Talk:Batal Hajji Belkhoroev/GA1

GA Review

Passed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Thebiguglyalien (talk · contribs) 06:57, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get a review posted for this article in the next day or so. Then we can see how it compares to the good article criteria and what changes it might need to meet them. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 06:57, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WikiEditor1234567123, I've checked the sources for reliability, and some questions need to be resolved before I review the text. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WikiEditor1234567123, I've looked over the rest of the article, and it looks good. There are a few notes below about different things to be looked at, but most of them are just copyediting or clarifying the information. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I will try to fix these issues as soon as possible. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 09:56, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well-written

A single small paragraph generally shouldn't have its own section. Try to combine these into larger sections.

I combined some sections, thoughts? Is it good this way now? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The blockquote template isn't necessary if the quote is just one sentence.
- This article still uses a block quote template. Are you sure it's necessary? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, didn't realize there was still a block quote. Removed✅. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:04, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article says "on the other hand" a few times. This is informal and shouldn't be used in articles.
in a place known as Somyokh – It doesn't need to say "a place known as".
Chechen Sufi sheikh – Watch out for MOS:SEAOFBLUE. Having several links in a row makes it difficult to tell which thing is which.
with whom he discussed about matters of spirituality – It's either "discussed" or "talked about", not "discussed about".
According to some information – Do we need to say this? Everything in the article is according to some information.
he himself was an outlaw – In what way was he an outlaw? A little more information about abreks would be helpful here so we know what Batal Hajji was doing.

The sources simply make mention that he was an abrek who lead units of outlaws, was a supporter of Imam Shamil and also fought in the army of Caucasian Imamate. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 12:00, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

At the moment of Batal Hajji's return to Ingushetia – "At the moment" means the exact second that he got to Ingushetia. "At the time" might be more accurate.
The issue was that the Ingush had to go lengths to visit Chechnya – This doesn't need to be described as an issue. It can just say that they had to travel to Kunta-Haji.
It might be helpful to have more information about the religious beliefs in Ingushetia. Was Batal Hajji in a Muslim family, or were his parents a different religion?

I thought adding such information would have been unrelated to the article, but maybe will add some background info in a note. There's little information about his parents, we know their names and what happened but not about their religion. I would assume they were Muslim as for example his mother's name is of Arabic origin. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 12:00, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He stated to them that – Either "he stated that" or "he said to them that".
who offered him to choose between – Either "who offered him a choice between" or "who asked him to choose between".
Batal Hajji chose this life excepting he could gain place in the afterlife – Is this supposed to be "expecting he could gain a place"?
- This was left unfixed, so I fixed it myself. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Batal Hajji founded the wird approximately, either, – Using both "approximately" and "either" is redundant. I suggest removing "approximately"
but later followers came from other places too – Just saying "other places" doesn't really add anything.

J. Meskhidze just simply mentions from other places. Should I remove that if it doesn't add anything? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

was estimated by John F. Baddeley – Baddeley isn't explained until later. If his name is used up here, then it should be described who he is.
As opposite to – Is this supposed to be "unlike"?
The wird also encourages marriages within the wird – Is there a way to word this that doesn't use "wird" twice in a row like this?
although men are excepted to allow to marry women – I'm not sure what this means. Is it "although men are allowed to marry women"?
John F. Baddeley, a famous British traveler — We don't need to describe people as "famous".
- I've removed the word famous per MOS:PUFFERY. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The accused religious figures included: the Chechen sheikhs: – There shouldn't be two colons in a row like this. Does it even matter who the other accused religious figures are if this article is only about Batal Hajji?

I thought I should have gave more insight on that because I thought it was important to note that many prominent religious figures from Chechnya and Dagestan were also exiled to Kozelsk. So, I should delete that? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I made an edit so that all of the information is kept using parentheses instead of colons. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:44, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to Pavel Gaidukov – We shouldn't use the word "thanks" in articles. It can just say that Pavel Gaidukov sought permission or granted permission (whichever one it was, the article doesn't say).
who is said to have been respected more than any Ingush women – Was she Ingush? If she was, it should say more than any other Ingush women. Also, this is a big claim, so who was saying this?

Unfortunately it's not specified who was saying it. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 12:00, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If we don't know who's saying it, it probably shouldn't be in the article. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I might have been little confused, are you asking who said that she was respected more than any other Ingush women? If so, then that's J. Baddeley and J. Meskhidze (who most likely is referring to Baddeley). WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:16, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In this case, saying that someone is more respected than other people sounds like it could go against WP:NPOV. But if we're saying that someone said she was more respected, then that would be fine (see WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV). So something like "According to Baddeley, she was more respected than any other Ingush women". Though I haven't checked the source, so make sure it's actually based on what the source says. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:48, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done✅. Btw here's the quote from John F. Baddeley (which J. Meskhidze was most likely relying on): "His wife was held in greater esteem than any other Ingoosh woman (...)." WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 06:38, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

the Anti-Soviet Imam – MOS:SEAOFBLUE
in fire exchanges – Is this supposed to be "in exchanges of gunfire" (where they were shooting at the police and the police were shooting back)?

In addition to these notes, I made some copyedits, which can be seen here. I suggest looking them over to see some of the more minor things that I fixed.

Verifiable with no original research

~~These are most likely unreliable sources:~~

Антонова, В; Komsomolskaya Pravda – Tabloid newspaper that apparently has a reputation for fake news

Борусевич, К. И.; Этнографическое обозрение – Outdated source from 1893

These appear to be published by Russian universities (I've opened a discussion here about whether these can be used as sources):

Белхароев, Х. У.; Гуманитарные исследования. История и филология

Даудов, А. Х.; Месхидзе, Д. И; СПб.: Изд-во С.-Петербург. ун-та

I'm unable to find enough information about the authors and publishers to verify whether or not these sources are reliable:

Hanifa N.; Sarup & Sons

Мальсагов, О. А.; Дахкильгов, И. А.; Грозный: Чечено-Ингушское кн

Three uses of Месхидзе, Дж. И; Москва: Восточная литература РАН

Лысцева, И. В; Калужские страницы

Other source concerns:

We cannot link to shadow libraries like Zlibrary
- It's very important that we don't have links like this. I removed it myself. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spot checks to ensure that the article accurately reflects the sources without copying from them:

Youngblood (2003) Y
Gammer (2006) Y
Askerov (2015) Y
Bennigsen & Wimbush (1985) Y
Albogachieva (2019) – I attempted to check this through machine translation:
- Does p. 235 verify that Batal Hajji may have founded it in 1864?
- This is used to support 1821–1914, but the source says 1824–1914.

- Albogachieva says after Kunta-Hajji's arrest. Since it's a known fact he was arrested in 1864, I thought I could add this source. Should I remove it? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spot checks look good overall, just need clarification on Albogachieva (2019).

Broad in its coverage

The article does a good job covering Batal Hajji's life, but what about his teachings? I read the article, and I still don't know much about his wird or how it was different from any other Sufi wird, except for the burial tradition and the dhikr. Were there any beliefs that were different, or were practices like this the only differences?

Still interested in information about what he actually taught and how else his wird was different from other forms of Sufism. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will try to write more about his teachings if I manage to find information on that. However, regarding the wird, the mentioned differences are pretty much all the differences that the Batal Hajji wird has with other Sufi wirds. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:12, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible that there isn't much more information available, and that's fine. But if you can find information about his teachings, that's definitely worth including to achieve broad coverage. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:49, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Thebiguglyalien unfortunately, I can't find information on his teachings but I managed to find more about the wird if that helps. Besides that, do you have other issues with the article and what's the next step? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 15:49, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

No idea is given undue weight. The article does not use subjective language.

Stable

There are no content disputes affecting the article.

Illustrated

Both images appear to be public domain.

Reliable sources

Hello! Thanks for starting the review. I will try to explain why the sources are reliable. I will go one by one.

Даудов, А. Х.; Месхидзе, Д. И; СПб.: Изд-во С.-Петербург. ун-та.

Abdulla Daudov [ru] is a doctor of historical sciences (see his profile here) while Julietta Meskhidze is specialist in this sphere, works at Russian Academy of Sciences (for short "RAN"), candidate for historical sciences (see her profile here. So, all other Meskhidze works are reliable as well, most of them published by RAN.

Мальсагов, О. А.; Дахкильгов, И. А.; Грозный: Чечено-Ингушское кн.

Akhmed Malsagov and Ibragim Dakhilgov [ru] are known folklorists who have recorded many Chechen and Ingush folktales and legends. To show the notibility, as an example, this Akhmed Malsagov's work was published by Nauka. Also, Ibragim Dakhilgov himself is a student of Uzdiyat Dalgat [ru], a famous folklorist too in the Caucasus region. Note that I only used this source once for a legend, else where I didn't use this source.

Лысцева, И. В; Калужские страницы.

Oops, I just realized that this source isn't reliable at all, the author is said to be a director of film (see p. 321 of the same book). I will delete this source like I deleted the newspaper "Антонова, В; Komsomolskaya Pravda" that you suggested was unreliable. Thanks for the help!

Борусевич, К. И.; Этнографическое обозрение – Outdated source from 1893.

I really used this primary source once, and that's to make mention of the "Hajji" title in Batal Hajji's name. I first thought that a source isn't needed for such obvious thing, but I decided to cite a source nevertheless. I cited that source once and never again in the article and I assure you, it's only used to make mention of the Hajji title and reliable enough for that claim.

Hanifa N.; Sarup & Sons.

I'm afraid, I'm not sure about this one. Because it's an encyclopedia, I assumed it's reliable, but an request at the WP:RS/N wouldn't hurt, as well as for this "Белхароев, Х. У.; Гуманитарные исследования. История и филология" source. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 17:53, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All right, I think we can use all of the remaining sources, except there are still questions about these:

Hanifa N.; Sarup & Sons (2002)
Месхидзе, Дж. И; In Прозоров, С. М. (ed.); Москва: Восточная литература РАН (1998, 1999, and 2006)

Are you able to find anything about who the authors or publishers are? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:17, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Meskhidze J. is the same person as Месхидзе Дж. (note the works are published by Vostochnaya literatura which is a branch of Russian Academy of Sciences), so Hanifa N. remains as the only one I'm unsure about. Should I start a discussion in the WP:RS/N about him? Here in the same book (p. 403), he's described as "(...) renowed Islamic Scholar and Director of the Advance Islamic Research Institute." WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 19:54, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If that description is true, then this would be a reliable source. But I'm unable to verify anything about Hanif or the Advance Islamic Research Institute. It's entirely possible that most of their work is in another language and they don't have much of an English language presence (and that description does look like something that might have been translated from another language), but I'm unable to find any independent verification of reliability, and Sarup & Sons doesn't look terribly helpful either, so I suggest avoiding this source unless something can be found to prove its reliability. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:53, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I will remove it as soon as possible. Either way it's used once in the article and won't hurt removing it. So, having now gone through the sources, what is the next phase? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:56, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Now that I know all of the sourcing is reliable, I can go through and review the other aspects of the article. I'll have that done some time today. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:01, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.