Talk:Blood & Treasure

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Two-hour pilot episode counts ONE episode

Once again, all relevant sourcing – Zap2It, The Futon Critic, and even CBS All Access – all list the pilot episode as a single episode, not two episodes. Indeed, when CBS originally broadcast the two-hour pilot, they broadcast it with one single set of credits, not two episodes with two credits (I had somebody check their recording of the original broadcast). All of this indicates that the pilot episode counts as a single episode for counting purposes in the episodes table.

Once again – on Wikipedia, we list how things were broadcast, not how they were produced. If people want that info, that can be added to the episodes table in the form of production codes (provided somebody can find a source for those – The Futon Critic is one such source for these). But none of that changes how the show was actually broadcast, which is the basis by which we list things in the episodes table. And we've got three different sources which agree on this.

Doing anything else is WP:OR, pure and simple, and we don't do that on Wikipedia. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:36, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, despite The Futon Critic listing it as l episode, the numbers on the listing are "#BAT101/102", thus 2 episodes. Also, both parts have different directors; a fact that is no longer reflected by your edits.

Also, CBS gave the series a 13-episode order. If you count the "pilot" as 1 episode, then the 13-episode order is incomplete. -Zuko Halliwell (talk) 01:48, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

That doesn't matter – again, you are confusing production episodes, with broadcast episodes. IOW, a "13 episode production order" can be broadcast as less than 13 broadcast episodes.

Again, what you are doing here is WP:OR – you are going contrary to three different sources here because you think you are right. We are supposed to follow sources on Wikipedia, not the other way around. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:56, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

P.S. The "directors" & "writers" thing can easily be fixed in the table, once its merged back to one episode. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:58, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I can also provide examples from other Wikipedia articles of broadcasts episodes that got separate entries in their episode tables. Here are two such examples. -Zuko Halliwell (talk) 02:55, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

See WP:OSE – plenty of things are done wrong at other Wikipedia articles, so it makes no difference... I have solicited the opinions of other WP:TV editors, hopefully we'll get more opinions here shortly. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:08, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, in the meantime, I have solicited the opinion of one of the show's co-creators, which can be found here. -Zuko Halliwell (talk) 03:18, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

That's nice, but it's actually CBS who decides whether it's two episodes or one... Also, as to your earlier Once Upon a Time example, it's been several years now, but IIRC when ABC ran two episodes of OUaT back-to-back, they actually ran them back-to-back – i.e. with separate credits for each each episode. So that situation is actually not comparable to this one. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

If Amazon sells the episode as a single 44-minute showing, then that's just more evidence that it's one episode. Amaury • 05:11, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Not sure why Amazon should trump CBS All Access, but FWIW, Amazon also sells the pilot, "The Curse of Cleopatra – Parts I & II" as one episode (as per the listed runtime). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:35, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I was going to mention that the Canadian iTunes store sells the episode in 2 parts, but if Amazon doesn't trump CBS All Access, then iTunes definitely doesn't. –Zuko Halliwell (talk) 02:37, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Interesting – I just checked, and U.S. iTunes doesn't have the show yet (they may not get until after all of the episodes have aired)... Anyway, the bigger problem with that example is that it's Canadian iTunes, but this is a U.S. show, so we follow how the U.S. carriers, etc. handle the episodes. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:57, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with that sentiment. -Zuko Halliwell (talk) 20:27, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

You mean as a single ~85 minute showing, right? Blood & Treasure is an hour-long show, so the "regular" episodes are 40-45 minutes long... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:40, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, that. Forgot it was two hours, with commercials, not one. Amaury • 07:42, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

 Note: I just checked, and the pilot was originally listed as one episode, as of this May 20, 2019 edit. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:55, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it was listed as one episode. And then, it was fixed, and no one complained about it until now. -Zuko Halliwell (talk) 13:52, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Because we're not following sourcing on it. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:46, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I advise the the 'Production codes' column be added to this episodes table now, so the distinction between "produced episodes" and "broadcast episodes" is clear. We can use Futon Critic's codes, but I'd like a chance to check the end-credits of an episode of this series to see if the prod. codes are listed there like they are for some other TV series... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:33, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Alright. I'd be okay with the pilot (speaking of which, I don't know if it counts as a "pilot", since the show got a straight-to-series pickup) having one entry with a line break in there, so that the numbering stays the same. I'm also thinking maybe we can take the "Parts 1 & 2" out of the title, and just call it "The Curse of Cleopatra".

But, I do have a question for you, IJBall. Are you the one who combined the pilot into one entry on IMDb? -Zuko Halliwell (talk) 20:27, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Actually, we should leave the "Parts I & II" in the title, as all of the available sources actually list it that way!.. As for IMDb, no I wasn't the one who changed it there – I've pretty much sworn off IMDb editing/updating after they refused to make a correction I sent in even though I'd included a "Variety" source that showed their listing was in error... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:30, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

@IJBall:I can confirm that there are no production codes at the end credits of each episode. — YoungForever^(talk) 20:35, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

[sigh...] So we're stuck with Futon Critic then (Blood & Treasure isn't currently listed in the U.S.C.O. database yet)... I'll try to get to this later today... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:38, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

@Zuko Halliwell: Re: this edit, the problem is that the episode numbering still doesn't match sourcing. Indeed, it's not only contrary to sourcing, it's also confusing to our readership (e.g. Wikipedia's numbering won't match CBS All Access', et al. numbering of the episode). There's no reason to do that. Provided we add the prod. code columns, then it will be clear on "broadcast episodes" vs. "production episodes". But the first column in the table is supposed to be for numbering as per broadcast episodes. Also, as a general rule, I'm opposed to use of the 'hard rule' (hr) code – it's generally unnecessary, and actually induces MOS:ACCESS problems from what I understand... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:11, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

If that's the reason you're doing this, then I would argue that CBS All Access', et al. numbering is the one that is confusing to viewers.

But, if you must revert the edits, please be mindful of the new data I've put in, which is the writers/directors for episode 12, and the L+7 ratings for episode 7. -Zuko Halliwell (talk) 21:20, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I will likely renumber when I add the prod. codes column. I may get to that tonight, or it may be tomorrow... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:42, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Okay. All I ask is that, when the season is over, and all the episode summaries and ratings info have been added, you let me change it back for a few minutes just so I can print out a copy of the article. I know that sounds like a ridiculous request, but I have OCD, and right now, my OCD is focused on this show. -Zuko Halliwell (talk) 22:40, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I doubt I'd have a problem with that – I wish I could suggest a time when I'm watching Wikipedia less... Maybe around 2–3pm PDT, and again around 5–7pm PDT, would be the times of day that I am watching the article the least. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:45, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for being so understanding. -Zuko Halliwell (talk) 23:20, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

@Amaury: I have spent the last 2 months pouring my heart and soul into making sure this article was perfect, and you have the audacity to threaten to report me for trying to protect it from being ruined?! 🤬 -Zuko Halliwell (talk) 23:20, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

You don't WP:OWN this article. And yes, I will report you if you continue to restore your incorrect changes. Amaury • 23:23, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Incorrect changes? You're the one who keeps deleting new data I've added since this dispute started? Or, are you so convinced that I'm wrong, you haven't even noticed that I added the writers/directors of episode 12 and the L+7 ratings for episode 7? -Zuko Halliwell (talk) 23:27, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Also, you're right, I don't own the article. But I feel like I care more about its accuracy and its subject matter than you do. –Zuko Halliwell (talk) 23:51, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I did notice that there was only ever one L+3 & L+7 release for Parts 1 & 2 by Nielsen, it wasn't two separate entries. So by all accounts it seems as if the network & studio consider it to be one two part episode. Esuka (talk) 20:03, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Part I & II in regards to directors

@Amaury: Not sure why it is unnecessary the "Part I" and "Part II" are on the on-screen credits right next to each individual director's name. Without them, it would be misleading because it's not both directors directed both parts, it's each director directed different parts. The writers are different because they both written both parts. — YoungForever^(talk) 15:19, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

@YoungForever: Because the ultimate product is two—or more—episodes merged into one episode by the producers for presentation. It's possible, as such, for directors, writers, and even guest stars to be different, and that is sometimes shown with the part labels, but it's not necessary for this in particular to copy it exactly, again because the ultimate final product is one episode, not two. Amaury • 15:24, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

FTR, I have no objection to indicating "Part I" & "Part II" for the directors – it is part of both the onscreen credits, and the actual title of the episode itself. I would have no problem with YoungForever restoring that change. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:29, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

@Amaury: This is misleading as I said it's not both directors directed both parts, it's each director directed different parts. Also, there is MOS:TV where it says to go by on-screen credits which it includes directors and writers. — YoungForever^(talk) 15:33, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

It's actually misleading with using the part labels because you aren't respecting the final product. MOS:TV is only a guideline, not a top-down rule that must be absolutely followed, and deviations can always be made. I don't watch this series, though, so I don't really care. Amaury • 16:22, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

@Amaury: I am going to agree to disagreed with you. I am respecting how they are credited, it has nothing to do with in regards to it being one episode or two-episodes, it has to do with how they are credited on the on-screen credits itself. — YoungForever^(talk) 16:32, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Except the part labels are not credits. Amaury • 16:53, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

No, YoungForever is correct – the actual onscreen credits do say "Part I" and "Part II" when crediting these two. That along with the fact that every source explicitly titles the pilot as "The Curse of Cleopatra: Parts I & II", justify doing what's been done. In addition, I agree with YoungForever that an "and" here implies that both directors directed both parts together, but that's not what happened – one directed "Part I", and the other directed "Part II". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:59, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying what I have been saying or trying to say the whole time, IJBall. — YoungForever^(talk) 17:06, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I never said they weren't shown in the credits, I said they're not credits, they're labels and therefore don't need to be noted. All we care about is the finished product, not what went into making it. "&" and "and" mean different things. "&" means two people worked on something as a duo. "And," commas, or line breaks all mean the same thing, in that they simply say that one person worked on the episode and another person also worked on the episode. As for the episode title, "Parts I & II" is not part of the title, that's just what The Futon Critic does with virtually all double-length specials. This is no different than something like "Hour of Power." I don't know why I'm still arguing here since I don't care about this series; as such, I'm taking this off my watchlist effective immediately. I only showed up here because of the dunderhead in the section above. Amaury • 18:42, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

"Parts I & II" is part of the title though according to CBS's Blood & Treasure official website. "&" and "and" are interchangeable that mean the same thing. I have seen some TV series use "&" and some use "and". — YoungForever^(talk) 19:33, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I totally agree with YoungForever. As IJBall noted, one of the reasons for making the change is not to confuse readers. I think that having "Part I" and "Part II" next to each director's name would be more helpful to readers. Although, personally, I think that, instead of having it "Part I: Michael Dinner<break>Part II: Alrick Riley", it should be "Michael Dinner (Part I)<break>Alrick Riley (Part II)". But, I trust YoungForever; she knows better than I do. –Zuko Halliwell (talk) 19:52, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Then by all means keep things as they are now. You now have consensus as I agree too, making three editors. Esuka (talk) 19:55, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Color from poster art

IJBall: Which Blood & Treasure poster art are you referring? I am asking because the Blood & Treasure poster art that I derived from isn't bright gold, it's more of a brown-goldish color. — YoungForever^(talk) 17:12, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

For example, this. But even this makes the same thing clear – the title itself is written in gold-colored font. Yes, the background is "black" in some of the show's artwork, but we should always try to go by the font-color (or the color of other foreground imagery) for episode table colors, rather than the background color... That said, if you want to adjust it to a "dimmer"/"darker" gold color, I wouldn't have a problem with that. It just shouldn't be black... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:14, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

@IJBall:It's from the imagery. We should derive from the imagery from the poster art because the font would be a problem since it was renewed for a second season and TV series don't usually change the font throughout multiple seasons. — YoungForever^(talk) 17:21, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Some shows use more than one color in their title fonts. In fact, this show appears to as well, as there are different "shades" of gold inside the letters if you look closely... But if you want to use the color of the gun, I'm of course fine with that. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:24, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

@IJBall:  #A3732A  derived directly from the gun on this poster art. It's more of a brown-goldish. — YoungForever^(talk) 17:37, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Update: It has now been changed to  #C58B33  to meet the color compliance guidelines. It's still brown-goldish, but just slightly lighter. — YoungForever^(talk) 21:41, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Spoilers in the cast section?

Last month, Waylonrobert removed content from the Cast and characters section that "unintentionally spoils the character’s arc". This edit can be found here. However, since the latest episode, users have been adding more spoiler content to the "Cast and characters" section. I was just wondering, does anyone care if there are spoilers in the "Cast and characters" section? If so, I'll remove them; if not, I guess we can also add this. But, I didn't want to do anything without discussing it first. So, please let me know what you think. –Zuko Halliwell (talk) 19:42, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

It is not appropriate to remove spoilers, see WP:SPOILERS. — YoungForever^(talk) 19:58, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Okay, if you say so. I already added some new info to the section. Feel free to edit it if you'd like. –Zuko Halliwell (talk) 20:03, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

season 2 premiere date in summer 2022

Was this on CBS ? July 17th would've been Sunday but my auto-record from when I taped s1 previously didn't tape this until 9pm EST tonight on CBS Buffalo.

Also weirdly the PVR data for this says the "Original air date" was "18-AUG-22" which obviously can't be true (that's nearly a month in the future!) which makes me wonder if the data was input correctly. HearthHOTS (talk) 03:09, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

predator handshake

I remember they finally named this trope and did a tribute to the handshake Arnold + Billy did in that film. Since this was 2019 it escapes me which episode this happened, I think it was later in season so I want to say last or 2nd last. If anyone remembers I think we should add this to the article since it is a notable addition to our popular culture. HearthHOTS (talk) 03:11, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Recurring cast…

I'm curious, how many episodes does a character have to be in before they can be added to the Recurring section? Zuko Halliwell (talk) 20:22, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

At least 4 episodes — YoungForever^(talk) 19:55, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

That's what I thought. In that case, I'm wondering about the possibility of adding a Guest section to the Cast list, for notable actors who have appeared in less than 4 episodes (i.e. Peter Shinkoda, Patrick Sabongui, Mark Valley, Zach McGowan, and Lindsay Wagner). – Zuko Halliwell (talk) 16:00, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Recurring does not include co-starring actors though. Co-starring actors are just actors with super minor roles and are below guest stars. Guest stars subsection is only for notable guest stars (special guest stars/special appearances) those listed in the credits as such, part of the main cast (past or in the present) in another series in the same network, a famous non-actor such as musician or athlete. — YoungForever^(talk) 16:25, 12 September 2022 (UTC)