User talk:Valereee

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Gourmand Cookbook Award

I came across this award reviewing a draft and it appears to be a notable award mentioned in several articles. Thought you might be interested in creating an article. See also es:Gourmand World Cookbook Awards. S0091 (talk) 16:09, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Hm, it has an entry in 8 language wikis. Definitely seems worth investigating, thanks! Valereee (talk) 17:37, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Question

Valereee, I don't want the talk page to drag on as I feel like other users have made their decision on how they stand on me. To clarify, is me discussing on the talk page like this here still sealioning? I just want to know I'm at least heading in the right direction and would appreciate guidance. If you can't offer it either, if you could point me in the direction of an area on the site that can, I'd be grateful. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:26, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I haven't assessed the situation at Talk:The Inner Sanctum Mysteries (film series), but you have contributed nearly 80% of the text on that talk page, so in all likelihood, yes, you're sealioning there. Valereee (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay. I appreciate you telling me. I'm really really confused on the topic as its predominantly about content without a source being added. What would be a better approach? Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:30, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

As difficult as sealioning is to prove and assess, it often seems equally difficult for those doing it to understand what they're doing. Others do this:

1. They accept it when consensus is against them, even if they think that consensus is wrong
2. They don't ask for explanations over and over again when people have already explained, even if they don't feel the explanation is correct
3. They avoid generating huge amounts of text for others to wade through

Honestly, since you don't really understand it and can't seem to help yourself, you'd be best off just making a rule for yourself that you will limit yourself to one argument per section on a talk page (and this doesn't mean open a new section every time you have a followup question; one and done, that's it), and never reverting any nonvandalistic edit within any article more than once. Valereee (talk) 14:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

That's probably a good rule of thumb for me going forward. This is the kind of advice I was sort of looking for from the beginning. I know I've caused a lot of editors grief and frustration and I want to be easier to deal with, so I'll try to say thank you and try not to pester you further. :) Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I think that percentage one is a bit misleading. Most of the information added to the article was what I had added as well, but with a source. Some of the information it was replaced with changed some things (release dates, etc.) without a source. So I know you haven't looked into it, but I think that may factor in here if we are trying to reach brass tacks about it. But I could be wrong, I appreciate you taking the time to check it out. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:33, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Hey Valereee, I don't really expect you to use me as some sort of guidance, but I feel like any suggestion I make on that talk page when I ask for something as wikipedia basic as a source is being snarked at me sealioning. This is why I re-did the article in the first place as content was unsourced and I expanded it with what little sources I could find. I feel like locking me out here or feeling like i'm on watch has given any user I respond to just leaping on me that i'm on the attack. I really don't know what I should or should not comment when suggestions are immediately responded with attacks. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:56, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I get it. It's not fun, but when someone exhibits a behavior -- and sealioning, as I've pointed out, is an incredibly frustrating and difficult to deal with behavior -- people do kind of watch for that behavior to happen again and probably scrutinize for it more carefully than they otherwise would. I've started a section at the page to help try to moderate, but you did say you thought only responding once within a given section -- and not opening new sections to allow you to follow up -- was a good idea, but you aren't really doing that. Do you really need to keep asking for sources when multiple others are telling you they believe the sources are sufficient? Can you maybe consider walking away for a while, giving people a chance to work, and then maybe circle back in six months? Valereee (talk) 18:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Valereee, with all respect you did not even let me respond to you talk page post you removed here. My issue is that nearly all content being suggested to be added is without any source. This series is complex as many old hollywood films are. As you can see from the Dracula (Universal film series) article, academics do not even agree with what should belong to that series. It grows even more complex with the Universal Monsters and the suggestions assume some films belong, others do not. I'm also trying to avoid WP:OR and WP:RS and I think anyone vaguely familiar with these rules would.

I really appreciated the olive branch you tossed out with your question towards me, I only wish you gave me time to reply, because I was really trying not to make it a wall of text, calling out any specific editors, but still clearly getting my point across. As I've stated on your talk page before that. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:39, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, @Andrzejbanas, but it's been too much. The consensus remark was the last straw for me. Valereee (talk) 18:50, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm aware of what your reasoning. I was really excited you asked me for my opinion as I felt like at least one user wasn't seeing me as a sealioning, and I responded to it here as I felt you were discussing content and not user actions.

Prior to your entry to the article and my banning from it, I asked questions before even editing it to shake a perceived notion that i'm owning it or anything. an editor even encouraged me to go ahead without asking. Suddenly, once users tagged me as a sealion, I've been watched with hawk eyes for anything resembling sea lioning. I appreciate you giving me a chance, but I'm just really disappointed with your course of action. I hope if we edit again in the future, we can apply WP:ETIQUETTE and I'm not out to trap any other editor. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Felt the need to jump in here. While there are a number of examples we could look at, Andrzejbanas, let's use the one you just provided. You had an opportunity to course correct in this discussion and move closer to compromise, right up to the point you dropped this comment: "You are really obsessed with cast and crew." Any goodwill you should have been attempting to salvage or earn back from your peers at that article gets sabotaged with comments like that, which places others back into a defensive posture. DisneyMetalhead had just left you some positive feedback, showing a willingness to compromise and move forward, yet you proceeded in typical fashion with a narrow, self-serving focus. A great opportunity to mend relations was lost here; many editors with your experience would have instantly recognized this as the perfect time to pause and simply "thank" DMh for the kind feedback.

Littered throughout these talk page discussions are reminders from you directed at other editors to remain WP:CIVIL and to focus on content, like you did recently here and here, yet you aren't heeding your own advice when you call out another user's obsession, or especially when you launch a personal attack. Have you read WP:POTKETTLE? You speak about all this animosity and unfair judgement directed at you, but the underlying issue is failing to take accountability for your own actions and behavior. --GoneIn60 (talk) 21:45, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@GoneIn60:, I'm going to acknowledge that I have been full of contradictions. Thanks for pointing this out. I've also posted several times (and if you are were traipsing through my comments, I said that lately, I've felt like I've been watched like a hawk for people trying to catch me slipping up." Thank you for confirming that is exactly what is happening. Not sure what the end goal of this is, but yes, it might have made my etiquette slip. If you want to discuss with me on what I can do and how you could help. Fantastic. Would love to hear it. Perhaps on my talk page or yours. You made good points and I'll be an adult and respect them. As stated, I feel like I've got hawk eyes on me for any edits as of late. Please discuss with me on my talk page, as I'm feeling a bit hounded. I've already apologized to you for past incidents, which is you know, following WP:ETIQUETTE. I'd suggest you follow the previous rule, and I really don't think it would be respectful to just link to a bunch of diff pages as I would really like to move on and try to edit. Cheers. Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:20, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Despite the path you appear to be stuck on, there are still signs that you care to learn and improve from a discussion we had, which is why I jumped in above. For editors that are clearly wasting the community's time, I wouldn't have bothered. If you genuinely want to improve and change course, the comments above should help with that personal journey. I actually had Valereee's talk page on my watchlist for a short time after she left a note on my talk page earlier this year. Of course, I don't want you to feel hounded, so I can certainly abstain from providing feedback (on pages other than your talk page) if that is your desire. --GoneIn60 (talk) 03:05, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Some falafel for you!

Saw the interesting page you started on food controversy. That's great coverage of this notable subject in the appropriate place. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 15:18, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm not too sure about where it seems to be headed at this point lol... Valereee (talk) 15:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

And falafel is on the menu for dinner tonight at our house. :D Valereee (talk) 15:32, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm smart enough not to inquire as to which legume. SPECIFICO talk 15:37, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

(talk page stalker), have you come across any literature discussing pita bread in this context? I remember reviewing Israeli pita a long time ago and feeling like it was a POV-fork, but I didn't have any academic sources on hand with which I could evaluate that suspicion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:45, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen sources argue about who invented pita, but unfortunately I don't remember any actual academic ones, but I would be shocked if they aren't out there. That Israeli pita article looks like a fork to me, too.

Speaking purely from an OR standpoint: what we call pita (a flat bread with a pocket) is quite likely just a happy accident from very-quickly making and cooking flatbread, which is a type of bread that has been made since humans started grinding grain into flour in order to cook it faster. The fact you end up with a pocket helps the bread cook more quickly. Then the pocket collapses and the bread becomes easy to stack in a small space and transport without being crushed, which was probably what people were going for. So when our article is arguing that the pockets were some sort of modern development as a part of Israeli cuisine...unlikely. It's possible that intentionally going for the pockets in order to fill them is a recent development, and certainly possible that flatbread with intentional pockets developed among Jews migrating into the area and setting up non-nomadic households, though. Interesting question! Valereee (talk) 16:16, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

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Sealioning and Etiquette

Thanks for the clear response on DMh's talk page about the Xfd. I don't want this to be a big headache for anyone, but I want some clarity. If you could explain the actions or my questions, I'd feel really satisfied and can edit with a clearer head. Being banned for saying "I don't know what consensus between two editors is supposed to be", was a "last straw". I'm sorry, I just really am struggling to see how this was sealioning, antagonistic, uncivil, without etiquette or anything that was ban-worthy. Maybe it was a sliver flippant, and if so, I'm sorry. I feel like I'm being watched like a hawk and editors are calling me a sealion every second edit I make. I've re-read what I wrote and meant it like "we're getting nowhere." I'm not sure how you read it, but I really want to understand so I feel I can edit comfortably and not bother you or any other editor.

As users are expecting me to respond to edits, locking me out from a talk page where I was what I believed to relatively civil conversation with editors. I'd really relish the opportunity to try and improve the article with them. Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:26, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Scratch this. I'm going with it's the "when it's you and I". That was really uncalled for and I was wrong. I think its hang over from the editor removing my deletion of image requests, and editors constantly saying i'm a sealion and I can't be trusted. I feel like editors can get on scott free, and I've had issues with the editor removing cited material and replacing it with unsourced content here: here, removing deletion requests here, and our conversations boil down to saying "this information is noteworthy". I should step away though. You are correct. I'm sorry for wasting your time. Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:39, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

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LTA user reassurance attempt

Hi. I'm a neurodivergent long-term user that's recently returned under a new username. I've been reading about some of those reassurance comments that you've been posting lately and have been very impressed with the way they've been written. Anyway, I'm determined with the experience I've gained to step forward and speak to the user, User:MidAtlanticBaby. However, I'm not sure what's the best way to contact this user so that he/she can respond, and it's not helped by the fact this user's already globally blocked. I also have limits of my own as to what forms of contact I can use myself. This was one of the reasons I decided to come back onto Wikipedia, as I believe the biggest trolls are the ones that they believe to be blocked unfairly, which I believe is the case here (and is still ongoing today). A^♭m ^(Ring!) _(Notes) 09:05, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm a bit confused as to why you'd want to do this or what you'd want to reassure this person of, but you've got email enabled, and they aren't blocked from sending email, so if you want to discuss with this person I guess you could post on their talk to email you. Valereee (talk) 12:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd rather not show my email out at this point, so I'll leave it for the time being. Thanks for your suggestion, though. A^♭m ^(Ring!) _(Notes) 12:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

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Request

Per your request, I can avoid contact with editors for that article. I feel this will not help the article as the content suggested contradicts sources provided and already established and have had no contention against them.

Somewhat unrelated and you don't have to answer this obviously, but why was it an indefinite ban, instead of a timed one? Is my track record? I would find it much easier to ignore the block if I didn't get a big banner across my screen whenever I check my own edits. Its a bit of a double-edged sword on moving on. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:39, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I know this seems counterintuitive, but an indefinite block is seen as less harsh than a timed one by many admins, including me, as many admins are reluctant to lift a timed block, but an indef can generally be appealed at any time.

And a timed block is seen as less effective by many admins, as it can simply be waited out. An indefinite requires the blocked editor to understand the reason for the block and to commit to changing their behavior.

Re: your track record. Blocks are not punishment, if that's what you're asking. They're always intended to be preventative.

Where are you seeing the banner? If it's at the article in question, I'd recommend you just stop looking at that article. Just take it off your watch and ignore it.

Valereee (talk) 19:14, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh it's not on the article. It's on my user contribution page. it's obviously not the end of the world to see it, but a giant red warning banner does not make me want to contribute any more or less.

I honestly can look at the article, and do not mind looking at it and am curious what changes are being made. While I should probably stop approaching DMh, I can't see how their current path towards their edits passes any basic original research statements or rules about lists. The article isn't destroyed or anything but I don't think this me being picky about rules, this is standard stuff and I feel my ban has suggested and the users comments when you've asked me to stop interacting has suggested that they are free to go beyond what sources state. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:42, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

200 editors have that article on their watch list, a dozen of whom visited in the last month. If someone's edits don't pass basic policy, someone will notice. Maybe give it some time, see what result they come up with, instead of commenting on each step while they're still working. Valereee (talk) 11:02, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't mind 200 editors on a watchlist, but please do not pretend that is a reason that it was considered workable. I was the only editor involved in the discussion, and less than 10% of people having that item on a watchlist responded following you banning on the article. " If someone's edits don't pass basic policy, someone will notice.", and I've presented it right here. You have been active in keeping up with the article as you approached the move on it. I don't think you have to correct it, but its not exactly invisible that content has been changed in the lead and prose that contradicts information brought up as early as a few days ago on two talk pages you have interacted with. You don't have to do anything about this, but lets just be clear that is the result of all this. Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:04, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I can't correct it. Taking a position in a content dispute would make me an editor at that article, which would mean I cannot act as an admin there. And I'm not pretending anything. Valereee (talk) 13:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with admin policies, so I appreciate you telling me. Just a forward for you approaching me or others as I've pointed out, highlighting things in green seems to give off the same effect as shouting. I do not think that's your intention, but regardless, I think my statement above stands. I don't expect you to change it, but edits without sources was exactly the kind of content that editors and YouTubers unfamiliar with wikipedia policy were lobbying at me before. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:02, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Highlighting in green indicates you're quoting a previous poster, in this case you. It's done via a template like Template:Talk quote inline or Template:Xt. It's pretty commonly used in discussions. Valereee (talk) 14:29, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Since I was talked about without pinging my name (again), and as things are being stated about my contributions at the article in question -- I will not engage in this conversation, other than to say that I haven't removed any sources/references from the article. I am trying to constructively assist with a page that has been plagued by poor form for years. As Valereee pointed out there will/should be various editors contributing. Not one single editor controlling what is on the page (i.e.: you). DisneyMetalhead (talk) 06:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

A Multi-Barnstar

		The Multiple Barnstar
		I am going to post these 7 barnstars (or technically EIGHT given that the Multi-Barnstar is a recognition all its own), to acknowledge the hugely appreciated various things you did recently. As initially started here you took on a monster (puns intended) of a task for a discussion that had been ongoing and one-sided for the last 6 years (detailed extensively in a podcast video here). Throughout the process you were unbiased, and maintained peace with various editors. You were skilled and eloquent with the instructions and direction you provided. You were civil, and kept your cool when things begin to become contentious. Furthermore as an admin, you had to make a difficult decision which ultimately assisted the article in question, and allows editors to contribute with resolving a situation that had spiraled out of control and stems from a case of WP:SEALIONing. Thank you for your help on the article, thank you for helping to maintain a positive/constructive community, and thank you for assistance on my talk-page as well. Cheers m8! DisneyMetalhead (talk) 06:12, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, DM! Very kind. Valereee (talk) 11:43, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

That's creative. Stealing the multi-barnstar format. BorgQueen (talk) 16:30, 17 August 2024 (UTC)