User talk:Sbones5

Welcome!

Hello, Sbones5! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! --Dynaflow babble 22:14, 3 May 2009 (UTC) Getting started A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: edit a page • upload and use images Intuitive guide to Wikipedia Getting help Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Writing articles Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Pages needing attention • Peer review Miscellaneous User name • User pages • Talk pages Clean up: General • Spam • Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

A less-templated welcome

Hi. It's actually good that you don't remember my name, because here I am just Dynaflow (about four -- or, I guess, five now -- other active Wikipedians actually know who I am IRL, and I'd like to keep it that way). Anonymity can become quite important here if you get involved in editing contentious articles. Anyway, the above, pre-formatted welcome-wagon thing is a good reference on the basics of Wikipedia. If you want quick-and-dirty guides, just take a look at Wikipedia:Tutorial and Wikipedia:Your first article. I am setting up a workspace for you inside your own userspace so you can build your article at your leisure without the risk of someone coming along and deleting it (I have heard the new-pages log called "the firehose of crap," with some justification, and some of the people who monitor it for hoaxes, vanity articles, articles on unencyclopedic topics, and other cruft can be pretty quick on the trigger if they don't immediately like the looks of something that hits their radar. There's a safety catch to that deletion process (kind of a two-man rule), but it's better to drop your first article into Mainspace fully formed and avoid that hassle.
The workshop page I made for you is at User:Sbones5/workshop. When you think your article is ready to stand on its own, you can move it into Mainspace via the "move" button (I can take care of that instead if you'd rather me do it; just leave me a note on my Talk page). Also, don't forget to add {{User ucsc}} (the brackets and the "User ucsc" inside them) to your user page. Good luck, and happy writing. --Dynaflow babble 22:41, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, also make sure to assert the notability of your subject right away in your article, and back it up with appropriate citations. See Wikipedia:Notability (people) for the notability guidelines on biographies and Wikipedia:Citing sources for how to format citations so they'll work properly in wiki-markup. --Dynaflow babble 05:48, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of James edward simpson

A tag has been placed on James edward simpson requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies. You may also wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the Article Wizard.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag - if no such tag exists then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hangon tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. --cocomonkilla ^{(talk) (contrib)} 22:32, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Category post?

Hi, I have no idea what you were trying to do when you created Category:Deletion of Pure Essence, but I've deleted it because it is clearly not a category. I've copied and pasted your original message below. Regards, Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 11:52, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

After reading the debate in the "articles for deletion" link it is much more clear to me why the article was deleted. I did see the warning on the page but I failed to understand the process of how to participate in that debate, if it were even possible for me to do so. I believe I could have added some information that may have swayed the decision not to delete and redirect the article.

Still, I feel the deletion of the article and the redirection is a mistake. Sources for the this band from the 1970's is extremely difficult to point to as web links. Most were publications that either are out of print or failed to provide their information on line. My primary source from that era is the WEBN expose and compilation record in which Pure Essence's song "Third Rock" is listed. This establishes that the band was notable enough in Cincinnati to be played and distributed on a major radio station in the city in that time. The only other thing that can be used as a source was the fact that LA Reid was a member.

Most of the rest of Pure Essence's notability comes later and much more recent. The only recorded album by Pure Essence, a two song LP, was discovered and "Third Rock" was used for a sample by well know DJ RJD2 who sampled the song for his song "Clean Living" from the album Since we Last Spoke in 2004. This caught the attention of a producer at Stones Throw Records who then located the song's creator, Steven "Tuck" Walters, who was Pure Essence's founder. With this producer's help, RJD2 , via Def Jux Records, agreed to pay royalties for the sample and Pure Essence's two song LP was given a new contract by Now and Again, a division of Stones Throw Records that distributes classic soul and funk music.

Since then "Third Rock" has been featured on many major releases of compilation albums, used in movies and even a video game:

Chrome Children

Saint's Row 2

Beats Rhymes Life Soundtrack

I could use some help in correcting these issues to help get this article verified.

I am tring to get my article verified but I am lost in all this procedure. I need help because this article is worthy and many of the surviving members of this band are actually very insulted that it's link points to LA Reid.

Re: Pure Essence

Hi Sbones5, thanks for writing to me on this matter and giving me an opportunity to expand on my thoughts from the earlier discussion. At that time, I presented what material I could find on the band after a (rather extensive) search online. As far as I could determine, the coverage for "Essence" or "Pure Essence" in reliable sources amounted to very brief mentions and were always in relation to L.A. Reid (here are three sources I came up with [1][2][3]). With that in mind, I questioned whether an independent article was warranted, especially since the L.A. Reid article, in the "Beginnings" section, contains this:

• "Reid's first began his music career as a drummer, with his first appearance on record being with the Cincinnati funk rock outfit 'Pure Essence'. Pure Essence released one solitary 45 in the mid-1970s. They later appeared on local FM rock radio station WEBN's second annual LP compilation, but the group was renamed 'Essence'."

Based on what I had seen online, these sentences on the band in the Reid bio were a pretty fair summary of the band's brief history. The total of reliably-sourced information seemed too short to simply repeat in an article on the band without additional coverage on the band as a whole. In the case of the band Death, there is detailed coverage about the band in multiple sources (for example: [4][5][6][7][8][9]). This is not to suggest that Pure Essence has to be as notable as Death (or have a film in the works) in order to have a Wiki page, but I could not find any articles focused on Pure Essence like the ones here for Death. If this kind of detailed coverage does exist, I'd be in total support of an article. It doesn't matter if the coverage is from 2014 or 1974. It just needs to be significant in length and independent of the subject - meaning, not the Pure Essence website or a fan blog/message board, but something like a magazine/newspaper/internet article. I hope this clarifies where I was coming from at the time. Cheers,  Gong show 17:43, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Gongshow, Thank you very much for your efforts to verify the page as well as hearing me out. I will get to work on providing the necessary references. I could really use your help. If you don't mind, may I post the links of what I find here in this discussion for you review on it's impact on "notability?"

Yes, feel free to post whatever you find here. I'll be happy to help as best I can.  Gong show 19:03, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Gongshow, after my first search, I wasn't able to find much in terms of media coverage. In one case, one of Pure Essence's songs was used in the documentary "Beats, Rhymes & Life: The Travels of a Tribe Called Quest" a well covered major film release but there are no links to the listing of sound track other than the wiki article. I did notice however that wiki seems to trust "allmusic.com" as a source and I was able to find ref links from that site for four different references: http://www.allmusic.com/song/wake-up-mt0044149085, http://www.allmusic.com/artist/pure-essence-mn0000722526, http://www.allmusic.com/album/chrome-children-mw0000734768, http://www.allmusic.com/album/soul-cal-disco-modern-soul-1971-1982-mw0002320198. In addition to this I found a link from IGN.com, a major video games site, for a listing of the song "Wake Up Parts 1 and 2" as part of the game "Saint's Row 2" http://www.ign.com/articles/2008/10/06/saints-row-2-music. I will keep looking.

Thanks for tracking down those sites. The first two Allmusic links and the IGN link are listings and therefore don't constitute "significant coverage" (see here for a better description on notability), although these sources can be used to supplement an article by verifying claims. The other two Allmusic links - the album reviews - are nice because they are reliable sources discussing the group:

• "Ohio's Pure Essence's "Third Rock," taken from the Soul Cal imprint, is nothing but smooth, warm funk."
• "the washy phase-damaged disco of "Wake Up" by Pure Essence couldn't even make regional waves in their day, but sound absolutely vital when plucked out of obscurity."

So that gives us a couple sentences. Ideally there would be something more substantial out there, like a longer review of the group's work or something biographical on them. Thanks again for your efforts so far! Cheers,  Gong show 17:03, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Gongshow, so I also noticed that "discogs" is a very common reference for bands on Wikipedia and I found a few links from them on Pure Essence but the most useful one is this: http://www.discogs.com/Pure-Essence-Wake-Up-Pts-1-2/release/573866, which give the basic info of who, when, where. I forgot to mention that another reason this band is notable is because of the sampling done of one of thier songs by RJD2 on his song "Clean Living" from his album "Since We Last Spoke." While there hasn't been much media coverage of this, it is easily verifiable and listed on his wiki page. He is one ofe the sites that talks about it: http://www.whosampled.com/sample/5050/RJD2-Clean-Living-Pure-Essence-Third-Rock/ The most comprehensive explanation of the group and it's history is in a book written by Soul Cal Records Producer Eothen "Egon" Alapatt. There is no link of coverage for the book but there is an editor's description on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Cal-Funky-Modern-1971-82/dp/B0078OC0ZO Pure Essence's current label also has a pretty good description of the band and it's history here: http://soulcalrecords.com/pure-essence-wake-up/ I think I've exhausted what I can find online. Anything else is going to be print material not listed online. With what I have so far, do you think it's worth attempting an appeal?

There is nothing preventing you from (re)creating an article over the current redirect. To be honest I think it's borderline whether there's enough coverage, as there are several verifiable facts (which is quite helpful, so kudos on finding these!), but no independent magazine/newspaper/internet write-ups. I did find a couple more mentions within album reviews by Pitchfork [10] and Stylus [11]. My best advice is to incorporate these (as well as the Allmusic reviews you found up above) as much as possible to demonstrate that reliable sources have taken notice of the group. Here are some example sentences - feel free to use these in your sandbox or when re-recreating the article:

• The song "Third Rock" was sampled on RJD2's "Clean Living", from his 2004 album Since We Last Spoke. In comparing the original version with the sample, Tal Rosenberg of Stylus Magazine wrote that the band "performs the track better than what was already a highlight on Since We Last Spoke."
• "Third Rock" was later included on the Chrome Children compilation, a co-production of Stones Throw Records and Adult Swim released in 2006. Marisa Brown of Allmusic said that the song "is nothing but smooth, warm funk." Pitchfork Media's Ryan Dombal called the song a "Sly Stone-style 1970s gem".
• Another Pure Essence song, "Wake Up", was described by Allmusic's Fred Thomas as "washy phase-damaged disco" that sounds "absolutely vital when plucked out of obscurity." The song was featured in the 2008 video game Saints Row 2.

I hope this helps!  Gong show 07:23, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Gongshow, yes I would like to try resubmitting the article. I have a couple of questions; How do I reconnect the title "Pure Essence (band)" overriding the re directing to "L.A. Reid"? Also, would you mind looking it over and make sure my references are in the right place? I've updated the page in my sandbox. Thank again for all your help!!

You're welcome! A couple more bits of advice: in the "Re Birth" section of your sandbox version, delete the asterisks so that the text is in the preferred paragraph form. Also, the "Biography" section is completely unreferenced so I would include some kind of source or two in there to verify that info, even if it's the label's website or the band's website. At the very bottom the ":"'s before each "Category" should be deleted. When you're ready to create the page, just go here, click "Edit" and paste the article over the text. Good luck!  Gong show 15:08, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi Gongshow, I completed your edits and uploded the page. I got some kind of warning from a bot that took down the page. I tried to follow the instructions and re-upload it but it is still redirecting to LA Ried. Can you help? Thanks!

Looking at the article's edit history, the editor who originally nominated the article for deletion re-redirected the article, most likely because the newer version was not substantially different from the old version. The content is pretty much identical except for the new paragraph in the "Re Birth" section. Perhaps there is material that can be used to beef up the "Biography" section so that it's more reliant on third-party sources. Feel free to make additions to the article in your sandbox if you find any more interviews/reviews/etc and I'll also do some searching over the next day or two.  Gong show 22:02, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

I suppose that it's possible the editor is making it re direct but I tried to upload the article abuot 3 times and it was instantaneous. I don't know how these things work but could they be that fast? If it's some kind of automatic function, would I need to appeal to them directly to get them to turn it off? I will keep digging for information. This is actually still a developing story and new material pops up occasionally. The part I most disagree with though is that it re-directs to LA Reid. I think if the article is not noteworthy enough, then it should simply not exist. LA Reid was the most notable member now but he was not a founder of the band, he did not write any of the songs, and he does not encompass all that that band was(is). It would be something like if the Death (band) page re directed to Clive Davis. He offered them a deal but refused to sign them unless they changed their name. Obviously that didn't happen and they lived in obscurity for the next 30 years. It's not exactly the same thing. Reid was a member of Pure Essence but while he went on to fame and fortune, the other members of Pure Essence faded into obscurity, some of them struggling to make a living to this day, and one of the founding members and song writers passed away years ago. Again I appreciate your help, let me know if you find anything.

I found some more sources, and then went ahead and rewrote the article, which is now posted. I understand your concerns about LA Reid not being a founder of the band and being just one member - I hope you will find that the new version is completely sourced based on reliable, independent sources, thereby making it more likely to survive as a standalone article (as opposed to a redirect). If you come across additional information on the band feel free to add it to the article. Cheers,  Gong show 00:31, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

March 2014

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