Talk:Z. Marcas

Comments from Moni3

• I'll pay you cash not to use "opine" or any form of it. What a horrible word. We like to avoid each other, "opine" and I.

• I'm sure you'll enjoy "mused" much more, eh? =) Scartol • Tok 23:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• It seems the novella was a projection of Balzac's self-perception as a genius who was consistently misunderstood and abandoned despite his talents when less gifted politicians fared better. Is there any discussion about what I am perceiving as Balzac's arrogance? I'm connecting this with Balzac's political aspirations, borne of his self-perceived genius that he thought were right though he was an object of ridicule.

• His belief in himself as a misunderstood genius is presented in all sorts of ways. Because he is considered a literary genius by most critics and biographers, questions about his lacking genius in other fields is often presented as "Well you gotta expect a little bit of this, right?" Are there any spots in this article where you think there should be mention of this sort of thing? Scartol • Tok 23:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• Can you explain how the story became an accurate prediction of the 1848 Revolution?

• Yeah, that needed a bit more. I've added another sentence of explanation. Scartol • Tok 23:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• They're getting pretty sticky at FAC about right aligned images under second-level headers.

• I'm not sure what this refers to. Should I not have them? Should I only have them? Is there some change to the MOS I should know about? I suppose I'll find out soon enough... Scartol • Tok 23:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

As usual, I feel like I should be addressing more specific issues, but I found the article interesting enough to inspire me to read the story. I find fictions incomplete sometimes as there is often more to learn about the story behind the construction of the work than the work itself. This is one of those cases. Very interesting and engaging article. If you get a chance, I'd like to solicit your review on the talk page of Tipping the Velvet. --Moni3 (talk) 17:16, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll take a look soon. Thanks as always for the feedback! Off to FAC we go.. Scartol • Tok 23:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

F&f's comments

Here are my detailed comments on the lead. Please be aware that they have been written in a hurry.

Thanks for these. I don't agree with all of them, but I've made some repairs along the way. Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler's comments:

Lead

• (Sentence 1):Destitute and forgotten, he befriends a pair of students who live next door to him in a boarding-house.
  • And ...? Ends too abruptly. The reader wants some resolution, not necessarily by way of plot-line, but something that tells us you are moving on to another topic.

Okay, added: "The story follows their many discussions about the political situation in France." Scartol • Tok

• (Sentence 2): Balzac was inspired to write the story after he spotted the name on a sign outside a tailor's shop in Paris.
  • The name? Better to be clear and say, "the name, 'Z. Marcas', ..."

Added. Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• • Outside a tailor's shop? Was it the tailor's sign? If so, better to say, "spotted the name on a tailor shop's signboard in Paris," if not, why bother to tell us about the tailor?

Changed to: "on a sign for a tailor's shop in Paris". Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• (Sentence 3): It was published in July 1840, in the Revue Parisienne, a magazine he had founded himself.
  • "he had founded himself" the "himself" makes sense if we are emphasizing it for some reason; otherwise, it is better to provide us some concrete information, such as "a magazine he had founded in 18**."

Changed to: "...he had founded that year." Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• (Sentence 4): Although Z. Marcas features characters reappearing from other Balzac stories and elements of literary realism – both hallmarks of Balzac's style – it is remembered primarily for its political themes.
  • "Feature" and "appear" mean more or less the same thing. Can't you simply say, "features characters from other Balzac stories?"

Agreed. Changed. Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• • Would "features" also apply to "elements of literary realism?"

Yes. The parallel structure is as follows: The story features (1) characters... and (2) elements... Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• (Sentence 5): Balzac, a legitimist, believed that France's lack of bold leadership led to mediocrity and ruin, and that men of quality were being ignored or worse.
  • You want past perfect. so, "had led to mediocrity and ruin, and that men of quality were being ...."

Changed. Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• • "... ignored or worse." Again, leaves the reader hanging; besides, what is worse than being ignored? Too vague. Better to be concrete, "... were being ignored, or worse yet, persecuted." (ie. whatever the worse option is.)

I'm going to have to disagree here. There's no concrete suggestion of what the "worse" might be, but it's definitely there. It would be OR to use a word like "punished" or "persecuted", since he never specifies. Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• (Sentence 6): He further maintained that the youth of France were in danger of abandonment, and predicted unrest in the years to come.
  • Do you really need "further?" Why not, "He maintained/asserted that the youth ..."

It is meant as a transition phrase, indicating that it is yet another thing that he asserted. But I changed it to "maintained". Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• • "danger of abandonment?" Slightly vague. Although the reader can make the inference, it is better to be direct: "... the youth of France were in danger of being abandoned by society (or by their elders) ..."

Changed to "...were in danger of being abandoned by the government". Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• (Sentence 7): a person's name is a powerful indicator of his or her destiny, an idea he drew from the work of Laurence Sterne.
  • "indicator" is too strong a word. Do you mean "symbol," or "emblem?" Or perhaps, "a person's name is evocative of his or her destiny?"

I disagree; I spent a long time trying to pick the right word here, after reading the story, some letters he wrote at the time, the biographies, and critical responses. Balzac didn't believe a person's destiny was out of his/her hands, but that the name gave clues to what might lay ahead. I thought about "hint" or "suggestion", since the person's destiny obviously hasn't happened yet. Ultimately I think "indicator" is the best approximation. Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• (Sentence 8): The title character, with his keen intellect, is based on Balzac's conception of himself:
  • Would "modeled on" be more informative than "based on?"

I don't think so. "Modeled on" sounds intentional to me; I think it's necessary to indicate that it's at least partially unconscious. Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• (Sentence 9): a visionary genius who fails to achieve his true potential because of less talented individuals with more social power.
  • "because of" is vague. Need to clarify. Is it "because of conflict/strife with less talented individuals with more social power?" Or "because of the opposition/ill-will of less talented individuals with more social power?" etc.

I disagree that it's vague. I also don't understand the difference between the two examples provided here; the geniuses in question (Z. Marcas and Balzac himself) are in conflict with those less-talented individuals who oppose them. That seems self-evident to me in the original sentence. Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

More later, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:53, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again for your attention to detail. Scartol • Tok 14:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Second set of comments

Very welcome and thanks for replying!

Here are the second set of comments on the next three sections:

Fowler&fowler's comments, part 2:

Background

• After studying the law for three years, he wrote a number of potboiler novels under various pseudonyms while simultaneously losing large sums of borrowed money in the publishing trade.
  • Had he used borrowed money to publish his novels, and did he lose the money because his novels did not sell? If so, the connection should be stated more directly.

No, he was printing classical works, not his own. Clarified. Scartol • Tok 12:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• Although his views on politics were always changing, Balzac was a legitimist who supported the House of Bourbon and believed that the July Revolution of 1830 had left France without strong leadership.
  • Since the reader doesn't know what a legitimist is, the first part of the sentence seems logically incorrect. i.e. either say, "Although his views on politics were always changing, Balzac remained throughout a legitimist who ..." or "Although his views on politics were always changing, Balzac was mainly a legitimist who supported ..."

I went with the second suggestion, though I think "primarily" fits better than "mainly". Scartol • Tok 12:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• He later showed renewed interest in public office, but mostly expressed his political views through writing.
  • The "but" is too much of a contrast, when you are really expressing subordination of his interest in public office to his writing career (i.e. "but" would go better with, "He later showed no interest in public office, but mostly expressed ...") So, "Although he later showed renewed interest in public office, he mostly ..." would be better.

Fair enough. Changed to the second suggestion. Scartol • Tok 12:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• In July 1840 he attempted to fuse his business interest with his politics by founding a magazine called the Revue Parisienne.
  • "business interest" sounds vague since we weren't told what his business interests were. Do you want to say, "fuse his writing with his politics by ..." or "his publishing (interest) with his politics by ...?"

Given all the different articles I've written about him, it's sometimes hard to keep straight what I have and have not explained about Balzac's many business escapades. Anyway, it was his desire to make money, not particularly his love for publishing, that led him to found the Revue. Clarified. Scartol • Tok 12:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• Funded by his friend Armand Dutacq, Balzac believed he had finally learned all there was to know about publishing.
  • Makes it sound that the fact of being funded somehow led to his belief. I wonder if it might be better to combine this sentence and the next one: "Funded by his friend Armand Dutacq and believing that he had finally learned all there was to know about publishing, Balzac wrote, "[T]hat gigantic machine known as journalism is as simple as a roasting spit turned by a poodle."
  • Or, alternatively, combine the "funded by his friend Armand Dutacq" with the previous sentence.

Yeah, I combined it with the second one and tweaked the following sentence. Scartol • Tok 12:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• Balzac planned to publish his own fiction in the Revue Parisienne, especially since he disliked the popular demand for serialization in the roman-feuilleton format.
  • Do you need "especially?"

Well, his dislike for the roman-feuilleton (at least until he struck gold with it with La Cousine Bette) was important at this time, so I want to keep the point. But I changed the wording to: "...in part to challenge the popularity of the roman-feuilleton serial format". Scartol • Tok 12:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• Dutacq stopped funding the project in September, after only three issues, and Balzac's final foray into the world of publishing came to an end.
  • Since it folded up so fast, I feel, a "however" would help the reader: "Dutacq, however, stopped funding the ..."

Yeah, sure. Added. Scartol • Tok 13:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Writing and publication

• Determined to prove his point, Balzac launched a spirited search through the streets of Paris. He insisted to Gozlan that they would find a name suitable for a character
  • The first sentence is mystifying to a reader since they don't know what the search is for. Better to combine the two sentences: "Balzac insisted to Gozlan that by searching through the streets of Paris, they would find a name suitable for a ..."

Yeah, that works. Changed. Scartol • Tok 13:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• They finally came upon a sign for a tailor that enraptured Balzac, bearing the name Z. Marcas.
  • (Although very few readers will think that the tailor enraptured Balzac, it is better to be clear!) "They finally came upon a tailor's sign that enraptured Balzac, bearing the name Z. Marcas."

Dude! Misplaced modifier – wow, let's hope my students never find out about that blunder. Fixed. Scartol • Tok 13:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• He believed that the name "offrait à l'esprit je ne sais quoi de fatal" ("suggested some mysterious fatality"),
  • A reader unversed in French begins to think "offrait .." is the name. Better to include the verb in its English form: "He believed that the name suggested "l'esprit je ne sais quoi de fatal" ("some mysterious fatality"),

Yeah, that makes sense. Changed. Scartol • Tok 13:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Synopsis

• Once his associate had ascended into office, however, he abandoned Marcas, then repeated the process a second time.
  • "repeated the process a second time" is vague. Better to say, "he abandoned Marcas, then hired and abandoned him again."

Agreed. Changed. Scartol • Tok 13:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• When his politician friend seeks his help for a third time, Marcas is dismissive, but the students convince him to give the process one last chance.
  • Presumably Marcas has finished telling his story (since we are jumping to present tense). Might be better to start a new paragraph so that the present is separated from the past. Also, "When" suggests a kind of inevitability. I wonder if "Soon his politician friend seeks his help for a third time ..." might be better.

New paragraph break added. Changed the second sentence to "Eventually his politician friend...". Scartol • Tok 13:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• General remark. The synopsis seems too bare-boned. I would have definitely liked another paragraph. It is too abstract or generic. It doesn't have enough hooks to catch a reader's interest.

While obviously I appreciate your point as a reader, I must say that as a writer I'm very nervous about adding more description of the plot. For one thing, there's not much to add (especially since most of it is addressed elsewhere in the article). For another, the question of scale is important to me. To wit: the summary for La Cousine Bette is seven paragraphs, for a novel ten times (at least) the length of Z. Marcas. I don't feel that this very brief tale merits a more lengthy plot summary. Scartol • Tok 13:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

More later. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:42, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again for your meticulous commentary. Scartol • Tok 13:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Malasia

Z. Marcas#Politics and society says "Malasia". Did you mean Malaysia? Art LaPella (talk) 06:07, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Alt caption

Alt descriptions are read aloud before the caption to the pic. So the alt caption needs to be clear about the subject. A description: "Man lying on the ground, another man getting into carriage, group standing by" tells us nothing. Presumably the editor who wrote this has read the book. What scene is illustrated here? This looks to me like a holdup. The man lying on the ground looks wounded. What is it about? Amandajm (talk) 09:18, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

That's actually a good question. Someone else uploaded that image, and there was no caption. It probably connects to the scene in the story where Marcas is being left behind by his politician friend, but it's impossible to know, and this particular image is not described specifically in the text.

I was also under the assumption that we're not supposed to interpret the image. I've always tried to describe just what's there, instead of giving an interpretation or connection to a specific scene. Scartol • Tok 22:33, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Translations

I noticed that all the quotations from Balzac on this page are first given in French. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I don't think that's standard practice on Wikipedia. Normally quotations are just translated outright. I understand that for literature getting the feel of the original text is important, but if quotations from other languages aren't given in their original language I don't see why French should get special status here. Brutannica (talk) 01:58, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, this is something that has come up several times while I've worked on Balzac articles. The sense I've gotten from the community is that they're certainly not necessary in the original, but that they add a nice touch for those who can speak it. If other folks object, we can change the process. But in the meantime, it seems like it doesn't hurt to keep 'em in. Thanks for your feedback! Scartol • Tok 17:53, 25 December 2009 (UTC)