Talk:Prince of Moscow

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Prince versus grand prince

This has been discussed before at Talk:Grand Duchy of Moscow#When did Moscow become a grand principality?. I'll copy my latest comments as they are also relevant here. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:11, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In Prince of Moscow, I have just added: It is unclear when exactly the princes of Moscow started styling themselves "grand prince of Moscow" independently of their title of grand prince of Vladimir, but the addition of "grand" appears relatively late. Vasily II of Moscow referred to himself as "grand prince of Moscow and all Rus'" (velikii kniaz' i vseia Rusi) in a 1451/2 letter to the last Byzantine emperor, Constantine XI Palaiologos. If anyone knows earlier self-identifications of the Daniilovichi as "grand princes of Moscow" specifically, and not just "grand prince" due to Vladimir, that would be interesting. Before 1451, I haven't seen this. The title of "grand prince" is only used in reference to Vladimir, not to Moscow. The whole 14th century is the princes of Tver, Moscow, and Nizhny Novgorod-Suzdal trying to obtain the Golden Horde khan's jarlig for the title of grand prince of Vladimir. Nobody called themselves "grand prince of Tver/Moscow/Nizhny Novgorod-Suzdal", at least not yet. It was all about Vladimir. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:08, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have tagged this as potential OR because the wording sounded a bit different to that of the source. From what I have read the source does not mention specifically when Moscow was first used in front of Vladimir in the title and this being late. It seems to just mention the letter and that's it. Unless I am missing something. Since they were merged, it was no longer just "prince of Moscow". Mellk (talk) 22:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The only time Halperin 1987 uses "grand prince of Moscow" is in reference to Ivan III of Moscow (r. 1462 – 1505). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:12, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Martin 2007 only uses "grand prince of Moscow" in reference to Ivan III of Moscow (r. 1462 – 1505) and Vasili III of Moscow (r. 1505 – 1533). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:17, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Halperin 2022 only says "Grand Prince of Moscow Vasilii III". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:27, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Janet Martin 2007 does not explore the question either, but has a clear preference in her Index at the end of the book:
- Daniil Aleksandrovich (prince of Moscow), 177 , 178 , 191– 192 , 193 , 199 , 200 , 210
- Iurii Daniilovich (prince of Moscow and grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Ivan I Daniilovich Kalita (prince of Moscow and grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Semen Ivanovich (prince of Moscow and grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Ivan II Ivanovich (prince of Moscow and grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Dmitry Ivanovich Donskoi (prince of Moscow and grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Vasily I Dmitr'evich (grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Vasily II Vasil'evich (grand prince of Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Ivan III Vasil'evich the Great (grand prince of Moscow and Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Vasily III Ivanovich (grand prince of Moscow and Vladimir) [page numbers]
- Ivan IV Vasil'evich the Terrible (grand prince and tsar of Muscovy) [page numbers]
- Fedor Ivanovich (tsar of Muscovy) [page numbers]

We may presume that these identifications were conscious decisions made by Janet Martin. She's confident in saying Dmitry Donskoy was still just a "prince of Moscow" and separately also "grand prince of Vladimir", and that Ivan III was both. The omission of any reference to "Moscow" at all for Vasily I and Vasily II might be because she was unsure whether to identify them as "prince of Moscow" or "grand prince of Moscow". Combined with the previous, we may assume there is consensus on calling Ivan III and successors "grand prince of Moscow". Vasily II might be, but it's based on 1 single letter. For Vasily I we've got no direct evidence, and for Donskoy and earlier Martin explicitly consciously denies them "grand". I therefore recommend we call Ivan III and successors "grand prince of Moscow", and all predecessors of Ivan III "prince of Moscow" as a rule of thumb from now on for new texts. But I do not promote radically changing all existing texts, and strongly discourage any editwarring over this. It's just not very clear, but when in doubt we should follow the literature, and at present, this is what the literature seems to say. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:43, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]