Talk:Triumph Bonneville T140

Special Category for British Motorcycles

As part of the Motorcycling WikProject I am working though all the missing articles and stubs for British Bikes. To make things easier to sort out there is a special Category:British motorcycles Please add to any British motorcycle pages you find or create. It will also help to keep things organised if you use the Template:Infobox Motorcycle or add it where it is missing. I've linked the Category to the Commons Motorcycles of Britain so you could help with matching pics to articles or adding the missing images to the Commons. The people behind the bikes also bring it all to life - I've created the Category:British motorcycle pioneers so please have a look and see if you can add or expand any? Thanks Thruxton (talk) 17:37, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

T140RV

I have seen some recent edits and reversions in this section and hope that I can help. I own and restored the T140E in the infobox and have also owned a T140V and T100 Daytona (500 unit twin), more importantly I have many reliable sources on the Meriden twins. The T140RV is not covered by most of them but probably the best one is:

Nelson, John (2001). Bonnie - The Development History of the Triumph Bonneville. Haynes Publishing. ISBN 0-85429-957-2.

John Nelson was Triumph's service manager for many years, what he recorded I think we should take as near to the facts as you can get. The T140RV section as it stands does not appear to be correct, there were varying engine displacements as I've seen added and removed recently. Produced for the 1974/75 model years they were apparently all built with right hand gear change (the first left hand change T140 engine was built by Triumph in July 1975 according to Nelson. There is no mention of engine modifications especially for the US market. There was also a home (UK) version of the T140RV, currently not mentioned.

I can revise the section (keeping it to an encyclopaedic level of detail) but would have to replace the current source used there. Cheers Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 20:42, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I have read the Nelson book (wish I still had it!). It definitely meets the reliable source criteria as far as I am concerned. --Biker Biker (talk) 21:07, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Strangely, two very good American book sources that I have don't appear to mention it at all, one is a guide to restoring T140s to show standard (originality and all that). It won't be quick but I will get round to it soon. The whole article is a bit 'listy', needs some history prose added in places, might be able to help with that as well. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 21:25, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Nice one. Look forward to it. --Biker Biker (talk) 22:39, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I just had a glance through and notice the article is using templates for cites, I will struggle with that. Per WP:CITEVAR they should be left but the date format is American (this is clearly an article with strong British ties). The format can be changed if there is a good reason. I suspect that some of the sources would not be deemed 'reliable' by WP standards, I could replace all of them with book references. The 'Bonneville name' section has whole sentences taken verbatim from a source, should be removed or modified quickly to comply with WP:COPYVIO.

I'm wondering whether it is necessary to repeat the name 'Bonneville' in every section header? The bikes are listed chronologically which is good and logical, it would be nice to make that clearer somehow by using date or era headers to break the list up? Just some random thoughts on improving this article. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 19:48, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Section headings - fixed. References, shout if you need help, but citing books is really easy - just put the book details in the references section at the bottom, and in the body of the text do something like <ref>Nelson, p.47</ref> or <ref>Nelson, pp.49-52</ref>. Copyvio - please fix asap if you can. --Biker Biker (talk) 00:00, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Looks better, thanks. I'm away for a couple of days so won't be able to anything. I'm quite happy with the other form of referencing (see Rolls-Royce Merlin and Rolls-Royce R), just didn't want to change from the template format unless there was consensus, there have been ANIs raised on this subject recently in the aircraft project. I think the 'Bonneville name' section is too long with unnecessary detail, trimming it would remove the copyvios. While I remember, and just as a note really, the article assumes that we know all about the T120, that can be fixed. I have more photos and can take some more for Commons (different angles, close up of the engine etc.). There was a closely related economy 650 version produced in the 1980s, might have been a single carb 'Tiger' though, can't remember (just remembered it was a 'Thunderbird'!). Another thing I'd like to do is produce a navbox, possibly for all the Triumph bikes including the modern ones. Lots to do!! Cheers. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 08:17, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I've had a go at improving things, hope everything is agreeable so far. Will chip away at it this week. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 21:24, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Done a little bit more, I've noticed a fairly large omission, reference to the Triumph TR7 Tiger (a single carb T140) is missing and we have no article on it (it could be covered here quite easily). Something else that strikes me as strange is that this bike is virtually always known in references as the 'Triumph T140 Bonneville' (not Triumph Bonneville T140), there is an apparent mixture in Category:Triumph motorcycles of how the articles are named.Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 00:18, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I've done a bit more researching and have got a lot of reference material which should hopefully help clear up the history of the T140RV, this quote from an article by Charles Deane in the March 1973 edition of motorcycle mechanics.

Part of this rationalisation in the range was the introduction of the 750 Bonneville twin, which, although originally intended for 'export only', caused so much interest among visitors to the two recent motorcycle shows, that Triumph decided to put the bike on the home market.

I've got scans of several pages from 1972 and 1973 regarding the 5 speed 650/750 triumphs should I just upload them? TiumphTR7RV (talk) 20:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Old Info Available

The 1972 advertisments for the 750 (export only) TR7/T140 are now on flickr, can someone else take a look at these and start to update the page here regarding the information contained in them as I don't really feel experienced enough with updating yet not to make a complete mess of it all:).

the links are

Triumph ad Dec 1972 http://www.flickr.com/photos/61574084@N07/5605090544/

for the introduction of the 5 speed gearbox there is this one although its only for the 650's Triumph ad Jul 1972 http://www.flickr.com/photos/61574084@N07/5605090618/

For the other articles from MCM i will post page numbers and references instead of posting scans as they are probably still under copyright, where as i feel these ads in the mag are fair use to use to help define the history of these triumphs. TriumphTR7RV (talk) 03:57, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Break

I would think that they are copyright protected and may get deleted after upload unless they were licensed correctly. Can you tell us here (on this talk page) what the main differences between the T140V and T140RV were according to Motorcycle Mechanics? We can use the magazine as a citation reference, I just hope it doesn't conflict with the other references!! I have found a reference to a higher compression ratio for the 'RV' (8.6 instead of 7.9) and another minor difference of a doubled throttle cable (positive closing regulation?). Another little mystery is that the T140J 'Jubilee' model is described by John Nelson as the 'T140V Bonneville 140 Jubilee model', i.e. not a 'J'?!!

My Triumph mechanic confirmed to me today that it had the designation of T140J and not T140V or T140RJ, while not proof per definition, it does cast further doubt on John Nelson's use of the T140V id for the jubilee model. I'll keep my eyes open on ebay for any engine numbers the next time (if) a jubilee comes up for sale. TriumphTR7RV (talk) 22:44, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Slightly worried that the level of detail in this article could become unencyclopaedic if much more is added but we should at least make sure that what is here is as accurate as possible and I've been working on that. Cheers Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 21:14, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

There is no need to upload scans of magazine articles - if you have the magazine title, publication date (and/or volume & issue number), page number, author etc. then that is good enough for a citation. Citations don't need to be uploadable, just verifiable - so with those details anyone who has access to a magazine's back catalogue (perhaps through a public library) could easily verify the contents. --Biker Biker (talk) 00:45, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll check with some people in the know about the Jubilee version, I saw one on ebay a while back, should have taken a copy of the engine/frame number. Calling it the T140VJ may have been a solution but then again VJ day has diferent meanings, especially when marketing your product against japaneese motorcycles. As regarding the difference between the 73 T140RV and the T140V, I can't find any reference to support the existence of a T140V in 1973. I need to do more research to find out, I have seen somewhere that the T140V was originally the same as the T120V but with a 727cc engine, I have a feeling it's on the '100 years of triumph dvd' which I'll have to get back from the triumph mechanic I lent it too. I've got a great scan from motorcycle mechanincs DEC 1972 showing Triumphs advertisment for the upcoming january 1973 earls court motor cycle show, I may try and place that under the fair usage doctrine. TiumphTR7RV (talk) 20:11, 6 April 2011 (UTC) I've created a new acount with the correct spelling of Triumph, did'nt want to have that Tiumph account kind of sounded like i had a jonathen ross R:) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TriumphTR7RV (talk • contribs) 21:20, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I did spot a Washington USA based T140V AH (A = January, H= 1973) on ebay today so I'm not going mad I hope, I also asked my Triumph mechanic today about the early 750's and if there were any T140V's made or if they were all RV's, funnily enough he thought they only made the V version in '73, but I told him I'd seen one on ebay with the engine number T140RV DH (D = April, H= 1973), He was not entirly sure, but he did say that the early 73 T140's he'd worked on all had a capacity of 724cc. This is indeed a puzzle that is not going to be easy to solve, keep digging I guess. TriumphTR7RV (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Good stuff, according to Nelson the 724cc engines were from JH to XH, produced as both T140V and T140RV, I'm still not quite sure what the 'R' means but going back to 1961 the 'R' meant 'Road model' for the US T120 and later it stood for 'Road sports'. I've got all the factory manuals and parts catalogues on CD and original hard copies of the T140 owner's and workshop manual but I can't find any of them at the moment!! The Flickr images are useful but we can't use them to cite anything (strange but true), I've been down that road at WT:RS before. The T140V was produced and sold in England, again according to Nelson, from 1973 to 1978 when it was replaced by the 'E'. My T140V was a 1977 model with (presumably left over) Jubilee engine cases as they were chrome plated. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 20:11, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Article balance, The technical problems vs good bits!

I think we have a very factual article now but it is quite 'dry' perhaps. It doesn't say that it is good or that it is bad either (my T140 is both at the same time!). Excuse me for jotting some reminders but I can think of a lot of negative points, some have briefly been covered already, some might not be able to be referenced:

• Oil leaks
• Electrical problems (switchgear, complete failures, bulb failures caused by vibration).
• Vibration (it's the only bike I know that can move backwards on the centre stand!).
• Blowing exhaust downpipes (push-in type, later redesigned back to the earlier type).
• Lack of ground clearance (later bikes modified with raised footrests and exhausts).
• Sticking clutch (must be cleared by holding the clutch in and kicking over until free).
• Modern operation on unleaded fuel (pinking)
• Broken rear wheel spokes.

Good bits:

• Fairly sure that it was voted 1978 or 79 Motor Cycle News 'Machine of the year', must be able to find a cite for that somewhere.

Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:26, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

It's so good to have passionate and knowledgable people working on Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorcycling. Perhaps you and TiumphTR7RV should join the project and take a look at some of our other articles. --Biker Biker (talk) 23:40, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Cheers, I am a member of the project but I've been concentrating on aircraft and their engines for the last couple of years. I can certainly help with the Meriden Triumph articles. There is one photo of a TR7 Tiger on Commons, I'm not sure if the type can have its own article as it really was just a single carburettor T140 but we do have the Triumph Tiger Trail. The navbox would be really useful, perhaps we should discuss how to build it on the project talk page. I've created many navboxes so I'm happy with the formatting. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 09:56, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The Triumph Tiger TR7 should have it's own page I guess, the reason being that the TR range of triumphs have different origins, perhaps they came together in the end with the T120/TR6 but essentially they have different roots. TriumphTR7RV (talk) 21:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the The technical problems vs good bits, the march 73 article in motor cycle mechanincs (MCM) talks about the pro's and con's of the 750 twin and i quote...

Handeling and breaking are its best feature and must earn an excellent nine out of 10!

One of the marvellous things about our test machine was that as far as I can remember it is the first time we've had a British bike on test which didn't show a trace of oil on the outside of the engine at the end of the test!

TriumphTR7RV (talk) 21:59, 6 April 2011 (UTC)