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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by JJNito197 (talk | contribs) at 22:59, 26 January 2024 (→Ethnic groups: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Religious sects

Radartooth, per WP:GF i suggest you move the religious sects in the "see also" section to "Maronite Church" article. It is less relevant here.Greyshark09 (talk) 09:28, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I did not see that post from you. As I wrote previously Shi'a and Sunni Muslims plus the Greek Orthodox Christian also fit into the interpretation for ethnoreligious group within present day Lebanon. All of these groups see themselves not only as a religious sect but also as an ethnoreligious group. It will be a redundant article if we make one for the religious sect, as in the case of Maronite Church, and another for the ethnoreligious group like the article for Maronites. That is why I think it is also relevant here as well in the "see also" section to "Maronite Church" article as you proposed.

Radartoothth (talk) 00:37, 12 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Languages

Radartooth, you got a point that saying "Cypriot Maronite Arabic" is enough to imply they speak it in Cyprus. For Galilean Maronites it is hence suitable to say they speak Hebrew only in the Galilee - i'm not sure whether Hebrew or Arabic is their first language - because many of them speak also Aramaic as mother tongue.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:48, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Population

For the list of populations, the infobox mostly uses one source, which does not appear to be the most reliable and may exaggerate the numbers of Maronites living abroad. For example, it states that there are 750,000 Maronites in Argentina, a very substantial number. Yet this source says there are only 10,000 Maronites in Argentina, a number more believable given that there are only 4 Maronite parishes in the country. It is probably best for us to check each number with other sources for verification. --Precision123 (talk) 19:16, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Attention needed

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
While there was no specific question asked the discussion is revolves on if the Maronites are a ethnic group or a a religious sect. There is consensus that they are a religious sect and not an ethnic group. While some sources were provided, the majority opinion shows that they are problematic. AlbinoFerret 00:24, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs a lot of attention to re-center focus on the people of the Maronite confession. I have deleted every mention that claims that Maronites are a separate ethnic group that sets them apart in their surroundings: (1) the cited sources do not support this claim (2) the AINA website is not to be trusted. it belongs to proselytic group of people who seek to dissociate christians from Arab belonging and identity, without scientific proof; (3) and probably most notably, genetic testing done in lebanon (and other regions of the Levant and mediterranean basin) showed great heterogeneity of the Lebanese population of all confessions and faiths and there was no prominent ethnicity centering in one religious group (Rf. to Zalloua et al). Finally Marnotism is a confession just like Shia Islam or Catholicism, some editors who are not well informed on the subject do not know that the Maronite church is in communion with the catholic church and think it is a separate sect or religion. For the reasons above and more it is of great importance that this article be re-written. I am not a big fan of religion or politics related articles but i could not let misinformation become accepted as truth. I will try to fetch some sources and recenter the article to address the main subject. Elias Z 11:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I concur, Grey Shark, there is no scientific evidence that proves that the Maronites' ethnic background is any different from their fellow Lebanese or that of Syrians, Jordanians, and Palestinians. The Maronites were originally from modern-day Syria around Aleppo and they fled that region for the isolated Mount Lebanon so that they could escape religious persecution from the Byzantines and to a lesser extent from the Muslims. Think of it this way, if the Maronites are indeed a separate ethnic group, distinct from let's say the Lebanese Shia, then how come the Maronites have Arabic surnames? George Al-Shami (talk) 22:24, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is your opinion and this is described under "embrace of Arab identity" or alternatively "Lebanese identity". Disposing of a very notable view that Maronites are an ethnic group is violation of NPOV - there are plenty of sources describing Maronites as an ethnic group (Ethnic and religious diversity in lebanon, Are Christian Enclaves the Solution? Disappearing Christians of the Middle East, Mutation analysis of a Sandhoff disease patient in the Maronite community in Cyprus). Changing the article with no proper discussion, in violation of previous status quo, is bad faith - pls self-revert.GreyShark (dibra) 06:44, 6 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Grey shark, the view that the Maronites are an ethnic group, is your opinion and is not backed up by the overwhelming majority of reliable sources. In your haste to back up your opinion you've found some problematic sources. The first one by John Entelis is listing all the religious sects as "ethnic groups" really?? Since when did Sunnis, Shias, and Greek Orthodox become ethnic groups? I'm sorry, that is not a reliable scholarly source. Then you use the "Middle est Forum", you know better than that, GS. As the name suggests it's a forum, since when did Wikipedia turn into an encyclopedia supported by blogs and forums. The authors and people behind MMF, such as Walid Phares and Daniel Pipes, are heavily biased and controversial; no serious scholar would touch that forum. It is a political organization that operates like a Zionist think-tank. The last source never employs the word "ethnic", but instead uses "community". For the last charge, please be honest, I have been encountering your numerous edits on Eastern Mediterranean and Arab world articles for years, and you make major edits (not like Elie's edit) sporadically without seeking any consensus, please be honest, man. George Al-Shami (talk) 21:49, 6 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hey George, nice to see you again after watching you working day-n-night throughout wikipedia and making POV edits. Don't get angry, but keep on reading what i want to tell you here. It is unfortunate that you fail to understand what is WP:NPOV, as you seem to suggest we should ignore scholars who may think otherwise than your POV opinion (doesn't matter if you think what is right and what is wrong). Let me introduce you to some basics of Wikipedia:
Have a nice day George.GreyShark (dibra) 13:52, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think that comment was uncalled for GreyShark, verbally attacking other editors will not make your ideas any more acceptable. If you continue bullying I'm gonna have to report you -Elias Z 14:02, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is you who is pushing the contested idea. You have inserted the notion that maronites are an ethnic group left right and center in every paragraph of the article and especially in the lead section. If you want a compromise you will get one if you start addressing the other editors will less defensiveness and more respect. A paragraph can be inserted to accommodate both viewpoints instead and maybe it's a good idea to remember that you do not own this or any other article. -Elias Z 14:07, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"working day-n-night", you make 10 times more edits than me, wow; anyways I would like to delineate "reliable" in the guideline you posted. A reliable "scholar" is somebody such as Kamal Salibi, who has published many books on the region and has been studying the history of this region for more than half a century. Without getting defensive about it, please address the merits of the contentions I raised earlier; a political forum is not a reliable source. I would not object to a reliable source that, surprisingly, argues that the religious sects in the same country that speak the same language and share the same history are also different ethnic groups; but please, if you insist on keeping the aforementioned contention, then surely the onus is on you to back it up with serious reliable scholarly. Elie simply removed a contention that has little merit in a serious academic study and is not encyclopedic, and I concurred with that considering everything I have learned about this region and country in particular. I will double check to see the guidelines on this. George Al-Shami (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad the discussion calmed down a notch. For my part I will revisit the individual sources over the weekend. The contested statement was edited in early on (second edit after the page creation) by an editor who specializes in Assyria and Assyrian ethnicity-related articles and it doesn't surprise me that he would dig out this kind of information in political forums or whatever place he could. But I'd be really disappointed if we cannot discuss this issue without obstinacy. -Elias Z 06:40, 9 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Assyrian ethnicity is another issue, separate from Maronites. If at all Maronites are somewhat related culturally with Jacobites/Arameans, which is advocated by some Galilean Maronites. Aramean identity of Maronites is however controversial and it is indeed put as just one of the positions.
  • Comment - George's position that Maronites are merely one of the Levantine groups is also notable - it is local new nationalism i guess, which was at the time developed by various political movements - whether pan-Arabists, or pan-Syrians, or pan-Lebanese. Maronites can be certainly seen as part of the new Lebanese identity, which we have a section for Maronites#Support of Lebanese identity. Am i understanding correctly what you are trying to say George? I don't object to add to lead about this issue. GreyShark (dibra) 20:32, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I salute your endeavor to find a compromise, and I have compromised with many editors on different articles, mostly political articles, but this is article is not a political one. I am concerned with making this article as encyclopedic and non-political as possible. Here's a concise definition of the word "ethnicity" from dictionary.com. It states the following an ethnic group; a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like:; The Maronites share the same culture as their other fellow Christians and a very similar culture to that of secular Sunnis and Shias. They also share the same history of other persecuted Christian minorities and the wider non-religious shared history of the Eastern-Mediterranean. Another aspect to look at is the fact that Maronites are not the only Christian sect that is in communion with the Holy See in Rome, the Greek Catholics are in the same communion; so this makes the Maronite sect very similar to the Greek Catholic one and negates the distinction that's inherent in the religious part of an "ethnic group". They also share the same language as their fellow Lebanese nationals regardless of their religious background. The points I outline above are the reason why I'm objected to a political narrative that maintains they constitute an ethnicity. I started editing on Wikipedia in 2006 and now, more than ever, my main objective is to make the articles as encyclopedic as possible; and I resented the fact that a political narrative is being sown into an article about a religious sect. An issue like this can only be settled from reliable sources such as Kamal Salibi. George Al-Shami (talk) 23:54, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
George, as now the lead says "The Maronites are an ethno-religious group situated in the Levant, mainly in the area of modern Lebanon.", i suggest to modify it into "Maronites are Maronite Church adherents, who are sometimes considered an ethno-religious group, originated from the Levant, mainly in the area of modern Lebanon." What do you think?GreyShark (dibra) 08:41, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But, where's the reliable source that says they're "ethno-religious"? I took out my copy of Kamal Salibi's A house of Many Mansions" The history of Lebanon Reconsidered and nowhere does he say that the Maronites are a separate and distinct ethnicity, his historical research paints the opposite picture; that the Maronites are most likely from Arabian ancestry, and spoke Arabic by the 9th century. On page 87 he mentions The earliest known references to the Maronites, however, are to be found in the works of two Muslim scholars of the 10th century, the historian Al-Masudi and the theologian Abd al-Jabbar, both of whom described the Maronites as Monothelite Christians, explaining exactly what that meant. Throughout the book, Salibi follows the historical trail and analyzes primary documents; the Maronites originating from Southern Arabia 10 000 years ago, is what his research shows not his opinion. He does, however mention that Maronite Patriarchs as early as the 1500s try to distinguish themselves as a distinctive community for political purposes. The book basically debunks Maronite historical revisionism, that is again, backed by historical primary documents. Therefore I propose ""Maronites are Monothelite Christians who adhere to the Maronite Church and mainly hail from Mount Lebanon. The politics of early 20th century Ottoman Syria led the Maronites to form a political narrative that distinguishes them from mostly Muslim Syria, and to some this qualifies them as a "ethno-religious group". George Al-Shami (talk) 03:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with George. I couldn't find a source to support the claim that the Maronites are a separate ethnicity either. I reviewed all the sources and only politically motivated pages and websites discuss the issue of the Maronite seeking a separate identity for motivations that are very well known (as also made clear by George). Seeking an identity doesn't change the truth about who you are no? The identity section discusses some the ideologies duly but the article as a whole is very skewed to this POV and I believe George's wording sets things straight. -Elias Z 11:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What you say is a valid POV, but only one of them. You cannot agree for compromise by dismissing other opinions.GreyShark (dibra) 21:43, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sources for ethno-religious: Ethnic and religious diversity in lebanon, Are Christian Enclaves the Solution? Disappearing Christians of the Middle East, Mutation analysis of a Sandhoff disease patient in the Maronite community in Cyprus, A Survey of Maronite Christian Socio-Political Attitudes in Postwar Lebanon.GreyShark (dibra) 21:43, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Which sources call them an "ethno-religious" group rather than just a religious one? I agree there is no ethnic distinction (yeah, they use Aramaic in church, but how does that make them ethnically distinct?), but so then there is none for say, Druze and Alawites, who are also sometimes referred to as ethno-religious, due to their endogamy. Christian Levantines generally have less peninsular Arab ancestry than Levantine Muslims, but that's a general thing (not unique for Maronites), and even then, Christian Arab tribes did contribute to their gene pools. Also, Muslim Lebanese have converted to Maronite Christianity in the past, with no "ethnic" hindrance, see Chehab family. In the end, it's all up to what the reliable sources say, not what we think. Also remember, ethnicity is defined by self-identification, otherwise there would really not be that many different ethnicities in the Balkans, for example... FunkMonk (talk) 23:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging ‎Attar-Aram syria and Al Ameer son. FunkMonk (talk) 23:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh wow, the Maronites are an ethnicity ! Believe me, if having different cultural elements makes you an ethnicity then the people of Aleppo will definitely be their own ethnicity. Ethnicities are a fluid concept that depend of the feelings of their members; you cant just dig into some special practices a group might have to call it an ethnicity. Maronites are the reason for the creation of Lebanon; they are Lebanese and dont adhere to a Maronite ethnicity (they are devided between Arab, Phoenician, Aramean and even Assyrian but not Maronite !). Using the language of their liturgy mean nothing; the moslims of Ma'lula, Bakh'a and Jubaddin speak Aramaic as a mother tongue !! yet they consider themselves Arabs. You cant declare them a new ethnicity !!!!!!!! we dont have the "Aramean ethnicity of Jubaddin".
As for having Arab ancestry, what make a Yemeni Jew like Bo'az Ma'uda and the beautiful (I mean gosh she is a goddess) Natalie Portman the same ethnicity ? you dont actually believe that they have the same ancestry ? sure they share a minority of Levantine ancestors who transmitted Judaism to them but they are both obviously not the direct pure descendants Hezekiah but their mutual feelings of belonging is what makes them the same ethnicity ! This goes for the Moslims or Christians of the Levant, the majority of their genetic composition isnt Arab, and thats why you cant use the fact that Moslims might have more Arab composition than Christians to create a new ethnicity. Yeah, Moslims might have more Arab genetic flow but it doesnt change the fact that this Arab influence is the minority of their genes (even 49% is a minority). Moslims in the Levant didnt come from Arabia, they just have 2 or 3 more Arab granddaddies than the Christians. Yet, moslims of Palestine embrace the minority of their composition and adhere to an Arab ethnicity which connect them to Mauritania !! Thats why they are called Arabs and we cant declare them a new ethnicity. The same goes to Maronites. I have sources that declare a Syrian ethnicity, but I wont be using them soon cause Syrians consider themselves Arabs. So, does the Maronites consider themselves an ethnicity? those are the sources that you need to look for not some random scholar who decided that the adherents of a Church are an ethnicity !!!!--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 05:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Attar-Aram syria, you brought up a good point about the "fluid concept" of ethnicity and the "feelings of their members"; I've always subscribed to this concept, but I guess I got caught up in the historical trail (after all there are too many history books to read!) and left out the anthropological aspect. In almost every Lebanese Maronite person I've come across, when pressed for their origins, they always respond with the national designation "Lebanese", and they, conversely, never respond with "Maronite". I think GreyShark was thinking and comparing the Lebanese Maronites to his own people when he felt strongly about this edit, because the Jews have long been considered "ethno-religious" in their diaspora for centuries and perhaps he assumed the Lebanese Maronites had the same feeling, and thereby having the same classification too. For instance, the overwhelming of North American Jews (of course the majority of North American Jews are not from Israel) I've come across, will respond with "Jewish" when pressed to self-identify, and the same could not be said of the Maronites; the latter will respond with "Lebanese" for the same question and will respond with "Maronite" when pressed for their religious affiliation. George Al-Shami (talk) 01:45, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The Maronites are a religious group, which anyone could join. Maronite identity is inextricably linked (and practically synonymous) with the Lebanese identity, although there are others who embrace an additional Arab, Syrian/Syriac/Aramean identity (none of these are necessarily incompatible with each other and the Arab world is full of identity overlap). It should be noted that occasionally all of Lebanon's religious groups are collectively referred to as "ethnoreligous groups", but does that really mean that Sunni and Shia Muslims and Orthodox and Melkite Christians are also ethnoreligious groups? More often than not, the various groups in Lebanon are accurately referred to as "religious sects". What will ultimately determine the outcome of this discussion is whether or not reliable sources support the claim that Maronites are an ethnic group. A source that has been twice referenced by Greyshark above is authored by Walid Phares, a controversial advocate of Maronite separatism within Lebanon. He is a partisan political figure, not an objective or expert source, and his views should be attributed to him. I cannot access the other sources referenced above by Greyshark (it's a bit costly to verify their content just for the purpose of this discussion. I'll leave it for someone else to verify their details and reliability). The lead should mention the identity(ies) embraced by the Maronites, but the first sentence(s) should essentially read that the Maronites are followers of the Maronite Church. I have no problem with the content of George's proposed intro. --Al Ameer (talk) 03:13, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, Walid Phares... I remember his old website (think it was his) where he claimed the Lebanese dialect (along with Maltese) was not Arabic, but Phoenician, lol... Certainly not a reliable source. As far as I know, his main claim is not that Maronites are an ethno-religious group, it's just the old myth that they are somehow the last Phoenicians, though they originated in the Syrian mountains. FunkMonk (talk) 04:24, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Result It appears that we have a working consensus 5 - 1 in favor of reliable sources that make no mention of the Maronite Christian sect doubling as an ethnic group. I'm returning Elie's original good-faith edits, I believe the identity section is already strong enough, however there's no harm in expanding that section to incorporate more political narratives. GreyShark please do not revert for the third time 3RR, if you find a verifiable (one that we could read and verify without having to pay $22) and reliable scholarly source that states that the Maronite religious sect is also an ethnicity, please post it here so we could verify it. George Al-Shami (talk) 02:01, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A few further notes, just because some sources refer to Lebanese sects as "ethnic groups" for whatever reason, this should not be taken to mean that these self-identify as ethnic groups. Also, there is an official Israeli policy of sowing disunity among their Arab population by somehow classifying Christian and Druze Arabs as "ethnically distinct" from Muslim Arabs. Divide and conquer at its finest, so such sources should not be used either. FunkMonk (talk) 02:17, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I second that. George Al-Shami (talk) 02:25, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
George, your math is wrong - it is 4:2.GreyShark (dibra) 05:16, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In the current discussion that began on December 3rd, could you please tell me who else agreed with you? George Al-Shami (talk) 03:48, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, my mistake... indeed not 4:2.GreyShark (dibra) 21:31, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - George, your retraction from trying to reach a common ground (above) back into an aggressive editing in contrary to WP:BRD is a bad faith. How come that from a discussion on lead content, where i tried to find an accepted version for all opinions, this turned into a suppression of voices? Is this the sound of tyranny? It is especially evident since you close this discussion yourself, instead of asking a neutral party (and noting that you change it from 4:2 to 5:1 just to "look good" is very disturbing).GreyShark (dibra) 05:21, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Greyshark I don't see how anyone's voice was suppressed, you got to call in editors who happened to all disagree with you.-Elias Z 07:24, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Greyshark, the onus is in you to provide robust sources that clearly demonstrate that this is not just a minority view. This has not been done yet. You need reliable sources that specifically say "Maronites are considered an ethno-religious group", not just "Lebanese sects in general are sometimes considered ethno-religious groups. Using that here is bordering on original synthesis and fringe. FunkMonk (talk) 09:34, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Greyshark, your accusations are unfair. I reverted the same edit twice (2x) (1 time before the result of the discussion and then 1 time after the result of the discussion) and you also made two (2x) reverts (both before other editors joined the discussion). How do my edits qualify as "aggressive editing", when you also made (2x) reverts? GreyShark, where is the suppression, no other editor agreed with you. Moreover, and most importantly your POV stating that the Maronites are an ethnicity is essentially an opinion or your own original research, whereas the Maronites being a religious sect is an established fact demonstrated by verifiable and reliable sources. This article is about a religious sect and it's not a political one; therefore there are no "voices", you can't turn a religious sect into an ethnicity just because you believe that is the case; that's original research. You have yet to provide a verifiable reliable source that proves your contention. I found this verifiable source on the Jews article (Ethnic Groups of Africa and the Middle East: An Encyclopedia) and guess what, the Maronites were not listed out of the many (over 70) ethnic groups. As for your last allegation, I have seen many editors who; (1) commented (2) didn't make the original (as was in my case over here) edit and then (3) closed the discussion. George Al-Shami (talk) 03:48, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Jonney2000: First, I'm not inclined to believe that the Palestinians constitute an ethnic group, and I've made my opinion known at the talk page, although I'm in the minority. Secondly, the Palestinians are a nation in that they are both people who inhabit historic Palestine (and the diaspora) and who identify as Palestinian. The Maronites are not a nation, the Lebanese are, so the Palestinian scenario cannot be compared to the Maronites. Third, this discussion does not concern the Palestinians. Do you have an actual argument backed by RS that ascertains that the Maronites constitute an ethnicity? --Al Ameer (talk) 03:25, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - with 3:42:5 opinion split - we can certainly say that i'm not "the only progenitor" of an idea that Maronites are an ethno-religious group. I'm not even saying that they are, but that some strong sources indicate that a certain proportion of Maronites view themselves as a separate pre-Arab group. Some others like Ellie, view Maronites as part of the modern nationality (Lebanese/Syrians etc.). Finally some view them simply as Arabs, part of the pan-Arab nation.GreyShark (dibra) 17:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Against you there is : Elias, George, Al-Ameer, Funkmonk, Me. Thats 5:2.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:02, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, sorry for miscount. Still, 5:2 is not a complete consensus, especially that WP:RS was brought. GreyShark (dibra) 21:35, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Johney's comment should be discounted for now because it's solely based on the inapplicable argument of "Well, if x is an ethnicity then y is an ethnicity". As of yet, he has not brought forth any actual reasoning or sources supporting his position. --Al Ameer (talk) 03:25, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Attar-Aram syria you didn't count Jonney2000. I asked him to clarify his position. -Elias Z 19:36, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jonney2000 can you please clarify your position? -Elias Z 19:27, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't cry fould, but greyshark should respect the guidelines regarding "fringe views". FunkMonk (talk) 18:23, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would point out that Greyshark undid the edits of this IP... And i'm used to be suspected pro-Israeli/pro-Palestinian/pro-Syrian, pro-Kurdish. Whatever you like kids.GreyShark (dibra) 20:35, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems rather faulty to describe this religious sect as an ethnoreligious group. Granted, they certainly do identify as an ethnoreligious group, but in my search of recently published literature, they are almost always listed as a religious sect (eg [2], [3]). There are but a few 21st-century book sources that describe Maronites as an ethnoreligious group, and it is always in the context of how they identify. As this claim doesn't seem to be accepted by mainstream scholars, I agree with the other users who assert that this is a fringe view. I would support, at the very least, changing the lead text from "Maronites are often seen as an ethno-religious group" to something like "Maronites often see themselves as an ethno-religious group". Elspamo4 (talk) 08:17, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Deletion of images from infobox

Policy applies to pages about ethnic groups. By blanking the images greyshark is going against the consensus above. ~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 10:56, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure it applied to ethnic and religious groups as well. The application to national groups is more of an issue. The Maronites are a religious group and to some opinions also an ethnic group, so it is better to be applied.GreyShark (dibra) 09:29, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Sourcing and recent edits

I have reverted some recent changes that removed well-sourced content and re-inserted poorly sourced and unsourced content.

In particular, it is not acceptable to rely on this maronite-heritage.com website, as it seems to be self-published rather than scholarly or journalistic in nature. Neutralitytalk 04:01, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply] 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroniten  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.77.86.246 (talk) 10:55, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Distinguishing Maronite (ethnicity) from Maronites (religious title)

Per a discussion between myself and Maronite98 earlier, there was interest in further disambiguating the Maronite ethnoreligious grouping from the closely related but distinct usage of "Maronite" for members of the Maronite Church. These are distinct concepts, as not all Maronite Church members are ethnically Maronite and not all ethnic Maronites are religious adherents (even if there is that traditional tie). My proposal would be to change the article title to "Maronites (ethnicity)" or something of that ilk and disambiguate it with a page on Maronite Church adherents. As to Red Phoenician's point, wherein it is impossible to be a "Maronite Protestant, Maronite Muslim, Maronite Buddhist," it should be noted that a significant number of those listed as Maronites elsewhere on this Wiki are not Maronite Church members (including even on I suspect is Buddhist). I agree with Red Phoenician insofar as "Maronite" can be used as a solely religious term, but think the ethnoreligious group needs to be distinguished. ~ Pbritti (talk) 06:08, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All three footnotes regarding Maronites being an ethno-religious group should be removed. Salibi's text doesn't characterize Maronites as an ethnographic-religious group, Minahan's book doesn't substantiate his statement that Maronite are an ethno-religious group and one of his further readings actually debunks the notion, and lastly, Reyes' book is an example of citogenesis – copied previous version of this page verbatim. Maronite98 (talk) 00:04, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Maronite98 for removal of citogenesis material. Would hesitate to totally exclude discussion of their nature as a subethnic body. This source suggests that Maronites (in the context of this page) are better described as an Arab Christian community traditionally hailing from the region around Mount Lebanon who developed an explicitly ethnic identity for political ends; this is a rather useful definition. This source suggests that identity of Maronites was contingent on adherence to the Maronite Church, later transitioning into a slightly more demographic and political identity in the last couple centuries. We can discussed how to nuance the reality that this article is about an Arab Christian group without using "ethnoreligious" or similar terms. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:00, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Extremely controversial to reclassify Maronites as Arab Christians when the majority of them do not identify as such and the Maronite identity has existed long before the formation of the modern Arab one. Secondly, suppose Maronites were Arabs they would still be considered an ethnoreligious group as other groups, such as the Alawites and Druze who strongly accept an Arab identity, are still considered ethnoreligious groups because they have unique cultural and religious beliefs, just as the Maronites do. Also the replacement of the term Arabs with Muslims relating to the invasions of Lebanon is revisionist as it gives the Arabs a vague formless identity and implies that the invasion was simply a shift in religious beliefs and did not include a cultural and ethnic migration as well. Also on the identity section it's necessary to include the varying Maronite perspectives to give insight on the different political beliefs and and social reactions.
Finally on the aspect of it being a religious rite alone I agree that there is a religious rite that anyone can join as this is a fact but at the same time there is also a unique cultural aspect to Maronites as even the Patriarchate states that the Maronite rite has strong cultural ties to Lebanon. As the Maronites were isolated in Mount Lebanon for several hundred years a unique ethnic fusion took place which strongly linked the religion to the people and is partly why the distinct rite still exists and was not absorbed into the larger Latin Rite. Similar to the Jewish people in how they are also an ethnoreligious group with both a unique culture and faith, and while anyone can join the Jewish or Maronite faiths it does not dismiss eithers cultural heritage or sense of identity as an autonomous group of people.
I agree with Pbritti that there should be a distinction between the religious and ethnoreligious terms and I believe the solution to this would be to create a page for the Maronite Rite itself. For example, there is a page about the Coptic peoples and a page about the Coptic Rite. This would help to avoid confusion between the cultural group of the Maronites and the liturgical Maronite Rite. Red Phoenician (talk) 07:59, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Red Phoenician: I think there is a bit of confusion here: sources do not seem to support the status of "ethnoreligious group," particularly one that excludes "Arab Christian." Also, "rite" only refers to liturgical practice, rather than adherents. Using the word "Maronite" as a demographic term has two modern usages: Lebanese Maronites (who are traditionally linked with the Maronite Church and includes diaspora) and Maronite faithful (which has significant overlap but includes non-Lebanese; presently, this group is discussed on the page Maronite Church). Even in areas of ancient diaspora, Maronites are not referred to as an ethnic group (this source is an example). Also, we should talk about it more, but the AINA source that produces the questionably POV'd statement that accepting that modern Lebanese Maronites are partially integrated with Arab culture "would deny them their striving achievement of having fended off the Arabs and Turks physically, culturally, and spiritually" seems contradicted by most of the academic citations on this page. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:02, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have added sources to help clarify and support the claim. I do not understand the insistence of classifying them as Arabs. I agree that there are two different terms for the demographic and it would be better to define the faithful one on the Maronite Church page like you said but I still suggest a Maronite Rite page simply for practical reasons. Also I would like to point out that the Maronites as an ethnoreligious group extend beyond Lebanon in places such as Syria, Cyprus, the Holy Land, etc. So they should not all be referred to as Lebanese Maronites.
As for your claim relating to source in Cyprus it should be noted the paragraph you mentioned is about religion, showing how the Cypriots are divided into two ethnoreligious groups, Greek and Turkish, based on their differing religious and cultural beliefs. The source then adds from the "two main ethnic groups" with "three other religious groups", which includes the Maronites among others, showing the connection. Thus I do not understand how this contradicts Maronites being classified as ethnoreligious unless you are also arguing that Armenians and Levantines have no ethnic distinction from Cypriots.
For the statement on the identity part it is arguable how contradictory it is but regardless it should be mentioned as the point of including the different ideologies is to show the different beliefs and thoughts on identity and the entire section would be empty if we had to remove them for disagreeing with one another. Red Phoenician (talk) 11:28, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They should be classified as Levantine Christians. But they’re genetically, historically and culturally not a distinct ethnic group. Lebanesebebe123 (talk) 17:30, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beirut blast

User Notyourashta has repeatedly inserted the 2020 Beirut explosion in a list of incidents of persecution against Maronites. Myself and an IP editor have removed this passage but Notyourashta has violated WP:3RR to reinsert it, adding sources that fail to refer to Maronites at all, much less in a way that evidences they were victims of persecution. The reasoning that Notyourashta uses is that If Eastern Beirut was disproportionately affected, and Eastern Beirut is comprised of Levantine Christians (Maronites and Greek Orthodox) then it logically follows that they were affected disproportionately, which is generalized original research. It also doesn't make sense–the neighborhood destroyed is not described as targeted nor particularly neglected relative to the Muslim or Druze portions of Beirut. Notyourashta claims without evidence that there was targeting–and that there was a violation of the Geneva Conventions (which neither applies to this circumstance nor is applied correctly; the Halifax explosion was not a war crime). In short, unless Notyourashta or another editor can identify reliable sources that describe Maronites as targeted for persecution in the blast, I will removed the passage. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:46, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Notyourashta: Pinging as this passage will be removed a week from when I made the above. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:26, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The user above is taking a fast & loose definition with the term "persecution," and is quite frankly gatekeeping it in order to obfuscate attacks against ethnoreligious minorities. The fact that Eastern Beirut is majority Christian is not original research, it is a demonstrated and known fact. However, post-bombing, it's possible this could change. Still, it is a basic fact about Lebanon known by even the most cursory seekers of demographic information, and there are of course plenty of sources to substantiate this claim. I'd be happy to find any number of them as needed.

Merriam-Webster supplies two different definitions for persecution:

1: the act or practice of persecuting especially those who differ in origin, religion, or social outlook 2: the condition of being persecuted, harassed, or annoyed

Regardless of the syntactical concerns of the above editor, if one of these definitions can be satisfied, it should be acknowledged that this event was persecution. The user above attempts to call into question the first definition by attempting to argue the intentionality of leaving explosives in the epicenter of a small civilian Christian enclave in Beirut, an area in which the source listed acknowledged clearly that this area suffered the brunt of the devastation. Even if we were to argue how much intentionality or criminal charges, even in a Banana Republic like Lebanon, are required to consider an act against a endangered minority groups "persecution," it still doesn't rule out the second definition.

Since the bombing, Christian areas of Beirut have been raided and invaded by Amal & Hezbollah members (see: Tayyouneh Incident) several times for reasons directly related to the event, and the survivors have been consistently harangued and denied justice. I would be happy to edit the post to provide sources on these instances following the previous sources in the Wiki. I believe this would be a fair compromise. This repeated & intentional harassment clearly satisfies the pre-requisite for the term "persecution."

User above continues to change the subject by mentioning Druze & Muslim areas. It's very possible that any of these areas could have experienced targeting, however, the fact is the explosions were left on the Christian side of Beirut (the port area: Gemmayzeh, Mar Mikael, Mar Nicolas) not the southern side of Beirut (a Muslim majority area). Even then, it could be possible that other groups living in Christian areas are not Christian, in which case they would also be targeted by way of being in that area. Christian areas being targeted does not mean other groups can't potentially be subject to targeting, this is not mutually exclusive.

Further, the claim that this can not be considered a war crime is also inaccurate. Countless independent studies showcase that the ammonium nitrate came to Beirut to be used as explosive material on the side of Bashar Al Assad in the Syrian Civil War. According to Protocol on Explosive Remnants of War (Protocol V to the 1980 Convention), 28 November 2003, Article 3 Section 2: "2. After the cessation of active hostilities and as soon as feasible, each High Contracting Party and party to an armed conflict shall mark and clear, remove or destroy explosive remnants of war in affected territories under its control."

Based on this evidence, we can determine 3 key ideas:

1) The blast detonated in a Christian area of Beirut

2) The materials left in this area were left by state & non-state actors with at the minimum criminal negligence, and at the maximum, actions constituting a war crime.

3) The act against this neighborhood, particularly when contextualized within the actions that followed against survivors from this neighborhood, constitutes an act of persecution. From whom this persecution is enacted is not relevant to this change. A group of people can be persecuted by the state or by groups acting outside the state. It's still persecution.

I'm willing to provide more sources to showcase the intentional and deliberate actions taken against civilian survivors from East Beirut. Notyourashta (talk) 03:24, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Notyourashta: You can't provide more sources if you haven't provided a single one yet. Again, war crimes aren't a factor here, and you haven't sourced anything. Read WP:FIVEPILLARS for more information. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:44, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Again, incorrect. The first source provided showcases that the explosion disproportionately decimated a Christian area of Beirut, (Eastern Beirut) while the second source showcases the intentional aversion of justice / campaigns against victims. You're in luck - today, a protest occured against the judiciary in Lebanon and a sole Christian was arrested for an entire group of people who was demanding justice. This is not his first time being arrested for protesting for this. I'll be happy to begin compiling the sources that demonstrate not only harassment/persecution, but malicious intent against survivors from Eastern Beirut. Please check back within a couple days for sources that supplement the original ones.

Once again, as per the Geneva Conventions, a war crime cannot be ruled out. Leaving explosives in a civilian area, particularly those intended for use in war long after the war has ended, can constitute a war crime. The investigations are still pending. Notyourashta (talk) 22:27, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Notyourashta: I will direct you to Wikipedia's no original research on why drawing conclusions as you have above are both inaccurate and violate policy. Unfortunately, unless you can provide any sources that explicitly describe the blast as persecution of specifically Maronites, the passage will again be removed. If you need help finding sources, you can use the News tab on Google to narrow the search to more reliable outlets. ~ Pbritti (talk) 00:31, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not an ethnic group

There is not enough to separate them into their own distinct ethno group Lebanesebebe123 (talk) 17:28, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic groups

Per Wikipedia:SYNTH, those "related ethnic groups" and the source used is incorrect; the source doesn't separate Maronites individually and uses "Lebanese Christians" which includes all Lebanese Christians as a grouping, including Armenians, Greek Orthodox etc JJNito197 (talk) 22:59, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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