User talk:Adelpine

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Again, welcome! Mglovesfun (talk) 21:01, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

{{t-}} is deprecated.

This isn't a huge deal, but FYI, {{t-}} has long since been deprecated, and should no longer be used; see Wiktionary:Votes/2013-09/Translation-links to other Wiktionaries. (I mention this because you added it in this edit to 'nonrecurring'.)

Thanks, and happy New Year!
—Ruakh_TALK
20:25, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

LinguaLibre audios

Hello, I noticed you added my pronunciation audio for bifurcate - I am not sure if this info came from Lingua Libre somewhere and I forgot where to change it, but I am not sure if Audio (UK) is correct. My upbringing was between a mix of cultures and I actually live in the US; I guess my accent is something between US and UK English. Maybe you are discerning based on the individual word if it matches a specific dialect tendency and English (UK) makes sense, I am not sure. Or maybe my dialect could be considered under the umbrella of "Multicultural British English" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicultural_London_English). Curious what you think عُثمان (talk) 21:55, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Although, I will add - since I do not use Wiktionary often I am not sure if the heading above is supposed to indicate the dialect of the audio. While British English is probably fine as a simplification, I do take issue with "Received Pronunciation" if that is being implied haha. My background isn't that posh! --عُثمان (talk) 22:00, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@عُثمانHello: In general, I cannot hear a word and identify its dialect, so I use the name of the audio (if it contains the origin). Otherwise, I search for the origin on the user page or in the Lingua Libre Description (place of learning). I used the latter to label your audios. In a few cases, I took it from another Wiktionary.

Regarding the heading "Received Pronunciation" or "UK," I usually put the same as the Wiktionary from which I took the IPA pronunciation.

Greetings. Adelpine (talk) 00:58, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

OK that makes sense - in that case everything can stay the same then. Basing it on that information, that is accurate, it makes sense that the Received Pronunciation refers to the IPA. Sorry for any confusion! عُثمان (talk) 17:01, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Deleting pronunciation at skeletal

Please don’t do this - it doesn’t matter if you think it “violates a stress rule” (which?), because it still exists. We are not prescriptive, and since you are not a native speaker it is a really bad idea to infer things like this. Theknightwho (talk) 08:24, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

English -ity: ɾ vs t̬

Greetings Adelpine,

According to the Cambridge Dictionary (and others), the IPA notation for the US pronunciation of the -ity suffix is /-ə.t̬i/, rather than using ɾ. Would you mind changing the affected entries to avoid [əɾi]? Chealer (talk) 05:17, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chealer Greetings Chealer: I myself started using [t̬] but after reading changed my mind. I give you a couple of examples. w:Flapping uses [ɾ] instead of [t̬]. "The proper (narrow) phonetic symbol for the alveolar tap is ɾ." (https://www.antimoon.com/how/flap-t.htm). Good bye! (Adelpine (talk) 12:33, 11 January 2024 (UTC))

Thank you Adelpine

Do you recognize that:

1. Neither of these sources is authoritative.
2. As explained in Wikipedia's article, flapping or tapping is complex.
3. antimoon's FAQ also uses t̬, and even uses it exclusively in section "When is the flap t used?"

Chealer (talk) 13:57, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chealer AFAIK, the linguists do not agree if [ɾ] and [t̬] are the same or not. Wait and see! Meanwhile, we can take it easy; the English, French, and Spanish wiktionaries in their lists of IPA symbols include only [ɾ]. If someday they include [t̬], we can think it over. Adelpine, 11 January 2024

The Wiktionary edition of each language is incomplete until we make it complete. That being said [t̬] is a combination of symbols t, which is definitely listed in all these editions, and the diacritic, which is covered at least in English. Not having listed a symbol would never be a reason to change it to one that "sounds close enough".

I agree that linguists probably don't agree, but that was not what I was asking. Assuming you agree with the above statements, do you agree that using just [ɾ] can be misleading and this would be best left to linguists or native speakers? --Chealer (talk) 18:16, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chealer As a Spanish native speaker I distinguish [t], [d] and [ɾ] (used as an allophone of 'r' as in the Spanish words 'pero' and 'cero').

For me, [t̬] and [ɾ] are the same. Do you distinguish them? And [t̬] and [d]? Adelpine (talk) 19:16, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

It's fairly subtle, but I would say I can make both distinctions, yes. --Chealer (talk) 12:11, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chealer I counted the uses of [t̬] (10) and [ɾ] (1839) in Wikipedia. In the uses of [t̬], appears Estonian, an African Language and English. I saw Youtube videos with [t̬] and I arrived to the conclusion that everybody thinks that [t̬] is pronounced as [ɾ]. Certainly, [ɾ] has its own symbol on the IPA chart by a good reason: its widespread use. The question is why a few dictionaries use [t̬]? Adelpine, 13 January 2024

Could you clarify a bit how you computed that, or exactly what you counted? Was it just the English Wikipedia or all editions? The reason why t̬ does not have its own symbol on the IPA chart is that it is composed.--Chealer (talk) 04:41, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chealer I counted only the English Wikipedia from within (Google finds more). One of the findings of Google is a very interesting discussion which I hope you read. Adelpine (talk) 19:00, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks Adelpine

I cannot see the list of usages, but I imagine that the English Wikipedia mostly documents the pronunciation of foreign words, so the frequency of IPA symbols in English Wikipedia is probably not a good reference to estimate how widespread IPA symbols are in general.

In any case, do you agree that this topic is complex and there seems to be no consensus on which symbol best represents the US pronunciation of these "t"-s? Chealer (talk) 03:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chealer I agree this is a complex theme, but I found some facts: A) In the discussion says, "Even John Wells, whose Longman Pronunciation Dictionary uses ⟨t̬⟩ to denote a flapped /t/, ..." However, this dictionary has abandoned the ⟨t̬⟩ notation. There must be a good reason, considering the prestige of Wells. B) Others use [t̬] to denote a place "...where a “flap t” is normally pronounced in American English." As I represent the phonemes between slashes // (in this case /t/) and the allophones in square brackets [] (in this case [ɾ]), it is unnecessary to use [t̬] to denote both /t/ and [ɾ]. C) Most dictionaries don't use IPA or use a variation of it (I suppose to capture the audience or to avoid that someone plagiarizes their transcriptions). D) Some Americans pronounce /d/ as [ɾ], even I found a video with someone who pronounced both t and d the same.

In conclusion, we should use [ɾ]. Do you agree? Thanks for your interest in improving Wiktionary! -- Adelpine, 17 January 2024

I am not knowledgeable enough about linguistics to tell. When did the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary abandon the ⟨t̬⟩ notation? --Chealer (talk) 19:02, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

@ChealerI did not find the answer to your question on the Internet.

Anyway, I regret that you did not understand my reply. However, the person in the video speaks both "flap t" and "flap d" the same. If you find someone who pronounces them differently, tell me. I will investigate it.

Cheers! Adelpine (talk) 21:41, 17 January 2024 (UTC)