Talk:Q210588

Merge umbrella term+hypernym

@Spritz Ab: you are too bold to merge them. Are you 100% sure? What to do with orphaned ar-link? Infovarius (talk) 21:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Difference between umbrella term and hypernym

An umbrella term and hypernym are two different things. They should not be merged. This being the case is suggested by the uses in which someone says "X is an umbrella term.", without relating X to something else; hypernym is a purely relational term. As a first approximation, an umbrella term is a broad term, encompassing disparate subcases. By contrast, a narrow term can still be a hypernym of even narrower term; thus, in WordNet, each term that is not a leaf in the hypernymy graph is a hypernym of another term. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:49, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Heading changed. I collected some links and examples of use at wikt:cs:umbrella term. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:24, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

An example: "house cat" is a hypernym of "tomcat" (male cat), but that does not make "house cat" am umbrella term. For another one, "blue" is a hypernym of "dark blue", but "blue" is not an umbrella term. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:36, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Interwiki to German Überbegriff

This page ("umbrella term") should not interwiki to W:de:Überbegriff since that redirects to W:de:Oberbegriff. And W:de:Oberbegriff says "Unter einem Oberbegriff, auch Überbegriff und in der Sprachwissenschaft Hyperonym (von altgriechisch ὑπέρ hypér ‚über‘ und ὄνυμα ónyma ‚Name‘),[1] versteht man einen Begriff, der eine Anzahl anderer Wörter in ihrer Bedeutung subsumiert bzw. benennend klassifiziert." That is not for "umbrella term" to interwiki to; it is for "hypernym" to interwiki to. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

@Dan Polansky, Infovarius: This redundancy was already discussed in dewiki. They were merged for being synonymous to each other. That's why we should keep the redirected interwiki sitelink. Plus simplewiki and enwiki redirect umbrella term to hyponymy and hypernymy (Q43201039). Xharey (talk) 19:51, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I explained at #Difference between umbrella term and hypernym that "umbrella term" and "hypernym" are not synonymous. The confusion results from German sometimes using Überbegriff as a synonym of "umbrella term" and failing to clearly differentiate the concept on term level; German dictionaries do not track two distinct concepts for "Überbegriff".

Keeping "umbrella term" interwikied to de:Überbegriff --> Oberbegriff solidifies the confusion; it should ideally be undone.

The actions taken in English and Simple English Wikipedia were lexicographically uninformed and wrong. --Dan Polansky (talk) 04:08, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

There's a reasoning in the enwiki redirect, also discussed in the past. Blanket term was also merged with umbrella term in the past.

If you think the prescriptive target is wrong, then it should be up to redirects for discussion instead. But the exact sitelink titles are precise. Xharey (talk) 21:08, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

As for Category:Redirects to related topics, we are discussing synonymy here, not related terms. There is no denying there is a certain relation between umbrella term and hypernym, which leads to the confusion.

While there is W:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Umbrella term, the supporters of the redirect there are wrong on the synonymy count, as are their sources that assert that "umbrella term" and "hypernyms" are synonyms or use them that way. As I am trying to explain here: #Difference between umbrella term and hypernym.

The idea that discussion on action to be taken in Wikidata should be discussed in the English Wikipedia instead makes no sense to me: this is Wikidata, not Wikipedia. Wikidata can maintain a conceptual separation where Wikipedia decides not to bother.

The matter is not helped by most dictionaries not having "umbrella term" defined. --Dan Polansky (talk) 05:42, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

"Blanket term" is not a synonym of "hypernym" either; it is not the same concept and therefore should not be the same Wikidata item. A careful analysis could reveal that "blanket term" is a synonym of "umbrella term", and in that case it would be an alias here, but certainly not in "hypernym" Wikidata item. --Dan Polansky (talk) 05:45, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

One may also add that Oberbegriff can be also understood as a relational noun referring to concept, not word or phrase, and in that sense, Oberbegriff is not synonymous to Hyperonym, which refers to word or phrase. --Dan Polansky (talk) 04:10, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

The fitting German translation for "umbrella term" seems to be "Sammelbegriff", from definitions and examples of use. The German Wikipedia article would be Kollektivum, https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollektivum, since Sammelbegriff is covered there; however, I am not convinced that Sammelbegriff is a synonym for Kollektivum.

From the observations and sources, my best conclusion is that 1) there is no good interwiki for German; 2) the best translations for the label is "Sammelbegriff". --Dan Polansky (talk) 04:21, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

More confusion is caused by German using the word "Begriff" to refer to concepts on one hand and to words and phrases on the other hand, failing to clearly demarcate this distinction on the word level. This follows from actual usage and from Duden, which marks the word-or-phrase usage as colloquial (umgangssprachlich). --Dan Polansky (talk) 04:26, 15 June 2023 (UTC)