Disputatio:Commune

Wouldn't Municipuim fit this category? Commune doesn't look too latin to me. The Spanish word for commune seems to be municipio...--Xaverius 14:57, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(PD: And it is not in my dictionary)--Xaverius 17:15, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah Definitely Municipium is the correct word not commune. Look at the spanish wiki page for es:Municipium they describe what it meant in roman days.--Rafaelgarcia 15:48, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are, however, thousands of links to "commune" when meaning "municipio"; changing them will take a lot of effort. What do others think - should this be moved to municipium?--Xaverius 17:14, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Commune is a Latin word (neuter sg. of communis, used as a noun) but what authority this usage has I don't know. I have used it regularly, as the almost-perfect equivalent to French commune and modern Greek Κοινότητα. If others feel that the meaning is identical with municipium then the article could be moved, with a redirect at commune. No problem. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:25, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see now, I hadn't thought it as coming from communis, for I saw it clearly French. It is a very interesting topic: in Romance languages both derivatives from Municipium and Commune are used, but maybe the closest Roman word to "minimal self-governing divission of a country: city and its territory" (which is what I understand as "commune" or "municipio") might well be Municipium. Thankfully, there are pople here who know a lot more and we can ask for opinions.--Xaverius 17:52, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think "municipium" is larger than "commune". Municipium is more of a capital of region with several communes. --Alex1011 14:53, 5 Novembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On reflection I think so too. We should have a separate article for Municipium. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:11, 5 Novembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In my dictionary municipium is "country town", "free town". Commune is "common wealth, commune (in the modern sense)". Municipium seems to be not the smallest entity, but a somewhat larger one. --Alex1011 20:40, 15 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I actually moved that independens urbs to municipium to avoid confusion (if you didn't see that already). I had a look in L&S and it does list commune (n.) as an equivalent to κοινον (community). This is backed up by A smaller Latin Dictionary (containing loci from Cicero and Ovid). I'll put those into the page now (along with Stowasser). Harrissimo 21:33, 15 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Commune can in special cases mean state (like Greek κοινόν): Cicero has commune Siciliae and Milyadum, Ovid (a poet, I know) adds commune gentis Pelasgae. But administrative unit is rather far-fetched. Municipium is even worse, since in classical parlance it is a terminus technicus with an extremely narrow meaning, namely town with Roman civic rights and administered by magistrates of its own (almost makes you think of Vicipaedia as a municipium ...). I suggest pagus.--Ceylon 21:57, 15 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just added those actually! I am following Alex's Stowasser and what I get from A smaller Latin-English Dictionary and L&S. The definition of what we are calling commune here; what English Wikipedia calls a "municipality" is defined thus: "...composed of a clearly defined territory and its population and commonly denotes a city, town, or village, or a small grouping of them." A problem with trying to express all these different administrative divisions in latin is that words overlap. Pagus (alongside regio, provincia) is a prime example. My reason for not wanting to use it in this instance is because it signifies something in the countryside and also I think we call districts pagi and several countries will have both districts and communes. I'm not saying commune is any way perfect, of course, those writers probably intended it as something much larger but from the newer dictionaries making the connexions, we may be able to make it work? Harrissimo 22:21, 15 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Also, your definition of municipium above is exactly what is intended! Harrissimo 22:26, 15 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Sorry, I didn't notice we were working on it at the same time. Still I can't see from the quotations that commune can mean a town or village, it means (or rather, it CAN mean - it's a pretty rare meaning in fact) state (Gemeinwesen) which seems to be quite different. I agree pagus has shortcomings of its own, primarily the rural connotation.--Ceylon 22:32, 15 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then we come to the T-junction of either choosing this obscure commune which is sourced for commune/municipality only in Stowasser or trying to find another term - I'm pretty sure there will be one for this somewhere. I'll have a look around Words/L&S/Other dictionaries and see what I can come up with. Harrissimo 22:48, 15 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Maybe it would help to look into (republican, imperial, medieval) Roman administration, too. I vaguely recall that the divisions and subdivisions were changed around quite a lot - maybe we'd find a suitable term there. If not, I'd probably prefer municipium.--Ceylon 23:04, 15 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Commune = Common?

Unless an apter word than commune exists for the English word referring to the common of a town or city (e.g., Boston Common, Concord Common), a disambiguation page is needed. Or is ager publicus the best Latin for this sense of the English word? IacobusAmor 03:14, 21 Septembris 2009 (UTC)[reply]