Talk:House of Obrenović/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

I will add soon the Obrenovic arms.

Predrag Obrenovic

There is nothing about this person at Serbian Wikipedia. Also, during the reign of king Alexander of Serbia, the last ruler of the Obrenovic dynasty, Jakovljevic's ancestors were never considered as possible pretenders. --N Jordan (talk) 03:55, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

This is not truth. The descendants of Jacob Obrenovic after the death of King Aleksandar Obrenovic became his only legitimate heirs. This solution proves Serbian Court in 2005. Decision No. R1 344/04. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Draximus (talk • contribs) 14:52, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

• You really need to provide a reliable source for this, please. Crow^Caw 16:25, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

During the reign of kings Milan and Alexander, Jakovljevic's were never part of the line of succession to the Serbian throne. The decision of Serbian court is about inheritance of the property. Plese stop vandalizing this article with nonsense about self styled princes and their "royal houses". If you think they deserve to be noted at Wikipedia, create a separate article about them. N Jordan (talk) 17:26, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Again, you're talking nonsense.The descendants of Lord Jacob Obrenovic could not become heirs Serbian throne only because of the assassination of King Aleksandar Obrenovic and illegal usurpation by the then Prince Peter Karadjordjevic. The decision of the court did not apply only to property. Descendants have been proven that they are the legal successors, also the blood heirs of the kings of Serbia from Obrenovic dynasty. Legal descendants in the presence of the previously elected Royal Court Council elected the principal and the First Head of the House, H.R.H. Prince Predrag R. Jakovljevic of the Obrenovics. But only the Serbian people can make a final decision who will be the successor to the Serbian throne. http://www.royalhouseofobrenovic.org/en/questions-and-answers/ , http://www.royalhouseofobrenovic.org/en/public-statement

• We need a source unrelated to the House, or to the current Serbian government for that matter, that confirms this. A neutral source that doesn't care either way, but is just reporting facts. Crow^Caw 16:44, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

During the reign of king Alexander of Serbia, nobody considered Jakovljevics possible heirs of the throne. This nonsense is not worth research, it should be enough to check other articles on Wikipedia.

In January 1902, king Alexander sent Mr. Milos Petronijevic, his personal secretary, to Vienna with the promise that it would solve the question of his successor in agreement with the neighboring monarchy by adopting one of the descendants of female line of Obrenovićs, living in Austria-Hungary. (Check May Coup (Serbia), but the source is Istorija srpskog naroda by Vladimir Corovic). Another option was Prince Mirko of Montenegro, who was married to Natalija Konstantinovic, the granddaughter of Princess Anka Obrenović, an aunt of King Milan. (Check Alexander I of Serbia, but the source is Biography of Prince Mihajlo Petrovic Njegos by Pierre O. Leroy). The third option was to name one of Queen Draga's brother heir-presumptive.

On June 4, 1903, the National Assembly of Kingdom of Serbia voted Peter Karađorđević as King of Serbia and elected the mission which went to Geneva to bring him back to Serbia. According to Narodna Skupstina Srbije by Boro Majdanac, the decision was unanimous (all 158 representatives voted). So the Serbian people already made their decision.

Another nonsense: "After leaving Belgrade, as monarch of the Yugoslav Royal House, King Petar II Karadjordjevic practically abdicated from the Yugoslav throne." King Peter II was evacuated from Yugoslavia upon decission of Yugoslav government. N Jordan (talk) 04:28, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

All that said N Jordan is absolutely not true and all is nonsense.

King Alexander never from anyone sought to resolve the question of his successor.All sources that bring such data were under pressure from the new dynasty which did not correspond to the existence of legal successor. When it comes to Vladimir Corovic already been proven much of the data that he cites in his works are not correct. Тherefore, these sources can not be taken as accurate.

Also the decision of the National Assembly was made under pressure and in fear of personal safety of Deputies, by conspirators and Prince Peter Karadjordjevic. The Constitution of the Kingdom of Serbia from 1869 years in Article under number 10 clearly states that can never be elected for Serbian Prince none of the family and descendants of the family Karadjordjevic, that is thrown National curse.

When it comes to the Yugoslav King Peter II Karadjordjevic he is the beginning of 1945 years has renounced all power and abdicated in favor of the then new government. Since this happened before the birth of his son Alexander can be considered that his son is no longer a legitimate successor the Yugoslav dynasty. When it comes to the throne of Serbia, the story is even clearer, because none of the descendants of Karadjordjevic, members of the Yugoslav dynasty there is no longer any rights on the issue of Serbian heritage crown.

This is an encyclopedia. Vladimir Corovic was one of leading Serbian historians. Please provide reliable resources for your statements. So far I haven't seen any. You can't create an article based on your theory of conspiracy. So, stop vandalizing this article. Also, it might be beneficial if you create an account and start signing your contributions.

BTW, there is no such thing as the Constitution of Kingdom of Serbia from 1869. My comment about Peter II Karadjordjevic was in regards to the "official position" of so-called "Royal House" that he abdicated by leaving Yugoslavia in April 1941. N Jordan (talk) 16:16, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

N Jordan you vandalized and putting false information. This is an encyclopedia. The Constitution of 1869 was actually exists and bring us information that family and descendants of the family Karadjordjevic never be the ruler of Serbia, that is thrown National curse. Here is the source that proves that I do not vandalize data. See Article 10, page 6: http://www.digitalna.nb.rs/wb/NBS/Tematske_kolekcije/Srpski_ustavi/RA-ustav-1869#page/2/mode/1up

Read it again, that was not constitution of the KINGDOM of Serbia - but PRINCIPALITY of Serbia. Serbia became kingdom in 1882. You may register your account with Wikipedia and start signing your posts. --N Jordan (talk) 17:17, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. I wrote wrong. But, regardless of whether Serbia was the Principality or Kingdom, members of the Yugoslav dynasty Karadjordjevic forever deprived of the right of entry to the throne of Serbia. With regard to the illegal usurpation of power by Peter Karadjordjevic, and it can be considered that today's descendants of the Obrenovic dynasty, descendants of the only Serbian dynasty.

The constitution of Principality of Serbia from 1869. was replaced with the Constitutions of 1888 and 1901. N Jordan (talk) 23:56, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Possible solution

How about this:

The family's rule came to an end when an underground movement the Black Hand, murdered king Alexander I, who died without an heir. The National Assembly of Serbia invited Peter Karađorđević to become a king of Serbia. After the breakup of Yugoslavia, some descendants from Jakov Obrenović, Miloš Obrenović's brother, declared themselves successors of the Royal House Obrenovic and elected their pretender to the defunct throne of Serbia. 

What do you think? --N Jordan (talk) 04:58, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

PS: The May Overthrow was not organized by Petar Karadjordjević. N Jordan (talk) 05:06, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

After the breakup of Yugoslavia, descendants of Lord Jacob Obrenovic with consent a large number of Serbian citizens confirmed the legal heirs of the Royal House Obrenovic. In a conspiracy organized by the King Petar Karadjordjevic, Obrenovic dynasty has not disappeared from our area. Dynasty has survived and again with the Serbian people chose his Serbian Prince from a legitimate Serbian dynasty.

:: No, that is not text for encyclopedia. --N Jordan (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, these are real and undeniable facts. Royal House Obrenovic was only confirmed their existence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.135.188.99 (talk) 18:13, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Please provide reliable resources for your statements, for those "real and undeniable facts". Provide the resources that demonstrate that descendant of Jakov Obrenovic (a half-brother of Milos Obrenovic) were members of the House of Obrenovic before the death of the last ruler of that house, king Alexander, in the line of succession. Find a single reliable resource that confirms that, after the death of king Alexander, anybody publicly expressed an idea that descendants of Jakov Obrenovic should inherit the crown of Serbia. Provide a reference for your statement that the conspiracy to kill king Alexander was organized by Peter Karadjorjevic. In addition, if somebody asks for reference you should provide that reference - not delete the request. --N Jordan (talk) 19:21, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

• Folks, please don't edit war over this, or the page is likely going to be locked for some time. To the IP, we need you to link to sources that show what you're saying is true. N Jordan is trying to work with you to get an appropriate sentence put in, but if an agreement can't be reached, then no sentence will be added about this, and the article will basically stay as it is. We all want the article to be correct, but we also have a policy that everything has to be independently verifiable, even if you are sure something is a "real and undeniable fact". Crow^Caw 19:33, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

I already asked for WP:3 and I would be grateful if you could participate in discussion. After over 6 months of edit war, maybe we would need a formal mediation. The only think I'm looking for is NPoV. So far I don't see any reliable resources from IP users. During discussion I provided 3 reliable resources (2 of them are already used at Wikipedia) but they simply don't accept their reliability. N Jordan (talk) 19:52, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

• I'd be happy to help out, though I know nothing of the subject area. All I'm looking for is sources to support the claims, whatever they are. So far you've been providing sources, and trying to engage the IPs in discussion, while all I'm seeing from the IP side is assertions that something is true without any sources. As this has been going on for a while as you noted, I just want to let the IPs know that having the page locked is a very real possibility. Crow^Caw 20:04, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much. If this article includes information about relatives of House of Obrenovic, should we include Nicholas, Crown Prince of Montenegro. His father Michael, Prince of Montenegro was son of Natalija Konstantinović, a grandaughter of Princess Anka Obrenović, a daughter of Jevrem Obrenovic. Jevrem Obrenovic was a grandfather of king Milan I of Serbia. His connection is already referenced in other articles, and there are two documents (unfortunately in Serbian) uploaded to Wikisource: https://sr.wikisource.org/wiki/Родословне_таблице_(А._Ивић)#/media/File:Tablice17.jpg and https://sr.wikisource.org/wiki/Родословне_таблице_(А._Ивић)#/media/File:Tablice15.jpg N Jordan (talk) 20:43, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

• It seems reasonable to mention this in the "other family" section, yes. Crow^Caw 20:44, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Respected Crow, I do not want war, but the desire of Mr. N Jordan is to contest the factual situation. After the assassination of King Alexander Obrenovic was deliberately removed all traces of which were related to the conspiracy as well as the true heirs of the dynasty Obrenovic. This was understandable because the Karadjordjevic wanted at all costs to ensure their rule. However, the situation is changing first with communist rule, and then the disintegration of Yugoslavia, when the descendants of the Obrenovic dynasty for the first time appeared in public. The solutions taken by the Municipal Court in Gornji Milanovac, Serbia, there is a solution under number P1 344/04 which in addition to inheriting property gives confirmation of relationship with the King Milan Obrenovic and King Alexander Obrenovic as their only legitimate heirs, what is N Jordan forgot to add. If the decision of the court of the state they live in the legitimate descendants of this dynasty is not a legitimate source I do not know what is. The source is indicated, document must be requested on the insights of the competent court. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.135.188.99 (talk) 21:44, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

• @24.135.188.99: You say "The source is indicated" but no source is given. That is the main consideration: everything must have a source if questioned. While this may very well be true, without a source, it cannot stay. Also please stop re-adding this until we have confirmed it. That is considered disruptive. Crow^Caw 21:49, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

@24.135.188.99: The court decision is about the inheritance of properties of queen Natalie of Serbia in France, if they exist. So, the court confirmed they are relatives, nothing more. But that doesn't make them members of House of Obrenovic. Take for example House of York. The DNA of relatives is used to identify the remains of king Richard III. But it will be a nonsense for those relatives to establish new House of York and become pretenders to the crown of England. BTW, if there is some real inheritance in France, Nicholas of Montenegro is a closer relative of queen Natalia. N Jordan (talk) 23:28, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Third Opinion

A Third Opinion has been requested. What is the question? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:18, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Originally, this was an article about the extinct House of Obrenovic that ruled Serbia for about 60 or 70 years before 1903. However, there is a group of relatives (descendants of a half-brother of the founder of House) who declared themselves successors of the royal house and elected their pretender to the defunct throne of Serbia. They raised their claims in the last 10 years.

Their argument is they were recently recognized by Serbian court as blood relatives so they can inherit properties of former queen Natalie of Serbia in France. She died in France in 1941. They are descendants of Jakov Obrenovic, a half-brother of the founder of House of Obrenovic, who died in 1811 or 1817.

However, during the rule of house of Obrenovic, the descendants of Jakov Obrenovic never participated in ruling Serbia and didn't have any titles. They even didn’t have the same last name. According to leading historians, some other (closer) relatives of Serbian king were considered as possible successors of royal throne, but historians never mentioned descendants of Jakov Obrenovic. After the death of last king from the House of Obrenovic, the Serbian parliament unanimously elected new king from another dynasty.

The question is if information about the new pretender and an alternative view of the history should be part of this article about a historic House of Obrenovic. So far I haven’t seen any reliable source presented and don’t see the reason to disqualify opinions of leading historians. Maybe I'm wrong. N Jordan (talk) 06:03, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

N Jordan partiality is obvious. No matter what Jacob Obrenovic a half-brother Prince Milos Obrenovic, descendants of Lord Jacob Obrenovic with court decision are confirmed as the only legitimate successor. Such an interpretation of the Court decision indicated by the N Jordan is only real distortion of the facts. After all, how can anything that alleges if he did not introduce relevant source. It is obvious that the descendants with the surname Jakovljevic. They changed their surname only to protect themselves from prosecution even for the time when Serbia was ruled by Prince Aleksandar Karadjordjevic. They are still not back to the old name Obrenovic because they are proud to be descendants of the oldest Obrenovic, the lord Jacob Obrenovic. When it comes to the rights of descendants They have never sought, but were only confirmed. Why is this period of only 10 years. Because in times of communist rule was pure folly prove his royal origin. Since the persecution of Obrenovic lasted from 1903. until the dissolution of the former Yugoslavia space for deliberate falsification of history there were more than enough.

Alexander Karađorđević, Prince of Serbia ruled between 1842 and 1858. They had 45 years after that to change their last name back to Obrenovic and emphasize their relationship with the House of Obrenovic. They didn't.

I quoted a leading Serbian historian Vladimir Ćorović. According to his book, "In January 1902, king Alexander sent Mr. Milos Petronijevic, his personal secretary, to Vienna with the promise that it would solve the question of his successor in agreement with the neighboring monarchy by adopting one of the descendants of a female line of Obrenovićs, living in Austria-Hungary." Another option for heir-presumptive was Prince Mirko of Montenegro, who was married to Natalija Konstantinovic, the granddaughter of Princess Anka Obrenović, an aunt of King Milan. The third option was Nikodije Lunjevica, brother of Queen Draga. Reliable sources include Encyclopædia Britannica.

I asked you to provide reliable sources that would demonstrate that Jakovljevics were part of the line of succession of Serbian throne during the rule of last Obrenovic. So far i haven't seen any.

You said that "descendants of Lord Jacob Obrenovic with court decision are confirmed as the only legitimate successor." Serbian court didn't make decisions about the royal line of succession - but about the inheritance of properties. Feel free to upload that court document.

Would you please start signing your posts? Thank you. N Jordan (talk) 08:45, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

PS: The title "Lord" is translation of Serbian word "gospodar" and it is not a hereditary or nobility title.--N Jordan (talk) 08:58, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

N Jordan, I have already stated the reasons why the legal successors retain their surname. Needless to repeat that reason. When I mentioned sources in Serbia for them I have already said that they are mounted by illegal ruler of Serbia, no matter what their reign confirmed Assembly. Unfortunately and foreign historical sources they took up with the lies that were interpreted from Serbia and later Yugoslavia. When you have already mentioned again the court's decision, give us the source from where you specify. I saw the court decision, and I will try to release it, if I get it back for review and obtain permission to publish. However, despite all the foregoing the people of Serbia accepted the legal heirs as its single national and Serbian dynasty. http://www.royalhouseofobrenovic.org/en/public-statement/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.135.188.99 (talk) 09:41, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Please check WP:HOW and WP:VER. The information published on Wikipedia should come from reliable sources, not from original research. In regards to the House of Obrenovic, we can't ignore the contemporary histography due to alternative views of the history and conspiracy theories. So far we haven't seen any reliable sources presented. N Jordan (talk) 17:06, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

• Indeed, we need an unbiased source (unrelated to the Obrenovic House or to the "illegal ruler of Serbia") that states this. At this point I'll take most any source as a starting point, just to see if someone neutral supports this claim. So far from the sources listed (below on this page), none of them seem to even mention Pedrag. Please IP, you must understand, the only criteria we have here, for any subject on any page, is verifiability. We need a source that explicitly supports statements to be added. Please list one that explicitly supports the claim, with no analysis or interpretation required to deduce it. Crow^Caw 21:56, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

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Милорад Бошњак; Слободан Јаковљевић (2006). Обреновићи, сакривена историја. Горњи Милановац: ЛИО. ISBN 978-86-83697-33-5. „www.glas-javnosti.co.yu”. Arhiva.glas-javnosti.rs. Приступљено 5. 12. 2010. Milorad BOŠNJAK. „Nasleđe umesto krune | Aktuelno | Novosti”. Novosti.rs. Приступљено 5. 12. 2010. Наследник: Желим да повратим славу и углед Обреновића („Вечерње новости“, 13. јун 2013) V. Ilić. „Sa krunom pred Miloša | Aktuelno | Novosti”. Novosti.rs. Приступљено 5. 12. 2010. „Pregled štampe - Seljak postao princ - Internet, Radio i TV stanica; najnovije vesti iz Srbije”. B92. Приступљено 5. 12. 2010. „Obrenovic family”. Genealogy.euweb.cz. Приступљено 5. 12. 2010. Наслеђе уместо круне („Вечерње новости“, 11. јануар 2003.), Приступљено 8. 4. 2013. Панка Обреновић, унук краља Милана (Погледи, 1. фебруар 1998) Обреновиће поделио тестамент („Вечерње новости“, 21. јун 2013) www.politika.rs Потомци Обреновића www.telegraf.rs Слободан Јаковљевић наследник Милошеве лозе www.novosti.rs Наследник породице Обреновић жели да поврати славу и углед Обреновићима www.czipm.org Хералдика Обреновића - Предраг Јаковљевић www.prviprvinaskali.com Хералдика Обреновића од псеудохералдике до савремене европске хералдике Маја Гојковић отворила изложбу панк портрета Обреновића РТС 1 "Жикина шареница" Историјски сусрет два принца Став Краљевске куће Обреновић о праву на престо — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.135.188.99 (talk) 21:55, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

• Династија Обреновић-Јаковљевић (званични сајт)
• Обреновићи - дигитална НБС
• Обреновићи и њихов родослов
• Милорад Бошњак и Слободан Јаковљевић: Обреновићи и веза са Орловићима - Мартиновићима, Порекло Орловића
• Историјска библиотека: Намерни заборав. Случај Обреновића
• Династија Обреновић, Знање.орг
• Обреновићи, Знање. орг
• Проглас о венчању Краља Александра Обреновића
• Обреновићи, Виртуелни маузолеј
• „Фатална судбина Обреновића“, Милорад Бошњак и Слободан Јаковљевић, Вечерње новости, фељтон, 16 наставака, 28. јул - 12. август 2006.

Use of Slobodan Jakovljevic as a reference is clear WP:COI as he is not a neutral person here. Some of the websites you listed are not reliable resources. E.g. web presentation of so-called Royal House of Obrenovic. Some of them are simply not relevant. E.g. you listed king Alexander's wedding proclamation but there is no a single word in that document about the issues we discuss. We need reliable resources that confirm for your statements. --N Jordan (talk) 22:47, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

N Jordan partiality is obvious. No matter what Jacob Obrenovic a half-brother Prince Milos Obrenovic, descendants of Lord Jacob Obrenovic with court decision are confirmed as the only legitimate successor. Such an interpretation of the Court decision indicated by the N Jordan is only real distortion of the facts. After all, how can anything that alleges if he did not introduce relevant source. Invalid claim is

I am leaving the Third Opinion request unanswered. The above discussion is lengthy and does not clarify. Maybe another volunteer can parse what the question is. As it is, I am inclined to recommend moderated dispute resolution with a moderator who can tell the editors to keep their statements concise. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, will do it. N Jordan (talk) 00:55, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Dispute

Please check the current dispute: Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Obrenovi.C4.87_dynasty. N Jordan (talk) 00:55, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Since IP user ignored dispute resolution process, I corrected information about the end of the dynasty and provided reliable sources.--N Jordan (talk) 20:53, 8 September 2016 (UTC)