Talk:John Barbirolli

Comment

The main article dates Barbirroli's New York tenure as 1937-42 but several other sources (e.g. www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/NYPO.htm] give it as 1936-41. Do you have any references for the later dates?

It seems to be a little complicated: [1] The news of Barbirolli's appointment as Toscanini's successor in late 1936, only weeks after Barbirolli had taken up a temporary appointment with the orchestra as guest-conductor, shook the music world... the 1937-38 season was Barbirolli's first full season with the orchestra. and On 6th and 7th March 1942, Barbirolli gave his last pair of Saturday/Sunday concerts in the 1941-42 Philharmonic Season (his last season as permanent conductor). So it seems he was appointed in 36, appeared as a guest conductor and chief conductor designate in 1936, and then was chief conductor from 37-42. Mark¹ 10:58, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks: I'll change the succession box to 37-42 and also the list at New York Philharmonic 69.12.144.158

I've changed the emphasis in the introductory paragraph. It seemed strange to emphasize the London Phiharmonic and London Symphony Orchestras when Barbirolli was never principal conductor of either, while he was principal conductor of the Halle orchestra for a very long time and was also music director of the New York Philharmonic, one of the most prestigious position in the world. I mentioned first Barbirolli's long ties to the Halle Orchestra and NYPO before including the LSO and LPO among the other orchestras Barbirolli conducted. I also added material about the music with which Barbirolli is most associated. Grover cleveland 08:11, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Television show

An editor has added this: "Barbirolli was the subject of This Is Your Life in January 1957, in the programme's very first outside broadcast, when he was surprised by Eamonn Andrews at the BBC's Dickenson Road Studios in Manchester." I think perhaps this may be notable for the article about the TV show but is not notable so far as Barbirolli is concerned. What do other users think? Tim riley (talk) 08:20, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Ancestry?

I was curious to find out a little more about where his family came from. A rapid google indicates that his father came from Venice. MistyMorn (talk) 17:10, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I gather that with any undisciplined Italian orchestras JB would let them have it good and proper in his most raucous Venetian. They thought they were getting a verray parfit gentil knight and found instead that it was a case of Mad Doge and Englishman. Tim riley (talk) 18:32, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

That's priceless, Tim! MistyMorn (talk) 19:09, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

"This is your Life" may or may not be marginal. but perhaps Barbirolli and the Halle's appearances on the then new commercial TV Granada station in the late fifties should be remembered, at least as evidence for the short-lived attempt of British ITV to come to terms with high culture.Delahays (talk) 11:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

TFAR notification for John Barbirolli

I've nominated this WP:FA quality page for "Today's Featured Article" consideration, nomination is at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/John Barbirolli. — Cirt (talk) 00:20, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Additional relevant free-use images at Wikimedia Commons

Additional relevant free-use images at Wikimedia Commons -- if anyone's interested, see commons:Category:John Barbirolli.

Cheers,

— Cirt (talk) 00:32, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I've replaced the tightly cropped front image by a wider version. In particular, it shows that Barbirolli smoke. Materialscientist (talk) 00:11, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

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Infobox

The vast majority of biographical articles on Wikipedia now have infoboxes. I see no reason for the removal of one from this article other than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. They are especially necessary on British biographical articles now that consensus has held that postnoms should be removed from the first line, as they are now the only place to record this vital piece of information. I have to say that I too once disliked infoboxes, but I am now a convert as to their usefulness. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:32, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I have within the last few days written two brand new articles and have included info-boxes in both of them. I'm a firm fan of i-boxes where they can contain useful information, but that isn't always the case. If your contention is that all Wikipedia articles should contain i-boxes you should propose a change to Wikipedia policy in the appropriate forum. Tim riley talk 14:37, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

You are demanding that I seek consensus to add an infobox (and accusing me of edit warring, which frankly I find offensive). I am curious as to why you think there needs to be consensus to add an infobox, but not to remove one! Since when did an editor need consensus to add legitimate content? This smacks of WP:OWNERSHIP to me, I'm afraid (...you should not undo their edits without good reason.). I have stated why I believe an infobox is necessary. You have failed to address this issue and merely reverted my edits, thus effectively deleting information (the postnominal letters). -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:08, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Sir John Barbirolli CH FRAM
Barbirolli in 1960
Born	(1899-12-02)2 December 1899 Holborn, London, England
Died	29 July 1970(1970-07-29) (aged 70) London
Occupation	Conductor
Organizations	Hallé orchestra

(edit conflict) The infobox removed was officeholder. I believe that infobox person would be more appropriate because his contributions were broader than that one office, the template is also more modest. How is this? I believe that our MoS is based on an infobox being present that liberates the introduction from things like the honorifics and places of birth and death. Readers who want these details will know exactly where to find them, and other readers are not held up by them in the first sentence. It looks like a useful splitting of tasks to me. Compare the two composers on today's Main page, Siegfried Thiele and Aaron Copland. For Barbirolli, I'd include more orchestras in the infobox, for perspective at a glance. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

G. Arendt: I thought you were banned from intervening about i-boxes because of your bullying. Tim riley talk 15:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

My restrictions were rescinded in 2015. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't at all suggest an established i-box should be blitzed without consensus from a Featured Article, or really from any, on the whole. I took Robert Schumann to FA recently and as it had an i-box when I started overhauling it I was not so presumptuous as to delete it, though I thought (and still think) that it is so pointless as to make Wikipedia look rather silly. As to the present article I think a PR and FAC consensus for an i-box-free text is clear enough. Tim riley talk 15:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Strange that you weren't so presumptuous to delete that, but you were presumptuous enough to delete the ones I added! The Schumann infobox is short enough to be useful without overpowering, as were mine. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:55, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

• I'd oppose an infobox here. Conductors are generally unuitable for them, as it is a pretty peripatetic profession, as hardly any are especially associated with particular works, orchestras, recordings or even cities, though all have thir greatest hits. Thus anything beyond tombstone information runs a strong risk of being misleading, as so many arts biography boxes are. Current readers will only know him through recordings, and though he recorded a lot with The Hallé, the recordings that remain famous and easily available (Mahler 5, Elgar Cello C etc) are I think nearly all with other orchestras. Resist the roving infobox fanatics! Johnbod (talk) 15:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Order, order! "Current readers will only know him through recordings"? I heard JB's Hallé when they visited the Philharmonic Hall in my native Liverpool in the 1960s. But be that as it may, I concur about resisting "the roving infobox fanatics". Tim riley talk 16:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't really mind which infobox it is. But I think the classical music project is completely out of line with the rest of Wikipedia by being so sniffy about infoboxes. They are useful. I agree that some are far too large, but they are very useful for presenting basic information, including the person's correct style and postnominals, full name, dates and places of birth and death and significant posts, at a glance. As I have stated, this has become even more imperative for British and Commonwealth figures in particular after the decision to remove postnominals from the first line. Without an infobox there is nowhere for them to go. Yes, details can appear in the text, but I want to be able to immediately see at a glance what honours an individual has/had. This is now impossible without an infobox and is tantamount to deleting useful information. I would note that this is only the third time that any editor has objected to my addition of an infobox, and two were to do with classical music (the third was an historic building). They really are becoming the norm on Wikipedia and most biographical articles of any length have them. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

You will find such objections are widespread or general in the visual arts, literature too, though of course many articles (for example for individual works) do have them. Johnbod (talk) 14:07, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

And many biographical articles in these fields have them too. But I wonder why there should be objections in these fields and not others? There's no less a need for them and they're no less useful. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:36, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Really? You can't have given the matter much thought then, I would suggest. I set out the basic principles several years ago. Few arts people's careers follow a regular track that can easily or usefully be summarized - conductors included. Few regular arts editors add infoboxes, so this is usually done by drive-by know-nothings, who add misleading info, plus a generous measure of sheer cruft. The minor row in Parliament many years ago over Titian's date of birth, which you may remember, was entirely caused by Gordon Brown picking up wrong info from an infobox - the article text was right. In general, minor arts figures can have a short infobox without too much risk, but the more important the figure, the less suitable for an infobox. As for "They really are becoming the norm on Wikipedia and most biographical articles of any length have them", a recent Rfc proposing they should be made (in effect) compulsory for biographies was very emphatically rejected. You should respect the long-standing Arbcom rulings on this. Johnbod (talk) 19:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

What on earth is the problem with adding basic information to an infobox like the one depicted on this page? Your comments about accuracy could apply to anything on Wikipedia. Your reference to "drive-by know-nothings" frankly beggars belief. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:57, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

You will find that many classical composers have an infobox without objections, others one after clarified objections. It's not a problem of classical music. The scope of discussions I see are a few Featured articles by a few editors. On the Main page: Siegfried Thiele. Today's birthday: Anton Webern. Yesterday's day of death: Aaron Copland. Enjoy the 2020 dialogue on the latter's talk page when someone noticed that he had an infobox without a previous discussion, and Jerome Kohl (who had reverted many infoboxes per project composers 2010 RfC) replied generously: "Gosh! That was three years ago, and there was no objection raised at the time. Still, you have got a good point, with reference to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Composers#Biographical_infoboxes. I would leave this to your discretion." If that attitude found a few more followers we could call the conflict over. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)