Talk:Konnan

older comments

this meets GA criteria; but can still be improved by more clearly separating reality from fiction e.g. "he betrayed his tag team partner", make clear this is kayfabe to distinguish it from real facts in the same paragraph. Zzzzz 18:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Charles Ashenoff → Konnan – He has used the name "Konnan" consistently since at least 1991, and has released films and music albums under this name. Naming the page "Konnan" will avoid controversy over whether the page should be at "Charles Ashenoff" or "Carlos Ashenoff" (he is a Hispanic-American). Moving the page will allow more direct linking and lessen redirects. McPhail 19:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support Seems an ideal solution! --Lox (t,c) 21:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Moved. —Nightstallion (?) 09:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Shoot Interview as a source

I probably should have brought this up earlier but Konnan has a reputation for twisting the truth to make himself sound better. If he doesn't like somebody, he'll exaggerate or even make up things to one up them. That 58,000 audience figure doesn't sound right either.--Darren Jowalsen 02:57, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Finishing and signature moves

Shouldn't it have it's own section? I've moved it before, but someone moved it back.Yugioh73036 00:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC)Yugioh73036

read the featured article candidation.. they dont want information in section the want it to be placed with the text in these stat box like things --- Paulley

Bleh. IMO that table should be changed somehow, because "Move name: Crucifix powerbomb | Description: Crucifix powerbomb" doesn't look right. -->So sayeth Methnor^{Sayeth back}|_{Other sayethings}

Yes i does need improvement i agree but we have to get a better in text table created to fit the move and manager sections into--- Paulley

Also why is it in the middle instead of at the beginning or end?Freebird Jackson 20:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

because it has to look like its itergrated into the article and not a section of it --- Paulley

Can someone please stopping the boxes on the article. The table should be changed somehow or removed , because "Move name: Crucifix powerbomb | Description: Crucifix powerbomb" doesn't look right. It shouble be put in normal finishers and signatures wrestling list

If it has its own section, then the article will never be a FA. Yes, it needs to be redesigned, but it will not, I repeat will not be given its own section in this article. When a working format is discovered, then all of the others will be reformatted to that design. This article is the guinea pig. -- The Hybrid 01:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I like it looking seperate, because this is just...weird —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.214.74 (talk) 13:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Military service

I deleted a section where it stated Ashenoff served in the Persian Gulf and "Ashenhoff resigned his commission.". He was enlisted not an officer and therefore never received a commission. I'm not sure how he was discharged, but it was not via resignation/of his own option.--DrRisk13 21:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

WHO??

"He was given a choice of either going to jail, or entering the Military." by who?--Henning Ihmels 16:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Presumably the judge.

AAA

Konnan is also in AAA bringing in wrestlers from TNA Wrestling and other promotions, he acts like The Outsiders and disrepspects wrestlers in AAA, claiming they're bailarinas, he has joing forces with LLL which is a stable that tries to take over AAA -Prince Bee

In the artcile about Juventud Guerrera on here it claims Konnan still denies defecating in Guerrera's bag. This should be reconciled and whichever article is incorrect should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.214.47.190 (talk) 21:09, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

In recent news interviews...

...he's been repeatedly introduced as "Carlos Ashenoff." Should the lead to this article perhaps be changed? Nosleep1234 21:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Cleaning Up References/Footnotes/Notes

Since this article has a bunch of references, I think it should be cleaned up with the following:

<!-- ----------------------------------------------------------
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Footnotes for a discussion of different citation methods and how to generate footnotes using the<ref>, </ref> and <reference /> tags
----------------------------------------------------------- -->
<div style="height: 220px; overflow: auto; padding: 3px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA; reflist4" > {{reflist|3}} </div>

For an example of it use see The Simpsons Movie.

But due the way the citation in the footnotes are setup, it leaves a blank box.

Mr. C.C. 06:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

GA Disputed

I have not nominated this article at WP:GA/R because overall it is a good article. However, there are two areas that need to be addressed in order for this article to retain GA. First, which is noted in the section above, the references need to be cleaned up. The style used doesn't matter, but all available information needs to be included. See WP:CITE. Second, the article goes in and out of universe. This needs to be corrected. It needs to be clear that he wrestled storylines. I haven't read all the promoted articles listed on the PW project page, but I know many, if not all, of the others I've read mention kayfabe, which this one does not. If issues aren't addressed, the article will be listed at WP:GA/R where others will read the article and determine whether or not it meets the criteria listed at WP:WIAGA. This could result in the article being delisted. Drop a line on my talk page if you have any questions or need help with anything. Regards, Lara♥Love 18:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

DOB

Konnan's DOB is listed separately in the article as January 6 and June 6. Which should it be? Poker Flunky (talk) 16:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Konnan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are a number of issues that need to be addressed.

• It is reasonably well written.

  a (prose): b (MoS):

The prose is OK, maybe a 6/10.

The lead is short and untidy. It should be expanded into seperate, organised paragraphs describing Konnan's career.

• It is factually accurate and verifiable.

  a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

A number of sections are lacking citations, with a number of paragraphs totally unreferenced, some containing controversial information. This must be addressed by someone. I recommend at least one citation per paragraph and if an editor wants more guidance, please leave a message here or at my talk page.--Jackyd101 (talk) 19:11, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

• It is broad in its coverage.

  a (major aspects): b (focused):

• It follows the neutral point of view policy.

  a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

• It is stable.

  

• It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

  a (tagged and captioned): b (lack of images does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

• Overall:

  a Pass/Fail:

I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN again. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards--Jackyd101 (talk) 19:11, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I guess we both forgot about this one. :) How is it now? Nikki♥311 00:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Passed GAR--Jackyd101 (talk) 14:58, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Personal life

Hi, this is a warning that the personal life information in this article is much too short (its also hard to tell what is real and what is wrestling storyline). Any biography that is of GA standard must have at least one well organised paragraph describing the persons life outside of their field for which they are famous or otherwise incorporate that information elsewhere in the text. This article does not provide enough information on the person in question and does not give enough context for the incidents and information that is mentioned. For an example of how such a section might look, see Brian Urlacher and for pointers on how to expand and improve the section, see this guide. If this information is not improved then this article would be unlikely to survive a Good Article Reassessment and may well be delisted in the future. Thanks--Jackyd101 (talk) 10:40, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I thought he had some pretty significant health issues a few years ago. So bad, in fact, that I came to this article checking to see if he'd passed away. Is this worth mentioning in the article?

Luchas de Apuestas record

Shouldn't that be posted on his page like with other Luchadores?98.204.186.88 (talk) 23:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Fundamental problems here...

I've tried to copyedit this, but there's some problems. There are over 30 references to one article (Milner on SLAM!), and the material referenced isn't in the article, such as the birthday debut, and some of it isn't clear, as it appears he was a boxing champion in the Navy here, but not until after he left the Navy according to the article. Moreover, his birthday is an issue - Milner says June, and another source says January. On top of all that, the article is a chronological mess. Konnan debuted for UWA in '87, left to go to AAA in '92, and yet somewhere in there he debuted for WCW in 1990 and WWF in 1991, then was in AAA and WWF concurrently, then ECW, then WCW again, ended up in TNA, "left TNA" to go to AAA in 2004 while still being involved in angles in TNA until 2007, etc. This is going to need a rewrite just to make sense, so I'm going to pull the GA for now and start doing some research. MSJapan (talk) 02:22, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

• The problem is that the article is not chronological, instead each fed gets their own !ittle box to put info in. I never liked that approach iin general and here it is really confusing, shifting to a chronological narrative I stead of fed-lables would really help. I think the jump to GAR is premature, everything could be addressed in a couple of days I am sure.... And if the article is trimmed a little that is not a bad thing.  MPJ-DK  02:43, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Konnan/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

This article has numerous problems. I've listed them in a thread on the talk as well, but here they are:

Career Chronology

The actual layout of the article for his career is as follows:

Asistencia Asesoría y Administración (1992–1996)

World Wrestling Federation (1991–1993)

Extreme Championship Wrestling (1995)

World Championship Wrestling no date in header

Debut (1990)

U.S. Champion; Dungeon of Doom (1996–1997)

nWo (1997–1999)

No Limit Soldiers; Filthy Animals (1999–2001)

World Wrestling Council (no date given)

Total Nonstop Action Wrestling (no date - should be 2002-2007)

The 3Live Kru (2003–2005)

The Latin American Xchange (2005–2007)

Return to AAA (2004–2016)

Hijo del Perro Aguayo's death

Lucha Underground (2014–2015)

As can be seen, there are fundamental formatting errors with the headers. On top of all that, everything is out of order - according to the article, Konnan was in UWA in 1987, and debuted for WCW in 1990, went to the WWF and ECW while apparently still at AAA, and then much later, was in TNA and AAA at the same time. So this fails GAC1.

Bio Issues

1. Two different dates given for his birthday, and three until I corrected it - one source says January 6, another says June 6, and a claim cited to a source it wasn't in said he debuted for UWA on his birthday, January 26, 1987. That's a basic WP:V problem, it was brought up on talk before, and was never addressed.

1. Bio is largely cited to two articles, one of which isn't long enough to support 35 citations. The other has 17. That's too much reliance on two sources for the bulk of the article, which tells me it's possibly too close to copyvio.

• So possible and actual are two different things, if you're delisting it you should probably do better than "possibly" you know? it would be good to actually be sure before taking such a drastic, unilatral step. The Slam article is quite detailed and used to fill in especially the early part where there are not a lot of other sources - the fact that there is a reliable source should not be discounted just because it's used repeatedly, doesn't make it any less reliable.
• "Largely cited to two articles" really downplays the fact that there are 61 other sources listed for the article.  MPJ-DK  03:29, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, most of which are single page references and title belt histories, and throwaways - do we really need 2 citations for the fact that Konnan was ringside for Hijo de Perro Aguayo's final match? Also 61 other sources? OK, well, between those two sources, there are 61 citations, so those two sources are the equivalent of everything else in the article. Does that put it in a better perspective for you? As for copyvio, I don't know how you get 35 references out of less than 35 sentences without direct copying. I could also go the coatracking route, but the fact of the matter is that the article is too overly reliant on too few sources for too much information. MSJapan (talk) 03:50, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

• Your math is off, and apparently the single citations are dismissed now too? What is the sweet spot inbetween? Seems to be your judgement call so what is it? 2-8? Is 9 too many you see how.arbitrary this.comment is? And "Coatrack"? Should i get you a bale of hay since you seem to like to grasp.at straws?  MPJ-DK  11:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry you have a vested interest here, but this article is not GA material. Do you not understand there are basic factual errors and a severe lack of clarity? I've reordered the chronology, but the fact of the matter is that he's claimed to work for several promotions simultaneously without explanation (particulary multi-promotion debuts), most of his actual career is uncited, his debut year was wrong per the source it was cited to, and a lot of other information is unclear - did he win the boxing title in the Navy or afterwards? At what point did he start booking for AAA? On what basis is he even called "the Hulk Hogan of Mexico"? The latter point seems to be "really important", and yet there's no basis for it given in the article.

If you want to nitpick on details and claim that I'm wrong because there's 60 citations instead of 61, go right ahead, but that's not going to change the overall informational problems with the article. The simple fact of the matter is that a biography shouldn't have 30+ citations out of an article that doesn't have 30 sentences - the added fact that I have found incorrect information that was supposed from that article pretty much indicates that the article is being used to cite information that isn't in it, and that's a problem. Now, you can either help fix the problem, or you can stop attacking me because you don't agree with facts, but I'm not going to argue with you here anymore. MSJapan (talk) 18:00, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

• I don't particular like Konnan and really have not done much to the article over the years despite Lucha Libre being my focus. I am "vested" in the heavyhanded approach I am seeing, no real attempt tofix issues before the reassessment anf then a reassesment that has several wrong assumptions. I see plenty of things that can be addressed, chronology is #1 i hate the layout. Also i would replace the Online World of Wrestling citations if possible, it is marginally reliable. However i don't see a probelem if an article is used extensively as a source, especially on his early career. Good sources of the time in Mexico are hard to come by. If a source does not cover the claim i agree with your approach, remove source, citation needed. But if the article sources something what does it matter how many times it is head ? If it is not a copyright violation ot too close a paraphrase I don't see the problem, it covers a claim- end of story imo. I have a couple of books that can probably cover some of the claims, but what is the point? You asked why there were 2 sources for Perro Jr's death, then ask the same for other instances? To me there is a difference in "we ahould fix this to keep it GA" and "We should fix it so' you can renominate for GA" which seems to be your approach. I am saying this can be fixed in a couple of days easy, I could do it, but you seem to be running with it. I'll "unvest" since you've got this thing going on with the reassessment and future renomination that I am just not digging the vibe of.  MPJ-DK  18:52, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, there's the assumption at the root of the problem - I'm pre-emptively dealing with the GAR because I don't think it's a short-term fix - there's a major problem with Milner I'm going to illustrate. I've been able to fix pieces, but I don't think it's GA material, and I don't think I can fix it "in a few days", but I'm going to try. I'm sorry that you are under the misapprehension that I'm in this for myself, but you know what? I've gone ten years on WP without a GA nom, and having one (or not) at this point is meaningless. I don't need to impress anybody, but what I can tell you is that I do know what I'm doing, and I didn't feel like waiting a month for a community de-list, because I've done that before too.

As far as the article sourcing goes, Milner states very clearly that Konnan was in WCW at Starrcade after he was in WCW "Konnan did a short stint with WWE, under his own name, as well as "Maximillion Moves", "Max Moon" and "El Electrico". Eventually, the organization settled on Max Moon, but before long a frustrated Konnan had left the organization and Paul Diamond replaced him in the role. Konnan had a short stopover in WCW, teaming with Rey Mysterio Sr, as "Team Mexico", competing in the Pat O'Connor Memorial International Tag Team Tournament."

Meanwhile, WWEClassics, in an interview with Konnan says the exact opposite, and the chronology is independently verifiable. In the interview, Konnan says he was in WCW, met with Pat Patterson and then went to meet with Vince before joining WWE. We know the O'Connor Tournament was at Starrcade 1990, and that Konnan met with Pat Patterson on New Year's Eve in 1990 and thus could not have joined WWE until 1991. So we have Milner (30+ citations, remember) with an actual factual error with what several sources of independent facts say. I'd also point out that Milner has a discrepancy with respect to Konnan's birthdate. This brings up a real question of WP:RS here for that source, and is one of the reasons I don't think this is a short-term fix.

I've additionally found several sources that simply don't have the information they've been cited for. This is also a fundamental GA problem. In short, the article just isn't where it needs to be to be a GA, and maybe I can fix it in a few days, but maybe I have to re-source 30+ citations. MSJapan (talk) 19:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

• Hey you don't have to convince me it'll take you a while to do it, go for it, you've got it handled dude.  MPJ-DK  22:05, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

• This may help with the chronology http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=103&page=4&s=1000 this page and the previous one covers WCW/WWF matches, hope it helps clarify the timeline for you - as you can see it's all kinds of mixed in where he worked.  MPJ-DK  22:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Career Incomplete

1. There are many more titles listed for promotions that aren't even in the career section.
2. He's called the "Mexican Hulk Hogan" for being on TV, yet there's not a single thing about television appearances in the article. So there's a verifiability problem wrt GAC2.

Through more careful use of the sources in the article, I've been able to address the early chronology a little - it's not quite where it should be, but there's at least information on why he was getting popular on television, and I have been able to figure out where he was when up through his work with EMLL. The WWE appearances are still clunky - Konnan's recollections in the WWE interview on Max Moon weren't reflective of the article's phrasing, and I think it needs to be reordered slightly as a result. Nevertheless, it's now clear when he got into the promo, and when he got out. According to the same interview, Konnan also wrestled in Japan prior to WCW or WWE, and that seems to not be UWA either, so that information needs to be located as well. I will addit and comment it out in the article. MSJapan (talk) 18:58, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Images

Flat-out fails GAC6. 30 year career, 2 pictures. MSJapan (talk) 02:45, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

• Are you serious? "Flat out fails"? *SMH* do you really gasp the GA criteria?  MPJ-DK  02:57, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes. Do you seriously mean to tell me two images is "well-illustrated" for a performer who's been on eight televised wrestling promotions and 27 TV specials? MSJapan (talk) 03:05, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

• Sooooo.... that is not actually the critera you do know that right? "Well illustrated" is not the criteria, it is in fact "Illustrated, if possible, by images" (direct quote) - with a modifier "if possible" no less. 1 picture with proper license would actually fullfill this critera. Hench my question if you actually understood the criteria.  MPJ-DK  03:16, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

And I maintain that "if possible" is very possible here, as we haven't looked at Commons, potential NFCC material, Flickr, or any of the other usual suspects. MSJapan (talk) 03:29, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

• it is illustrated, volume is not a criteria. "If possible" is to make sure that even GAs without pictures can pass. It is about the article after all. And you assume that no one has done that because YOU have not done that?

Closing comments

The entire previous discussion took place on July 26, and nothing has been posted here since. Furthermore, MSJapan has not edited on Wikipedia since September 25. I think, under the circumstances, we can consider this reassessment abandoned.

In any event, I have concerns about the reassessment properly reflecting the GA criteria; in particular MSJapan's assertion that the article "flat-out fails GAC6" is completely wrong. While it would be nice to have more images, two free images is not bad and certainly enough to satisfy the criteria, and since there are two free ones, the odds of being able to successfully assert that any non-free ones should be added are quite small.

Should MSJapan return and still believe the article doesn't meet the criteria, at this point, having made significant edits to the article, the only proper venue would be a community reassessment. For the present, this article is being kept as a GA. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

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GA Reassessment

Konnan

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Delisted per consensus. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

An "update needed" orange banner from 2019 and numerous uncited statements throughout the article, particularly in prose relating to recent bio events. Z1720 (talk) 00:43, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. The article clearly does need a run-through by someone familiar to clean stuff up to pass a reasssement. That said, the problem is not the "update needed" which should probably be removed, but rather removing fancruft and updating tone. The Update Needed banner was placed by a no-longer active editor on a version of the article that included less on his recent career than the article has now, so it can be safely removed IMO. That said, the guy is nearly 60, and obviously isn't really wrestling much anymore. I don't think there's much to say about his recent career. SnowFire (talk) 19:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Delist on verifiability and tone grounds (but not comprehensiveness grounds, per above do not think the article needs super-detailed accounts of his twilight career activities - I've boldly removed the "needs update" cleanup banner). SnowFire (talk) 18:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.