Talk:E. B. Grandin

Inquiry

Please help me out about his birthplace if you know where he was born.

I found it appropriately enough at familysearch.org.--John Foxe (talk) 00:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed text

The following text was removed by User:John Foxe (see diff) and should probably not be restored unless it can be supported by citations. --Eustress (talk) 22:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed text

The Original Grandin Press

The original press used to print the first edition of the Book of Mormon was a Smith Improved Printing Press (also known as the Smith Acorn Press because of the acorn shape of its superstructure). It was invented by Peter Smith (1795-1823) in about 1821 or 1822. Smith owned a carpentry shop (Smith, Hoe and Co.) that specialized in wood products for printers. After his death, his partner, Robert Hoe, took over the company, which continued to be a very successful press manufacturing company up through a good portion of the 20th century. It is not known when E.B. Grandin first bought his Smith printing press, but a reasonable guess would be in mid-March of 1829. About that time Grandin switched to book printing and other printed items. This Smith Press was the latest technology available to the small printer at the time. Grandin began printing the Book of Mormon in late Auguest 1829, and the completed book was on sale in his bookshop in March 1830. After Grandin left the printing business, the original press went through a number of hands. In 10902, Col. Fred W. Clemens saw an ad for it in the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle and purchased it. He offered it for sale to President Joseph F. Smith; and in 1906, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints acquired the press. The Church still owns the original press and it is housed in the Church History Museum in Salt Lake City, Utah. It is still usable today.

There are only three presses made from the original Grandin Press that printed the Book of Mormon. The first one is owned by the LDS Church and is in the Grandin Building in Palmyra, New York. A second is in the Crandall Historical Printing Musemum in Provo, Utah. A third is located in the David O. McKay Library on the campus of Brigham Young University-Idaho in Rexburg, Idaho.

Actually, I saved some of it as a footnote. But Eustress is right; it would be helpful if someone would provide the source of this information.--John Foxe (talk) 22:52, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I found some documentation about the printing press and moved that material into the text. Anything else in this undoucmented "removed text" is footnote fodder at best.--John Foxe (talk) 14:52, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

←I rolled back your recent edits, as you just reinserted all the irrelevant information and POV I removed. Remember that this article is about Grandin and information directly pertaining to him, not the first printing of the BofM. --Eustress (talk) 15:46, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. This article is about Grandin, who is noted only for the first printing the Book of Mormon. Therefore, any relevant discussion about its printing is germane. To remove information as you have done, without discussion, is improper. Please explain any change you would like to make one change at a time.--John Foxe (talk) 15:53, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree, we should discuss first before making such drastic changes to the article. This article is about Grandin, "known for publishing the first order of the Book of Mormon" and information about the printing is relevant. --J.Mundo (talk) 15:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I did offer a rationale for each change in the edit history. I would prefer you pick the edits you disagree with to discuss, but I guess we'll have to do this the inefficient way. (P.S. When you rollback, you can't input an edit summary.) --Eustress (talk) 16:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Good. Item by item is the most sensible way to go. Ultimately, it's also the most efficient.--John Foxe (talk) 18:06, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

My suggestions for improvement

• "He overcame his scruples" is POV and speculative--it's not stated in the source, and we don't know if perhaps he "came to himself" or was convinced in some other way.

Givens, a noted (and gifted) spokesman for the LDS Church, says, "Realizing the work would proceed anyway, Grandin apparently overcame his scruples or his reservations and agreed to publish the work in Palmyra." What's in the article at this moment is pretty close to the source—nearly plagiarism. But I'll be glad to include the "apparently" and some quotation marks.John Foxe (talk) 20:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

 Done Thank you for the clarification. Let's include the entire sentence and put it in quotes. --Eustress (talk) 21:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• "Fulfilling his wife's worst fears," Martin Harris, a well-to-do farmer and early believer in Smith's revelations, mortgaged his farm as security for the costly endeavor,[4] effectively ending his marriage.[5]" Talking about his wife and marriage is just meant to slight the LDS Church. It's irrelevant to this article, and articles must stay on topic without going into unnecessary detail.

Harris financed Grandin's printing by putting up (and losing) his farm and his wife. Whether or not the information "slights the LDS Church" is irrelevant. In fact, everything being equal we should ensure that such an article does not become a piece of Mormon puffery.John Foxe (talk) 20:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you about the irrelevancy of slighting the Mormon Church, and I shouldn't have included that in my argument. But I still think this stuff about Martin Harris is irrelevant to Grandin. It didn't affect him however he got the money. --Eustress (talk) 21:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Here are some things you evidently believe are more important than the Harris's payment or the setting of the manuscript into type: the name of the inventor of the press and his birth and death dates, recent auction prices of first edition BoM copies, the opening date of the shop restoration and the fact that it offers free tours. None of these affected Grandin either. To complain about the former two items, especially after noting that they were unfavorable to the Church, lays you open to the charge of attempting to censor the article.--John Foxe (talk) 23:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I think your point is a logical fallacy, suggesting that this irrelevant information should stay in the article because you purport some other information in the article is also irrelevant. --Eustress (talk) 23:50, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

You drew up the list and might have selected anything in the article you believed to be irrelevant. You chose only two items and then helpfully provided reasons for those particular choices: that in your view, they tended to discredit the LDS Church. Q.E.D.--John Foxe (talk) 14:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

• "The chief compositor, John H. Gilbert, found that the manuscript was "closely written and legible, but not a punctuation mark from beginning to end." Gilbert said that he added punctuation and capitalization in the evenings. Cowdery also set some type.[7]" This has absolutely nothing to do with Grandin. It's trying to discredit the BoM. Belongs on an article about the BoM.

The information discusses turning a handwritten manuscript into a printed book. Whether or not it tends to "discredit the BoM" is irrelevant. The information is pertinent to the printing done by Grandin's shop.John Foxe (talk) 20:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I still think this part goes into unnecessary detail. --Eustress (talk) 21:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

See comments above.--John Foxe (talk) 23:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• I think "Grandin Print Shop" should at least appear in the subheading, as it is a historical landmark and was used for printing other than the BoM

OK. How about something like "Grandin Print Shop and the first publication of the Book of Mormon"?John Foxe (talk) 20:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

 Done That sounds good. Thanks. --Eustress (talk) 21:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

There is some disagreement with regards to the removal of this text. Thanks for your consideration. --Eustress (talk) 16:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

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