Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

National League Cup in stats tables

Despite being a 'league' cup, this tournament is for non-league teams in England. Do we count it in stats tables as 'League cup' or 'other'? GiantSnowman 13:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

It's the "league cup" for that league so I would say putting it under "league cup" is apt. Unless the consensus is that the "league cup" column is for the EFL Cup and nothing else.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:38, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I would say it's a League Cup. I would just use an Efn note or similar with the name of the competition as a note. RedPatch (talk) 14:37, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree with above. It's "league cup", not "elite league cup", so it can include anything lower such as the National League Cup or Spain's Copa Federación. Agree with a footnote saying which competition it is. Unknown Temptation (talk) 18:51, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

the competition also added PL youth teams like the efl trophy, so those appearances would count for those players. they for sure would need a note then, as they could play in the league cup for man u, then the national league cup for man u u23.Muur (talk) 02:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Gali Freitas age

I first noticed this player just today when I noticed his age being fixed on 2024 ASEAN Championship squads page. The player was involved in alleged age controversy a few years ago (see his page and 2019 AFF U-15 Championship for details). Per some of the sources linked in the latter article, he was cleared of any wrongdoing and deemed eligible (e.g. being born in 2004), but many of the external links on player's page show his YOB as 1996. [1] [2] So which date is correct? --BlameRuiner (talk) 08:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi @BlameRuiner,

I have roughly followed football in Timor for a while and have come across this too in the past. My gut feeling is that the current DoB (Born in 2004) is correct. His current squad PSIS lists that as his birthdate on their club website [3] and given that he was cleared of any wrongdoing I assume the initial accusations came to nothing.[4][5] I would consider those to be more accurate than the two websites you provided, which I've found to be somewhat inaccurate when keeping up with football in small nations like Timor.

That being said, I haven't ever found anything definitive that 100% confirms his age. To be honest, I'm not sure if any source exists. The original controversy started from his debut with the national team back in 2018 where he was listed as born in 1996 on the team sheet (Likely the date where the two references you provided got their DoB from). If he was born in 2004 that would mean that he made his national team debut at 13! I found two other players listed here as debuing at 15 as the youngest in the nations history: Anggisu Barbosa#:~:text=He is the second youngest,15 years and 172 days. As the national team was struggling at the time though, I feel like this may actually be believable.

Either way, I think the 2004 birth day is what most current sources say, so I'd consider it the most accurate to include. DomToblerone27 (talk) 06:59, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps Transfermarkt has the right idea: "Date of birth is 31 December 1996 or 31 December 2004" [6] :P DomToblerone27 (talk) 07:21, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Transfermarkt is not a reliable source. GiantSnowman 11:45, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Given that the investigation in 2019 concluded that he was eligible to play U-15 and was not 22 at the time, listing 2002 as year of birth seems the only sensible option to me. We can add a hatnote about 1996 date if needed, but 2004 seems like correct date. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: I think in this case Dom meant specifically how it's formatted. Date1 or Date 2, without picking one specific one. --BlameRuiner (talk) 12:25, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree Transfermarkt isn't reliable. However, to the same degree neither is NationalFootballTeams.com or Worldfootball.net. I was more pointing out that in all of these reference databases there doesn't appear to be any definitive consensus, to the point where some of these websites list two dates.

I agree that 2004 seems most likely to be correct though. DomToblerone27 (talk) 22:08, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

• If we don't have a reliable source for his DOB, it cannot be included in the article. Black Kite (talk) 22:17, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

In Southeast Asia, we all know that he was cheated a few ages, but however there has never been enough evidence for this despite several complaints from other Federations. The Asian Football Confederation had always recognized his birthday as 31 December 2004. Last year he appeared with East Timor national under-23 football team at the 2024 AFC U-23 Asian Cup qualification without any problem. The official website of the Indonesian Liga I also states Gali Freitas as 20 years old here. Lâm (talk) 06:25, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

International caps in club season article

Is this a thing? Saw an "international caps" section in the current Brentford season article. Or should it be removed? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 17:47, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Should be removed, trivia for me. Kante4 (talk) 17:51, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

That's not an element of the club's season, I would definitely remove it -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:59, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, remove it. GiantSnowman 18:31, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Also agreed. International callups that affect the team's season are worth mentioning in prose summaries, though. SounderBruce 21:07, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Ruben Amorim

Hi, could someone please consider reverting this edit at Ruben Amorim (I'm on three reverts). They insist on removing the references for Amorim's previous clubs as apparently "the matches referred to already obsolete"(?), and in this revert restored the goals for and against data (which seems excessive and is not normally included in these tables) and a new reference for the Manchester United data (https://mufcinfo.com/), which doesn't appear to be a reliable source. Thanks. Mattythewhite (talk) 18:46, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

 Done. GiantSnowman 18:53, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Steve Holland (footballer)

Have a couple of editors who would like to lean on "other stuff exists" regarding including Holland's assistant roles in his infobox. Any assistance would be appreciated. Seasider53 (talk) 12:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Removed the assistant ones per discussion(s). Kante4 (talk) 12:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Assistant roles should not be there, but I have no issues with his position as Chelsea Reserve manager. GiantSnowman 19:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Two Brazilian footballers

Help from Wikiproject Unreferenced Articles! There are a couple of Brazilian footballer stubs that I've just come across in my monitoring of unreferenced BLPs. I am struggling a bit to find decent sources for them other than stats and listing sites, but from those sites and to my untutored eye they look as though they might be notable enough, so I didn't want to AfD them. I wondered if anyone in this project might be able to help. They are:

• Roma (footballer, born 1985)
• Oziel (footballer)

Thanks in advance

P.S. if the project has any tips on solid stats sites to include in External links for footballers, I'd be all ears. There are so many and I don't know which are more reliable. Cheers, SunloungerFrog (talk) 15:01, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Soccerway is a solid stats site to use. If you cannot find any detailed sources (and I haven't looked), then the player might not be notable. GiantSnowman 19:54, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Roma appears to be non-notable as the pinnacle of his career was making 6 appearances (4 of them as a substitute) in the Portuguese top division for Beira-Mar. Oziel is notable, having played regularly for Ceará in the Brasileiro Série A. Jogurney (talk) 04:57, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Oziel has some sourcing available at the Portuguese wikipedia entry. RedPatch (talk) 14:27, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Citations wanted - potential entries for List of footballers killed during World War II

Reposted and updated version of original now archived.

As main contributor to this article, I flag up for attention of others on the project a number of candidates for the list that are already wiki-articled and known or believed to have been killed in or died as a result of circumstances brought on by the war (eg execution, in enemy captivity, effects of wounds etc) but which so far lack a reliable citation regarding their death which is preconditional to inclusion in the list. A few have no death circumstances described in the text of their article but I note have been put on category lists that suggest someone knew/believed they died in wartime circumstances. I also include those whose death circumstances are disputed - see their talk pages for further detail - and are in need of a conclusive ruling in or out.

• Josef Adelbrecht (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in the war. His German wikipedia article states he was killed on the Russian front NW of Moscow. Disputable death date.
• Dragutin Babic (Yugoslavia) - there is a source in Croat language but it is unclear to me it indicates manner of death
• Josef Bergmaier (Germany)
• Jozsef Eisenhoffer aka Joszef Aczal (Hungary) - also disputed death circumstances
• Bronislaw Fichtel (Poland) - disputed death date (see talk page)
• Hermann Flick (Germany) - stated to have been killed in action near Leningrad in 1944 without citation.
• Josef Fruhwirth (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in WWII. His article in German wikipedia has citation to an Austrian newspaper report of his death which I find unreadable, I can only make out he died on the 'Ostfront' (Eastern Front).
• Nikolai Gromov (Russia) - Russian language profile says he 'died at the front' in 1943 without further detail. More informative sources if found preferred.
• Karl-Richard Idlane (Estonia) - Death cause and death dates (both in 1942) disputable.
• Karl Kanhauser (Austria/Czechoslovakia) - German wikipedia states without citation he was drafted into the German army towards end of WWII and deployed to Yugoslavia where he was reported missing, no final year given.
• Franz Krumm (Germany) - There is a link to the German Volksbund (war graves commission) website but it does not directly connect to his details and I lack expertise to interrogate the site.
• Willi Lindner (Germany) - source in German language, not fully clear about death details
• Johann Luef (Austria) - his German wikipedia article indicates he died of wounds in hospital in East Prussia. Can anyone more fluent in German make out further detail in the newspaper report used as reference?
• Josef Madlmayer (Austria)
• Frank Manders (Great Britain) - Would welcome information that can definitely connect the airman who died at Sutton Coldfield to the airman of that name who is known to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) and is buried at Maidenhead, England. (There is a minor date discrepancy regarding his death.)
• Artur Marczewski (Poland) - his Polish and German wikipedia articles state without citation he disappeared in January 1945 following Red Army advance into Poland, where he had been working for the Germans as a factory official.
• Vladimir Markov (footballer) (Russia) - Stated in Olympedia to have died in Leningrad in 1942, which coincided with the long running siege of the city. Can evidence be found for treating him as a victim of the siege?
• Alexander Martinek (Austria/Germany) - Death date is disputable, the German wikipedia page gives this as in 1945 and cites it to the Volksbund website but the citation is not linked to a web page.
• Otto Martwig (Germany) - stated to have died in battle of Berlin without citation in German wikipedia.
• August Mobs (Germany) - said to have been killed in air raid.
• Alberto Nahmias (Greece) - death circumstances disputed; his English article gives two different years of death in 1980s without source. His Greek wikipedia biography states he was arrested by the Germans in 1942 because of Jewish origins and further trace was lost, possibly because of being put to death, although also said to have emigrated post-war. Can someone find sources that settle this? The nearest named individual recorded from Greek Jews listed in the Testimony Pages of Yad Vashem is an Alberto Nachmias (sic), born in Greece, died at Auschwitz, age given as 42 but no birth or death date given. However out of the estimated 6M Jews killed in the Holocaust only 4.5M are known to Yad Vashem.
• Slavko Pavletic (Croatia) - no death circumstance details given in text but has been categorised as a Croatian civilian killed in the war. In Croatian wikipedia, he is stated with citation to have been executed following Communist seizure of power in Croatia with 'date of execution' stated unknown, though the infobox gives a precise date of 27 May 1945 and death place as Zagreb.
• Kurts Plade (Latvia) - Repatriated to Germany as a Baltic German, his Latvian wikipedia article states he was 'killed' (no further detail) in February 1945 in Poznan, Poland. I note his death coincided with the Soviet siege of Poznan.
• Bernardo Poli (Italy) - Italian wikipedia indicates he died in 'an unspecified war accident' serving as an airman. Only citation in English wikipedia does not indicate manner of his death.
• Fyodor Rimsha (Russia) - Stated without citation in English and Russian wikipedias to have died in siege of Leningrad, allegation not supported by cited sources Olympedia and Russian language Profile, the latter of which states his fate after 1914 "is unknown".
• Holger Salin (Finland) - No decisive death date in most wikipedias. Although Finnuser reported a newspaper report states only he was killed in an accident, his German wikipedia article states that after his last international match (1943) he "fell..in the Continuation War" [term given to Finland's hostilities with the Soviet Union over 1941-45 in concert with Germany] in '1943 or 1944'. I do wonder if he was serving in the Finnish Armed Forces though. (Accidents as well as combat killed a number of players on the list.)
• Aristotel Samsuri (Albania) - Reportedly executed in German concentration camp in Greece as a Communist partisan between 1942/1944, but was claimed by the postwar Communist regime of Albania to have escaped and survived before proclaiming him a martyr in 1981.
• Gennaro Santillo (Italy) - Categorised as Italian military personnel killed in the war but no indications of military service on Italian wikipedia. Would like to be more certain of his status (mil or civ) before adding him.
• George Scoones (expatriate Briton who played in France) - French wikipedia (not English) give him same death date in 1940 as a soldier known to the CWGC in this link: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2278867/george-w-scoones/ See talk page - any agreement this is likely to be the same man?
• Harry Spencer (footballer) (New Zealand, previously played in England) - There are similarities with a New Zealand soldier known to the CWGC (see talk page of article). Can someone find confirmation they are the same man? In 2022 NZFC said he was investigating but has so far not responded.
• Erwin Stührk (Germany) - disputable death date, death place given in Volksbund site not easy to ascertain as it only gives German form of name rather than its vernacular.
• Ludwik Szabakiewicz (Poland) - disputable death details, particularly date
• Hugo Väli (Estonia) - originally listed by Olympedia as died in Soviet camp in Siberia, the source now falls in with information he died in Talinn in September 1944, making it questionable whether he was in Soviet captivity or died as a result.
• Willi Völker (Germany) - uncertainty about death location, identification questionable due to disputable birthplace details.
• Heinz Warnken (Germany) - German wikipedia gives him as gefallen (fallen) in 1943 but no detail of precise death date or death place.
• Willi Wigold (Germany) - date of death disputed - UPDATE - I have located a page in the Volksbund site and have added it as citation to support the later alleged death date.Cloptonson (talk) 08:26, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

There may be additions coming onto the list so I encourage watch this space! Others are welcome to add. Please let us know if sources are found and added into their articles.Cloptonson (talk) 08:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for 1997–98 Manchester United F.C. season

1997–98 Manchester United F.C. season has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 17:59, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Alisson Becker

Moved without request, needs fixing back and sorting. Govvy (talk) 18:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Has been fixed already by another user. RedPatch (talk) 19:04, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

User warned. GiantSnowman 20:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Cheers, I don't seem to get much free time for wikipedia these days, so I just take the opportunity to wish you all a good Christmas, Happy Holidays to all. Govvy (talk) 21:54, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Location in the lead of club articles

Looking for opinions on whether a state (or province) is necessary to mention in the lead of an article about a club. In the case of Seattle Sounders FC, there has been a dispute over this tiny change in wording, which had long been part of the article during its time as an FA, and it's getting tiresome. MLS articles have long had to blend norms from both global soccer articles (where neighborhoods and cities are mentioned side-by-side) and American sports articles (where states can be used), so some clarity seems to be needed. SounderBruce 03:16, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any issue with including the state. Correct me if I'm wrong but the impression I get is that it's far more common for the state to be included than not when talking about places in America. If that's the case, I'd suggest it would be better to include it. It also doesn't seem to have been an issue when it was promoted to FA, even if that was a while ago. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 11:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

No issues with state being included. GiantSnowman 11:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

List of J.League managers

I'm not sure what to do with the List of J.League managers – it's a somewhat random, cherry-picked list of people currently. It seems too unwieldy to expect this page to list every manager of every J.League club since the early 90s, especially taking into account J2 and J3 League teams. Is there any similar examples of pages from other countries leagues that have a similar set-up? Any advice generally on this page would be much appreciated. Thanks. Stueybrock (talk) 13:12, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

In its current form it is unsourced and not fit for purpose. GiantSnowman 11:21, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Nationality in lead

Could anybody please provide guidance regarding how to approach including the nationality in the lead of a footballer from the former Soviet Union (in this instance, Andrei Kanchelskis. I was of the belief that if there is any kind of dual nationality or complication etc, it isn't included in the opening line but is noted somewhere in the lead (e.g. Thiago Motta, Deco). How should this be dealt with in regards to Kanchelskis? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 17:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE says "Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable". Kanchelskis played international football for the Soviet Union and Russia so I think that should go in the lead. I see Oleg Blokhin is called a "Ukrainian and Soviet former football player and manager", which makes sense as he was the USSR's greatest outfield player, though he's outlived that country and can't be called just a Soviet. However for younger players who grew up in the Soviet Union but had no senior football connection to it (Shevchenko, Arshavin, Hleb...) I wouldn't mention the Soviet Union at all in the first line. One of the oddest things I saw recently was someone calling Yaya Touré an "Ivorian-British footballer" because he obtained British nationality way into his 30s, while that means absolutely nothing to his career. Unknown Temptation (talk) 10:13, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Ex-Soviet players are somewhat different to those who were born in one country and played for another through heritage/residency. GiantSnowman 11:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)