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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by QEDK (talk | contribs) at 16:14, 6 May 2019 (→RfC: Proposal to make TfD more RM-like, as a clearinghouse of template discussions: te). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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XFD backlog
V Jul Aug Sep Oct Total
CfD 0 0 0 7 7
TfD 0 0 0 5 5
MfD 0 0 4 0 4
FfD 0 0 0 0 0
RfD 0 0 0 57 57
AfD 0 0 0 0 0

RfC: Proposal to make TfD more RM-like, as a clearinghouse of template discussions

 Passes: The proposal passes with almost unanimous consensus. The general intent is to move towards a RM-like process where discussions are held on talk pages. No further consensus was reached on exact procedures. --qedk (t 桜 c) 16:02, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should we make TfD more RM-like, as a clearinghouse of template discussions? 05:12, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

We have four issues (at least) that are combining in a negatively synergistic way:

  1. There's a WP:PROCESSFORK of sorts between coding (and discussing) templates versus doing so with modules, despite the latter being an adjunct to the former.
  2. Few editors care to participate and watchlist in either namespace, but it's probably at least an order magnitude lower for Module namespace.
  3. The editors involved in implementing and maintaining modules are a much smaller and more self-selecting group. While this is necessary when it comes to directly changing the code, it's an unproductive narrowing when it comes to decision-making and consensus formation.
  4. Templates are being converted into Lua modules without good reason, making them further developable by a far smaller number of editors; such conversions need broader discussion on a case-by-case basis.

Overall, getting stuff done in Template and Module namespaces is taking longer and longer, with more inconsistent results. Particular individuals deeply involved in modules have much more personal control over Module space than Template space, and our "geeks" in general (especially those with the TemplateEditor user level) have more control over both namespaces compared to main (article) or project ("Wikipedia:") namespaces – which leads to problems even with the best of intentions. In the "Extended discussion" section below I've outlined some examples (and I do so as someone with the TemplateEditor permission bit; this is not a sour-grapes "class struggle" between user levels).

A possible solution: The status quo seems likely to continue (or worsen) if an explicit change isn't made. WP:Templates for discussion (TfD) should serve as more of a "clearinghouse" of template and module changes (like how WP:RM works for proposed moves), not just as an XfD process; this will draw additional editorial attention to template and module matters. It should be as simple as having a {{subst:tfd-thread}} template and bot that adds RM-style pointers to the WP:TFD log, directing people to Template_talk and Module_talk discussions, in addition to the existing "settle it here at TfD" deletion and merger entries. I think this would both even out the discrepancies between Template and Module namespaces in "getting the work done", and also give the WP community much more say into how its templating system operates. It's also consistent with TfD's rename several years ago to "Templates for discussion" not "deletion". It would be a new norm that any potentially controversial template/module change proposals should be listed in this manner, the way potentially controversial moves are listed at RM. (As with manual moves and WP:RM/TR, trivial fixes need not be so listed – if you need to fix an obvious typo in a template, just do it; this is not a bureaucracy.)
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:12, 27 February 2019 (UTC); links added 10:42, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

TFD is full of discussion about deletions and mergers. Most of those discussions are rightly non-technical -- nobody needs to know how to code even a navbox to know that a navbox with >1300 links is way too big or that one with 2 bluelinks is too small. Just as most of the topics are non-technical, most of the participants are not technical.
TFD is already quite busy. Plenty of days in March had over 40 deletion discussions.
So what this proposal would do is dump the "experts assess how to do this" issues into the already-busy workspace of the "should we do this at all" discussions. That's an oil-and-water combination, not helpful for either oil or water.
Additionally, adopting an RM style format would involve moving deletion discussions to the talk pages of templates which might be deleted ... so we'd end up either deleting those discussions along with the template, or retaining a mound of talk pages with no corresponding template.
It would be much better to create a new page with an RM-style centralised log page for the technical discussions, and leave the deletions/merges/renamings at TFD. That way the geeks wouldn't be tripping over debates about whether to zap the navbox Template:My neighbour's ex-husband's second cousin's abysmal garage band, and the navbox debaters wouldn't be wading through discussions about the intricacies of Lua code .. but the geeks would finally get that much-needed clearinghouse for geek issues. We could call it something like "WP:Requested coding". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:39, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment (Disclosure: I'm a template editor and converted the WP:Automated taxobox system to Lua.) I agree with BrownHairedGirl that it's important to distinguish between discussions about the purpose and functions of modules and discussions about their technical details and coding. I can't either support or oppose the proposal because I don't think it's clear what it entails. It would be a new norm that any potentially controversial template/module change proposals should be listed in this manner – is converting a template's inner working to Lua to be considered potentially controversial if it makes no change to either the parameters of the template or its behaviour? If so, this would be a proposal that I would strongly oppose. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:22, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Some kind of process like described can be very helpful as it can help in situations where low participation can block changes with WP:OWN issues. --Gonnym (talk) 13:38, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Extended discussion

While I've been thinking about this for a few year, this was more immediately spurred by a comment at a particular module fix-it request:On a more general note, the fact that this request took three months to get executed is exactly why I think there is far too much use of lua and go around TfDing modules. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 05:05, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

I certainly agree in general. There have been other cases where it's taken much, much longer, including when only Template-namespace, not Module-namespace, code was involved. Ex.: Despite it being stark raving obvious, it took over two years and a pointless RfC to get Template:YesNo fixed to support values of on and off. This did not happen because there was any legit reason to stall or oppose. Rather, some TemplateEditors are excessively wary about blame (declining even simple requests if they don't see a prior discussion about it), and some editors who fancy themselves TemplateEditor candidates have no idea what they're talking about, and will make bogus (like, utterly disproven) claims about server/parser efficiency (adding a single pair of #switch cases has no measurable impact on performance, and we have templates, like for railway lines, album/singles chart stats, and post-nominal letters, with hundreds of #switch options, sometimes in nested levels of templating).

Rarely, it's actually been easier to add options to a module than a template, including in this very case, at Module:Yesno. However this can (and in that case did) easily result in an undesirable WP:TEMPLATEFORK, with the module version supporting options (e.g. T and F) not supported in the old-school template edition, for no actual reason other than probably another round of WP:DRAMA at the template talk page with the tiny handful of people trying to over-control it. This is also an example of the unhelpful forking of template and module editors (and non-code-editing concerned parties) into WP:FACTION nonsense across namespace lines (not out of any kind of ill will, but just as a consequence of isolation from broader community input).

Usually, it's the other way around, due to the larger and broader participation in Template_talk than in Module_talk. Ex.: Implementing consistent hatnote-style italicized cross-reference templates that work inline instead of being indented and on their own line has been simple, as templates. Getting this implemented in Module-space has been like pulling teeth from a smilodon because of WP:IDONTLIKEIT antics by some self-appointed gatekeepers; it took an actual code fork to do it, despite the modules being identical except for one or two lines.

We had a similar "gatekeepers" problem for several years in which two or three individuals had near-total control over MediaWiki namespace (where the CSS and JavaScript live), defying changes they didn't personally agree with – even when consensus was against them and when what they wanted produced WP:ACCESSIBILITY problems, WP:MOS rendering style conflicts, etc. Yet they remained convinced they were doing The Right Thing, mostly based on their subjective sense of what other websites have in their own house style, or (much worse) based on nothing but what WHATWG has browsers do by default (browsers made by members of that small consortium, anyway). One of them ended up just quitting the project after being overruled a few times, and this mostly brought the WP:CONLEVEL / WP:OWN / WP:VESTED] problem to an end at those pages (though the ability to just go change them willy-nilly has of course been locked down tighter with the InterfaceAdmin bit). But it should never have happened in the first place, and it's incrementally happening again in Module space. This will not do.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:12, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Any chance of an executive summary? Did you mention WT:Lua? It's likely that a request for technical assistance at WT:Lua (say to fix Module:Zh) would get a reasonably fast response. Johnuniq (talk) 06:06, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion appears to be about multiple things. The extended discussion portion appears to be about how long it takes to get simple things done, but the first example did not appear to use an edit request template, and the second example used such a template, had an objection, and the objection was not responded to. In both cases, the onus is on the person who wants the change to draw attention to the change and to show consensus for the change.
As for some TemplateEditors are excessively wary about blame, I am absolutely one of those template editors who is wary of changes, and I do not consider wariness excessive in cases where I have never seen the template before, let alone seen it used, and where there are zero or limited testcases to illustrate the suggested change. Templates are often used in many pages, and changes can have unexpected effects. When an edit request appears on a template that I have never visited, and I see no discussion about the change other than the request, I am unlikely to make the change unless I trust the requester's reputation or the change is transparently harmless; as the editor making the change, I am responsible for the edit and its effects. Again, the onus is on the requester to do a bit of work beforehand. As someone who frequently responds to edit requests, I have found that it is the rare request that has been sandboxed and tested, let alone discussed. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:31, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jonesey95: Given your comment above, as well as the high(er) number of watchers on this page, can someone please take a look at Template talk:Single-purpose account#Template-protected edit request on 26 February 2019 - both sandboxed and tested --DannyS712 (talk) 07:40, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree with Jonesey95, I understand the concern over blame, as looking at code that you aren't familiar with or a template that you don't know what it does, it is something hard to understand the overall impact of a change. If we look at the 2 current examples of template edit requests, one is following the guidelines on how to ask for one, while the other just mentions the issue, leaving the research work to whoever responds to the request. I also think that the resistance in creating a consistent coding style makes changing (and reading) other editors code even harder. --Gonnym (talk) 08:27, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jonesey95 and Gonnym: As a TE myself, I would suggest that the appropriate response when you are uncertain is to leave the edit request unanswered, so that someone more familiar with the template/module in question can address it later, rather than marking it answered but declined out of simply uncertainty/unawareness. There's a major meaningful difference between "I don't know" and "I'm certain this requires closer examination by the community". (This is a variant of the WP:IDONTKNOWIT principle.) Another solution, of course, is to actually find out – see how the template is used, how much it is used, what it is doing step-by-step in the code, what its talk page may say about why it is written the way it is, etc., etc. There's not really a rationale for "I don't know and refuse to bother to find out."  :-) I regularly resolve template editing requests by taking the time. Probably the majority of them have been at templates I wasn't intimately familiar with when I arrived at them. It's work, but it's one of the reasons this is an advanced user-right. Being a page-mover, file-mover, edit-filter-manager, or admin also generally entails judgement and direct experience, which are arrived at by effort.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:12, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So, you proposing to get rid of any centralized hub where templates can be deleted or discussed? And admins will need to jump from one talk page to another one to find the specific discussion instead of just looking at a single page? What will happen with the holding cell? What will happen with archives as with this change there will be no way to just look at one page and read all discussion that happened on a particular date? Ruslik_Zero 08:46, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ruslik0 I'm not sure who this is in response to. The proposal here says the exact opposite of "get rid of any centralized hub where templates can be deleted or discussed"; rather, it's an aim to make TfD do this more broadly, as a centralized hub to at least find template/module discussions that are not only about deletions and mergers; TfD's more traditional functions would be completely unaffected.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:12, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've been thinking about a similar (if not the same problem) in that, because template editors are generally conservative (being one of them) because our templates and modules are usually highly-used, and the standard edit page requires an edit request, which requires a consensus, we do need some better way to generate input (not per se consensus). This is not a problem isolated to templates and modules however. All pages behind a protection have this issue as well. I regularly reject some proposed changes in the semi-protection queue as being inappropriate because they don't have consensus for change. --Izno (talk) 14:21, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Izno Right. And the gist of this proposal is that we actually have a centralized protection/unprotection queue. This proposal is to have TfD serve, in part, a similar purpose for templates/modules changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SMcCandlish (talk • contribs)
I think I'd have to see what this looks like. Are you thinking a section on each day's TFD page which is "Discussions started February 28" and then a bulleted list? I think that would be interesting/valuable, though it almost duplicates the template-protected edit table that AnomieBot does, it would allow for the kind of discussion I'm thinking. --Izno (talk) 04:55, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That would work for me. I don't have a particular layout vision in mind. A difference from AnomieBot's table is it would include discussions about more than {{edit template-protected}} requests.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:44, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is far too much use of lua and [so I] go around TfDing modules. -- 3xpery - how obnoxious. It's a crusade and not good behavior for anything on Wikipedia. It's funny, on the one hand they say only a small number of people use Lua. But in reality more and more people are using Lua, and more Modules are being created all the time. To which they respond, there are too many Lua modules. It's crazy! -- GreenC 14:38, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
GreenC as modules and templates that I write are a frequent target of Pppery's clean-up campaigns, I sympathise. However, for creation of articles, we have firmly established criteria of notability as the threshold required, but when it comes to templates and modules, there is virtually no bar on creation, and little consensus on standards or criteria for deletion or merging. I am sometimes guilty of thinking "I'll just knock up a solution to this in a module (or template)" with scant regard for what might already be available, thus increasing the proliferation of modules and templates. It's a truism that having built a better mouse-trap, nobody will be beating a path to your door if they don't know the mouse-trap exists.
I'd like to see solutions to the problems caused by the lack of policies on creating, naming, organising, merging and deleting modules and templates; and to the problem of organising and advertising what's currently available in the area. That will need a lot more discussion. --RexxS (talk) 16:04, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
GreenC, see also [[User:|Pppery]]'s own comments below. I think you're misreading and assuming the worst without evidence. Pppery isn't anti-Lua, but just shares a concern about unnecessary complication with insufficient discussion. Note that Pppery even defends the Lua-ization of Module:Yesno, one of my examples (though I wasn't actually criticizing that particular conversion, but rather the later forking of functionality between versions due to lack of cohesive discussion, the kind of thing this proposal would help resolve).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:12, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I actually do consider myself anti-Lua, but don't hold the extremist view that all Lua modules are bad. My position is that Lua modules should only exist if there is some specific reason that the code in question needs to be in Lua rather than Wikitext, and furthermore Lua modules should be generalized rather than focused on one specific case. Many Lua modules in existence fail these standards, and I then TfD them. But this is veering a bit off-topic from the proposal. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 03:33, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem of how few module coders there are is largely a problem about documentation and helping newcomers to code. The solution is to encourage new editors in the module namespace. It would not surprise me that some of those simple modules are made from users that are new to the module namespace. Very few users can just jump to the level of writing a complex module. Look at phabricator. There is a reason why bugs are marked as easy and suggested to new developers.
Many modules are used on multiple pages or are complex. Updating those is going to cause either many updates in the job queue or take a bit longer per page to update. Changing that practise is not going to happen, but I would welcome any well thought attempt to improve ways to generate input.--Snaevar (talk) 21:45, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Snaevar: I don't agree that encouraging more editors in Module space is "the" solution. We're here to write an encyclopedia, not learn new general-purpose programming languages. While no one's going to be harmed by learning Lua, of course, it's not the point and doing so should not be an effective barrier to entry, or a discouragement, to helping determine consensus on what our templates are doing and why, from an editorial standpoint.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:12, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SMcCandlish: Module:Yesno isn't an undesirable template fork, see Template talk:Yesno#Switch to lua. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, it supports "T" and "F" because CRwikiCA edit-requested that they be added in 2015 but never made a request to add them to the template. As to the general merit of the proposal, it seems like a reasonable idea (but may exasperate the template limit issues). {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 22:08, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Mr. Stradivarius, the editor who declined the Template:Yesno request based on performance, isn't a editor[] who fanc[ies] [himself] a TemplateEditor candidate[], but rather an admin. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 22:12, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Pppery:, I didn't suggest that all Lua conversions are undesirable (though someone above thinks you think they are!). Plenty of them are vast improvements, but as a general matter they need broader discussion than they've been getting. If we had a more efficient and inclusive process, then adding a feature to a module and its corresponding non-Lua template variants would be much more likely to be consistent, without depending on any single editor to "auto-know" that the variants exist; more brains in situ would likely ferret out other places to implement conforming changes. We also have a conflict involving WP:CONSENSUS, WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY, WP:PROCESS: A consensus discussion is what it is; it's helpful process to centralize certain kinds of them to some extent (to get more eyeballs on them), but it's not helpful to treat a discussion as meaningless because a specific template wasn't used, or because a specific individual dropped out of the discussion. An idea should proceed or be rejected on its own merits, and this happens best when more editors are involved, which is what this proposal is about.

Side matters: The problem of people making bogus efficiency arguments is a general one; the fact that in one case someone who should know better did it doesn't affect the overall issue, and he was not the only one to raise the idea in discussions relating to YesNo. (Nor does being an admin confer technical knowledge automatically.) Let's not get hung up on nit-picks; this proposal is about an overall site-wide issue, not three particular cases.

PS: I'm not sure what "may exasperate the template limit issues" refers to in the context of the proposal as a whole; maybe that's actually about YesNo details?
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:12, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@SMcCandlish: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion is currently very close to ending up in Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded, and I've had to resort to several hacky fixes to keep it out of that category (see #Page Size Exceeded below). Adding even more content to it would make it harder to deal with that issue. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 03:18, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Noted. I'll go over that other thread and catch up.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:21, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Done. This is it right here: "Do we really need to be transcluding ALL tfds onto one page?" Obviously, the answer is "no" (WP:AFD and WP:CFD don't, and instead provide a by-day index; WP:MFD and WP:RFD do as TfD does, but they are comparatively quite short). I also have to observe that one proposed solution, "What about just a link to the currently open discussions?", is remarkably in line with my own proposal. TfD should be a way to get to discussions, like RM is, not a monolithic pile of entire discussions. It could also be by-day as AfD and CfD are; they're not mutually exclusive. RM includes the opening statements of each RM listing, since it's templated that way, and this is an idea worth considering for TfD, both as to what I'm proposing and perhaps as to its current "in house" deletion/merger discussions; or go ahead and display all the !voting for the within-TfD merge/delete threads, but not for those being, per this proposal, cross-referenced from other talk pages in Template_talk or Module_talk.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, I agree that there needs to be more of a connection between templates and modules in terms of discussions, deletions, etc., so to that extent I support the proposal.
It does concern me though that there's an "anti-Lua" flavour to some of the comments above. As one who works with both the template language and Lua, I am very aware that for complex problems, Lua is vastly easier to write and to maintain. Yes, you need to learn Lua, but it's much easier to read and write than the template language whenever the problem requires complex control statements. If you look back at the history of templates, they started off as a way of using "boilerplate text" and later developed into a poor quality programming language. Ingenious editors (Smith609 is a great example with the automated taxobox system) managed to use templates to do things they were never designed to do. But they always did them badly.
So we should be clear about the value of each approach. The template language is valuable for straightforward uses, such as those which avoid repeating text, with limited control logic involved. Use Lua for cases where complex if/then logic or repetition is needed. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:34, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fair points. Nothing here's intended as "anti-Lua". Lua does have more of a learning curve, and the concern is that a) conversion of templates to modules without any actual gain in functionality or noticeable efficiency isn't helpful, and b) conversion of high-use templates into modules without discussion (and often with idiosyncratic functionality changes or mismatches) is probably also contra-indicated. But that's only a small part of this; it's mostly about discussion centralization like we have for other things.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:42, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hide tfd-inline for unregistered users

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Currently Template:Infobox U.S. state is nominated for TfD, and as a result every single U.S. state (e.g. California) has a notice saying ‹ The template Infobox U.S. state is being considered for deletion. › Now as an editor, I appreciate the notification, but for the vast majority of our readers that the TfD discussion has very little to do with, it looks ugly and unprofessional (and certainly unacceptable for a featured article like Oklahoma). Infoboxes by their very nature are highly trafficked, and I don't think it is useful to serve up a deletion notice to every one of those visitors. Is there a way to display it only for logged in users? -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:37, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@King of Hearts: maybe we should wrap the notices with class=autoconfirmed-show and take advantage of MediaWiki:Group-autoconfirmed.css. If implemented properly, this would hide tfd notices from all non-confirmed users --DannyS712 (talk) 04:21, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging users who participated in the previous (to my knowledge) discussion about TfD tag visibility: @Xaosflux, Jc86035, Uanfala, Thryduulf, Verdy p, Fornaeffe, Jo-Jo Eumerus, and George Ho: {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a pretty good idea to only show only to autoconfirmed/users (one can use user-show to only display to logged-in users using MediaWiki:Group-user.css). Would hide the notice from 99% of people who don't even know what a template is but display it to 99% of people who actually would comment on a Tfd/understand what is going on. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:12, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Non autoconfirmed users who are interested in our processes do exist; it's been a Wikipedia philosophy for a long time. Besides, maintenance tags are a common sight, one non-problematic tag is surely not a problem. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 07:16, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Jo-Jo. Not every person interested always logs in when they read Wikipedia. Some people (e.g. me) read Wikipedia on mobile devices logged in to a different account to their main editing one, and the possible deletion of a template could be what causes a new editor to start editing. Also per the comments in the last discussion. If deleting a template causes problems then perhaps consider whether the template should be nominated for deletion in first place. Thryduulf (talk) 07:37, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Thryduulf. Openness to editing and the fact that we're unfinished (and may improve) is one of our core principles as an encyclopedia. I don't see a convincing reason to hide these templates. In addition they are only attached for a relatively short period of time and really aren't that disruptive. --Tom (LT) (talk) 10:53, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It appears that I missed Redrose64 in my previous list of pings. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 13:07, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as a step in the right direction. TfD notices aren't much use anyway: their intended audience is the editors who use the templates concerned but they instead reach the people (most of whom are not editors) that happen to be looking at the articles that use the template. These two sets of people: the ones that the message is intended for and the ones that it actually reaches, are different, and it's only by a fluke that there might occasionally be a tiny bit of overlap. Even removing all tfd messages altogether is unlikely to make a massive difference to participation, and hiding them from unregistered users is unlikely to make a difference at all: I don't buy the argument that a casual reader might be tempted to become an editor by seeing a notice for what is probably wikipedia's most arcane deletion venue. – Uanfala (talk) 16:15, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose this has long been established as Wikipedia policy. At the VERY LEAST this would require a much broader RFC. --Zackmann (Talk to me/What I been doing) 16:39, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as the arguments presented above to not show (to non-editors and a few editors) are much more compelling than those to show. If editors are particularly interested in knowing about TFDs there are many other ways (watchlisting templates, looking at wikiproject alerts, looking at TFD). DexDor (talk) 17:05, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note Given Zackmann08's comment about needing a wider audience (which I agree with) I've made this into an RfC . Thryduulf (talk) 17:12, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – I agree with Uanfala that this is a step in the right direction. After almost 20 years, the encyclopedia isn't as unfinished as it once was, and "the encyclopedia anyone can edit" isn't as novel of an idea as it once was. People know they can edit Wikipedia; I doubt that a TfD notice will prompt new editors to start editing. Anyway, do we really want completely new users voting in TfDs? The inconvenience for those editors who use alternate accounts that are not registered or autoconfirmed doesn't strike me as a reason to show TfD notices to millions of readers. Leviv ich 17:52, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I see no worthwhile reason to hide such information from anyone.--Paul McDonald (talk) 18:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose You are falsely equating "users who are not logged in/autoconfirmed" and "readers". {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 18:54, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as the previous talk about TfD notices, I prefer if Wikipedia doesn't not show notices at all in pages where the template is used, except from the template pages. I think an editor interested in that templates will probably visit their pages and find the TfD discussion, while any other users (i think about 99,9%) would only be bothered by the notice, and (99%) does not know what a "template" is, or (0,9%) doesn't care about the deletion/merging. But almost all users care about readability of wikipedia pages. However, hide tfd-inline for unregistered users could be a quite fine solution, IMHO. 100% agree with Uanfala and Levivich.Fornaeffe (talk) 21:36, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It's arbitrary to single out TfD template messages. --Bsherr (talk) 23:24, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • If this proposal passes, then TfD's will get advertised in exactly the same way that all other XfD's are advertised: by a message at the top of the page concerned. TfD is the odd one out at the moment: advertising a discussion on every page that transcludes a template is without parallel elsewhere; I'm trying to imagine what the same system could look like when applied to articles, placing AfD notifications on all pages that link to the nominated article? – Uanfala (talk) 23:48, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Templates are primarily encountered through their transclusion onto another page. Thus the existing system of transcluding an abbreviated deletion template message with every transclusion of the template is actually parallel to how deletion template messages appear in other namespaces. Not transcluding that deletion template message with templates is, for other namespaces, actually akin to placing the deletion template message only on the talk page instead of the subject page (thus, in both instances, one page removed, so to speak). But also, I didn't only mean singled out in relation to other deletion processes, but also other template messages. --Bsherr (talk) 00:13, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Unregistered editors are not prohibited from participating in XFDs, hence, they must not be prevented from being made aware of those XFDs. Also, our readers are potentially our editors of the future. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:34, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opppose since there is not a technical difference between "readers" and "IP Editors" to differentiate upon. If someone wants to propose never transcluding TFD tags at all, that is a different discussion to be had. — xaosflux Talk 00:48, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose (invited by Legobot) -- per the opposes above. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 04:57, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    ...and below. :) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:22, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Displaying these sort of notices to non-editors is a good thing! It's easy to just be a consumer of the encyclopedia and not even think about editing (there's a lot here) but showing messages like this to readers increases the chance that someone will be curious and join in. It may not all be great, but deletion notices are probably one of the best "advertisements" we have for non-editors that they can edit. It's a (hopefully welcoming) invitation, and we should encourage it. I'm against this, whether for just inline TfD or anything else, and if we hid them would support unhiding them. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 11:18, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose (Summoned by bot) Per above, could invite people to edit Wikipedia. SemiHypercube 11:23, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support TfD notices are very often just not relevant to the articles they show up at. Tags like {{unreferenced}} and {{copyedit}} are inviting (in a sense), but TfD notices are confusing. If they have to be shown, what about showing them below the templates instead of at the top? Currently these notices are one of the first thing you see when opening an article with an infobox. – Þjarkur (talk) 01:26, 29 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hey guys.

I made an infobox draft for law enforcement units as shown here. I had a talk with someone who has voiced the use of the military unit infobox to illustrate law enforcement units such as police tactical units and the like.

So I did have a talk with the user and agreed to do this one. Except that this is a draft and I wish to bounce some ideas. I looked at it now and it seems that I'll have to remove anything related to military stuff since this proposed infobox will be for LE units/divisions that are under civilian police control.

Appreciate any thoughts on this.

Ominae (talk) 08:09, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cross-posted/transcluded to WT:WPT. Primefac (talk) 10:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
How is this different from Template:Infobox law enforcement agency? – Jonesey95 (talk) 10:57, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Primefac.
Jonesay95, I'm trying to specifically boil it down to make it to a specific division within law enforcement (civilian) agencies? I've seen wiki pages of police units using the military unit infobox and I think that it's not the proper infobox to use. Ominae (talk) 13:23, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Currently revising it. Ominae (talk) 11:12, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on templates storing data

This section is transcluded from Wikipedia talk:Template namespace. (edit | history)


UPDATE: Proposal for law enforcement infobox for specialist units

Hello.

I was busy updating the template proposal for a separate infobox for law enforcement specialist units (e.g. SWAT units, etc...)

Though there wasn't much reception, I was wondering if [the LEA infobox] should just be strictly implemented at all. Ominae (talk) 03:52, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

NAC delete closes

Can I non-admin close a TfD as delete if there are no transclusions to orphan?

Background (copied from User talk:JJMC89)
Hi. I wanted to ask you about this edit with the summary revert delete closes done contrary to WP:NACD. I realize that I made a mistake with the tagging of the category for deletion, but can you explain how this is contrary to NACD? Thanks, --DannyS712 (talk) 01:06, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@DannyS712: The relevant part of NACD is below. Those closes only required deletion, not orphaning, so a non-admin should not close them as delete.
  • Non-administrators should limit their closes to outcomes they have the technical ability to implement; for example, non-admins should not close a discussion as delete, because only admins can delete pages.
    • Exception: a non-administrator may close a TfD as orphan.
Additionally, itAs an aside, such closes just makes more work for admins since WP:XFDC can't be used if the discussion is already closed. — JJMC89 02:09, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@JJMC89: I have read that policy, and have observed other non-admin closes. I have realized that "orphan" means "delete once all transclusions are removed". For the relevant background, See Special:Diff/695098674, where the TfD exception was first added to NACD, Special:Diff/716267935, where it was partially corrected, and Wikipedia talk:Templates for discussion/Archive 19#RfC: Proposal to allow non-admin "delete" closures at TfD, which proposed that non admins be allowed to close TfDs as delete (Consensus in favor of this proposal would interpret the WP:NACD guideline as permitting delete closures of uncontroversial discussions by experienced editors where enacting the short-term outcome is within the technical ability of non-administrators.) and was closed as consensus in favor of implementing that idea (However, there is clear support for at least trying out the alternative proposal. I recommend looking into a trial of the orphan/CSD mechanism, and if this fails to resolve the issue then the first question can be revisited.). Since the templates were already orphans, the CSD mechanism applied. There is no evidence that the closes are limited to orphan only when templates are still transcluded, and since orphaning a template is the same as marking it ready for deletion, I merely skipped the step of listing it as "to orphan" and then immediately moving it as ready for deletion and tagging the templates individually. While I understand you point about XFDC, I don't believe that you desire to use it warrants undoing my close with a summary that says I violated a wikipedia guideline. In short, as far as I can tell you reverted my close claiming I violated a guideline that I believe I followed, and then proceeded to make the same close yourself. --DannyS712 (talk) 02:18, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Orphaning a template is just removing all tranclusions. It is a prerequisite for deletion. Something that has no tranclsuions does not require orphaning, thus NAC is not permitted. The initial proposal in that RfC (delete NACs) did not have consensus, only the alternative proposal, which allowed orphan NACs. XFDC was just an aside about increasing the amount of work needed and had nothing to do with reverting your close. (Clarified above.) — JJMC89 05:41, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@JJMC89: Would you be okay with moving this discussion to WT:TFD? I disagree with your interpretation, and believe that NACs can close a discussion as delete even when there are no transclusions. --DannyS712 (talk) 07:26, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
NACD would just say Exception: a non-administrator may close a TfD as orphandelete. if that were the case. Discussing the interpretation of NACD there is fine. — JJMC89 21:41, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@JJMC89: discussion copied. --DannyS712 (talk) 06:18, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

IMO TfD NAC-closed-as-delete isn't a bad thing. We shouldn't prevent users from being helpful provided they've spent the time to review each discussion and are willing to be accountable for each close. -FASTILY 19:52, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia:Non-admin_closure#Templates_for_discussion explicitly says that non-admins can close TFDs as "delete". There is nothing to discuss. Primefac (talk) 21:48, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:NACD is the actual guideline. As an explanatory supplement, WP:NAC must agree with WP:NACD. Also, read the RfC. — JJMC89 (T·C) 22:02, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed, I'm a bit perturbed at WP:NAC getting quoted as much as it does. :^) --Izno (talk) 23:27, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm a little surprised at how much mincing of words seems to go on. I'm genuinely confused - it's okay to close as discussion as "orphan then delete" but it's not okay to close an identical discussion where orphaning is unnecessary? At that point we're just splitting hairs; when I started at TFD (Sept 2015, shortly after the RFC) I was closing discussions as "delete" and as far as I recall no one ever had issue with it between that time and when I got the mop. If people insist on codifying what has been acceptable practice since that 2015 RFC then so be it, but let's not pretend that there's a significant difference between "orphan then delete" and just "delete". Primefac (talk) 23:45, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    For an orphan close, there is work (orphaning) that a non-admin can do before deletion, but nothing for them to do when orphaning is not needed. NAC deletes when no orphaning is required just create more work for admins compared to just letting an admin close it. That is a significant difference given that the point of the RfC was to reduce, not merely displace, admin backlogs. A delete NAC (with no orphaning) only displaces the work (and prevents the use of scripts like WP:XFDC) from TFD to WP:TFD/H and/or CAT:CSD. NAC delete (original proposal) closes did not have consensus in the RfC, only orphan (alternate proposal). Primefac, if you were closing as delete when orphaning wasn't required, perhaps no one noticed. I noticed it happening now largely due to the recent trend of TfDing unused templates. — JJMC89 (T·C) 01:33, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair points, though I'm a bit confused by your statement A delete NAC...prevents the use of scripts like XFDC - XFDCloser works perfectly well for NAC closures; tagging the page with G6 and listing it at the holding cell. If that's not right, what is it supposed to do? Primefac (talk) 10:53, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry if I was unclear. I was referring to the admin not being able to use it since the discussion was already closed. This is more meaningful for batch TfDs. — JJMC89 (T·C) 03:13, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Talk page archiving - how many threads to keep?

Fastily recently dropped the "number of threads to keep" to 0, likely because there are two long(ish) RFCs on this page. I don't know of any "big" WP talk page that does this (CSD, AN, and a handful of others I frequent all keep 4 threads). Rather than have an edit war over something so silly, I figured I'd get opinions from TFD regulars. My !vote is to keep 4 threads, since that seems to be the norm and allows the most recent conversations to be seen. Primefac (talk) 20:01, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Uh yeah, because this page looks like shit on mobile. Instead of citing a hand-wavy "seems to be the norm", why don't you actually try justifying zombie threads which are de facto archived and therefore belong in an archive. -FASTILY 20:08, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The oldest thread here is from 29 March, which is less than a month ago. Doesn't really sound like much of a zombie to me. Primefac (talk) 21:43, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You're missing the point. If threads are eligible to archived, then they should be. I've already stated my reasoning above, so I won't be repeating myself here. -FASTILY 22:10, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair enough, and you're entitled to your opinion, as am I. I'm starting this discussion to see what other users feel, since a consensus either way will stop us from bickering about it via edit war. Primefac (talk) 23:32, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just archive the things you think should be archived? --Izno (talk) 23:26, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Because that defeats the purpose of automatic archiving? Primefac (talk) 23:32, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Archiving any talk page to blank, zero threads, makes it look like not a talk page, and discourages uncertain people from posting. If the only thread is massive big and irrelevant, manually archive it and leave an explanation or what you did as a lingering thread. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:43, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • To be fair, I also believe that it's pointless leaving threads that should be archived on the talk page, even if that leads to 0 open threads, as to me that is a non-issue. --Gonnym (talk) 12:48, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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