Talk:Falun Gong

who's the falun gong lawyer?

[1] who is the lawyer? can you provide the exact original language in whichever source is being referred to? the state dept says "Falun Gong sources estimate that tens of millions continue to practice privately." what lawyer? Happy monsoon day 18:25, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

In this source: [2] STSC (talk) 04:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

ok - so where does it say that he's a falun gong lawyer? in any case, this level of granularity isn't necessary for an introductory paragraph. Happy monsoon day 18:20, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

updated along these lines. it seems there are several independent sources giving this as the estimate so i just made it simpler for the introduction. however this might be worth exploring elsewhere in the article, since there may be sources that diverge from the consensus of 'tens of millions' (sounds quite high to me), and the actual article text would have scope to explore the complexities of coming up with an accurate estimate of a highly repressed and marginalized population.Happy monsoon day 22:39, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

The source you added was already there. Anyway, you're right that nothing in the Telegraph article indicates that this is a "Falun Gong source" or a "Falun Gong lawyer," as STSC's edits would have us believe. A more detailed discussion of the numbers question can be found in this China Quarterly article[3]. It notes estimates from a few different sources over the last several years, including Falun Gong estimates, third parties, and internal government documents (e.g. one official in Shandong province saying that there are over 300000 known adherents just in that province) The triangulation method does support a large number, but tens of millions may still be difficult to conclude definitely. Would it be better if we just said "millions"? This is still reflective of the sources we have, and probably more easily defensible.TheBlueCanoe 13:32, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

The U.S. State Dept attributes the claim of "tens of millions" to Falun Gong sources. And the lawyer representing the FG clients was the FG lawyer who also made the "tens of millions" claim. STSC (talk) 16:49, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Number of FG practitioners

Just because practitioners in China are being persecuted in China does not mean that the numbers have gone down. A friend of mine who was in China wanted to find out the truth about Falun Gong after the persecution began in 1999 and became a practitioner herself. Later her daughter also became a practitioner. When whole families are practicing FG so its likely that the children will also take up the practice.

To me the statement that tens of millions are practicing is conservative but acceptable. But millions implies above 1 million to 10 million which implies something like a 20 fold decrease in numbers if 100 million was the figure before the persecution started. There is no evidence of a large decrease in practitioners. So I think tens of millions should be reinstated. Aaabbb11 (talk) 01:22, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales' words

"Although Wikipedia is accessible in China, certain pages are filtered. Nobel peace prize recipient Liu Xiaobo and dissident artist Ai Weiwei's pages were blocked by Chinese authorities. Events like the Tiananmen Square riots or religious cults like Falun Gong cannot be openly discussed online in China." https://www.vice.com/read/wikipedia-founders-uncompromising-stance-on-censorship-and-users-privacy Here Jimmy was criticizing the Chinese communist government. The word cult has quite different meanings and has no negative implications in Jimmy's line. if someone wants to refer Jimmy"s words, it has to reflect the line, and should not be only one word. Marvin 2009 (talk) 00:44, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

How do you know the word "Religious cults" has no negative meaning? I described the fact, I did not say anything about whether "Religious cults" has any negative or positive meaning.--Raintwoto 12:06, 18 June 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto (talk • contribs)

Jimmy was criticizing the Chinese communist government, which was the context when he mentioned FG. But User:Raintwoto added the word "however" in his editing. It added a negative implication to the page. Marvin 2009 (talk) 14:43, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

OK, I will delete the word "however". I will let the reader decide what does it mean. --Raintwoto 17:23, 18 June 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto (talk • contribs)

On what basis have you decided that an incidental mention from a non-expert on this topic should be included in the lead section of the article?TheBlueCanoe 05:07, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Because he is the co-founder of Wikipedia?--Raintwoto 21:07, 20 June 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto (talk • contribs)

That is irrelevant for our purposes.TheBlueCanoe 01:34, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

I would like to make it very clear that my thoughts, words, and opinions on this matter are of no relevance for this article. I am not an expert on Falun Gong nor cults, nor are my opinions of such things (expert or not) generally encyclopedic, i.e. I am not an anti-cult activist or anything of the sort which would give my words particular interest to Wikipedia editors in this context.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:24, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Well said. Thanks for clarifying.TheBlueCanoe 15:39, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Actually, it's not well said. Wikipedia has no policy to allow for the speakers of outside quotations to come here and tell Wikipedians whether their comment is suitable or not as a reliable source for what they were quoted as saying! If we had that policy, then Green Party candidate, Alan Saldanha, who resigned after making a rape comment on Facebook, could just tell us that his Facebook comments are not relevant in Controversies in the Canadian federal election, 2011. Or Matt Selman could contact us and say that his comments about East St. Louis are not relevant in They Saved Lisa's Brain. Stop paying so much deference to Jimmy Wales, that his word is Gospel, just because he helped Larry Sanger set up Wikipedia! - 208.54.90.142 (talk) 13:49, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

The proposal to include Wales' description was premised on the (mistaken) notion that his comments have encyclopedic merit for no other reason than that he co-founded Wikipedia. You're arguing that co-founding Wikipedia does not make a person's opinions relevant. I think we've arrived at the same place. TheBlueCanoe 14:45, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Sources

TheBlueCanoe Last time I was asked for secondary sources instead of primary. I provided them. Is another problem being manufactured?Rajmaan (talk) 04:38, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I don't recall that. See my comments here. The issue was not limited to an over-reliance on primary sources (you cited TIME Magazine on both occasions, unless I'm mistaken). Instead it was one of figuring out how to accord the right amount of weight to these issues in relation to other aspects of the doctrine, and how to contextualize them, etc. We actually did use your edits as impetus to come up with a solution, and the page includes a discussion of supernatural abilities. It seems you were MIA for that part of the discussion.TheBlueCanoe 04:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

i think they (ie secondary sourceS) may actually be, rajmaan, given the policy on WP:PRIMARY. the idea is that we cannot use primary sources to make a point we want to make. for example that falun gong religious beliefs are funny or silly because there are aliens and stuff. i might agree, but actually we would need to find a chinese religious scholar who can explain what role these thoughts have in the flg doctrinal system. we can't just pick something and stick it in because it sounds ridiculous. that's my understanding of the policy anyway. others can correct me if i'm wrong. i just took a look at david ownby's book on google books and it only seems to mention aliens twice, in passing.Happy monsoon day 04:31, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

There is no discussion of aliens and views towards technology and science on the page. And what constitutes tendentious edits are using Falun Gong run media and representing them as third party RS by failing to mention their provenance in the article.Rajmaan (talk) 05:19, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

There seems to be a sudden lack of disinterest in discussion when reliable secondary sources are provided on Falun Gong's hostile positoin towards modern western science and their belief that it comes from aliens- the article as it stands now currently presents Falun Gong's anti-science views as CCP propaganda, when I provided reliable secondary sources from scholars and primary sources from Falun Gong themselves on their belief that science was created by aliens to subvert humanity. It seems as if the page is being whitewashed and sanitized by these people User:Colipon has discussed User:Colipon/Falun Gong.Rajmaan (talk) 22:11, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Here's the thing: there have been many discussions before about whether belief in aliens should be on this page, and each time, it comes down to a question of due weight. The extraterrestrial issue is apparently a very insignificant aspect of the belief system. It’s curious that the editors who insist on aliens being mentioned don’t make the same demands for other aspects of the doctrine that feature far more prominently in both the primary and secondary literature, such as its discussions of spiritual anatomy, the structure of the universe, the concepts and implications of inborn quality, the evolution of Buddhism, forms of enlightenment, art and aesthetics, and so on.

Moreover, everyone who proposes the inclusion of the alien material does so because they think it reflects poorly on Falun Gong. That is, they don't make arguments about its encyclopedic value—they argue that it's important because it makes Falun Gong look bad. You seem to be no exception. Given some of your previous edits to this page[4], it's not clear that you're actually here to build an encyclopedia.

Anyway, I'm not opposed in principle to elaborating a bit more about Falun Gong's views of and relationship to modern science in a way that observes principles of neutrality and balance.TheBlueCanoe 00:11, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

It wouldn't have been a question of due weight if the article at present wasn't trying to falsely present Falun Gong's very well soured anti-science views as CCP propaganda. The propaganda campaign focused on allegations that Falun Gong jeopardized social stability, was deceiving and dangerous, was "anti-science" and threatened progress. The article as of now is claiming that Falun Gong's views on science are either CCP propaganda or as stemming from "traditional Chinese cultural thought" and "traditional Chinese medicine". This is NPOV and unbalanced. It says nothing about the fact that Falun Gong is anti science because it believes Aliens created modern science and use it to subvert humans and therefore by deliberate omission presents it as either traditional Chinese views or CCP propaganda. Either delete the cited passages or mention the aliens to restore balance and due weight.

You support the inclusion of Falun Gong's own newspaper Epoch Times as an RS without indicating it is pro Falun Gong in Falun Gong related articles. In other words, things that you think makes Falun Gong looks bad gets deleted by you regardless of encyclopedic value while Falun Gong sources can be used if they make Falun Gong's opponents look bad.

User:Marvin 2009 very closely resembles those SPA accounts described by Colipon and its fascinating how STSC gets reported for arbitration and topic banning while Marvin 2009 is somehow still free to edit Falun Gong articles and no one has spoke out against his edits. His entire account is literally dedicated to defending Falun Gong. It appears that these SPAs are gaming the system and playing good cop and bad cop with some appearing to be more overtly neutral than others and editing unrelated topics occasionally to pretend not to be an SPA, while hovering around the Falun Gong article. In the talk page archives there were editors like Ohconfucius and Colipon who are critical of the CCP and didn't let that get in the way of confronting Falun Gong SPAs trying to whitewash the article until the deluge of SPAs got them banned by arbitration and apparently pro Falun Gong SPAs are given free reign over the article.Rajmaan (talk) 06:08, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

I did edit other pages, like 2008 Sichuan earthquake etc. However i came across some users who seem to be dedicated to provide false info to Wikipedia articals, especially FG related articles, I had to explain again and again what they put in the related pages are just opposite to the sources they provided. Otherwise I could have had more time for editing other pages. User:Rajmaan seems to be such a user. This time User:Rajmaan added the line "Li claimed that his teachings can be used to halt fast cars in addition to curing illness" in the at least two articles again. But in my response to Rajmaan last November , I made it very clear that according to the Time report Mr. Li simply WON'T cure illnesses and Mr. Li claimed that his teachings can NOT be used to halt fast cars. I do not understand how could User:Rajmaan keep adding entirely false and opposite meaning into the pages. Marvin 2009 (talk) 18:59, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Claims with no evidence

Falun Gong practitioners in China are reportedly subject to a wide range of human rights abuses: hundreds of thousands are estimated to have been imprisoned extrajudicially, and practitioners in detention are subject to forced labor, psychiatric abuse, torture, and other coercive methods of thought reform at the hands of Chinese authorities. As of 2009, human rights groups estimated that at least 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners had died as a result of abuse in custody.[4] Some observers put the number much higher, and report that tens of thousands may have been killed to supply China's organ transplant industry.[5][6] In the years since the persecution began, Falun Gong practitioners have become active in advocating for greater human rights in China.

However, these claims have no evidence at all and I think we should delete it. You can read the US congress report:

https://file.wikileaks.org/file/crs/RL33437.pdf

1. In March 2006, U.S. Falun Gong representatives claimed that thousands of practitioners had been sent to 36 concentration camps throughout the PRC. According to their allegations, at one such site in Sujiatun, near the city of Shenyang, a hospital has been used as a detention center for 6,000 Falun Gong prisoners, three-fourths of whom are said to have been killed and had their organs harvested for profit. American officials from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang visited the area as well as inspected the hospital on two occasions and “found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital.”
2. Falun Gong adherents detained there, three-fourths allegedly had their organs removed and then were cremated or never seen again.24 American officials from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang visited the area as well as the hospital site on two occasions — the first time unannounced and the second with the cooperation of PRC officials — and after investigating the facility “found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital.”25 Amnesty International spokespersons have stated that the claims of systematic organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners cannot be confirmed or denied.
3. Since 2001, Falun Gong plaintiffs have filed several lawsuits in federal courts claiming that the PRC officials in the United States have been responsible for dozens of isolated incidents of physical and verbal harassment, eavesdropping, and destruction of property of Falun Gong adherents and supporters in the United States. However, plaintiffs often have possessed little evidence of direct involvement by the Chinese government in the alleged incidents. PRC consular officials deny participation in such criminal activity in the United States and claim that they are entitled to diplomatic immunity. In November 2002, the Circuit Court of Cook County charged a PRC immigrant with battery for having physically assaulted a Falun Gong hunger striker in front of the Chinese Consulate in Chicago in September 2001.39 In February 2005, Falun Gong members in the United States reported that a coordinated, world-wide campaign (in over 20 countries) of telephone harassment against them had taken place.40 This telephone harassment allegedly consisted of pre-recorded anti-Falun Gong messages in both English and Chinese, some purportedly originating in China.

Raintwoto 20:06, 3 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto (talk • contribs)

There's plenty of evidence for this claim, nearly all of it published after the U.S. embassy report you cited.TheBlueCanoe 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Could you cite the evidence? I did not find any hard evidence except the statements. I would like to know what are the evidence...Raintwoto 21:28, 3 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto (talk • contribs)

The founder of Falun Gong believe that aliens invaded earth

I think we should add this interesting evidence from the interview of the Founder Li Hongzhi in Time.

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2053761,00.html

TIME: Why does chaos reign now?

TIME: Why does chaos reign now? Li: Of course there is not just one reason. The biggest cause of society's change today is that people no longer believe in orthodox religion. They go to church, but they no longer believe in God. They feel free to do anything. The second reason is that since the beginning of this century, aliens have begun to invade the human mind and its ideology and culture.

TIME: Where do they come from? Li: The aliens come from other planets. The names that I use for these planets are different . Some are from dimensions that human beings have not yet discovered. The key is how they have corrupted mankind. Everyone knows that from the beginning until now, there has never been a development of culture like today. Although it has been several thousand years, it has never been like now.

The aliens have introduced modern machinery like computers and airplanes. They started by teaching mankind about modern science, so people believe more and more science, and spiritually, they are controlled. Everyone thinks that scientists invent on their own when in fact their inspiration is manipulated by the aliens. In terms of culture and spirit, they already control man. Mankind cannot live without science.

The ultimate purpose is to replace humans. If cloning human beings succeeds, the aliens can officially replace humans. Why does a corpse lie dead, even though it is the same as a living body? The difference is the soul, which is the life of the body. If people reproduce a human person, the gods in heaven will not give its body a human soul. The aliens will take that opportunity to replace the human soul and by doing so they will enter earth and become earthlings.

When such people grow up, they will help replace humans with aliens. They will produce more and more clones. There will no longer be humans reproduced by humans. They will act like humans, but they will introduce legislation to stop human reproduction.

TIME: Are you a human being? Li: You can think of me as a human being.

TIME: Are you from earth? Li: I don't wish to talk about myself at a higher level. People wouldn't understand it.

TIME: What are the aliens after? Li: The aliens use many methods to keep people from freeing themselves from manipulation. They make earthlings have wars and conflicts, and develop weapons using science, which makes mankind more dependent on advanced science and technology. In this way, the aliens will be able to introduce their stuff and make the preparations for replacing human beings. The military industry leads other industries such as computers and electronics.

TIME: But what is the alien purpose? Li: The human body is the most perfect in the universe. It is the most perfect form. The aliens want the human body.

TIME: What do aliens look like? Li: Some look similar to human beings. U.S. technology has already detected some aliens. The difference between aliens can be quite enormous.

TIME: Can you describe it? Li: You don't want to have that kind of thought in your mind.

TIME: Describe them anyway. Li: One type looks like a human, but has a nose that is made of bone. Others look like ghosts. At first they thought that I was trying to help them. Now they now that I am sweeping them away.,

TIME: How do you see the future? Li: Future human society is quite terrifying. If aliens are not to replace human beings, society will destroy itself on its own. Industry is creating invisible air pollution. The microparticles in the air harm human beings. The abnormality in the climate today is caused by that [pollution], and it cannot be remedied by humans alone. The drinking water is polluted. No matter how we try to purify it, it cannot return to its original purity. Modern science cannot determine the extent of the damage. The food we eat is the product of fertilized soil. The meat we eat is affected. I can foresee a future when human limbs become deformed, the body's joints won't move and internal organs will become dysfunctional. Modern science hasn't realized this yet.

At the beginning you asked why I did such things. I only tell practitioners, but not the public because they cannot comprehend it. I am trying to save those people who can return to a high level and to a high moral level. Modern science does not understand this, so governments can do nothing. The only person in the entire world who knows this is myself alone.

I am not against the public knowing, but I am teaching practitioners. Even though the public knows, it cannot do anything about it. People can't free themselves from science and from their concepts. I am not against science. I am only telling mankind the truth. I drive a car. I also live in the environment. Don't believe that I am against science. But I know that modern science is destroying mankind. Aliens have already constructed a layer of cells in human beings. The development of computers dictates this layer of body cells to control human culture and spirituality and in the end to replace human beings.

Raintwoto 20:09, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Sigh. Here's another one. This has been discussed and rejected dozens of times before, but no new arguments have been put forward for why this material needs to be mentioned prominently in this article. Li has said lots of things on lots of topics, yet you're not advocating to include all of his other statements on the page. Can you tell us how this is appropriate under the principle of WP:DUE)?TheBlueCanoe 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Why not? How many interviews Li has done? I did not find many.... This is so absurd... That's the reason... I don't understand how could Wikipedia ignore such absurd statement....Raintwoto 21:32, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

"Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the main space fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." I believe that time magazine is reliable source and this is a significant viewpoint since half of the interview is about aliens. Raintwoto 21:36, 3 July 2016 (UTC)