Talk:Lateen

Sunfish lateen

The rig on the Sunfish is also called a lateen rig, but differs in that it uses a lower spar as well, giving more control over sail shape than the traditional loose footed lateen sail. In this sense, it's closer to the proas crab claw sail, but the crab claw traditionally has curved spars, and a narrower angle. Anyone want to add a section on the "modern lateen" rig? scot 21:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Changing spar of side to avoid bad tack

For what I have seen in some sailboats with lateen sail (eg. vela latina canaria, one does change the spar from one side to the other when tacking, to avoid the bad tack. The paragraph that talks about this "bad tack" should be changed to reflect this, shouldn't it? I am no expert on this kind of sailboat, only seen it on regattas on T.V., so if another contributor can confirm it we could change the text

MarcCasaldaliga 13 Dec 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcCasaldaliga (talk • contribs) 15:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Origin of term

Our article currently gives the etymology as "from a la trina, meaning triangular", with no cite.

However http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lateen gives a different etymology from 2 reputable dictionaries:

- Origin: 1720–30; < F (voile) latine Latin (sail) ("Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.")
- French (voile) latine, lateen (sail), feminine of latin, Latin (from its use in the Mediterranean), from Old French; see Latin. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition)

I'm going to change our article accordingly; please cite the other etymology if restored to the article. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 18:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Can anyone provide sources for phonetic transmutation where the second phonem of a consonant cluster would disappear instead of the first? Far more plausible transmutation would be la trina > larina (initial T disappearing) > lareen62.237.141.27 (talk) 22:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Use, or advantage

Unless I'm missing it, I don't believe the article really covers what advantages the lateen sail provides. How is it used differently from other kinds of sails? What role did lateen sails play in making Middle Eastern / North African ships better or faster or more maneuverable or whatever than certain European designs?

For those reading about the history of navigation and the cultural exchanges leading to changes in European ship design, navigation technology, etc that allowed for the Voyages of Discovery, this sort of information is at the core - it's absolutely crucial. I'm surprised to not find it here. I'd add it myself, but my sources are rather insufficient. LordAmeth (talk) 05:17, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Lateen sail can rise better to wind than square sail. While the Arabs never invented tacking, the Christians sure did, and it enabled to sail independently of the wind direction. A lateen rigged vessel is more manouevrable than a square rigged. While a Lateen sail is less effective on running than square sail, the square sails come on their own good only on constant winds, such as westerlies or tradewinds. On Mediterranean, where the wind conditions are unstable, the lateen sail revolutionized sailing with tacking.62.237.141.27 (talk) 22:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Good to know. Can you add it to the article? LordAmeth (talk) 18:40, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

(Need references before adding. — Steven G. Johnson (talk) 01:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC))

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Section "Addressing the bad tack"

The whole section (including the heading, and its relation to the content) is completely incomprehensible to a layman and should be rewritten for the benefit of the general encyclopdia reader. --BjKa (talk) 15:00, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Q: Regarding the lateen sail

Doesn't the "tacking against the wind" capability of the lateen sail also require presence of a keelboard (centerboard) or an equivalent? I thought that the effect of running against the wind was a mechanical action of the forces against the sail being transmitted to the ship which was translated by the keelboard (centerboard) into movement in what seems an "unnatural" direction otherwise...? The physics of the situation is clearly understood.
ASSUMING I am correct, this article should make some note of that. It was the combination of the two which was significant, not the sail itself.
Indeed, the wiki entry on the centerboard says much the same thing (emphasis mine):
A centreboard (often called a lifting foil in a modern racing dinghy) is used to provide lift to counter the lateral force from the sails. This is required for sailboats to move in directions other than downwind , since the force of the sail is never closer than 45 degrees to the apparent wind. Since most sailboats are symmetric along their axis of motion, when sailing upright, the lateral force can come from either side, which means that centreboards must use symmetric foil shapes so they will operate with equal efficiency on either tack.
The modern centerboard is credited much more recently than the lateen sail usage, but it seems clear that the first millenium BCE boats must also have been equipped with something similar.
--104.129.204.66 (talk) 21:52, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Origin of the lateen and source quality

Lately, the history section has been much remodelled to give rise again to the hypothesis of an Arab origin of the lateen sail in the Mediterranean and/or Indian Ocean. The claims rest mostly on the case John Hobson, a political scientist, has made in his 2004 book.

The issue is that Hobson is completely unaware of the scholarly discussion that had been going on in the 1990s and 2000s between classicists and maritime archaeologists in the International Journal of Nautical Archaeology and other specialist literature that I have used. In this exchange a lot of new evidence for a Greco-Roman origin is brought forward that the sources on which Hobson relies on (like Brindley (1926) and Houdani (1951)) were unaware of.

While it is correct that this or that piece of late antique archaeological or literary evidence has been disputed by scholars, as lateens are difficult to discern from square rigs in ancient representations and texts, the entire corpus of evidence has grown big enough that the Roman origin has become the accepted view in the specialist community. This view has also been increasingly adopted by scholars of Islamic shipping as we can see in Agius (2008, pp. 212-214).

Given the fact that the earliest corpus of Greco-Roman evidence has been firmly dated to pre-Islamic times (2nd-6th century AD), and that even the oldest occurrences of the lateen after that have always been of Byzantine, not Islamic provenance, I don't see how the Arab hypothesis can ever be revived again. But if it is attempted, or any other theory forwarded, it should be made on the basis of specialists who are aware of and actively discuss the latest state of research (namely the contributions of Basch, Casson, Pomey, Whitewright and the others) to avoid rehashing superseded scholarship and turning in circles. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:15, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Clarity

This article uses really technical sailing terminology which is unfamiliar to the audience of this article.Nithin^talk 02:52, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

"Lateen Sail" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Lateen Sail and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 8 § Lateen Sail until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. An anonymous username, not my real name 22:46, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Lateen vs crabclaw sials in the pacific

The article claims that arab use of lateen sails in the 1300s gave rise to similar Crabclaw sails in the pacific, yet pacific culture's used crabclaw sails to populate polynesia over 3000years earlier and crabclaw sails had an earlier, idependant origin (as per wikipedia's page on crabclaw sails) 222.154.244.225 (talk) 08:22, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

No, the article merely reports the suggestion that the crab claw sail might have been developed after early encounters with Arab or European vessels with lateen sails.

What is needed in the article are (a) mention of the other hypotheses on when the crab claw sail originated (b) an explanation that there is no hard and fast evidence to favour any particular hypothesis.

Where the crab claw sail article fails is in making a simple categorical statement on the date of origin of the crab claw sail, as if it were proven and that there were no competing ideas. Interestingly, the source cited to support that (Horridge 2006) is contradicted by a later publication by Horridge that suggests the crab claw sail has origins with the earlier (presumably negrito) seafarers (see Horridge's chapter Origins and Relationships of Pacific Canoes and Rigs in Canoes of the Grand Ocean edited by Anne Di Piazza and Erik Pearthree publ 2008, ISBN 978 1 4073 0289 8. Here you see Horridge say (about early triangular sails in Island Southeast Asia} "Probably this was not an Austronesian invention, but it was an early solution to the problem of raising a heavy, wet and therefore weak mat sail on a raft.")

Any article needs to be careful with old sources on this subject. Crab claw sail uses Hourani (1951). This source is still used as a reference by scholars in the field for some facts, but not for his opinions on the origin of lateen rig. This is because he has been superseded by later study by historians and archaeologists on this point. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 09:44, 6 July 2023 (UTC)