Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Synagogue shooting

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep & Rename to List of synagogue shootings. I'm going to strip out the WP:DAB boilerplate. There's clear consensus that this should continue to exist in some form, even if there's not a clear consensus on exactly what that form is. The rename looks like it's the most popular option, so that's what I'm going to do. People can continue to discuss other possible names and/or reorganizations on the list talk page. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:26, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Synagogue shooting

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"Synagogue shooting" is neither a valid topic for an article nor a valid disambiguation page. Bus stop (talk) 13:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 14:32, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 14:32, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, but rename to List of synagogue shooting (or perhaps - a more widely scoped attacks). Meets WP:CSC. Icewhiz (talk) 14:46, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- list of synagogue shootings (should be plural) would be fine, or could be directed to a more widely scoped name that would include the 2 non-synagogues, but I don't know how to phrase that. What noun enscapsulates synagogues and community centers? "Jewish places of worship"? Ash Carol (talk) 19:13, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, shootings, plural. I personally would support a rescope to List of attacks at Jewish community buildings (to catch community centers, yeshivas, and other Jewish community buildings that are not synagogues, as well as widen from just shootings) - but that's really an article discussion and not an AfD discussion). Icewhiz (talk) 09:46, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - I agree that "List of attacks at Jewish community buildings" would be a good title. Bus stop (talk) 13:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to Keep per WP:NOTDUP, thank you. "Synagogue shooting" is a phrase used around the world since the Pittsburgh shooting, and I can find coverage of incidents using this term going back to 1981. (Sorry - attempts to strike my first vote and rationale through end up striking through the whole rest of the page!) RebeccaGreen (talk) 06:51, 13 November 2018 (UTC) I was going to say Keep as a List of synagogue shootings - but then there should also be Lists of Church Shootings, Mosque Shootings, and Temple Shootings not to mention Synagogue, Church, Mosque and Temple bombings. Then I discovered there is already a Category:Massacres in places of worship, which would bring up all shooting mass murders in synagogues tagged with that category. RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:27, 11 November 2018 (UTC) Category:Massacres in places of worship.[reply]

@RebeccaGreen:, per WP:NOTDUP - the existence of a category is not duplicative with a list - this guideline specifically says that "arguing that a category duplicates a list (or vice versa) at a deletion discussion is not a valid reason for deletion and should be avoided.". Icewhiz (talk) 15:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Feel free to make those other lists. Categories simply alphabetize, they cannot provide useful information like the years they happened like disambiguation pages or lists can. Ash Carol (talk) 19:11, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, I created the disambiguation. Ash Carol (talk) 19:15, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but convert to a List of synagogue shootings.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:56, 11 November 2018 (UTC) On closer examination, I think delete. Fact is that the phrase "synagogue shooting" has not been sufficiently applied to other incidents to make a disambig necessary.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:24, 12 November 2018 (UTC). Withdraw.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:41, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as nominator. "Synagogue shooting" does not constitute a valid article topic. The article presently has no sources supporting the existence of that topic. Just because an editor makes up a fictitious scope for an article does not mean that topic is valid for an article. In fact this so-called article is not even about its topic area suggested in its title. The article says nothing about synagogue shootings. Nothing—not an iota. We don't just concoct articles to suit our fancy. You can know this is gibberish because you can ask yourself—what is a synagogue shooting? The answer is that it is the mere putting together of a "shooting" with a "synagogue". The title of this article implies the simplistic joining of two obvious factors. No sources are in the article addressing or supporting the simplistic joining of "shooting" with "synagogue". Nor are there any sentences in the article addressing this made up subject. An article has to make assertions. No assertions are made in this article. Bus stop (talk) 13:52, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nom, it's not an article. It' a list. Look at List of attacks against African-American churches, List of attacks attributed to the LTTE, 2000s, and many similar. Ordinary, useful type of list.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:01, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is not a list. It is an ordinary article with a title Synagogue shooting. Is its title List of synagogue shootings? No, it is not. Bus stop (talk) 18:17, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And yet it would be simple to make it into a list, and more than one editor has proposed doing so.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:24, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Ash Carol: Would you be willing to to convert the article into a List of synagogue shootings? Such lists can take a variety of formats, some very simple to create, see, for example: [[ List of garden squares in London]], List of terrorist incidents in the Netherlands, List of terrorist incidents in London, List of gardens in Italy, List of terrorist incidents in 2018, List of John Kasich presidential campaign endorsements, 2016.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:24, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I would do it right now but I don't know if you're supposed to move pages during a deletion discussion. Ash Carol (talk) 05:06, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:NOTNEWS. Wikipedia is not a look-up service for synagogue shootings, or for attacks in any house of worship. And why stop at shootings? What about firebombings? Yoninah (talk) 19:33, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I suppose if you have articles about firebombings you want to link to, sure. Is there a category associated with them? For some reason when I search Wikipedia+Jewish+Firebombing it points me to articles about Dresden/Japan/Duma/Hamburg, not sure why, so I don't know where to look. Presently this list has 5+2=7. Ash Carol (talk) 05:09, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Yoninah (talk) 21:18, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to List of synagogue shootings, which is what it is. Debresser (talk) 22:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
~~Delete~~ Keep only if it is converted to a standalone list. It appears that Ash Carol didn't understand what they created. As it stands ("Synagogue shooting"), it doesn't qualify as a disambiguation based on the way it's being implemented, and it's obviously not a notable subject. But unless someone can convince me otherwise, I don't see why it shouldn't simply be a standalone list and be renamed List of synagogue shootings (plural). Also, if you want widen the scope for it to include all synagogues and other organized Jewish places (JCCs, Jewish schools, etc.), then rename it to something that encompasses all of them. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 04:27, 13 November 2018 (UTC) 13:56, 13 November 2018 (UTC) Withdrawn. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 19:12, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as list, renaming appropriately. PamD 14:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why not just delete it? What is so difficult? It isn't anything. It isn't a disambiguation page. It isn't a list. And it isn't a regular article, meaning an article that is not a list. It contains no sources. It contains no sentences. It makes no assertions. After it is deleted a list can be created called "List of synagogue attacks" or "List of attacks on Jewish institutions". Bus stop (talk) 19:43, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:ATD, we generally prefer alternatives to deletion when they are available. Conversion of this list like article to a list only requires a rename.Icewhiz (talk) 20:33, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is anybody interested in this entity? There are only 7 articles linked-to in this pseudo-list. It is not as if a lot of work went into this entity. If anybody is interested in this hodgepodge of a page, just make a note of the 7 articles that are in it. And create something new from scratch. Yes, "we generally prefer alternatives to deletion", but I think that refers to an article that has undergone a more full development than this. We also have another essay that says blow it up and start over. (Different philosophies.) If I were interested in this article, I would be enthusiastic about starting over and doing it right the next time. These are only electrons. No trees need to be cut down. Sheesh. Bus stop (talk) 20:52, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Bus stop. These articles are already listed at Category:Massacres in places of worship. We do not need a list-article for what's already in a category. Yoninah (talk) 20:56, 13 November --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:15, 14 November 2018 (UTC)2018 (UTC)[reply]

The WP:NOTDUP guideline says otherwise.Icewhiz (talk) 21:03, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep & move to List of synagogue shootings; a valid list article. Also per WP:NOTDUP. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:15, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as list per Icewhiz and Coffman. It's the procedure in line with policy here.--Calthinus (talk) 05:58, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And title the list what? Bus stop (talk) 06:44, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Calthinus said "per Icewhiz and Coffman" (List of synagogue shootings). Are you absolutely opposed to that option? If so, I'd like to know why because I agree with them. Am I missing something that should disqualify it from being converted to a list? 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 15:18, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, as the IP also stated, I said per Icewhiz and Coffman. Right above, you see Coffman saying List of synagogue shootings. I'm clumsy and miss things like this too sometimes, it's cool :). --Calthinus (talk) 15:58, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for confirming my interpretation of what you said. On an unrelated note... you may be "clumsy", but I see you've been editing since 2006 and have never been blocked. That's very impressive. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 16:12, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, thanks :)! Though probably it would be better if that was not impressive haha, it would be nice if people would get along and didn't have to be blocked. --Calthinus (talk) 16:19, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Are you absolutely opposed to that option? If so, I'd like to know why because I agree with them. Am I missing something...? I think we should keep it broad such as "List of attacks on Jewish institutions" or "List of attacks at Jewish community buildings". A broader scope makes it more useful for the reader. These are related institutions and related means of attack. A "shooting" at a Jewish house of worship clearly is of similar significance as a "firebombing" at a Jewish community center. Bus stop (talk) 16:22, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bus stop this is a good idea, actually. I missed it above. I support List of attacks on Jewish community buildings. --Calthinus (talk) 16:26, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Makes a good deal of sense. Category:21st-century attacks on synagogues and Jewish communal organizations in the United States is a good place to start. However, given the number of incidents in the presumably incomplete categories Category:20th-century attacks on synagogues and Jewish communal organizations and Category:21st-century attacks on synagogues and Jewish communal organizations, we may want want to narrow this to List of attacks at Jewish community buildings in the United States. Leaving all of the incidents in the vast and incomplete Category:Antisemitic attacks and incidents out of this particular list.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:48, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as List of attacks at Jewish institutions or List of attacks at Jewish institutions in the United States. Alternately, I would support List of attacks at Jewish places or List of attacks at Jewish places in the United States. I definitely do not like List of attacks at Jewish community buildings or List of attacks at Jewish community buildings in the United States because the term "Jewish community buildings" would definitely be confused with Jewish Community Centers; many readers would therefore assume it's only about attacks on JCCs, which is just one of the multiple Jewish places that of course would be encompassed in whatever title is agreed upon. Okay, Bus stop, so you are actually supportive of converting this to a list. Unless I missed it, I didn't see you express support for this idea previously. And yes, a broader scope... thus the reason I said in my !vote: "Also, if you want widen the scope for it to include all synagogues and other organized Jewish places (JCCs, Jewish schools, etc.), then rename it to something that encompasses all of them." 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 18:54, 14 November 2018 (UTC) 19:10, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as a [[List of ~~attacks at Jewish community buildings in the United States]].~~E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:48, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, narrowing it geographically makes sense. "List of attacks at Jewish community buildings in the United States" makes sense to me. Bus stop (talk) 17:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No one would think of looking for a synagogue under "Jewish community buildings". Yoninah (talk) 19:00, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree with Yoninah; the term "Jewish community buildings" is a bad fit. It's awkward terminology when used to refer to synagogues and even Jewish schools. What's most problematic is that "Jewish community building" would certainly be confused with Jewish Community Center, causing readers to wonder if it's solely about attacks at JCCs. They just sound way too much alike. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 19:22, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How about "List of attacks on Jewish institutions in the United States"? Bus stop (talk) 19:51, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. "List of attacks on Jewish institutions in the United States" sounds reasonable, and easier to include such notorious attacks as as the 1977 Washington, D.C. attack and hostage taking, an antisemitic attack on B'nai B'rith headquarters in a downtown office building.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:03, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Yes, as I said in my !vote, I would fully support "List of attacks at Jewish institutions in the United States". The only difference is I have "at" and you changed to "on". 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 04:26, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so it looks like we are making progress and yes, you said it first with only the relatively minor distinction between the word "on" and the word "at". So in recapitulation we have:

"List of attacks on Jewish institutions in the United States"

"List of attacks at Jewish institutions in the United States"

I'm OK with either one. Bus stop (talk) 14:38, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with whatever everyone decides. Maybe if we look at a few existing articles, it will help us to determine if "on" or "at" is better. For example, with the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting, would you say it was an attack on Tree of Life synagogue or an attack at Tree of Life synagogue? Or, with Los Angeles Jewish Community Center shooting, was it an attack on the LA JCC or an attack at the LA JCC? Which one feels more right and seems to make more sense when you say it? 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 15:52, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep but the article may be better of as a list than a disambig. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:40, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Piotrus—would you support keeping this page as "List of attacks on/at Jewish institutions in the United States"? Bus stop (talk) 14:44, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:34, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Hmmm,)Support keeping this page as a List of synagogue shootings; with no bar to the creation by a willing editor of a List of attacks on Jewish institutions in the United States.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:00, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I am still alive. brew crewer (yada, yada) 15:55, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, the article contains non US links and non synagogue links so should be renamed List of attacks on Jewish institutions, a redirect should be created to point List of synagogue shootings to the more general article. Szzuk (talk) 14:42, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

a List of synagogue shootings is a discrete topic. although even here we might to limit it by date, say, post-WWII. But a List of attacks on Jewish institutions would start where? with the Babylonian conquest and destruction of the First Temple? Lists need to be delimited. User:Szzuk.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:36, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point, how about List of shootings at Jewish institutions? Szzuk (talk) 17:20, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A good title might be "List of attacks on Jewish institutions in the United States post World War II". Bus stop (talk) 17:30, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Or all of us can just change our !vote to DELETE and put an end to this unnecessary, never-ending mess. Everyone's tried so hard to rescue this... whatever it is: article, disamgibuation page, list, category, take your pick... but new problems keep popping up. So should we just put it out of its misery? If not, then I'd say List of post-World War II attacks on Jewish institutions in the United States would be the best option. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 18:29, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Mass shootings, topic Mass shootings are notable events. Tragically, Category:School shootings has multiple sub-categories, including Category:School shootings committed by adults, and Category:Elementary school shootings in the United States. I see no particular reason why we cannot add a List of attacks on Jewish institutions in the United States, a List of attacks on Jewish institutions post World War II or a List of mass shootings at Jewish institutions post World War II to our many Category:Crime-related lists, including List of school-related attacks. We could usefully add lists of attacks on mosques and on churches, (the number of recent attacks on Shia mosques by radical Sunni Islamists is large.) We already have Category:Islamist attacks on churches.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:51, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anything but a relist is my vote! Szzuk (talk) 19:00, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

List of synagogue shootings is what the page is as it now stands, and it seems to have consensus support.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:53, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

created List of attacks on Jewish institutions in the United States in an effort to help resolve this discussion.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:51, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.