Location via proxy:   [ UP ]  
[Report a bug]   [Manage cookies]                
Jump to content

Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See also Wikipedia talk:Speedy deletions for discussions which took place in 2006-7 before it was redirected here.

Template doc pages that have been converted

[edit]

There are two types of template /doc pages that have been sent to TfD and always deleted. Navigation templates that had their doc converted to {{Navbox documentation}} and WikiProject banners that had their doc converted to the automatic one with |DOC=auto. Can these be tagged with G6? Sending them to TfD really adds nothing to the process. Gonnym (talk) 08:36, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've tagged such pages with WP:G6 before, giving a justification like "template uses {{navdoc}} instead", and it's always worked fine. As long as the /doc page is just boilerplate (as opposed to substantial/unique to its template), I think it's clearly uncontroversial maintenance. jlwoodwa (talk) 04:52, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which highlights the problem with G6 that no two people agree on what exactly it includes. If I were still an admin patrolling speedy deletions I would not have been willing to carry out such requests. * Pppery * it has begun... 05:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am also such an admin. Primefac (talk) 21:48, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New T-criteria proposal

[edit]

Based on the above, and the fact that despite multiple admins indicating that G6 shouldn't be used for /doc deletion in the Template space, I would like to propose that we add a new T-criteria specifically to fix this issue. It would be something along the lines of TX: documentation subpages that are no longer transcluded by the parent template. I'm happy to discuss wording and scope (or clarifications as to what constitutes "no longer used"), but from a point of initial consideration:

  1. Objective: yes, as a /doc is either transcluded by its parent template (or for whatever reason, any template) or it is not
  2. Uncontestable: the only situation where I could see an unused /doc needing to be kept is for cases of attribution (if it were copied to another /doc for example) but in those cases it should just be redirected anyway. At TFD they are 100% deleted.
  3. Frequent: I decline at least one per week, and TFD is rife with them.
  4. Nonredundant: As indicated in the discussion in the main section, we are misusing G6 to allow for deletion, which seems to be the only other criteria that people seem to want to chuck these under.

Thanks for the consideration. Primefac (talk) 21:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-RFC finalisation

[edit]

Before I put this forward as a formal RFC, are there any final thoughts about the wording of the new criteria based on the discussion above? Primefac (talk) 17:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is centralised documentation intended as the only reason for lack of use that allows for speedy deletion or is it intended that all unused documentation subpages are eligible? I can see the current wording being read both ways. If the intent is the latter then rewording to ...documentation subpages which are no longer used (e.g. due to centralized documentation) would solve the issue (as would just removing what I've put as a parenthetical). If the former is intended then someone better at wordsmithing than me will need to have at it.
As for {{T5-exempt}}, I'd say it would be beneficial as there are bound to be some pages that appear unused but actually aren't (something related to subst-only templates, or uncommon options in transitory templates) or which are needed for some other not-immediately-obvious purpose. Thryduulf (talk) 19:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The most common reason I see for /doc pages nominated for G6 is when it is a "simple" /doc (maybe only containing {{collapsible option}} or similar) where the documentation gets moved to the main template and the /doc is no longer necessary. Other situations do include where multiple similar templates end up sharing a /doc, but usually what happens there is they are all redirected to that central /doc. Primefac (talk) 21:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like HouseBlaster's statement, but I wonder if the confusion comes because it's three long examples given after the initial statement; would it be better to say just simply This applies to unused subpages of templates. Such pages include template documentation subpages... (i.e. split it into two sentences). That might reduce the confusion of it only being centralised /docs. Primefac (talk) 12:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That works. Thryduulf (talk) 19:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What about using a bulleted list, like WP:G8?

T5. Unused template subpages

This applies to unused subpages of templates, such as:

It excludes /testcases and /sandbox subpages, as well as anything tagged with {{T5-exempt}}. Reasonable exceptions apply for subpages which will be used soon, and editors are free to request undeletion.

HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A+ Primefac (talk) 12:19, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Thryduulf (talk) 00:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We should also probably include the current de-facto process of Category:Unnecessary taxonomy templates here as well. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I seriously love that I can still learn about new processes on Wikipedia. Probably not the best from a WP:CREEP perspective, but I still find it cool.

T5. Unused template subpages

This applies to unused subpages of templates, such as:

  • Template documentation subpages unused by the template itself
  • /core subpages which are not called by the template itself
  • Old subpages of {{POTD protected}}
  • Unnecessary subpages of {{Taxonomy}}, e.g. because it is incorrectly set up, or relates to a taxon no longer used

It excludes /testcases and /sandbox subpages, as well as anything tagged with {{T5-exempt}}. Reasonable exceptions apply for subpages which will be used soon, and editors are free to request undeletion.

HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 04:56, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. We currently process a ton of subtemplates at TFD after the deletion of the primary template (this is backward to the proposal and discussion here, so it's not the exact same case) as G8. Is there merit to spinning that out of G8? Izno (talk) 05:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see the rationale, but I do agree it's the opposite end of the spectrum. I wouldn't be opposed but I don't necessarily see it as being necessary to combine them. Primefac (talk) 12:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not seeing much benefit in moving something which is a core part of G8 out of that criterion. Thryduulf (talk) 14:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a bit late to this party, but I submit for consideration, somewhat warily, Editnotices that are no longer used, typically because they have been blanked after sanctions expired or someone thought better of having an edit notice at all. We can use the "blanked by author" criterion for some of them, but most are blanked by people who did not create the notices. See this TFD. I will understand if including them would stretch the definition of this criterion, since they are not subpages, but they are in template space and tied to specific pages. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:51, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would best to propose edit notices as a separate criterion, because as you say it's a stretch to include them with this one. My only query would be how frequent deletion of them is? Thryduulf (talk) 21:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, edit notices are all subpages of Template:Editnotices, so it is not that much of a stretch to include them. However, I think to simplify things, we should have a separate discussion after the T5 discussion where we can consider whether it is frequent enough to merit a CSD and, if so, whether it should be T6 or a bullet point in T5.
I will launch an RfC in 24 hours if there are no further comments/objections/feedback to the proposal above. Best, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:30, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's OK with me to exclude it here. There are maybe about 100 to 200 blank editnotices right now, but I don't think anyone has been paying attention to them (many were blanked in 2021), so I'm guessing that deletion rates would be something in the low single digits per month. TFD is probably fine unless someone wants to go to the trouble of making a separate CSD criterion. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to launch the RfC, but it turns out there is one additional thing we need to determine. WP:TCSD, while currently obsolete, used to apply to both templates and modules. I see no reason T5 should not apply to modules, given that modules are really templates which we have to put in a different namespace due to technical restrictions. I think adding subpages of Module:Sandbox to the list of things ineligible for T5 would solve any problems. Do others have thoughts? HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 00:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From the perspective of someone largely ignorant about modules your proposal makes sense, but defer to those who know what they are talking about if they disagree. Thryduulf (talk) 00:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense to me too as a module namespace regular. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me. Primefac (talk) 13:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Enacting T5 (unused template subpages)

[edit]
ENACTED
There is strong consensus to enact T5 as a new criterion for speedy deletion. Participants argued that this criterion would reduce the load on G6, and highlighted that deleted pages would be eligible for WP:REFUND. Some editors noted that deleting administrators should take special care in identifying templates and modules orphaned in error, as well as when dealing with taxonomy-related pages.

Frostly (talk) 05:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(non-admin closure)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should T5 be enacted as a new criterion for speedy deletion for templates and modules? HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed text

T5. Unused template subpages

This applies to unused subpages of templates, such as:

  • Template documentation subpages unused by the template itself
  • /core subpages which are not called by the template itself
  • Old subpages of {{POTD protected}}
  • Unnecessary subpages of {{Taxonomy}}, e.g. because it is incorrectly set up, or relates to a taxon no longer used

It excludes /testcases and /sandbox subpages, subpages of Module:Sandbox, as well as anything tagged with {{T5-exempt}}. Reasonable exceptions apply for subpages which will be used soon, and editors are free to request undeletion.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Author removal

[edit]

T5 should allow removal by the creator of the page, right? Seems uncontroversial but needs to be added to the list. * Pppery * it has begun... 05:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree on both counts. Thryduulf (talk) 11:37, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed; easy enough to tag something with {{t5-exempt}} in those cases. Primefac (talk) 13:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree as well. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Circumventing a salted title: G4 or not?

[edit]

It isn't very rare to see salted pages being recreated at variants of their original title, for instance Arshin Mehta Actress today (as Arshin Mehta is fully protected from recreation). In these cases, I've seen G4 be used, although it might not necessarily fit if the content isn't the same as the deleted one. Does G4 still apply, should it be expanded/another criterion added, or is that something that shouldn't be in the purview of CSD? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:35, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

G4 applies since there was an AFD on the same topic (assuming concerns haven't been addressed) but not simply because of the salt. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:38, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still surprised that evading a salted title isn't considered an explicit CSD criterion, since the salting is usually there to prevent users from recreating any page on the topic to begin with, not just a substantially similar one. Although I don't have the numbers to check how frequently it happens. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:42, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
/Archive 88#Proposed new or modified criterion: clear SALT evasion * Pppery * it has begun... 17:44, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for both the previous proposal and the false positive list! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:55, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I've G4-deleted the recreation and blocked the account (which was the same one that created the version at AfD) as spam/advertising-only. I came extremely close to title blacklisting, but decided that step isn't quite warranted unless they evade the block and create another version at a different title. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:43, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have a database report I look at every day or two that finds articles at titles that are a suffix of a salted title. There are a lot of false positives, but also a lot of stuff needing attention. And while G4 is my most common reaction, I have also created redirects or given name pages over obsolete saltings, started AfDs where I wasn't convinced enough that G4 applies, and done a lot of other stuff. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:55, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is that, if we don't have a G4 equivalent for salt evasion, it means running through a new AfD each time someone tries to give a different title to the same topic, which goes against the point of salting to begin with. Often, the fact that the content might be technically different (since non-admin reviewers can't see the content) means that G4 won't necessarily be applied, even if it doesn't address the issues of the previous AfD at all.
In the case of obsolete saltings, I believe the best course of action would be to ask to create the page at the original title – if it is still the same topic, I don't see why creating the page under a different title would be necessary (and, if it is a different topic like in your given name page example, then it's not salt evasion to begin with). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:54, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If there has been an AFD for the previous salted title then G4 applies regardless of title (unless concerns have addressed) otherwise G5, A7 or G11 often apply if not then AFD is probably the best thing to do. In the case of Arshin Mehta Actress G4 applied (G5 might also have applied but I don't know) and was used even though it had a different title to the article deleted at AFD. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:58, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
True, but the issue is that G4 currently explicitly refers to sufficiently identical copies, something a non-admin patroller can't check, rather than any recreation not addressing concerns. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 13:47, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you're not sure if G4 applies then you can tag the page with {{salt}}, ask the deleting admin (or another admin) or just tag it with G4 and see if the new admin thinks G4 applies. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:36, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell, {{salt}} on its own doesn't add any categories to a page. jlwoodwa (talk) 05:18, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well that could be something useful to have. Given the specific title, I wonder if it should add the category itself or if there should be a similar maintenance template for "possible salt evasion" that would add it? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:19, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes there'll be an archived copy of a deleted page to compare against, for instance [1]. Sometimes there'll be visible past versions in the edit filter log, for instance Special:AbuseLog/39211633. In other cases, you can ask an admin. There's usually someone around on IRC or Discord who wouldn't mind assessing for G4ability. (Not me. Don't ask me. I hate doing G4s.) That said, I wouldn't oppose the creation of a template that says essentially "This page was created in apparent evasion of creation protection at {{{1}}}, and an admin is asked to assess whether it should a) be deleted under CSD G4 or b) treated as valid and moved to the correct title". I don't think that's something non-admins should be doing every time they see a recreated page, but when there's clear salt evasion I think it's reasonable to presume admin attention is needed. (All that said, obligatory plug for my essay WP:NOSALT. G4s are easier to trace when there's no salting to evade!) -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 20:33, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I to question how useful salting actually is especially how easy it is to use a qualified title or typo etc. But in addition to false positives with the title blacklist I'd point out that while indefinite salting may be useful for generic vandalism titles or if a title like Articles for deletion before it was a mainspace redirect that different people are likely to keep creating, many indefinitely salted articles are those created by sockpuppeteers, spammers or SPAs years ago where the person may well have long left or the topic may have become notable or a different topic with the same name may need the title. I'd suggest we should perhaps recommend only salting for a year or so for many NN topics. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:36, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the easiest solution to the general problem you describe would be a sentence at WP:SALT saying that salted titles that could plausibly refer to more than one thing may be unsalted, without needing to talk to the protecting admin, if there is no apparent relevant disruption in the past five years. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 21:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apparent to who? If a title's salted, there's not going to be any further disruption there. (Well, maybe on its talk page, but almost nobody persists after the first G8, and when they do, that usually gets salted too.) Most of the point of talking to the protecting admin is because they're likely to be more familiar with the situation as a whole, and if it's been five years, taking another day or two to ask and make sure isn't going to hurt anybody. —Cryptic 23:32, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is that normal WP:RAAA requirements make it essentially impossible to clean up pointless old saltings at scale. A while ago I tried to do a review of indef IP blocks, and quickly ran into this problem. For each block, if I wasn't 100% confident they'd just pressed the wrong button, I had to go to the blocking admin's talkpage, and then check back a few days later, and then if they object, even for an invalid reason, it has to go to AN or XRV to resolve the minor question of some random IP's block, so in practice no one does this, and bad IP indefs accumulate over time. The same is happening with saltings, and will continue to happen so long as there's a multi-step bureaucracy in order to unsalt a relatively common name like Jimmie Harris or Luke Barber, to pick two examples that have been salted for almost 17 years and have a ~0% chance of being recreated about the same person as before. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 23:53, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And, of course, Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive229#Quick stats on salted pages. The protecting admin for both of your examples is no longer an admin, so you should be free to unsalt them. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:10, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To clean up old SALTing, where there’s any doubt you should go to WP:RFUP. True, you should ask the deleting admin first, but the text would be near identical in both places, should the old admin not answer or you not agree with their answer.
Do this a couple of dozen times, and then talk about the need for streamlining the process. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think admins need to ask at RFUP before they unsalt pages. jlwoodwa (talk) 04:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Except where stated otherwise in policy, any reversion of an admin action is governed by WP:RAAA. The way that policy is usually interpreted, that means that if the reversion is because of a clear change in circumstance, it can be done unilaterally; I did that with Willy on Wheels, the relevant change there having been the emergence of a suitable redirect target. But if it's because some admin thinks the title just doesn't need to be protected anymore, then RAAA's expectation of discussion applies (if the protecting admin is still active). WP:IAR and WP:NOTBURO might cover some common-sense cases, but wouldn't apply to a systematic effort. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 05:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with your essay! For the case where we already have a salted title and there is possible of salt evasion, I made a prototype template at {{User:Chaotic Enby/Salt evasion}} based on your wording (and the design of {{Salt}}), happy to hear any feedback on whether it should be implemented! (presumably, with a corresponding tracking category) Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:16, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding the "possible salt evasion" template

[edit]

Following the above discussion, I have made a prototype for a template alerting administrators of possible salt evasion, which is currently at {{User:Chaotic Enby/Salt evasion}}. What do we think about moving this to templatespace, with a corresponding tracking category, and adding a bullet point to WP:G4 mentioning its existence? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's redundant to {{salt}}. Just give it its parameters (which you should always be doing anyway). —Cryptic 17:09, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not really, {{salt}} is to ask for a page to be salted, while this would be to note evasion from an already salted title. Also, {{salt}} does not produce categories (as it is meant to be used alongside G4), while this would be to alert admins that they should check if it might be a G4 (as non-admins cannot see it). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:22, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A7 and groups of people

[edit]

WP:A7 is applicable to "people". Is there any reason why it has to be a single person, rather than a group of people?--Bbb23 (talk) 00:22, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, no. Changing it from a single person to "persons" was the very first expansion of A7 (linked discussion here), about half a year after it was first introduced. The last vestige of "groups" was removed in this edit, which was labeled a revert and a clarification but was neither. —Cryptic 01:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You do have a way with words. So, just to be clear, A7 would therefore apply to clans and tribes, right?--Bbb23 (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why not. —Cryptic 01:37, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:48, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RFC on interpretation of G11

[edit]

See Wikipedia:Username policy/ORGNAME/G11 in sandboxes RFC. El Beeblerino if you're not into the whole brevity thing 21:20, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you ought to sign your proposal.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:33, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like policy RFCs shouldn't be about who started them, and WP:RFC says "Sign the statement with either ~~~~ (name, time and date) or ~~~~~ (just the time and date). El Beeblerino if you're not into the whole brevity thing 22:18, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't know that - shows you how often I start RfCs...never. How about publicizing it at WP:AN? I wouldn't have known about it except I had the CSD Talk page on my watchlist because of a question I recently asked. Sounds like the RfC affects admins a fair amount.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:41, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&oldid=1266093081"