Talk:Tomoi
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Cleanup
[edit]The constant edit-warring on this short little article has got to stop, so I'd like to bring up the edits by Khun krabi4 in the hope of generating some discussion and reaching a long-overdue consensus.
1. The first sentence says tomoi is the result of "Siamese influence in the area" and provides two references. However, this is not in the given citations. These references deal with the history of the Thai community in Kedah, but make no mention of tomoi or kickboxing. Am I wrong?
2. The word tomoi is usually said to be a cognate of dhoi muay rather than a derivative term. Anyone fluent in both Malay and Thai will be aware of the many cognates such as the words for "lizard", "door", "key", and the numerous Sanskrit-derived terms. Muay or moi comes from the Sanskrit mavya, therefore it would be incorrect to say that one derives from the other. They are similar because they come from the same source and because the two countries are neighbours.
3. I wrote in the article that tomoi in the Malay language refers to the local style of kickboxing while tinju is the generic word for any boxing art, particularly the western kind. I sourced a dictionary for this sentence. Yet the sentence has been edited and now defines tomoi as the "sport of Siamese Kedah", while still retaining the given source. In other words, it's not in the citation given, once again.
4. Why is so much emphasis given to Kedah when the art is most often associated with Kelantan? This is consistent with the sources provided since all of them mention Kelantan. A major reason why the sport is not so well-known today is because it was banned in Kelantan where it was most popular. The state government even planned to rename tomoi "Kelantan boxing". Yes it is practiced in Kedah and other states as well, but to state conclusively that tomoi comes from Kedah is simply not supported by any source or even general public opinion.
5. The first few sentences of the history section are atrociously-written and repeat some of the same material which I had already written in and sourced.
6. Language like "it is a clear fact" seems pointy.
7. The first paragraph of the history section does not deal with tomoi or any martial art. Why does it matter how many temples are in Kedah? What does the dominant religion or language of the state have to do with anything? The same two references are provided for the paragraph once again, and neither are relevant to the article. But the sourced paragraph is followed by the sentence "The art of "Tomoi" or "ToiMauy"(ต่อยมวย) were teach and practice among these Siamese communities in Kedah and Kelantan" which is unsourced and entirely POV.
8. The origin of Indochinese kickboxing is a disputed topic. Authors like Draeger mention Chinese and Indian influence on muay Thai, which can logically be extended to tomoi, pradal serey, etc. But then there are those (unreliable) sources which claim bokator as the common ancestor. I thought it fair to say that their origin is unclear. Yet the article states very conclusively that tomoi is of Siamese origin and goes on to mention the regional styles of muay boran. Silat Embo (the precursor of tomoi) and Siku 12 (a related style) are not mentioned.
9. "It is also a clear fact that the system of Tomoi, be the guard,stance,and striking techniques, is identical to Muay Thai." This is actually true. And putting aside any modern political boundaries, tomoi is the same as muay Thai and Muay Lao. I can say this from personal experience. However, that doesn't necessarily mean tomoi came from muay Thai. As mentioned before, they may all have their origins in Cambodia or somewhere else.
10. The history section continues by saying that boxers originally wrapped their hands in hemp ropes, and provides an irelevant source which only deals with muay Thai in Thailand. The editor then goes on to say that these hand-wraps did not exist prior to Ayutthaya. First of all, boxers fought bare-fisted before the custom of wrapping the hands. And more importantly, sources like Draeger say the date at which boxers first began wrapping their hands "cannot be known with certainty". And even if the practice does not predate Ayutthaya, that doesn't mean it comes from Ayutthaya. And even if it does, that doesn't mean tomoi comes from Thailand. That's quite a stretch. Morinae (talk) 15:25, 7 October 2015 (UTC)