Talk:Black Mafia Family

Changes

Wow...I stop editing this article for a while and come back to it being butchered. I fought for YEARS of vandalism and constant edits of cited, reliably sourced content on this particular article. I wrote 85% of the article. I am done with it. It is so ridiculous some of the stuff I see removed, but I am done fighting for it. It's just not worth it to me anymore. I even see someone removed the image of the Buckhead stash house, claiming some guy on Flickr owns it. That is complete BS. I took the picture myself in Buckhead, Atlanta, GA back in 2008 while visiting to research this case.. Have a super life, Wikipedians. I just don't have the energy or time to keep fighting for this article. It's a shame. jlcoving (talk) 01:39, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Tag removed

A friend of mine wa stelling me about this 'group' and it seems to be a legitimate representation of the BMF and the legal situation so I removed the Need Sources Tag after adding amw.com link to the bottom. --Mikerussell 04:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

2005 raid and arrests

The section about the 2005 arrests is written very poorly and has no sources. Some of the sentences lack verbs. Should probably just delete it... Ernasty10050 04:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

'Informants' section

I'm not entirely convinced that this is kosher with the biographies of living persons guidelines. The sources seem to be court documents; have these names been discussed in independent sources, like the newspaper articles about this case? I've asked for some feedback at the biographies of living persons noticeboard, because I can see the point that these informants could be harmed by the publication of their names here, especially if their names have not been published elsewhere (except in the court documents). Let's seek consensus on the talk page rather than edit-warring, yes? However, I think the whole section should be kept or removed- there doesn't seem to be any particular reason that Daniel Corral is different from the other informants listed. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, his name and all the others have been mentioned at the following places:

http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/page?oid=175160 - The first major publication about the case. Goes in-depth about the informants and everything else.

http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/bmf/theplayers/ - Identifies their names and what they did.

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/states/newsrel/la112807.html - DEA and Justice Department press release on it

There are numerous others. My main argument is that all the people who would do him harm (the people he testified against and their friends) are ALL in prison already. Part of going to court is the discovery process, and you receive the names of witnesses against you. The provided source is his OWN testimony which he gave in FRONT of the people he was testifying against. They are already fully aware of his testimony and everyone else's listed on this page. These are all PUBLIC documents. They are not sealed documents, sealed testimony, or anything of the sort. Anyone with a PACER account (the federal docket system, available to any member of the public willing to pay for the documents to access them, which I did) can view these. Also, I was never edit-warring. I was deleting his vandalism. If what I was doing IS considered "edit-warring", I apologize. Also, if you contact Mara Shalhoup, who wrote the Creative Loafing article, Daniel Corral's name and everyone else listed on the Wikipedia page is included in her book about the case, due out in March 2010. It is available for pre-order on Amazon, the link to it is included under "Hip-hop presence".jlcoving (talk)

Further, all of these cases were decided SOLELY on witness testimony. There was not a single gram of drugs seized from any of the defendants (well, with a few exceptions -- the only amounts seized were personal use amounts and not included in the charges). So, without the witnesses there is no case; if you read the transcripts the government prosecutors say this multiple times to the jury -- "You should judge the witnesses as individuals and judge their credibility" is said many, many, many times in the transcripts.jlcoving (talk) 00:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The USDOJ link is a very reliable source, as is anything you can cite from PACER. CreativeLoafing may not be the most reliable; can you add the USDOJ and PACER cites to the article? tedder (talk) 00:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I had a link to PACER up as a source before, however the best I can do is link to the PACER access page itself, since you must have an account to actually view the documents yourself. I will add the USDOJ article link now and the PACER main access. Also, I understand at first glance Creative Loafing seems shaky, but if you click her "Deep background notes" she provides pretty good cites for her information. Most of them you can research and verify yourself, which I have.jlcoving (talk) 00:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The references don't need to be "linkable", they can be standard citations. See WP:CITE#HOW, Wikipedia:Citation templates#Examples, and {{cite court}}. CreativeLoafing probably shouldn't be used as a main source, but her sources would be good ones to check. tedder (talk) 00:51, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Apologies, as I've said and I'm sure you in particular are tired of hearing, I'm new and still learning the "Wiki" way of doing things as far as citing and what things to use in certain circumstances. I agree in not using CL as a main source; that article is what spurned my interest years ago in the group. As I stated before, from that article I checked out her sources she cites, got on PACER and viewed the documents in the case myself (I've spent well over $500 getting documents for this case and related ones on PACER), and even contacted attorneys of the defendants for information. I'm about to go to sleep for the night, have a huge Contracts law test tomorrow. I'll fix the cites and stuff then. jlcoving (talk) 00:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks for your willingness to work on the article, and to learn the wiki way. tedder (talk) 01:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

the Creative Loafing articles do not mention his name--69.237.152.220 (talk) 07:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)--69.237.152.220 (talk) 07:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Correct, but if you contact the author of that article who is writing a BOOK on the subject, her book DOES mention his name. Her name is Mara Shalhoup and you can contact her by her contact info on Creative Loafing.jlcoving (talk) 18:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, their importance is not just to a single case. The main case was in Detroit, where 150 people were indicted AND convicted (this was the largest # of defendant's case and largest drug conspiracy case ever tried in the Detroit district according to the prosecutor and judge). There was a related trial (still considered a BMF trial by the government) in Orlando where 8 people were indicted AND convicted. There is a BMF-Atlanta case where 22 people were indicted AND convicted. There was a BMF-Los Angeles trial where 20 defendants were indicted AND convicted. The testimony these witnesses gave affects ALL of these cases because the government flew them around to testify in each individual trial since they were related trials. So that is over 200 people affected and CONVICTED based on their testimony and their testimony alone (in none of the federal trials were drugs found), and in 4 different jurisdictions that all considered the cases before them some of the most significant to ever come before them.

Here is another link that displays not only the names of the informants, but the pictures of them as well. http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid:337283 -- another one is the following link which shows even more jurisdictions their star witness testified: http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/bmf/documents/BMF_BM_substantial_assistance_1-2.pdf jlcoving (talk) 18:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• First off, the title of the section "informants" is inflammatory and I strongly suspect was chosen on purpose. Second, these are by and large non-notable people. They may have testified in a public trial, but that doesn't mean we should make a huge issue of it here. Third, the source here is dubious. Lastly, the section is littered with mug shots. WP:MUG tells us to be cautious here and I can't see how there is an overriding need to ignore that guideline. This is a serious BLP issue and it needs discussed and a consensus reached BEFORE this material is put back into the article. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:47, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Have you read the previous talk for this "Informants" section and my responses to everything? The government in its own documents and words refers to them as "confidential informants." So how is that inflammatory? It's not called "Snitches & Rats Section." Also, "confidential informants" and "witnesses" are legal words that imply different things. The main difference being a "witness" voluntarily comes forward and agrees to cooperate; whereas an informant usually needs prodding (i.e. an arrest and agree to reduce penalty for information.) I don't agree with your reasoning that there is no reason to mention them here -- the informants were THE key piece to the case to link everything together; and by the governments own admissions this was one of the biggest black cocaine rings in not just the history of Detroit and Atlanta, but throughout the US. Without these informants combined testimony, there is no continuing criminal enterprise case against the leaders; i.e. no case period. With that said, considering the fact this is a major, major cocaine cocaine ring that operated in numerous states and that an integral part of the case were the informants, I find it very beneficial to the article and to the explanation of the case and sequence of events to include the informants. And the sources are not dubious -- they are court documents that clearly identify these informants via Plea Agreements, Sentencing Memorandum, etc. These are not informants that have been protected by court seal, but rather ones that have testified in public, with their names and addresses on the public record. jlcoving (talk) 04:26, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

• Yes I read it. For you to imply that I didn't certainly starts us out with a bad faith allegation. The word informant is being used in an inflammatory manner here and I strongly suspect you know that. This semantics game doesn't mask that, nor does your personal definition of the difference between the terms. All of this was not sourced by court documents and I am calling Creative Loafing dubious. Just because something has been made public doesn't exempt it from BLP concerns or how they're characterized. You're convinced you're right on this, so I suggest that we take this to the WP:BLPN for some independent opinions. I'm asking you to NOT edit war until we get it resolved. Edit-warring would be forcing back into the article information that has been removed for a BLP concern that hasn't been resolved. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:33, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

So Creative Loafing is dubious despite Mara Shalhoup being the only author on BMF to have published a book? Her sources were all vetted, my images were used in her book, I had to sign releases to her publisher and was compensated. I think I know a *little* about this case. But really though I have already been through all this with another poster and I just don't have the energy and time to go back through now and revert back all the things you removed. Also, how it "my personal definition" when the government uses the exact same wording in ALL court documents? This was already discussed in not just this Talk page, but in BLP discussion as well; if I had the time to revert your edits I would because I know I am in the right per previous BLP discussion as well as Talk page discussion. If you took the time to read the court documents yourself, which is as simple as registering and paying for a PACER account, you would see everything I've stated in this Talk page is correct regarding the informants and why they should be included. You also write off Creative Loafing and Mara Shalhoup's article (her book being based on the research done for that article) obviously without doing any due diligence to vet her or her sources? You seem to be just as convinced you are right on this and seem to have some interest in not having these names displayed despite the fact they are THE evidence against Demetrius Flenory in the CCE case. I take back my previous statement; as soon as I get the time I WILL go through and find previous BLP discussions and link them. I'd like to at least hear YOUR rebuttals for everything I've previously said in this Talk page. jlcoving (talk) 01:43, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

• My reasoning hasn't changed a bit. I'd also note that I'm not the only one who had issues with this. I suggested taking it to BLPN a month ago. Where was this discussed at BLPN? Provide the link. And don't tell me what I haven't done or don't know. It will only serve to make you look foolish. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:43, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

• I notice that the discussion at BLPN here [1] agrees with me that the names didn't belong and that the primary sourcing was problematic. 2 other editors opined, opposing your view, none supported you. There was only one in the archives, so I'm not sure where this other discussion allegedly took place. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:06, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations! I'm tired of fighting about this! You win...your informant friends are protected. Have a blessed day.jlcoving (talk) 00:01, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

• My friends? Um, you're the one with personal involvement here sunshine. Nice try though. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:08, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

No, I just feel that if someone publically testified and gave information that was critical to earning a conviction against someone, their name should be posted for all to see. It wasn't sealed, it wasn't confidential, it wasn't on "gag order." It was public record and public knowledge and should have been listed as such. But oh well, most people who would look up BMF on the internet have seen that section for the last 4 years or so.jlcoving (talk) 22:34, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Many things are public record, but don't belong here. More than one editor disagreed with your interpretation. Stop acting like there was only one person and no basis for it. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:49, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Prison sentence updates

Does anyone know if any of the people that are supposed to be waiting for a trial or a sentence have received these? Same goes for the amount of time that many will be in prison for. Will mention having "x years" left but am unsure when this starts from. Cleanelephant (talk) 06:38, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I would like to merge the article entitled Demetrius and Terry Flenory into this article because it has no new information that is not mentioned here. MDEVER802 (talk) 20:49, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

• Makes sense. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:16, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

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Joshua Sims not a part of BMF

I have been watching this page for the last 2yrs. This is due to a young man named Joshua Sims. He really tried to make it seem as if he was a part of the BMF family. I guess this is his hustle for getting woman to become interested in him. I am a really smart and very computer savvy person. The current state of technology allows every access to fact finding truths. His story and involvement with BMF is completely FALSE! He was never mention in the BMF Documentry on Netflix. This idiot stated key searching points like his name and a arrest on I-95 in Jacksonville,Fl (all public record) yet nothing was found except a few minor charges via COJ.Net and after a simple Facebook search I found out where and what year he was born (1989), which means that during the time frame of 2004 in which he is inserting his name. He would of been only 15yrs old. As a juvenile there is no way he would had been indicted along with the other members nor is his name listed in the public record of the indictment. He has also listed his name as one of the "Hit-men" for two major cases that brought the BMF crew down. Even though these cases where highly publicized in numerous news sources around the U.S. and Atlanta metro area in which Wiki also has a valid cited mark to find the original article. His changes are filled with grammar and punctuation errors as if they were typed by a child.... see original post here...

Wiki Original: September 2004: Ulysses Hackett and girlfriend Misty Carter were executed in their Highland Avenue apartment in Atlanta. Police say the murders were ordered by Tremayne "Kiki" Graham, then son-in-law of Atlanta Mayor Shirley Franklin and alleged associate of BMF. They claimed Ulysses was thinking of testifying against BMF and Graham, growing suspicious, ordered their murder.

Sims Errors: September 2004: Ulysses Hackett and girlfriend Misty Carter were executed in her Highland Avenue apartment in Atlanta. Police say the murders were ordered by Joshua sims, the grandson of new york mob alleged associate of BMF. They claimed Ulysses was thinking of testifying against BMF and mr sims growing suspicious, ordered their murder.

On April 11, 2004, BMF courier and high-level distributor Joshua sima was pulled over in Jacksonville along I-95 driving a black Range Rover, supposedly for swerving over the fog line. Two suitcases containing approximately 95 kilograms of cocaine and 572 grams of marijuana were found in the back of the Range Rover after a K-9 unit was alerted to drugs in the vehicle.

Testimony given during various trials say the organization operated as follows: Joshua Sims the grandson of New York mob organization operated five stash houses in the Atlanta area, nicknamed "The Gate", "The Horse Ranch", "Space Mountain", "Bugsy Siegel", and "The Elevator". Approximately every 10 days, vehicles would arrive with 100–150 kilograms of cocaine packed in secret compartments.

July 25, 2004: At a midtown Atlanta club called the Velvet Room, a man named Rashannibal "Prince" Drummond was killed. The incident began after alleged 3rd-in-command of BMF, Joshua sims nearly backed into Drummond in his Porsche Cayenne Turbo. After Drummond hit the car to alert the driver, the passengers of the car got out and began beating Drummond and his friends. During the fight, a friend of Drummond's fired a warning shot to scare everyone off; joshua sims allegedly retrieved his gun, returned fire, then walked over to Drummond and executed him on the ground.

Demetrius and Terry Flenory an Joshua sims were charged under the Continuing Criminal Enterprise Statute, conspiracy to distribute 5 kilograms or more of cocaine, possession with intent to distribute more than 500 grams of cocaine, conspiracy to launder monetary instruments, and two counts of possession with intent to distribute more than 5 kilograms of cocaine. Demetrius was captured in a large home in a suburb outside Dallas. Inside, police found a small amount of marijuana and a few MDMA pills. In a safe inside the house were several weapons, as well as multiple vehicles at the home.

On June 15, 2006, the U.S. Department of Treasury reported that 16 additional individuals had been charged with conspiracy to distribute cocaine and money laundering charges under a second, superseding indictment, bringing the number of people charged in the case to 49. The list of accused included Jacob Arabov, popularly known as Jacob the Jeweler, a well-known celebrity jeweler in the hip-hop community. Arabov and Joshua sims were charged with conspiracy to launder more than $270 million in illegally obtained funds.

All of these conflicts can be found via a simple google search. I hope others that Josh Sims gives this lame story to, have the common sense to look at the talk page before believing his fantasy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C4F1:CF40:45DD:D4DF:9E82:CDAA (talk) 20:33, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

References

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"Nationwide"

@N0b0d33sp3c1al: wants to change the article to say that the territory of this group is "nationwide", based on page 3 an FBI report here. I believe they are misreading the report. Page 2 of the report has a section titled "Copies Made" with a list that begins

 4-Philadelphia 
   (3 - 92-2735)
   (1 - 157-4700)
   (Copies - Cover page A1)

This page is followed by page 3 which is titled "A1" and contains a further list of 33 cities, formatted similarly:

 1-Atlanta
 1-Baltimore
 1-Boston
  etc.

It is clear to me that this list on page 3 is continuation of the "Copies Made" list on page 2, and not a list of places where the group operates. CodeTalker (talk) 18:34, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Please undo edit protection

I have gave you a GOVERNMENT PROVIDED source PROVING they're still around, and yet you still prefer to die by a source of which cannot have possibly lead to their downfall in the first place, since only 30 were arrested of the over 500 members, but is also an outdated source, might I add. Not only that, I gave you a 2nd source and you STILL denied it. Only proves how desperate you are for them to be extinct, for some weird reason. I guarantee youre not a rival gang member, I guarantee you had nothing to do with their case, and I guarantee it is of no importance of you for them to still be around. I don't know if its a control thing, a fear thing, or just plain cultist faith in a single article, but when new info proves their existence, it's time to let the old ones go. So if you're not going to let me add mine, at least undo yours, because nobody likes a false source, but everyone hates an outdated one. Also sorry for the bo part Trappist, I didn't know I did anything with that. not sorry for the years active change though. -n0b0d33sp3c1al

The infobox is not a place for you to make assertions what aren't available in the article. If there has indeed been a revival of the BMF, as opposed to some kind of organization that is somehow using the name, you will need a more in-depth set of sources, and they will need to have been presented in the article, not wedged into the infobox. Infoboxes aren't for that sort of thing. A single press release is not a basis for asserting that the organization exists in any meaningful state, except perhaps in Saint Louis.

Additionally, you will need to gain consensus, here, without the snark and attacks on other editors. Gang articles are prone to lots of enthusiastic edits that have poor sourcing or are based on rumor. Your behavior toward editors who ask that you adhere to Wikipedia standards for sourcing and due emphasis is the issue here. Stop making assumptions about the motivations of other editors, and go find sources that substantiate more than a single incident in one place. This was supposed to have been a national outfit. Show us a national outfit, not just some possible remnant trading on the name. Acroterion (talk) 22:40, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

1. Sorry for sounding like I'm snarking and attacking. You just seem to be protective. 2. Before I show you the other sources, some of which are evidence they may have never fallen, let me read the website name, title, and 3 pieces of the source.

+Website name: United States Attorney's Office- Eastern District of Missouri @ justice.gov

+Title: More than 2 Dozen arrested in Roundup of Members and Associates of the Black Mafia Family.

+Piece 1- More than 2 dozen people were arrested this week in connection with Charges including drug trafficking and financial crime, U.S. Attorney Sayler A. Fleming said Thursday.

+Piece 2- In detention hearings Thursday, prosecutors described the arrestees as Members or Associates of the Black mafia family

+Piece 3- A motion seeking to have 1 of the defendants jailed until BMF holds itself out as a drug trafficking and money laundering organization distributing large quantities of Narcotics in the St Louis area and elsewhere. One of the defendants, Chad Brown, calls himself the "Junior Boss" of the BMF, another detention motion says, and has discussed drug trafficking by the BMF on various social media platforms.

End of analysis

Now to show you other sources proving their existence

• Source 1(same event, but with specific number of arrestees)-
• Website name- msn.com
• Title- 34 Individuals linked to BMF charged in suspected drug ring in St Louis

+Link- https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/34-individuals-linked-to-bmf-charged-in-suspected-drug-ring-in-st-louis/ar-AA1iA3BQ

• Source 2(Detroit 2010)-

+Website name- streetgangs.com

+Title- 23 Gang Members arrested in Crackdown

+Link- https://www.streetgangs.com/news/012710_23gangmembers/

• Source 3-(St Louis 2019, article made 2023)

+website name- the gangster report

+Title: The St Louis BMF murders: drug hits put out by cuffy gatling landed him in prison, not big meech's cooperation

+Link-https://gangsterreport.com/the-st-louis-bmf-murders-drug-hits-put-out-by-cuffy-gatling-landed-him-in-prison-not-big-meechs-alleged-cooperation/

• Source 4(Detroit 2016)-

+Website Name: the gangster report

+Title- Is BMF gang bouncing back? Recent slayings in Gang's hometown of Detroit has street talk of syndicate's renewed presence

+Link- https://gangsterreport.com/is-bmf-bouncing-back-recent-slaying-in-super-gangs-hometown-of-detroit-has-street-talki

ng-of-syndicates-renewed-presenc

• Source 5(los Angeles, Missouri & Georgia 2007)
• Source 5(los Angeles, Missouri & Georgia 2007)

+Website name- dea.gov

+Title- Members of Campanella park bloods and Black Mafia Family charged with drug trafficking Conspiracy as part of Operation Crimson Vex- Arrests in los Angeles, Missouri and Georgia

+Link-https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/divisions/la/2007/la110707p.html

• Source 6(same event as source 3, so 2019)

+Website name- United States Attorneys office-Easter District Of Missouri

+Title- Drug Ring Leader Sentenced to 27 Years in Prison for Drugs and Murders

+Link- https://www.justice.gov/usao-edmo/pr/drug-ring-leader-sentenced-27-years-prison-drugs-and-murders

• Source 7(unknown 2023)

+Website name- 103weup.com

+Title- Over 30 people with Alleged ties to BMF arrested for drug trafficking

+Link-https://103weup.com/2023/10/24/over-30-people-with-alleged-ties-to-bmf-arrested-for-drug-trafficking/#

End of essay

Now since it seems to be editable, I will be editing it back. Hope this is enough. Thank you. N0b0d33sp3c1al (talk) 20:43, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

• Several of those sources aren't RS's. The DEA document is about indictments that happened in 2007. That doesn't mean the offenses were committed in 2007. the DOJ document never mentions BMF. The MSN source is pretty dubious. The 103 source says they "have ties" to BMF, not are members of it. In other words, they may have been members before and started doing their own thing when the org was shut down. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:12, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

  Do you even read the documents, or does your desperation for BMF to be extinct blindly coming nomatter what pussymake you follow 1 singular, outdated source that even in itself couldn't possibly lead to their extinction? The DOJ document literally contains the title "more than two dozen arrested in roundup of members and associates of the BLACK MAFIA FAMILY". Saying it never mentions it either proves your ignorance or proves your desperation for the gang to be extinct, most likely the ladder. I don't have MSN app, and I'm not getting it, so I can't speak for MSN. I really only included it so you have a specific number, and for potential backup. It might be a different incident, which you better hope it's not. And the 103 is the least of your concern when everything else is still proof, especially since the streetgangs.com one not only specifically states being after yours, being in 2010, and specifically states arresting bmf, but not exclusively, but also specifically states having a different number of arrestees than your 2005 arrest, consisting of 23 istead of 30 arrestees, all the more proving being a different incident, and since this is a gang news site, and nobody likes old news, that can only logically conclude they were still around in 2010. And that cuffy Gatling one, that specifically states he operated around 2009-2014, and the gangster report version that proves gatling DTO's ties to BMF through implying suspicion of big meech snitching. And btw, whenever you decide to be skeptical of a government provided source, the most recent st louis incident included "J-Bo", so you can EASILY search it up online. I knew you were a conspiracy theorist the second I saw you don't believe in global warming, the second I saw you're into star wars and the second i heard "say no to political correctness", but not believing government sources, let alone literally distrusting the title, is a new low. Why are you guys so desperate for them to be extinct anyways? Do you just like the name "knock out blow" and "motor city mafia" think you're making Detroit or America look better? Is it that you're desperate for control of a wiki? Do you just not want them to be around? Do you think you can lie them out of existence? Whatever it is, it's not only failing, but Its stupid and wrong. Sorry for sounding rude. It's just you're not only dismissing trust in government provided sources, but you're denying their title, and I can tell you're not even reading them because they ALL literally REVOLVE AROUND BMF in some way. And you're dismissing multiple sources because of trust, and at this point desperate faith, to the point I'm seriously convinced you're crying at the thought of them being around while reciting the title, and only the title because the fact ONLY 30 people of OVER 500+ couldn't possibly lead to the gangs complete fall, especially when you consider dart members, associates and sets (members, associates and sets not accounted for, or otherwise under the radar of the government). Hoover getting arrested didn't stop GDz, felony won't BMF. And the fact the most recent BMF arrests include "J-Bo" prove that it is BMF as not only does the group itself claim to be BMF, but the group included J-Bo, who if im not mistaken, is the guy in the picture over there. In fact, he calls himself the "junior boss(J-Bo, so probably where his name comes from) of said BMF organizations. Oh and on top of all of that, one of the sources literally states the government itself suspects them to still be around, so you being desperate for them to be extinct goes against the what the government says either way. And either way, you openly admitted that the arrest on the DEA one were for 2007, which is after 2005. So either way, you're admitting you're wrong. Not only this, but the MULTIPLE sources proving their existence at MULTIPLE TIMES past your alleged falling, compared to the fact you only have 1 source, and at that only 1 event, let alone one that couldn't have possibly lead to the complete fall of BMF in the first place, and it becomes pretty obvious the logical answer is that they're still around, even if 1 or 2 of the sources don't fit your liking. Again, sorry for being rude, but you need to WAKE UP. N0b0d33sp3c1al (talk) 21:49, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Did I read them? I addressed each one separately, with the exception of the non- RS like gangster report. Ignoring all your bullshit personal attacks, you're missing the point. Let me try to make it more clear. The MLB team in Pittsburg is the Pirates. East Carolina University is the Pirates. The South African Premier Division has a soccer team called the Pirates. Having the same name doesn't mean they are the same team. Now, calm yourself down, and get a consensus for your changes. Next exchange should be without all your personal attacks and nonsense or the discussion will shift to ANI. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  Um, I'm sorry but I don't think you have the right guy. The pirates aren't the point of discussion. Either you're trolling, you've got the wrong guy or something, but you're not talking about the same thing anymore. And no, you really only addressed 3 of them. N0b0d33sp3c1al (talk) 22:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  and sorry for the "attacks", they weren't meant to be it. And rereading your comment, I might understand. And whether or not it CAN be a different organization, it's not, as proven by the involvement of J bo, who is, in fact, the same one as in the picture. And only 30 members were arrested, so even accounting the possibility, chances are it's the same one, they just elected new high ranks. Or communicated with their old one through prison. Search up "east coast crips vs florencia 13" and it'll show you a little video proving the ladders possibility, as one of the f13 high ranks was in prison and ordered a gang war following an incident involving racial slurs, which followed an incident where the crips raided an F13 traphouse. Hell, they could've promoted new high ranks. But With the number of people arrested in your source, one things for sure. They're still around. And again, I can't apologize enough for sounding rude. I'm not trying to be, I guess I just have a habit of sounding that way N0b0d33sp3c1al (talk) 22:48, 30 November 2023 (UTC)