Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 182

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FORUM

There has been a lot of WP:NOTFORUM vio going on here of late. Including a number of experienced editors. I'm curious:

• Do these editors know they are violating policy?
• If so, can they explain themselves please?
• What, if anything, should be done about this? ―Mandruss ☎ 12:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• I think what we maybe seeing is good faith efforts to deal with requests that are not policy compliant themselves. Slatersteven (talk) 12:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Go WP:TROUT them or something </sarcasm>. It’s incredibly unlikely anyone is going to be sanctioned by an admin for anything short of uncivil behavior. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I must have missed when somebody was sanctioned for uncivil behavior without a trip to WP:AE. But I'm not looking for sanctions.

I mean, we sometimes collapse NOTFORUM vios, but that's not really practical when it's interspersed with constructive non-vios every fourth comment. Even if I did that, I'd look like a self-appointed Talk Page Sheriff unless I had help from a few others. There's just too much of it going on, and I know better than to piss off ten experienced editors at the same time. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Yea, that's kind of what I meant, I've never seen anyone sanctioned at AE for NOTFORUM (that wasn't a blatent civility issue as well). I digress though, you kind of highlighted why there's not much we can do. Kcmastrpc (talk) 17:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Tell ya what. I'll start posting on user talk pages and see if that has any beneficial effect. I could use some help with that, by anybody who cares about keeping this page functional. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I am moving discussion of FORUM and BITING to this more relevant thread. Context is an IP apologizing for not knowing how to link to sources. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Appreciate the help with how to link articles Bob, thank you and sorry to others for not linking directly. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 13:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM: not a help desk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

It may be WP:NOTFORUM but its just a small tip in a relevant discussion to help the IP out, its nice to just be helpful sometimes and may encourage them to make an account and be an active participant in the project; WP:NOBITING Artem...^Talk 21:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Best practice here would be to post a note on their user talk page to avoiding BITING and FORUM. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

There was a discussion of this at the policy talk page in the section Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#4. Discussion forums. It appears it is OK to make a brief, related, helpful technical suggestion on the article talk page for the benefit of various editors. Cheers, Bob K31416 (talk) 14:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Recommended biography

Can anyone here recommend a Trump biography? My plan is to read one good biography. Looking at the bibliography, maybe What Were We Thinking, or one by Philip Rucker and Carol Leonnig, Jonathan Karl, Bob Woodward, Jennifer Mercieca, Maggie Haberman, Fred Trump III, ? Other than a historical bias learned from my mother, I have no horse in this race, and am trying to keep an open mind. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

See WP:NOTFORUM Farkle Griffen (talk) 17:05, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Pardon me, Farkle Griffen. I daresay this article comes up short and I'm offering to help. Book sources are an impoverished list given the number of books about the subject. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:12, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Taking my marbles and going home. I settled on Mr. Lozada's What Were We Thinking. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

That's fine, and we appreciate your efforts, but a Wikipedia talk page just isn't the place for this Farkle Griffen (talk) 17:34, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Farkle Griffen I think Susan was inquiring as to the quality (reliable, comprehensive) of high-quality sourcing on the subject for the purposes of editing, which is an important function of talk pages. Perhaps Susan could have rewritten to be clearer as to her intent, but in cases where intent is unclear to us, it's best to assume good faith (which can involve asking an editor for clarification of they believe their comment is on topic).

SusanLesch I don't think What Were We Thinking is a biography in the strictest sense. From my similarly limited familiarity with sourcing on the subject, it seems like biography, particularly pre-presidency, will have to be sourced primarily to biographies 2017 and before such as Trump Revealed.

For a retrospective assessment of the Trump presidency and afterwards, which is necessary for assessing what reliable sources put emphasis on, the best sources I have seen aren't necessarily exclusively about Trump, but have a chapter on broad-strokes of his presidency. For domestic policy for example, see The Presidency and Domestic Policy: Comparing Leadership Styles, FDR to Biden. I'm interested to read The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: A First Historical Assessment, but reading reviews on such a book will be particularly important: as I read themread them (books) I'll create stubs for them to share findings with other editors like I have with Cocoa and Unsavory Truth. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:01, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:09, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

That's a fair point. Farkle Griffen (talk) 20:11, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Farkle Griffen, sorry for the misunderstanding. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Questions for you, Rollinginhisgrave. First, the book sources seemed to be slim pickings given the number of books about Trump. I appreciate the work that editors have done using Kranish & Fisher, which does appear to have been helpful. I am comfortable with Leonnig, Woodward, Haberman, and am interested in Jennifer Mercieca because it looks like she studied Trump's speech patterns. Decided on Lozada because, for one thing, I don't wish to become a scholar of Trump. Lozada is a Pulitzer-winner who was able to sort through the 150 or more books about Trump. I could be mistaken easily, and it would help to have a guide. Don't you agree his perspective would be useful? Is the Zelizer book you mention here a collection of essays/papers? Another good way to get a birds eye view. Sorry I can't invest the time in something like The Presidency and Domestic Policy. One other criterion: if any of the bibliography list is available free on the Internet Archive that would be a selling point. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

SusanLesch The book sources are certainly slim. I expanded the use of Kranish & Fisher a few days ago as a proof of concept in replacing news articles with books, but I will revise. If we're covering the presidency, there's two elements of sources to prioritise: retrospective and academic.

• Haberman is interesting, I haven't read about it. Might be the best for biographical details.
• Mercieca is interesting as well; we're a few years out so might be good to read recent reviews.
• Lozada would be useful to the page, but I think it serves a different purpose to what you identified in your first two sentences.
• Yes, Zelizer is a collection of essays; I'm most looking forward to any introductory material which attempts to synthesise.
• The Presidency and Domestic Policy would probably actually be the easiest, since it is one chapter which is relevant (the one on Trump).

I'm sc(k)eptical much will be available on the Internet Archive; it's been cut down mercilessly recently. If you need access to a source, email me. Hopefully I'll be able to construct an annotated source list over the next few weeks. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm leaning to Haberman because you thought it sounds interesting. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Suggest we don't underestimate the Internet Archive. I went through the first half of the bibliography and found these. Most of the others are available only to persons with print disabilities.

• Never Enough: Donald Trump and the Pursuit of Success
• The case against Trump
• Where's Trump? Find Donald Trump in his race to the White House
• Man Enough? Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, and the Politics of Presidential Masculinity
• The Little Book of Trumpisms
• Trump: A Graphic Biography
• If Only They Didn't Speak English
• Big Agenda: President Trump's Plan to Save America
• Choosing Donald Trump: God, Anger, Hope, and Why Christian Conservatives Supported Him
• In America: Tales from Trump Country
• Trump: Anatomy of a Monstrosity
• Trump This! The Life and Times of Donald Trump, An Unauthorized Biography

-SusanLesch (talk) 17:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this, very helpful. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately our luck ran out after the oldest 50 books. The rest of the list found only:

• in Arabic only: Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House
• audio: Donald Trump v. The United States

So overall I tend to agree with you about the Internet Archive's utility for this project. Maybe something will help. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

54. "Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history."

A brief consideration:

The sentence should clarify who these "historians and scholars" are by identifying the institution that represents them collectively or at least their nationality, per WP:WIKIVOICE, WP:GLOBALIZE, and WP:GLOBAL. We might also consider adding a footnote to mention the historians...

Additionally, the sentence should also specify that this is an assessment of the first presidency, rather than the incoming one, per WP:CRYSTALBALL. Pantarch (talk) 11:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

This is discussed in the body of the article along with links to additional info. Too much detail for the lead. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Better to have many details than inaccurate ones. The sentence make an absolute claim, which is inconsistent with Wikipedia's policies. Whereas, regarding my other point, specifying 'first presidency' requires only two words. Pantarch (talk) 12:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. Trump is in a bit of a unique situation (two non-consecutive terms in a period that is contemporary with Wikipedia). I think this sentence in the lede should be rewritten to clarify that the surveys and assessments so far so far were purely based on his first term as president. That of course can be changed again when there's a new ranking that explicitly considers his second term.

Compare also to the Joe Biden article, where it has been generally considered too early to include the survey rankings until the end of his presidency. I don't think leaving them out here completely is the right way to handle it, but at the very least that part of the lede needs clarification.

If that would be too much detail, I would even argue to remove it from the lede altogether for now until the end of his second term instead of keeping the current wording. 2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B (talk) 18:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree this is an uncited comment and should be removed , but since it is under strict protection that can not be done by anyone outside of a very small group, so it will remain until someone with this ability decides to do it. Washusama (talk) 06:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

If we're removing "uncited comments" from the lead, we're deleting the lead. We cite in the body and summarize the body in the lead. See Donald Trump#Scholarly. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

When his second term starts we can change it to specify that it was his first term being evaluated. Until then, it is blatantly obvious due to the fact that it is the only term he has had. Your assumption that readers are too stupid to understand this is insulting. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

we can change it Am I missing something, or is "After his first term, scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history." sufficiently clear on that point? The first four words were just added the other day, after a discussion which is linked in current consensus item 54, per established process. How could the assessments apply to his second term if they were made after his first term? ―Mandruss ☎ 01:08, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I just think this sentence should just be removed entirely. Master106 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:I just don't like it applies. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I just do not think a bunch of biased historians claiming something way too early is that important or too good for a Wikipedia article. I don't even think opinions should be in the lead to begin with. Master106 (talk) 09:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Everyone is biased, there's no such thing as an "unbiased" person. You are free to review the statement and source/sources provided and say "they're a bunch of left wing partisan hacks and I don't believe them". That doesn't mean the views of people who study history and review historical evidence shouldn't be here. 331dot (talk) 09:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

​I don't think this aligns with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. WP:Reliable sources does draw a distinction between biased and non-biased sources, and Wikipedia:Verifiability includes types of creators (such as political scientists) as a type of source. With biased sources, certain considerations must be made. This all said, the bias, and potentially its impacts, must be verifiable rather than simply asserted. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 09:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I have no problem with biases and opinions being in Wikipedia pages. They are in Wikipedia pages all the time. From reviews of various media to even awards given to people. I only have a problem when they are in the lead and given authority. Like how it is on this article right now. Master106 (talk) 17:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "given authority", but these are scholarly assessments in very reliable sources, and they carry with them whatever authority that implies. It's a significant fact about him that belongs in the lead. Only someone who is ignorant of his character and actions and believes the whitewashing from unreliable sources would doubt these scholarly assessments. The statement is accurate and properly attributed. It's okay. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me)

Those are your opinions. Master106 (talk) 17:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Merge the offices in Trump's infobox?

Here is a new infobox I've designed in my user sandbox.

Proposed infobox. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Donald Trump/Archive 182 Official portrait, 2017 45th & 47th President of the United States Assuming office January 20, 2025 Vice President JD Vance (elect) Succeeding Joe Biden In office January 20, 2017 – January 20, 2021 Vice President Mike Pence Preceded by Barack Obama Succeeded by Joe Biden Personal details Born Donald John Trump (1946-06-14) June 14, 1946 Queens, New York City, U.S. Political party Republican (1987–1999, 2009–2011, 2012–present) Other political affiliations Reform (1999–2001) Democratic (2001–2009) Independent (2011–2012) Spouses Ivana Zelníčková ​ ​ (m. 1977; div. 1990)​ Marla Maples ​ ​ (m. 1993; div. 1999)​ Melania Knauss ​ (m. 2005)​ Children Donald Jr. Ivanka Eric Tiffany Barron Parents Fred Trump (father) Mary Anne Trump (mother) Relatives Trump family Alma mater University of Pennsylvania (BS) Occupation Politician businessman media personality Awards Full list Signature Website Campaign website Presidential library White House archives

WorldMappings (talk) 21:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead

It is natural that a large-scale real estate developer in the industry for decades would face a high number of lawsuits. It is worth mentioning in the body, but not worth mentioning in the lead. In the lead, the apparent purpose of this sentence is to portray Trump as a bad businessman, despite him becoming a billionaire and acquiring some of the most iconic properties in NYC. We already mention his "business failures" in the 1990s and shift to side ventures; I recommend removing the sentence on lawsuits, and then changing "business failures" to "bankruptcies" to be more clear. — Goszei (talk) 17:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Source for any other land developer who has faced this number, and kind of lawsuit please? Slatersteven (talk) 17:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Looking into it, according to [1] close to half of the 4,000 suits were related to his casino, most of which were "suits against gamblers who had credit at Trump-connected casinos and failed to pay their debts". Trump was the plaintiff in these (not the defendant), and won most of them according to the data. Another big chunk, larger than those related to his real estate, was personal injury, which is again expected when running a large number of commercial properties. He had about 600 real estate suits over a period of 40 years. — Goszei (talk) 17:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Not what I asked, and does not support what you said. Slatersteven (talk) 17:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

His involvement in litigation is a key part of Trump's biography. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

From what I posted above, a lot of the suits just seem like the cost of doing business in a litigious industry for 40 years; our article on it, Personal and business legal affairs of Donald Trump, acknowledges that Trump won 92% of the suits. We have a lot in the lead about his later legal problems, but we shouldn't generalize that backwards to his business career. He was much better known for his Atlantic City casino bankruptcies than something like Trump University before 2015. — Goszei (talk) 17:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Before 2015, Trump wasn't publicly known as "that guy who got sued a lot", but as a fairly successful real estate developer who faced high-profile bankruptcies and later built a brand around his name. This is what we should convey to the reader. — Goszei (talk) 18:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I completelly agree with Goszei here, it's a repetition that is misleading, unnecessary, and, even more important, take up space that could be used to describe how his real estate work connects to his rise to power. Goszei explained it to me in another discussion and is not conveyed properly in the current lead. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 18:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

But his dishonesty also helps explain his rise to power. Again we need sources saying this is not unusual, not editors OR. Slatersteven (talk) 18:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

You interpreting that sentence as "Trump gained his wealth through dishonesty" is complete POV and exactly what I am referring to when I said the figure alone misleads readers. As I showed above, the reality is more complex (the vast majority of the suits weren't related to any kind of fraud on Trump's part, and he won 92% of them). — Goszei (talk) 19:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. That should definitely go. The whole business part of the lead is full of useless trivia. Riposte97 (talk) 22:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

We have a whole page on it: Business career of Donald Trump. It is only appropriate for it to be at least a sentence in the lead of his bio. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

We should include details on his business career insofar as it explains to readers how Trump became rich ("building and renovating skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses") and became a household name (licensing his name and hosting The Apprentice), which are directly relevant to his rise to political power. Mentioning the number of lawsuits he had is not relevant to this purpose. — Goszei (talk) 01:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree this sentence in the lead should be removed. Basil the Bat Lord (talk) 05:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

When I talk about an edit, I am implying by default it coming from RS.

I just think that the connection between him building businnes in NY and his rise to power should be made more explicit, in the case that it is supported by RS. Just talking about golf courses and hotel doesn't make it clear enough. And the number of lawsuits further make it more misleading because it seems like he went to politics because he was poor and failing. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Hadn't noticed this discussion — two days after the election, all hell breaking loose in the article and on this talk page. Trump's business failures, including the bankruptcies, are a defining part of his biography and lead-worthy. Since you mentioned casinos and gamblers: it's not a sign of great business acumen when you build a casino next door to your own casino and poach patrons from yourself or when you give credit to patrons so that they gamble with our own money. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

when you give credit to patrons so that they gamble with our own money. This is established practice in the gambling industry, anyone who has tried to watch a sporting event recently has been bombarded with 'free bet' ads. The calculation being that most people are losers and getting them in the door is more valuable to the casino/sportsbook than the value of the credit/'free bet'. Regardless, declaring a casino or other business bankrupt isn't that relevant to the article that it should have multiple lines in the lead of an article about a two-term president. We can surely summarise that business failure/bankruptcies content in one line. NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 11:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

To the uninitiated reader, this sentence suggests that Trump by the time of his first presidential run was a failed businessman who was absolutely drowning in lawsuits. However, a good chunk of Trump's popularity in 2016 came from the widespread view that he was a successful real estate mogul, and an icon of the "glory days" of American capitalism in the 1980s. The truth of course is more nuanced (we have many, many words in the article on questions about his true net worth, for example), and I understand the impulse to hint that his business career wasn't as spotless as people perceived, but this specific fact just misleads the reader. We don't even mention his billionaire status in the lead, or have a few words about his changing political affiliations, both of which are far more relevant to understanding his "pitch" to the American public and rise. — Goszei (talk) 03:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, Goszei is right. The current formulation is misleading. It is also inderectly suggesting that Trump went to politics because he was failing in business. All of this crucially misses the points of his political rise. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I had not read the current new version of the lead, I did now. It is very good on its shortening on the informations and critiques. I wouldn't cut out anything else at this point.

But it is still missing any kind of information (both contextual and direct) about how and why Trump became popular as a politician. They can all find their place on the second paragraph, a couple of sentences could be enough. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

For exemple, it's a shame that those two diffs [[2]] [[3]] from Goszei didn't stand. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:28, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Trump wasn't a billionaire in the 80s, the article doesn't make that claim, and, if there are any reliable sources for the claim, Goszei should have added the material and the sources to the body. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, thank you for replying. I have actually took the time to read the body and more in Wealth of Donald Trump. It basically looks like he lied in tax returns to downplay his worth, and boosting his net worth to the public to increase his popularity. Before the 2016 election, there are multiple sources that estimate him at around 2-3 billions. It's a complex dinamic of debt and wealth that could be wrote out better in the lead, especially if it relates to his political rise. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 20:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

This is a fair point. The lead has changed a lot (in a positive direction) over the last few days, and I think I am satisfied with just mentioning that Trump "focused on luxury accommodation" (shortened from the previous list of "skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses") because it gets across the personal brand of wealth and luxury that he was well-known for, without treading into the contentious territory about his net worth. — Goszei (talk) 19:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Personally I do not think that the second paragraph is satysfying as is regarding his business aspect. There is something missing to outline how the business relates to his political career. Your latest additions are spot on. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 20:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I mean the connection is there, luxury (mainly in NY?) and a succesfull tv show. But I actually don't know if that's what made him able to launch his campaign, also why the idea of even trying it arose. I hoped to find some analysis of it that at least could lead to a sentence that explains the connection, but maybe there isn't. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 20:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Broader critique of the lead and article

To be honest, I believe content like this in this lead, as well as a continued focus on it within the article, represents us sticking our heads in the sand as editors. We are now far beyond the 2016 election, when points like this were used to attack Trump by his political opponents, and have entered a stage where he is bringing about a generational re-alignment in American politics. This lead, this article, and this encyclopedia should seek to clearly explain why Trump appealed to the electorate in 2016 and why he continues to do so, and explain the roots of his movement, which has only grown over the last 8 years. In many places, we miss the forest for the trees: as many political scientists and historians have concluded, Trump won not because he was racist and his voters were too, but because his message exploited an absence within the political establishment of anyone speaking to the interests of the population. We need to weave his ascendancy together with the facts of 40 years of stagnant wages, the financial crash of 2008, the abandonment of the Rust Belt, and the declining living standards of the working class. I write a lot of this up to WP:RECENTISM, but now that he was elected a second time, it is clear that he isn't an aberration but a key figure in U.S. history, and our encyclopedia should reflect this. Perhaps I am asking too much for the nature of this project, but I think this is important, and hope this article improves along these lines in the years of chaos to come. Rant over. — Goszei (talk)

That clarifies this for me. We are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and we are not (despite what some believe) his political opponents. We are taking a holistic view of Trump's life and career. He received significant coverage going back to the 1970s. We don't stop talking about past events just because of WP:RECENTISM. That includes his lawsuits and business failures, as well as the successes. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

A necessary element of taking a holistic view on someone's life is that the view changes with new events, which open new perspectives on what in their life is relevant and what is not. In the narrow sense of editing this article's lead, in my opinion this means focusing on why he gained power in 2016 and now in 2024 and the bases of his mass movement. To me, wasting words on the comparatively trivial matter of his business lawsuits is not part of that overarching goal. If he was just a businessman, yes, but not for who he has become. — Goszei (talk) 22:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Fair point. I do believe that the political activities from 2015 on need to be rewritten because of the unavoidable RECENTISM. But, any proper biography of Trump will include his business career, which was substantial and covered in the press and has led him to where he is. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

More and more RS on the deeper, long-term socio-economic and political trends which I described above are sure to be released and get added to this article. I only ask that editors keep an open mind and adapt to changing conditions within the RS. Much of this article's trivial content, almost all based on nearsighted and shallow analysis of contemporaneous news coverage, will need to be aggressively cut and replaced by the good stuff. Again, this is RECENTISM and will be fixed over time, hopefully sooner rather than later. — Goszei (talk) 18:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I could not agree more with Goszei. I have been trying to say the same for a few days. Glad I am not the only one noticing the need for improvement. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 21:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Farkle Griffen this and other discussion is where Goszei and others have been trying to argument in favor of a direct addition of the elements you removed from the lead. Goszei found a very concise prose in my opinion, which makes the second paragraph feel more complete and makes the connection to how/why Trump won in the third paragraph. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 23:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

order of sentences on lead

I tried to change the order of sentences on lead, following the logic that would describe his first presidency and comments on third paragraph, and putting informations related to officials trials and such on fourth. There is no perfect "chronological" order either way, and that felt smoother to me, and it avoids mixing together two different kind of facts that are taking different paths (journalistic commentary or judicial system).

@Farkle Griffen why do you feel that the other formulation is better? For other editors, this is the diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=1258711727&oldid=1258705669 Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

description of his political approach on lead

For a few weeks we have been discussing in multiple sections on talk the need to have something that would relate to Trump rise to power. Some editors agreed, some didn't. For me this seems mandatory, since Trump winning the first election is the most notable event of his life and it needs proper context. In my opinion Goszei additions to the second paragraph manage to make that description clear and concise. Editor @Nikkimaria reverted them with explanation "overdetail". I disagree, there is a missing flow in the lead that is filled in by these additions, they are also not overdetailed and the second paragraph has space for them.

Goszei edit:

In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign which gave rise to Trumpism, a political movement characterized by right-wing populism, "America First" nationalism, and economic protectionism.

the reversion by Nikkimaria:

In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign which led to the Trumpism movement.

Also another detail that said "and focused on luxury accommodation" was removed. It helps to define what Trump was known for. Before that the lead went in even more detail with the kind of properties Trump invested in. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I had not noticed that there was already an ongoing discussion for this. Please refer to that one! Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC)