Greetings space friends! It's been a little while since I've sat down to have a bit of a write. My last posting ruffled a few feathers (mostly with the rest of the CSM) so I resolved to hold off on another posting until I had something more constructive to say.
While I'm on the CSM front, things have been relatively quiet from a Lowsec PVP representative perspective for this update cycle. As you're likely aware, Crius is all about the new industry changes. I find them interesting, and there's been a ton of debate and work internally making sure that the devs get things right hopefully on the first pass, but the majority of that debate has been carried by members of the CSM with far more invested in industry than yours truly. I don't really build much, and most of what I sell is looted from wrecks, so Sugar Kyle is far more qualified between your 2 lowsec reps to talk about and represent that aspect of things. Fuzzy Steve has been especially indispensable for this update.
For my part, Crius works like this: "Is it going to be more efficient to do industry in lowsec than high?" Everyone seems to be nodding their heads yes. The capital manufacturers are getting a special POS module to make up the gap in cap production between us and null. FW people will have the ability to get some deep discounts on production costs with system upgrades. There's a bunch of other stuff involved as well, but the bottom line is that lowsec isn't getting the shaft, and I'm content to not make a scene about it.
On the subject of the summer summit, a tentative week had been set that I had off from work, but the conference needed to be moved to its present week. Unfortunately, I can't move vacation so there are likely to be several sessions I won't be able to attend. As we get closer to the summit, I'll work with folk to see if we can get lowsec related stuff scheduled for earlier in the morning so i can alarm clock 5 and 6am local time sessions, or hopefully be able to score a day off on either the Wednesday or Thursday to catch sessions then.
The Winter summit should be less of an issue as I'll hopefully be able to plan vacation time AFTER we get a final date. I still won't be able to make a trip to Iceland, but the technology for attending virtual conferences at CCP HQ works exceptionally well, and I won't be missing much besides the after hours elbow rubbing, drinking, and friend making... stuff I wasn't really elected to do in the first place.
Should anyone have any questions regarding CSM or Crius stuff, feel free to post them below. I'll try to answer anything that won't break the NDA. :)
FunkyBacon, Eve Online veteran, takes you on a journey of deep thoughts and poorly expressed opinions about Eve Online and its denizens.
Showing posts with label capital production. Show all posts
Showing posts with label capital production. Show all posts
Wednesday, July 16, 2014
CSM9: Quick and Dirty Update
Sunday, May 4, 2014
Fanfest from a Lowsec Perspective
The week was a rough one for me to cover fanfest. Real time just wasn't an option due to work commitments and not being able to watch almost anything live, but thankfully I had twitter, and a great Eve Media community to keep me abreast of the situation as it was developing and I don't think I missed many key developments.
One of CCP's teams that never seems to do any wrong is the art department, and holy balls did they come through this year. First and foremost on my list is the new Moa concept. I'd hate to think of myself as an overly vain person, but when it comes down to it one of the main reasons I don't fly the Moa is because it looks dumb. I prefer the Thorax as a cruiser gunboat in our zone due to tracking bonuses, but those shield resists would come in handy in some situations. I predict I'll actually have a few Moas in my hangar by the time that new ship model is rolled out. CCP's focus on adding warp animations to ships, like what they did with the Tristan recently, really adds to the visuals, and it looks like the Moa will be getting a good one as well.
The new Dominix concept is also of interest. The ship is on it's 3rd iteration right now (the launch brown potato, the Trinity Redesign, and a later reworking to fix some of the textures) and I still don't know where the drones get launched from. On it's 4th pass, it looks to be getting sleeker, and it'll now have a visible flight deck.
The Condor family of frigates wasn't particularly bad looking before, but the new model brings it from decent to bad ass.
A new typhoon was also unveiled. I have to say, I like where the art department is going with glowing Minmatar engines. It looks great on the Stabber line, and I think it will add a nice look to the Typhoon line as well.
Outside of art, I'm becoming more confident that CCP is thinking about lowsec in the upcoming industry changes. The mention of bringing in a lowsec only POS module to construct capital ship components at an especially high ME will be most welcome if it significantly closes the refinery gap we're seeing between null outposts and POS modules available to lowsec industry.
No one out here is too worried about the tech 1 ship market getting taken over by nullsec blocs with an 11% advantage on compressed ore yields. With the nerfs to jump fuel consumption, and a low volume market when compared to highsec, I don't see null blocs invading our markets with a flood of goods being sold for less than we can produce them for. As I mentioned before, that 11% margin on capital hulls will be a huge deal if not dealt with. The POS module will increase the risk of building those components, and if done right, could close the gap on manufacturing dreads and carriers enough to keep lowsec competitive with null in that market segment. I am very much looking forward to details and numbers to how that will work out.
Next up, I was quite pleased to see that high value ore anomalies will be coming to low sec instead of just being a null phenomenon. Paired with the announcement of a new t2 black ops capable mining frigate with twice the ore hold of the venture, this could be an excellent start to bringing some miners, and by proxy other industrialists to lowsec. I see this as being a healthy start, but it's just that: a start. More love is going to be needed to fully flesh this out, but CCP is making steps in the right direction at this point, and I'm happy with where we're going.
The new mining frigate itself I see as an especially high boon for null sec miners. With the ability to black ops bridge them in and out of a system, they're the first mining ship that has a reasonable chance of being able to circumvent a large chunk of travel risk in null sec, and they'll have a good chance of being able to escape danger if they're on their toes with a Black Ops ship cloaked in a safe to provide an exit bridge. For low sec, a cloaking frig offers even more travel protection than one with 2 built in stabs.
Lastly, the move to a 10 point release development cycle is something I see as an overall positive. The last 4 "expansions" we've had haven't been much more than content patches really. If Eve development is going to get away from expansions that deliver significant new game play elements in favor of releases that feature a small amount of new content mixed in with a large amount of balancing and fixes, point releases at 6 week intervals will deliver that experience better. This may also give CCP Masterplan and his team the time they need to finally revamp the POS code. Good luck with that buddy, you'll need it.
Also on my great list was the new Eve Prophesy trailer. Amarr empire vs a capsuleer alliance building the first capsuleer built stargate in New Eden makes for an interesting story. Of course, this has nothing to do with reality in eve (the TiDi is conspicuously missing for one) but it's a badass trailer none the less, and shows us some of where CCP is going with the overarching story of Eve. Capsuleers are becoming more and more independent of the empires. As far as such 3-way battles are concerned between Eve, Dust/Legion, and Valkyrie, make no mistake that we are likely YEARS away from anything this epic, if it's ever realized at all.
First, Large complexes spawning as a regular part of the rotation, not just as rare and random spawns I see as a good thing. A portion of the community has asked for FW fighting to branch out beyond cruiser and down gameplay, and they'll be getting their wish. If you want to assault a home system, you're still going to need lots of frigs and dessies as large plexes will only account for 25% of the capturable assets, but this will give people who want to bring out the big guns a chance to do so. Of special note here is that even though you cannot light a cyno in the vicinity of a FW plex, you can light them elsewhere in system and warp caps into a large conventionally. I personally would not mind seeing a large plex fight escalate all the way to a cap fight, and that will now be a possibility.
The inability to cloak in a 30k proximity to a plex button is a bit of a mixed bag here. It sort of takes care of the the cloaky frig problem, but cloaks are a better defense for pilots paying attention to short scans, whereas stabs are the primary defense of pilots that are plexing AFK. The cloak nerf also kills one of the more successful tactics to hunt stabbed farmers, which is using a stealth bomber with multiple scrams to sneak up on, and snag a cloaky stabbed plex farmer. It also kills the bait and decloak recons gank method.
A far more effective way to combat cloaky stabbed farmers would be to nullify the effect of WCS inside of the 30k button radius, or to adjust stabs to make it VERY difficult to mount any kind of an offense if multiple mods are stacked on a frigate. What we need to be doing here is nerfing the ability to run FW plexes AFK. At this time, with stabs it is possible to sit in a plex with your client minimized, and simply warp off once you get that buzzer notification telling you your shields are about to drop. I don't think killing cloaks in plexes is going to solve this issue... at all.
Last up, and this one has me a bit worried, is respawns inside plexes. 2 years ago, we used to have huge NPC spawns and respawns inside FW plexes and they were a huge deterrent to engaging in any sort of PVP inside said plexes. Part of the reason for having the single spawn is so that the NPC can be dispatched, and then PVP can happen without the interference of NPCs.
Presumably, the point of these respawns is that someone who is plexing afk, will have to reopen the window periodically to kill another NPC before they can go AFK again. Fozzie has not told us how often the respawn will happen, and certainly hasn't mentioned if they have the ability to stop the spawn if there is actual PVP happening in the plex, but my guess is no, they can't. The NPCs offensively are relatively weak, but in a 1v1 situation, they put out enough DPS to tip the balance in an otherwise close fight.
As a PVPer, I don't like the idea of an NPC ship giving me an edge in a primarily PVP activity. Defense of systems is best left to the players, and what we NEED are mechanics in place that will prevent AFK farmers from being able to ply their trade with little to no risk. Anyone farming plexes and paying attention has the ability to watch their short scan and warp out of the plex before a hostile lands, or while a hostile is landing and hasn't fully exited warp yet. WCS allow someone who is not otherwise paying attention to run from fights, or to make bank if they are not disturbed.
WCS have a place for people traveling and moving ships or goods from one place to another in hostile territory, but they have no place as a means to enable AFK farming in an environment designed around PVP interactions. I am disappointed this part of the issue was not addressed at all, nor were timer rollbacks brought to the fore, which is something FW players have been asking for for years now.
If I was a Dust player I'd be beyond bullshit. There is a time and a place to announce the sunsetting of a CCP game in favor of the next big thing, but in Iceland, during Fanfest, at the keynote for that game that people have paid thousands to attend is not that time or place. The worst part of it is that CCP doesn't seem to have seen this reaction coming. Surely, even if Dust's devs are too dense to see how this would play out, they at least ran this plan by their CPM and got feedback about this possible scenario happening before going ahead and doing it anyway... right?
I'm not a Dust player myself, but I know quite a few people who are. The goodwill CCP burned this week by pulling this stunt at fanfest, and then not being ready to answer the most obvious questions that came as a result of this announcement, is huge. There apparently aren't a ton of Dust players as it stands now, but how many of those did CCP lose as a result of this? How many of the Dust players spending all that money to attend fanfest, or pay to watch the HD stream, are also their biggest whales in their cash shop and won't be spending quite so much money moving forward?
There have been a lot of dick moves done by game developers over the years, but this one might make the top 10 all time list. It's a certain kind of special.
The Good
I feel like I've been ragging on CCP a bit lately, so I'm going to start this post off with happy feelings.One of CCP's teams that never seems to do any wrong is the art department, and holy balls did they come through this year. First and foremost on my list is the new Moa concept. I'd hate to think of myself as an overly vain person, but when it comes down to it one of the main reasons I don't fly the Moa is because it looks dumb. I prefer the Thorax as a cruiser gunboat in our zone due to tracking bonuses, but those shield resists would come in handy in some situations. I predict I'll actually have a few Moas in my hangar by the time that new ship model is rolled out. CCP's focus on adding warp animations to ships, like what they did with the Tristan recently, really adds to the visuals, and it looks like the Moa will be getting a good one as well.
The new Dominix concept is also of interest. The ship is on it's 3rd iteration right now (the launch brown potato, the Trinity Redesign, and a later reworking to fix some of the textures) and I still don't know where the drones get launched from. On it's 4th pass, it looks to be getting sleeker, and it'll now have a visible flight deck.
The Condor family of frigates wasn't particularly bad looking before, but the new model brings it from decent to bad ass.
A new typhoon was also unveiled. I have to say, I like where the art department is going with glowing Minmatar engines. It looks great on the Stabber line, and I think it will add a nice look to the Typhoon line as well.
Outside of art, I'm becoming more confident that CCP is thinking about lowsec in the upcoming industry changes. The mention of bringing in a lowsec only POS module to construct capital ship components at an especially high ME will be most welcome if it significantly closes the refinery gap we're seeing between null outposts and POS modules available to lowsec industry.
No one out here is too worried about the tech 1 ship market getting taken over by nullsec blocs with an 11% advantage on compressed ore yields. With the nerfs to jump fuel consumption, and a low volume market when compared to highsec, I don't see null blocs invading our markets with a flood of goods being sold for less than we can produce them for. As I mentioned before, that 11% margin on capital hulls will be a huge deal if not dealt with. The POS module will increase the risk of building those components, and if done right, could close the gap on manufacturing dreads and carriers enough to keep lowsec competitive with null in that market segment. I am very much looking forward to details and numbers to how that will work out.
Next up, I was quite pleased to see that high value ore anomalies will be coming to low sec instead of just being a null phenomenon. Paired with the announcement of a new t2 black ops capable mining frigate with twice the ore hold of the venture, this could be an excellent start to bringing some miners, and by proxy other industrialists to lowsec. I see this as being a healthy start, but it's just that: a start. More love is going to be needed to fully flesh this out, but CCP is making steps in the right direction at this point, and I'm happy with where we're going.
The new mining frigate itself I see as an especially high boon for null sec miners. With the ability to black ops bridge them in and out of a system, they're the first mining ship that has a reasonable chance of being able to circumvent a large chunk of travel risk in null sec, and they'll have a good chance of being able to escape danger if they're on their toes with a Black Ops ship cloaked in a safe to provide an exit bridge. For low sec, a cloaking frig offers even more travel protection than one with 2 built in stabs.
Lastly, the move to a 10 point release development cycle is something I see as an overall positive. The last 4 "expansions" we've had haven't been much more than content patches really. If Eve development is going to get away from expansions that deliver significant new game play elements in favor of releases that feature a small amount of new content mixed in with a large amount of balancing and fixes, point releases at 6 week intervals will deliver that experience better. This may also give CCP Masterplan and his team the time they need to finally revamp the POS code. Good luck with that buddy, you'll need it.
The Great
The 3 announced Mordu's Legion ships planned for release may end up becoming HUGE for lowsec PVE. I'm not sure at this point how we will be going about getting our hands on the blueprints, but the announcement that they will only be attainable in lowsec is a big big deal for us. These ships should give lowsec PVEers one more thing outside of Tags4Sec for a lowsec only export. I expect we'll see an influx, especially early on, of people seeking out these ships, and you can bet there will also be a surge of people hunting the people hunting for these BPCs. It could be glorious if done right.Also on my great list was the new Eve Prophesy trailer. Amarr empire vs a capsuleer alliance building the first capsuleer built stargate in New Eden makes for an interesting story. Of course, this has nothing to do with reality in eve (the TiDi is conspicuously missing for one) but it's a badass trailer none the less, and shows us some of where CCP is going with the overarching story of Eve. Capsuleers are becoming more and more independent of the empires. As far as such 3-way battles are concerned between Eve, Dust/Legion, and Valkyrie, make no mistake that we are likely YEARS away from anything this epic, if it's ever realized at all.
The Mixed Bag
Some small changes were announced specific to FW.First, Large complexes spawning as a regular part of the rotation, not just as rare and random spawns I see as a good thing. A portion of the community has asked for FW fighting to branch out beyond cruiser and down gameplay, and they'll be getting their wish. If you want to assault a home system, you're still going to need lots of frigs and dessies as large plexes will only account for 25% of the capturable assets, but this will give people who want to bring out the big guns a chance to do so. Of special note here is that even though you cannot light a cyno in the vicinity of a FW plex, you can light them elsewhere in system and warp caps into a large conventionally. I personally would not mind seeing a large plex fight escalate all the way to a cap fight, and that will now be a possibility.
The inability to cloak in a 30k proximity to a plex button is a bit of a mixed bag here. It sort of takes care of the the cloaky frig problem, but cloaks are a better defense for pilots paying attention to short scans, whereas stabs are the primary defense of pilots that are plexing AFK. The cloak nerf also kills one of the more successful tactics to hunt stabbed farmers, which is using a stealth bomber with multiple scrams to sneak up on, and snag a cloaky stabbed plex farmer. It also kills the bait and decloak recons gank method.
Stolen from Drakarn. |
Last up, and this one has me a bit worried, is respawns inside plexes. 2 years ago, we used to have huge NPC spawns and respawns inside FW plexes and they were a huge deterrent to engaging in any sort of PVP inside said plexes. Part of the reason for having the single spawn is so that the NPC can be dispatched, and then PVP can happen without the interference of NPCs.
As a PVPer, I don't like the idea of an NPC ship giving me an edge in a primarily PVP activity. Defense of systems is best left to the players, and what we NEED are mechanics in place that will prevent AFK farmers from being able to ply their trade with little to no risk. Anyone farming plexes and paying attention has the ability to watch their short scan and warp out of the plex before a hostile lands, or while a hostile is landing and hasn't fully exited warp yet. WCS allow someone who is not otherwise paying attention to run from fights, or to make bank if they are not disturbed.
WCS have a place for people traveling and moving ships or goods from one place to another in hostile territory, but they have no place as a means to enable AFK farming in an environment designed around PVP interactions. I am disappointed this part of the issue was not addressed at all, nor were timer rollbacks brought to the fore, which is something FW players have been asking for for years now.
The Ugly
A lot of dick moves have happened in Eve over the years, but rarely has one been done by CCP itself in such a direct way as what happened with the Dust players at their keynote this year. here you have a number of people who likely paid thousands of dollars (or Euros, or whatever their currency is) to come to Iceland to celebrate your game with CCP and other fans, and are then (quite publicly I might add) punched in the dick while the successor to their game dominates the Dust514 keynote.If I was a Dust player I'd be beyond bullshit. There is a time and a place to announce the sunsetting of a CCP game in favor of the next big thing, but in Iceland, during Fanfest, at the keynote for that game that people have paid thousands to attend is not that time or place. The worst part of it is that CCP doesn't seem to have seen this reaction coming. Surely, even if Dust's devs are too dense to see how this would play out, they at least ran this plan by their CPM and got feedback about this possible scenario happening before going ahead and doing it anyway... right?
I'm not a Dust player myself, but I know quite a few people who are. The goodwill CCP burned this week by pulling this stunt at fanfest, and then not being ready to answer the most obvious questions that came as a result of this announcement, is huge. There apparently aren't a ton of Dust players as it stands now, but how many of those did CCP lose as a result of this? How many of the Dust players spending all that money to attend fanfest, or pay to watch the HD stream, are also their biggest whales in their cash shop and won't be spending quite so much money moving forward?
There have been a lot of dick moves done by game developers over the years, but this one might make the top 10 all time list. It's a certain kind of special.
Thursday, April 24, 2014
Industry Changes and Effects on Lowsec Capital Production
Industry isn't my strong suit in Eve. I have some skills in it, and used to do some Tech 2 production out of a highsec POS about 3 1/2 years ago. I ended up giving it up because my heart was into looking for pew, and my POS wasted many hours in fuel between jobs. It just wasn't as efficient as it could have been.
With the new changes announced for manufacturing, BNANA's Logistics/Industrial chief (Gothie) mentioned to myself and some of the directors on comms yesterday that our capital production line is likely going to be grinding to a halt this summer. Of course, we're like "What the hell? We just got it up and running a couple months ago!"
I've got some handle on production, as I mentioned, I've done a little of it, but I can't really wrap my head around the numbers. When my own expertise falls a bit short, I do what any sane head of an alliance does, and I drag the guy who knows his shit into a conversation and have him explain it to me.
First up, getting into the capital game as a startup manufacturer requires an initial investment of around 14 Billion ISK for the BPOs involved in components and ships. Those BPOs need between 5 and 6 weeks of research each before the manufacturer can even think about building anything with them. As it stands now, this research can be done at a POS while the 14 billion ISK investment stays locked in a station. After the change, these BPOs will need to be actually inside the POS. In highsec, an industrial will have a 24 hour warning before someone can attack and RF his POS. Plenty of time to cancel jobs and get your stuff out.
I shouldn't need to tell you what happens in lowsec when someone finds out your POS is holding several billion ISK in loot, but even this is manageable. With slots going away, BPOs can be researched in a station, likely for a premium, but at least safe, transit aside.
That brings us to the core of the problem. Not even the guys that rode the short yellow bus to school would dare hold a mining op in lowsec. There are relatively safe places to do it in null sec, but where we live? Guaranteed hot drop in 30 minutes or less, MAYBE 60 if you can keep a low enough profile. Every single one of the 101 systems in our war zone is within a single jump from the 3 main Gal Mil capital staging systems, to say nothing of the threats posed by BALEX, Snuffbox, Stealth Wear, Scum, or any other group in the area with a titan and a t3 gang. The other war zone is considerably smaller than ours, and the people living there have bridging titans too.
With no local source of ore and minerals, any materials used in lowsec production need to be shipped in. With the life expectancy of a standard freighter in lowsec measured at about the 5 minute mark, that means jump freighters and fuel. The average dread takes about 1.5 million m3 of minerals to construct. Shipping efficiency is obtained right now through ore compression in modules. Our industrial arm uses 425 mm Railgun I modules mostly, which offer about 30x mineral compression allowing a single JF run to haul in enough materiel for about 5 dreads with some filler minerals to compensate for ratios.
With module reprocessing changes coming, modules can only be reprocessed for 55% of their minerals, which will sound the death knell for module compression when the expansion hits this summer. The good news in this is that ore will then hold a similar compression ratio, so we won't need to worry about making 5 jump freighter runs to build a single dread. The bad news for lowsec is in the new REFINING changes.
Gothie was kind enough to link me a chart explaining the differences in reprocessing. Considering that we can't build caps in highsec, we can ignore any small advantage lowsec may have over highsec in refining, and instead look to null sec as our competition in this market... a place that really isn't any more risky than where we call home, yet will see an 11% advantage in ore processing yield.
An 11% advantage on small ships is really no big deal. On a 2 billion ISK capital hull, 11% is a deal breaker. We're already locked out on Supercap production, but to this point we've at least been able to remain competitive on dreads and carriers. At an 11% disadvantage, lowsec capital manufacturers are just about fucked, GG.
With the new changes announced for manufacturing, BNANA's Logistics/Industrial chief (Gothie) mentioned to myself and some of the directors on comms yesterday that our capital production line is likely going to be grinding to a halt this summer. Of course, we're like "What the hell? We just got it up and running a couple months ago!"
I've got some handle on production, as I mentioned, I've done a little of it, but I can't really wrap my head around the numbers. When my own expertise falls a bit short, I do what any sane head of an alliance does, and I drag the guy who knows his shit into a conversation and have him explain it to me.
Military experts are saying lowsec capital manufacturers should start investing in lubricants instead. |
I shouldn't need to tell you what happens in lowsec when someone finds out your POS is holding several billion ISK in loot, but even this is manageable. With slots going away, BPOs can be researched in a station, likely for a premium, but at least safe, transit aside.
That brings us to the core of the problem. Not even the guys that rode the short yellow bus to school would dare hold a mining op in lowsec. There are relatively safe places to do it in null sec, but where we live? Guaranteed hot drop in 30 minutes or less, MAYBE 60 if you can keep a low enough profile. Every single one of the 101 systems in our war zone is within a single jump from the 3 main Gal Mil capital staging systems, to say nothing of the threats posed by BALEX, Snuffbox, Stealth Wear, Scum, or any other group in the area with a titan and a t3 gang. The other war zone is considerably smaller than ours, and the people living there have bridging titans too.
With no local source of ore and minerals, any materials used in lowsec production need to be shipped in. With the life expectancy of a standard freighter in lowsec measured at about the 5 minute mark, that means jump freighters and fuel. The average dread takes about 1.5 million m3 of minerals to construct. Shipping efficiency is obtained right now through ore compression in modules. Our industrial arm uses 425 mm Railgun I modules mostly, which offer about 30x mineral compression allowing a single JF run to haul in enough materiel for about 5 dreads with some filler minerals to compensate for ratios.
With module reprocessing changes coming, modules can only be reprocessed for 55% of their minerals, which will sound the death knell for module compression when the expansion hits this summer. The good news in this is that ore will then hold a similar compression ratio, so we won't need to worry about making 5 jump freighter runs to build a single dread. The bad news for lowsec is in the new REFINING changes.
This ship is about as vertical as the predicted drop in lowsec capital manufacturing is likely to be this summer. |
An 11% advantage on small ships is really no big deal. On a 2 billion ISK capital hull, 11% is a deal breaker. We're already locked out on Supercap production, but to this point we've at least been able to remain competitive on dreads and carriers. At an 11% disadvantage, lowsec capital manufacturers are just about fucked, GG.
So an upgraded outpost in null will have minerals available 19.9% cheaper than someone that refines in a NPC station, and 11% cheaper than a POS module in Low sec. Which means costs for building capitals that are that much cheaper....This is exactly the sort of stuff I was talking about during the CSM campaign season. It appears that without lowsec representation on the CSM, no one either on the CSM, or at CCP either realized this would be an issue, or cared, and once again lowsec is getting bent over and shafted while a severe financial advantage is being handed out to sov holding null sec entities. Call me a crazy bitter asshole, but the risk/reward is not computing for me in this scenario.
Some say "Yes but upgrading an outpost is expensive!!! It's many billions!!!". To which I call bullshit, when a player with 4 indy toons (something that is at the low end of any half-serious indy guy - I myself have 7) can crank out 60 moros or Naglfar per month, worth 130 billion at today's prices. An 11% cost advantage will simply kill out all low sec capital manufacturers, when frankly the risk of building in low (particularly FW low) is not exactly lower than null... -Gothie Maulerant, BNANA Logistics/Manufacturing Division
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