Ubricht Trial Day 5

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
v.
ROSS WILLIAM ULBRICHT,
6
7
14 Cr. 68 (KBF)
Defendant.
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New York, N.Y.

January 21, 2015
9:22 a.m.
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Before:
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HON. KATHERINE B. FORREST,

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District Judge
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APPEARANCES
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PREET BHARARA,
United States Attorney for the
Southern District of New York
BY: SERRIN A. TURNER
TIMOTHY HOWARD
Assistant United States Attorneys
JOSHUA LEWIS DRATEL
LINDSAY LEWIS
JOSHUA HOROWITZ
Attorneys for Defendant
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- also present 22
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Special Agent Vincent D'Agostino

Molly Rosen, Government Paralegal
Nicholas Evert, Government Paralegal
Sharon Kim, Government Intern
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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(Trial resumed; jury not present)
(Case called)
THE COURT: Good morning to all of you.
The first thing I would like to do is to have you,
Mr. Dratel, while I am addressing a couple of other matters
gather up what I have been referring to as the AA posts that
you wanted to compare to the mises piece, the mises.org piece,
so I can just take a quick look at them. I have reviewed the
portion of the transcript yesterday, as I had told you I would,
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early relating to that discussion. So I just want to take a
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quick look and see whether or not we're able to do anything
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with that.
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MR. DRATEL: I'm not sure what the Court means in

terms of are you talking about the language analysis?
THE COURT: Yes. We dealt at sidebar with an
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evidentiary issue, and you wanted to use some mises posts of
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some sort with the Silk Road forum.
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MR. DRATEL: No, it is not the mises posts with the

Silk Road forum. What it was was --
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THE COURT: Two different. One was a mises.org.
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MR. DRATEL: It was not mises.org necessarily. It was
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this witness' analysis, comparison of the writing that he
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attributed to Anand Athavale and Dread Pirate Roberts' writing
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as well in comparison.
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THE COURT: Do you have -SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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MR. DRATEL: Yes. I can find it from the 3500 --
THE COURT: If you can. Because what I am wondering
is whether or not there is a way of doing something that is a
factual-based series of questions. In other words, in terms of
were you familiar with these mises whatever they are called,
whatever the right word is called. Did you review them in the
course of your investigation? Yes. And did they have the
following name associated with it? Or whatever they are. Did
you separately look at Y? And then you can draw -- he can't
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talk about his conclusions, and I won't let him talk about his
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assumptions, but you can, through argument, draw whatever
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inferences you want to draw. This is the first issue. Yes.
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But I need to see the stuff -- before I even know if that
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works, I need to see the materials.
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MR. DRATEL: Sure.
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MR. TURNER: Your Honor.
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THE COURT: Yes.
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MR. TURNER: I don't think the defense has the actual
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mises.org. The defense is referring to the defendant's own
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analysis.
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THE COURT: I understand he has referred to it like
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that. I'm trying to get underneath that and to see if there is
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something factually that will work. So let me see what he's
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got and then we'll figure out if there is anything that we can
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do with it.
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The conclusions of the analysis I'm not allowing in,
but whether or not there is the data that he used to do the
comparison, this witness used to do the comparison, whether or
not that could be presented to him. Did you use this data?
Yes. Did you compare it to this? Yes. That is something that
I want to assess.
MR. TURNER: We would still be left with the
authentication issue, your Honor. This witness does not have
the necessary foundation to --
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THE COURT: I believe that if he physically possessed
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the documents, then Mr. Dratel can resolve that by saying did
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you do anything to determine other than the fact that you
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printed these off the Internet. I mean, it is up to argument,
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the weight that the jury gives it. They are not coming in for
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the truth. They are not going to be -- let me just see what
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he's got. OK? We've got other issues to deal with. Let me
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deal with some other issues first. OK?
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The other issue is Complaint Paragraph 22C. I have
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reviewed case law relating to the admissibility of complaints
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signed by government agents. I believe that Mr. Dratel is
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correct that that one paragraph can be put in. I didn't
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receive any letters from you folks. So it's Paragraph 22C.
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Now, the way that that would be done would be stating:
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In September 2013, the government made the following statement,
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and the paragraph would be read in its entirety. But based

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upon the Ramirez case, in the Second Circuit 1990, as well as
some certain other cases, that appears to be something which
can be done.
Mr. Turner.
MR. TURNER: Your Honor, we haven't had a chance to
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look at that case. We ask for the opportunity to do so.

THE COURT: Did you find any other cases? You folks
were tasked last night with coming up with any case law you
felt was supportive of your respective positions?
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MR. TURNER: That was considered hearsay. The problem
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is the defendant isn't even offering it for the truth. They
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are offering it to try to impeach him, essentially.
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THE CLERK: He offered them separately. He made a
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proffer. I agree with you, and I had considered whether or not
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this should be done in the context of the defense case. That
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is one possible issue.
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However, Mr. Dratel did specifically recite the
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hearsay rules to get it in as an admission. In fact, he cited
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three of them, one of which I think is more applicable than the
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other two; that is the party admission.
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MR. TURNER: But, your Honor, that principle applies
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when the party is trying to put that proposition in for the
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truth. What they're trying to do is say the government made an
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inaccurate statement. They are trying to sort of impeach this
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statement.
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THE COURT: No. I think his theory, from his opening,
which is why I've also considered the materiality of it and
wondered whether this is a collateral issue solely for
impeachment but then I recalled that in his opening Mr. Dratel,
as I understand part of your point, it's that this website was
alleged to have been making money hand over fist. So where
is -- show me the money. Basically, where's the beef. And if
the defendant wasn't caught with the beef, then that's a point
Mr. Dratel wants to make, that that absence is an additional
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circumstantial fact supportive of identity.
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I think that is the argument. So I think he wants it

in for the truth. Am I wrong about that?
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MR. DRATEL: No, your Honor. You are correct. It is
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an admission and it doesn't have to impeach, and the Court is
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correct with respect to the GAF case.
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THE COURT: Yes, I have read the GAF case.
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MR. DRATEL: It is really dispositive. It also says
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that a party -- and, also, the Court mentioned Ramirez, also,
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Warren, you know -- and I will just quote from it, where,
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quote, the government has indicated in a sworn affidavit to a
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judicial officer that it believes particular statements are
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trustworthy, close quote, the Court -- and then the quote
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continues -- may not sustain an objection to the subsequent
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introduction of those statements on grounds that they are
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hearsay.
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THE COURT: Right.
MR. DRATEL: That is 22 --
THE COURT: Yes, I read the Warren case. I think that
is a D.C. Circuit case. The GAF case had to do with a bill of
particulars, but I think it is sufficiently close that the
principle applies.
MR. DRATEL: Right. And I think, also, GAF also
stands for the proposition that even if the party changes its
strategy or its position in litigation, that prior position is
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admissible.
THE COURT: That was the situation in GAF where they
had two different bill of particulars.
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MR. TURNER: Your Honor, if I may?
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THE COURT: Yes.
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MR. TURNER: First of all, the government would like
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an opportunity to look at this law, and this is law that we
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haven't had an opportunity to see. It is not an urgent --
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THE COURT: You were supposed to look at it last
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night. I did last night go over the things that were going on
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for this morning.
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MR. TURNER: We did, your Honor, but we never received
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anything from the defense. We don't know what specific cases
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your Honor looked at. We would simply like an opportunity to
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take a look at those cases ourselves and address them.
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I want to make clear, though, your Honor, the

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government is not changing its position. The amount of
bitcoins we're talking about is still the same.
THE COURT: It is still 1,229,456?
MR. TURNER: It is slightly higher, but the point is
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the valuation -THE COURT: That is actually stated here. That
bitcoins had fluctuated greatly. That actually is why, in
terms of completeness, I had suggested that Mr. Dratel would
read the entirety of the paragraph.
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MR. TURNER: Precisely. That is why this is going to
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cause juror confusion. The amount of bitcoins is not
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significantly changing --
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THE COURT: If you folks can find cases contrary to --
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I think Mr. Dratel has got his hands on the rights cases, which
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are the same ones I have looked at, with the addition of the
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Santos case, which is a case where the Second Circuit
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actually -- it was an old case. It was pre-rules. But then
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later on, in a later case, the Second Circuit ends up saying we
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want to reaffirm the holding in Santos. If you want to take a
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quick look?
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But at this point, Mr. Dratel, if you wanted to use
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this for impeachment, you can use anything for impeachment.
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But in terms of reading it, we'll hold off for a little while.
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You can do that at any point in time. You can do it when the
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government rests, but I'm not at this point going to have a

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ruling stand yet that he is precluded from reading it, because
I think the better reading is that as to this paragraph he can
read it.
MR. TURNER: Your Honor, one more suggestion. We're
going to have a witness toward the end of our case who is going
to testify about the statistics, about the bitcoins that were
seized from the defendant's computer, from the Silk Road
server. If the defense wants to use it in the course of
cross-examination to try and impeach the witness' statement or
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something like that, I think it would make a lot more sense
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then. All I'm saying is that there is no urgency now in case
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you --
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THE COURT: The point is that I want to make sure that
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while the current witness is still on the stand Mr. Dratel has
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an opportunity to use this. The witness may have in fact read
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the Complaint in this action. If the witness, who has
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testified about the amount that he found in certain accounts
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was X, if this is of any value to impeachment, I don't know
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that it is, but I want to make sure that there is no ruling
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precluding the use of 22C from the Complaint for impeachment
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purposes.
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Moreover, separately, and at another time, it is my
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inclination to allow it to be read in as a party admission. A
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party admission need not be an inconsistent statement to come
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in. But we don't have to -- I agree with you on the latter

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point that we don't have to face that issue until a little bit
later. But I want to make sure Mr. Dratel understands he can
use 22C.
MR. DRATEL: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Now, the other issue is -- I'm
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waiting for the mises.org -MR. DRATEL: I'm trying to look for them and engage in
the discussion at the same time.
By the way, your Honor, yesterday I believe what he
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said was you did not ask for a letter from us, you had the
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cases, indicating the cases.
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THE COURT: The last thing, while you are looking for
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the mises stuff -- let me just tell you while you are looking
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for it, what I am thinking of, Mr. Dratel, is literally taking
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the two factual pieces, the mises piece and the other piece,
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asking him have you looked at each of them. Not asking him
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about his conclusions. And if then you want to ask him did he
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notice the word ABC and it happens to match ABC, he can stay
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yes, but not ask him if he drew any conclusions about whether
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this guy was DPR. What you can then do is through argument
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draw whatever inferences you believe are appropriate. But it's
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the factual back and forth that I think could be appropriate
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while the speculative conclusions would not be.
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MR. DRATEL: OK.
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THE COURT: OK. That is what I am thinking. We'll

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see if the evidence would work.

MR. TURNER: Your Honor, again, the evidence is being
offered that Anand Athavale posted these things, and all that
would be relied upon would be a page that the agent --
THE COURT: You can go back and say -- I mean, I would
expect Mr. Dratel would have no problem saying: Do you know
for a fact who posted these?
MR. TURNER: Right.
THE COURT: And this guy can say: No. All I know is
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they were associated with this name. I didn't do any
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independent verification.
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MR. TURNER: Then it should not come in. It is a

threshold issue, your Honor -THE COURT: No. Because I will tell you why it is
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relevant. It is relevant because during the course of the
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investigation there was an exercise that was done, and I'm not
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putting it in for the truth of whether these are from Anad,
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whatever his name was, or not, that there were certain
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materials -- they could have been from a trashcan -- compared
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to other materials. It was part of what he did. I'm not
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asking or confirming whether or not Anad was in fact the author
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of the mises piece at all. It is just that he did this
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analysis. He compared the two. And then we can figure out
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where to go.
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But the fact of the comparison I don't believe is

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hearsay. I don't believe it's irrelevant because it's
probative of identity, which is a material issue in dispute.
And I believe that his exercise -- whether the exercise was
based upon competent evidence or not is a different issue.
It's not the pages which are being admitted for some sort of
truth-finding exercise, it is the exercise.
MR. TURNER: It is not a hearsay issue, your Honor. I
am not arguing it is a hearsay issue. It is an authenticity
issue --
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THE COURT: No. But the authenticity is that -- I
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mean, all I need these pages for, to come in for, the only
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purpose is that those are the pages he used. They're authentic
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pages which he used. Whether they are in fact authentic from
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mises or in fact authentically from a particular person is
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different from whether he in fact held them in his hands or
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looked at them on the screen and used them. If you have doubt
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that these are the pages he used, then we have an authenticity
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issue. If there is no doubt that these are the pages he used,
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it is not about authenticity of the pages, it's about
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authenticity of the underlying information.
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MR. TURNER: The government, your Honor, so if you
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look at Vayner, the issue there was the document -- there has
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to be evidence the document is what it purported to be.
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THE COURT: And that was a pause. What it purported

to be were the pages this fellow used.
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MR. TURNER: Right. In Vayner it was purported to be
the Russian Facebook page of the defendant. OK? And the Court
just didn't say, well, there are pages on the Internet and that
is fine. The Court said that they're being offered as pages of
this particular defendant and there has to be authentication.
If I may? Here, it's clear the defense is offering
this as pages posted by Anad Athavale. So Vayner carries over.
You can't simply have the agent say, well, I had his name Anad
Athavale on it and, therefore, that is enough to authenticate
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it.
THE COURT: No. I think that the purpose in Facebook
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was to show that particular statements in Facebook were true
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and that were statements of the posting party. That's not part
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of this exercise.
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MR. TURNER: It wasn't to show that they were true.
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It wasn't a hearsay issue, your Honor. It was an
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authentication issue.
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THE COURT: Before they got to the hearsay issue.
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MR. TURNER: The point is this exercise your Honor is
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referring to is only relevant insofar as they are trying to
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show an alternative perpetrator theory.
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THE COURT: Yes.
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MR. TURNER: The alternative perpetrator theory is
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there is this guy out there, Anad Athavale, and he posted all
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of these things on mises.org, and his language choices match up

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with Dread Pirate Roberts. Things like he spelled "a lot"
a-l-o-t instead of with a space. It is actually quite silly
when you look at it closely. In any event, in order to prove
that theory, like your Honor explained yesterday, you have to
have the chain of inferences laid out. You have to be able to
offer the chain of inferences. Here it is a key inference or
it is a key point along that chain of inference that the pages
at mises that this Agent looked at were Anad Athavale's actual
posts.
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THE COURT: What I'm suggesting is he cannot testify
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and would not be allowed to testify that these were Anad
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Athavale's posts. All he can say is I found these -- as part
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of my investigation, I found these things on the Internet. I
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did the following comparison to things on Silk Road. Full
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stop.
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MR. TURNER: And as long as there is absolutely no

mention of Anad Athavale --
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THE COURT: Not "no mention." He can look at the page
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and say this, but he can also say I have no idea whether it was
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him or not. I have no idea if John Doe posted these. All I
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know is that was the name.
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MR. TURNER: But, your Honor, if that had been the way
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things go in Vayner, then the Court would have said, well, no,
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it is fine, just let it in and then the jury can be instructed
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that the agent has no way of authenticating this issue but it

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should go to the jury anyway. That is not how the Vayner Court
applied the rule. It is a threshold issue.
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THE CLERK: I hear you. I am using it for a different

purpose.
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Let me see the information on both sides of this. I

don't know if it works in the way that I'm suggesting.
MR. TURNER: And, again, we just stress that the
proper way -- if the defense wants to establish this theory,
the proper way to do it is actually put the mises.org posts
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before the jury, properly authenticate them. Then they can
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draw the inferences. They don't need the agent to do so. The
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agent's opinion --
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THE COURT: He is not going to draw -- I am not going

to let him draw his conclusions.
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MR. TURNER: Then there is really no need for the

agent to testify about it.
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THE COURT: Here's the point. Part of his
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investigation was looking at a variety of information, and
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there were a variety of facts which indicated circumstantially
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and built a case. These are among the facts that eventually
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circumstantially fell off. The jury might credit them more
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than he credited them, but it is up to them to credit them.
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And --
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MR. TURNER: This is exactly what the Johnson line of

cases talks about, that sort of the investigative background,
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the story of how the investigation proceeded, is not relevant
and that --
THE COURT: But that was for the investigative
background to show -- in the Johnson case, it was to show
really sort of important things coming in that were hearsay as
background. And the Court said no, no, no, no, no, you can't
wedge in as background these clearly disputed issues of fact.
That's the Johnson case.
That's not this. Let me see what Mr. Dratel has.
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This may or may not go anywhere, but I do want to see what the
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lay of the land is.
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MR. TURNER: OK. But just to finish the thought, I
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think the Court in Johnson emphasized the dangers of
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introducing background evidence like this, because it can give
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the impression the agent found this important, the agent, you
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know, had suspicions about this evidence at the time. That is
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why the Court said it's generally not relevant, and --
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THE COURT: I hear your point.
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Mr. Dratel, do you have anything to hand over?
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MR. DRATEL: Yes, I do, your Honor. Thanks. Some of
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them are not consecutive so I've -- well, there are a couple --
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I've categoried them --
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THE COURT: Can I have the prosecution come up here as

well? Walk me through these.
MR. DRATEL: Oh, sure. This is all from the 3500,
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obviously. This is from emails, and then the top part is a
profile of Mr. Athavale.
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MR. TURNER: Can we be clear when you are talking

about emails?
MR. DRATEL: Emails from the agent. This is an email
from the agent or a report, really, from the agent. And it
lists first the usernames -- I mean the IP addresses,
usernames. And then on this page it starts with the writing
analysis that he has done.
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There is an earlier -- there is also a report that he
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has written, which is another part, which is essentially the
12
same but it just appears in a different part of the 3500, where
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he talks about there is an extensive analysis of distinct
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writing styles, sayings, spelling mistakes, clichs, and
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specific nuances which have led to determining -- and then it
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is redacted -- it is a highly likely target. In fact, four
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pages are redacted. I think it is what is in this report and
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in other parts of the 3500. I don't really understand the
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redactions. There are a lot of redactions in the 3500 of the
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agent. For a period, I assume, that they had things that were
21
properly redacted. I think this is not properly redacted, but
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I imagine that we have it in this report so I'm not sure that
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there is an issue.
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But, anyway, then he goes on to list them in about six

pages worth. And he also talks at another point about -- and
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I'm not sure if it is in this one. Let me just see if it is in
this part, where he talks about having sent it to a college
professor.
MR. TURNER: Is it irrelevant?
MR. DRATEL: The fact that he sent it is not a
conclusion. If the government wants to bring out a conclusion,
that's fine.
(Pause)
THE COURT: Do you have the -- what you have here --
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and I'm focused on the "boths," do you have the two things that
11
were being looked at that resulted in that determination?
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MR. DRATEL: No, I don't have the mises posts because
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it is just digested here. This is the sort of longer version
14
of that in terms of it has the quotes pulled out, to a certain
15
extent, on what he based it on. There is another section in
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this part that goes into it in greater detail in terms of the
17
analysis.
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MR. TURNER: Your Honor, what's being done here is we
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are talking about thousands of posts. Instead of trying to get
20
a competent representation of those posts, he is just drawing
21
on this agent's memories, this agent's perceptions. If it is
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going to be done right, the right way to do it is to have the
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actual documents themselves. This is akin to us drawing
24
somebody off the streets and saying, hey, do you remember
25
looking at a bunch of posts on a website and were there

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similarities between the posts and what you saw on the Web
page. That is an improper way to prove our case. It should be
an improper way for the defense to prove their case.
THE COURT: The difference is this is an agent who is
not pulled off the street who was tasked with being careful and
accurate within the constraints.
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Here's what we're going to do. We're going to -- let

me just sort of see if I can do a series of questions.
(Pause)
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THE COURT: What are these things called, these posts?
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MR. TURNER: It is a report of email. I can go back
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13
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and find the first page.

THE COURT: What was he comparing it to, the mises
compared to?
15
MR. TURNER: To DPR posts.
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THE COURT: On what?
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MR. TURNER: On the forum -- also, everything he gets
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his hands on from DPR.

THE COURT: OK. This is what I am going to allow.
I'm going to allow questions along the following lines.
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MR. TURNER: Should I take notes?
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THE COURT: No, I'm going to hand you my page.
23
Did you look at the posts from the mises.org? Whose
24
name appeared? Do you know if in fact it was this person? He
25
will say no. Did you confirm that it was this person? So it
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is clear he did not confirm. Did you compare what you found
from the mises' posts to anything else, in fact, to the DPR
forum? Yes. Did you look at words? Yes. Did you make
certain factual determinations as to the appearance of words in
certain places? Yes.
What I do not want, and will not allow, is his
conclusion here where he talks in the first one: "Both use the
same writing style." OK? He can't say that.
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MR. DRATEL: Right.

THE COURT: But he can say both spell the word
11
"realtime" with a hyphen. That is an English language
12
comparison. The government can then go back on cross and
13
unsettle, undo the mises posts.
14
MR. TURNER: Your Honor, I just want to make sure we
15
have a clear record. When your Honor says the agent can be
16
asked did you do anything to confirm this came from this
17
person, that goes to the reliability of the document. And
18
that's the whole point of the rules of evidence, that documents
19
that aren't proven to be reliable should not come in in the
20
first place. That is the very reason -- the same thing with
21
the LinkedIn pages yesterday. If they cannot be shown to come
22
under a hearsay exception, they can't just go to the jury with
23
the instruction that they can't be -- that the agent didn't do
24
anything --
25
THE COURT: Well, what you can do on cross-examination

(212) 805-0300
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Trial
is bring out that he has no idea if this was from this person
or another person or the man on the moon. But I am going to
allow this. I understand the government's position is that
they oppose vigorously.
MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, just two things. One is with
respect to instead of asking him a sort of imperative question,
"Did you confirm," can I ask him "Did you do anything to
confirm?" because I don't know the answer?
THE COURT: Fine.
10
MR. DRATEL: Can I say, "Did you send all of this
11
material to a college professor for analysis?" Just that
12
question.
13
14
MR. TURNER: We argue that it is irrelevant to

anything.
15
THE COURT: Well, it is not irrelevant.
16
Yes.
17
MR. DRATEL: Thank you.
18
THE COURT: All right. The last thing we'll take up
19
at another time is how to deal with the strikes. I don't want
20
to take it up now.
21
Do we have a full jury, Joe?
22
THE CLERK: We do.
23
THE COURT: We are going to proceed. All right?
24
MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, the government has provided
25
me a proposed instruction which I have some problems with, so

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1
Trial
we'll try to work on that.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Let's bring out the jury. Get Mr. Der-Yeghiayan on
4
5
6
7
the stand.
MR. TURNER: Are we going to redirect, your Honor, or
back to cross?
THE COURT: We are going to go to redirect and then go
back to cross. But I will allow Mr. Dratel, if necessary, to
go beyond the scope of the redirect to correct my rulings from
10
yesterday.
11
MR. DRATEL: Thank you, your Honor.
12
(Pause)
13
MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, while we are waiting, could
14
15
we just do a quick sidebar?

THE COURT: They will be horrified if the jury walks
16
out and see us at the sidebar. It will be like, you know,
17
Groundhog Day.
18
THE CLERK: All rise as the jury enters.
19
(Continued on next page)
20
21
22
23
24
25
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Trial
(Jury present)
THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, as we
get to our seats, let's all be seated.
And we are still on the redirect of Mr. Der-Yeghiayan.
And you remain under oath, sir. Do you understand
6
7
that?
THE WITNESS: I do. Thank you.
8
9
10
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN,
Resumed, and testified further as follows:
11
THE COURT: Thank you.
12
You may proceed, Mr. Turner.
13
MR. TURNER: Thank you, your Honor.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
REDIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)

MR. TURNER: Could we put Government Exhibit 149 on
the screen, please?
Your Honor, I believe the defense is now going to
stipulate to the admission of this document.
MR. DRATEL: Yes, but just as it appeared on
archive.org at that time.
21
THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 149 is received.
22
(Government's Exhibit 149 received in evidence)
23
MR. TURNER: Mr. Evert, could you zoom into the top
24
Paragraph there.
25
BY MR. TURNER:
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Der-Yeghiayan - redirect
Q. OK. So it says, "This is not the Silk Road, but you are
close. The Silk Road is an anonymous online market. Current
offerings include marijuana, harsh, shrooms, LSD, ecstasy, DMT,
mescalin and more. The site uses the Tor anonymity network,
which anonymizes all traffic to and from the site, so no one
can find out who you are or who runs Silk Road. For money, we
use bitcoin, an anonymous currency."
8
9
Yesterday you testified that this website was hosted

at a Web hosting company controlled by Mr. Karpeles, right?
10
A. Yes, it was.
11
Q. And the name, again, of the company was what?
12
A. It is KalyHost.
13
Q. Did it go by another name as well?
14
A. There is AutoVPS.
15
Q. And you testified yesterday you searched emails associated
16
with Mr. Karpeles' Web hosting company, is that right?
17
A. Yes, I did.
18
Q. Did you find any emails from the email address
19
staff@silkroadmarket.org in there?
20
A. Yes, I did.
21
MR. TURNER: May I approach, your Honor?
22
THE COURT: You may.
23
Q. Do you recognize this exhibit? I'm showing you what's been
24
marked as Government Exhibit 151.
25
A. I do.
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Q. How do you recognize it?
A. It's one of the emails that I observed in Mark Karpeles'
email account.
4
5
MR. TURNER: Your Honor, the government offers

Government Exhibit 151 into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: Objection.
THE COURT: Give me one more word.
MR. DRATEL: Oh, hearsay. Foundation.
MR. TURNER: It is not being offered --
10
11
THE COURT: Overruled. Government Exhibit 151 is

received.
12
13
MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, also authenticity. There are

no headers. There is nothing. This could have been --
14
THE COURT: Why don't you do a little more to lay a
15
foundation as to this, and then subject to that foundation it
16
is received.
17
BY MR. TURNER:
18
Q. Where did you receive the documents from?
19
A. The email came from Gmail from Google.
20
Q. OK.
21
THE COURT: Was that part of the subpoena response.
22
THE WITNESS: It was the search warrant results that
23
were returned by Google.
24
25
THE COURT: Thank you. You may proceed. It is

received.
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MR. TURNER: Could you put it up on the screen,
Mr. Evert. Could you zoom in on the top.
Q. It is from "staff@silkroadmarket.org." The date is
March 18, 2011. It's to "support@autovps.net." The question
is: "How do I upgrade my memory for my VPS with AutoVPS?"
Do you know what the terms "VPS" refers to?
A. It is virtual private server.
Q. Do you know what that term means?
10
11
THE COURT: Sustained.
12
Q. Have you ever rented server space before?
13
A. I have.
14
Q. From that experience, are you familiar with the term
15
"virtual private server"?
16
A. I am.
17
Q. So based on that --
18
19

Q. -- can you explain what virtual private server space is?
20
THE COURT: No. This question is fine.
21
You may answer.
22
A. Essentially, it's space that's allocated or taken from a
23
server that's assigned to you. So it acts as if it is a server
24
of its own. So it is just taking space and giving it to you
25
and allowing you to use it like a regular server would.

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Q. And this email address, to support@autovps.net, in
reviewing the emails that you saw in that search warrant
return, did you see other emails that were addressed to
support@autovps.net?
A. I did.
Q. What are those emails generally about?
MR. TURNER: Not for the truth, your Honor.
10
THE COURT: You could give some topics. You may
11
answer.
12
A. Basically -- I mean, for the most part,
13
customer-support-related inquiries related to the hosting
14
service.
15
MR. DRATEL: Just objection, your Honor, with respect
16
to any inference that it is from silkroadmarket.org. He is
17
talking about entirety, right?
18
THE COURT: Let's talk about that at the break but I
19
have allowed the answer.
20
BY MR. TURNER:
21
Q. Just to be clear, are you talking about customer support
22
inquiries from multiple other customers or just
23
staff@silkroadmarket.org?
24
A. There were multiple customers.
25
Q. OK. So support@autovps.net was used to receive customer

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1
support inquiries?
2
3

Q. Is that basically your testimony?
THE COURT: Overruled.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did -- and just to be clear, when you were talking
about the search warrant for emails, it is a search warrant for
emails associated with Mark Karpeles' Web hosting company, is
10
that right?
11
A. There were multiple, yeah, email accounts, I mean, we
12
looked into for Mark Karpeles.
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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F1LGULB2
BY MR. TURNER:
Q. Now, did Mark Karpeles' web hosting company KalyHost
AutoVPS help their customers register their websites?
THE COURT: Based upon your review, was there
information which indicated that to you? You may answer.
A. Based upon my review and then also had registered before, I
participated in registering -- also from my review, I've seen
it and from registering the site through KalyHost.
10
Q. So you yourself tested it out by registering a site on
11
KalyHost?
12
A. Yes, I participated in that.
13
Q. Can you explain briefly what it means to register a
14
website?
15
A. It means to provide information to basically claim
16
ownership over a website name and to provide your personal
17
details to take ownership of it.
18
Q. So when you registered a website on KalyHost, did KalyHost
19
ask you for any information like that?
20
A. They did.
21
Q. What sort of information?
22
A. There was information such as like a point of contact, so
23
it asked for your name, email address, address, telephone
24
number, as well as technical point-of-contacts and
25
administrative point-of-contacts.
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F1LGULB2
Q. Were you required to verify that information in any way?
A. No.
Q. Is there any way the public can view register information
associated with website addresses?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. And how can they do so?
A. It's called a who.is database, so it's a public database
that records that information when you do register a website.
It keeps track of basically what information you provide when
10
you do register it so you can search that publicly.
11
Q. Is that information available in the who.is web page that
12
we looked at earlier?
13
A. That available there; yes.
14
Q. Can you put GX 150 back on the screen, please. Can you
15
zoom in here.
16
Going back to this web page, who does it reflect
17
registered the silkroadmarket.org website?
18
A. The information provided shows that it was registered to
19
Richard Page at 11640 Gary Street, Garden Grove, California,
20
92840, and it's a telephone number, and then as well is an
21
email address which is richardpage@gawab.com.
22
Q. Did you look into whether this address -- and, Mr. Evert,
23
can you zoom in here so it's very clear.
24
25
Did you look into whether this address, 11640 Gary

Street, Garden Grove, California, was a real address?
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F1LGULB2
A. I did.
Q. And whether the phone number was a real phone number?
A. I did.
Q. How did you do that?
A. The address I looked up in our -- the Clear database that
we have access to, as well as the telephone number I checked as
well.
Q. What is the Clear database a compilation of?
A. It's a compilation of credit data that's provided, as well
10
as, like, utility bills and public information generally about
11
people, so it stores that information.
12
Q. And is Clear generally accepted and relied upon by law
13
enforcement to check address and phone number information?
14
A. Yes, it is.
15
MR. DRATEL: I'm going to object, your Honor.
16
MR. TURNER: 803.17 provides the basis.
17
MR. DRATEL: This is a database full of hearsay.
18
THE COURT: I'm going to allow it.
19
Q. So, what did you find?
20
A. The address wasn't registered to anybody, so it reflects to
21
me that it wasn't -- there wasn't anyone ever registered to
22
that address. There wasn't utility bills, anything ever
23
associated to that address.
24
Q. Did you find the real address with that number?
25
A. No, I did not.

(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB2
Q. What about the phone number?
A. The telephone number wasn't registered to anyone of that
name.
Q. Have you seen this information for Richard Page anywhere
else?
A. I have.
Q. Where?
A. When I searched Ross Ulbricht's computer after the arrest.
Q. Where did you find it on Ross Ulbricht's computer?
10
A. There was a file by the name of "aliases" on his computer
11
and there was a text document titled "info" that had the same
12
information on there, so the same name, as well as the -- what
13
appeared to be to me names, passwords and usernames for AutoVPS
14
and for KalyHost and for I believe gawab as well.
15
Q. It included the exact same address?
16
A. It did.
17
Q. And the exact same phone number?
18
A. It did.
19
MR. TURNER: No further questions.
20
21
Mr. Dratel.
22
MR. DRATEL: Thank you, your Honor. Can we come up
23
24
for a second one clarification. It takes a minute.

THE COURT: Okay. (Continued on next page)
25
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812
F1LGULB2
(At the side bar)
MR. DRATEL: I'm just trying to be careful, because
mises.org has not come up, I want to ask him what that is and
why he was looking at it. That's all. It's part of the
investigation, what was the relevance to the investigation? So
just two very quick questions on mises.org.
THE COURT: Okay.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1
(In open court; jury present)
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. DRATEL:
Q. Good morning, Special Agent Der-Yeghiayan.
A. Good morning.
Q. Was there a time -- I want to draw your attention back to
Anand Athavale we spoke about him yesterday, A-T-H-A-V-A-L-E,
correct?
A. Correct.
10
Q. He was a Canadian citizen who at one time you were looking
11
at, right?
12
A. He was one I investigated, yes.
13
Q. And during the course of your investigation, did you come
14
across a site called mises.org, m-i-s-e-s.org?
15
A. Yes, I did.
16
Q. And what is that?
17
A. It's a website that's set up for libertarian beliefs, as
18
well as there's an online forum associated with it, too.
19
Q. And as part of your investigation, did you -- what was the
20
relevance to your investigation of mises.org?
21
A. There was -- I observed on the bottom of Dread Pirate
22
Roberts' profile that he would link articles from that website
23
for things for people to read. So there would be, on his
24
signature line on his forum profile, he would link mises pages.
25
Q. And did you look at posts from the mises.org forum?

(212) 805-0300
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Der-Yeghiayan - recross
A. I did.
Q. And did you look at posts under the name Anand Athavale?
A. It wasn't under his name.
Q. What was it under?
A. It was under Liberty Student.
Q. And how did you connect that to -- did you do anything to
connect that to Mr. Athavale?
A. I did.
Q. And what was that that you did?
10
A. I looked through his posts that were publicly available. I
11
was looking for anything that would be personal indicators to
12
help me identify who --
13
MR. TURNER: Objection.
14
THE COURT: I'll allow this.
15
MR. TURNER: It calls for the agent's conclusion.
16
A. -- who the person was that was potentially behind that
17
identity on that forum.
18
Q. And at some point, did you compare those posts for
19
libertystudent.org and -- I guess, what facts led you to
20
associate libertystudent.org with Mr. Athavale?
21
22
THE COURT: Sustained. We'll go on to the next piece.
23
Q. So did you compare those posts from libertystudent.org to
24
anything?
25
A. I compared the posts by Liberty Student on mises to forum

(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB2
posts from Silk Road from Dread Pirate Roberts.
Q. Anything else from Dread Pirate Roberts?
A. As well as undercover chats, as well that I had access
to -- and I believe -- there might have been other -- whatever
else I had access to, if it was from the marketplace or from
anywhere else that was cited from Dread Pirate Roberts at the
time.
Q. And did you compare the two posts, the words in the two
posts, I mean in the two sets of posts, libertystudent.org
10
versus Dread Pirate Roberts?
11
A. I did.
12
Q. And did you find similarities?
13
14
THE COURT: Did you find sometimes the same word in
15
one as well as the other?
16
THE WITNESS: There were commonalities; yes.
17
THE COURT: Why don't you go through some of the
18
factual commonalities, if there are any.
19
20
Q. And do they both spell "labor," L-A-B-O-R as "labour,"
21
L-A-B-O-U-R occasionally, right?
22
A. That was one of them, yes.
23
Q. Both use and spell the word "real-time" with a hyphen
24
between real and time, right?
25
A. That's correct.
(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB2
Q. Both use the word "lemme," L-E-M-M-E as opposed to "let
me," right?
A. There were occasions, yes.
Q. Both end sentences with comma, right, question mark?
A. Yes.
Q. Both spell "route" R-O-U-T-E as "rout," R-O-U-T?
A. Yes.
Q. Both use the term "intellectual laziness"?
A. Yes.
10
Q. Both use the term and actively discussed the concept of
11
"agorism" and the "agorist"?
12
A. Yes.
13
Q. And do you know what that is?
14
A. No, no, I don't.
15
Q. Both use and spell the word "counter-economics" with a
16
hyphen between counter and economics, right?
17
A. That's correct.
18
Q. Both used the term "the ladder" in quotes before the "and"
19
after "ladder," right?
20
A. They did.
21
Q. Both quite often capitalize smaller words when they want to
22
emphasize, right?
23
A. Yeah, like a -- capitalize an entire word, yes.
24
Q. Neither uses hyphens to space out sentences or thoughts,
25
right?
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F1LGULB2
A. Yes.
Q. Both start sentences with "and" and "but" quite often,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Both will commonly not capitalize the first word in a
sentence when replying short and quick?
A. Yes.
Q. Both used the term "the heart of the matter"?
A. That sounds correct, yes.
10
Q. Both quite often will use a backslash, the symbol for
11
backslash on the computer to split words with similar meaning
12
and the second word never having the space after the slash,
13
right?
14
A. That's correct.
15
Q. Both used the term "altruistic," right?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. Both used the term "pal," right?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. Both used the term "war mongering"?
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. Both used the term "phoney," P-H-O-N-E-Y, right?
22
A. Correct.
23
Q. Both discuss and mention authors Murray Rothbard, right?
24
A. Correct.
25
Q. And Samuel Konkin?

(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB2
A. Konkin?
Q. K-O-N-K-I-N?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who they are?
A. They were inspirations for Dread Pirate Roberts according
to his posts.
Q. Are they libertarians?
A. As far as I'm aware. I'm not too familiar with them, but
yes.
10
Q. Both commonly end sentences with a smiley face or the wink
11
smiley face emoticons?
12
A. On their forum posts; yes.
13
Q. Both sometimes end sentences with the word "amigo"?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. Both use the term "a narco-capitalist" with a hyphen in the
16
middle?
17
A. Yes.
18
Q. Both misspell the word "alot," meaning that they spell
19
it -- that they're both spelled, in the comparisons that you
20
did, as one word as opposed to two words, "alot" A-L-O-T as one
21
word?
22
A. That's correct.
23
Q. Both have discussed the paleo human, P-A-L-E-O?
24
A. Yes.
25
Q. And they're both use the same expletive, right? There's an

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F1LGULB2
expletive?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. And you wrote a report about that, correct?
THE COURT: I will allow this question.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you also sent these sets of posts to an English
professor at a university to examine and analyze, right?
A. Yes, I did.
10
Q. Now, during your redirect yesterday afternoon, you
11
mentioned that DPR was security conscious, right?
12
A. He was, yes.
13
Q. Did he ever mention he was keeping a journal?
14
A. Not in my posts or private messages or chats, no.
15
Q. Did he ever tell you that he was saving chats on his
16
computer?
17
A. Not that I recall, no.
18
Q. Did he ever tell you that he was using public Wi-Fi?
19
A. No.
20
Q. Now, by the way, when he was out in public the day of the
21
arrest, when Mr. Ulbricht was out in public on the day of his
22
arrest, that was not at your prodding. He went out on his own
23
voluntarily into a public place, right?
24
A. He did.
25
Q. But it was you who asked him to log onto Silk Road,
(212) 805-0300
820
F1LGULB2
correct?
A. I asked Dread Pirate Roberts to log onto Silk Road, yes.
Q. So let's look at 129C, please, Government's 129C. Now,
when you talked about the chat yesterday, that's not part of
Silk Road, correct, the chat itself?
A. It's not on the marketplace or the forum.
Q. Right. It's a separate information called Pidgin, right?
A. It's -- I believe it's a Java server that was on Tor.
Q. Also called OTR, Off The Record, right?
10
A. It can be done in OTR, yeah.
11
Q. But it's a separate Tor chat program not part of any of the
12
Silk Road website or forums or anything like that, right?
13
A. It was separate from it; yes.
14
Q. So that's what he was logged on to when you realized he was
15
online, correct?
16
A. When I was -- when he came online, this is what indicated
17
to me that he was online, was the chat.
18
Q. Pidgin, not Silk Road, right?
19
A. Correct.
20
Q. He wasn't on Silk Road until you asked him to get on Silk
21
Road, right?
22
A. That's correct.
23
Q. And you say "check out one of the flagged messages for me,"
24
and then it says "sure," right, "let me log in"?
25
A. Yes, it does.
(212) 805-0300
821
F1LGULB2
Q. So he's already online on Pidgin, which is the chat
program, but he's not on Silk Road at that point, right?
A. From -- yeah, from this, yes.
Q. And you were asked by Mr. Turner yesterday about who was on
the other side of the screen that day, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you satisfied yourself based on going into the library
looking at the screen that Mr. Ulbricht was on the other side
of the screen that day, right?
10
A. Yes.
11
Q. But you can't testify, can you, about who you know was on
12
the other side of the screen (in)any other communication you
13
had with Dread Pirate Roberts, can you?
14
A. No, I cannot.
15
Q. After all, everybody on Silk Road thought you were somebody
16
else for a couple of years, right?
17
A. For the --
18
19
THE COURT: Why don't you reframe it.
20
MR. DRATEL: Okay.
21
Q. You were on Silk Road from some time in early 2012 through
22
the end of September of 2013 under various account names,
23
correct?
24
A. I utilized multiple account names, yes.
25
Q. And no one knew your real identity, right?

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F1LGULB2
A. I only actively chatted, though, with -- primarily with the
cirrus account, though, but the rest of the ones were primarily
used for either buys or for screen shots.
Q. They didn't know your identity, your real identity, right?
A. Not on any one of them, no.
Q. They had no idea who was on the other end of that screen,
did they?
A. No. I never told them, no.
Q. Also with respect to "flagged messages," you identified the
10
post you were looking for, right?
11
A. At the end of the chat, I told him "the one with atlantis."
12
Q. Right. In terms of who is on the other end of the screen,
13
we went through that exchange before with respect to there was
14
a period of time in which you weren't sure whether DPR was
15
operating someone's account, whether it's SSBD, right, that's a
16
username, correct?
17
18
THE COURT: Hold on one second. Sustained.
19
Q. Now, you were asked about Government Exhibit 130 on
20
redirect, right, the handwritten notes, right?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q. And you asked whether they said anything about Silk Road or
23
illegal drugs, right?
24
A. I was asked that, yes.
25
Q. But you're aware that in July of 2013, just a couple of

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months before Mr. Ulbricht's arrest, that he was interviewed by
Homeland Security, right?
MR. TURNER: Objection; foundation.
Q. You're aware that he was interviewed, aren't you?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And you're aware that it had to do with a shipment from
Silk Road, right?
MR. TURNER: Objection; foundation, hearsay.
THE COURT: You need to go back over that and lay a
10
foundation for it.
11
Q. During your investigation, you became aware, right, that
12
Mr. Ulbricht -- withdrawn.
13
14
15
16
17
18
That Homeland Security interviewed Mr. Ulbricht

about -- and you've read -- withdrawn.
During the course of your investigation, you were kept
apprised of what was going on, correct?
MR. TURNER: Objection; hearsay, vagueness.
Q. For purposes -- you read reports --
19
THE COURT: Hold on. Ask the question.
20
Q. You read reports about an interview of Mr. Ulbricht by
21
Homeland Security, correct?
22
THE COURT: You can answer that yes or no.
23
A. Yes, I did.
24
Q. And the subject matter was about a package shipped by Silk
25
Road, a Silk Road vendor, correct?

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MR. TURNER: Objection to the hearsay.
THE COURT: Right. That's sustained.
Q. Now, you were asked also on redirect about travel records,
right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you said there were some aliases. You ran those
aliases for travel records, too, didn't you?
A. The aliases for travel records?
Q. In other words, any aliases for Mr. Ulbricht that you might
10
have found, you ran them for travel records, too, didn't you?
11
A. I can't recall if I did.
12
Q. Now, we talked about that he takes about a trip a year out
13
of the country. And you were asked about international travel,
14
whether you could determine whether he went from one country to
15
another country, right; you couldn't tell that from the travel
16
records that you looked at in terms of a sheet that you got
17
from border authorities, right --in other words, either leaving
18
the country or coming into the country is what you said, right?
19
A. The records that were reflected in the database that we
20
have access to just shows where they're coming from and where
21
they travel to.
22
Q. But you also had the passport, right?
23
A. I didn't have that until after the arrest.
24
Q. Right, but you had it now and you've had it for quite some
25
time, right?
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A. Yes.
Q. So the case passport is in evidence, right?
A. Yes.
Q. It's Exhibit 134, right?
Q. If we can go to the next page, please. Those are the only
stamps in there, right, there's one for Australia, one for the
Island of Dominica and one for Costa Rica, right?
A. Correct.
10
Q. So if he went from Costa Rica to Brazil, there would be a
11
stamp, wouldn't there, on his passport?
12
A. Not necessarily. There's -- I've worked as border
13
inspector for a lot of years, so I do know that sometimes there
14
aren't always the stamps for the countries they enter into. It
15
just depends.
16
Q. So you know whether he would have been stamped or not?
17
A. I couldn't tell you if another country would for sure stamp
18
it or not. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
19
Q. Those three stamped it, right?
20
A. They did stamp it.
21
Q. And it matched exactly what you had on the travel records,
22
right?
23
A. I'd have to go back and review it, but --
24
Q. The MediaWiki, right, we talked about that?
25
A. We did.
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Q. And the fact is, though, that the commonality between the
Karpeles website and silkroadmarket.org was about the version
of MediaWiki, right?
A. The version was the same, yes.
Q. But it was an outdated version, right? It wasn't the
current version at the time, right?
A. At the current time, it was an outdated version; yes.
Q. So of all the people who use MediaWiki, do you know how
many use an outdated version?
10
A. I don't know how many use an outdated version.
11
Q. It's free, right? You can upgrade it for free, right?
12
A. You can, yes.
13
Q. Now, with respect to -- I'm showing you what's marked --
14
and I'll go back to travel for a second and show you what's
15
marked as 3505-3051 and just ask you to review it. Let me know
16
when you're finished.
17
A. Thank you. Okay.
18
Q. Does that refresh your recollection that the travel records
19
that you reviewed from your database matched exactly the stamps
20
on the passport?
21
A. The stamps match, yes.
22
Q. Now, with respect to the AutoVPS, the Karpeles company,
23
right, is another one of Mark Karpeles' company, right?
24
A. Yes.
25
Q. By the way, silkroadmarket.org moved from one Karpeles

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company to another Karpeles company, right, at one point, from
KalyHost to XTA?
A. It was, yeah, I believe registered through the one and then
I think the domain name server changed over to XTA, yes.
Q. And those subpoenas -- I mean, the warrants that you got to
look at those emails was part of your investigation of
Mr. Karpeles, correct?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. But, in fact, you did not get those emails, they were not
10
produced until months after Mr. Ulbricht was arrested, right?
11
A. It took a while for the return to come back, yes.
12
Q. If we can look at Government's 149, please, if we could go
13
to the bottom, the very bottom, please, to the URL.
14
In fact, that's from archive.org in March of 2011,
15
right?
16
A. I believe March 4.
17
Q. That's what that 20110304 is right after web slash, right?
18
A. Yes, it's the date.
19
Q. So that's the date that appeared -- going back,
20
archive.org, again just to refresh, just captures pages of the
21
Internet, right?
22
A. It does.
23
Q. And then it puts them in an archive, right?
24
A. It maintains it, yes.
25
Q. And what they do at the bottom in that webarchive.org URL,

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the Internet address, is that it tells you what date it
captured it, right?
A. Correct.
Q. So it captured this particular screen March 4, 2011, right?
A. March 4, 2011, yes.
Q. By the way, if we go back up to the message, it's from Silk
Road staff, correct?
A. It was signed, yes, Silk Road staff.
Q. Not Dread Pirate Roberts or anything like that, right?
10
There's no Dread Pirate Roberts there?
11
A. That didn't come until I believe January 2012.
12
Q. Correct. At one point you showed us I think it's
13
Government Exhibit 123, the Dread Pirate Roberts profile on
14
Silk Road, the profile page and the registration?
15
A. Yeah.
16
Q. Do you recall?
17
A. I recall, yes.
18
Q. You don't know when that may have been changed to the name
19
Dread Pirate Roberts from another username, right?
20
A. That one was the Silk Road account that changed to Dread
21
Pirate Roberts after he announced his new name on that post.
22
Q. Now, let's look at Government Exhibit 150 which we just saw
23
this morning. Can we look on the left side. There's a date of
24
registration -- no, further down, right there.
25
A. Correct.
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Q. It's registered on February 28, 2011, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then it expires -- it expired February 28, 2012. It
says "expires on," right?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. Now, if we look to the right side, that's the one by
Richard Page, right?
A. The one on the left is by Richard Page, yeah.
Q. The one on the right, the registration date is May 18,
10
2012, right?
11
A. Correct.
12
Q. That's roughly two and-a-half months after the expiration
13
of the one on the left, correct?
14
A. Correct.
15
Q. So let's see who it's registered to as of May 18, 2012. Go
16
down further. There it is. So it's registered to Qin Shu
17
Tong, correct?
18
A. Correct.
19
Q. In China, right?
20
A. In China.
21
Q. And you checked that out, right?
22
A. I looked into that, yes.
23
Q. No apparent connection to anything, right?
24
A. No.
25
Q. So this particular registration with respect to anything

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connected to Richard Page was over by April of 2012, right?
A. It wasn't renewed and then it was bought by someone else.
Q. Right. Now, you talked about the emails you got from Mark
Karpeles' companies, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Those are the only accounts at Google, right?
A. There was -- for him, I believe there was a few. He had a
personal one and then he had one that was to Evoni (ph) which
is a company.
10
Q. But from Google?
11
A. It all is through Google, yes.
12
Q. You don't know about email accounts that he may have had on
13
proprietary servers of his own, right?
14
A. I do not know of any.
15
Q. So you didn't get to look at those if they exist, right?
16
A. I didn't.
17
Q. Did you ever get to look at any of his Tor chats?
18
A. I did not find any Tor chats from him.
19
Q. Any Java or Off The Record or Pidgin chats of his?
20
A. I did not.
21
Q. Did you get anything from any other servers with respect to
22
Mark Karpeles other than Google?
23
A. Nothing about -- I mean, we did a broader search on another
24
individual from his company, but no.
25
Q. Do you know whether he keeps a journal?

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A. No.
Q. Going back to Dread Pirate Roberts for a second, that is
announced in the early part of 2012, right, February 2012?
A. Yes. I believe so.
Q. Now, Mr. Karpeles owns web hosting companies, right?
A. He does.
Q. A number of them?
A. He is -- yeah, well, KalyHost and then he has the AutoVPS,
which is a virtual server hosting.
10
Q. And XTA, right?
11
A. XTA, I believe that was the name server. I don't know if
12
that was -- you might be able to register sites on that, too.
13
Q. But a web host can monitor the traffic of their customers,
14
right?
15
16
Q. In fact, they can also set rules for their customers,
17
right?
18
A. They can.
19
Q. They also know identifying information about the people who
20
rent space on their server, right?
21
A. They should have, yeah, like registration information or
22
things that are provided to them, yes.
23
Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.
24
A. That's okay. It's just basic information, whatever is
25
provided, as well as, like, account billing information they

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should have.
Q. And also IP addresses and things like that. In the way
that the server connects to the outside world, the web host
knows all of that because it comes through their equipment,
right, correct?
A. They should be able to tell that, yes.
Q. Kind of like a landlord, right?
A. That's a way to describe it, yes.
Q. The same thing is true of anyone who runs a bitcoin
10
exchange, right, in terms of knowing about their account
11
holders?
12
A. It changed over time. I think originally a lot of them
13
didn't require very much information to register an account,
14
but a lot of them changed where they started requiring sort of
15
know your customer information. Some actually requires Social
16
Security numbers.
17
Q. But also they can monitor account activity and account
18
movement, they're in a perfect position to do that because it
19
all has to come in and out of their exchange, right?
20
MR. TURNER: Object; foundation.
21
22
Q. As part of your investigation, you looked at MtGox records,
23
right?
24
A. I did.
25
Q. And you looked at how exchanges operate, correct?

(212) 805-0300
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A. I did.
Q. And exchanges have all of the information with respect to
transactions that their account holders do in the context of
bitcoins? Everything that goes through that exchange is
information that's -- that the bitcoin exchange has?
A. It should be visible to them; yes.
Q. So any of the tracing that you could do on the block chain,
the bitcoin exchange can certainly do with respect to each
account holder?
10
A. They should.
11
Q. Now, we had a car rental analogy yesterday about bitcoin
12
and about servers and rentals. Using bitcoin and even in the
13
context of web hosting, so you may have a fleet of cars that
14
you own but people are driving them but you can put a GPS in
15
there, right, and know exactly what everyone is doing in every
16
one of your cars, right?
17
A. You could.
18
Q. Now, the bitcoin issue: Total commissions collected by
19
Silk Road totaled -- as computed by the government, 614,305
20
bitcoins was the total commissions collected by Silk Road
21
during the course of its operations, correct?
22
MR. TURNER: Objection; foundation for this witness.
23
THE COURT: Lay a foundation for this witness.
24
Q. You looked at Silk Road, right, as a business, correct, you
25
examined it in terms of revenue and things like that, right?

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MR. TURNER: Objection; form, vagueness.
THE COURT: I'll let you answer it if you understand
the question.
A. I mean, I reviewed the site. I reviewed the transactions
on it, the vendors, what was publicly available to me.
Q. All right. And you are also familiar with the complaint in
this action, right?
A. The complaint for Mr. Ulbricht?
Q. Against Mr. Ulbricht?
10
A. Yes.
11
Q. The complaint -- so you know that the amount of bitcoins
12
the government computed for the commissions for Silk Road were
13
614,305 bitcoins?
14
A. I'd have to see the complaint, but yes, it sounds right.
15
Q. I'll show you what we'll mark as Defendant's I for
16
identification and just ask you to read that paragraph, please.
17
THE COURT: So he said this is consistent with what he
18
thinks. This is just to refresh his recollection?
19
MR. DRATEL: Correct.
20
A. Okay.
21
Q. Does that refresh your recollection that the government
22
computed the amount of bitcoins of commission -- I'm sorry --
23
that the amount of commissions Silk Road earned during the
24
course of its existence up until the point of Mr. Ulbricht's
25
arrest was 614,305 bitcoins?

(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB2
1
2
3
4
5
MR. TURNER: Your Honor, object. Again, a foundation
and also beyond the scope of redirect.

THE COURT: I'll allow this one because we're into it
just to finish it off.
You may answer.
A. It does reflect that, yes.
Q. And that would be -- and at the time of Mr. Ulbricht's
arrest, the government put the total revenue of Silk Road at
$1.2 billion, right, in current -- in the value of bitcoin at
10
11
12
the time of his arrest, right?

MR. TURNER: Objection; foundation, relevance and
beyond the scope of redirect.
13
THE COURT: All three of those are true.
14
Why don't you try it a different way --
15
Q. The government --
16
THE COURT: -- with this witness.
17
MR. DRATEL: Sure.
18
Q. The government was looking to estimate or get a handle on
19
the revenue that Silk Road had earned during the period of time
20
from the beginning of its existence through Mr. Ulbricht's
21
arrest, correct?
22
23
24
25
THE COURT: Let me ask it this way: I want to see

whether or not this is the right witness for this.
Were you involved in the efforts by the government to
calculate the total number of transactions on Silk Road?
(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB2
THE WITNESS: No, I was not.
THE COURT: Were you involved in any efforts by the
government to calculate not only the number of transactions,
but any corresponding value in terms of bitcoins or U.S.
Dollars at any particular point in time?
THE WITNESS: No, I was not.
THE COURT: I think you'll need another witness for
these questions.
MR. DRATEL: I have nothing further.
10
11
Mr. Turner, are we okay or do we need a break? Let me
12
take a look at the jury. We're all right. Let's continue.
13
Thank you. This will be the end of this witness. I think
14
we're almost done. We'll see how this goes. There's always a
15
bit of back and forth, but I think we're close.
16
MR. TURNER: Mr. Evert, if you can put GX 134 back on
17
the screen. The passport, can you zoom in on the bottom dates
18
there.
19
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
20
BY MR. TURNER:
21
Q. The date of issue on the passport is what, Agent
22
Der-Yeghiayan?
23
A. The date that the government issued that document.
24
Q. Right. But what does it appear here?
25
A. April 26, 2012.

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Q. Any trips that the defendant took before this date, there
are not going to be stamps on the passport, right?
A. Not on this passport, no.
Q. KalyHost. In terms of monitoring or collecting information
about its customers, when you registered a website on KalyHost,
you didn't have to verify your information, correct?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And in terms of their ability to see what IP addresses
you're logging in from, if you're coming in through Tor, can
10
they see your true IP address?
11
A. They would see the Tor exit node.
12
Q. Can they see your true IP address?
13
A. No.
14
Q. Mises.org, you said is a libertarian website, right?
15
A. Yes, it is.
16
Q. And it's a particular brand of libertarianism, is that
17
right?
18
19
20
THE COURT: There's very little you can do on this.
21
I'll allow one more question on it.
22
Q. You looked at posts on mises.org, right?
23
A. I did.
24
Q. Were there terms that were commonly discussed on the
25
website?
(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB2
A. There were commonalities, I mean, the way the people spoke
on there.
Q. Did they speak about agorism?
A. They did.
Q. And you mentioned some names. Samuel Konkin and Murray
Rothbard, did those names come up?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Not just on the liberty whatever it is you were looking at,
but across the site, is that right?
10
A. It was not just on Liberty Student's account. It was
11
across the site.
12
Q. Users of that site generally were interested in those
13
concepts and authors?
14
A. There was discussions about those authors, yes.
15
Q. Did you find any profile in liberty reserve -- excuse
16
me -- any profile on mises.org in the defendant's name?
17
A. I did.
18
Q. With the defendant's picture on it?
19
A. I did.
20
Q. Did you find a profile of the defendant on YouTube?
21
A. I did.
22
Q. With the defendant's name on it?
23
A. I did.
24
Q. And the defendant's picture on it?
25
A. Yes.
(212) 805-0300
839
F1LGULB2
Q. Did you see the subscriptions on the YouTube page?
A. I did.
Q. Did they include any subscriptions to mises.org?
A. Yes, there were.
MR. TURNER: No further questions.
MR. DRATEL: A couple, your Honor just based on that,
8
9
10
based on that.
THE COURT: My goodness. Okay. Just two or three.
MR. DRATEL: Yes.
11
RECROSS EXAMINATION
12
BY MR. DRATEL:
13
Q. With respect to travel, your records go back before
14
April 2012 with that passport, right, your database goes back
15
much further than that, right?
16
A. Not on that particular passport --
17
Q. Not the passport. For Mr. Ulbricht, when you looked at the
18
database for travel in and out of the United States, it's not
19
limited to the time of that passport?
20
A. No, it's not.
21
Q. It goes well before that, correct?
22
A. The travel history is not based on the passport.
23
Q. And with respect to --
24
THE COURT: That was two.
25
MR. DRATEL: I'm sorry?

(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB2
1
THE COURT: I was counting. That was two. You get
two more.
Q. Mr. Ulbricht had his accounts on mises.org and YouTube in
his own name, right?
A. He did.
Q. Mr. Athavale, you associated him with an alias, correct?
Q. And you said the commonalities that you found with respect
10
to the mises.org posts of Liberty Student and DPR you sent to a
11
college professor for analysis, right?
12
13
MR. TURNER: Objection; asked and answered and

relevance.
14
THE COURT: It's been asked and answered.
15
You can answer it again.
16
A. It was analyzed; yes.
17
THE COURT: We're all set.
18
You're all done, Mr. Dratel?
19
MR. DRATEL: Yes. Thank you.
20
THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down, sir.
21
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22
(Witness excused)
23
THE COURT: We're going to go on to your next witness,
24
ladies and gentlemen. And maybe this is a good time, just
25
because we're at the next witness, to take a quick break.

(212) 805-0300
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Let's not take a long break. Come back in. Just to stretch
our legs. We'll get the next witness already on the stand just
to save some time and we'll start right up. So it's just a
five-minute, seven-minute break as quickly as we can get out
and get back in.
(Jury excused)
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB2
(In open court)
THE COURT: This was to take a quick break before we
get the next witness out. If we can get him or her on the
stand. Is it still Mr. Kiernan?
MR. TURNER: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Is there anything you folks
want to raise? I want to take a quick break.
MR. TURNER: An issue to flag: We want a jury
instruction about this Anand Athavale thing, that the testimony
10
about the mises.org cannot come in in order to prove that Anand
11
Athavale was an alternative perpetrator. No link was made in
12
any authentic way.
13
THE COURT: Why don't you do this: If you are asking
14
for an instruction, draft up something, share it with
15
Mr. Dratel. If you can't come to any agreement, you'll present
16
that to me without agreement. And if you can, then I would
17
consider what you folks prepare, but the request is noted.
18
MR. TURNER: Thank you.
19
MR. DRATEL: Just one other thing, 151 we never
20
received until this morning. We keep getting exhibits on the
21
fly, and I just wish that we could have a stationary target to
22
prepare from. That's all I'm asking.
23
24
25
THE COURT: It was, I think, in the nature of

rebuttal.
MR. DRATEL: We got it when he testified.
(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB2
THE COURT: Sometimes they're hard to get in advance.
MR. DRATEL: I literally got it handed to me during
the examination.
MR. TURNER: As I received it.
THE COURT: Do the best you can. I expect you'll do
the best you can. Let's take a quick break.
(Recess)
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB2
THE COURT: Mr. Kiernan, I'm going to ask you to
remain standing and I'll have my deputy swear you in.
(Witness sworn)
THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Kiernan. Please be seated,
sir.
THE COURT: There's water there and I see you have a
9
10
11
12
13
bottle of water also on the side.

It will be important for you to pull yourself up to
the mic. and speak clearly and directly into the mic.
Mr. Howard.
THOMAS KIERNAN,
14
called as a witness by the Government,
15
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
16
DIRECT EXAMINATION
17
BY MR. HOWARD:
18
Q. Good morning.
19
A. Good morning.
20
Q. Who do you work for?
21
A. The FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigations.
22
Q. And how long have you worked with the FBI?
23
A. Twenty-three years.
24
Q. And what is your position at the FBI?
25
A. I'm currently a computer scientist with the FBI.

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Q. What are your duties and responsibilities as a computer
scientist?
A. Sure. I collect, review and analyze digital evidence.
Q. Are you familiar with what a forensic image is?
A. I am.
Q. And what is a forensic image?
A. It's a image of a hard drive or a digital media that makes
an exact duplicate of the original drive that you are looking
at, so you're making a copy of someone else's drive basically.
10
Q. In your role as a computer scientist at the FBI, do you
11
have experience in reviewing the forensic images of computers?
12
A. Yes.
13
Q. In the course of your career, how many forensic images of
14
computers would you say you have examined in total
15
approximately?
16
A. Hundreds of computers that we have gone through.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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Q. Do you have any specialized training with computers?
A. Yes. I'm a FBI -- I am a CART technician, which is a
Computer Analyst Response Team, which I have training in also.
Q. And what is your educational background?
A. I have a computer science degree from St. John's
University.
Q. I am going to draw your attention to October 1, 2013.
A. Sure.
Q. Were you involved in an arrest that day?
10
A. I was.
11
Q. And whose arrest was that?
12
A. The defendant, Ross Ulbricht.
13
Q. Do you see that person in the courtroom today?
14
A. I do. He is at the second table wearing the pink-collared
15
shirt.
16
17
18
MR. HOWARD: May the record please reflect that the

witness has identified the defendant?
THE COURT: So reflected.
19
Q. Now, in what city did this arrest take place?
20
A. This was in San Francisco.
21
Q. And what part of day did this take place?
22
A. Afternoon, approximately 3:15.
23
Q. When did you first arrive in San Francisco for the arrest?
24
A. For the arrest, I was there two days prior to the arrest.
25
Q. And what were you involved in in the days leading up to the

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arrest?
A. I had helped out with some of the surveillance that was
going on during that time period.
Q. And what was the initial plan for the defendant's arrest?
A. The initial arrest was going to be on October 2nd, which is
at his residence, but it was on this -- it was geared to the
2nd of October.
Q. And did that plan, did it go as planned?
A. No, it did not.
10
Q. And why not?
11
A. We had the opportunity to arrest the defendant with his
12
laptop and his laptop on at the time.
13
Q. And what was the importance of arresting the defendant with
14
his laptop on?
15
A. So with the laptop on we can beat or get past any type of
16
encryption problems that would arise on a laptop. Usually --
17
encryption is when you have your laptop, or a hard drive, and
18
the data on top of it is in a format that is not humanly
19
readable that we can't get to. So to get there with the laptop
20
on and at a point where it is on, we were able to get the
21
machine and pull up live data from the machine.
22
Q. Now, were there other people involved in the arrest team?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q. Where was the arrest team deployed on October the 1st?
25
A. On the 1st we were situated all around the area at the

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time, all in a -- in plainclothes, just trying to blend in with
the surroundings.
Q. And what location were you in? Where were you?
A. I was -- myself, I was across the street from the library,
from a little cafe and back from the library spot, but right
across the street from the library.
Q. And why were you in that specific location?
A. We had witnessed the defendant in that area before, a
couple of days before that, when we were there doing
10
surveillance. So we knew he was in that area, or we were
11
hoping that he would come back to that area.
12
Q. Do you know where Mr. Ulbricht was living at the time?
13
A. Yes, I do.
14
Q. And how do you know that?
15
A. We had done surveillance in front of his residence.
16
Q. And approximately how close was his residence from the
17
place where you were stationed near the public library?
18
A. Maybe a five-minute walk from his spot down to the cafe and
19
the library.
20
Q. At some point did you learn that Mr. Ulbricht was
21
approaching the area?
22
A. We did.
23
MR. HOWARD: Now, Ms. Rosen, could you please publish
24
Government Exhibit 128C, which has already been admitted into
25
evidence.
(212) 805-0300
849
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Q. Do you recognize what this photograph depicts?
A. I do.
Q. And what does it depict?
A. That is the area where we were actually sitting before we
entered the library.
I could use my pointer, right?
Q. Go ahead, Mr. Kiernan.
A. Here we go. So this area here, this cafe area, we were
directly across the street, on this side of the street, from
10
there, just sitting on a bench, me and the UC at the time,
11
Jared -- I can never pronounce his last name but it was Jared.
12
The library was right over here, where we were waiting to enter
13
into.
14
Q. Now, sorry, you were sitting with Special Agent Jared
15
Der-Yeghiayan, correct?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. Were there other agents involved, too?
18
A. Not where we were sitting but in the area, yes, there were
19
other agents in that area.
20
Q. And they were also in plainclothes?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q. So at some point did you observe the defendant when you
23
were at this location?
24
A. I did. I did. I just saw him take a -- when he was
25
walking on this side of the street, he took a quick peek in

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that little doorway there, which seemed like a coffee cafe, and
then he just continued on past this area right into the library
right there.
Q. Now, after you witnessed the defendant enter the library,
did you see the undercover officer do anything?
A. He just opened up his laptop to start a session, I guess.
Q. And what was the plan for the undercover opening his
laptop?
A. To try to get into a conversation with DPR.
10
Q. What did you do next?
11
A. That's when I left my area and entered into the library,
12
just across the street.
13
Q. And once you entered the library, where did you go?
14
A. The library was two -- it was a couple, it was two
15
floors -- well, the library itself, the entranceway and then I
16
went up to the second floor, where the actual entrance to the
17
main library section was.
18
Q. Now, I'm going to ask you to flip in the binder that is
19
sitting in front of you to what's been marked for
20
identification purposes as Government Exhibit 128G.
21
A. Got you.
22
Q. Do you recognize this?
23
A. I do.
24
Q. What is this exhibit?
25
A. This is a photograph of that second floor entrance into the

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library.
Q. Did you take this photograph?
A. I did not take this.
4
5
THE COURT: May I pause for one second? I think that

my binders have taken a walk, and they will walk back.
(Pause)
OK. So what number are you on, Mr. Howard?
MR. HOWARD: 128G.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You may continue.
10
BY MR. HOWARD:
11
Q. Is it correct, you just testified that you did not
12
personally take this photograph, correct?
13
A. No, I did not take this photo.
14
Q. But does this photograph fairly and accurately depict the
15
area of the library that you just described?
16
A. Yes, it does.
17
18
MR. HOWARD: The government offers Government Exhibit

128G.
19
MR. DRATEL: I have no objection, your Honor.
20
THE COURT: Received.
21
(Government's Exhibit 128G received in evidence)
22
MR. HOWARD: Could you please publish it on the
23
screen.
24
Q. So you described it as the area of the library that you
25
first went to after you entered, correct?

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A. Yes.
Q. Was there anyone else with you while you were at this
location?
A. Not with me going in but inside there were some agents
already stationed.
Q. Could you depict where in the photograph this was?
A. Sure. Right back in here, just behind this pole, basically
in front of this little terminal there.
Q. Once you arrived at that location, did you meet with the
10
other agents?
11
A. We did, yes.
12
Q. And what happened during that meeting?
13
A. During that -- it was a pretty quick meeting, but we were
14
trying to come up with a way to have the defendant turn away
15
from his laptop. So he was sitting inside. So we were trying
16
get him -- a diversion. We were trying to create a diversion
17
so we could grab the laptop, take it, and start processing it,
18
start looking at it.
19
Q. This is to obtain the laptop in an unencrypted state,
20
correct?
21
A. Correct. Yes. Again, the goal was to get to the laptop in
22
its unencrypted state. We wanted to look at that laptop.
23
Q. Did you have a search warrant for the defendant's laptop at
24
the time?
25
A. We did.
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Q. Can you please flip to what's been marked for
identification purposes as 128H in your binder.
A. Yes. OK.
Q. Do you recognize this exhibit?
A. I do.
Q. And what is it?
A. A picture internal of the library approximately where the
defendant was sitting.
10
A. I did not.
11
Q. Does the photograph fairly and accurately depict the area
12
that you just testified about in the library?
13
A. It does.
14
15

128H.
16
MR. DRATEL: No objection.
17
18
(Government's Exhibit 128H received in evidence)
19
BY MR. HOWARD:
20
Q. Mr. Kiernan, you described this as the area that you first
21
observed the defendant in the library, correct?
22
A. It is, yes.
23
Q. Can you describe where in this photograph you observed the
24
defendant?
25
A. Sure. I was situated to the left over here. You see this
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pole standing there? I was in that area behind the case of
books or magazines in that area. About 20 feet away, something
like that.
Q. And where was the defendant specifically located?
A. He was approximately in this area here, almost in this same
spot as that gentleman in there, in that picture.
Q. What were you able to observe about the defendant before he
was arrested?
A. Just that he was using his -- his laptop was on and he was
10
using his machine, just sitting there.
11
Q. What did you see next?
12
A. I saw two agents come from this area here, walking this
13
way. I mean, towards the windows, right, would be better,
14
toward that "Science Fiction" sign there. And I witnessed
15
them. They tried to do our plan that they were talking about.
16
So they get into a verbal dispute. They start, the
17
male and the female agent, like a domestic dispute, and they
18
started yelling at each other right behind the defendant's
19
area.
20
Q. And so what happened after they started yelling behind the
21
defendant?
22
A. Sure. The defendant, like anyone would do, would look like
23
what's going on. And that's when the male agent reached,
24
grabbed the laptop, pulled it over to the side. The defendant
25
started to rise, as anyone would do. Then the female agent

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grabbed it from the male agent, and that's when I came from my
position and took the laptop from the female agent.
MR. HOWARD: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: You may.
Q. I just handed you what's premarked for identification
purposes as Government Exhibit 200. Do you recognize this
exhibit?
A. Can I open it?
Q. Go ahead.
10
(Pause)
11
A. Maybe I can't. It is not going back in the bag, that's for
12
sure.
13
All right. Let's see. Got it. OK. Yes.
14
15
A. I do.
16
Q. And what is this exhibit?
17
A. This was the laptop taken from the defendant.
18
Q. And how do you recognize it?
19
A. From the serial number and bar code and the paper with it.
20
21
200.
22
MR. DRATEL: No objection, your Honor.
23
24
25
BY MR. HOWARD:
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Kiernan - direct
Q. What brand of laptop is this?
A. This is a Samsung 700Z.
Q. And when you say "700Z," what are you referring to?
A. That is the model number of the laptop.
Q. Now, what did you do with Mr. Ulbricht's laptop after you
seized it?
A. After I grabbed it I went to the other side of the table,
where the arrest was made, and started a triage on the laptop.
Q. So what is a triage?
10
A. A triage is, again, looking for if encryption is running on
11
the machine. So I start looking for signs of that, and then I
12
start taking pictures of what I'm doing at the time. It is
13
just I'm going through the computer in as safe a way as
14
possible to start collecting evidence from the machine.
15
Q. And why was it necessary to do this triage?
16
A. Again, the encryption is tough, it is tough to defeat. So
17
the triage is, again, to make sure that I can start getting
18
valuable evidence from the machine in its live state, while the
19
machine is on.
20
Q. How can a laptop become locked or encrypted?
21
A. Sure. By the closing of the lid will usually enable
22
encryption. Screen savers, little programs that lock it out.
23
Things like that will enable encryption on the machine if it is
24
running.
25
Q. Does every laptop have encryption running on it?

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A. No, not every laptop.
Q. Did you extract any documents as part of the triage?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And how did you do this?
A. I had a USB drive with me, a brand new USB drive that I
plugged into the defendant's laptop and started what I could
take documents from his current home directory folder, which is
the directly that most of your documents remain in. That is
the stuff you use most. That is where you put your documents.
10
11
THE COURT: All right. Well, the portion of the
12
answer "stuff you use most" is struck but the remainder of the
13
answer stays.
14
You may continue, Mr. Howard.
15
BY MR. HOWARD:
16
Q. Mr. Kiernan, what kind of operating system was the computer
17
running?
18
A. Linux in a flavor called Ubuntu.
19
Q. What is an operating system?
20
A. It's the software that lets you interface with your
21
computer. It lets a human actually interface with your machine
22
so you can get to your files and your Web browsers and things
23
like that.
24
Q. What are other popular kinds of operating systems?
25
A. Sure. You probably know Windows or Macintosh OS's. Those

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are other types of operating systems that are out there,
popular ones.
Q. Do you have training in reviewing computers running the
Linux Ubuntu system?
A. I do.
Q. Is the home directory you testified about part of the Linux
Ubuntu system?
A. It is.
Q. And how many computers have you reviewed that have had the
10
Linux Ubuntu system on it?
11
A. Hundreds of computers.
12
THE COURT: How do you spell the Ubuntu?
13
MR. HOWARD: I believe that is you U-b --
14
THE WITNESS: U-b-u-n-t-u.
15
16
BY MR. HOWARD:
17
Q. And what is the significance of the home directory, that
18
you testified about, on a Linux Ubuntu system?
19
A. It's the directory where you keep most of your files.
20
That's the directory that holds your data. And it holds the
21
user accounts is in the home directory of the Linux system.
22
Q. What is a user account?
23
A. A user account is an account that is created by usually the
24
person setting up the laptop to give yourself access to the
25
machine, to the parts of the machine that you would use. So it

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is that part of the machine.
Q. And how are user accounts labeled?
A. The name that you give it, the name that you send to that
account.
Q. In other words, the user can choose any name they want,
correct?
A. Correct, yes.
Q. Now, what, if anything, did you do to document what you
were doing while you were performing what you were calling the
10
triage of the laptop?
11
A. Sure. I was taking pictures of what I was doing with a
12
BlackBerry, my BlackBerry FBI-issued phone.
13
Q. And why were you using a BlackBerry?
14
A. Ah, that's what I had with me at the time. That's what I
15
received.
16
Q. Now, if you could please flip in your binder to what has
17
been marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibit
18
201A.
19
A. Sure.
20
(Pause)
21
22
A. One second. Sorry.
23
(Pause)
24
Yes, I do.
25
Q. And what is this exhibit?

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A. This is a photograph of the defendant's computer at the
time of the arrest, or the time that I had it.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And how soon after obtaining the laptop did you take this
picture?
A. Right after.
8
9

201A.
10
11
12
(Government's Exhibit 201A received in evidence)
13
BY MR. HOWARD:
14
Q. So, Mr. Kiernan, is it your testimony that this is the
15
first photograph you took of the defendant's laptop?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. Did you do anything to the laptop, click on any windows, do
18
anything at all before you took this picture?
19
A. Ah, no. No.
20
MR. HOWARD: If we could please just zoom into this
21
window right here, Ms. Rosen.
22
Q. Can you describe what this window contains?
23
A. Sure, except for that big flash I had there when I first
24
started taking the pictures. That's the Pidgin chat client,
25
the Pidgin chat program that allows communications between

(212) 805-0300
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individuals, and this is a chat with the username Cirrus.
Q. Do you recognize the username Cirrus?
A. I do.
A. That's the account that our undercover was using.
MR. HOWARD: Now, if you could, Ms. Rosen, if you
could just zoom in on the upper left-hand corner of the screen.
Q. Here it says "Ubuntu desk-top." What does that mean?
A. That was the software -- the operating system that was
10
running on the defendant's computer.
11
Q. Now, does Government Exhibit 201A indicate -- anywhere
12
indicate the time that the photograph was taken?
13
A. Yes, it does, on the second page.
14
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could we please flip to the
15
second page and zoom in on the upper right-hand corner.
16
Q. Here it says, "Properties." What is the information that's
17
depicted here?
18
A. Sure. That's metadata that comes with files. So the
19
picture is part of your file that you look at. This metadata
20
is sometimes -- not "sometimes," it is embedded within these
21
files. So this is just the date and times of the times that I
22
took the pictures.
23
Q. So let's first look down here at the bottom where it says
24
"Camera Properties."
25
A. Sure.
(212) 805-0300
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1
Kiernan - direct
Q. "Camera model: BlackBerry 9930."
What is BlackBerry 9930?
A. That is my phone.
Q. And below that it says, "Date Taken, October 1, 2013,
6:15:56 p.m."
A. Yes.
Q. What does that refer to?
A. That's the time I took the picture in Eastern Time.
Q. And why is it reflected in Eastern Time?
10
A. That is what my phone settings were at.
11
Q. And what time zone is San Francisco in?
12
A. Pacific.
13
Q. And at that time how many hours back was it?
14
A. Three.
15
Q. If you look up here under "Picture Properties," there is a
16
line that says, "Modified: October 1, 2013, 3:15:56 p.m."
17
What does that reflect?
18
A. That the converted time from Eastern to PST, minus the
19
three hours. We just took the three hours off. That is what
20
it looks like.
21
Q. Now, Mr. Kiernan, could you just take a moment and flip
22
through your binder of what's been marked for identification
23
purposes as Government Exhibits 201B through 201G, and let me
24
know when you are ready.
25
A. OK. B through G?
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Kiernan - direct
Q. B through G.
A. Got you.
(Pause)
OK.
Q. Sir, do you recognize what all of these exhibits are?
A. Yes.
Q. What are they, generally?
A. Photos that I took of the defendant's laptop at the time of
the arrest.
10
Q. Did you take these photographs?
11
A. I did, yes.
12
Q. Now, as with Government Exhibit 201A, is the time of each
13
photo reflected in the metadata on the second page of each
14
exhibit?
15
A. Yes, it is.
16
Q. And for each one under "camera properties," is the time
17
reflected in Eastern Time rather than Pacific Time?
18
A. It is, yes.
19
20
MR. HOWARD: The government offers Government Exhibits

201B through 201G.
21
22
23
(Government's Exhibits 201B through G received in
24
25
evidence)
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you please publish
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
Government Exhibit 201C, please.
Q. Now, Mr. Kiernan, what time was this photograph taken local
time?
A. 3:17 p.m.
Q. And earlier you testified that the defendant got arrested
at about 3:15, correct?
A. About, yep.
8
9
10
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, if we could just zoom in on

the top bar here, please.
Q. Here it says, "Tuesday, October 1, 3:17 p.m."
11
What does this mean?
12
A. The date and time that the computer had on it when it was
13
running. So the time stamp of the computer.
14
Q. And right to the right here, there is the word "frosty"
15
next to a little white picture. Now it is yellow after the
16
highlighting.
17
A. That was the username that was logged in at the time.
18
Q. And is this the username that you were talking about before
19
on the Ubuntu system?
20
A. Yes, the created username, correct.
21
Q. And who's username?
22
A. Frosty, the defendant. That's his username that he created
23
for that.
24
25

Q. What user account was the defendant logged into at the time
(212) 805-0300
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that you took this computer?
A. The Frosty account.
MR. HOWARD: Could you please zoom out, Ms. Rosen, and
zoom in on this window right here.
Q. What is this window?
A. That is a picture of the active buddy list, again, from
that Pidgin client that -- from the other pictures which were
the actual conversations, there is a buddy list from that same
program that shows you contacts that -- your contacts that you
10
use on the chat.
11
Q. Right here, what is the first contact on the buddy list?
12
A. Cirrus.
13
Q. And the second one right under here?
14
A. Inigo.
15
16

Government Exhibit 201D.
17
Now, if you could zoom in on this window that starts
18
up here.
19
Q. What is this window on defendant's computer?
20
A. This is a browser window pulled up to the foreground. So
21
it is a browser window of a website.
22
Q. And what kind of browser was this?
23
A. This was the Tor browser.
24
Q. If you could just look up here, it says, "Support Tor
25
Browser" on the top.

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What is a Tor browser, Mr. Kiernan?
A. It is a browser, the same as your regular browser,
basically, except you are connecting through the Tor network to
sites that aren't available to your regular browser. It is a
program that allows you to view those things.
Q. Was this Tor browser running when you arrested -- sorry,
when you seized the defendant's computer?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now, if you could just zoom in here on the little tab here.
10
Here it says "Support" and a little thing to the left
11
of it. What is that?
12
A. That is the -- it is the support page of the Silk Road
13
server, and to the left is the Silk Road icon, the logo
14
associated with Silk Road, a man on a camel.
15
Q. And right here, this white box here, what is that white
16
box?
17
A. That's the URL, the page that is actually visited on your
18
browser that was present -- that it was looking at at the time.
19
Q. So turn to the first part of the address,
20
silkroadvb5piz3r.onion, are you familiar with that address?
21
A. I am.
22
Q. And what is that address?
23
A. That is the address of the Silk Road server.
24
Q. And right here it says dot-onion. What does dot-onion
25
mean?
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A. Dot-onion is how you route to a -- or how you get to sites
on Tor, dot-onion Tor sites, as opposed to the sites that you
are usually used to going to, like a dot-com or dot-edu, not
that you can't get to them through the Tor browser but the
dot-onion is a special category on the Tor network that you can
get to through the Tor browser.
Government Exhibit 201G, please.
Q. And, Mr. Kiernan, what is this window here, the white
10
window?
11
A. That is a picture, again, of the full buddy list that was
12
running on the computer at the time.
13
Q. You had taken photographs by this point, correct?
14
A. At this point, yes, I was.
15
Q. What is the white window here?
16
A. Yes. Again, that is the buddy list from that Pidgin
17
software.
18
Q. So, again, we have cirrus and inigo and also later on the
19
list we have mg and smed?
20
21
22
THE COURT: Is that right?

A. That is correct, yes.
23
Government Exhibit 201J.
24
Q. And what is this window, Mr. Kiernan?
25
A. This was the bottom of that buddy list that you just saw.
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Q. I direct your attention to the little icon here on the
bottom right-hand corner. Do you recognize what that is?
A. I do. That's the logo associated with or the avatar
associated with the user account Dread Pirate Roberts on the
Silk Road site.
Q. Up here there is a little what appears to be some sort of
stop sign or some sort of traffic sign?
A. Yep.
Q. Then next to it is "dread@pl5mmj2ron" and I can't tell,
10
that looks like h-u-t-y, a bunch of characters, dot-onion?
11
A. Yes.
12
Q. Do you recognize what this is?
13
A. Yes. That's the account of the -- that is the Pidgin
14
account to log into the Pidgin client.
15
16
Government Exhibit 201D to the jury.
17
Q. Earlier you testified this is the Tor browser, correct?
18
A. Correct.
19
Q. What, if anything, did you do to look at what other Web
20
pages had been visited previously by the user of this computer?
21
A. Sure. I used the Tor's -- the Tor's, the browser's back
22
button to go back.
23
Q. Could you indicate where the back button is?
24
A. Sure. It's right under the word "Support" with the little
25
icon and the arrow facing to the left.

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Q. And what does clicking on the back button do?
A. It brings you to one page before the one that you are
currently on. It brings you back one page in your browser.
Government Exhibit 201K.
Q. And so what does this depict, Mr. Kiernan?
A. This is the result of clicking that back button, bringing
you to the one page before.
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, if you just again zoom in on
10
the URL bar at the top.
11
Q. So here at the beginning it says "silkroadvb5piz3r.onion."
12
Is that the same Silk Road address you testified about earlier?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. Here at the end it says "slash support." What does that
15
mean at the end of an address?
16
A. That is the page that you are actually on, the actual -- it
17
is the page that you are on.
18
Q. And who picks the name of the page?
19
A. The person designing the website.
20
Q. Did you click on the back button again?
21
A. I did.
22
23
Government Exhibit 201L.
24
Q. Mr. Kiernan, do you recognize what this depicts?
25
A. I do.
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Q. And what is this?
A. This, again, is the previous page to the one we saw before.
This is the mastermind page of the Silk Road site.
Q. And why do you call it the mastermind page?
A. I am just going by the name that it is called on the site
itself.
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you zoom in on the top,
please.
Q. So here at the end of the address it says slash mastermind;
10
is that what you are referring to?
11
A. That is, yes.
12
Q. Again, this would have been chosen by the designer of the
13
site, is that correct?
14
A. Yes.
15
MR. HOWARD: If you could zoom out for a second? And
16
zoom in on this fifth row right here.
17
Q. Here it says "cold BTC" and below it "144,336.40," correct?
18
A. Correct.
19
20
Government Exhibit 201M, please.
21
Q. And what does Government Exhibit 201M depict?
22
A. Again, this is the -- hitting the previous button, this is
23
one page before the mastermind page.
24
25
MR. HOWARD: So let's zoom in on the top of the URL

bar on the top of the page, please, Ms. Rosen.
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
Q. And here at the beginning is the same Silk Road address
that you testified about earlier?
A. It is, yes.
Q. And what is the name of this page?
A. Landing.
Q. And down here in this box, what does it say?
A. Dread Pirate Roberts.
Q. And what does this indicate?
A. This was the login name associated with -- the login name
10
used to get to those other pages that you saw before, the
11
mastermind, the support page, all of those pages there.
12
Q. Now, approximately how long did you spend with the laptop
13
in the library performing this triage?
14
A. The whole time, for about three hours.
15
Q. What did you do with the laptop after you completed the
16
triage?
17
A. I gave it over to RCFL, which is a computer team out in San
18
Francisco. The agent's name was Beeson, Chris.
19
Q. So let's take a step back for a second.
20
After you were done with the laptop in the library,
21
what did you do next with the laptop?
22
A. We transported it back to the defendant's residence.
23
Q. And at what point did you provide it to Special Agent
24
Beeson?
25
A. After we were back at the residence, we gave it back to

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Kiernan - direct
Special Agent Beeson. I gave it to Beeson.
Q. Did there later come a time that you had access to the
contents of the laptop again?
A. Yes.
Q. And how did that occur?
A. That occurred -- after they imaged the drive or made a
duplicate of the drive, we got a copy -- we got that copy back
to us in New York.
Q. And in what format did you get the copy of the hard drive?
10
A. It came on a hard drive. It was a digital -- a forensic
11
image of the defendant's computer that came on a hard drive
12
back to us.
13
MR. HOWARD: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
14
THE COURT: You may.
15
(Handing)
16
17
Q. So I just handed you what's been marked for identification
18
purposes as Government Exhibit 500.
19
Do you recognize this?
20
A. Yes.
21
22
A. This is the result of the images taken by Chris Beeson that
23
we got back to us in New York.
24
25
A. Again, by the serial number on it and the serial number bar

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1
codes that match on this.
2
3
4
5
6
7
Kiernan - direct

500.
MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I think that has to be
subject to connection.
THE COURT: Let me ask, that is the hard drive that
you understand was provided to you from Beeson?
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: All right.
10
All right. It is received.
11
12
BY MR. HOWARD:
13
Q. Now, what did you do after obtaining this hard drive?
14
A. After obtaining this hard drive, I made a staging copy of
15
it. So what I do is I take the drive from Beeson that has the
16
image on it. I plug this into a write locker, just a device, a
17
piece of hardware that connects to the hard drive. And I take
18
the images that were there and I copied them to a drive, or a
19
NAS drive that I have with me.
20
Q. So you create a staging -- what is a staging copy?
21
A. A staging copy. It is a copy that I can work on without
22
working on this one.
23
Q. And you indicated that you plugged it into a write locker.
24
What is a write locker?
25
A. A write locker just takes -- makes this so I cannot write

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anything to it. Even with the format it is in, the images -- I
don't want to write anything to the hard drive, basically.
Q. Was the working copy the same as the original?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And how do you know that?
A. I performed an MD5 Hash on my copy that I made. And an MD5
Hash is just a digital fingerprint of the files that I
received. And I performed one on what I got from Beeson, and I
do my own, just make sure that those match, and I know I'm
10
working on a good copy of the data. That's all.
11
Q. So you are doing a comparison of the hash values to show
12
that they match and they show that they are the same copy?
13
A. Correct.
14
Q. Please flip to what has been marked as Government Exhibit
15
200A, please.
16
A. Sure. I am running out of room up here.
17
Q. Mr. Kiernan, would it be helpful if I remove the laptop?
18
A. Please. I don't want it to wind up on the floor.
19
MR. HOWARD: May I approach, your Honor?
20
THE COURT: You may.
21
(Pause)
22
Q. Do you recognize what Government Exhibit 200A is?
23
A. I do.
24
Q. And what is it?
25
A. A screenshot I took of the MD5 Hashes.

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Kiernan - direct
Q. You said you took this screenshot, correct?
A. Yes. I'm sorry. A screenshot I took.
3
4

200A.
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, if you would publish 200A,
please.
10
Q. So here it says, "MD5 Hash, Computed hash" and a long
11
string of characters that start with a 1e61.
12
A. Yes.
13
MR. HOWARD: If you could zoom in on that.
14
Q. What is this?
15
A. That is the result of the mathematical -- the equation of
16
the program run on the imaged drive that make that hash, make
17
that value.
18
Q. This was the value that you compared with the value of the
19
file from Special Agent Beeson?
20
A. Correct. Right.
21
22
23
24
25
THE COURT: Wait.

Q. Down here it says January 5, 2015.
THE COURT: Wait a second. I want to make sure that I
understand what the two things are that are being compared.
So there is the hard drive that you received from
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Kiernan - direct
Beeson?
THE WITNESS: Right, which had the -- I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Which had had the image?
THE WITNESS: Right. It had a hash on it, too, but it
is the actual hash from the defendant's laptop when they made
that image.
THE COURT: OK. So when there was an initial image
made on the defendant's laptop that Mr. Howard just took back
from you and on the hard drive on the laptop, did it have a
10
hash there?
11
THE WITNESS: Yes.
12
THE COURT: Was there a hash there?
13
THE WITNESS: Yes. That is what I am comparing it to.
14
THE COURT: So you are measuring the hash on the
15
laptop to the hash on the Beeson drive?
16
THE WITNESS: Right, that is coming back.
17
THE COURT: All right. I am with you now.
18
BY MR. DRATEL:
19
Q. To be clear, this hash, is this hash of the Beeson drive or
20
it's a hash of the staging copy that you made?
21
A. Both, yeah. So when they perform the image, right, when
22
they said sda4_crypt.dd, that is the name of the file that was
23
made by Beeson from the laptop. All right? That gets put on
24
the drive here, this one. And when I look at it, I compare
25
that hash value with the one that is here, which is the image
(212) 805-0300
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1
Kiernan - direct
of the drive from the defendant.
THE COURT: I see.
THE WITNESS: That is all.
Q. Just real quickly, at the bottom here, on the bottom right,
it says January 5, 2015.
A. Mm-hmm.
Q. That is the date that you took the screenshot?
A. Yes.
Q. This was after you performed the analysis of the hard
10
drive?
11
A. Yes.
12
Q. Now, what would have happened if one file had gotten
13
changed during your analysis of the laptop?
14
A. Those MD5s change. They would be different.
15
Q. They would no longer be a match?
16
A. Right. The fingerprints wouldn't match.
17
Q. So after you received the image and made a staging copy,
18
what, if anything, did you do to analyze the contents of the
19
laptop?
20
A. I mounted the image, the DD file, using a tool called FTK
21
Imager.
22
Q. What does it mean to mount the image?
23
A. You see, it's one file right now. When you mount an image,
24
when you -- you take that file and you put it back into the
25
contents over there, the file system comes back up. So you can
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actually read what was on that drive at the time. You can read
the files on it.
Q. And what kind of software did you use to read the files
that were in the image?
A. That was the FTK Imager software.
Q. Do you have any training using FTK Imager?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how many computers have you analyzed using
FTK Imager?
10
A. Hundreds.
11
Q. Mr. Kiernan, if you could take a moment and flip in your
12
binder to what has been marked for identification purposes as
13
Government Exhibits 211 through 216.
14
A. OK.
15
Q. Do you recognize what these are?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. And what are they?
18
A. These are screenshots of FTK Imager and some of the
19
results.
20
Q. Who took those screenshots?
21
A. I did.
22
23

211 through 216.
24
25

(212) 805-0300
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1
Kiernan - direct
(Government's Exhibits 211 through 216 received in

evidence)
Government Exhibit 211, and if you could zoom in on the left.
Q. What does this left -- upper left-hand corner window
represent?
A. Sure. So that's the file structure from the defendant's
laptop.
MR. HOWARD: Could we just zoom in on that window.
10
Q. Right here at the top it says "sda4_crypt.dd." What is
11
that?
12
A. That is the file created during that image. That is the
13
file that gets created during the imaging of the drive.
14
Q. And below here we have all of these little folders with
15
names by them. What are these?
16
A. So that's your file structure, your directory, kind of like
17
a filing cabinet that you have at your house where you put all
18
your different files into them. So each drawer is a different
19
folder. And then under that you could have more folders and so
20
on and so on to get to --
21
Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.
22
A. That's OK.
23
Q. If you could zoom in down here where the folder is labeled
24
"home."
25
A. Sure.
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Q. And "frosty." This is the home directly on Ubuntu Linux
system that you testified about earlier?
A. It is.
Q. And what does the home directly contain on the Ubuntu Linux
system?
A. That contains user accounts.
Q. How many user accounts did you find on the defendant's
computer?
A. Just this one.
10
Q. What was the name of that account?
11
A. Frosty.
12
Q. Did you review the contents of files that you found on the
13
defendant's computer?
14
A. I did.
15
Q. During your review of the defendant's laptop, did you find
16
any photographs of the defendant?
17
A. I did.
18
Q. Can you please take a minute to look at what's been marked
19
for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 273 in your
20
binder.
21
A. Sure.
22
(Pause)
23
OK.
24
25
A. I do.
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
Q. And what is the exhibit?
A. It is a file found on the defendant's laptop.
Q. And how many pages is this exhibit?
A. It is two.
Q. What is the second page of the exhibit?
A. The second page contains the file structure again and some
metadata associated with where I found the file.
Q. By the way, are there other files that you extracted from
the laptop other than this?
10
A. Yes, there are.
11
Q. And for every file that you extracted, did you also include
12
a screenshot of where it was located and its metadata, as you
13
described?
14
A. I did.
15
16

273.
17
18
19
20
21
Government Exhibit 273. Zoom in on the top.
22
Q. Mr. Kiernan, is this the contents of the file you just
23
testified about?
24
A. Yes, it is.
25
Q. It says, "Ulbricht, Ross William." It is a passport.

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Can we go to the second page, please.
Now, this is the screenshot from FTK Imager, is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And so what is depicted along the very bottom? If you
could zoom into this. What does "home/frosty/documents/
archive/documents/reference/ids.jpg mean?
A. That is the folder structure or where the file actually was
contained on the drive, like what you saw before.
10
MR. HOWARD: Could you zoom out, Ms. Rosen.
11
Q. And what is this window right here on the lower left-hand
12
corner?
13
A. That is the metadata or the data which is describing what
14
that file actually is.
15
Q. Now, are you familiar with metadata on the Ubuntu Linux
16
operating system?
17
A. I am.
18
Q. So, first, I want to draw your attention to the "Date
19
Modified" field, January 5, 2007.
20
What does the date modified field mean?
21
A. The date that it was modified, or changed, or made a change
22
to it.
23
Q. So how could, let's say, a document be modified?
24
A. Going into a document, adding something to a document,
25
removing something from a document, that will change the date

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modified.
Q. So this represents the last date that the file was changed,
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Right above that, we have a field called "Date Created."
What does date created refer to?
A. That's the time or the date that the file was actually put
on that machine or that volume, that computer.
Q. Does this field refer to the date that the file was
10
created -- first created anywhere?
11
A. No, not a born date but when it is on that machine.
12
Q. So here to the right we see a date of May 8, 2012.
13
A. Correct.
14
Q. That is the date created, correct?
15
A. Correct.
16
Q. Now, in this instance the date created is after the date
17
modified?
18
A. Correct.
19
Q. So what does that indicate to you, Mr. Kiernan?
20
A. That the files were put there at a different time. That is
21
all. They were probably copied over or moved over --
22
23

A. -- or backed up. They were copied over --
24
25
THE COURT: I will allow it.

(212) 805-0300
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A. They were just moved at a different time.
Q. Does this indicate to you whether or not this file was
first created on this computer?
THE COURT: Based upon your experience, what does that
information indicate to you?
THE WITNESS: That it was just on a different machine
or a drive at a different time and put here later on.
Q. Now, this date created of May 8, 2012, is this the only
10
file you found on defendant's computer with a date created of
11
May 8, 2012, or were there others?
12
A. Oh, there were others. Sure.
13
Q. Approximately how many others?
14
A. Hundreds of them. I mean, there are others there.
15
Probably when that user account was created on the machine.
16
17
THE COURT: Overruled.
18
Q. Based on your training and experience, in seeing that
19
many -- that quantity of files with that same date created,
20
what does that indicate to you?
21
22
THE COURT: I will allow it.
23
A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat that?
24
Q. From your training and experience --
25
A. Yes.
(212) 805-0300
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F1ldulb3
Kiernan - direct
Q. -- based on seeing the large quantity of files with the
same date created of May 8, 2012, what did that indicate to
you?
A. Yeah. The files were moved from either another computer or
another piece of media to the machine for later on.
Q. What is the "date accessed" field? It says October 2,
2013.
A. Just when it was looked at or accessed, touched.
Q. That was the day after the defendant's arrest, correct?
10
A. Correct.
11
Q. And why would this date be after the defendant got
12
arrested?
13
A. Because we were doing a live image. The machine is on. So
14
all those files, you know, they unfortunately get -- not
15
"unfortunately." They are just accessed during that time,
16
during that imaging of the machine. The machine is on so we're
17
not turning it off to take it so that gets changed.
18
Q. Does this metadata indicate whether or not the file was
19
changed when it was accessed for the purpose of your image?
20
A. It does not.
21
Q. Does it indicate whether or not the file was changed when
22
it was accessed for the purpose of the image?
23
A. No.
24
Q. Was it changed?
25
A. No. The files weren't changed.

(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
Q. So, Mr. Kiernan, if you could now flip to Government
Exhibit 274 in your binder.
A. Sure.
A. I do.
Q. And what is it?
A. Again, a file taken from the defendant's laptop.
Q. And who took it from the defendant's laptop?
A. A file that I extracted from the defendant's laptop, yes.
10
11

274.
12
MR. DRATEL: I have no objection.
13
14
15
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you please publish it.
16
Q. Did you find any chat logs on the defendant's computer?
17
A. I did.
18
Q. And what is a chat log?
19
A. Depending -- it's a file that records or keeps the
20
conversations between two people. Like if you use your phone,
21
if you go back and check your text messages, the same type of
22
deal. It just puts it into a file, depending on the client
23
that you are using at the time on the machine.
24
Q. And what kind of chat program did you find on the
25
(212) 805-0300
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F1ldulb3
1
2
Kiernan - direct
A. I found Tor chat on the defendant's computer.

MR. HOWARD: If you could please publish Government
Exhibit 215, which is already in evidence. And if we could
zoom in on the left, upper left window.
Q. Mr. Kiernan, this is the directory structure of the
computer again, is that correct?
A. Yes, it is.
8
9
MR. HOWARD: And if we could zoom in on this little

area here.
10
Q. Here is a folder that says ".torchat," correct?
11
A. Correct.
12
Q. What is that folder?
13
A. That is the full folder for Tor chat when you load -- when
14
you install Tor chat on your computer.
15
Q. Now, Mr. Kiernan, you testified earlier that when you first
16
got the defendant's computer, you saw a Pidgin chat program
17
window open, is that correct?
18
A. That is correct.
19
Q. Is that a different program than Tor chat?
20
A. Yes, it is.
21
Q. Did you find the Pidgin program also installed on the
22
23
A. I did.
24
25

215 again. Sorry. I had one more question.
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
Could we just zoom in on the upper right window.
Q. What are these lists on the left side of the window?
A. That's the log files associated with Tor chat as it keeps
the logs on your computer.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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Kiernan - direct
Q. And if we can just zoom in on a couple of those. That's
good. Here you can see there's a whole bunch of characters
followed dot log. What does dot log mean?
A. Just the formality or the extension of the file that's
there. It's just called dot log in this case.
Q. So Mr. Kiernan, what is Tor chat?
A. A program, again, to allow you to communicate with other
people in a program. It -- it's person to -- it's
communication between people on the Tor network as opposed to
10
open network.
11
Q. Have you personally ever used Tor chat?
12
A. I have.
13
Q. Have you tested Tor chat?
14
A. I have.
15
Q. Have you saved the logs of Tor chats on your own computer?
16
A. I have.
17
Q. If you save a Tor chat log to your own computer, how is
18
your part of the conversation labeled?
19
A. The username "myself."
20
Q. And if you save a log of a chat you have on your computer,
21
how is the other side of the conversation labeled?
22
A. With the name given to that other user, your other buddy.
23
Q. And who gives that name to the other user?
24
A. The user of the computer. The user of the Tor chat
25
program.
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
THE COURT: Why don't you ask the same question,
Mr. Howard, in terms of "myself." I'm unclear whether it's a
name you designate for yourself or whether it's an automatic
name given.
Q. Mr. Kiernan, is "myself" something that you choose for
yourself as a user of Tor chat, or is it automatically selected
to you by the program?
A. The program gives you that user account, the username and
the log as "myself."
10
Q. And the name of the other party in the conversation, is
11
that automatically selected for you?
12
A. No. You can assign that a name.
13
Q. Could it be assigned anything the user wants?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. So, for example, if you're chatting with your mother, you
16
can label it "mom" if you want, right?
17
A. Correct, because the usernames in Tor chat are long,
18
tough-to-read names. You can see, as a matter of fact, from
19
that log file it's the actual name of the user on there. So to
20
make it human-readable, you give it an easier-to-use name like
21
"mom."
22
Q. So if we could please look at Government Exhibit 222 in
23
your binder, please. Do you recognize what this exhibit is?
24
A. I do.
25

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Kiernan - direct
A. This is a log file from that Tor chat directory.
Q. This is from the defendant's computer?
A. From the defendant's computer; yes.
Q. And did you extract this file?
A. I did.
6
7
MR. HOWARD: The government offers Government

Exhibit 222.
10
11
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can you please publish
12
Government Exhibit 222, please. Zoom in on the first few lines
13
there.
14
Q. Is this what a Tor chat log looks like, Mr. Kiernan?
15
A. It is.
16
Q. So let me just describe the very top line it says "This log
17
file is not signed and has no cogency of proof."
18
Are you familiar with what that is?
19
A. I am.
20
Q. What is that?
21
A. That's, again, a default setting when the log file starts
22
getting created, it puts that in there.
23
Q. So in other words, all Tor chat log files automatically
24
include that at the top, correct?
25
A. They'll put it in there, yes.

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Kiernan - direct
Q. And you testified that you tested and used Tor chat
yourself, right?
A. I have.
Q. And you've saved your own logs, correct?
A. I have.
Q. Have the logs been true and accurate copies of the
conversations that you logged?
A. They have been, yes.
Q. Now, if we can just -- I'm going to direct you to the
10
second line here where it says 2012-04-24, 17:06. What does
11
that mean?
12
A. It's the date and time of the chat.
13
Q. So it's April 24, 2012, correct?
14
A. Correct.
15
Q. And what format is the time depicted in?
16
A. It's based on the 24-hour clock.
17
Q. So what time is that in time that we more commonly use?
18
A. 5:06.
19
Q. To the right of there, you see this sSh, it's a lower-case
20
S, big S, little H. What is that?
21
A. That's the name given -- that's the name that was assigned
22
to one of the chat participants.
23
Q. It's the other participant in the chat that was logged,
24
correct?
25
A. Yes.
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
Q. And it says "greetings" to the right. What is that?
A. That's what was typed in, "Greetings."
Q. And the next line next to date and time it says "myself: hi
there."
A. Yes.
Q. What is "myself"?
A. "Myself" is the user of the client software on the
computer.
Q. The user who is logging the files on the computer, correct?
10
A. Yes.
11
Q. Now, Mr. Kiernan, can you please flip to what's been marked
12
for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 22B in your
13
binder. Do you recognize what this is?
14
A. I do.
15
Q. What is this?
16
A. An excerpt from the full chat log.
17
Q. Is that an excerpt of the Tor chat log we just looked at?
18
A. Yes, it is.
19
Q. Did you participate in the creation of this exhibit?
20
A. I did.
21
Q. Is this a true and accurate excerpt from the full Tor chat
22
log?
23
A. Yes. they are. Yes.
24
MR. HOWARD: The government offers Exhibit 222B.
25

(212) 805-0300
894
F1LGULB4
Kiernan - direct
(Government's Exhibit 222B received in evidence)
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can we publish this and zoom
into the top.
Q. Right at the top it has 4XSB, a long list of characters,
dot log. What does this refer to?
A. That's the log file this was found in. It's the user's Tor
name.
Q. Is this the name of the file as it was stored on the
10
11
A. Yes.
12
Q. And here it says "page 1/5."
13
refer to?
14
A. That's the -- "1" being the page that this was on and "5"
15
is how many pages were in the whole chat.
16
Q. So this indicates, in other words, that this is the first
17
page of the larger Tor chat file, correct?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. And that the larger file had a total of five pages,
20
correct?
21
A. Correct.
22
Q. So I'm going to read it right now.
23
24
25
What does page one of five
"It's sSh: May I ask to whom I am speaking? A

formality of course, myself DPR and you are.
SSh: This squid."
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
Whose computer was this chat recovered from?
A. The defendant's.
Q. Mr. Kiernan, I want you to take your time and look through
what's been marked in your exhibit binder as 222A all the way
through 232E, and let me know when you're done. Look at them
generally and let me know.
A. I'm sorry. 222A to?
Q. To 232E.
A. Okay.
10
Q. So do you recognize these exhibits?
11
A. I do.
12
Q. What are they?
13
A. All excerpts from the Tor chat logs that were found in the
14
defendant's computer.
15
Q. And again, these are not full chat logs. They're excerpts,
16
correct?
17
A. Correct.
18
Q. Did you participate in the creation of these exhibits?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. Are they true and accurate excerpts of the entire log
21
files?
22
A. They are, yes.
23
Q. Does each also contain the file name of the full log file
24
at the top like Government Exhibit 222B?
25
A. Yes.
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Kiernan - direct
Q. And does each excerpt also indicate where in the larger Tor
file -- the Tor chat log file it was located?
A. Yes.
4
5

222A, 2223, 2224, and 2225 and 225B, 2226A through 226I, 227A.
6
7
Apparently, I said four "2's" at one point when I

should have only said three "2's."
Where was I?
THE COURT: 227A.
10
MR. HOWARD: Through 227H, 2228, 222 -- sorry. Just
11
two "2's", 9A through 229E; 231A through 231C; and 232A through
12
232E. And that's it.
13
THE COURT: So no 228?
14
MR. HOWARD: All of them start with "22." Why don't
15
we do it this way: So we have 2A, 3, 4, 5A and 5B, 6A through
16
6I, 7A through 7H, 8, 9A through 9E. Now, it's 231A through
17
231C and 232A through 232E and that should cover it.
18
19
MR. HOWARD: Just note that 229B was cut at the last
20
second, so that's not one that should be included.
21
22
Mr. Dratel.
23
MR. DRATEL: We had some prior objections which we
24
25
repeat.
THE COURT: Yes.
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Kiernan - direct
MR. DRATEL: To the extent they weren't covered, the
others, we make the same objections Vayner, 403. And because
there has been some alteration of numbers, there have been some
changes.
5
6
THE COURT: Understood. Those objections are noted.

They're overruled. And those documents are received.
7
8
(Government's Exhibits 222A, 223, 224, 225A-225B

received in evidence)
9
10
(Government's Exhibits 226A-226I, 227A-227H, 228

11
12
(Government's Exhibits 229A-229E, 231A-231C, 232A-232E

13
MR. HOWARD: Thank you, your Honor.
14
Q. In your review of the defendant's laptop, did you discover
15
files that appeared to be journal entries?
16
A. I did.
17
Q. Mr. Kiernan, can you please look in your binder what has
18
been premarked for ID purposes as Government Exhibit 240A
19
through 240D and 241.
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. Do you recognize these exhibits?
22
A. I do.
23
24
A. Files I extracted from the defendant's laptop.
25

(212) 805-0300
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1
Kiernan - direct
240A through 240D and 241.
MR. DRATEL: The same prior objections.
THE COURT: All right. Those objections are noted,
overruled and those documents are received.
5
6
7
(Government's Exhibits 240A-240D, 241 received in

evidence)
Government Exhibit 240A.
Q. What is the title of this file, Mr. Kiernan?
10
A. 2010.docx.
11
Q. And what is the date that this file was last changed as
12
reflected in the meta data?
13
A. 2/27/2011.
14
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can you please add the
15
highlights to this document just for the ease of reading them
16
in. I'm going to read the highlighted portions now. If we can
17
zoom in at the top.
18
"2010. I started the year in the middle of my stint
19
with Good Wagon Books. Donny and I had worked on it the last
20
quarter of 2009 and we were trying to ramp up by hiring people
21
to go door-to-door. It was a real struggle and by the end of
22
our trial partnership, it was clear that we hadn't grown the
23
business to the point that it made sense for me to stay on.
24
25
"I had to find a job quickly, so I turned to Craig's

List and found American Journal Experts. For the next six
(212) 805-0300
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months, I edited scientific papers written by foreigners. It
sucked. The hours were flexible, but it drained me. I hated
working for someone else and trading my time for money with no
investment in myself."
Can we go to the next page, please.
"While all of this was happening, I began working on a
project that had been in my mind for over a year. I was
calling it Underground Brokers, but eventually settled on Silk
Road. The idea was to create a website where people could buy
10
anything anonymously, with no trail whatsoever that could that
11
could lead back to them. I had been studying the technology
12
for a while, but needed a business model and strategy. I
13
finally decided that I would produce mushrooms so that I could
14
list them on the site for cheap to get people interested. I
15
worked my ass off setting up a lab in a cabin near Bastrop off
16
the grid. In hindsight, this was a terrible idea and I would
17
never repeat it, but I did it and produced several kilos of
18
high quality shrooms. On the website side, I was struggling to
19
figure out on my own how to set it up. Driving out to Bastrop,
20
working on Good Wagon, and trying to keep up my relationship
21
with Julia was taking all of my time. By the end of the year,
22
I still didn't have a site up, let alone a server."
23
Ms. Rosen, can you zoom out to the next page, please.
24
"In 2011, I am creating a year of prosperity and power
25
beyond what I have ever experienced before. Silk Road is going

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Kiernan - direct
to become a phenomenon and at least one person will tell me
about it, unknowing that I was its creator. Good Wagon Books
will find its place and get to the point that it basically runs
itself. Julia and I will be happy and living together. I have
many friends I can count on who are powerful and connected."
Ms. Rosen, can you please publish Government Exhibit
240B.
Q. Mr. Kiernan, what is the name of this file?
A. 2010.ODT.
10
Q. And where was it located on the computer?
11
A. I'm sorry. 2011.ODT.
12
Q. And where in the defendant's computer was it located?
13
A. This was in his home/frosty/Documents/journal/2011
14
directory.
15
Q. And what was the date when this file was last changed?
16
A. 2/5/2012.
17
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can you please add the
18
highlights to this document as I'll read them, if you can just
19
zoom in the top.
20
"2011. Still working on Good Wagon Books and Silk
21
Road at the same time. Programming now. Patchwork php mysql.
22
Don't know how to host my own site. Didn't know how to run
23
bitcoind. Got the basics of my site written. Launched it on
24
freedomhosting. Announced it on the bitcointalk forums. Only
25
a few days after launch, I got my first sign-ups and then my

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Kiernan - direct
first message. I was so excited I didn't know what to do with
myself. Little by little, people signed up, and vendors signed
up, and then it happened. My first order. I'll never forget
it. The next couple of months, I sold about ten pounds of
shrooms through my site. Some orders were as small as a gram
and others were in the qp range. Before long, I completely
sold out. Looking back on it, I maybe should have raised my
prices more and stretched it out, but at least now I was all
digital, no physical risk anymore. Before long, traffic
10
started to build. People were taking notice, smart, interested
11
people. Hackers. For the first several months, I handled all
12
of the transactions by hand. When they came into my local
13
bitcoin client, I matched them up with the amount of time" --
14
I'm sorry -- "with the amount and time of the purchase and did
15
all of the necessary account adjustments. Between answering
16
messages, processing transactions, and updating the codebase to
17
fix the constant security holes, I had very little time left in
18
the day, and I had a girlfriend at this time!"
19
I'm skipping ahead.
20
"So, while still manually processing transactions and
21
responding to a bigger and bigger message load, I learned to
22
use codeigniter and began rewriting the site. At some point
23
around this time, I also learned how to host my own site and
24
was on my own servers."
25
"Rewriting the site was the most stressful couple of

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months I've ever experienced. I worked all day everyday, still
processing transactions by hand, dealing with scammers,
answering messages, meeting new strange people through my site
and getting to know them. When I finally got the site ready,
there were several new features including a tumbler and
automatic mated payment processing."
"AND in addition to these stressors, Silk Road got its
first press, the infamous Gawker article. When you look at the
historic #s, you can see right when it happened. A huge spike
10
in signups, and the beginning of an upward trend in commerce
11
that would continue until the time of this writing, and
12
hopefully for much longer. There was really a smattering of
13
press at this time including the local news in FL! Most
14
interestingly, two U.S. senators came out against the site and
15
against bitcoin. They made a big deal out of it and called for
16
a shutdown of the site."
17
"Some major advances were price pegging, vendor
18
ranking, a more sophisticated feedback system, buyer stats,
19
transaction logging and building up the admin toolset. Most
20
importantly, the market began its path to maturity. Vendors
21
and buyers forged great relationships, more vendors came in to
22
fill holes in the market, other completed and variety, customer
23
service, and professionalism emerged. After making about $100k
24
an up to a good 20-$25k monthly, I decided it was time to bring
25
in some hired guns to help me take the site to the next level.
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This would prove to be the biggest challenge I ever faced. I
actually got to see a fairly wide range of employee types.
SYG, the schmoozer who winds up being a waste, DA, the model
employee. Super enthusiastic, hard working and trainable.
Then there was Utah, professional who does it for the money.
Gets the job done, but his heart isn't always in it. First I
put up an ad for a system administrator. I needed someone to
help me take the back end to the next level in security. I had
many candidates duke it out in the forum on many topics from os
10
to isolation to software to security. In the end, I made what
11
I thought was a wise decision."
12
"I was still working with SYG, so Utah was set to work
13
on rewriting the site. Around this time, Variety Jones showed
14
up. This was the biggest and strongest willed character I had
15
met through the site thus far. He quickly proved to me that he
16
had value by pointing out a major security hole in the site I
17
was unaware of."
18
"He convinced me of a server configuration paradigm
19
that gave me the confidence to be the sole server administrator
20
and not work with someone else at all. He has advised me on
21
many technical aspect of what we are doing, helped me speed up
22
the site and squeeze more out of my current servers. He also
23
has helped me better interact with the community around Silk
24
Road, delivering proclamations, handling troublesome
25
characters, running a sale, changing my name, devising rules,

(212) 805-0300
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and on and on. He also helped me get my head straight
regarding legal protection, cover stories, devising a will,
finding a successor and so on. He's been a real mentor.
Shortly after I met VJ, I started looking for a right hand man,
an administrative assistant of sorts. Someone to answer
messages, manage the forum and Wiki, and eventually even
dispute resolution. I found that man in Digital Alchemy, who
was one of the original members of the site and had been
modding the forums for pretty much the whole time. There were
10
lots of applicants, but for some reason DA stuck out as
11
promising, and he has turned out to be invaluable. He quickly
12
learned how to respond to messages and keep things running
13
smoothly. Before long he was managing the forums, the wiki,
14
the messages, the resolution center, scam prevention, and odd
15
jobs for me like mini-research projects and tedious tasks."
16
Q. Now, Mr. Kiernan, at the end of this excerpt, there was a
17
reference to an employee named DA. Did you find any references
18
to DA in the Tor chat log files?
19
A. I did, yes.
20
21
Government Exhibit 232B, which has already been admitted into
22
evidence. Zoom in on the top half, a half at a time.
23
24
25
"myself: Are you ready to become judge jury and

executioner.
Da: Yep."
(212) 805-0300
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And then there's an emoticon.
"myself: OK, click resolutions, form your support
panel.
4
5
Myself: This will pull up the most past-due

resolution.
Da: It's loaded.
Myself: Top line is how many past due resolutions
there are. It says "under review" to the users. The next six
lines are the transaction details. Kill resolution link
10
finalize the resolution without crediting buyer or seller. You
11
rarely need to use this, but sometimes both parties are
12
completely unresponsive and you need to clear it out of your
13
queue."
14
15
16
By the way, I note this is a conversation from

January 8, 2012. The conversation continues:
"myself: Left stats table is the buyer. Purchases
17
are the number of purchases that were eventually finalized and
18
not canceled and doesn't count open orders. Refund rate is the
19
total money returned to the buyer from the resolution center
20
divided by the total money spent. And the time-frames are the
21
stats from the past 30 days, 90 days, and the life of the
22
buyer's account. Keep notes of what these numbers mean so you
23
can review them if you forget."
24
25
Ms. Rosen, can you please publish Government

Exhibit 232A, which has already been admitted into evidence.
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Kiernan - direct
Q. Mr. Kiernan, at the top it says here pages "148-149 out of
257"?
A. Yes.
Q. Does 257 refer to the total number of pages in the full Tor
chat log?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. So now I'm going to read dated March 14, 2012.
8
9
"myself: Do you make purchases with a DigitalALCH

account.
10
11
Da: [...] No, not for a while. I had at one point

but only to way out there drop location. States away :)"
12
Emoticon.
13
Da: I use the KindestDaze generally.
14
Myself: That's good. Your name is getting higher
15
profile on the forums and we wouldn't want anyone with your
16
address from past orders to compromise you.
17
18
We might want to construct a new identity for you

though.
19
Da: Say that I'm quitting. Yea?
20
Myself: Maybe, or just disappear. Let's think on it
21
for a few days.
22
Da: IRL or online?
23
Myself: No, just online. My concern is that LE will
24
see that DA is a player at Silk Road by your forum presence and
25
then track down who you bought from and sold to under that name
(212) 805-0300
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1
Kiernan - direct
and then find you irl.
2
3
Da: Damn. I really like the DigitalALCH moniker. It

really fit me. Oh, well freedom is better than prison."
Emoticon.
"myself: Yep. I got to protect my assets too.
Da: Do you mean me? Or outside assets.
Myself: You."
Government Exhibit 222A, which has already been admitted into
10
evidence.
11
Q. Mr. Kiernan, this is page one of a Tor chat log chat that's
12
a total of 16 pages, correct?
13
A. Correct.
14
Q. It's dated April 20 -- the first excerpt is dated April 20,
15
2012, correct?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. "sSh: I have the forum to manage and the profile updates
18
review. Is there anything else you'd like me to get doing, or
19
shall I refer to DA for such business.
20
21
22
23
24
25
Myself: Normally DA, but since he is out of

commission, he can't manage it.
Myself: That's fine for now. Once we get you trained
on support, you'll have plenty to do before he's recovered."
It picks up again on April 21, 2012, correct,
Mr. Kiernan?
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Kiernan - direct
A. Yes, it does.
Q. "Myself: OK, go to .onion/support and tell me what you
see.
4
5
6
SSh: I see an entire screen of new options! Many

radio boxes with various labels.
Myself: Perfect. I'll give you a little tour. New
vendors, you are familiar with. Click messages. The number
next to it is the number of unread messages for SR support and
vendor support.
10
Vendor messages go to the front of the queue. It's
11
just like the bulk reply view in the main messages area, but it
12
pulls up something like 75 messages at a time and the options
13
to the right of the message are a little different.
14
15
16
SSh: All right. I've got it loaded. It seems that

quite a few people need assistance today.
Myself: Actually the only difference is the forward
17
to DPR box. If this is checked it forwards all unread messages
18
from the user to me."
19
And once again, the next section starts on April 21,
20
2012, right?
21
A. Correct.
22
23
24
25
MR. HOWARD: "myself: We already gave him his seller

status back, so just tell him to change it.
We should have told him to change it before we made
him a seller again.
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1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Kiernan - direct
But I don't want to go back and forth taking and
giving.
SSh: Okay then. Should I put in a direct message, or
add it to the support message on the list page.
Myself: Just add it to the message since we haven't
sent them off yet.
SSh: How's this sound: Your Vendor Status has been
restored. Please change your profile to comply with the
seller's guide. Best of fortune regarding your business here
10
11
12
on the Silk Road.

Myself: That's good, but give him a warning too.
Something like.
13
Please read the seller's guide very carefully. If we
14
find you out of compliance again, your selling privileges will
15
be permanently removed."
16
17
Exhibit 240C, which is already in evidence.
18
Q. Mr. Kiernan, what is the name of this file?
19
A. Daily.ODT.
20
Q. And where was it located on the defendant's computer?
21
A. This was under the
22
home/frosty/documents/journal/2011Q4/December/week 4 directory.
23
Q. And does the meta data indicate the date on which the file
24
was last saved?
25
A. Yes. 12/29/2011.
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Q. "12/29/2011 chatted with VJ again today. Him coming onto
the scene has reinspired me and given me direction on the SR
project. He has helped me see a larger vision. A brand that
people can come to trust and rally behind. Silk Road chat,
Silk Road exchange, Silk Road credit union, Silk Road market,
Silk Road everything! And it's been amazing just talking to a
guy who is so intelligent and in the same boat as me, to a
certain degree at least. So, today we talked mostly about the
exchange, what to charge, boundary conditions, etc. Then I
10
went for a surf with Billy Becket. Caught a couple of good
11
waves, chatted with him took some wipe outs and went in. Soon
12
after, I ran around the city with Ashley and Kelly. We drank
13
some beer, walked around the city and botanical gardens. I
14
then went out with Jessica. Our conversation was somewhat
15
deep. I felt compelled to reveal myself to her. It was
16
terrible. I told her I have secrets. She already knows I work
17
with bitcoin which is also terrible. I'm so stupid. Everyone
18
knows I am working on a bitcoin exchange. I always thought
19
honesty was the best policy and now I didn't know what to do.
20
I should have just told everyone I am a freelance programmer or
21
something, but I had to tell half truths. It felt wrong to lie
22
completely so I tried to tell the truth without revealing the
23
bad part, but now I am in a jam. Everyone knows too much.
24
Dammit."
25
Mr. Kiernan, during this excerpt, there was a

(212) 805-0300
911
F1LGULB4
Kiernan - direct
reference to an employee named VJ?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you find any references to VJ in any Tor chats?
A. I did, yes.
Government Exhibit 226G, which has already been admitted into
evidence.
8
9
10
11
12
THE COURT: Just for your planning purposes, we'll end

in about three minutes for lunch.
MR. HOWARD: Maybe it makes sense to do this exhibit
and then take the break.
THE COURT: That's fine.
13
Q. Mr. Kiernan, was this another Tor -- this is an excerpt of
14
another Tor chat log recovered from the defendant's computer?
15
A. Yes, it is.
16
Q. And up here it says "page 312 of 1,096." Does that reflect
17
that there were 1,096 pages in the full chat log?
18
A. Yes, it does.
19
Q. And this takes place on January 15, 2012, correct?
20
A. Correct.
21
Q. "VJ." Emoticon or some sort of symbols. "Kicks self for
22
assuming. Should have asked for the code long ago. Just
23
didn't see the need. Mark it down as a learning experience for
24
me as well.
25
Myself: This whole thing has been on a wing and a

(212) 805-0300
912
F1LGULB4
Kiernan - direct
prayer. Besides basic php and html I've learned everything on
the fly.
3
4
Vj: Well, I'm glad I didn't go for that nap, this was
much more rewarding.
Vj: And you've done a damn fine job but you're
becoming more of a target for hackers and better ones as time
goes by.
8
9
Myself: I hadn't opened a Linux terminal until I left

freedom hosting a month after the site launched.
10
11
Vj: Just thank FSM that they didn't start on you

earlier.
12
Myself: FSM?
13
Vj: #Diety.
14
Myself: Ahh.
15
Vj: Flying Spag.
16
Myself: I've been incredibly blessed.
17
Vj: I have a lot of admiration for the big brain on
18
you.
19
I don't know two other people that could have done it.
20
Myself: I was a hairs breath from going to jail
21
before the site even launched for growing shrooms."
22
Q. Mr. Kiernan, all of these chat logs that we have reviewed,
23
whose computer were they recovered from?
24
A. The defendant's.
25
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, let's take our lunch

(212) 805-0300
913
F1LGULB4
Kiernan - direct
break now. We'll resume at 2:00. I want to remind you not to
talk to anybody, including each other about anything having to
do with this case. Thank you.
(Jury excused)
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(212) 805-0300
914
F1LGULB4
Kiernan - direct
(In open court; jury not present)
THE COURT: Mr. Kiernan, you can take a break. We're
going to pick up again at 2:00.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
(Witness temporarily excused)
THE COURT: Let's all be seated. I just had two
things: One, Mr. Dratel. You had asked for the hard drive to
be received subject to connection. I thought that I heard
enough for it to be received, but if you perceive by who is
10
going to testify, if anything occurs that undoes that, then
11
obviously we'll take that into consideration, but it did appear
12
to me there was enough to get it authenticated.
13
MR. DRATEL: That's the reason why it's sort of the
14
cart before the horse to a certain extent.
15
THE COURT: I understand.
16
MR. TURNER: We'll complete the chain with the next
17
witness.
18
19
Then there were the series of exhibits with the 22s
20
that we had, all of which were subject to various objections,
21
including some that weren't noted on the pretrial order because
22
they came in afterwards. I just wanted to make it clear the
23
nature of the Court's rulings. The objections were, among
24
others, the Vayner objection. The Court does believe that
25
given the testimony of this witness, that there is sufficient

(212) 805-0300
915
F1LGULB4
1
2
Kiernan - direct
grounds for authenticity.

In terms of it not being part of the charged conduct,
that's really a relevance objection, and the Court finds that
these are directly relevant to a number of issues in the case.
In terms of 403, the Court does not find that these
are substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice
or misleading the jury or wasting time; indeed, they are
evidence which is necessarily to the government's case in terms
of the theories that they have posited and not unduly
10
prejudicial, so the Court did allow those, and all of those
11
really fall under the same rationale.
12
13
Was there anything that you folks wanted to raise

before we took our own break?
14
MR. TURNER: No, your Honor.
15
MR. DRATEL: No, your Honor.
16
THE COURT: Thank you. I do have one matter at 1:00.
17
Oh, I don't. It's been taken off-calendar. I don't have a
18
matter at 1:00, so you folks are welcome to keep all of your
19
things there as you see fit.
20
Thank you. We'll return at 2:00.
21
22
23
24
25
(212) 805-0300
916
F1LGULB4
Kiernan - direct
AFTERNOON SESSION
2:10 p.m.
THE COURT: Let us all be seated.
Mr. Howard, you may proceed, sir.
THOMAS KIERNAN, resumed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. HOWARD:
10
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kiernan.
11
A. Good afternoon.
12
Q. So in the morning, you testified that it took approximately
13
three hours to do the triage of the laptop, right?
14
A. That's correct.
15
Q. Again, what were you trying to do with the laptop triage?
16
A. Preserve evidence and not let the laptop get into a state
17
of encryption.
18
Q. And following the triage, you provided the laptop to
19
Special Agent Beeson?
20
A. I did.
21
Q. And approximately how long were you performing the triage
22
in the library itself?
23
A. In the library? About an hour or so.
24
Q. And what happened after you were finished in the library?
25
A. We took the laptop and I carried it and transported it to

(212) 805-0300
917
F1LGULB4
Kiernan - direct
the defendant's residence.
Q. And how did you transport it there?
A. We had a van or we had a car outside.
Q. Did you drive?
A. I did not drive, no.
Q. And what, if anything, did you do while you were in the car
with the laptop?
A. Just ensured that the laptop stood on. I didn't want the
laptop to turn off during that time.
10
Q. And what did you do after you arrived in the defendant's
11
residence?
12
A. I continued triage, kept the laptop running and then waited
13
for Special Agent Beeson to show up to give it to him.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(212) 805-0300
918
F1ldulb5
1
2
Kiernan - direct
MR. HOWARD: Now, Ms. Rosen, could we please publish
Government Exhibit 222G again for just a quick moment.
Sorry, I meant 226G. Pardon me.
Q. So, Mr. Kiernan, this was the excerpt that we read before
we took the break for lunch, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Right here at the top it indicates it is page 312 out of
1096, correct?
A. It does, yes.
10
Q. Were there other chat excerpts that were taken from this
11
1096 page file involving VJ?
12
A. Yes, there was.
13
MR. HOWARD: So at this point, Ms. Rosen, if you could
14
please publish Government Exhibit 226F, please.
15
Q. Mr. Kiernan, this is page 964 of the 1096-page chat log,
16
right?
17
A. Correct.
18
Q. This conversation took place on June 1, 2012.
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. "Vj: Also, Variety Jones is dead, poor fella. No more seed
21
biz for him.
22
"Myself: :(
23
"Myself: you goin by cimon now?
24
"Cimon: I was keeping that going as a way to get btc
25
legally in the UK, but I'm leaving the UK, and the legality
(212) 805-0300
919
F1ldulb5
1
Kiernan - direct
elsewhere means it's best I shut it down.
"Cimon: I have no idea what i'm going by now, dammit!
"Myself: well I just changed you from vj to cimon on
torchat.
"Myself: so yer cimon.
"Cimon: there ya go.
"Cimon: and that's how changes are made.
"Cimon: cimon it is."
Now, Mr. Kiernan -- actually, Ms. Rosen could you put
10
that back up for a second.
11
So, Mr. Kiernan, up here at the top, we have the name
12
"VJ," correct?
13
A. Correct.
14
Q. And who names the other side of a Tor chat that's logged on
15
a one zone computer?
16
A. The user of that computer.
17
Q. And so down here at 5:53 p.m., you see "Simone"?
18
A. Correct.
19
Q. Is that a different user than VJ?
20
A. A different username.
21
Q. Right, but is it the same person in this chat?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. What appears to have happened?
24
A. The associated name given by the user of the computer, the
25
defendant, changed it to Cimon.

(212) 805-0300
920
F1ldulb5
1
Kiernan - direct
evidence, and zoom in, please.
Q. This is on August 31, 2012, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. "Cimon: Hey, could you scratch together a little org chart
for me, so I know who's supposed to be doing what, on the
forums and support?
"Myself: sure
10
"Myself: support
11
"Me
12
"Indica|Sativa
13
"SquidShepherd
14
"Forum
15
"Admins
16
"Me
17
"Indica|Sativa
18
"Mods
19
"SquidShepherd
20
"Limetless
21
"Nomad bloodbath
22
"Guru
23
"Myself: Squid talks to indi, indi talks to me. very
24
25
occasionally Squid and I will talk."

Ms. Rosen, could you please publish Government Exhibit
(212) 805-0300
921
F1ldulb5
1
Kiernan - direct
227A, which has already been admitted into evidence.
And this chat occurred on October 24, 2012, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. "Myself: DA and squid both went awol
"Myself: squid said his comp died and is waiting on a
replacement, but that was about 5 days ago now
"Myself: DA is gone for good
"Cimon:" expletive, "I haven't seen DA onlne since we
talked, what happened with him?
10
11
Myself: got a new guy on who seems good and am looking

for another
12
"Myself: he slowly flaked out. the last I heard he had
13
a family emergency to rush off to and didn't know when he'd be
14
back
15
"Myself: right now I'm spending about an hour a day on
16
resolutions and inigo (new guy) is chipping away at the
17
messages
18
"Myself: I tried recruiting from bitcointalk.org
19
"Myself: but I may just dip into the local community
20
"Cimon: dude, really?
21
"Myself: well?
22
"Myself: working for a criminal enterprise isn't
23
exactly attractive
24
"Myself: to everyone
25
"Cimon: What were you paying squid?

(212) 805-0300
922
F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
"Myself: $900/week
"Cimon: What are the major issues CSRs deal with now?
"Myself: the toughest stuff is keeping up with the
vendors and knowing when to demote them
"Cimon: not including resolutions
"Myself: that ties into the resolutions
"Myself: besides that, answering messages is pretty
8
9
10
trivial, just time-consuming

"Cimon: how many vendors get demoted, and how many
permanently?
11
"Myself: messages, resolution, vendor quality control
12
"Myself: 1-3 per week
13
"Cimon: what are the issues, just non-delivery?
14
"Myself: it varies
15
"Myself: just a sec
16
"Myself: faking feedback, going around escrow, loan
17
18
scamming, exchange scamming, fake product..."

19
Government Exhibit 240D, which is already in evidence.
20
Q. Mr. Kiernan, what was the name of this file as it was saved
21
on the defendant's computer?
22
A. 240D? Excuse me. "Daily.odd."
23
Q. Where was it located on the defendant's computer?
24
A. This is the "home/frosty/documents/journal/2012/Q1/January/
25
week one" folder.

(212) 805-0300
923
F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
Q. And what was the date that this file was last changed,
according to the metadata?
A. 1/1/2012.
Q. "January 1st, 2012
"Well, I'm choosing to write a journal for 2012. I
imagine that some day I may have a story written about my life,
and it would be good to have a detailed account of it. I did
some work in the morning, can't remember now exactly what it
was, but it wasn't long before I was responding to text
10
messages and making plans to hang out on the beach. It was a
11
holiday for everyone, so the beach was as packed as I've ever
12
seen it, a teeming mass of humanity, helicopters flying
13
overhead, waves crashing, a real spectacle. I was offered a
14
ticket to a warehouse party by Nicole, but just couldn't bring
15
myself to accept. I just was not in the partying mood. George
16
also invited me to join him camping for 2-3 nights. I wanted to
17
go, but the swell is low and it's just too much time away from
18
Silk Road, and there is so much to do before the rents get
19
here, and before I leave for Thailand. I need to get
20
DigitalAlch set up handling the resolutions, and it just seems
21
like Variety Jones gives my broad sweeping tasks on a daily
22
basis. Emma, Jessica, Cally, Kim, Tim and a couple others,
23
Mike, were all on the beach with me. Playing paddle ball and
24
soaking up the sun. I've been thinking a bunch about what is
25
next for me. I like my little life here in Bondi, but what if I
(212) 805-0300
924
F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
love Thailand, or want to go on even further? I don't want to
go backwards, and while I could see a lot more in Australia,
I'm not even taking the opportunities that are coming up as it
is. I need to find a place I can work from cheap and off the
beaten path."
evidence.
Q. Mr. Kiernan, this is page 2 of the 15-page chat log, is
10
that correct?
11
A. Correct.
12
Q. "Myself: go here
13
"Myself: http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/support
14
"Myself: let me know when you are there
15
"Scout: just waiting for tor
16
okay, i'm there and
it's saying 'no access'
17
"Myself: you are signed in with scout?
18
"Scout: yes
19
"Myself: do you know how to figure out your account
20
id?
21
"Scout: i did many months ago. lol. remind me?
22
"Scout: oh i found it
23
"Myself: what is it?
24
"Scout: 77594f7023
25
"Myself: try again

(212) 805-0300
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F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
"Myself: refresh
"Scout: okay, it worked - i'm in.
"Myself: cool
"Myself: it's kind of a mess
"Myself: but once you learn the tools, it's not so
bad."
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you please publish that
again, and can you zoom in on the first three lines of the chat
and put it at the top of the screen, please.
10
And you could please publish 201K on the bottom of the
11
screen, please, and zoom in on the URL bar.
12
Q. So, Mr. Kiernan, here you see during the chat "myself" says
13
"http" and then an address. Do you recognize that address?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. And is that the same address that you saw in -- on the Tor
16
browser that was running on the defendant's computer?
17
A. It is, yes.
18
19
20
evidence.
21
Q. Mr. Kiernan, this chat is on January 26, 2013, correct?
22
A. Correct.
23
Q. "Myself: so, im down a set of hands as of 12 hours ago
24
25
"Myself: now would be a great time for you to come on

board if you are still interested
(212) 805-0300
926
F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
"Myself: or do you still have reservations?
"Scout: the only reservation i have is about the
safety of being part of the staff. safety from legal issues,
that is. having a hell of a time getting past that worry.
5
6
"Myself: the way i got over it is by looking at the

risk/reward
"Myself: if you look closely at the risk part of it
"Myself: you can break it down into 2 parts
"Myself: chances of getting caught, and what will
10
11
12
happen if you get caught

"Scout: right - and i have no idea what the answer is
to either of those hypotheticals
13
Myself: I'm not 100% about the what will happen part.
14
It's not like there have been cases in the past like ours. But
15
when you look at the chance of getting caught part, it's
16
incredibly small
17
18
"Myself: put yourself in the shoes of a prosecutor

trying to build a case against you
19
"Myself: what evidence could they pin on you?
20
"Myself: there is nothing on your laptop for them to
21
use, if you obscure your bitcoins propperly, there is no way
22
for them to trace them back to me. Realistically, the only way
23
for them to prove anything would be for them to watch you log
24
in and do your work.
25
"Scout: right. which, as i understand it, they could.

(212) 805-0300
927
F1ldulb5
1
2
"Myself: this is just a realization I've come to after

doing this for almost 2 years
3
4
Kiernan - direct
"Myself: sure, someone could stand behind you without

you realizing it
"Myself: we are definiely on the cutting edge, the
fringe. I'm not sure how else to put it, but the biggest con
about this work is not the risk of going to jail or having your
life disrupted
9
10
"Myself: it's getting used to and living with that

possibility no matter how remote
11
"Myself: and keeping your work a secret."
12
13
241.
14
Q. Mr. Kiernan, what is the name of this file as stated on the
15
16
A. "Log.text."
17
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you just add the
18
highlights to the portions that we will read for now.
19
Q. And, Mr. Kiernan, the first entry on the top of the first
20
page is labeled March 20, 2013, correct?
21
A. Correct, yes.
22
Q. "Someone posing as me managed to con 38 vendors out of 2
23
btc each with a fake message about a new silk road posted about
24
cartel formation and not mitigating vendor roundtable leaks.
25
Worked on database error handling in CI."

(212) 805-0300
928
F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
"4/9/2013: Ssbd considering joining my staff.
"04/10/2013: Some vendors using the hedge in a
falling market to profit off of me by buying from themselves.
turned of access log pruning so I can investigate later.
Market crashed today. Being blackmailed again. Someone says
they have my ID, but hasn't proven it."
"4/11/2013: Set up tor relays. Asked scout to go
through all images on site looking for quickbuy scam remnants.
Cimon told me of a possible ddos attack through tor and how to
10
mitigate against it. Guy blackmailing saying he has my id is
11
bogus."
12
"4/13/2013: Inigo is in the hospital, so I covered
13
his shift today. Zeroed everything and made changes to the site
14
in about 5 hours."
15
"4/14/2013: Did support. inigo returned. Started
16
rewritting orders->buyer_cancel, been getting error reports
17
about it."
18
19
20
"5/1/2013: Symm starts working support today. Scout

takes over forum support."
"5/3/2013: Helping smed fight off attacker. site is
21
mostly down. I'm sick. Leaked IP of webserver to public and
22
had to redeploy/shred. Promoted gramgreen to mod, now named
23
libertas."
24
25
MR. HOWARD: And now, Ms. Rosen, could you actually

just stay on the next-to-last page of this exhibit and just
(212) 805-0300
929
F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
focus on the very, very bottom, the last entry.
Q. What is the date of the last entry in this log file?
A. 9/30/2013.
Q. What does the metadata reflect about the date that this
file was last changed?
A. That's not on my copy I have here.
MR. HOWARD: Do you want to go to the next page. Can
we zoom in on the bottom left-hand window here.
Q. And what does the metadata, Mr. Kiernan, indicate about the
10
date that this file was last changed?
11
A. 10/1/2013.
12
Q. Now, Mr. Kiernan, could you flip in your binder to what's
13
14
242.
15
A. Yes.
16
17
A. A file that I exported from the defendant's laptop.
18
Q. What was the name of the file?
19
A. "Weekly_report1-4-13.txt."
20
Q. Where was the file located on the computer?
21
A. This is from the home/frosty/backup/reference/reports
22
folder.
23
Q. On what date was -- according to the metadata, on what date
24
was this file saved to the defendant's hard drive?
25
A. 1/5/2013.
(212) 805-0300
930
F1ldulb5
1
Kiernan - direct

242 into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: The same objections, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Those objections are
overruled. GX242 is received.
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you just please add the
highlights. Just go to the very top, including the title.
Q. "Weekly Report 1-4-2013.
10
"I. Important
11
"A.) Still getting dozens of users who have fallen for
12
the fake SR phishing sites."
13
Zoom out. At the bottom:
14
"Demoted: NorCal420HookUp
15
"Reason: blatant ooe deals, he even had a listing for
16
ooe deals so he could get feedback."
17
18
Would you go to the last page of the metadata, and

could we focus in on the left bottom corner.
19
Mr. Kiernan, what is indicated about the date -- where
20
does it indicate when this file was saved from the defendant's
21
computer?
22
A. 1/5/2013.
23
Q. Where on the file is it? Can you just point with your
24
laser pointer?
25
A. Somebody took my laser pointer. The "Date Created" entry,

(212) 805-0300
931
F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
right there.
Q. And does the file indicate when the file was last edited?
A. Yes.
Q. And what date was that?
A. 1/5/2013.
Q. Now, Mr. Kiernan, was this the only report of this format
that you found on the defendant's computer, or did you find
other similar ones?
A. I found similar ones.
10
Q. And where were they located on the defendant's computer?
11
A. In that same directory.
12
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can we zoom out on this file
13
and look at the top right-hand corner.
14
Q. Is this the folder in which you found these similar
15
reports?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. Do the other reports similarly have dates in the title?
18
A. They do, yes.
19
Q. Did the dates correspond to the dates within the documents?
20
A. They did, yes.
21
Q. And are the dates modified generally consistent with the
22
dates in the titles and in the documents?
23
A. They are, yes.
24
25
MR. HOWARD: If you could zoom a little further,

Ms. Rosen, just the ones that are labeled "weekly report," from
(212) 805-0300
932
F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
here to here.
Q. So we have weekly report 11-3-12, 11-12-12. We have
1-25-13 at the bottom.
If you would scroll down.
(Pause)
We have some dated in February and March of 2013,
isn't that correct, Mr. Kiernan?
Q. In your review of defendant's laptop, did you find any
10
copies of individuals belonging -- sorry, identification
11
documents belonging to other individuals?
12
A. I did, yes.
13
Q. Could you please flip in your binder to what's been marked
14
as government -- sorry, actually, Ms. Rosen, could you publish
15
Government Exhibit 216, which has already been admitted into
16
evidence.
17
Do you recognize what this depicts, Mr. Kiernan?
18
A. I do. It's the directories where I found those files.
19
Q. And what is -- Ms. Rosen, could we just zoom in on the path
20
name down here.
21
What is the name of the folder that you found these
22
ID's in?
23
A. Sure. The home/frosty/backup/reference directory.
24
25
MR. HOWARD: Could we zoom back out, Ms. Rosen, and

zoom in on the upper right-hand corner of the screen.
(212) 805-0300
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Q. What does this depict, Mr. Kiernan?
A. This is just a file listing of everything that was in that
directory, the directory I just spoke of.
Q. Here we have files that are labeled inigo.jpg.gpg,
symm.tar.gz.gpg, libertas.jpg.gpg, cirrus.jpg.gpg and then
another file pics.tar.gz.gpg. Are you familiar with files with
the extension ."gpg"?
A. I am, yes.
Q. What kind of files are those?
10
A. Those are encrypted files.
11
Q. Were you able to access the contents of those encrypted
12
files?
13
A. I was, yes.
14
Q. How were you able to do that?
15
A. I used PGP to unencrypt them. I found a password on the
16
defendant's laptop that I tried to put in and was able to
17
recover those files.
18
Q. So, Mr. Kiernan, would you please flip to what has been
19
marked as Government Exhibit 256 in your binder, please.
20
A. Sure. OK.
21
Q.
22
A. I do.
23
Q. What is it?
24
A. It's the unencrypted file that I found in that directory
25
structure.
Do you recognize this exhibit?

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Q. This is after you used the password you found on the
defendant's computer to successfully decrypt the files?
A. Yes, this was after.
Q. What is the file name?
A. This was "inigo.jpg.gpg."
Q. And this file was located in the directory that we were
just looking at?
A. In the IDs directry, yes.
9
10

256.
11
12
13
14
BY MR. HOWARD:
15
Q. Here you can see it is a Virginia driver's license with the
16
name Andrew Michael Jones, with an address and other personal
17
identifiers, correct?
18
19
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you please -- I'm sorry,
20
what was the file name again? What was the name of the file?
21
A. Inigo.jpg.gpg.
22
Q. Now, Mr. Kiernan, in reviewing the Tor chats on the
23
defendant's computer, did you find any chat logs involving
24
communications with anyone identified as Inigo?
25
A. I did, yes.
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
evidence.
Q. And this is dated October 17, 2012, correct?
Q. "PatHenry: I got that DL scanned for you
"Myself: hi
"Myself: send it over
"PatHenry: let me know if you got it
10
"Myself: handsome devil
11
"Myself: is your address the same?
12
"PatHenry: :)
13
"PatHenry: why thank you
14
"PatHenry: yes for now
15
"PatHenry: I will be moving in the next few months to
16
northern virginia
17
"PatHenry: where im originally from
18
"Myself: ok
19
"Myself: I'm just getting your permissions set up so
20
you can access the support panel
21
22
"PatHenry: cool. I log into the main site for that

correct?
23
"Myself: how was doing your assignment?
24
"Myself: yes, login as inigo and I'll give you the url
25
in a sec
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2
Kiernan - direct
"PatHenry: squid gave me the support link, just let me
know when I have access
"Myself: is the page loading for you?
"Myself: a bunch of boxes with forms in them
"PatHenry: it just said no access but I havent tried
again since giving you my user id
"Myself: try again
"PatHenry: trying now
"PatHenry: okay im in
10
"PatHenry: thanks
11
"Myself: cool, I'll let squid take over. don't touch
12
anything you haven't been fully trained on, and take lots of
13
notes, don't trust your memory!
14
"PatHenry: yes sir
15
"PatHenry: notebook handy.
16
"PatHenry: thanks again sir :)
17
"Myself: you bet :)"
18
Mr. Kiernan, the next part of this file starts on
19
October 17, 2012, correct?
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. And in this excerpt we have the user "myself" and the user
22
"inigo," correct?
23
A. Correct.
24
Q. Were the prior excerpts taken from the same file?
25
A. Yes.
(212) 805-0300
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F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
Q. And the prior excerpts involve PatHenry and myself,
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. So what does this indicate that this name is now Inigo?
A. Just that that buddy list that we talked about before, the
contact list had been changed by the defendant.
Q. And this chat box, the next excerpt is from October 17,
2012, correct?
A. Correct, yes.
10
Q. "Myself: How's your first day going?
11
"Inigo: Tor has been giving me such a headache."
12
The next excerpt is on October 21, 2012, correct?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. "Myself: CSR = customer support rep
15
"Inigo: how many of us are there?
16
"Myself: right now just you and squid.
17
18
19
evidence.
20
Q. Mr. Kiernan, is this another chat with Inigo from the same
21
log file?
22
A. It is, yes.
23
Q. And is this dated November 5, 2012?
24
A. Yes.
25
Q. "Inigo: So uhh we have a vendor selling cyanide.

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"myself: Link please
"inigo: Getting it now."
Then Inigo sends a link:
"http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion," and then a lot more text.
"myself: was it reported, or did you stumble on it?
"inigo: it was reported
"inigo: not sure where we stand on this, hes not
listing it as a poison, but its only the most well known
assasination and suicide poison out there
10
"inigo: lol
11
"inigo: at the same time, fentanyl has been used to
12
assasinate people too, but we allow that to be sold for
13
recreational use
14
"inigo: but this isnt a drug
15
"inigo: its tricky
16
"myself: cyanide has a bad reputation
17
"myself: as you say
18
"myself: the vendor lists a bunch of legit uses
19
"myself: and there are plenty of poisions you can get
20
off the shelf
21
"inigo: very true
22
"myself: some of the drugs we allow are poisons in
23
certain dosages
24
"inigo: so we're going to allow this?
25
"myself: it's bad for image/pr

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"myself: just brainstorming with ya
"inigo: ah ok
"inigo: yeah it deff is
"inigo: i almost want to order some haha :X
"inigo: just to keep on hand
"myself: I think we'll allow it
"inigo: ok
"inigo: i kind of like the idea of allowing all kinds
of industrial chemicals, whatever they may be used for
10
"myself: it's a substance
11
"myself: and we want to err on the side of not
12
restricting things
13
"inigo: absolutely
14
"inigo: this is the black market after all :)
15
"myself: it is, and we are bringing order and civility
16
to it."
17
18

223, which has already been admitted into evidence.
19
Mr. Kiernan, this is from a different log file,
20
correct, than the last one we read?
21
A. Yes, it is. Yes.
22
Q. And this chat occurred on October 25, 2012?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q. "Cp: do you need to see my id?
25
"Myself: yes
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F1ldulb5
1
2
"Cp: or can i just tell you my name? like i did a few

months ago
3
4
"Cp: yea, I can do that, ill have to get brave enough

to do so, lol
5
6
Kiernan - direct
"Myself: I'll need your id with current address. It

will be stored encrypted
"Myself: and I will probably never need to decrypt
"Cp: so, I guess ill just have to trust you on that
"Cp: thats a big trust
10
"Myself: Yea, that's true."
11
Mr. Kiernan, the next section starts on October 25,
12
2012, correct?
13
A. It does, yes.
14
Q. Up here, the entire chat log that this was taken from was
15
259 pages, correct?
16
A. Correct.
17
Q. "Myself: you'll need to keep notes all week and then write
18
a report
19
"Myself: at the end of each week
20
"Myself: so that's the only thing you'll keep local
21
"Myself: that's a bit incriminating
22
"Cp: okay, I have a true cryptd hd"
23
Now, Mr. Kiernan, in your role as a computer
24
scientist, have you encountered something called TrueCrypt?
25
A. I have, yes.
(212) 805-0300
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Q. What is TrueCrypt?
A. TrueCrypt is a piece of software that enables people to
encrypt or basically take your files, put them into a safe type
of deal, and so other people can't access them, basically.
Q. Now, Mr. Kiernan, the next portion of the chat is on
October 26, 2012, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. "Cp: what will be my main responsibilities?
"Myself: at first, answering support messages.
10
"Myself: We get 100 - 200 per day
11
"cp: are those just from vendors? or are they from
12
buyers as well?
13
"Myself: both
14
"cp: will I answer directly to you? or is there
15
someone in between?
16
"myself: you will talk to me and inigo
17
"myself: did you come up with a new name for yourself?
18
"cp: havent really thought about that yet
19
"myself: I'll be introducing you to inigo shortly
20
"cp: okay, any names that you like?
21
"myself: it's up to you
22
"cp: ill think of one shortly
23
"myself: how about pokerface
24
"cp: lol
25
"cp: thats a great one

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"myself: or holdem
"cp: i like holdem too
"cp: or fullhouse
"cp: fluh
"cp: flush
"myself: flush?
"cp: its a poker hand
"myself: yea, is that what you'd like to be called?
"cp: full house, flush, straight
10
"cp: I like flush
11
"cp: how is my identity protected
12
"cp: thinking of worst case scenario --
13
"cp: of course
14
"myself: well, the only record I'll have of it is your
15
scanned photo id, which I will encrypt and store on my laptop
16
where I use whole disk encryption on a hidden OS volume
17
18
"cp: okay, I think i already have my driverslicense

here on my computer
19
"cp: i had to scan it a year ago
20
"cp: so, that should be easy
21
"myself: is the address the same? I'm going to send
22
you a letter to confirm
23
"cp: yes it is
24
"cp: Also, are you the only person that knows all the
25
employees?
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"myself: Yes, no one knows anyone else
"cp: Good."
Mr. Kiernan, the next part of the chat or the next
excerpt starts on November 4, 2012, correct?
A. Correct, it does.
Q. "Flush: was my salary of 1200 that you paid me last friday
was that for this week?
"Myself: your pay is $900/wk
"Flush: 900 i mean
10
"Myself: friday's pay is for the preceeding week."
11
Mr. Kiernan, the next part starts at November 7, 2012
12
at 11:44 a.m., correct?
13
A. Correct.
14
Q. "flush: i had a few people letting me know that someone is
15
selling cyanide
16
"Myself: yea, we're allowing it
17
"Flush: do we allow that?
18
"Flush: okay
19
"Myself: what do you think
20
"Myself: ?
21
"Flush: cyanide can be used for other purposes
22
"Flush: than nafarious ones
23
"Flush: its actually a blood pressure medication
24
"Flush: but its very dangeous
25
"Flush: and there are other purposes for it as well...

(212) 805-0300
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1
Kiernan - direct
its very popular for poisoning."
Mr. Kiernan, the next excerpt is from November 8,
2012, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. That is from the same chat log?
A. The same log, yes.
Q. "Myself: if you find yourself idle while I'm gone, I would
like you to do some recon on the competition. see what's out
there in terms of alternatives to Silk Road. what are they
10
doing better than us. how big are they. read up on BMRs forum
11
and site and see what they are up to for me
12
13
"Flush: thats funny, I had planned on looking into

BMR."
14
Mr. Kiernan, the next chat is from page 81 of 259 of
15
the same chat log?
16
17
Q. November 22, 2012?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. "Flush: got a ? for you.. How much are we growing each
20
month? Just out of curiosity..
21
"Myself: hmm
22
"Myself: lemme pull up the latest
23
"Myself: looks like around 15%
24
"Flush: wow, thats huge
25
"Myself: that # is confidential fyi

(212) 805-0300
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"Flush: and its the darknet
"Flush: understood
"Myself: dude, we're selling drugs
"Myself: there is nothing to compare this to
"Myself: or course this last month the data is quite
skewed. There is a massive tank in sales on the chart. should
snap back though."
8
9
Mr. Kiernan, the next excerpt is on December 11, 2012,

correct?
10
A. Correct.
11
Q. "Myself: where I think we are lacking is in quality
12
control. We don't have the tools built and I am sure there we
13
can improve there. I'm talking about making sure vendors are
14
complying with the rules"
15
Mr. Kiernan, the next section is from December 22,
16
2012, correct?
17
A. That is correct.
18
Q. "flush: selling stolen credit cards is vioalation right?
19
"Myself: yes
20
"Flush: k."
21
"flush: also accepting moneypak instead of bitcoins
22
"flush: right?
23
"myself: yes, that would be going around escrow.
24
The next section is five days later, on December 27,
25
2012, correct?
(212) 805-0300
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A. Yes.
Q. "myself: you're in charge of vendor support for now, and
inigo is in charge of customer support. Also, I want you to go
back through all of the vendors you demoted and give them a
second chance. Send them a message like this:
"We'd like to give you a second chance to get your
account back in good standing. This will be your last warning.
If you disregard the Seller's Guide again, your vending
priviledges will be lost permanently. To bring your account
10
back into good standing, you must pay for the commissions you
11
should have paid on all of your out of escrow transactions to
12
date. It is your responsibility to determine how much this
13
comes to. If you low-ball it, we will investigate and
14
permanently demote your account. If anything you should include
15
a little extra as an apology and show of good will. Send this
16
money to 'SR Quality Control' via your account page. Message me
17
when this is done."
18
Mr. Kiernan, this next excerpt is from December 31,
19
2012, correct?
20
A. Yes, it is.
21
Q. That's page 190 of the 259-page Tor chat log, correct?
22
A. Correct.
23
Q. "Myself: one more thing. We have investigated your account
24
have found that you have done many out of escrow deals, meaning
25
you take the coind directly to by pass SR fees. This is in

(212) 805-0300
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violation of the Seller's Guide and your vendor agreement. Your
account has been suspended.
"We'd like to give you a second chance to get your
account back in good standing. This will be your last warning.
If you disregard the Seller's Guide again, your vending
priviledges will be lost permanently.
7
8
9
10
"Flush: yea, thats a good one, ill replace the one

that i have with this one."
Mr. Kiernan, can you please flip to what has been
premarked as Government Exhibit 255 in your binder.
11
(Pause)
12
Do you recognize this exhibit?
13
A. Yes, I do.
14
Q. And what is it?
15
A. A file pulled off of the defendant's laptop.
16
Q. What is the file name?
17
A. To do underscore weekly.
18
Q. And what does the metadata reflect about the date that this
19
file was saved to the defendant's computer?
20
A. 10/1/2013.
21
22
MR. HOWARD: Would you please publish -- I'm sorry.

The government offers Government Exhibit 255.
23
MR. DRATEL: The same objection as previously.
24
THE COURT: All right. The objection is overruled.
25
GX255 is received.
(212) 805-0300
948
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MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you please zoom in on
the very top section here.
You see here: "Pay employees.
"inigo - $1500
"libertas - $1500
"batman73 - $1000 // ssbd
"cirrus - $1000
"smedley - $2500
10
"spock8642 - $500 // drx."
11
Would you zoom out, Ms. Rosen.
12
13
229E, which has already been admitted into evidence.
14
Q. Mr. Kiernan, is this a chat log excerpt dated October 19,
15
2012?
16
A. It is, yes.
17
Q. "Inigo: another question. do you recommend that i wash my
18
btc from you through bitcoin fog? or are they already mixed
19
sufficiently that I can send them to Mt. Gox to exchange? Also,
20
should I even use Mt. Gox? Or should I be converting them more
21
anonymously? I was thinking maybe one of those prepaid VISA
22
cards that you can load with bitcoin
23
"Myself: I would avoid mtgox if possible. I wouldn't
24
worry about bitcoin fog unless you are trying to move a large
25
amount.
(212) 805-0300
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"Inigo: ok
"Myself: read up on the bitcoin wiki for alternatives
"Inigo: k
"Myself: you could also hit up the exchangers on sr."
Now, Mr. Kiernan, in your review of the defendant's
laptop, did you discover any files that appeared to be an
expense report?
A. I did, yes.
Q. Mr. Kiernan, could you please flip in your binder to what
10
has been marked for identification purposes as Government
11
Exhibits 250.
12
THE COURT: Two-five-zero?
13
MR. HOWARD: Yes.
14
A. OK.
15
16
A. I do.
17
Q. What is it?
18
A. A file extracted from the defendant's laptop.
19
20
A. SR underscore accounting.ods.
21
Q. And what type of file is it?
22
A. It seems to be -- or it is a spreadsheet.
23
24
25

250.
MR. DRATEL: The same objection, your Honor.
(212) 805-0300
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F1ldulb5
1
2
Kiernan - direct
THE COURT: All right. There wasn't an objection on
the pretrial order but we'll talk about that at the break.
GX250 is received.
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q. So, Mr. Kiernan, focusing on the top "sr_accounting.ods" --
Ms. Rosen, could you just zoom in on that. I am having trouble
seeing it myself -- what does that refer to?
A. That is the file name.
10
Q. And who picks the name of the file?
11
A. Whoever created it.
12
Q. And what are the columns in this chart?
13
A. "Date, expense, total expense, revenue, total_revenue,
14
total" and "notes" are the columns.
15
Q. Mr. Kiernan, now, are the rows in this chart in
16
chronological order?
17
A. Yes, they are.
18
Q. And what is the first -- the first row here, what is the
19
first date?
20
A. 7/17/2010.
21
Q. July 17th, 2010?
22
A. July 17th, 2010.
23
Q. How many pages does the spreadsheet go?
24
A. Eight pages.
25
Q. And what is the date of the last entry in the spreadsheet?

(212) 805-0300
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F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
A. 7/3/2013.
Q. And what does the metadata in the file indicate about the
last date that this file was changed?
A. 7/3/2013.
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, if you could please go back to
the first page of the exhibit and add the highlights. Would
you zoom in on them so we could read off a couple.
The first page, July 18, 2010, under the "expense"
column, it is $25. "Notes" column says "lab clothes, carry
10
over from fall 2009."
11
Underneath that there is July 18, 2010. And in the
12
"Expense" column it is $31. In the "Notes" column, "Petri
13
dishes, carry over from fall 2009."
14
15
Further down the page, we have July 26, 2010 and

"Expense" of $80, and the "Notes" say "Pressure cooker."
16
17
Down here, October 15, 2010, $33 expense. The notes

say "humidifier."
18
Ms. Rosen, actually, can you go to the May 2012.
19
Q. Do you see here -- this one isn't highlighted, but
20
April 28, 2012, $1,150 and the notes say "laptop," correct,
21
Mr. Kiernan?
22
A. Yes. It does, yes.
23
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can you move up to the top of
24
the page.
25
Q. Here we have February 21, 2012, an expense listed of

(212) 805-0300
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$132 for "server rent," correct, Mr. Kiernan?
A. That's correct.
Q. Mr. Kiernan, was this the only reference to server rent in
this chart or are there others?
A. There are others.
Q. Below that there is a date, March 2, 2012. And in the
"Income" column, $65,933, and under "Notes," "commissions,"
correct?
A. That's correct.
10
Q. Is this the only reference to commissions in this chart or
11
are there others?
12
13
Q. Down here we have March 10, 2012. "Expense" of $3,200, and
14
the "notes" say "payroll," correct?
15
A. That's correct.
16
Q. Is this the only reference to payroll in this chart or are
17
there others?
18
19
20
21
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could we now publish

Government Exhibit 226C, please.
Actually, there is just one more thing on the last
22
one, pardon me, 250. On that page with the highlights, please.
23
Can you zoom in on the last highlighted row.
24
Q. Mr. Kiernan, here it says May 11, 2012, a $4,000 listing in
25
the "Expense" column, and the notes say "420 grand prize,"
(212) 805-0300
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F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, in your review of the Tor chat logs, did you find any
references around this date to a 420 sale?
A. I did, yes.
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you please now publish
evidence.
Q. Now, Mr. Kiernan, this is, again, pages 575 to 576 of a
10
1096 page chat log, correct?
11
A. That is right, yes.
12
Q. This conversation starts on March 23, 2012?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. "Myself: here's a rough draft for ya. Roll up a doobie and
15
put your party hat on because the biggest stoner holiday is
16
just around the corner, and we've got alot of ganja to deliver!
17
We're pulling out all the stops to celebrate 420 this year.
18
Starting at 4:20 pm on 4/20/2012, we'll be giving away 420
19
prizes every 420 seconds! WOO!!! Gift cards, badass consumer
20
electronics, real gangsta shit! And to top it all off, we're
21
sending one lucky buyer on a dream vacation with all the
22
trimmings!!! The buzz around this is going to be HUGE!"
23
Now, Mr. Kiernan, this picks up and this is from the
24
same Tor chat log, correct?
25

(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
Q. Pages 576 to 577 of 1096 pages?
A. That is correct.
Q. And it is on March 23, 2012, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. "vj: hmm - I wuz thinkin' dat we'd mebbe not go commission
free for this one
"Myself: really?
"Vj: mebbe 1/2? on 'em?
"Vj: I'd like to think that we can bring more to the
10
party than just dropped commissions. We're filling the prize
11
barell already.
12
"Myself: nah, it's just 3 days!
13
"Vj: and a mil in sales
14
"Vj: But ok, this time. But seriously, read the
15
announcement, and you'll see it doesn't lose much if you drop
16
that one fragment on comission free ;)
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
"Myself: we'll be doing a mil in sales every week at

full commission before long
"Myself: I think it's leading by example for the
vendors. they will be more generous if we are
"Vj: true. There is that, and no one will have a klew
what the sale totals are.
"Myself: and we're selling drugs here, first one's
free little jonny! damn that sounds aweful
"Vj: ha!!! Let's give away a couple of playground
(212) 805-0300
955
F1ldulb5
1
2
3
4
Kiernan - direct
sets, with swings and slides, just to complete the picture.

"Myself: sponge bob canoe and life size my little pony
with every hash purchase of 50 btc or more!"
Mr. Kiernan, now, this continues -- this is from the
same Tor chat log, correct?
Q. This is pages 917 to 918 of a 1096-page chat log, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And it starts: "vj: Dude, I'm worried about our winner.
10
"Myself: whasamatta
11
"Vj: He's trying to dry out
12
"Vj: Heroin
13
"Vj: it's not working.
14
"Vj: and I think his recent influx of cash didn't help
15
"Myself: oh geez
16
"Myself: fuck, what are we doing
17
"Vj: Yeah, he told me some time ago he was trying to
18
19
20
quit, but SR made it kinda tough

"Vj: So I've been doing sessions with him, giving him
someone to talk to
21
"Myself: do you think he can't make the trip?
22
"Vj: I dunno, I'm sure he's gonna run out of spending
23
24
25
money early, that's for sure.

"Vj: Now, his friend coming from Aus doesn't imbibe,
so I'm hoping he'll be a good influence.
(212) 805-0300
956
F1ldulb5
1
2
Kiernan - direct
"Vj: I'm just worried that it's not the kinda place
you wanna get caught trying to score H, or posessing it.
"Myself: what does he want to do?
"Vj: Oh, he's all gung ho to go, it's me that's
worried ;)
6
7
"Vj: We'll go ahead as planned, the situation was just

getting to me, so I'm spreading around the Dread
"Vj: so to speak ;)
"Myself: shoulda thought more carefully about dropping
10
$4k on an addict
11
12
"Myself: maybe our next prize will be 3 months in

rehab."
13
Mr. Kiernan, could you please flip to what's been
14
marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 251 in
15
your binder.
16
A. Yes.
17
(Pause)
18
OK.
19
Q. What was the name of this file?
20
A. Networthcalculator.ods.
21
Q. And what was the date of this file -- according to the
22
metadata, what was the date that this file was first saved on
23
the defendant's computer?
24
A. Umm, let's see. 6/17/2012.
25
Q. And what was the date that it was last edited?

(212) 805-0300
957
F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
A. 12/2/2012.
Q. What kind of file is this?
A. A spreadsheet.
4
5

251.
6
7
MR. DRATEL: Objection, your Honor. Vayner and

hearsay.
THE COURT: All right. There weren't any objections
noted in the Pretrial Order, but we'll talk about that at the
10
break.
11
GX251 is received.
12
13
THE COURT: The objections are overruled.
14
MR. HOWARD: So, Ms. Rosen, could you please zoom in
15
on the columns from here to the first black line.
16
Q. So the columns here, Mr. Kiernan, are "Date," "Liquid
17
Assets," "Hard Assets," "Total Debt," "Net Liquid," "Net
18
Worth," and "Notes," correct?
19
A. Correct.
20
Q. And here it says, "August 06." Net worth is listed at 821,
21
and "Notes" say "started at PSU," correct?
22
A. That's correct.
23
Q. And here we have May 07. The net worth is listed as
24
13809.78, with a note saying "Just before buying house,"
25
correct?
(212) 805-0300
958
F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
A. Correct.
Q. January 11 -- we'll skip one -- it says -- under the "Net
Worth" column, it is 29,539, and the note says "start as CEO of
Good Wagon."
A. That's correct, yes.
Q. April 2011, net worth is listed here under that column as
29948, and the notes column says "launch sr," correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Let's skip down all the way to September 11, this one. Net
10
worth -- under the net worth column, it says "100992." Notes
11
column says "hire syg and h7"?
12
A. That's right, yes.
13
Q. December 11, the first one, under the net worth column,
14
"238645," "fire syg"?
15
A. Correct.
16
Q. Jan 12, under the net worth column, it says 68647, and the
17
notes say "bitcoin theft," correct?
18
19
Q. And in June 2012, or June-12, under the net worth column,
20
it says "14238400"?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q. And what was the date that this file was last saved?
23
A. 12/2/2012.
24
MR. HOWARD: Could you zoom out, please.
25
And now zoom into this column right here in the light
(212) 805-0300
959
F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
blue.
Q. The columns are titled "Hard assets inventory" and "value
(USD)," correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And the first row says "sr inc" under "Hard assets
inventory," correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the number under the value column listed next to
"sr inc"?
10
A. 104 million.
11
Q. The next one down here says "Samsung 700z?
12
A. Correct.
13
Q. And the value is listed as $800, right?
14
A. That's right, yes.
15
Q. What was the model and brand of the defendant's laptop?
16
A. Samsung 700z.
17
Q. And down here there is a section entitled "Bitcoins,"
18
correct?
19
A. Correct.
20
Q. And there seems to be a number of entries under there with
21
various values, correct?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. And, Mr. Kiernan, what was the title of this spreadsheet?
24
A. "Networthcalculator.ods."
25
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could we just go back to the

(212) 805-0300
960
F1ldulb5
Kiernan - direct
left side real fast.
Q. So here you see this one, September 11. The reference says
"hire syg and H7," correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In your review of the Tor chat logs, did you find a Tor
chat with a user identified as H7 around September 2011?
A. Yes, I did.
8
9

Government Exhibit 224, which is already in evidence, and zoom
10
in, please.
11
Q. Mr. Kiernan, this is an excerpt taken from an 88-page log
12
file, is that correct?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. And the first excerpt starts on September 30, 2011,
15
correct?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. It says: "[Logging started]
18
"H7: Hi, I wanted to let you know whats going on
19
before the weekend. Ive got a SRM instance running on my end. I
20
have created a revised SQL search query, now i need to change
21
it to the Active Record Class used on the site.
22
"Myself: great, glad you are up and running and
23
starting to make progress. When do you think you'll have the
24
new search function ready for me to test?
25
"H7: soon
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
"H7: if i do any work over the weekend ill let you

know, but probably monday or tuesday
"Myself: ok, that doesn't tell me much :P I'm not
trying to put pressure on you or anything, it just helps me to
know.
"Myself: that sounds good
"Myself: have a great weekend. I've got another little
project for you after the search is done before you start the
security audit, so message me Monday or Tuesday when it's
10
complete.
11
12
13
"H7: thanks, ill talk to you then. have a nice weekend

:-)."
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(212) 805-0300
962
F1LGULB6
Kiernan - direct
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q. The next part is October 3, 2011, is that correct?
A. Yes.
MR. HOWARD: "h7: Hi, i've written a new search
function. Im pretty happy about it, although it does contain
one "work around."
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
H7: the only changes are in controllers/silkroad.php

search_results function.
H7: what format do you want it in?
Myself: just send me your version of
controllers/silkroad.php
Myself: I'll let you know if I have any trouble with
it, or questions. Are you ready for your next challenge?
14
H7: yes, whats next?
15
Myself: We've been having issues with users getting
16
their accounts hacked. I think the main issue is from sites
17
pretending to be Silk Road and stealing the user's login info.
18
Myself: Can you look at the login functions and see if
19
you can come up with a way to mitigate this problem?"
20
Q. Mr. Kiernan, the next excerpt starts October 21, 2011, is
21
that correct?
22
A. That's correct.
23
MR. HOWARD: "H7: Silk Road, i would like to take next
24
week off. I have to take care of some other projects and i
25
figure you are busy with this outage anyways. The git repo
(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB6
1
should not take long after i get back.
2
3
Kiernan - direct
Myself: ok, hopefully I won't be busy next week like

I've been busy this week. How much did you work this week?
H7: 35 hours
H7: Ive got the notes on cleaning the code for thrid
pary audit if you want it now.
Myself: sure, send it over. I'll see you on the 31st
then?"
Q. And the next excerpt starts from the same chat log,
10
correct?
11
12
Q. October 30, 2011, is that right?
13
A. That is correct.
14
MR. HOWARD: "H7: How was your week?
15
Myself: not bad. I will be travelling soon, so I have
16
much to do before I go and I didn't get as much as I wanted,
17
but this week I will focus on getting out of town.
18
H7: Ok."
19
THE COURT: I think you left out the word "done."
20
MR. HOWARD: Pardon me. "Myself: Not bad. I will be
21
traveling soon, so I have much to do before I go and I didn't
22
get as much done as I wanted, but this week I will focus on
23
getting out of town.
24
H7: Okay."
25
Thank you, your Honor.

(212) 805-0300
964
F1LGULB6
1
2
Kiernan - direct
THE COURT: When we are done with this one, let's take
our afternoon break.
MR. HOWARD: Sure.
"H7: Is it just you over there?
Myself: I have people to take care of, but I'll be
travelling alone. is that what you mean?
7
8
H7: No, When you leave town will anyone be looking

after the servers?
Myself: oh, yes indeed
10
11
H7: Because i see "The Silk Road Staff" written in

messages, but i dont know if its just you or not.
12
Myself: it's basically just me, but more and more I am
13
trying to spread the responsibility around. You are a big part
14
of that.;)" Emoticon.
15
16
Did you want me to stop in the middle or should I

finish the exhibit?
17
18
THE COURT: You can finish the exhibit and then we'll
take our break.
19
20
Q. Mr. Kiernan, the next section starts on November 9, 2011,
21
correct?
22
A. Yes, it does.
23
Q. And this is page 27 of a total of 88 pages in this chat
24
log?
25
A. In this log, yes.

(212) 805-0300
965
F1LGULB6
1
Kiernan - direct
MR. HOWARD: "Myself: Okay, I want to give you a 50
percent raise to $1,500 per week. You're going to be managing
people and that always comes with extra headache so I want you
to be well compensated for it.
H7: Thank you.
Myself: Sure, thank you! So, we've received several
applicants already. They are sending their applications to the
username Silk Road HR on the main site. There is a link in the
footer now called "careers" that is directing them there.
10
11
Myself: I'll give you access to that account so you

can see who you want to bring in for a trial period.
12
H7: Okay.
13
Myself: We've talked about it before, but basically I
14
want you to create tasks that can be given a dollar value
15
corresponding to your estimate of the time they should take at
16
a rate of $25/hour. If a new person is giving you bad results,
17
or isn't communicating well, or for whatever reason they aren't
18
working out, gently let them go and block them out of the repo.
19
You'll probably want to figure out a good way of communicating
20
with your team, either through torchat, or the git site, or
21
whatever. You'll need to keep track of what your team members
22
have earned, and each week I'll send you the coins for you to
23
disburse. Try to keep it below $2,000 per week unless I let
24
you know that we can support more.
25
H7: Okay. Sounds good."

(212) 805-0300
966
F1LGULB6
Kiernan - direct
Q. Mr. Kiernan, the next excerpt starts on December 15, 2011,
correct?
A. That's correct.
MR. HOWARD: "Myself: By the way, I'm going to be
unavailable from about 4:00 a.m. UTC Friday to about the same
time on Sunday, so I'll send you your pay tomorrow.
H7: K, you forgot me last week.
And can you send 100USD to Silk Road HR for this weeks
9
10
11
bounties.
Myself: You are right, so sorry about that. Sending
$3,000 now for last week and this week.
12
H7: Why $3,000 for two week?
13
Myself: Aren't I paying you $1,500/WK?
14
H7: It was 2,000 a week last time you paid me.
15
Myself: Our sales were up a bit that week so I
16
thought I'd give you a bonus. The last rate we had talked
17
about was $1,500 a week, though.
18
H7: I recall you asked me to work full time on the
19
group development and the new server/hosting. Since then you
20
have told me to focus on group development. Was I supposed to
21
revert to part-time.
22
Myself: No.
23
Yeah, I guess you are right, sorry my memory isn't
24
25
serving me right now."

THE COURT: All right. Is this a good time for a
(212) 805-0300
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F1LGULB6
1
Kiernan - direct
break?
MR. HOWARD: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, let's take our
afternoon break. I want to remind you not to talk to each
other or anybody else about this case. Thank you.
(Jury excused)
(Witness temporarily excused)
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(212) 805-0300
968
F1LGULB6
Kiernan - direct
(In open court; jury not present)
THE COURT: Let's all be seated. One request that we
had gotten from the jury was that they wanted some magazines to
read while they were just spending time in the jury room.
MR. DRATEL: Not during the testimony.
THE COURT: Not during the testimony. I have had
four, five just random magazines picked up in which I do not
believe there are any articles or reporting on Silk Road. They
are Vanity Fair, New York Magazine, Sports Illustrated, the NFL
10
Sports Illustrated and Vogue, and they're all from the current
11
newsstand.
12
If you folks would like to look at them and assure
13
yourself that there is nothing in here that you object to in
14
terms of them just being used as sort of doctor-room, dentist's
15
office reading.
16
MR. DRATEL: Did the Court look through them already?
17
THE COURT: We looked through them. I personally have
18
not. That's why I'm offering them to you folks to look at
19
them.
20
MR. DRATEL: It's New York Magazine, right?
21
THE COURT: I believe it's New York Magazine. I
22
encourage you folks to take a quick look to ensure yourselves
23
there's no problem and then we'll put them in there. There's
24
no rush. If anybody finds any articles on this case, please
25
let me know. I don't intend to be turning over anything that

(212) 805-0300
969
F1LGULB6
Kiernan - direct
requires the jury to themselves avert their eyes, but that's
the only issue that I had on that one.
We had a couple of documents that were objected to:
GX 242, GX 250, 251 and 255. And as to those, for the Silk
Road expense report, there had been no objection lodged. You
had said, I believe, Mr. Dratel, Vayner and some of the other
objections and hearsay.
MR. DRATEL: I'm not quite sure why we missed that
one, but yes, in the same character in terms of some of the
10
other documents.
11
THE COURT: I'm not holding you to a waiver.
12
Would the government like to respond in terms of 250?
13
14
Mr. Howard.
MR. HOWARD: This document was recovered from the
15
defendant's computer. We had the testimony from the computer
16
scientist. I think it's properly authenticated under Vayner.
17
THE COURT: The Court agrees. And in terms of
18
hearsay, there's either the information is not there for the
19
truth or to the extent it is, it would be an admission subject
20
to connection by a preponderance of the evidence.
21
22
Exhibit 251 is the net worth calculator spreadsheet.

I believe that your objections were the same for 251.
23
MR. DRATEL: That's correct.
24
THE COURT: And the Court's rationale for that is the
25
same as well.
(212) 805-0300
970
F1LGULB6
1
Kiernan - direct
For 255, that was the weekly to-do list and the only
objection there was hearsay. I don't believe that that was
offered for the truth.
Mr. Howard.
MR. HOWARD: That's correct, your Honor.
THE COURT: So it doesn't fall within the hearsay
7
8
rules.
And 242 was the weekly report. That similarly had a
Vayner issue. We have talked about that. I do believe that
10
the Vayner issues had been eliminated by the foundation, and
11
then in terms of hearsay, it's not offered for the truth. Am I
12
correct, Mr. Howard?
13
14
THE COURT: That's the bases for those rulings. Now,
15
we do need to talk about, as I said I would do, not this
16
morning but at another break, the striking of the testimony
17
that I had said I would strike.
18
I wanted to elicit from you folks, if you want to make
19
any suggestions, your views as to how that should be done. I
20
have previewed what the Court was suggesting was its thoughts
21
on that, which was to give a generalized instruction.
22
You'll note that the testimony that has been struck
23
has now gone up on ECF as an order of the Court. It should
24
have been posted. So the court reporters should strike and
25
will make sure that they strike the portions which are referred
(212) 805-0300
971
F1LGULB6
Kiernan - direct
to in the shaded portions of today's ECF filing related
thereto, and we'll make sure that it's absolutely clear.
But in terms of instructing the jury, Mr. Turner.
MR. TURNER: I drafted something for your Honor's
consideration. It's fairly simple.
You heard testimony while Special Agent Der-Yeghiayan
was on the stand concerning his personal beliefs or suspicions
about particular individuals at various points during his
investigation. I instruct you that what the agent believed or
10
suspected at any particular time, whether about the defendant
11
or others, is not evidence, and you are to disregard any such
12
testimony.
13
14
15
THE COURT: Can you repeat that. Pick up with

"personal beliefs and suspicions."
MR. TURNER: Sure. Personal beliefs or suspicions
16
about particular individuals at various points during the
17
investigation I instruct you that what the agent believed or
18
suspected at any particular time, whether about the defendant
19
or others, is not evidence, and you are to disregard any such
20
testimony.
21
THE COURT: Mr. Dratel.
22
MR. DRATEL: Yes. One is, I don't think it was
23
mentioned, the defendant. The witness said nothing about any
24
suspicions about the defendant. That's highlighting something
25
that wasn't in the testimony. So I don't think you should say

(212) 805-0300
972
F1LGULB6
1
2
3
Kiernan - direct
about the defendant because he didn't talk about that.

THE COURT: I actually think it was more helpful to
have it about it the defendant.
MR. TURNER: That's how it was intended.
MR. DRATEL: But it makes it seem like he somehow
suspected the defendant and they're supposed to ignore that,
but he never testified about that.
THE COURT: Fine. If you want it out, that's fine.
MR. DRATEL: Yes. And after that first sentence it's
10
sufficient. The personal beliefs and suspicions about other
11
people, that testimony should be ignored. You don't need to
12
repeat it. It should be streamlined.
13
THE COURT: I also intend to say, so that the jury is
14
not confused, I'm going to actually give the entirety. I don't
15
think that it's very long. It's going to take seconds: As to
16
other testimony from Mr. Der-Yeghiayan, you may consider it
17
during your deliberations and give it the weight that you
18
believe it deserves.
19
I don't want there to be any confusion and somehow
20
have the jury misunderstand that we're only striking a piece
21
and not all.
22
MR. DRATEL: Could you just add to that the
23
usual -- consistent with my general instructions at the end of
24
the case about credibility?
25
THE COURT: Yes.

(212) 805-0300
973
F1LGULB6
Kiernan - direct
MR. DRATEL: So that it doesn't --
THE COURT: I'll say consistent with all my
instructions at the end of the case.
MR. DRATEL: Right.
THE COURT: I'm not going to pull out one instruction.
I will give that instruction, all right --
MR. TURNER: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: -- when they come back as a housekeeping
9
10
11
matter.
Is there anything else that we should go over before
we take our own brief break?
12
MR. HOWARD: Not from the government.
13
MR. DRATEL: No, your Honor.
14
THE COURT: Thank you. Let's take our own break.
15
(Recess)
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(212) 805-0300
974
F1LGULB6
Kiernan - direct
THE COURT: I had one housekeeping matter that I
wanted to go over with you folks. You heard testimony while
Mr. Der-Yeghiayan was on the stand regarding personal beliefs
or suspicions he may have had about particular individuals at
various points during his investigation. And I instruct you
that what the agent suspected about others isn't evidence and
should be disregarded.
Now, consistent with all of the instructions I'm going
10
to give you at the end of the case, there was other testimony
11
that Mr. Der-Yeghiayan provided which you may consider during
12
your deliberations and give it the weight that you deem that it
13
deserves. So it's the suspicions, all right? Thanks.
14
Mr. Howard, you may go ahead and proceed, sir.
15
16
THE COURT: I realize sometimes I have to think about
17
how what I'm saying reads in the transcript. When I use the
18
word "suspicions," I meant it's the suspicions that should be
19
disregarded. I hadn't finished that last sentence. Thank you.
20
Mr. Howard, you may proceed.
21
MR. HOWARD: Thank you.
22
Q. Mr. Kiernan, in your review of the defendant's laptop, did
23
you have files with reference to computer servers?
24
A. I did, yes.
25
Q. What is a computer server?

(212) 805-0300
975
F1LGULB6
Kiernan - direct
A. It's a machine that will actually host or run a website or
a database, something to that effect. It's the place that you
connect to when you actually go to the site, like Google has
servers behind it. When you go to Google's website, there's a
machine behind it that's actually producing the answers for
you. That's what a server basically does.
Q. How are computer servers identified on the Internet?
A. Through an IP address.
Q. What is an IP address?
10
A. An IP address is a numeric number used to actually get to a
11
computer, kind of like a phone number, how you call somebody on
12
your phone. It's a unique number associated with the server or
13
any computer any time you're on a computer, and it allows you
14
to actually get to that destination point.
15
Q. Mr. Kiernan, can you please flip to what has been marked
16
for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 264, please.
17
A. Sure. Okay.
18
19
A. I do.
20
Q. And what is it?
21
A. It's a file extracted from the defendant's computer.
22
Q. And what was the name of the file?
23
A. Servers.ODS.
24
Q. And what is an ODS file?
25
A. It's a -- this is a spreadsheet.

(212) 805-0300
976
F1LGULB6
Kiernan - direct
Q. And according to the meta data, what was the date this file
was first saved on the defendant's computer?
A. 3/24/2013.
4
5

Exhibit 264 into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: Just the hearsay and Vayner.
THE COURT: Those objections are overruled and GX 264
is received.
10
11
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can you please publish the
12
zoomed-in highlighted version of this chart, please. Why don't
13
we look at the column titles, please. Let's try part of it at
14
the top.
15
Q. So here we have the columns are alias, type, host,
16
email/user, host, pass, username, pass, IP address, correct?
17
18
Q. And the IP address what you just testified about being a
19
unique way that servers are identified on the Internet?
20
A. How they communicate on the Internet, yes.
21
22
23
MR. HOWARD: I've been advised the team is working on

getting a clearer version up.
THE COURT: Thank you. That or you may want to hand
24
around a piece of paper to the jury so they can actually see it
25
because I don't think that it's legible on the screen.

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Kiernan - direct
Q. For the record, the highlighting, that's been added by the
government.
The file and the computer, Mr. Kiernan, did not
contain any highlights, correct?
A. No highlights, no.
6
7
8
9
10
MR. HOWARD: I'm going to get a copy to pass around to

the jury, if that's okay.
THE COURT: Yes. Do you want to maybe go on and come
back to this or does this fit right where you are now?
MR. TURNER: I think it takes a second to autofocus.
11
We should have it.
12
Q. Mr. Kiernan, are you able to read the titles of the columns
13
in the version that's in front of you?
14
A. Yes, I can see them in this version right here.
15
THE COURT: Could you pull down this for a second so I
16
can just see. He was referring to some columns before in the
17
dark. I see. Okay.
18
THE WITNESS: That's nice.
19
Q. The columns are alias, type, host, email/user, host pass,
20
username, pass, IP address, correct, Mr. Kiernan?
21
A. That's correct.
22
Q. And the IP address, as what you testified, is the unique
23
way that servers are identified on the Internet, correct?
24
A. That's correct, yes.
25
Q. And the other is the remaining columns are location,

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Kiernan - direct
expires, use, notes and there are some additional columns
further down the page, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, to draw your attention to a couple that the government
has highlighted. There's one here that you can see, what is
the alias of this server I'm pointing to?
A. Bora.
Q. And what is the IP address that's listed for that server?
A. It's 193.107.86.49-53.
10
Q. And what -- does the chart describe the location of the
11
server?
12
A. Iceland.
13
Q. And what does it describe about the use of the server?
14
A. Market back end.
15
Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the other rows
16
highlighted here labeled "gala" under the alias.
17
A. Yes.
18
Q. What does it reflect about the IP address for this server?
19
A. 207.106.6.25.
20
Q. And what does it say about the host for the server?
21
A. Jtan.com.
22
Q. And what does it list as the email/user of this server?
23
A. Ggb.
24
Q. What does it list about the location of the server?
25
A. USA.
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
Q. And what does it describe about the use of the server?
A. Backup.
Q. I just want to draw your attention to one more row that's
not highlighted, this one right here, there's Bora and then
there's one that says BTC, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And there's an IP address?
A. Sure.
Q. What is the IP address?
10
A. 193.107.86.34.
11
Q. Where is that located?
12
A. Iceland.
13
Q. What is the described use for that server?
14
A. Live wallets, and then in parenthesis, archive wallets.
15
Q. Now, Mr. Kiernan, what is listed on the very next line as
16
the use of the following server? We haven't talked about this
17
server, but what is listed in the "use" column?
18
A. I'm sorry. For which?
19
Q. It's this one -- you just said live wallets?
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. What is the use of the following server?
22
A. Oh, the one after it?
23
Q. Yes.
24
A. The 178 -- that's smed has.
25
Q. In your review of Tor chats recovered from the defendant's

(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
computer, did you find any references to smed?
A. I did; yes.
evidence.
Q. And this chat is dated May 4, 2012, correct?
A. Yes.
8
9
MR. HOWARD: "Myself: can I get your thoughts on

something?
10
Smed: always
11
Smed: i am your slave :)
12
Myself: vm isolation vs. seperate physical machines
13
vs. jails, permissions, etc.
14
Smed: yeah
15
Smed: interesting stuff
16
Smed: the more moving parts you have, the more doors
17
you have to protect
18
Myself: "attack surface" yea?
19
Smed: yeah
20
Smed: i have been staring at the ceiling a lot over
21
22
this project and how to go about it

Myself: lots of ins and outs, lots of what have yous,
23
lots of strands in the 'ol duder
24
Myself: shead
25
Smed: i think a medium footprint is best.. it's

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impossible to be small.. you just cant do it. all paths lead
down to the same road.. you will have 1 or 2 servers under
constant attack by people you dont want getting in
Smed: so my job, as I see it, is to make sure that
when they do get in that you can get back up and running with
minimal damage
7
8
Smed: for example.. moving btc to cold storage offline

as soon as daily funding estimates are reached
Myself: prevent, detect, redeploy
10
Smed: yes!
11
Myself: patch
12
Myself: and on and on
13
Smed: yeah, exactly"
14
Just leave us on this page for a second.
15
Q. Mr. Kiernan, in the first line it says by smed, "For
16
example, moving BTC to cold storage offline as soon as daily
17
funding estimates are reached."
18
Do you see that?
19
A. I do. Yes.
20
Q. Do you have familiarity with bitcoin transactions?
21
A. I do.
22
Q. Do you have familiarity with what cold storage refers to in
23
the context of bitcoins?
24
MR. DRATEL: Object; foundation.
25
THE COURT: Why don't you build more foundation for

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Kiernan - direct
that before he answers, before he answers that last question,
all right?
MR. HOWARD: Sure.
THE COURT: In connection with his work how has he
encountered cold storage, etc.
MR. HOWARD: Yes.
Q. In connection with your work as a computer scientist at the
FBI, have you had experience with bitcoin wallet files?
A. Yes, I have.
10
Q. Have you had experience in dealing with bitcoin wallet
11
files on computers you've examined?
12
A. Yes.
13
Q. Are you familiar with how bitcoins are stored?
14
A. I am.
15
Q. Are you familiar with terminology used to refer to various
16
bitcoin wallets and where they are stored?
17
A. Yes.
18
THE COURT: Go ahead.
19
Q. So do you -- are you familiar with what the phrase cold
20
storage means in reference to bitcoins?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q. And what does it refer to?
23
A. Sure. So when you're running a bitcoin wallet, you have
24
a -- it's a live, working device, not device but software.
25
It's -- what you do is, when you take your wallet from the live
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
working machine, basically you move it offline; you take it and
copy it someplace else so the computer doesn't have access to
it, others don't have access to it and the wallet is basically
in a cold storage state. You can't make changes to it at that
point.
THE COURT: You move the wallet off the computer?
THE WITNESS: You can. You just move it to a place
that it's not working in that program anymore. So it's not
accessible to the actual coins, to the actual program running.
10
THE COURT: I see.
11
You may continue.
12
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, would you please publish
13
14
evidence.
15
Q. And this chat is dated May 4, 2012. Is that correct?
16
A. Yes. Sorry.
17
18
MR. HOWARD: "Smed: i should be pushing you some code

tonight or tomrrow
19
20
Smed: i'm up against multiple deadlines due to travel

schedule
21
Myself: stress!
22
Smed: :)
23
Smed: i'm going to finish mods to your login function
24
25
hopefully tonight
Myself: hey smed, run into some trouble with the code
(212) 805-0300
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1
Kiernan - direct
you mentioned yesterday?
Smed: what code did you have problems with?
Myself: none, just wondering if you had trouble since
you said you'd push me some by now, but it sounds like you are
just busy getting out of town
Smed: actually.. i should have something in a bit"
(Pause)
MR. HOWARD: I'm sorry. I didn't realize it was done.
10
Exhibit 231C, which has already been admitted into evidence.
11
Q. This chat begins on May 15, 2012, is that correct,
12
Mr. Kiernan?
13
A. Yes.
14
MR. HOWARD: "Myself: hey, got a minute?
15
Smed: always
16
Myself: thanks, just wanted to check in with you. can
17
you give me a quick rundown of where we've been, where we are,
18
where we are going in the development process? I'm getting a
19
bit disoriented as new things have come up since we began and I
20
don't have anything tangible to orient around.
21
Smed: Sorry about that. My bad completely
22
Myself: no worries, we don't exactly have the most
23
24
25
freedom communication wise

Smed: exactly!! I'm glad you see it.. Normally, my
development process is quite open. The nature of the firewall
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
between you and the rest of the world has left a large gap in
my normal way of doing things and my habits have not been
suffificently corrected to make that extra step
Smed: Where we are..
Smed: We have a fully functional "escrow management
system" in it's most raw form
7
8
Smed: it moves BTC between users, in both roles as

shoppers and merchants
9
10
Smed: admin/overlord role has the power to do anything

it wants as far as approving or rejecting transactions
11
Smed: this 'system' in it's current form is going
12
through some fine tooth comb work right now to ensure that
13
nothing has been missed when it comes to decimal places,
14
confirmations etc
15
16
Smed: existing test results have shown a high degree

of accuracy in reguards to all transactions
17
Smed: i have not yet been able to cheat the system,
18
however those final tests (trying to cheat) have not been
19
marked as complete yet because we have not let cimon loose on
20
it ;)
21
Smed: That side of the project is Team 1
22
Smed: Team 2 is working on the more public side of the
23
shopping system
24
Smed: the vendor management piece
25
Smed: I have had several set backs and delays in the

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vendor part and that side was behind for about 3 weeks due to
the moron factor
3
4
Smed: however, team 2 came through last week with part

2 of 3
Smed: really where i'm at is this..
Smed: I have replaced your entire foundation.. i
probably have a little bit more efficient approach only because
hindsight is 20/20
9
10
Myself: always good to get a fresh set of eyes on a

problem
11
Smed: exactly
12
Smed: from what I have seen.. if you did it right now
13
i dont think you would change much from what i'm doing
14
15
16
17
Smed: i've focused a lot on abstraction of the

concepts
Smed: making each one of them a bit more accessable
individually
18
Smed: but the concepts are yours either way
19
Myself: well, I'm not one to hold your feet to the
20
fire on estimates, I know you are working hard, but are we
21
behind our intial estimate at this point?
22
Smed: I'm going to be testing the latest submission
23
tonight and tomorrow.. the order management stuff.. will know
24
more about that side afterwards
25
Smed: I am a little behind on part, but some of the

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1
Kiernan - direct
additional code work (ykey etc) will allow me to catch up
Myself: how does additional work equal catching up?
Smed: because i'm bringing in more people to help me
Myself: ahh
Smed: Just so it's said.. I have lots of motivation to
get this done to where I stay in your good graces"
Q. Would you flip to what has been marked as Government
Exhibit 254 in your binder for identification purposes.
A. Okay.
10
11
A. I do.
12
Q. What is it?
13
A. It's a file pulled from the defendant's laptop.
14
15
A. Interview_questions.txt.
16
Q. And what was the location of the file?
17
A. This was found in the
18
home/frosty/backup/reference/directory.
19
Q. And on what date was this file last saved on the
20
21
A. 6/5/2013.
22
Q. And when was it first created on the defendant's computer?
23
A. Also 6/5/2013.
24
25

Exhibit 254 into evidence.
(212) 805-0300
988
F1LGULB6
Kiernan - direct
MR. DRATEL: Prior objections, your Honor.
THE COURT: Those objections are overruled. GX 254 is
received.
MR. HOWARD: Zoom in on the top, Ms. Rosen.
Q. And I'm sorry, the name of the file was
interview_questions.txt, right?
A. Correct, yes.
MR. HOWARD: "What kind of computer did you use
10
laptop/desktop? What model and how old is it? What OS do you
11
use? Do you use whole disk encryption? Do you use a Tor
12
bridge? Do you use a VPN or proxy? Who in your life knows of
13
your involvement with Silk Road? Does anyone IRL know you are
14
a mod on the forums? Does anyone (IRL or here) know I've
15
offered you a promotion? How long will it take you to wrap up
16
your other responsibilities and begin training? Are there any
17
major situations in your life that might pull you away from
18
your responsibilities here on short notice (health, family,
19
etc.)? Do you have an income stream outside of SR? How do you
20
intend to launder your earnings?"
21
Q. Mr. Kiernan, could you please flip to what's been marked as
22
Government Exhibit 270 in your binder for identification
23
purposes.
24
A. Yes.
25
Q. And do you recognize this exhibit?

(212) 805-0300
989
F1LGULB6
Kiernan - direct
A. I do.
Q. And what is it?
A. Again, a file extracted from the defendant's laptop.
MR. DRATEL: Objection, your Honor. Withdrawn.
THE COURT: All right. Proceed, Mr. Howard.
Q. And what was the name of this file?
A. 1.text.
Q. Where was it located in the defendant's computer?
A. Sure. This was under the
10
home/frosty/documents/archive/documents/op/prof/sec/security/
11
Arto directory.
12
13

Exhibit 270.
14
MR. DRATEL: Same objections as prior.
15
THE COURT: All right. Those objection are overruled.
16
GX 270 is received.
17
18
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can you just zoom in on the
19
top section maybe down to about there. It starts "On Sep. 15,
20
2009, at 17:01, Ross Ulbricht wrote," and now there's a section
21
with the little caret signs:
22
"Dear Arto. Thank you for being open to my questions.
23
I don't want to bother you too much, but I find this topic
24
fascinating and very applicable. The impression I get is that
25
the technology is getting close but not quite there yet."

(212) 805-0300
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Q. What does the sections that is marked with the caret signs
in this document appear to be?
A. An email.
Q. And what does the section that is marked with these little
caret signs appear to be?
MR. DRATEL: Objection as to drawing conclusions.
THE COURT: Why don't you describe whether in your
experience in your job you've seen documents which have a
format similar to this.
10
THE WITNESS: Okay. Yes, I've seen emails or
11
documents with this type of format where it has the -- this
12
conversation split between basically a "from" and a "to," like
13
a thread of emails or a thread that keeps getting included on
14
your emails before.
15
This is based in a text file as opposed to a real
16
email would look like from your email clients, but it's the
17
appearance from that same type of format. So to me, it looks
18
like an email conversation and it's divided by the greater-than
19
signs.
20
Q. What does the greater sign portion refer to?
21
A. That would be the person -- that would be, in this case, it
22
would be what Ross Ulbricht wrote in his email.
23
24
25
MR. HOWARD: Now, Ms. Rosen, I just want to read only

the parts that have the carets by it.
"Dear Arto. Thank you for being open to my questions.
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I don't want to bother you too much but I find this topic
fascinating and very applicable. The impression I get is that
the technology is getting close but not quite there yet. What
do you think of Tor browsing and Tor hiding services? Is it as
anonymous as they say it is? The hidden services part sounds
interesting, but I have been unsuccessful in actually accessing
any of the existing ones yet including eCache."
8
9
Ms. Rosen, can you zoom in on the bottom part and

highlight the section with the carets, please.
10
"With Pecunix, I understand it is a goldbacked digital
11
currency. Can I anonymously and securely deposit funds? Can I
12
anonymously and securely withdraw funds in the form of fiat
13
currency or gold? I can see how it would work as a closed
14
system, but is there a way to integrate it with the rest of the
15
economy securely?
16
"I would love to be able to set up an online
17
storefront that couldn't be traced back to me (Tor hidden
18
services?) where my customers could buy my products (revealing
19
their identity only to me) and transferring funds to me
20
anonymously and securely (Pecunix?). I suppose this is the
21
ideal. What are the key pieces that are currently missing that
22
would make this a reality. Once again, I appreciate your
23
willingness to discuss these matters with me."
24
Q. Mr. Kiernan, would you please turn to what's been marked
25
for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 280 in your

(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
binder.
A. Okay.
A. I do.
Q. And what is that?
A. A file extracted from the defendant's computer.
A. This was found in the
home/frosty/backup/reference/directory.
10
11
A. XMPP.txt.
12
13

Exhibit 280.
14
15
MR. DRATEL: Hearsay and Vayner.
16
THE COURT: All right. Those objections are overruled
17
and GX 280 is received.
18
19
MR. HOWARD: "1. download and install pidgin."
20
And then there's a weblink to add Pidgin.
21
"2.10.7.exe"
22
2. close pidgin
23
3. download and install off-the-record (OTR)
24
4. start pidgin
25
5. enable OTR from the plugins menu

(212) 805-0300
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6. make sure Tor is running
7. create a new account
8. basic settings
8.a. protocol: XMPP
8.b. username: ***
8.c. domain: pi5mmj2ronhutyxv.onion
8.d. password: ***
9. advanced"
Some more instructions 9a through 10c.
10
11
"11. add the account. if it doesn't connect, double

check the socks port
12
Tor is listening on and change step 10.c. accordingly
13
13. add buddy "dread@pi5mmj2ronhutyxv.onion". if I'm
14
online we'll connect. There are a few more steps to finalize
15
OTR, but those can be done once we're chatting."
16
Ms. Rosen, can you please move this to the left-hand
17
side of the screen and publish Government Exhibit 127 on the
18
right side of the screen, which is already in evidence, which
19
is a forum post from the Dread Pirate Roberts -- sorry -- a
20
private message from the Dread Pirate Roberts. Can you focus
21
on actually on the instructions part, the text.
22
Q. Mr. Kiernan, how does the instructions that appear in the
23
private message from Dread Pirate Roberts on the right side
24
compare with the document you recovered from the defendant's
25
computer?
(212) 805-0300
994
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Kiernan - direct
A. They're identical except for the username and the password
fields on the right-hand side of the screen have been filled
in.
Q. Mr. Kiernan, can you please flip to what's been marked as
Government Exhibit 271 in your binder.
A. Okay.
A. I do.
Q. And what is it?
10
A. It's a file extracted from the defendant's computer.
11
Q. And what was the date that the file was last modified?
12
A. 8/21/2009.
13
Q. And what was the date that this file was saved to the
14
15
A. 5/8/2012.
16
Q. Is this the date that you described previously that there
17
were a lot of files that were saved on the computer on that
18
date?
19
A. Yes.
20
21

Exhibit 271.
22
MR. DRATEL: Same objections as previously.
23
24
25
overruled. GX 271 is received.

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995
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1
Kiernan - direct
THE COURT: "The construction and operation of
clandestine drug laboratories, second edition. Revised and
expanded, Jack B. Nimble." It says Jelly PDR version.
The second page, can we zoom in on the table of
contents. And I'm just going to read the section contents:
"Preface to second edition, the risks, security, scanners and
monitoring equipment, safety, location and facilities, when to
stop and how, glassware, heating, stirring and mixing, fume
hoods, miscellaneous equipment, scaling up, procurement of
10
suspicious items, tablets, capsules, and other packaging
11
materials, computers."
12
"Appendix one is more equipment; appendix two, watched
13
chemicals; appendix three, watched laboratory equipment;
14
appendix four, legitimate businesses that use laboratory
15
equipment; appendix five, common products and the valuable
16
chemicals they contain; and appendix six, recommended reading."
17
18
19
Ms. Rosen, can you flip through some of the pages.

Don't spend too much time with it.
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1
Kiernan - direct
MR. HOWARD: OK. Ms. Rosen, you can take it off.
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q. Mr. Kiernan, could you please flip to what has been marked
as Government Exhibit 272 in your binder.
A. OK.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what is it?
10
Q. And what is the date this file was last changed?
11
A. 9/21/2013.
12
Q. What does the metadata reflect about the date that the file
13
was first saved in the defendant's computer?
14
A. 9/24/2013.
15
16

272.
17
MR. DRATEL: The same objections, your Honor.
18
THE COURT: All right. GX272 is received. The
19
objections are overruled.
20
21
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, publish Government Exhibit
22
272. Let's zoom in on the text on the back.
23
24
25
"Silk Road proof September 20 DPR," and then a heart

symbol.
Ms. Rosen, you can take that down.
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Kiernan - direct
Q. Mr. Kiernan, could you please flip to what has been marked
as Government Exhibit 275 in your binder?
A. OK.
Q. Do you recognize what this exhibit is?
A. I do.
Q. What is it?
Q. What is the title of the file?
A. "Ops.txt."
10
Q. Where was the file located in the defendant's computer?
11
A. This was in the "home/frosty/backup/reference by me"
12
directory.
13
14

275.
15
MR. DRATEL: The same as before, your Honor.
16
17
overruled. Government Exhibit 275 is received.
18
19
MR. HOWARD: We'll publish this at a later time, your
20
21
Honor.
22
BY MR. HOWARD:
23
Q. Mr. Kiernan, could you please flip to what has been
24
premarked as Government Exhibits 290 and 291 in your binder.
25
A. 290 and 291, OK.

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Q. Do you recognize these exhibits?
A. I do.
A. Files extracted from the defendant's computer.
Q. And what is the name of Government Exhibit 290, the name of
the file?
A. 290, yes. "Dominica-economic-citizenship2011.pdf.
A. This was in the "home/frosty/backup/reference/
10
politics/Dominica" folder.
11
Q. And what is the title of Government Exhibit 291, the title
12
of the file?
13
A. Oh, "Disclosure form."
14
Q. And where was that located on the defendant's computer?
15
A. The location, file location was in "home/frosty/backup/
16
reference/politics/dominica" folder.
17
Q. Is that the same folder that Government Exhibit 291 was
18
found in?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. What are the dates -- what is the date that Government
21
Exhibit 291 was first saved to defendant's computer?
22
A. 5/1/2012.
23
Q. And how about Government Exhibit 291?
24
A. I'm sorry, that was 291.
25
Q. So to be clear, let's go to 291 -SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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A. I'm sorry, 291, yes.
Q. What date was that?
A. 5/8/2012.
Q. How about the other one, 290?
A. Sorry about that. 290, 5/8/2012.
6
7

290 and 291.
8
9
MR. DRATEL: Objection on 403, hearsay, Vayner, and

that is it.
10
THE COURT: All right. DXs -- sorry, Government
11
Exhibits 290 and 291 are received. The objections are
12
overruled.
13
14
(Government's Exhibits 290 and 291 received in

evidence)
15
MR. HOWARD: Thank, your Honor.
16
17
290.
18
Q. Mr. Kiernan, this is the first page of the document that is
19
depicted on the screen, correct?
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. Here it says "Commonwealth of Dominica Economic Citizenship
22
Program, Guide of Reference 2011."
23
24
25
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you add the highlights

to the document. Let's zoom in on the bottom here.
"Benefits of passport of the Commonwealth of Dominica.
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Kiernan - direct
Dominica recognizes dual citizenship, and you are not required
to renounce your other citizenships. Besides that, Dominica
does not notify authorities of your country of residence or
citizenship on your Dominican citizenship."
"Dominican citizenship is the most affordable option
and the one quicker to obtain. It requires a $75,000 U.S.
donation for a single option and $100,000 U.S. for a family
option, and normally takes 2 to 5 months."
9
10
Could we now publish 291, please? Zoom in on the top.

It's titled, "Disclosure Form - Individual."
11
Q. And, Mr. Kiernan, this was found in the same folder you
12
said as the guide that we just saw, correct?
13
A. Yes, the same folder.
14
15
16
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you zoom back out. Can
you zoom in on the name, this box here.
Last name Ulbricht, first name Ross, middle names
17
William. And then we have the beginning of a Social Security
18
number on the last line.
19
Could you go to the next page, please.
20
Zoom in on this additional personal information. OK.
21
Q. I'm not going to read all of this in, but we have fields
22
including date of birth, place of birth, names of family
23
members, and other identifiers; correct, Mr. Kiernan?
24
A. Correct.
25
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you slide down just a

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Kiernan - direct
little bit on that page.
Q. And here you see a cell phone number that's been redacted,
an email address, "rossulbricht@gmail.com," correct?
A. Correct.
MR. HOWARD: Zoom out, Ms. Rosen.
Down -- can we just zoom in on this bottom section,
please.
Q. "Residences: (List all residences) (other than your
current) you have had for the last 10 years."
10
One from 9/2009 to 5/16/2012. There is an Austin,
11
Texas reference. And then lower than that there is a July 2006
12
to September 2009 State College, Pennsylvania, reference.
13
Correct?
14
A. Correct.
15
MR. HOWARD: Can you go to the next page, Ms. Rosen.
16
Just keep on going. Can you zoom in on the "Education" section
17
here?
18
Q. "Education: "List all academic and trade schools
19
attended." I'm not going to read all of it, but
20
College/University, University of Texas at Dallas from August
21
2002 through May 2006, and then Pennsylvania State University
22
from July 2006 through September 2009.
23
At the bottom we have "List All Academic Degrees
24
Conferred." "BS Physics, UT Dallas, May 2006; M.S. Materials
25
Science, Penn State University May 2009."

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1
Kiernan - direct
On the next page, the columns are "Name of Employer,
Address of Employer, Position Held, Dates, Month and Year, and
reason for leaving."
And the first row is "Self (IT consulting)," and the
reason for leaving, it says "Current" there, right?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And what is the time period that he has been self-employed,
according to this column -- row, I'm sorry?
A. Sure. March 2011 to the present.
10
Q. And what is his previous employment listed as?
11
A. Good Wagon Books.
12
Q. What are the dates that are listed for his employment at
13
Good Wagon Books?
14
A. November of 2009 to May of 2011.
15
Q. And what is listed as the reason for living -- for leaving?
16
A. "Business was liquidated."
17
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you please move to the
18
last page of this exhibit. And then right here above the
19
signature line. Above it, please. Thank you.
20
Q. The last paragraph: "I authorize investigation of all
21
statements contained herein and the references and employers
22
listed above to give you any and all information concerning my
23
previous employment and any pertinent information they may
24
have, personal or otherwise, and release the company conducting
25
the investigation and the government of Dominica from all

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Kiernan - direct
liability for any damage that may result from utilization of
such information."
Mr. Kiernan, can you please flip in your binder to
what has been marked for identification purposes as Government
Exhibit 295.
A. OK.
A. I do.
Q. And what is it?
10
11
Q. And what date was this file first saved on the defendant's
12
computer, according to the metadata?
13
A. 5/8/2012.
14
15

295.
16
THE COURT: Any objection?
17
MR. DRATEL: Yes, your Honor. Hearsay and Vayner.
18
19
overruled, and Government Exhibit 295 is received.
20
21
BY MR. HOWARD:
22
Q. So, Mr. Kiernan, how many pages is this exhibit?
23
A. Two.
24
Q. And so what is depicted right here on the -- is this
25
another screenshot from FTK Imager?

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Kiernan - direct
A. Yes.
Q. And where was this file located?
A. This was in the "home/frosty/documents/archive/documents/op
prof sek/security/aliases/Richard Page" folder.
MR. HOWARD: Can you zoom out please, Ms. Rosen, and
can you zoom in on the top left-hand corner here.
Q. Is this an image showing -- another image showing the
directory structure of the defendant's computer?
A. Yes.
10
MR. HOWARD: And can you zoom in on this part,
11
Ms. Rosen.
12
Q. And so is the directory that you just referenced as to
13
where the file was located reflected in this?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. Can you just point it out?
16
A. Sure. The name of the folder is "Richard Page."
17
Q. That was in a folder called "Aliases," correct?
18
A. Correct.
19
Q. Which is, in turn, in a folder called "security," correct?
20
A. That's correct.
21
Q. What does the metadata of the document reflect about the
22
date that this file was first saved to the defendant's
23
computer?
24
A. 5/8/2012.
25
Q. Is that this reference right by the "Date Created" field?

(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
A. Yes.
Q. And earlier you testified that there were a lot of files
with that date on them?
A. Yes.
MR. HOWARD: Can you zoom out, please.
Q. What is contained on the bottom right-hand corner of this
exhibit? What does this part of the screenshot represent?
A. Oh, the contents of the file, what was in the file. It is
a viewer for that.
10
Q. So we have: "Name: Richard Page. DOB: 5/13/1977.
11
Married. Address, or "Addr:" 11640 Gary Street, Garden Grove,
12
California 92840, United States. Phone is 714-620-7320. PGP
13
pass phrase, and then a redacted area there.
14
Is there text in that section that is redacted?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. And down here we see the word KalyHost, AutoVPS, Silk Road,
17
staff@SilkRoad.org, correct?
18
A. Correct.
19
20
21
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can you please move this to

the left-hand part of the screen.
Could you publish Government Exhibit 150 on the
22
right-hand side, which has already been admitted into evidence,
23
which is the who.is information for silkroadmarket.org. Can
24
you just zoom in here.
25
Actually, a little higher, please. Right there.

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Kiernan - direct
Actually, you were in the right place. That is my fault.
And a little higher. Just a little bit.
Q. So here it says, "Domain history info for
silkroadmarket.org," right?
A. Correct.
MR. HOWARD: Could you scroll down, Ms. Rosen. Here
it says -- I'm sorry. Pause it for a second.
Q. "Old registrar information, March 12, 2011," correct?
A. Yes.
10
Q. Could you go down Ms. Rosen.
11
12
And this says -- can you focus on this little block

right here? Right here.
13
Here it says: "Registrant contact information. Name:
14
Richard Page. Address: 111640 Gary Street. City: Garden
15
Grove. State: California. Zip: 92840. Country: U.S.
16
Phone: +1.7146207320. And email: Richardpage@gawab.com.
17
Mr. Kiernan, how does the information on the who.is
18
lookup compare to the information on the file that was
19
recovered from the defendant's computer?
20
A. It's the same.
21
22
Government Exhibit 212, which has already been admitted into
23
evidence.
24
Q. Mr. Kiernan, what does Government Exhibit 212 depict?
25
A. 212 is the file structure of the defendant's laptop, of the

(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
"var/www/market" directory.
Q. Let me zoom in over here. Is this upper left-hand window
again the file structure of the defendant's computer?
A. Yes.
Q. And so you are talking about the var/www directory,
correct?
A. I am, yes.
Q. Is this one of the folders you are referring to?
A. Correct, that is one of the folders.
10
Q. So what is -- you have experience with Linux-based
11
computers, correct?
12
A. I do, yes.
13
Q. Approximately how many have you analyzed in the course of
14
your career?
15
A. Hundreds.
16
Q. So what kind of files are stored in var/www directory on a
17
computer running Linux?
18
A. Typically website files, Web server files.
19
Q. And what can such website files found on a laptop in this
20
kind of directory be used for?
21
A. For maybe backup there or to test out, to try --
22
MR. DRATEL: Objection. Objection.
23
THE COURT: Well, apart from this document, your
24
25
general experience, why don't you discuss that.

THE WITNESS: Sure. Usually that directory structure
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
on a Linux machine will house or hold Web files for the actual
Web server working. So for this you can run it to practice, to
test, to backup a website, or things like that would generally
appear in this file structure.
Q. Did you review the files in this directory?
A. I did.
Q. And did this directory contain files associated with any
website?
A. Yes, they did.
10
Q. And what website was that?
11
A. The Silk Road website.
12
Q. Mr. Kiernan, could you please flip in your binder to what's
13
been marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibits
14
268 and 269.
15
(Pause)
16
A. OK.
17
Q. And what are these exhibits?
18
A. These are files extracted from the defendant's laptop.
19
Q. And from what part of the laptop?
20
A. This was from the "var/www/market/public" directory.
21
Q. And you testified that this is a part of a Linux system in
22
which Web page files could be stored, correct?
23
A. Sure. Yeah.
24
Q. Did you take these screenshots?
25
A. I did, yes.
(212) 805-0300
1009
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1
2
Kiernan - direct
268 and 269.
MR. DRATEL: I am just going back to the page, your
Honor.
(Pause)
On Vayner, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. That objection is overruled.
Government Exhibits 268, 269 are received.
10
(Government's Exhibits 268, 269 received in evidence)
11
THE COURT: There wasn't an objection noted pretrial,
12
but we will go over that at the break.
13
14
Government Exhibit 268.
15
Q. So is this another screenshot from FTK Imager?
16
A. It is.
17
Q. And as with the other ones we've seen, is the contents of
18
the file contained in the bottom right-hand corner?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. What is the title of this file? What is it called?
21
A. This is called "closed.PHP."
22
Q. What does "php" mean?
23
A. It's a scripting file or files that can sit on a server
24
running php software. Basically, they are Web pages. That is
25
how they look on the machine hosting that website.

(212) 805-0300
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1
Kiernan - direct
MR. HOWARD: And, Ms. Rosen, can you zoom in on the
bottom right-hand corner.
Q. This is the one that contains the contents of the file,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And here it says, "Silk Road anonymous market."
Do you recognize what this is, what I am pointing to
on the screen?
A. Yes. That is the Silk Road logo.
10
Q. It says here: "Silk Road is down for maintenance. More
11
information can be found on the forum here," then a link,
12
correct?
13
A. Correct.
14
Q. And the link includes a dot-onion address, isn't that
15
correct?
16
A. That is correct.
17
18
Government Exhibit 269, please.
19
Q. Is this another file that was recovered from the part of
20
the computer used to store website files?
21
A. Yep. Ah, yes.
22
Q. And what was the names of this file?
23
A. This was "dpr_key.php."
24
Q. And this is also a website code -- it is a php file?
25
A. Right, it is a php file.

(212) 805-0300
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1
Kiernan - direct
MR. HOWARD: Could you zoom in on the bottom
right-hand corner of the screenshot, please.
Q. And this, again, this part of the FTK Imager shows the
contents of the file, correct?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. It says: "The following PGP key can be used to verify
messages signed by the Silk Road administrator Dread Pirate
Roberts. Begin PGP public key block," a bunch of text here and
then "End PGP public key block."
10
What is a PGP key, Mr. Kiernan?
11
A. It's a key to enable -- to verify or to enable people to
12
share documents back and forth. The keys basically lock the
13
message that's being shared. To actually read it, you share
14
your public key with other people so they can open or verify
15
things that you get from them.
16
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can you just move this to the
17
left-hand side of the screen and just focus on the actual
18
contents.
19
And on the right side, can we please publish
20
Government Exhibit 133, which is a screenshot taken by Special
21
Agent Der-Yeghiayan of the Silk Road website.
22
23
24
25
And can we zoom in on the text here. Above that,

please.
"The following PGP key can be used to verify messages
signed by the Silk Road administrator Dread Pirate Roberts.
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
Begin PGP public key block." A bunch of text. And "End PGP
public key block."
Q. Mr. Kiernan, how did this file on the defendant's laptop
compare to this page from the Silk Road website?
A. They were the same.
Q. Now, what kind of -- is this a public key or private key,
Mr. Kiernan?
A. These are public keys.
Q. Did you find in your analysis of the defendant's computer,
10
did you find a corresponding PGP private key?
11
A. I did, yes.
12
Q. Mr. Kiernan, would you please flip in your binder to what
13
has been marked for identification purposes to Government
14
Exhibit 296.
15
(Pause)
16
Do you recognize what this is?
17
A. Yes.
18
Q. And what is it?
19
A. This is the file extracted from the defendant's computer.
20
It's the Silk Road private key.
21
Q. How many pages is this exhibit?
22
A. Two.
23
Q. What is the second page of this exhibit?
24
A. The second page is when I imported that key into a
25
different program, a PGP -- a GPG program to get the statistics

(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
of that file.
Q. Mr. Kiernan, is that a screenshot that you took?
A. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, it is. Yes.
4
5

296.
MR. DRATEL: Objection. Vayner and hearsay.
overruled. GX296 is received.
10
BY MR. HOWARD:
11
Q. So, Mr. Kiernan, is this another screenshot taken from FTK
12
Imager?
13
A. It is, yes.
14
Q. What is the name of the directory that's depicted here on
15
the upper -- the files, what directory are they from?
16
A. The "Home/frosty/backup/keys" directory.
17
MR. HOWARD: And could you focus in on the top
18
right-hand window, Ms. Rosen.
19
Q. These are the files that are located in that directory?
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. And where did you find the corresponding private key for
22
the Dread Pirate Roberts?
23
A. In this directory.
24
Q. And which file was it?
25
A. SilkRoad.asc."
(212) 805-0300
1014
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1
Kiernan - direct
Q. Can we please flip to page second -- page 2 of the exhibit.
Can you explain what is depicted in this screenshot?
A. Yes. So this was the gpg software where I imported the
keys from that other public -- from that file, from the
defendant's laptop.
Q. What is gpg software?
A. It's software to trade -- not trade, but it's software used
to create keys, pass out keys. So when I sign my stuff, my
mails or my documents, I can give you the other key to actually
10
verify it is my stuff.
11
MR. HOWARD: And so can we zoom in on this window
12
here, Ms. Rosen, the whole window. If you could do the whole
13
window.
14
Q. And so what does this depict, Mr. Kiernan?
15
A. That depicts the opening of that ASC file that you saw
16
before, and it shows the name of the key, the Silk Road, the
17
email associated with the key, the staff@silkroadmarket.org.
18
And then if you go down, the date that the key was created.
19
And if you continue down, it says "key." And right next to it
20
it has "secret and public key" contained within that file.
21
Q. So what does "secret and public key" mean?
22
A. So I could build -- well, it contains both keys. I could
23
sign stuff and open stuff using this and verify stuff using
24
these keys.
25
Q. If this wasn't a private key, if this was a public key,

(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
what would it say there?
A. Just have the public -- "secret" would be off there.
Public key would be the only thing you could see there.
Q. What was the date this private key was created?
A. April 1st, 2011.
Q. And were you able to verify that this matched with the
public key?
A. I was able to extract the public key from it, yes.
Q. And did it correspond to the public key for the Dread
10
Pirate Roberts that you found on the Silk Road website and the
11
on the defendant's computer?
12
A. Yes.
13
THE COURT: Mr. Howard, you've got about eight minutes
14
left. All right? Just to give you a sense of timing.
15
MR. HOWARD: For the day, your Honor?
16
THE COURT: For the day.
17
MR. HOWARD: I think there would be a few more
18
questions, and then it would be an appropriate time for a
19
natural breaking point, if that works.
20
THE COURT: Absolutely, I want you to use the time or
21
for sure. I just wanted to give you a sense of what you've got
22
left.
23
24
BY MR. HOWARD:
25
Q. Mr. Kiernan, can you please flip in your binder at what has
(212) 805-0300
1016
F1ldulb7
Kiernan - direct
212A.
(Pause)
A. OK.
Q. How many pages is Government Exhibit 212A?
A. Three pages.
Q. Do you recognize what this exhibit is?
A. I do. Files extracted from the defendant's computer.
Q. And where on the computer were these files located?
10
A. These were in the var/www/market/application/views
11
directory.
12
Q. Is this part of the same var.www directory that you
13
described that was used to have Web page files?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. Did you take these screenshots?
16
A. I did, yes.
17
18

212A.
19
20
MR. DRATEL: Objection on Vayner and hearsay grounds,
21
22
23
your Honor.
overruled. Government Exhibit 212A is received.
24
25
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, could you please publish page

(212) 805-0300
1017
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Kiernan - direct
1.
Q. Are all the pages in this exhibit various screenshots of
files found within that directory used for website files?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the name of the file that's depicted on the first
page?
A. About.php.
Q. Could you focus on the bottom right-hand corner.
A. I can, yes.
10
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, why don't we just focus on
11
maybe the top of this. We will see it a little bigger.
12
Q. So, Mr. Kiernan, there is also -- there is this text here
13
that's inside little brackets.
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. What does that represent? What is that?
16
A. That's actually code within the file. It doesn't get
17
rendered correctly in this viewer.
18
Q. Are you familiar with that kind of code?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. Can you describe -- can you read or point to on the screen
21
if this file was loaded in a browser, what is the text that
22
would appear?
23
A. Sure.
24
Q. Read it, please.
25
A. "Greetings and welcome to Silk Road." That would be one of

(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
them. "I know you can't wait to get to the good stuff, but
please take a moment to read this message. It's been written
to help keep you safe," and things like that.
Q. That's enough.
Can we go to the second page of this exhibit. What
was this file called?
A. This was called "logo_hi-res.jpg."
Q. What kind of file is a JPG file?
A. An image file, a picture file.
10
Q. Was this also found in that same section of the defendant's
11
computer?
12
A. The same section, yes.
13
Q. Do you recognize the photograph that that file contains?
14
A. I do, yes. It's the Silk Road logo.
15
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can we flip to the last page
16
of this exhibit.
17
Q. What is the name of this Web page?
18
A. "Sellers_guide.php."
19
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can you zoom into the bottom
20
right-hand window.
21
Q. Again, this contains certain Web page code, correct?
22
A. Correct, it does.
23
Q. Could you please read the first two lines of what the text
24
would appear like and point to it on the screen if this was
25
loaded into a Web browser?

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A. Sure. "Sellers Guide. You and you alone will have your
client's shipping address" -- I'm sorry. Above that, it is
"Client Anonymity." Yes. Right there. "This information must
be destroyed as soon as it is used to label their package," and
so on.
Q. Now, if you read the next couple of lines.
A. Oh, sure.
8
9
"Never ask your clients for personal information.

Under no circumstance should you save a copy of your client's
10
address. Publish a public encryption key in your user
11
description on your settings page."
12
Sorry. All the way over here.
13
MR. HOWARD: Ms. Rosen, can you zoom out, please.
14
Can you zoom in on the upper right-hand window.
15
Q. And, Mr. Kiernan, what are all of these files that include
16
".php" at the end?
17
A. They are all Web page files.
18
Q. Here we have "Buyers_guide.php," "Category." We discussed
19
some already, like "DPR_key.php," correct?
20
A. Correct.
21
Q. Reviews.php?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. Support.php, user.php?
24
A. Yes.
25
Q. Write_review.php?
(212) 805-0300
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Kiernan - direct
A. Yes.
Q. These are all Web pages?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Kiernan, would you please flip in your binder to what's
212B.
A. 212B?
A. Yes.
10
11
12
Q. And did you take this screenshot of this file?
13
A. I did, yes.
14
15

212B.
16
17
MR. DRATEL: The same objections, hearsay and Vayner,
18
your Honor.
19
20
THE COURT: Those objections are overruled.

Government Exhibits 212A and B are received.
21
22
(Government's Exhibits 212A and 212B received in

evidence)
23
MR. HOWARD: Can you zoom in on the upper right-hand
24
corner.
25
Q. What was the name of this file, Mr. Kiernan?

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Kiernan - direct
A. This file was mastermind.php.
Q. Are you familiar with the "mastermind" page from the Silk
Road website, Mr. Kiernan?
A. I am.
Q. And when have you seen it before?
A. I've seen it when I was doing this laptop, looking at the
laptop, and when I was on the defendant's -- when I took the
pictures of the defendant's laptop.
Q. And who chooses the titles for Web page files?
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A. The designers of the website.

MR. HOWARD: Your Honor, this would be a natural
breaking point if you want to stop here.
THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we
will end for the day. We'll pick up tomorrow morning at 9:30.
I want to remind you not to talk to each other or
16
anybody else about this case. I want to remind you, also, to
17
avoid any news articles or media that may discuss this case in
18
any way. If you run across anything, avert your eyes. I
19
instruct you that you must do so.
20
And, also, I want to remind you not to try to go on
21
the Web and do any research on your own. It is very important
22
that the only evidence that is used to decide this case is the
23
evidence you receive in this room. So don't try to go off onto
24
Google and become an expert in Linux or anything else.
25
All right. Thank you. We are adjourned for the

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Kiernan - direct
evening. We'll pick up tomorrow morning.
THE CLERK: All rise as the jury leaves.
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(Jury not present)
THE COURT: Mr. Kiernan, we'll pick up at 9:30
tomorrow morning. So you can also step down. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
(Witness not present)
THE COURT: All right, ladies and gentlemen. Let's
7
8
9
10
all be seated for just one moment.

I just wanted to very quickly go through the exhibits
that had had objections as to which the prior rulings, I wanted
to be sure that we understood that they apply.
11
GX264 was received and the Court overruled the Vayner
12
objection for all of the reasons that we've already discussed,
13
and, indeed, that is the same for each of the electronic
14
documents, that this witness has authenticated them
15
appropriately.
16
And in terms of hearsay, these are not for the truth,
17
nor is 254 for the truth or 270, 275, 295, 280, 268, but I want
18
the government to make sure with 268 that that is right, that
19
you are not offering it for the truth. 269 not for the truth.
20
296 not for the truth. 212A and B not for the truth. There is
21
one of them, the Dominica Guide, 290 and 291, not for the
22
truth, 291 being the application.
23
272 was the photograph with the bags of what could be
24
whatever they are. That was objected to in the Pretrial Order
25
under 403. So the Court additionally had undertaken a 403

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F1ldulb7
1
analysis, and finds that given the charges in this case, that
evidence is both relevant but it is not unduly prejudicial.
Its probative value is not substantially outweighed by any
prejudicial effect. Certainly, at most, the inferences that
could be drawn are consistent with the charges in this case,
and it is no more serious than that. It also was properly
authenticated.
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9
10
11
Mr. Howard, were any of the documents which I had

mentioned things which the government had intended to offer for
the truth?
MR. HOWARD: Your Honor, to the extent that some of
12
them included statements of the defendant, we would seek to
13
admit them as party admissions.
14
THE COURT: All right. To the extent that there are
15
portions where it is not only by the -- allegedly by the
16
defendant subject to connection, but that it's for the truth
17
associated with the defendant, as opposed to associated and not
18
for the truth, then they would be party admissions in the same
19
manner that we previously discussed subject to connection.
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21
MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, just because it is on his
22
laptop doesn't mean it is a party admission. Everything on his
23
laptop is not by the defendant.
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25
THE COURT: Subject to connection. As we all know,

the subject to connection will be a finding by a preponderance
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of the evidence. That is what the evidentiary objections
require. And so when the government's case is in, we'll
determine whether or not ultimately all the "subject to
connection" statements have been met or not met, and we'll take
that up at that time.
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All right. Anything else that you folks wanted to

raise?
MR. DRATEL: Just one thing. I will wait for the
government first, just in case.
MR. HOWARD: Yes, your Honor. There is an additional
11
witness that we plan on calling tomorrow. It is a very short
12
witness. It is Special Agent Gregory Fine from the Federal
13
Bureau of Investigation.
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15
THE COURT: All right. And tell me why Mr. Fine is

coming in now and was not on your original list.
16
MR. HOWARD: Yes. Special Agent Fine is only going to
17
be testifying about the seizure of thumb drive devices from the
18
defendant's residence. The relevance of the files to the
19
government became more clear following what the defense
20
previewed in their opening statement. So he will be
21
authenticating the seizure of thumb drives.
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Mr. Kiernan tomorrow will testify about an analysis of

files that were recovered from that thumb drive.
THE COURT: All right. So he is simply to
authenticate the thumb drives?
(212) 805-0300
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MR. HOWARD: Yes.
THE COURT: That is really his entire purpose is to
say I was there, I got the thumb drives, do a chain of custody?
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dratel.
MR. DRATEL: Do we have all of the exhibits that they
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9
are going to put in? I want to make sure.

THE COURT: Do you have everything that you are going
to use with this fellow?
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MR. HOWARD: Yes. They are in the 200 series.
11
THE COURT: And they have already been turned over to
12
the defense?
13
MR. HOWARD: They have, your Honor.
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15
MR. DRATEL: OK.
16
THE COURT: Any 3500 material, I take it there
17
probability isn't any, but if there is, you have given it to
18
the defendant?
19
MR. HOWARD: Yes. We just need to verify that he
20
didn't send any emails that we can assert 3500. Based on his
21
role in the search, we doubt there is anything. We'll get that
22
immediately and promptly provide it to the defendant.
23
24
Mr. Dratel.
25
MR. DRATEL: Not 5,000 pages.

(212) 805-0300
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1
The only thing I wanted to add, your Honor, not about
that, but about some of the exhibits that came in -- I think
most of the exhibits that came in today through Mr. Kiernan
were different than the original ones that we had. I don't
mean different altogether, but in terms of how they were sent
to us. So, for example, many of them, in terms of the time
that we interposed objections, did not have metadata or a
different kind of presentation of metadata.
So I think that may be one of the reasons why there
10
may not be objections to some of them previously and there are
11
now. I'm not saying that is all of them, but I just wanted --
12
there are differences. We are getting the series of exhibits
13
as the government has posted them.
14
THE COURT: I have not found that you have waived
15
objections. I have been allowing you to put them on the
16
record, and we have been dealing with them.
17
If there are any other issues which you want to raise,
18
you can either raise them on cross-examination with this
19
witness if there are differences, or if there is anything that
20
you should bring to my attention, go ahead and bring it to my
21
attention either now or tomorrow morning about that.
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MR. DRATEL: It is just more about timing for that

particular issue.
THE COURT: All right. Anything further, folks, that
we should go over tonight? Otherwise we will meet tomorrow
(212) 805-0300
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1
morning at 9.
MR. HOWARD: Nothing from the government, your Honor.
MR. DRATEL: Nothing, your Honor. Thank you.
THE COURT: One thing I do want to encourage you
folks, because things have a way of coming up, as we know, if
we could be here close to 9, that would be helpful. Otherwise
we end up starting with ourselves at 9:20. We don't get the
jury out here until 9:40 or 9:45, today at 9:50. So let's just
give it a go.
10
All right. Thank you. We are adjourned.
11
THE CLERK: All rise.
12
(Adjourned to 9 a.m., Thursday, January 22, 2015)
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(212) 805-0300
1029
INDEX OF EXAMINATION
Examination of:
Page
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN
Redirect Mr. Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . . 802
Recross By Mr. Dratel . . . . . . . . . . . . 813
Redirect By Mr. Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 836
Recross By Mr. Dratel . . . . . . . . . . . . 839
THOMAS KIERNAN
Direct By Mr. Howard . . . . . . . . . . . . . 844
10
11
GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS
Exhibit No.
Received
12
149
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 802
13
151
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 805
14
128G
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 851
15
128H
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 853
16
200
17
201A
18
201B through G . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 863
19
500
20
200A
21
211 through 216
22
273
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 881
23
274
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 886
24
222
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 891
25
222B
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 855
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 860
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 873
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 875
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 879
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 894
(212) 805-0300
1030
222A, 223, 224, 225A-225B
. . . . . . . . . 897
226A-226I, 227A-227H, 228
. . . . . . . . . 897
229A-229E, 231A-231C, 232A-232E
240A-240D, 241 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 898
242
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 930
256
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 934
255
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 948
250
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 950
251
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 957
10
264
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 976
11
254
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 988
12
270
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 989
13
280
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 992
14
271
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 994
15
272
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 996
16
275
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 997
17
290 and 291
18
295
19
268, 269 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1009
20
296
21
212A
22
212A and 212B
. . . . . . 897
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 999
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1003
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1013
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1016
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1020
23
24
25
(212) 805-0300

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780

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

ROSS WILLIAM ULBRICHT,

New York, N.Y.

HON. KATHERINE B. FORREST,

Special Agent Vincent D'Agostino

(Trial resumed; jury not present)

THE COURT: Good morning to all of you.

The first thing I would like to do is to have you,

Mr. Dratel, while I am addressing a couple of other matters

gather up what I have been referring to as the AA posts that

you wanted to compare to the mises piece, the mises.org piece,

so I can just take a quick look at them. I have reviewed the

portion of the transcript yesterday, as I had told you I would,

early relating to that discussion. So I just want to take a

quick look and see whether or not we're able to do anything

MR. DRATEL: I'm not sure what the Court means in

evidentiary issue, and you wanted to use some mises posts of

some sort with the Silk Road forum.

MR. DRATEL: No, it is not the mises posts with the

THE COURT: Two different. One was a mises.org.

MR. DRATEL: It was not mises.org necessarily. It was

this witness' analysis, comparison of the writing that he

attributed to Anand Athavale and Dread Pirate Roberts' writing

THE COURT: Do you have -SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

MR. DRATEL: Yes. I can find it from the 3500 --

THE COURT: If you can. Because what I am wondering

is whether or not there is a way of doing something that is a

factual-based series of questions. In other words, in terms of

course of your investigation? Yes. And did they have the

following name associated with it? Or whatever they are. Did

you separately look at Y? And then you can draw -- he can't

assumptions, but you can, through argument, draw whatever

inferences you want to draw. This is the first issue. Yes.

But I need to see the stuff -- before I even know if that

works, I need to see the materials.

MR. DRATEL: Sure.

MR. TURNER: Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. TURNER: I don't think the defense has the actual

mises.org. The defense is referring to the defendant's own

THE COURT: I understand he has referred to it like

that. I'm trying to get underneath that and to see if there is

something factually that will work. So let me see what he's

but whether or not there is the data that he used to do the

comparison, this witness used to do the comparison, whether or

Yes. Did you compare it to this? Yes. That is something that

MR. TURNER: We would still be left with the

authentication issue, your Honor. This witness does not have

the necessary foundation to --

THE COURT: I believe that if he physically possessed

you do anything to determine other than the fact that you

printed these off the Internet. I mean, it is up to argument,

deal with some other issues first. OK?