Talk:José Martí/GA1

GA Review

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GA review to follow. Mike Christie (talk) 00:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Organization

While a huge amount of information has been added to this article, it's very poorly organized. The main problem I see is that there's LOTS of overlap between the chronological section at the top and the themed sections ("Marti and Cuban Independence", "Marti as a translator", etc.), with much content repeated. What the article needs is a single editor to streamline and consolidate all the different pieces. Personally, I think the best course would be to move most content into the chronological section and eliminate most of the later sections altogether.

I don't know if this problem disqualifies the article from GA status at this time. As a writing teacher, though, it's really annoying. Just my 2 cents... Zeng8r (talk) 02:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree there are organizational issues. I'm in the process of writing the review, but if you'd like to help the other editors work on this you might suggest that on the talk page. I'll see what I can do to highlight the problems in detail in the review. Mike Christie (talk) 02:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My review notes so far are below; I'll add more as I have time. It's a long article and may take me two or three days. Mike Christie (talk) 02:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

The lead is a little short. See WP:LEAD; the lead should be three or four paragraphs, and provide a summary of the whole article.
"Putting his ideology into practice, he died in February 1895, participating in the invasion of Cuba." This reads a little oddly; by the time I reached the second comma my eyebrows were going up wondering why his ideology specified dying in February 1895. I'd reorder the information so the reader doesn't get a chance to be surprised.
"His works, a large series of ...": I don't think "large" is the right adjective. His works are substantial, but the series is long, not large. However, you might find that when you expand the lead you can be more specific about his works, so this problem might disappear. A separate problem with this sentence is that "marked to promote" doesn't really convey anything. Do you mean "regarded as promoting"? Or "used [e.g. by revolutionaries] in the promotion of"?
The last sentence is an opportunity for expansion; many readers will not know what "modernismo" is and an inline explanation would not go amiss.

Early life

"In 1865, he enrolled in the Escuela de Instrucción Primaria Superior Municipal de Varones that was headed by Rafael María de Mendive." English-only readers will have to guess that this is a school; and "that" is incorrect -- it implies there were several schools of this name, and they enrolled him in the one headed by Mendive. How about "In 1865, he enrolled in the Escuela de Instrucción Primaria Superior Municipal de Varones, a secondary school headed by Rafael María de Mendive, who was to be influential in the development of Martí's political philosophies." That's assuming "secondary school" is a sufficiently accurate description. Another alternative would be to include the English translation in parentheses; you do this for the painting school in the next paragraph, and I think that works well. By the way, you spell it both "Mendive" and "Menidive"; which is correct?
Was his poem dedicated to Mendive's wife his first publication? If so that would be worth mentioning.
"Martí had a precocious desire for the independence and freedom of Cuba." Why "precocious"?
"When one of his friends joined the Spanish army...": you tell this story twice; it appears later in the section on Cuban independence. The dates would be useful to the reader; "later discovered" only means a year later, but the reader doesn't know this. (Or was it even less? It was discovered in October 1869, but when did Martí write it?)
"His famous sonnet "10 de octubre" was also written during that year, and was published later in his school newspaper." Should "octubre" be "Octubre", as would be the case in English? You might also change it to say "later to become one of his most famous poems" or something to that effect, since the poem was not famous when it was published.
- A quick note on (one part of) this: months are not, in fact, capitalized in Spanish. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 08:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Despite this success, in March of that year, colonial authorities shut down the school": this just doesn't make sense. It sounds like you mean "despite Martí's success in publishing the poem, the authorities shut down the school". That can't be what you intended.
"On 21 October 1869, aged 16": this is an example of the duplication of information mentioned by Zeng8r, above. You actually cover this story three times; it should be given in appropriate detail once, and then can be referred to elsewhere. I tend to agree with Zeng8r that it would be better to make the article almost completely chronological; then each event could be discussed in suitable detail when it comes up. Some sections would be exempt from this: Style, Legacy, and Works, for example; possibly others.

Spain 1871-1874

The first mention of Fermin Valdez comes without any explanation of who he is. I know from later in the article that he's the other signer of the letter that got Martí jailed, but that doesn't help a linear reader.
"His six years of jail were pardoned": you don't pardon years, you pardon people, and it doesn't sound like he was pardoned anyway as he ended up in exile. Do you mean "commuted to exile"?
"printed matter" is a bit odd, but if you can't be more specific based on the source, then you can't. If you know it was a broadsheet (or whatever) it would be good to say so. And by "circulated Madrid" do you mean "circulated in Madrid", or "was distributed in Madrid"? Or perhaps "began to circulate in Madrid"?
"“A mis Hermanos Muertos el 27 de Noviembre”" has quotes and is in italics; only one or the other is needed. Something published in book form is given in italics; something published within another publication (i.e. a short story or poem in a newspaper or anthology) is in quotes. This is the relevant guideline.
"to whom he would express his will": I don't follow the "would"; do you mean just "he expressed his will", or was there a delay before he made his opinions known?

Mexico, Guatemala, Cuba, Spain 1875–1879

"the anti-Cuban manifestations of the La Colonia Española newspaper": "manifestations" is not the right word. Do you mean "editorial stance"? Or "articles that began to appear in"?
"integrated by dramatic authors, actors and critiques": what do you mean by integrated?
The sentence about his article "Extranjero" said he repeated his denunciation and farewell; I've corrected this to "bade farewell", assuming that he had not said farewell in the previous article. Please revert me if I misunderstood this.
"from which through Isla de Mujeres y Belice he travelled to Guatemala": that "y" doesn't look like part of a placename to me. Should this be "from which he travelled to Guatemala via Isla Mujeres and Belize?
"Ordered by the Guatemalan government, he wrote the drama Patria y Libertad (Drama Indio)." What does "ordered by" mean? Was he commissioned to do it?
The paragraph beginning "In the beginning of January 1878" has a couple of problems. First, it's not clear if Martí was still having to use a pseudonym -- he applies to practice as a lawyer; has he already been granted the right to return? Second, the dates don't seem to allow José "Pepito" Francisco to be his son! The boy was born November 2 and so must have been conceived in late January or early February. But Martí was back in Guatemala at the beginning of January and didn't return till after García Granados's death in May. Zayas Bazán appears to have remained in Havana the whole time.
"On April 21 he carried out a discourse against the autonomist politics, in the banquette held by Adolfo Márquez Sterling, director of discussion in the El Louvre cafe." Some of this material reads as if it's been translated; is that the case? Whatever the reason, there are quite a few very unnatural turns of phrase in the article. Here you have "carried out a discourse"; do you just mean "spoke"? It would read more naturally as "On April 21 he spoke against autonomist politics at the El Louvre cafe" unless we care who Adolfo Márquez Sterling is (and it seems we don't as he's not mentioned again). In the next sentence, "demonstrated his inspiration for Cuban independence" is another stilted phrase that needs fixing. Then the sentence after that has "started the call of " and "conspiring an uprising"; both need improvement.

The United States, Venezuela 1880–1890

The long quote that starts with the mention of his translation of Ramona doesn't seem necessary; why not paraphrase this? Ideally you'd link to Helen Hunt Jackson and Ramona too; linking is frowned on in direct quotations so a paraphrase would solve that problem. Plus Ramona needs to be italicized; it's a book title.

The United States, Central America and the West Indies 1891–1894

I've change a few dates to conform to the style guide but there are more to do.
"He intervened in the commemorative acts of The Independents." Who are The Independents?
I've fixed a few present tenses to past tense, which is what the description of Martí's life should be written in. Could you go through and find and fix any that are left?
"poisoned in Tampa": this is an interesting titbit. Any more detail? Not needed for GA, though.
"they planned out the uprising"; I cut the "out", which doesn't add anything, but I think you handle this better a few sentences below, where you say "the armed expedition that would begin the Cuban revolution". The reader doesn't know yet what "uprising" is being planned, so some more explanation is needed.

Placing GA nomination on hold

I am going to cut short the detailed review at this point and place the GA nomination on hold. The article has acquired a phenomenal amount of well-sourced information, and I think has everything it needs to become a good article, and possibly a featured article. However, fixing the prose problems is not the first step, and I don't think it's the best thing for the article for me to list those in detail at this point.

Here's what I suggest.

First, talk about the organizational problem. You should consider having that conversation on the talk page as much as you can, since if you do that, other editors can chime in and help. If you meet as a student group and discuss it, that will be beneficial, but won't be visible to those of us who'd like to help. The problem to tackle is the one Zeng8r pointed out above, and I think he's right that a more chronological approach is the right way to go, as otherwise redundancy seems unavoidable.
Come up with a plan to correct it. Which sections need to be chopped up? Where is there currently duplication of information? What sections would remain after the chronological sections?
Execute the plan.
Then, and I'd suggest only then, take a pass through to fix the prose problems that I identified above. There are similar problems throughout the article, and you should try to find the same kind of problem throughout, not just where I commented.

There's no time limit on a GA hold; I won't let it stay on hold forever, but if you are working on it and improving it I'll be happy to keep it on hold.

I would also like to add that I'm quite serious about this article having the potential to make featured status. The hardest part of a featured article is the research, and you've done a great deal of that. I don't doubt there would be more research to do, but the bulk of the article is in place and is well-sourced. If you wanted to get to FA, I and others would be happy to support you.

Let me know what you'd like to do. Mike Christie (talk) 22:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you

Thank you Mike. We're going to organize the article and get rid of the repetitions. So give us sometime please --Dtiv (talk) 03:08, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure; you can have the time you need. If you post some of your discussion on the talk page, I'd be happy to join in; I'll also be glad to chip in and help with the article itself if I have time. Mike Christie (talk) 11:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, tell me what you think about my lead ;). Valerieraynard (talk) 05:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion is open!

(I swear I just posted this, but it seems to be lost...) Anyway.... So we need to discuss what to do about the redundancies in the article. They seem to be only in the "cuban independence" and "translator" sections. These can be incorporated into the chronology of his life. However, I would like to propose writing a smaller section about Marti's political ideology and goals and include his Bases for the Cuban Revolutionary Party. The following are my questions: 1) Does everyone agree that the two sections I've named above are the only ones containing repetitions? If not, what other sections do?
2) Does everyone agree on my proposal for a sort of "political ideology" section?
3) What other reorganization of the supposedly poorly organized sections is necessary? 4) If anyone has suggestions or guidelines for sources (how many more, which ones are good, tips), that would be super helpful.
Please respond ASAP; I know we all have papers and exams coming up, so the sooner the better!!! Valerieraynard (talk) 04:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If I can throw in my 2 cents again, I'd say the "as translator" and Modernismo sections should be merged with the "writing" section (which, to be consistent, should probably be renamed "...as a writer"). The "style" and Modernismo portions seem to be saying similar things - perhaps more candidates for merging. This new combined section could be called "as a man of letters" or something similar, and it should focus on literary criticism, as the basic timetable of his writing activities should move into the chronological section.

Also, the sections about Latin American identity and his views on the US should probably be incorporated into that new section on political ideology. Some of this info should probably be incorporated into the chronological history as well, leaving mainly discussion of his developing/changing beliefs & attitudes.

As a guide, I'd suggest that almost every fact that includes a specific date should be in the chronological portion. Only items about changing writing styles, attitudes, etc. be included in separate sections.

By the way, the tale of Marti's poisoning in Tampa (in Ybor City, to be precise) and his activities there probably deserve greater mention. The cigar workers there were instrumental in funding the Cuban Revolution of the 1890s, and Marti was instrumental in getting them all fired up with the spirit of Cuba Libre. There are a couple of links at the bottom of the bibliography section that discuss this. (Another btw - I'm working on adding a Cuba Libre section to the History of Ybor City article, so if anybody wants to pitch in, please feel free.)

Ok, so that was more like 10 cents... :-) Zeng8r (talk) 11:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hola Valery, what Zeng8r has suggested sounds pretty good. Lets put Latin American identity and views on the US in Political Ideology, and put Modernismo and style and Marti as a translator in "Marti as a man of letters" . What do you think Valery? If you're okay with that, I can o that, and you can start deleting the repetitions or incorporating stuff in to his life section. so write me please. --Dtiv (talk) 19:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah Delara, GO AHEAD, but let's call the section "Marti's writing" or something more basic like that ok? I'll talk to you in class today. Valerieraynard (talk) 20:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just checking in; I haven't seen any comments here that you are ready for another review. Are you still planning more work on the article? Mike Christie (talk) 03:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I failed this GA nomination today; I gather grades are due tomorrow, and without a response this really has to be failed. Mike Christie (talk) 18:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. This article has improved a lot since I last pored over it last year. Thanks to everyone who has contributed, Marti's a huge hero of mine.