Talk:Armenians in Abkhazia

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Abkhazia

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Second or Third

The source that has been provided has mistakes. It's written there that:

“

The end of the conflict saw tens of thousands of Georgians flee their homes, so the balance shifted in favour of the Abkhaz. Nevertheless, they are still only a relative rather than absolute majority. accounting for 44 per cent of the population, with 26 per cent Armenians and 21 per cent Georgians, according to a census conducted last year.

”

But the census was carried out not in 2004 but in 2003 and according to that census Georgians outnumber Armenians slightly. Here's another source for the 2003 census data in addition to the one already used in the article. Alæxis_¿question? 06:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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census

Ercwlff, re your last edit, I don't see where your source says that the number of the Abkhaz was exaggerated. That well may be so, but how is it relevant to this article? Surely no one claims that the Armenians are *not* the second largest ethnic group now. Alaexis_¿question? 19:40, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alaexis I added another UN source according to which "Abkhaz are thought to constitute some 35 per cent of the total population of the republic." This implies the over representation and over counting of Abkhaz in the 2011 census. This is very much relevant to the article as Armenians of Abkhazia turn out to constitute not 20% of Abkhazia but significantly more, probably 31—45% of Abkhazia, as claimed in the corresponding Russian article. So, this is about the Armenians of Abkhazia. Ercwlff (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the information not found in the sources and mentioned the accusation of undercounting in the lede. Alaexis_¿question? 06:11, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the removal and reverted further, restoring stable edit. The WP:ONUS is on Ercwlff to reach consensus for his new additions, and currently he doesn't have any. If they continue to edit-war without consensus, they will get reported. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 06:31, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mentioning ethnic cleansing of Georgians

The ethnic cleansing of Georgians should definitely not be mentioned in the lead for two important reasons: it creates the impression of blaming the Armenians and it implies many Armenians weren’t also displaced by the war. The minority rights source doesn’t even mention the Armenian population, so it is original research to include it. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 06:31, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've split it from the previous section, hope you don't mind. I think that the most important events that impacted the Armenian population in Abkhazia should be mentioned. The 1992-1993 war is one of them, but of course mostly the effect was negative with many Armenians emigrating from Abkhazia. There are other, arguably more important events like the Russian Empire's colonisation of Abkhazia in the 19th century and the Armenian genocide and they aren't mentioned in the lede now. Alaexis_¿question? 06:39, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with you, feel free to cite with reliable sources that we can WP:VERIFY from. My opposition is against attempts of original research and synthesis by Ercwlff, and him reinstating his unconstructive edits without even having consensus. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 06:50, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My edits are totally constructive and I sufficiently reasoned them. Stating the fact that the demographic changes during and after the war, most notably the Georgian expulsion significantly increased the share of Armenians thus making them a generally more visible and in many ways more important group in Abkhazia is well reasonable. It doesn't create an impression of blaming Armenians for whatever. Nor does it imply they weren't displaced the by war. This is about their share considerably increasing and them becoming the second most populous group. Armenians emigrating can also be mentioned in the lede to not "create the impression of blaming Armenians". As for your original research accusation, it is unacceptable. The minority rights groups estimates the Abkhaz share to be 35 per cent instead of the official 51 per cent and states that the total number of Abkhazia's population may also be exaggerated by the officials which directly implies the over representation of Abkhaz and thus under representation of others. Doing the most basic math cannot be regarded original research.

Also, threatening me with having reported for not having reached the consensus is unethical as it is just now that you started to bother to take part in the discussion.Ercwlff (talk) 20:53, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think any threats have been made here. If you disagree with the my interpretation of the WP:OR policy you can raise it at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard. Please see my last edit, I think this information belongs to the History section. Alaexis_¿question? 06:48, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It totally does. -Ercwlff (talk) 19:16, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alaexis With respect, that version is still very vague and full of issues. It still gives the false impression that the Armenian population grew at the expense of the Georgians, when many Armenians were also forced to leave. The ethnic cleansing of Georgians just isn't really relevant to the subject of Armenians in Abkhazia. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:06, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ZaniGiovanni, if you think it's important I guess you could start an RfC, I wouldn't object to the removal. Alaexis_¿question? 17:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alaexis Since the last consensus version did not mention it at all, I think it would be better to restore that version, and Ercwlff could create a RfC to ask if ethnic cleansing of Georgians is relevant to Armenians in Abkhaza. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 08:41, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]