
wouldn't have been very easy. A. Not at all, sir, no. Did you then get out of the car and walk back to
MR HOUGH:
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where you had seen the subject? That direction, yes. Did you see anything of him when you had got to that point? No, I didn't, no. Had you become aware from radio transmissions what had happened to him? Yeah, I was made aware he was heading back and got on the bus. By the time that you had got back to where you had seen him, had he actually got on the bus according to those transmissions? Yes. Shortly after that were you seen and picked up by James, your team leader, in his car? Yes, indeed, yes. Was that in fact on Brixton Road? No, it was round the corner. Stockwell Road. So just where we see Brixton Road turning left into Stockwell Road? Yes, indeed, yes. At the time that he picked you up, I think Ken was in his passenger seat acting as his loggist? That's right, yes. I think it was
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Q. A.
As he picked you up, what was James doing? I believe he was speaking either into his mobile phone or on to the radio.
Q. A.
So you can't say which? I couldn't say for definite, but he was speaking, talking to somebody, remarking that he thought he was a good possible.
Q. A.
Pausing there, what was Ken doing? He was in the front. back to me. I couldn't see because he had his
Q.
You said that James was speaking either on phone or on mobile to somebody; did you know who the somebody was either immediately or afterwards?
A. Q.
For definite no, but I thought it was the ops room. You said that you heard James saying that he was a good possible; anything more than that?
A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
At that time, no. Good possible for anyone in particular? I assumed it was for Nettle Tip. How did you respond to these words of James? I said, "I don't think it was him". Did you say that while he was communicating with what you thought was the operations room or after he had finished?
A.
It was actually after he had finished talking to them.
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SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Were those near enough your actual
words, "I don't think it's him"? A. The actual words were, "I don't think it's him". Can we have on screen your statement, page 264 of It's right at the top of the
MR HOUGH:
the statements bundle. page:
"Shortly afterwards I was in the company of James and Ken. I informed James that on the view I had of
this male I did not believe he was identical with Nettle Tip." A. Q. Yes. Is this right you said that in a statement you wrote on the day after these events? A. Yes. I am just looking, just reading this here. (Pause)
Yes, I said I didn't believe it was him, yes. Q. Thanks very much. If we can have that off screen now.
We will see in a moment why it's significant to note that you wrote that on the day afterwards. When you had said those words to James, how did he react or what did he do? A. He showed me the picture which we got from the briefing, which was on previously. Q. A. The one we saw earlier? Yes. He used his hand, he covered the bearded area of
that subject's face and said it was a good likeness or
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something like that, or a good possible, words to that effect. Did that persuade you? No. What did you say? I mean, I said nothing afterwards. I mean, I couldn't
be adamant that it was definitely not the subject we were looking for, but I didn't change my opinion at all. Anything else said between you and Ken, of course, who was also involved, and James about identification over that journey in the car? No. Anything else communicated by James or Ken in your hearing to the operations room about identification at this stage? No. While you were in the car, was anything said to say to the operations room, anything beyond "good possible"? No. You said you didn't change your
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
opinion; did you tell James that? I didn't, no. You just --
I gave my opinion that I didn't think it was him and then left it at that, sir.
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SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HOUGH:
Left it at that, yes.
Perhaps we can have documents page 465 on screen. We
This is one of the supplementary entries in the log. don't need to go to the original entry but this is something you wrote during the debriefing of the log? A. Q. That's correct, yes. Just to remind ourselves, that debriefing of the log
took place between 8.40 pm and 10.30 pm on the night of 22 July? A. Q. That's correct, yes. Can we just run through this: "Reference the discussion I had with James relating to the identity of NT ..." Pausing there, you are using "NT", Nettle Tip, just to refer to the subject, whoever he might be? A. Q. Yes. "... I saw the male who is referred to at NT ..." Perhaps "as NT": "... on the Brixton Road after he had left the number 2 bus (refer 9.47 am)." We have seen that entry: "I saw a side view of his face as I slowly drove past him whilst he walked along the nearside footpath. Looking back, I had a split-second view of his face and~..."
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The word is "and" there immediately after "face": "... I believed it was not NT [or Nettle Tip]. I told James shortly afterwards ..." Can you interpret the next words? "... whilst I was in the vehicle ..." "... whilst I was in his vehicle, as referred as above." There is your call sign next to that and your initials at the top and bottom? That's correct, yes. Can we go back to the previous page, please. I think
you have been told already that there has been some scientific testing of this page, this document? That's right. I think you are aware that that scientific testing has shown that the word "not" before "NT" was added after the rest of the entry? That's right, yes. I think the word "and" has also been shown to have been added after the word "face"? Correct, yes. That allegation I think was put to you some months after these events. Can you remember how you reacted when the
allegation was first put to you? Disbelief, to be honest with you. I was being accused
of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and
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couldn't think of anything further from the truth, really. I thought it was a ridiculous allegation
initially. Did you then provide a formal response to caution on this point? Yes, I did, yes. Perhaps we can have that on screen. the documents. It's page 1502 of
This is signed by you, Hotel 8, and it
reads -- I don't think we need the first paragraph, but the second paragraph just below what we have on screen at the moment: "After the entries of Hotel 5 and Hotel 6, I contributed to that supplement. My entry commences at
page 11, line 5, and continues on to line 1 of page 12." That's the section we have just read out? Yes, that's correct, yes. "This is my handwriting. I read it through. After I completed the entry
I have no recollection of amending
the entry but understand it is alleged that the words 'and' and 'not' were not written contemporaneously with the rest of the entry. The only time I could have added
those words was when I read the entry through, realised the error and added them, as the log was never in my possession again from the time I finished the entry other than to sign it at 10.30 pm on page 15."
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A. Q.
That's correct, yes. "I have no recollection of anyone bringing the error to my attention when the log was read out by Hotel 5 when the debrief was concluded. I can only conclude
I spotted the error when I read it through to myself after writing my entry and amended it then to read correctly." A. Q. That's correct, yes. Is this right: in that response to caution document dated 1 December 2005 you were saying that you had no recollection of amending the entry? A. Q. That's correct, yes. That if you did amend it, it must have happened before 10.30 pm that night because you didn't have the log with you at any point thereafter? A. Q. That's right, yes. You were also saying that if you did make that amendment, it wasn't made right at the end when the team leader read out the log; it must have been made by you at a stage before that when you were making your entries? A. Yes. When you were actually doing the
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: writing? A.
I believe so, yes.
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MR HOUGH:
Is this right: none of your colleagues has said
that they might have made any alteration to that? A. Q. A. Q. No, definitely not. They have all denied that? Yes. At the trial you mentioned that you answered the questions put to you to the effect that it could have been you who altered it, subject to what you have just told us? A. It was me that altered it, there is no doubt. handwriting. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. So it was you definitely? It was my It is my
Definitely, there is no question about that. handwriting.
MR HOUGH:
In terms of your training about writing up logs,
are you given any instructions about what you should do if you notice something that needs changing and you have to make an alteration? A. Yes, we are given instructions and I didn't comply with those that night. Q. A. What are those instructions? For me to make an amendment like that I should have initialled it or put 8 where I was going to add the word and put the word "not" afterwards. I didn't correct or
amend the log properly unfortunately.
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Q.
Is this right: that you should do that even if you are making the amendment five minutes later?
A.
Yes, you should have done. up that.
I have unfortunately messed
Q.
So you accept that you made a mistake but you say, is this right, that there is nothing sinister to it, you haven't been trying to cover up anything?
A.
No, I have made a mistake unfortunately but there is definitely no cover-up.
Q.
Can we move on in the sequence of events.
This relates Did
to the time you were in the car with James and Ken.
you remain in the car as it drove north up Brixton Road and then Stockwell Road? A. Q. Yes, I did. We have heard from James that he drove north with a view to dropping you off ahead of the bus so that you could get off at a stop, wait for the bus and get on the bus. A. Q. A. Q. A. That's correct, yes. Is that in fact what you did? I did indeed, yes. Did you get off a stop some way up the road? Yes, it was probably towards the end of that road I got on to that bus. Q. Perhaps we can have tab 11 of the jury bundle, first of all 23B, just to see what recollection you have.
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We see where the road turns from Brixton Road left to Stockwell Road and then up the road. Do you think
you got on at any bus stop which might be shown on this map or shall we go north? I think it's further north. Can we have 23C, please. roughly where you -I think roughly it was around Irvine Gardens on the left-hand side of Stockwell. Stockwell tube stop. Perhaps that can be highlighted so everyone sees it. Thank you. Once you got on the bus, is this right, you scanned the lower level of the bus with a view to seeing if your subject was there? That's correct, yes. Did you see him there? No, I didn't. Perhaps we can have a short clip of film shown, it's PJJ/1, camera 1, CH14. (Video footage shown) This shows you getting on the bus around 9.56, 9.57. Okay, yes, that's me. Did you then go up the stairs with a view to look for your subject? It was the one stop before Does this help you to locate
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A. Q. A. Q. A.
Yes, I did. Did you see him once you got on to the top deck? I did indeed, yes. Where was he sitting? He was about four rows behind the banister of the stairs on the right-hand side of the bus.
Q.
On the right-hand side of the bus as the driver is looking at it?
A. Q.
As the driver looks at it. As you came up the stairs, and turned towards the back of the bus, it was on the left?
A. Q.
On the left, yes. Perhaps we can have another short bit of film. PJJ/1, camera 8, CH13. back, actually. That's fine. (Video footage shown) If we play that again. It's very quick. It's
I think we might have to go
I am not sure this is the right one.
Does that show where he was? A. Q. It does, yes, indeed, sir. We have seen from that that the top deck of the bus looked quite busy; was it quite busy when you got on? A. Q. A. It was, yes. Where did you sit down? I sat about throw rows behind him on the opposite side
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of the bus. Were there any heads or people between you and him as you were looking towards him? Not on the aisle. I had a clear view of his head so
I knew where he was. I think you were on the bus with him after that for about -SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: He was on the offside of the bus, you
were on the nearside? That's correct, sir, yes. I think you were on the bus together for about
MR HOUGH:
three or four minutes? Roughly, sir, yes. Over that time, your view of him if he was looking forward would have been towards the back of his head? Yes, indeed. Did he at any stage turn his head round so you could see him more clearly? No. What was he doing as far as you could tell? He was just sat on the bus like any other passenger. Over that time, did you communicate with the rest of your team at all? I did, yes. How did you do that?
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A. Q. A.
Initially -Without giving anything away. Initially Harry phoned me, in fact, on my mobile and I spoke to Harry.
Q.
We have a call on our various telephone schedules, Harry calling you at 9.59 for a period of 12 seconds. that be the right call? Would
A. Q. A. Q. A.
That would be the right call, yes. So a very short call? Yes. What was said in the course of that call? It was very much that Mr de Menezes was on the top of the bus and as I spoke to Harry on the phone Mr de Menezes got off his seat and went towards the stairs and I relayed that to Harry as well, relaying over the radio.
Q. A. Q.
Was the bus moving at this point? It was, yes, slowly. So just moving up towards the stop near Stockwell tube station?
A. Q. A. Q.
Indeed, yes. Did Harry then relay that over the Cougar radio? Yes, he did, yes. Did Mr de Menezes go straight down to the bottom deck or was he held up on the stairs?
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A. Q. A.
He was actually held on the stairs. For how long? 10, 15 seconds; that's a guess. of time, but significant. It was a short period
Q.
We have seen where the bus stops at a stop on the South Lambeth Road just beyond the tube station. Mr de Menezes get off the bus? Did
A. Q. A. Q.
He did indeed, yes. Did you get off the bus after him? Yes. Not straight after him.
Did you, over this period while you are coming down the stairs, getting off the bus, starting along the pavement, receive any transmissions from the rest of your team?
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes, Ken had picked up Mr de Menezes on the footpath. Where were you when you got that transmission? I was on the bus. So after getting off the bus, is this right, you would have turned left?
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes. Walking towards the tube station? Yes. Did you have sight of him as you got off the bus and started moving?
A.
I didn't, no.
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Q. A. Q.
So you had lost sight of him in that brief period? Yes. Perhaps we can have another bit of film, TS/1, camera 6, CH19. Perhaps we can just watch this through. This
will give us an idea of where you were positioned and Ken was positioned relative to Mr de Menezes as he is walking. (Video footage shown) We see him pass. Bus stop to the left of the That's how far Ken
picture, tube station to the right. is behind him. (Pause) the two of them? A. Q. Yes. Thanks very much.
This is how far you are behind
This is all real time, isn't it?
This is all real time. One second lapses between the stills,
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: or do they vary? MS STUDD: MR HOUGH:
Two seconds. I am assisted. They are different cameras,
obviously. You are then seen walking towards the station. you enter the station? A. Q. I did indeed, yes. Over that period of time did you get any more traffic Did
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over the Cougar about what was happening up ahead? As far as I was aware, Mr de Menezes had gone down to the tube on to the platform. Before that, we have heard that there was an offer from James issued to the control room to detain the suspect, not personally but his team. radio? Yes, indeed I did, yes. Where were you when you heard that? I think I would have probably got off the bus by that stage and made my way towards the tube. We have seen Ken ahead of you. We know that Ivor was Did you hear that over the
still further ahead, actually in the tube station concourse at this point. by sight? Were you aware of Ken and Ivor
I know you have heard about Ken, but could
you see either of them as you -To be honest, no. Again, can we have another bit of film, CC/3, camera 6. This will give us an idea of where you are in the sequence of people. (Video footage shown) We are very familiar with this now. entering, going to pick up his newspaper. the edge. (Pause) Mr de Menezes Ivor around
Ivor passing behind the pillar, then Ken. Ivor and Ken through the barriers behind
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Mr de Menezes. (Pause)
Pause there, please.
So these are the relative positions of you ahead and Malcolm behind? Yes. At that point were you aware of Malcolm being behind you? No. Thanks very much. We can have that off screen now.
I think, is this right, you then went straight ahead, through the barriers and down the escalators? Yes. At any stage over this period, as you are off the bus towards the tube station, then into the tube station, were you aware of CO19 officers on their way? No. Did you at any stage hear a transmission from CO19 over the Cougar? No. Didn't hear "state red"? No. Did you have good Cougar reception as you were walking towards and through the concourse? Whilst on the top level of the tube, yes. We have got you going down the escalators. tab 31 of the jury bundle on screen, please. Can we have This is
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a picture we have seen before.
As one comes down the
escalators and towards the platforms, this is what you see on your left. Which platform did you go towards and why? As I come down here, down the steps, I think Malcolm is ahead of me at this stage. He takes a left. I follow
him left as well on to the -- you can see the picture there, towards the train. So Malcolm has got ahead of you and you have recognised him at that point? Yes. He turns to the left and you follow. We have heard that
there was a train held at the platform? That's correct, yes, sir. What did Malcolm do ahead of you? He walked onto the carriage ahead of him, directly ahead of him. So these are the doors we can see -Yes. -- immediately through there. He said he didn't Can you
actually get into the train but just looked in. recall which it was?
I saw him walking towards and I thought he stepped on to it, but I can't give 100 per cent certainty to that. I turned the other way.
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Q. A. Q.
Where did you go? I turned left at that stage. So you turned left, and did you get onto to the train at any point?
A. Q. A. Q. A.
I did indeed, yes. Which doors did you get into? It was the carriage next to this carriage here. So not just the next doors but the next whole carriage? Yes. Sorry, going which way?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Left, sir.
Left along the platform?
Left on the platform, yes, sir. Once you had got in there, did you look for the
MR HOUGH:
subject to see if you could locate him? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes, indeed, yes. Did you see him there? No, he wasn't in my carriage. What did you do then? I walked along the carriage and sat down facing the platform. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: You were actually, as we know now,
going away from him? A. Yes. Because you had gone left instead of
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
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right? Yes. Did the train then hold at the platform for
MR HOUGH:
a short time? It did indeed, sir, yes. You had been sitting down. platform. The train was held at the
Did you stay sitting down? It seemed like an eternity but it
No, I didn't, sir.
was about ten seconds I think that the doors hadn't closed, there was no beeping of the doors closing, so I got up to see what the problem was as such. Did you walk to the doors themselves? I walked to the doors and looked along the platform. What could you see? At that stage I saw about four to six men run on to the platform, who were from SO19. You say "from SO19"; how did you recognise them as from SO19? One had a police cap on, a police firearms cap on, but one, more importantly, had a long-barrelled weapon. I couldn't tell you what kind of weapon it was, but ... Where did they go? On to the carriage where I thought Malcolm was, the carriage next to me. So the carriage, as we are looking at this photograph,
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further to the right? Yes. Down the platform. you could see? Yes. Could you hear anything as they were either running on to the platform or entering the train? I believe I heard a shout but I couldn't tell you what was shouted or what was said or who said it. It was Did they enter the train as far as
a noise; I believe it was a shout of some sort. You have said in your statement, and I won't get it up, that it wasn't clear to you who was shouting or what was being said. That's correct, sir. As far as you are concerned it could have been the firearms officers? Could have been, yes. But it could have been civilians? Yes. Or it could have been one of your colleagues? Yes. We have heard about one of his shouts. Can I just ask you this. Sorry,
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Mr Hough.
Until you saw the CO19 officers -- I mean you
obviously recognised them when you saw them as CO19
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officers. Firearms officers, yes, sir. Up to that point, what did you think
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
was going on; just a continuation of the follow? Yes, as far as I was concerned, sir, we were just going to continue on the tube to the next stop, until Mr de Menezes got off and -SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. This was just the follow continuing?
It was just a conventional follow. Just following that up, why had you got on the
MR HOUGH:
train and sat down; what was your purpose? To follow, with the rest of the team, follow Mr de Menezes off. So to stay on the train and then to be able to assist in any follow from there? That's correct, yes, sir. After you had seen these people enter the train, the firearms officers, and you had heard a shout, did you hear anything more? Yes, I mean, shortly after the shout I heard the shots being fired out. How long after the shout? It was almost immediately afterwards. One of your colleagues was asked this, so I'll ask it of you: can you be sure that the shout took place before
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the shots or could it in fact have taken place afterwards? As far as I recall it was before, but I couldn't give a 110 per cent answer. My recollection, it was before.
Did you see anything from the direction the shots were being fired? Passengers screaming and running away from the area. Did you then get out on to the platform? No, I stood initially on my train, I took out my Glock and sat on the train -- I stood on the train looking down that platform to see what was coming. You had got out your firearm? Yes. And you waited there. How long did you wait there for?
I think a couple of seconds. What did you do then? Then I saw another SO19 officer come away from that carriage with his Glock shouting, "Clear the area, clear the area", or words to that effect. That's when
I stepped off my carriage and screamed -- not screamed -- shouted to everyone else, "Clear the area", and took people up the stairs. So you then assisted in the evacuation of the train and the area? Yes.
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Q. A.
Did you see a number of your colleagues on the platform? At that stage I didn't notice anyone. I wasn't looking
for any colleagues, to be honest with you. Q. While you were at the tube station, either immediately afterwards or over the next hour or so, did you have any conversation with any of the firearms officers about what had happened? A. No. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
MR HOUGH:
Questions from THE CORONER SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: matters. I want to just ask you one question about the alterations to the log book. A. Yes, sir. You told us that you made those Before you start, I have one or two
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
corrections as and when you were writing the actual addendum to the log yourself. A. Yes. The next you heard about it was,
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
I think you said, some months later. A. It was five months later, sir. Five months later. Your understanding
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
is that in that five months the entries in the log had been subject to some sort of scientific tests?
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A.
Yes, sir. I don't suppose you know what?
Not at that stage, no. You were then accused, effectively, of
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
having wrongfully altered the log? A. I was accused of altering the log or being part of a conspiracy to alter the log, yes. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: log. A. And part of a conspiracy to alter the
You were interviewed under cautions?
Yes, sir. And you gave your explanation?
Has that matter gone any further? It
It was resolved about a year ago, I think it was. was words of advice from the senior management.
You were given advice about what?
How to alter logs properly. As opposed to improperly?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Yes, incorrectly.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Have you been told that as far as that
is concerned, that's the end of it? A. Yes, sir. So that your superiors in the
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Metropolitan Police Service are satisfied that what you did, in fact you may have done it improperly, but not
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with any wrong intent? That's correct, yes. Very well.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
When you were sitting on the bus behind Mr de Menezes I think, if I have the layout in my mind correctly, when he stood up to leave the bus he would then have walked down the top deck away from you? That's correct, sir, yes. So you would still be looking at the
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: back of his head? Yes.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Even if you had the gym card photograph
with you at the time, would it have helped you to make any better identification of him? I would say not, sir. Thank you very much.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Yes, Mr Mansfield. Questions from MR MANSFIELD MR MANSFIELD: A. Q. Good morning.
Good morning, sir. You now know who I am so I needn't go through that. I have only one question for you, and it relates to the period of time you are on the bus, so this is between Brixton and Stockwell; all right? Yes, sir.
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Q.
Now, so far as you are aware, is this right, you are the only one surveillance officer on the bus?
A. Q.
Yes, sir. First point. Second point: during this journey, did you
ever say, "This is definitely our man"? A. Q. No. Definitely, definitely not. Did you say at any time -- and I am not
Definitely not.
suggesting you did, and I'll make it clear where all this comes from -- over the radio that -- well, you didn't know him as Mr de Menezes, but anyway -- the person you were following was nervous, acting strangely, just before he stood up on the stairs? A. Q. No. Did you ever say during this period of time that he was twitchy? A. No. Thank you. So it's clear, that all comes
MR MANSFIELD:
from the statement of Charlie 2, the firearms officer. Thank you. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Yes, Mr Stern.
Questions from MR STERN MR STERN: Did you confirm that the individual who you were
following on the bus was in fact the person who had been followed pursuant to the surveillance earlier? A. What do you mean "confirm", sir? What do you mean?
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Q. A. Q.
There had been a loss of vision, had there not? There had been, sir, yes. So it was very important that you confirmed that the individual was the same person who had been followed before?
A.
I don't think it ever came up and the identity never came up on the bus. It was just -- his identity didn't I was happy the person I saw
come up on the bus at all.
on the footpath was the same person who was on the bus. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: You mean it was never questioned
whether it was the same person? A. Not that I recall, sir. No, not at all.
MR STERN:
I am not suggesting you questioned it, but did
you confirm to your colleagues that you were following the same person? A. Q. A. Q. A. Not. You didn't at all? Not that I recall. Would that not be incumbent on you? Not necessarily, sir. I was happy the person on the bus
was the same person from the footpath and all I relayed was his actions, not his identity. Q. Can I just ask you about the time on the platform, please. You said as you approached -- this is from your I am looking at the one that you made on
statement.
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23 July.
I think Mr Hough, although he didn't give It's
a reference, referred to the one in November 2005. page 265, about five or six lines down:
"As I approached the doors and looked out along the platform I saw a number of men run on to the platform and enter the next carriage along. I saw one of the men By the group's
carrying a black long-barrelled weapon.
actions/manner and the weapon I saw I assessed these men to be armed police officers." That was your assessment? Yes, sir. "As the men entered the carriage I heard shouting ..." Yes. "... and then almost immediately afterwards I heard a number of shots." Yes. Then there was some screaming and someone shouting for first aid. incident? Very, very fast. You heard the shouting at the same time as the men entered the carriage or nearabouts? Yes, sir. But you can't say what that shouting was, as I understand your evidence? So this was obviously an extremely fast
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A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
No, I can't say that. Did you see Ivor at all? At what stage? At that stage. No, I didn't, sir. You didn't see him standing in the doorway at all? No. You drew your weapon, as you have told us, and immediately after this incident there is a call or shout to clear the area?
A. Q. A.
That's correct, yes. Did you start helping to do that? I did indeed, yes. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Stern. Ms Leek?
MR STERN:
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MS LEEK:
No, thank you, sir. Mr Perry.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Questions from MR PERRY MR PERRY: Just one matter, if I may, please, sir.
Lawrence, I ask questions on behalf of Commander Dick, amongst others. What I would like to
do, please, is just go to your statement of 14 November 2005, page 272, up on the screen so everyone can follow this. It's the passage in the lower part of the page when
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you are dealing with the incident after you had driven along Brixton Road, just to locate where we are, when you join up with James and Ken. You do the driveby, don't you? Yes, sir, I do. Then you get out of your car and then you subsequently join them before you get on the bus, as we know, that goes up to Stockwell with you on it, sending the text that he is on the stairs? Yes, sir. So that is just to locate where we are. So you have done the driveby at Brixton and then you leave your vehicle and you are picked up by James and Ken, and this is what you were saying in your statement made in November 2005: "Upon entering the vehicle, James was speaking on his hands-free telephone set saying words to the effect that he thought that Mr de Menezes was a good possible for Nettle Tip. Before ending his telephone
conversation, I then said 'I don't think it's him' meaning Nettle Tip. James showed me the gym membership
photo card from H5/1 ..." That's the photo card we have been looking at: "... and remarked that if you took away the beard he thought it was a good likeness. I was not adamant in my
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opinion of Mr de Menezes' identity. during this conversation. car.
Ken was present
Moments later I exited the
I am unable to say whether my opinion was relayed
to the operations room however, I did not hear such a relay over the radio system." I want to ask you just a few questions about this, please, if I may. First of all, you say here during the
driveby -- that's the driveby at Brixton -- you formed the opinion that the person you were looking at may not be identical to Nettle Tip? Yes. So there was some -Well, I mean, it's probably just the way I phrased it. At no stage did I ever think it was Nettle Tip. What you have put in the statement may not be identical; do you say that's inaccurate? I'll just read it, sir, sorry. It's the third line down in that
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: paragraph. MR PERRY: Yes.
What you say is:
"It was during this driveby that I formed the opinion that Mr de Menezes may not be identical to Nettle Tip." That's accurate, yes. Then you are picked up and James was speaking, you say
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here, "on his hands-free telephone set".
Now, in
evidence today, to be fair to you, you have said you couldn't remember whether it was the hands-free or the Cougar, but this is what you are saying. At the time, yes. Well, in November. Yes, sir. I want you to assist us, if you can. Just so we
understand this, James was the person who was in contact with the control room using his telephone? I believe so, yes. You weren't in contact with the control room, were you? No, absolutely not. It was James who was passing on information? Yes. When James was talking to you, he was saying words to the effect that it was a good possible, he thought the person was a good possible for Nettle Tip? That's correct, yes. When he was showing you the gym photograph, it was to show you on what basis he had formed that opinion? I can't give you his opinion, but yes, I imagine that would be the case, to reinforce his opinion. This was a very important matter, wasn't it? Absolutely, yes.
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Q.
James was making it clear that he was very anxious to decide one way or the other the information that was going to be given to the information room; that's why this exercise of covering over the photograph, the beard, was being done, wasn't it?
A.
It was his opinion, as I said. likeness, yes.
He thought it was a good
Q.
But he was showing you and covering over to explain why he thought it was a good likeness?
A. Q.
I mean, I imagine so, yes. You say in your statement:
I concur that.
"I was not adamant in my opinion [as to the identity]." So you weren't adamant, but you have said in evidence today you don't know whether you expressed anything to James? A. I didn't -- I mean, the only thing I said to James about identity was, "I don't think it's him". anything more than that. Q. Yes, but that was before he had shown you the photograph and said, "Look, take away the beard"? A. Q. Yes. So after that on your evidence -- and I'm just interested in your evidence, please, so you can assist us -- you say you didn't say anything to him after that? I couldn't say
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A. Q.
No, I didn't, no. And you can't say what he then said to the operations room?
A.
Afterwards, no. Thank you. I don't know how much more anybody
MR PERRY:
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
wants with this witness and whether we can finish him before lunch? MR HORWELL: MR GIBBS: I have no questions. There was just one thing I wanted to pick up. Further questions from THE CORONER SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Before you do, I wanted to ask
something arising out of Mr Perry's cross-examination. You drove by at Brixton and you got, as you say, a fleeting full-frontal look at his face? A. Yes, sir. Otherwise a profile, and then you went
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
on down the Brixton Road and turned left in order to park your car? A. Yes. Then you had to walk back in order to
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
get into the car with James and Ken? A. Yes. So that all took a little time?
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SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
I don't know how long; not all that
long, I don't suppose. When you drove by at Brixton, you formed the view that this was not an identical man with Nettle Tip? A. That's correct, yes. Is it possible that you might have said
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
anything over the radio at that point? A. I didn't, sir, no. You didn't?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. I didn't.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: know.
Thank you.
That is what I wanted to
Yes, Mr Gibbs. Questions from MR GIBBS
MR GIBBS:
I just wanted to use the multicoloured document
that we have at tab 60 just to put one or two things in order, if I may. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR GIBBS: Yes.
It will come up on the screen in front of you.
I am looking first at the green entries on the right-hand side. They are telephone calls. That's
At 9:38 we have a call from Graham to you.
at around about, perhaps slightly before, the time when Mr de Menezes got on to the bus. A. Q. Yes. Do you remember what that was about?
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A. Q.
I couldn't tell you with any certainty, no. Thank you. Can we then go down the page and we see that
at 09:47:38 in blue, Mr de Menezes is off the bus, and he is back on to the bus at 09:50. entries? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Is it in that period that you drive past him? Yes, would be, yes, sir. Then if we go on, please, to 09:59, so that's on the next page. I have got an entry on the left-hand side Do you see those two
which is in brown saying that the bus is going towards the junction of the A3: "N top deck towards exit". It has your name by it because that's your entry in the log. Can we just look at that together with the
green on the right-hand side, which is this 12-second call at around the same time from Harry to you. Do you remember whether you were speaking to Harry before or after or at the same time as you were saying anything over the radio? A. Q. I didn't speak over the radio at all on the bus. So you spoke with Harry and if there is an entry about that in the log, it will be a relay from Harry? A. Q. Absolutely, yes. Thank you. Then we have, lastly, at 10:02 on the
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right-hand side in green, something which looks like a text message and that's from you to Harry? That's correct, yes. It was a text, was it?
It was a text, yes. I have put "on stairs". Was that what you
MR GIBBS: texted?
It was I believe I texted "On the stairwell" or something like that, because he was held -That was obviously at a time before you and before Mr de Menezes got off the bus? That's correct, yes. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr Gibbs. I do want a couple of minutes
MR GIBBS:
Nothing from me.
in the absence of the jury. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: concerned. Thank you. (The witness withdrew) SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: lunch. (1.10 pm) (In the absence of the jury) 2.10. Ladies and gentlemen, you can have Lawrence, that's it as far as you are
You are free to go.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR HOUGH:
Discussion re: timetabling Sir, three matters to deal with. First of all,
we would propose reading the statements of Adam and H11 this afternoon, except for parts which are entirely repetitive. I wonder if anybody has an objection to
that being done? MR PERRY: Subject to some editing, sir, which we will
discuss with my learned friend. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HOUGH: Yes, that's all right. Then Geoff.
Then we will be calling Geoff to give oral
evidence immediately after those have been read. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Can we get Mr Dingemans here? The
giddy prospect, Mr Hough, of getting ahead of the schedule is almost overwhelming. MR HOUGH: It overwhelms me, sir. We will discuss that and
maybe an announcement can be made after lunch. Secondly, just to ask everybody to give some consideration to which of the CO19 firearms officers we need to call. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: This is the ones you have listed as the
remaining firearms officers? MR HOUGH: Yes. As can be seen, we obviously need C2, C12,
C5, Ralph, Terry, William and Sam, probably Vic but slight query there, but then the following officers we would like people to think about whether they want
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called: C3, C6, C7, C11, D4, D9 and D10. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HOUGH: That's seven witnesses altogether?
Seven witnesses with letters and numbers, and If people can tell us first
then possibly Vic as well.
of all whether the witnesses need to be called and secondly, if not called, whether they need to be read or if a particular part of their statement needs to be read just to make a particular point. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Mr Hough has made the point. I will in
fairly short order be effectively repeating the enquiries in open court. "yes" or "no" or "read". MR HOUGH: Yes. Perhaps we can ask just to be told that by I would hope to be told then
either close of play tomorrow or first thing on Monday morning. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: As I say, I shall start asking the
questions on Monday. MR HOUGH: And of course we will have a bit of time tomorrow
afternoon because of the early sitting. The third point raised by my learned friend Mr Perry is that he may have difficulties -- he will have difficulties -- in being present if Mr Paddick gives evidence on 6 November as planned. We are obviously
concerned that he should be here when Mr Paddick is giving evidence if at all possible.
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SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Your underlined civilians, of course,
are all here for specific days, aren't they? MR HOUGH: They have been summoned. They have been summoned, so they will
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
expect to be called on that day. MR HOUGH: Yes. In relation to Mr Paddick, scheduled for
6 November, we were contemplating asking if he could be moved to Friday, 7 November. I understand that that
would be possible for Mr Perry and we will make enquiries with Mr Paddick. If that creates problems for
others, perhaps we could be told. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HOUGH: Yes, very well.
That's all I have. Thank you very much. 2.10.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: (1.15 pm)
(The short adjournment) (2.10 pm) (In the presence of the jury) SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HOUGH: Yes, Mr Hough.
Sir, yes, we propose to read the statements made As I read these, some irrelevant or entirely
by Adam.
repetitious passages will not be read and I am sure those behind me following will object if anything arises. There is one point which is going to be
clarified and I'll deal with that as I get to it.
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SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Yes, thank you.
Statements of CODENAME "ADAM" (read) MR HOUGH: These are statements made by an officer who has The first statement is dated
been given the name Adam.
23 July 2005, and he says this: "I am a police officer attached to a dedicated surveillance team within the Metropolitan Police Service. "On Friday 22 July 2005, I was on duty in plain clothes when at approximately 7.45 am I attended a briefing at New Scotland Yard which was delivered by Colin, assisted by DI Whiddett." Then he refers to the fact that at the briefing he was told about the different suspects: "At 8.55 am I was engaged in the vicinity of Scotia Road, SW2, and I was further engaged in surveillance Operation Theseus 2. "During the course of the operation I had no sightings of any subject. "Shortly after 10.03 am I was aware of armed officers leaving vehicles outside Stockwell tube station and entering the tube. "A short time later I entered the foyer of Stockwell tube station where I spoke to Police Officer Graham who informed me that shots had been fired in the tube
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station and that my colleagues were safe. "I remained around the foyer area for a short while and met other officers including Geoff, Ivor and Ken. "A short while later I left the station and returned to my vehicle to check the situation outside the tube station. "I then left the area and returned to my operational headquarters before travelling to Leman Street." Then he refers to the debriefing of the log. Then
there is a statement dated 21 September 2005 which sets out a number of telephone calls, and I won't go through those because the relevant ones will have been dealt with either on the schedule or by questioning of others. Then there is a statement dated 10 November 2005, and Adam says this: "I am a police officer attached to a dedicated surveillance team within the Metropolitan Police Service." Then he mentions something about Operation Kratos, but we have heard much more detail about that from others: "I saw photographs of the subject in the briefing pack that I viewed. I did not take a copy of the I do not know how many packs
briefing pack with me.
were available or whether there would have been enough
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for me to take a copy along during the operation. "At no time did I board any bus on the day of the operation. "I had no contact with 1600 [the operations room] or CO19 [the firearms officers] during the operation. "At no time did I change clothes during the operation. "I acted as comms relay for the foot units once they had entered Stockwell Underground station. I heard Ivor
ask if the control room wanted Mr de Menezes arrested before he entered the tube system. I heard a foot unit
say that he was onto the escalator, which I also relayed. "The next transmission was that he was running down the escalator and then running for a train towards platforms 1 and 2. team. I relayed this transmission to the
This was the last transmission that I heard from
inside the tube. "During the course of the operation, I was posted as team motorcyclist. I was engaged in the general follow
of Mr de Menezes and the buses on which he travelled but I had no sightings of him during the operation. I also
acted as comms relay at the tube station at Stockwell. "I was monitoring the SO12 surveillance radio channel for our team on the day. I was in constant
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radio contact with my colleagues during the course of the surveillance follow. I did not communicate
individually with any of my colleagues during the course of the follow. As far as I was aware, we were following
an unidentified male who had left 21 Scotia Road who was a possible likeness for a suspect from the 21 July failed suicide bombings. "At no point did I positively identify Mr de Menezes as the suspect Nettle Tip. "At no time did I hear any of the surveillance team identify Mr de Menezes as Nettle Tip. As the follow
continued I could hear that members of the team were trying to confirm or deny identification, but there was no definite identification given. "I heard the team being asked to give a percentage likeness, but no-one replied to this request. I heard
at least one team member say that he could not give an identification one way or the other. As far as I was
aware from the radio transmissions when Mr de Menezes went down into the tube at Stockwell he was still being treated as an unidentified male." Then he makes a statement on 20 March 2006 about the debriefing of the log. be read. That doesn't, I think, need to
Then there is a final statement, dated
3 July 2007, and he says this:
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"I have been advised following the conclusion of the investigation into the events of 22 July 2005 that I am not to be the subject of any criminal or misconduct proceedings." He then goes through the briefing and he mentions Harry asking for clarification about containment of subjects and says that Mr Whiddett shrugged his shoulders in response to that request. He says that he was on his police motorcycle and had a Cougar radio set and that the equipment was working correctly throughout the surveillance. He then says this: "I have no recollection of SO19 being mentioned at the briefing or of the fact that they had been or were being briefed elsewhere. "The first time I remember receiving information that SO19 were involved was when I heard over the radio just before the subject reached Stockwell station, and was still held on the bus, from James that they were making their way to join us. "I recall nothing in the briefing with regards to buses being mentioned in relation to Scotia Road. I was
never aware that a request to suspend buses had been refused. All I can remember whilst travelling towards
Scotia Road is overhearing on the radio members of red
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team discussing attempts to try to suspend buses from running along Upper Tulse Hill. "At no time was I aware of any consideration being given to SO12 effecting a stop on Mr de Menezes prior to his arrival at Stockwell tube station. As I indicated
in my statement of [November 2005], I did hear Ivor ask James if the subject should be lifted prior to entering the tube system." He adds that "lifted" was the word used by Ivor and that he took that to mean arrested or stopped. He then says this: "I never went down to the platform at Stockwell station. I remained on my bike outside the station to I recall two vehicles pull
assist with communications.
up behind me and saw several officers, obviously SO19 officers, get out of the vehicles and run into Stockwell tube station carrying firearms overtly. On seeing the
SO19 officers enter the tube, it was my belief that they would be too late to make an armed intervention on the subject at Stockwell." Just to clarify that last sentence, Adam has told us today that when he said he believed it would be too late for the SO19 officers to make an armed intervention, that is because he had heard that the subject was running for a train and thought that the train would
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have pulled away before the SO19 officers he was seeing had got down to the platform. Those are the statements of Adam. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: There was one other piece of evidence It's very, very
you heard about relating to Adam. peripheral.
But when Harry took his vehicle on up, you
remember, the Northern Line to the Oval in the case the suspect had got on a train, this witness who had his motorbike went in the direction of Vauxhall, which was on the other line, but obviously, like Harry, he had no idea what was going on at that stage at Stockwell tube. MR HOUGH: Adam doesn't say anything in his statements
about -SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: It was Harry who told us about that,
and that relates to him. Statements of HOTEL 11 (read) MR HOUGH: The next statements are from an officer who has The first statement
been given the call sign Hotel 11.
he writes is dated 25 July 2005 and he says this: "At the time of writing this statement I am a member of the HM Forces currently attached on duty to SO12 of the Metropolitan Police Force. "On 22 July 2005 at 0750 I attended a briefing at Scotland Yard Floor 16 that was conducted by Detective Inspector Whiddett. The purpose of the brief
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was to inform the grey team of details of the day's subject of surveillance. On completion of the brief
I deployed unarmed with the grey team to the Lambeth area to impose surveillance upon the subject address as previously briefed. The address in question was,
according to intelligence, connected to the recent London tube and bus bombings dated 7 July and 21 July 2005. At 0855 our team resumed surveillance of
the said subject address, having relieved red team who had started the surveillance serial prior to our arrival. One member of the red team remained in situ to
support [our] operation. "Shortly after assuming control of the surveillance operation the team was informed of an individual leaving the subject address. The subject made his way to the
Tulse Hill Road on foot where he boarded the number 2 bus and proceeded as a passenger towards Brixton and Stockwell station. of the team. "When the bus arrived in the Brixton area, the subject of surveillance got off the bus and headed north after a distance of around 20 metres. He turned round This was confirmed by other members
and ran back to a bus stop and joined the queue to get back on the same bus which he had just alighted. waited, he was seen to be making a phone call. As he Up until
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this moment in time, I had not yet seen the subject but all the sightings so far had been relayed to me over the radio communications system. "As the bus moved off in the direction of Stockwell station I was behind the bus in my car up until the point that the subject alighted the bus in the vicinity of Stockwell station. I saw the subject at this point
at a distance of 10 metres and thought that he was of a similar likeness to the photograph of the subject that we were briefed upon earlier that day. "I then parked my car and made my way towards Stockwell station in order to continue the surveillance of the subject as I reached the upper concourse. I was
aware of non-uniformed armed officers making their way in haste towards the lower concourse. As I reached the
lower concourse I heard a number of shots being fired. I did not witness the shooting nor did I approach the platform or the train where the incident took place. Shortly after the incident took place I was briefed by pager to return to Tintagel House." Then he refers to the post-incident procedures and the debriefing. He then makes a statement on 28 September concerning telephone calls that doesn't, I think, need to be read. Then there is a further statement also on
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28 September.
He begins that by running through details
of the briefing and the suspects that he was told about. He confirms his previous statement and then adds the following comments: "During the surveillance serial, problems with my in-car radio system made it impossible to make any transmissions of any kind. That said, I was able to
hear most of the transmissions made by the rest of the team apart from those who were on foot in Stockwell tube station. During the entire serial I was not aware that
Mr Menezes was referred to as anything other than a possible likeness of the intended subject of surveillance, namely Hussain Osman." Then he makes a further statement dated 13 November 2005. statement. He says it's a supplementary
He says he was not aware that the day's
surveillance serial was operating under Operation Kratos, but that Operation Kratos is an option that may evolve during a surveillance operation. He then says this: "During the brief I was shown a photograph of the subject known as Nettle Tip, a copy was not made available to me to take on the ground. Up until
I entered Stockwell tube station, I remained in my car at varying distances behind the route that Mr Menezes
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took on his way to Stockwell.
At no time did I board
the number 2 bus, when Mr Menezes alighted the bus at Stockwell I saw him in my rear-view mirror at a distance of approximately 10 metres I saw a clear but fleeting view of Mr Menezes's profile. I thought to myself that
the subject was of a similar likeness to Nettle Tip based upon the photograph shown at the brief. Due to
technical problems with my car I was not able to, nor did I, communicate my thoughts to any other member of the surveillance team or to SO19. "As I made my way into Stockwell tube station, I was aware of non-uniformed police officers making their way to the lower concourse. Some of the officers were
wearing police tactical baseball caps and some were carrying weapon systems in an overt manner. As they
made their way into the station they were shouting at the public to get out of the way, and exclaiming that they were police officers; some vaulted the barriers shouting at the staff to keep them open. At no time
immediately before or after the incident did I communicate with any of the members of SO19. "As I made my way into the station I was aware that our motorbike surveillance operator was acting as a communications relay, as is the usual operating procedure. With regards to clothing that I adorned
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during the incident, I am having difficulty recollecting exactly what I was wearing." Then he says what he thinks he was wearing and he says he didn't change clothes during the operation. Then he makes a further statement dated 20 March 2006 in which he mentions the debriefing process and says that he did not make any amendments to the log. Those are his statements.
All of those statements are read as being uncontroversial. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HILLIARD: Thank you.
Sir, the next witness is to be called, and
it's Geoff, please. CODENAME "GEOFF" (sworn) SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Thank you. Questions from MR HILLIARD MR HILLIARD: You are going to be known as Geoff for the Thank you, please sit down.
purposes of these proceedings, I think? Yes, that's right. I am going to ask you some questions first of all on behalf of the Coroner, then you may be asked questions by others. I think you have made a number of witness statements about events on 22 July 2005, in particular one the next
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day, 23 July? That's correct. Do you have a copy of that and the other statements with you? Yes, I have. Good. So that you, like all witnesses, understand there
is absolutely no difficulty about you looking at any of those when you want to? Thank you. On 22 July 2005 I think you were a member of a surveillance team, the grey team; is that right? That's correct. You were attached to SO12 Special Branch at New Scotland Yard? That's correct, yes. We have heard about a briefing at New Scotland Yard that morning and I think you were present at that? That's correct. We have heard that in the course of that briefing a photograph of Hussain Osman was available; do you remember seeing that? Yes, I do, yes. Did you keep a copy of that or not? No, I didn't. You also, is this right, took a Glock pistol and
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ammunition with you on the operation? That is correct. Once you were armed in that way, once the briefing was over, did you make your way to the vicinity of Scotia Road? Not initially but subsequently, yes. In due course. I think everybody in the grey team that
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
we have heard of so far was armed; do you know whether that's so? I am not sure, sir, if every member of the team was armed. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Quite a lot of you were?
But most, I would suggest, yes. Most, yes. I am looking at your statement. You
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR HILLIARD: Right.
explain that observations began shortly before 9 o'clock in the morning; yes? That's correct. You explain in your statement that at 9.47 you heard on your radio that -- I'm going to say the person we are concerned with, because we know in fact it was Mr de Menezes -- that person had got off a number 2 bus in the vicinity of Brixton Underground station? That's correct, sir.
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Q.
What I want to know is this.
That's the first timed Had you heard
entry you refer to in your statement.
sometime before that and after 9.30 that somebody had come out of the communal door of Scotia Road? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, I was aware of that. You were aware of that? Yes. All right, and that that person, who, as I say, we know was Mr de Menezes, was being followed? A. Q. A. Q. That's correct. Had you also heard about him getting on a bus? Yes. You had heard about that. So you had heard about him
leaving the premises and about him getting on a bus? A. Q. Yes, indeed. Then, as you say, you hear about him getting off the bus near Brixton Underground station? A. Q. That's correct. Then about him getting back on the same bus; is that right? A. Q. That's correct. At that time, so the getting on and getting off the bus, did you have the bus under observation? A. Yes, I did. time. I had visual contact with the bus at that
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Q. A. Q.
Could you actually see him? No, I didn't see the gentleman concerned. Until we come to events on the train at Stockwell, did you ever see Mr de Menezes?
A. Q.
No, I hadn't seen Mr de Menezes until -Until what you are going to tell us about actually on the train at Stockwell?
A. Q.
Yes, indeed. All right. So the closest you have got is a view of --
was it the rear of the bus when it was at Brixton? A. Q. A. Q. That's correct, the rear of the bus. In due course, off went the bus with him on it; yes? That's correct. Did you make your way, following the bus or ahead of it for all I know, but in the direction of Stockwell tube station? A. Q. That's correct, yes. At Stockwell tube station, did you hear that he had left the bus? A. Q. Yes, I did. At any time, if we can just deal with this globally, had you ever heard over the radio the person who was being followed positively identified as being Nettle Tip? A. Q. No. Going to the other end, had you ever heard him being
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positively eliminated as being Nettle Tip? No. Did you ever hear a request as to whether anybody could give a percentage or a figure out of ten likelihood of him being Nettle Tip? No, I didn't hear that, no. Stockwell tube station, you hear that he is off the bus. Whilst you were in the process of parking your vehicle, did you hear Ivor asking if the subject should be stopped? Yes, I did. Those are the words I am taking from your statement. Can you remember now whether those were the words he used or not? I can't remember the exact words, but I was in no doubt that his words were asking whether he should be stopped. Did you hear the reply from James, which was that he should wait? Yes. Did you then hear that the subject had entered the Underground station at Stockwell? Yes. And that he was running down the escalator? I didn't hear running down the escalator. You didn't. I am looking at your statement, but you
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don't think now that's -- do you want to have a look at that? Yes, please do. Second page, if you count down the lines, seven lines down. Right, yes, I can see that. Do you reckon that's right? It's
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
a good deal nearer the time. please say so.
If it doesn't ring a bell,
It doesn't ring a bell, it doesn't. So no recollection of that now; all you can
MR HILLIARD:
say is that's what you put in your statement the next day? Yes. Certainly you have heard over the radio, is this right, that he has gone into the Underground station? That's right. And what, as you remember it now, that he was making his way down the escalator rather than running? Yes, making his way down. I mean, it may be that he was
making his way down quickly, but -Don't worry. But that is just what you remember now, he
was going down the escalator? Yes. Yes, yes.
Did you then go into the station?
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A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
I did, yes. Through the ticket barrier? Yes. Did you run on to the down escalator? I did, yes, or moved quickly on to it. Can you help us: as far as you were concerned, why were you doing that? at this stage? What did you think was going to happen
A.
Well, I was obviously aware that Mr de Menezes had made his way into the tube station and I assume towards the train and I was aware that at least two of my colleagues had followed Mr Menezes into the station.
Q. A. Q. A.
Those being? Ken and Ivor. Yes. My intention was to offer support to them and to continue with the surveillance follow of Mr Menezes, so I made my way into the station in order for that to continue.
Q.
At that time, is that what you thought was going to happen; that the surveillance follow would continue?
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes, indeed. Had you heard anything about "state red" being declared? No. Did you know or did you have any information that SO19
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were in the area? No. Right. Is this right: that as you went down the
escalator you could see another of your colleagues, Malcolm? Yes, that's right. Was he on the escalator in front of you? In front of me, yes. When you got to the bottom of the escalator, did you make your way along -- there is a little passage you can go through, we have seen, if we put up picture 31, divider 31, on the screen. We know, we have seen and I'm sure you remember, you come down the escalators, you then go along what's been described as a little alleyway and then do you see a view of the platform entrance from the entrance hall? Yes. This is the first of those little passages. Yes. Does it bring it back to mind? It does. I don't exactly remember which of the
entrances I went through, but I would imagine it was the first of those entrances. All right. Through you go, and we have heard that there
was a train stationary on the platform; is that right?
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A. Q.
That's correct. When you went -- I suppose it would rather depend which passageway you had gone through, but could you see that the doors of the train were open?
A.
Yes, I recall that they were, and I made my way towards the train.
Q.
If we just have, please, divider 35 on the screen. I don't know if it has it on yours but unhelpfully there is a bit of a blob in the middle, but hopefully that will go if we are patient. Can you see the tube carriage there? Mr de Menezes's position is marked? Can you see
A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
Yes, I can. You can see two sets, do you see, of double doors? Yes. As it were, platform side as the train was? Yes. Then at the far end can you see there is a single door? Yes. The first double door, so on the left as you look at it, those are actually the double doors that you could see --
A. Q.
Okay. -- through that first passageway that we looked at; all right?
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Looking at that drawing of the compartment, does that help you as to which doors you got on? doesn't ... No, it does, because I made my way along the platform -Right. -- to the right as we are looking at the screen -Yes. -- and entered the train via the furthest door to the right, the single door. Right. In this carriage? If it
In this carriage, sir. Single door, far right, as the Coroner says,
MR HILLIARD:
of this carriage? Of this carriage, sir, yes. So whichever archway you had gone through, you had walked along the platform a bit? Yes, that's correct. Had you seen Malcolm when you were on the platform? No, not on the platform. Right. I recall I only saw him when we were both on the escalator. Right. Sorry, you said -- sorry, Malcolm, you are talking
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about? Malcolm. Can I? Keep an eye on your statement. Yes, because -That is why you
You are allowed to do that, you see. have it? Right, sorry. a second. Don't worry about it.
I was confused as to who Malcolm was for
Malcolm was stood near the open double doors. Can you remember which open double doors? I can't, I am sorry. All right, but standing, what, near them? Yes, near the doors, yes. You make your way then on to the train through the single door? That's correct, yes. Then whereabouts did you go once you had got on to the train? Well, I walked to the opposite closed door, if that makes sense. So you have come in, as it were, far right? Yes, and then walk -Then you go upwards and -Yes, straight upwards, so it is across -To the closed single door?
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To the other door?
-- to the other door, yes, which is obviously closed. Yes.
MR HILLIARD: A.
Then I just remained in that area, which would afford me a view of the --
Q.
So we understand, do you have your back to that closed door?
A. Q. A.
Back to that closed door, that's correct. Could you see Ivor anywhere? Yes, I could. Ivor was sat on one of the seats to my
right, which would have been facing the platform. Q. So, as it were, Mr de Menezes's side, as it were, of the carriage? A. Q. Yes. So he is sitting on a seat along there, as it were, in that section where Mr de Menezes is? A. Yes. Was he on the same side of the carriage
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
as you were now standing? A. That's correct, sir. Did you look around at all to see whether you
MR HILLIARD:
could see the person -- I mean, in your case, as it were, the person whose photograph you had seen earlier? A. Yes, I did. My initial job, if you like, was to scan
the train, initially to identify my colleagues --
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Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
Right. -- who I knew had gone down to the platform. Yes. So the first person that I was aware of was Ivor. Malcolm you have seen? Malcolm, sorry, I have seen. That's all right. seen? Malcolm you have seen, Ivor you have
A. Q.
Yes. Did you then look to see if you could see the person whose photograph you had seen earlier on at the briefing?
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes, I did. Were you able to see that person in the carriage or not? No. You say in your statement that you had been doing that, so looking to see if you could see that person, for no more than a few seconds when you saw Ivor get up from his seat?
A. Q. A. Q. A.
That's right, sir. Do you remember that now? I do, sir. Where did Ivor go when he got up? Ivor -- you are aware where he is sitting on the train -- made his way --
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Q.
He is sitting, you have told us -- can you remember, you see where Mr de Menezes is marked --
A. Q.
Yes. -- and you see where Anna Dunwoodie is marked; is it somewhere between the two of them?
A. Q. A.
Yes somewhere between the two, sir, yes. So he gets up? Yes, and then he has made his way towards the double doors, the first double doors you see nearest to Mr Menezes, the open double doors on the opposite side of the carriage.
Q.
Those double doors between -- if I say Preston and Wilson, you know what I mean?
A. Q.
Yes. Right, yes. So he has gone over there. Did you see
what he did there? A. He made his way towards the doors and then turned around and gestured back towards the seated passengers where Mr Menezes was sitting, and gestured with his right arm -- or his arm, I don't know which one, sorry. Q. Could you see at the time he did it who he was doing the gesture for -- I don't mean who he was pointing to, but for whose benefit he was doing it -- or not at that time? A. Not initially.
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Q. A.
Right.
Did you then hear some noise?
I heard some noise from within the direction of the double doors.
Q. A.
Right.
What sort of noise was that?
Just a general noise, and within that noise I heard the word "police" being --
Q. A.
Right. Audibly to me anyway. Just pause a moment. You say "noise
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
from the direction of the double doors"; just to make sure we are understanding what you are saying, does that mean from the platform? A. From the platform, sir, yes. Sorry, I should --
Yes, all right. The
I was going to say, "Inside or out?"
answer is out, is it, the noise is from outside? A. Yes, but obviously, as you understand, this is very, very -- almost instantaneously before the -Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes, so what is outside soon becomes inside? Very, very quickly, absolutely. Included in that I think you said the word "police"? Yes. What's the next thing you were aware of? As I said, my concentration at that point was on Ivor, my colleague, so I am aware something is taking place
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here, his gesture back towards the passengers where we now know Mr Menezes was sitting. So if you like I am
trying to scan both -- albeit they are quite close together -- both scenes here, if you like. Yes. And I was aware of a passenger getting up from their seat in the direction that my colleague Ivor had indicated -So you now know that is Mr de Menezes getting up? -- and I am now aware that that was obviously Mr de Menezes getting up. As you say, once he has got up -- do I understand it correctly? -- you could see, are you saying, that that was the direction in which your colleague had been pointing? Yes, that's correct, sir. Could you pause there one moment,
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Mr Hilliard. MR HILLIARD:
Yes, certainly. That's Mr de Menezes, as we now know,
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
you are talking about who got up? Yes, sir. Did you see anybody else in the
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
carriage stand up? Yes, I did, sir, but my focus, if you like, was towards
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where my colleague had pointed, but I was aware -SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: I fully appreciate that and I wasn't
going to ask you to say who it was or to describe them because these would obviously be civilians? Sir, yes. Passengers on the train.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Yes, indeed.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: get up?
You have a recollection that others did
They did, sir, yes. Any idea how many? Are we talking
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
about one or two, or everybody? I would have said three or four people. Three or four people, thank you.
So amongst that number, Mr de Menezes is one
who gets up; yes? Yes, sir. What did he do after he had stood up? Well, Mr Menezes stood up and then he made his way towards Ivor and towards the direction of the double doors. Can you say how he made his way; was he walking, running? No, his movements were quite rapid. He rose from his
seat quite sharply and then made towards the doors in
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quite a sharp movement. So he's made towards the doors quite sharply? Yes, sir. What happens, please? Bearing in mind the close proximity now between him and my colleague, Ivor, I saw my colleague Ivor literally grab hold of Mr Menezes -Did you see how he grabbed hold of him? I have previously described it as a pincer-like sort of bear hug. Where had Ivor got Ivor's arms? As I recall, he literally put his arms around -- around him, almost in an upright rugby tackle, if that makes sense. So they come right round behind Mr de Menezes's arms? Yes. I believe so, sir, yes.
Could you see where Mr de Menezes's arms were? No, I didn't. Were you aware of anybody else coming into the carriage? Well, bearing in mind this is happening in an instant, literally at that moment I was aware of people entering the carriage via the double doors that we have been referring to. So the same set of Preston/Wilson double doors? The same set of doors. Yes, sir, yes.
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Q.
How many people?
I am looking at the top, if it helps
you, of the third page of your statement. A. I was initially aware of two people coming on to the carriage, very, very closely followed by a third. Q. Right. them? A. One of them was wearing a chequered police identification cap; I don't recall which. Q. A. Q. A. So one of the three is all you can say? One of the three. Anybody with any guns that you could see? One was carrying a machine gun. focus, if you like. Q. Right. I am sure they were all armed, probably, here, That was my initial Did you notice anything about them or any of
but you could just see the weapon that one of them was carrying? A. Q. Initially, sir. You have described that in your statement as a machine gun? A. Q. Yes. Was that the same or a different person, can you say, as was wearing the chequered cap? A. No, I recall that was the same person who was wearing the chequered cap. Q. Did you realise who they were? When I say "who",
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I don't mean names, but what they were? No, immediately I was aware -That these were SO19 officers? Yes, sir, yes. Right. What happened with Ivor and Mr de Menezes? So
when we left, Ivor's got his arms round him in the way you have described. Okay. Well, Ivor has hold of Mr de Menezes at that
point, who is still quite close to his -- to the seating area, and Ivor pushed Mr Menezes back down towards the seating. Right. Umm ... If you can't remember -I can't remember. Towards the seat and certainly they Actually into the seat?
went almost down towards the seat, if that helps. What about the SO19 officers or any of them; what were they doing that you could see at this time? Obviously they were very close by as Ivor has hold of Mr Menezes. One of the SO19 officers I saw lean across They were basically -- Ivor and
and over Ivor.
Mr Menezes were back into the seat at this point. Before that, had you heard any challenge issued by any of those officers? I had not heard a challenge, sir, no, but, as I stated
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previously, I, again a fraction of seconds before, heard the word "police". Yes. But I don't know who that word came from. But, as it were, once they were in, directed at the person, anything about, "Stop", or, "Stand up", or, "Lie down", or, "Show me your hands", or anything like that? No, I didn't hear any of that, sir. So an SO19 officer is leaning across and over Ivor. What did he do, the SO19 officer? Well, as I say, he leant over and across Ivor and, with his pistol which I could see, put the gun towards Mr Menezes and then I heard the gunfire. Could you see whereabouts he put the gun? Yes, sir. The gun was placed at Mr de Menezes's head.
Could you see whereabouts on his head is what I am asking. There is a reason. It was to the side of the head as
It was to the side. I recall. And fired it?
And fired the weapon, or at least I heard the weapon being fired, and very quickly I heard several more, the sound of several more gunshots. Right. What did you do when the shooting started?
When that happened, I exited the train from the door
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that I had entered it from, ie the -Single door at the end? -- the single door. Then I went -- rushed around to the
open double doors, the ones which we had been describing where the SO19 officers -So you come out and along the platform -Yes. -- to those double doors, yes. you got there? By the time I got around there, I could see that Ivor was being dragged off the train or appeared to be being dragged from the train, from the carriage, by one of the SO19 officers. Could you see what had happened to Mr de Menezes? I mean, obviously I could see into the train and I was aware of Mr Menezes lying on the floor of the carriage. Right. Then you describe in your statement that: What did you see when
"Whilst the incident was unfolding I was aware of passengers exiting the train, some shouting, creating a general commotion ..." Then you say: "Once all the passengers had exited the train I remained at the scene for several minutes until I was directed to leave." That's correct.
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Q.
So is that down in the platform area, you stayed there for several minutes?
A. Q.
Down in the vicinity of the platform, sir, yes. Then, as you say, after a time you are told to leave and you do so?
A.
Sir, yes. Thank you very much. Questions from THE CORONER
MR HILLIARD:
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Could I ask you, before Mr Mansfield
examines you, did you have any idea as to how many shots had been fired? A. No, sir. It was several shots. I couldn't be specific. If
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Put it in a bracket, if you like.
you can't, that's fine. A. Half a dozen, sir. Half a dozen?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: firing? A.
Were you aware of more than one gun
I wasn't aware of more than one gun, sir, but I was aware of several shots.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
All right.
We know that in fact more
than one gun was discharged, but however it was and however many, were all the shots fired within a very short space of time?
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A.
Yes, sir. I mean one second, two seconds?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Difficult question I know; don't commit yourself. A. A couple of seconds maximum, sir. From beginning to end?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Yes, thank you.
Yes, Mr Mansfield. Questions from MR MANSFIELD MR MANSFIELD: Good afternoon. My name is
Michael Mansfield. A. Q. Good afternoon, sir.
I represent the family.
I am sorry to have to take you through what was a very disturbing, distressing event for everybody concerned. I really only want to ask you about that moment in time when you have your back up against the single door right at the end of the carriage and Jean Charles is just sitting along the row from you to your right. The first point -- it's rather obvious and you have really said it already -- you plainly weren't expecting anything like this, were you?
A. Q.
No, sir. Secondly, the whole thing, that is from Ivor getting up, which you plainly weren't expecting, to the shooting itself could be measured -- and I am not going to ask
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you to put a precise figure -- lasted matters of seconds itself; would that be fair? That's fair, sir, yes. The estimate we have had so far, somewhere between five and ten seconds for this whole exercise; very, very quick? That's right, sir. That's from first hearing the noises in
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
the platform to the final denouement? Yes, sir. Five to ten seconds. The word you used at
Five to ten seconds.
the Health and Safety trial was "exceptionally quick". So that's how you described it. Yes, sir. That's the word you used. Therefore, what you are
reflecting on later is an extremely fast-moving incident in which you are then trying to think about the order in which things happened and the speed at which things happened; do you follow? do? Absolutely, sir. There is a slight risk in doing that -- and you are aware because the word has been used and I think we are going to hear a lot more about it -- that there is That's what you are trying to
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a form of perceptual distortion that goes on when you are watching something like that; you are aware of that? I am aware of that, sir. In other words, that if you are watching a very quick incident, everything within it becomes very quick; do you follow? I do follow, sir. The reason I ask you that is that what I want to suggest to you is that once Ivor had gone across to the door and pointed, he used this gesticulation (indicated), in other words he put his arm round like this; all right? Okay. Do you remember that? I do, sir. Yes. He gestured with his right arm.
Within that moment a number of people got up,
didn't they? (Pause) Are you asking me, sir, whether a number -Yes, within that moment a number of people got up? Well, as I think I stated earlier, my attention was focused on Ivor and then the direction in which he is pointing, which was back towards where Mr Menezes was sitting. So I am naturally going to be taking a lead
from my colleague's actions. Yes, I appreciate that. But as you were aware that
a number of people got up, the only point is -- all
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I want to put is -- that when this happened, some people got up? Sir, some people did get up. In one sense you might -- I just want to reflect on the word "sharply" -- they just get up because this is an unprecedented situation of men carrying arms coming on to a tube train. Oh, I do, sir, yes. We have had a description from Ivor. The two he Do you follow?
remembers, or the ones right by the door who come in, they are wearing T-shirts, aren't they, at that point; do you remember that? Yes, sir. And one -- yes? I'm sorry.
Yes, I don't particularly remember their dress, but -They are in plain clothes? They are in plain clothes, absolutely. The ones who go -- and I don't know whether you can remember this -- the ones who go across, do you remember both of them or only one? Both of? The officers who go across and actually discharge their weapons? I remember two going across to -- towards Ivor and Mr Menezes.
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Q.
Right.
Neither of those were wearing chequered caps,
were they? A. Q. Not to my knowledge, sir, no. Neither of those, to your recollection, ones who went across actually shouted anything, did they? A. I don't recall hearing either of them shout anything. I think I have described what I did hear being audible as the event unfolded. Q. Yes, I appreciate that. I know it's a very short time
interval but I have a reason for asking you specifically. Now, the distance also between the seat where Jean Charles is sitting and Ivor is very small, a few feet, isn't it? A. Q. Yes, sir. So having got up, the most you can say is he moves in the direction of Ivor, but he hasn't got very far, has he? A. Q. No, sir, he hasn't. Because Ivor is able to grab, pincer-like, and push back into the very seat he has come out of? A. That's correct, sir. Thank you very much. Further questions from THE CORONER SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Can I see if I have the -- there were
MR MANSFIELD:
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three men you saw approaching those double doors? I didn't see them approach the doors, sir, I saw them when they entered the train. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Yes, sir. Two in front and one behind, I think As they came in?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: you told us?
But very, very close together. Which one of them was wearing the
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: chequered cap?
I believe it was the third male. The one behind?
The one behind the initial two. Do I understand you to say that he was
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
the one who was carrying what you called the machine gun? Yes, sir, that is my recollection Which might have been a carbine or
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
something of that nature? Yes, sir, that is my recollection. So the other two had handguns?
I didn't see them at the initial -- their
initial entry on to the train, so I didn't see their handguns at that point. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: On the basis that they were both armed
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and both fired, they were using handguns? Sir. It's just a logical conclusion?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Thank you.
Yes, Mr Stern.
Questions from MR STERN MR STERN: Geoff, I ask you some questions on behalf of C2
and C12. Just so we have your position clear, you are in the far right side of the carriage against the door, are you, that is closed? Against the closed single door, sir, yes. Are you facing then out on to the platform? I am facing towards the open door and out towards the platform, sir, yes. It's from that position, is it, that you see everything that you have told us about? Sir, yes. It's only after the shooting that you actually move off the carriage and go on to the platform? That's correct, sir. When you were first on the carriage, as I understand it, you were surveying the area in order to see whether you could see the subject of the surveillance? Initially as I stepped on the train, sir, I was trying
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to identify where my colleagues may or may not have been. I am just looking at your statement. You say:
"I began to scan the carriage to ascertain the whereabouts of the subject." Do you have that? Where are we in the statement, sir? Well, it's page 188. Sorry. Do you have the page numbers at the bottom? Right, yes. You may have a different pagination. from the bottom: "... three or four passengers on seats opposite me with their backs to the platform, four or five passengers ..." I see, sir, thank you. "I began to scan the carriage to ascertain the whereabouts of the subject." Sir, yes. Yes? Sir. Is that right? That's correct, sir, to identify the location of the subject and my colleagues. About ten lines up
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Q.
Yes.
Let me make it clear I'm not criticising you.
It's very difficult, three years on, to remember everything that happened and in the precise order it happened. Let me make that clear.
The next thing happened is you see Ivor get up from his seat, go over to the double doors, and did you see what he did when he was there? the door or not? A. No, sir, I didn't see him block the door, but he went to the door, quite close to the door, and, as has been stated, I saw him gesture back towards the area of the seating. Q. At that point you had not actually identified the subject of the surveillance, had you? A. Q. That's correct, I hadn't identified him. What caused you to identify the subject of the surveillance was the movement of the person who we now know to be Mr de Menezes from his seat? A. Well, sir, I think I may have stated I was guided by the actions of my colleague. Q. A. Yes. His gesturing with his arm back towards the vicinity of Mr Menezes made me draw my attention to that area, so that's the point that I was aware. Q. Yes, I understand that. You looked towards the area of Did you see him block
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that seating but there were several people there, weren't there? I don't recall there being several people there, sir, but there were -All right, you tell us: how many people were there around Mr de Menezes? I can't give an exact figure for that, sir, but there were several people, as I recall, in the carriage, but bear in mind now we are focusing on a small area of that carriage to which my colleague has indicated. Was there no-one next to him as you recall it? I don't recall, sir. next to him. Once that happened -- and the way again you put it in your statement was: "I then heard a shout from the direction of the open doors." Again, page 188. I have got it, sir. Can you see five lines up? Yes, I have got my statement here, sir. It was a shout, was it? It was audible. I don't -I don't recall another passenger
I am just reading it from your statement made on 23 July 2005.
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A. Q. A. Q.
I heard the word ... It's there for you to see on the screen if you prefer. Yes, it's easier. "I then heard a shout from the direction of the open doors which included the word 'police'."
A. Q. A. Q. A.
I can see it, sir. That's your statement? Yes, sir, yes. Do you recall that now or not? I recall quite vividly that I heard the word "police" in -- audibly at that point.
Q.
At that point you had not seen a police officer apart from Ivor?
A. Q.
That's correct, sir. Then, as your statement continues: "Immediately I was aware of a passenger rise sharply from his seat." That's the way you put it?
A. Q.
Yes, sir. "He was sitting in the area where Ivor was pointing. The male was dressed in a blue denim jacket and had short dark hair. He appeared animated and made towards
Ivor, who immediately grabbed hold of him in a pincer-like bear hug." Does that refresh your memory of --
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A. Q. A. Q.
Yes, sir, it does. -- how it happened? Yes, sir. Could I just ask, please, to have up on the screen the evidence that you gave at the Health and Safety trial; you will be pleased to know not all of it. 9 October 2007, page 26. line down: "Question: anybody else? "Answer: No, not at that stage. I mean, there were Once you had seen Ivor, did you see At the top of the page, third
several passengers on the train at that time but I wasn't aware of anybody that I was familiar with." Then you are asked to say what happened in your own words: "Answer: Literally within the space of a couple of
seconds, I saw my colleague, Ivor, get up from his seat and make his way towards -- away from me and towards the direction of the first set of double doors. Having done
so, he sort of turned to his right and sort of made a gesture back towards passengers in the carriage. "Question: "Answer: "Question: after that? Did you hear anything? Not at that stage, I didn't hear anything. He made a gesture and what happened
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"Answer:
At that time -- again, this is happening
exceptionally quickly -- I heard a shout from the direction of the double doors ..." So this is what you said in evidence last year.
"... and in that shout I heard the word 'police' shouted. That having happened, it evidently prompted
a bit of a response from the carriage and I was aware of a male that was to my right jump up from his seat, and that was sort of generally in the direction that my colleague Ivor was pointing at that time. "Question: You said that produced a reaction in the
carriage; do you mean in terms of other passengers? "Answer: I wasn't aware of what other passengers
were doing ... but for some reason my attention was drawn to ... one particular male, who we now know to be Mr de Menezes, who sort of rose sharply from his seat at that time." Does that refresh your memory that at the time that the shouting had taken place -- and I appreciate this all happened extremely quickly -- there was one passenger who rose sharply or -- you have described it in a variety of ways -- jumped up, and in fact if we look a little further down at line 15, you have him leaping from his seat. That is the way you described it
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there.
Do you see it?
I see how it's described, sir, yes. You say you were not aware of the other passengers at that time. Yes, sir. So is that right? Well, I think what I am saying there and what I am saying to you now is that whilst I am aware there are other passengers there within the carriage, my focus naturally is towards my colleague and the person or the area to which he is pointing. clarify that. This situation, as you have described, is happening very, very quickly. Imagining the scenario that we are It's important for -- to That's what you said last year in evidence.
in, my focus is on -- is very focused towards my colleague and the area to which he is pointing. So what
other passengers are doing is a peripheral thing to me. I understand all of that, but the question I'm asking really is what you put in your statement is this: that you weren't aware of the other passengers at that precise moment. I know it all happened very quickly and within seconds I am sure there were passengers leaving that train, and we will hear from them, for obvious reasons, there were shots; but at the precise time of the shout
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and then Ivor turning round and facing the other side of the seating, there was this incident which stuck out to you from those passengers? I am not entirely following, sir, here, because I think what I'm trying -- what you are trying to say is that I am not aware of anything else happening in the carriage. No, no. Let me explain. The point is Mr Mansfield has
said to you: look, there were three or four people that got up at the same time. That's effectively what
I think he might be putting to you. Okay, sir. What I am looking at with you is what you said at the Health and Safety trial in relation to that very issue. Right. It seems, does it not, on the evidence that you gave, that those people got up later, after this incident? Well -Do you mean after the shooting?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR STERN: clear.
If one looks at his statement, it's not entirely
Sir, if "later" is within a fraction of a second. Yes. I am awfully sorry but I can't pin that down to exact specifics.
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Q. A.
All right. I think that's what you are asking me to do, and I'm afraid I can't do that.
Q.
I think the point is this: you were focused on that particular passenger at that time?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Forgive me, Mr Stern.
You did use the
phrase "after that incident" and it's very difficult really to answer that until we know what you mean by "the incident". MR STERN: Can we look at your statement at page 189 and you You have described the
can tell us what you meant.
entire incident at pages 188 and 189 that we have just looked at; yes? A. Q. Yes, sir. You described the shooting about five or six lines down: "As he did so I saw a pistol in his hand which he placed at the head of the unidentified man and fired the weapon. I heard several more sounds of gunfire as this
unfolded very quickly and I stepped out of the carriage through the single door. I moved quickly to the open
double doors, and on doing so I saw Ivor being dragged out of the carriage and on to the platform by an SO19 officer." Then you say: "I could see through the open doors the ... lifeless
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body ... on the floor ..." In fact we have heard that the body remained on the seat and then was put on the floor later on. All right. That may not ... "Whilst the incident was unfolding I was aware of passengers exiting the train, some shouting, creating a general commotion." Was that during the time of the shooting or after the shooting, or can you not now remember? No, I -That relates to leaving the train.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR STERN: Yes.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
What he was being asked about earlier
was whether anybody stood up from their seats. MR STERN: Yes. That's the only -What I thought you were putting to
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
him -- I am not sure what you are putting, actually, or whether you are putting anything. I thought you were
suggesting that nobody moved out of their seats until after the shots were fired. suggesting? MR STERN: the -SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: What Geoff has told both me and I am not in a position to put that. I think Is that what you are
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Mr Mansfield is that when Mr de Menezes stood up, I think, having apparently heard the noises, what Geoff then said -- and we will ask him again whether he thinks this is right -- is that about the time, and I appreciate these are minuscule split-seconds, that Mr de Menezes stood up, so did one, two, three or four other passengers. Is that right? Yes, sir, that is right, but, as you rightly say, within a fraction of a second. MR STERN: All right. I'll leave it there. It's in his
interview. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MS LEEK: Thank you very much. Ms Leek?
No questions. Mr Perry?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: MR PERRY:
No, thank you. Mr King?
No, thank you, sir. Mr Horwell?
No, thank you, sir. Mr Gibbs.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Questions from MR GIBBS MR GIBBS: Can we just clear up some words, please, Geoff?
If you have page 188 up again on the screen, and if Tom could just use the yellow pen in the second last
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line to highlight the word "animated". you about that in a moment.
I'm going to ask
Then if we could go back to the evidence at the Central Criminal Court. 27, I think. It's 9 October, pages 26 and
I am looking at the last line of 26.
I have got "jump up", and then if we scroll on to the next page -SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: two lines: "I heard the word 'police' shouted. That having Actually go back up. Go up one line or
happened, it evidently prompted a bit of a response from the carriage ..." Presumably other passengers? Yes, sir. So I have "animated", "jump up". Then can we go
MR GIBBS:
to the next page, please, and at line 8 I have "sort of rose sharply", and at line 15 we have "leapt up". Now, "animated", "jump up", "leap up", "rose sharply". We understand this takes place very fast and
that you are not expecting it to happen; is that right? I wasn't expecting it, sir, no. And that you are standing, am I right, with your back to where Mr de Menezes moves away from you towards Ivor? I'm stood with my back to the door, sir, affording me some view of the carriage.
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Q.
So your view of Mr de Menezes is of him side on or of his back?
A. Q.
Side on. So let us just take those words together. You have used
different words at different times: "animated", "leapt up", "jumped up". It's all happening very quickly.
What was, as you tell us now, your impression from where you were standing of what he did? A. Having rose quickly from the seat, my impression that he was trying to leave the train. Q. So moving in the direction of the double doors towards where Ivor was? A. Q. A. Q. That's correct, sir. Towards where we know later some SO19 officers were? Yes, sir. Even if it was only a fraction of a second later that they were there? A. Q. Yes. "Animated" is the word you used the day after the incident. What did you mean by that? Did you mean
"rose sharply", "leapt up"? A.
What did you mean by that? I think it's fair to
Well, all of those things, sir.
say that his movements out of the seat towards the doors was somebody in a hurry, not somebody who was just casually about to leave the train, if that makes sense.
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MR GIBBS:
Thank you very much. Thank you.
No more questions, thank you. Further questions from THE CORONER
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Just one thing, please.
This is
a question about which you may have an answer or you may not be able to give any answer at all. You have told us that as far as you were concerned, what had happened within your knowledge or experience, before you went down into the tube station, was that you were expecting this follow to continue? A. Yes, sir. In a conventional way?
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
With you there to support your
colleagues who were also on the train? A. Yes, sir. When you heard the noise from the
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
platform and then saw these three men, you of course as an officer recognised instantly that they were CO19? A. Yes, sir. What did you think they were going to
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
do or what did you expect they were going to do, or did you have no idea? A. That split-second initial reaction, I think you have
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heard the term "hard stop", and my initial impression was that there was going to be a hard stop performed by the SO19 officers. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Just a moment. (Pause)
Now, we have heard that "hard stop" is something of a slang expression in the special operations areas of Scotland Yard. What do you mean by it?
It means that it would be an armed intervention, sir; basically that a subject, in this case obviously Mr de Menezes, was going to be subjected to an armed intervention and an arrest would be undertaken, but an armed arrest.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Involving either necessarily or
probably physical contact between the officers and the subject? Undoubtedly, sir. Undoubtedly?
Well, without going into how they perform their role, which I can't do, hard stops -- sorry, armed interventions can involve physical contact with the subject. But not exclusively. We have heard other ways in which it
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
can be done, by challenging from a distance, but this was obviously all at very short range? Very short range, sir.
188
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: very probable? A.
So physical contact you thought was
Probable, sir, but not exclusive -But not inevitable. Very well. Thank
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
you very much indeed. Further questions from MR HILLIARD MR HILLIARD: I just want to understand the context of What do you mean by "physical
people with weapons. contact"?
Do you mean body to body, pushing someone?
I just don't understand. A. Q. A. Apologies. Not to me. As the Coroner suggested, the stops could be at a distance, they could be very close by. I am not Perhaps I have not made myself clear there.
involved in how those officers get on with their work, so I wouldn't like to comment on how that might have been conducted. Q. A. I just want to know what you meant by it. I think even the close proximity of the -- I suggest that there was a possibility that some physical contact will have taken place, albeit that is not -- not exclusively would it be done so. Q. A. You just mean one body against another body? I really don't want to comment on that. Possibly.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
189
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A.
Possibly, sir, yes, but that's not for me to describe. I just didn't know what you meant. Thank you
MR HILLIARD: very much.
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
Thank you very much, Geoff.
That's all
as far as you are concerned. (The witness withdrew) MR HILLIARD: We can't let the moment pass, I don't think, Sir, as you know, and
without drawing attention to it.
the jury don't but they may be amazed to hear, that was actually one of tomorrow's witnesses because we are ahead of schedule. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: At the moment, ladies and gentlemen,
Mr Hough, Mr Hilliard and myself are revelling in an unusual situation. MR HILLIARD: I expect normal service will be resumed as
soon as possible and we will be behind again soon, but for a minute we are ahead. today. So we have run out for
So that's where we are. Very well. I hardly like to ask you to We will have to
SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:
turn up at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. wait and see. MR HILLIARD:
I think if we can stick to it, if we finish
early it's even better. SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Yes, I know. The reason why I am going
to stick to it is because if we come in at 9.00 tomorrow
190
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
and finish at about 2.00 or 2.30, it may well be that after you have gone in the afternoon we can do quite a lot more about finding a witness list, hopefully. I am putting indirect pressure on everybody in the room except you, but we will see how we get on. Anyway, ladies and gentlemen, I look forward to seeing you all at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. it. MR HILLIARD: (3.35 pm) (The court adjourned until 9.00 am on Friday, 24 October 2008) Thank you very much. That's
191
1 2 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
INDEX PAGE
CODENAME "IVOR" (continued) ......................
Questions from MR MANSFIELD (continued) ...
Questions from MR STERN ...................
26
Questions from MR HORWELL .................
31
Questions from MR GIBBS ...................
44
Questions from THE CORONER ................
50
Further questions from MR HILLIARD ........
52
CODENAME "TIM" (sworn) ...........................
54
Questions from MR HILLIARD ................
54
Questions from MR MANSFIELD ...............
65
74
CODENAME "LAWRENCE" (sworn) ......................
77
192
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Questions from MR HILLIARD ................ 142 CODENAME "GEOFF" (sworn) ......................... 142 Statements of HOTEL 11 (read) .................... 137 Statements of CODENAME "ADAM" (read) ............. 131 Discussion re: timetabling ....................... 128 Questions from MR GIBBS ................... 125 Further questions from THE CORONER ........ 124 Questions from MR PERRY ................... 119 Questions from MR STERN ................... 116 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 115 Questions from THE CORONER ................ 113 Questions from MR HOUGH ................... 77
193
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Questions from THE CORONER ................
165
Questions from MR MANSFIELD ...............
166
Further questions from THE CORONER ........
170
Questions from MR STERN ...................
172
183
Further questions from THE CORONER ........
186
Further questions from MR HILLIARD ........
188

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Thursday, 23 October 2008

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Yes, sir.

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: movement?

Did he move slowly, quickly?

In my statement I wrote that he advanced towards us. That's right.

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A.

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:

But then of course he came

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: there yet. MR MANSFIELD:

No, I am most grateful.

In fact those are

questions that I had in mind. Questions from MR MANSFIELD (continued)

Good morning, Ivor.

Understood. So you are back in that seat. Up to that point, so now

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A.

I can't see from here whether you have it there.

If you just look at volume 2.

When I tried to take

battery so that it detonates. technique? I understand, sir, yes.

Are you aware of that

your evidence. Am I able to see that?

We now know of course there wasn't any

There wasn't any intelligence.

It's not just hindsight

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:

Well, there is a logic in that.

you stand up, he is capable of seeing you stand up.

Less than ten seconds.

You gave a dramatic indication

Could I just break that down a moment,

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:

panic and screaming and general disruption in the carriage.

Yes, sir. Just focus for a moment on the very

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:

said, "He's here", you pointing to him.

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:

diagram of the carriage itself again. screen.

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: foot?

I was, sir, yes, as I explained. Which side of the doorway, left or

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A.

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: platform?

Do you mean one foot back on the

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: A. Yes.

What I want to ask you is whether in fact

He was away from the seat and, as you

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: your back?

I believe I have it over my left shoulder. so, sir. I can't be certain.

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:

I think we know the answer to the next

SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT:

the question, really. comment on. No, sir.

It's not something you can