Disputatio:Tokugawa Bakufu

Titulus

"Shogunate" is an English word, isn't it? So what language is "siogunate"?
Where does the spelling "Tocugaua" come from?

Seems to me we could call this "Tokugawa bakufu" (since we use the standard international transliteration for Japanese) or maybe "Dictatura Tokugawa". I don't know the history well enough to choose, but either of those would suit our rules. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:54, 10 Ianuarii 2013 (UTC)[reply]

None. I approximated the Tokugawa Shogunate to Latin translitteration. Dictatura might not be good. The Shoguns pretended to represent the Emperor(like the Pope). Although the Tokugwa Shoguns were the real rulers, they avoided using the equivalent word emperor, and ceremonously maintained the separate traditional emperor.Tokugawa Bakufu might also be good. Tokugawa Bakufu means something like Tokugawa, inside-the-tent government. Tokugawa Shogunate means something like Tokugawa Shogun/(Military General) government.Jondel (disputatio) 13:16, 10 Ianuarii 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm thinking we have no reason to go via English, so if "shogunate" is an English word, it's not for us. I understand what you say about "Dictatura", so I think maybe "Tokugawa Bakufu" is best to begin with. The explanation about the generals representing the emperor is important but belongs more in the text of the article. OK? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:22, 10 Ianuarii 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tokugawa Bakufu is great. (I am investigating Tokugawa Shogunate now )We can include the representation (inter reges?) later. I will work on expanding later.Jondel (disputatio) 13:27, 10 Ianuarii 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Shogunate, a perfectly good English word (so listed in Merriam-Webster), was formed as shogun + -ate, and back formation from that might produce Latin siogunatus, -ūs, but that'd look unacceptably contrived, unless an attestation of it were to turn up. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:00, 10 Ianuarii 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks is useful info. I guess we can't contrive things. Anyway,Andrew's move seem good. I will try to search for any latin source with shogunate once in a while.Jondel (disputatio) 03:06, 11 Ianuarii 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry

Sorry, I didn't check the Japanese. The Japanese wiki uses Edo Bakufu but says 'also called Tokugawa Bakufu' . So neither Shogunate nor Siogunate should be used. Jondel (disputatio) 13:42, 10 Ianuarii 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As described above, the shogun would seem somewhat analogous with the Imperator Romanus, the Roman boss who ruled de facto while the regular cursus honorum, featuring the seeming authority of the consuls, continued pro forma, so the obvious word would be imperator, except that that word is already taken in Japanese contexts. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:00, 10 Ianuarii 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For shogunate as 'military governorship', several possibilities come to mind: dominatio militaris, dominatus militaris, regimen militare. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:04, 10 Ianuarii 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I moved to Tokugawa Bakufu temporarily, but I think "regimen militare Tokugawa", your last suggestion, is hard to beat. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:11, 10 Ianuarii 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This looks great. I would like to focus on expanding (extremely slowly :( )and adding fontes now, but I can't help but make use of Iacobu's suggestion and will insert it later/eventually. Please feel free to move though.Jondel (disputatio) 03:09, 11 Ianuarii 2013 (UTC)[reply]