User talk:JBradyK

Welcome to Wikidata, JBradyK!

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Best regards! --Epìdosis 19:20, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

occupant (P466) of Kapodistrias barracks (Q110630553)

Hello there mr JBK, I've been viewing your work on Wikidata the last few months (mostly because it happens to collide with some WLM entries). Great job btw, and for the ToposText site you maintain.
I've seen you added the Byzantine museum of Argolis (Q65952320) as occupant (P466) of Kapodistrias barracks (Q110630553), which isn't entirely wrong, but it can lead to confusion in my opinion, since the museum occupies only one of the three wings of the barracks. The other wings host various associations and municipal halls. I would add a qualified to mention it occupies a part of the item, but I'm not sure which fields are appropriate for that. What would you suggest?--Jimkats (talk) 14:32, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Greetings! Delighted you are working on the WLM sites. Have you been consulting the αρχαιολογικό κτηματολόγιο www.arxaiologikoktimatologio.gov.gr/ ? Hoping we can use more of that over time. I don't have a good answer for shared occupants, other than to create items for the other tenants and add them to the property. All best, JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 14:48, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

municipal units and human settlements

I just noticed that you changed the labels and descriptions of some suburbs of Athens and Thessaloniki making them like they are municipal units only. While most subrubs of those metropolitan areas are also municipalities/municipal units, it's preferable to keep the settlements and the administrative units apart (unlike other countries which have them as the same thing). One example is Cholargos (Q1247513), which had in the past a separate item for the respected municipal unit (which I now restored, and maybe the former municipality data will go there at some point) Cholargos Municipal Unit (Q21622117). Another example is Stavroupoli (Q1637062), which though doesn't/didn't have a separate item for the municipal unit (which is weird since someone in the past created items for almost all municipal units of Greece), so I didn't move them yet at another item, but changed the label and description to be more true to the main subject of the item.
I tell you the above, because changing the label of the settlement to its municipal unit, is confusing (for Greeks at least, because we know municipalities/mun. units are different from the settlements themselves). :d--Jimkats (talk) 20:46, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Jimkats, Sorry, and thanks for catching these. I have been drawing on the 2021 ELSTAT spreadsheet at https://www.statistics.gr/statistics/-/publication/SKA01/- and older ELSTAT tables to add English labels, coordinates (where missing), more precise P131 values, and P150 where possible.

In a recent batch I evidently failed to account for places where there was an ELSTAT municipal unit ID attached to a settlement. There are various cases where people have blended multiple past/present varieties of formal admin unit with city/island/etc., and the Athens area is particularly complicated due to pseudo-municipal units (with no actual existence, only placeholders to keep the hierarchy aligned, non-existent in Wikidata and probably best kept that way).

I will leave aside these complicated cases for now.

As you note, WD items exist for most municipal units. Most of these municipal units are direct successors of and sharing most properties with former Kapodistrian municipalities. Some have been combined, some not, just as most former prefectures are merged with regional units. There are theoretical reasons to separate the different phases of Greek bureaucratic reform, particularly pre and post-1997, but they aren't very compelling for the post-2011 changes (yet...?).

I would like there to be a full set of P131 and P150 links up and down the 8 hierarchical levels of ELSTAT, accurate for 2021. I think levels 2-5 just need a little cleaning up

(7 Decentralized Administrations; 13 regions; 71 regional units (ex-nomos); 309 Kallikrates/Kleisthenes1 municipalities)

Level 6 964 Municipal Units is mostly done except for the pseudo-units and some new/old municipality issues.

Level 7 6137 Communes (koinotites) remain to be done. Only 3593 items have a level 7 ELSTAT ID. They use P31 Q111904027 Commune (Greece) and/or local community Q490933 or municipal/local community (Greece) Q12876091, plus some random entity names. Not sure whether it's better to merge Commune and municipal/local community or to align communities with the very subtle and changing differences between them over time.

Level 8 12754 settlements (oikismoi) in 2021. I find 13356 Wikidata items with ELSTAT oikismos IDs.

It doesn't help that 2000 of the 13000 ELSTAT IDs for oikismoi have changed since 2011, due to various adjustments. I have created a translation table to the new values, but would welcome your thoughts on how best to update Wikidata (add a second P1116 value with "2021" for Q1264 Valid in Period [so as not to have to research 10 years of ELSTAT change logs]? All best, JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 07:27, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

@JBradyK So you do what I pretty much started doing aswell recently, that's awesome :P. If you manage to find the co-ordinates for the new settlements (2011 and afterwards), I would love to know because at most cases I can't find any evidence online of where those areas are (only the generic area), because I want to add them on OpenStreetMap aswell.

About communities (or communes as it's stated in ELSTAT even though it doesn't sound proper because I think in France they have those aswell, but work differently than in Greece), the local/municipal community would apply till 2019, when Kleisthenis I reform occured and unified them into a single term "community", so this one should be used. No matter that most people don't know about that change and they keep mentioning, even some municipalities do that, as "local communities"...

ELSTAT ids of course would change in some cases, especially in 2019 with the latest wave of new municipalities :P. Even though it would make sense to have those old IDs aswell, with of course stating the time period they are valid, I would put that on the lowest of priorities to do. I don't even know if they are being utilized anywhere besides few state services (and ELSTAT itself of course).

I didn't even know about valid in period (P1264). That's much better than putting start time and end time, like I did in the case of Didima (Q12212276), mentioning when it was seat of the pretty old Didima municipality (Q16329857) twice, so I added the value in capital of (P1376) twice. So yes, this could be used in what you asked last, as it seems the most logical thing to do. And don't forget the "obsolete rank" in those old IDs.

About pseudo-municipal units and pseudo-communes, of course we won't do anything for that in WikiData, because exactly as you said, they are placeholders for hierarchy alignment within some ELSTAT's databases, nothing more nothing less. No actual use or reference of those pseudos outside of those databases.

What exactly you want about the levels 2-5 cleanup? I have made some changes about the after-2011 municipalities, mainly the name-changes (and the respected start-end time), and also added the contains the administrative territorial entity (P150) values for few regions and few regional units.

In the end of all that, not to mention trying and find duplicate items, all automatically created because of some automatic addition in geonames, which seems to be imported via what Google Maps mentions as areas. Fortunatelly Maundwiki has helped as lot by merging those duplicate items. --Jimkats (talk) 15:10, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

coords of settlements

I have seen you have added several coordinates for settlements in Greece and I'm wondering how you found them. The reason I ask is because most of those settlements are officially shown in the census of 2011 for the first time (that's what eetaa.gr denotes because few times I noticed mistakes), and so there's no official dataset (at least in data.gov.gr) about their locations or in Google Maps or usually on the Internet any evidence of where those areas exactly are. If you have a source that is publicly available, that would help a lot (besides OpenStreetMap :P). Thank you in advance. Jimkats (talk) 18:19, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

A very good Greek cartographer shared with me (maybe five years ago) some data from ELSTAT including those coordinates. Not sure where it is public. Send me an email at topostext@gmail.com and I will share what I have... JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 18:47, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Is it this one? (extracted folder "oikismoi_2011" with year of last modification in 2016) Looks like that because it shows the location of a new settlement near Nea Epidavros I was looking for last year. And I rememebr after you replied that I've seen such source before but maybe I forgot to keep it. Thanks again :d --Jimkats (talk) 20:09, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I did download that file, and think its probably the source for my big spreadsheet.JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 14:47, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

items for archaeological sites/excavations

I see you several items for archaeological sites and excavations, all around Athens for now and few other places. To be fair, this sounds like an overkill if you do this for all of Greece, just like people did with every single recognized settlement of Greece :d. If you ever do the same for Argos, let me know, my hometown you see and at the same time I try to map and document several stuff for it that aren't known that much on the Internet.
We have a department of École française d'Athènes in Argos, which has an online platform of quite some excavation reports along with approximated locations (I have identified the exact location for some of them, others are completely off-point). I found that platform few weeks ago where I also read about those plaques (discovered in 2000 if I remember correctly) which apparently few days later it was announced those will be presented at Epigraphic Museum of Athens for few months (and previous week our municipality decided to start the procedures for Epigraphic Museum in Argos aswell). What a coincidence :d -- Jimkats (talk) 21:43, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Excellent news about Epigraphic museum for Argos! Yes, a good goal is ultimately to have every listed archaeological site in the arxaiologikoktimatologio.gov.gr have a wikidata id, plus everything in my ToposText, and every ongoing excavation. Adding detail is hard, however, and still finding my way on the efficient way to record something as both site and rescue excavation. I will happily fill in more of ancient Argos, with a little advice from you... But current project, impossibly large but I have some help, is to record public monuments in Greece, particularly memorials with bust/statue. This will be a powerful tool for understanding how history gets used in local and national politics. Do you want to do Argolid? Or send me a kml file of busts and statues and I'll do the rest. JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 10:51, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

For Argolida, still a lot of busts/statues are missing from OpenStreetMap, especially those in villages. Can't tell when a more complete dataset will be available. But for few instances I can add them in Wikidata with whatever info I can. I also have few photos of those if needed :d (which I took mainly for cases like this, to remember what is written on them). May I ask where do you utilize this info of memorials?
On another note, there are in total 3 places from the state which one can use for enlisted buildings and sites. Two of them are incomplete, besides the type of data they include. Those two are the new arxaiologikoktimatologio.gov.gr, the old odysseus.culture.gr. However the third one is the most complete of all three, because it shows all of those which are included in government gazette, which are of course much more than what the other two include currently. That is estia.minenv.gr, and at the same time, the site which includes all those specific government gazettes is listedmonuments.culture.gr. That's from where I found some specific buildings in Argos as enlisted, even though they aren't included in arxaiologikoktimatologio. --Jimkats (talk) 14:42, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I didn't realize the arxaiologiko ktimatologio didn't have everything in listed monuments, which is a resource I've been using for years. I thought the whole point of the Ktimatologio was to create a gis tool to help manage and make less user-unfriendly the listed monuments data. Oh well... I had forgotten the Estia site, though I stumbled across it once, because I'm less interested in protected early 20th c. buildings, except as an exercise in bureaucratic blackmail.

The blog Odosell.blogspot.com has collected a large number of statues/busts, but not yet mapped (we are working on this). I have no specific use for the data yet, but someone will... and searching for monuments is a wonderful excuse to wander around on a bicycle. I am adopting the distinction OSM makes that a memorial only becomes a monument if it is monumental. Do you agree? There is a problem that German Denkmal and Greek μνημείο have a wide semantic range English sporadically tries to narrow. Meanwhile, waiting for ELSTAT to release later this month the first 2021 census data, which can then in principle be uploaded to wikidata for each settlement via the ELSTAT id property (with the necessary updates/corrections). JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 15:17, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, memorials are supposed to be momumentals, but depending on the how the importance is faced by the current-age...And yes, because OSM in this part tries to distinguish with several types (as it does with several features), it's difficult most times to understand how to properly tag a memorial, when exactly in Greek we say just "μνημείο" for most stuff...
Ah, typical bureaucracy, especially the Greek one...sorry for having faced that in such way.
Yea, ELSTAT is going to announce the first results, unofficial as they say, this or the next Friday. This is going to be interesting due to the fact that this census was all over the place due to the hybrid procedure of by-person and by-Internet (I was census enumerator for a week before I retire due to lack of time, so I saw by first-hand part of the initial mess :d). --Jimkats (talk) 15:59, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Delos and World Heritage Site ID (P757)

Hello (long time no talk :d). I'm currently making a cleanup for Greece's World Heritage items, because it seemed there are duplicates in this list. Corfu and Rhodes are easy to fix as pointing them to the item of the old town only, but for Delos it's a bit complicated. I was trying to understand what exactly is declared as WHS there, the whole island or only the archaeological site. The map of the defined boundaries (2008), mentions the whole island, and in the legend of that map says that the size of the archaeological site is measured at about 350 hectares, which it seems to mean the whole island.
My question is, should the World Heritage properties reference to Delos (Q173148) as island (which already includes the ancient polis, but I'm not sure if that should be in the same item aswell), or to Delos (Q32148800) as the archaeological site only (which could perhaps host also the polis-related properties), or merge them all together into one item?
Having the island, as geographical entity, separate from the archaeological site/polis, as human activity related entity, would make sense in my opinion. Jimkats (talk) 00:07, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Greetings! The World Heritage designation should refer to the archaeological site, which is a modern administrative concept. The island is a distinct geographical feature, with a rich mythological as well as geological history; and the ancient city of Delos is an ancient political entity. There is a fourth key concept as well, the French Excavations on Delos, a distinct human activity. Unfortunately, the Wikipedia editors like to merge them all together, which for encyclopedic purposes aimed at the general public is great, but for linked open data with machine learning applications is very bad. (The excavations are a French academic operation under the École française d'Athènes, that digs holes, has a director, generates publications, etc. The Archaeological Site belongs to the Greek state, Ministry of Culture, which is responsible for applying for and receiving the World Heritage designation, with a distinct legal basis, organization, boundaries, etc. The island and the ancient political entity overlap but should be kept distinct; the sanctuary of Apollo on Delos is a distinct entity as well, despite being a key part of the archaeological site, and it has its own notable features (temples, altars, statues, buildings) that each deserve a separate identity for scholarly purposes. Better to split/link rather than to merge. Thanks! JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 06:51, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

2021 Greek census

While till 2011 the census would refer to "legal", "permanent" and "actual/de facto" population, for 2021 they drop the usage of "actual/de facto" statistic. They don't say that explicitly, but it can be derived by all the announcements which mention only "legal" and "permanent" population for their stats. Item resident population of Greece (Q16725803) should be used instead of de facto population of Greece (Q18602557) in main subject (P921) property of 2021 Greek census (Q62023493). Jimkats (talk) 18:45, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction. I extrapolated from past censuses, and the documentation is sketchy. My plan was to use QuickStatements to upload the population data from the spreadsheet downloaded from https://www.statistics.gr/2021-census-legal-pop-results, which applies only to demes and municipal units, not to communities. Do you see any issue with my trial effort, https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1027204 ? Note that a lot of δημοτικές ενότητες don't have an item yet, only their (now defunct) δήμος, but I don't know whether I have the strength to create a new item for them or change the P31 to Q1985797 plus former municipality https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q19730508. Greek administrative changes make it very difficult to create a genuine data series, since they slice up the country differently for every census. JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 19:17, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any issue, it looks proper. And at some point it should be standarized how to properly create the values, differentiating the legal and permanent population, exactly for possible data series, if we want Wikidata to be used as such.
Regarding items for municipal units and former municipalities, it's something that should be discussed how to deal with them (but I haven't had any discussion with other Greeks about that yet). Last year I discussed it with Maundwiki who was dealing with those at the time, and pretty much what it was suggested is to have one item for those, with having the instances for both "municipality" and "municipal unit" along with statements denoting start-end period. This wouldn't work exactly the same for all municipal units of Greece though, as there are few examples that either didn't exist as municipalities before or that were municipalities, became municipal units and then again municipalities. For the aforementioned case Aghios Georgios Municipal Unit (Q1027204) it would be just like it is at the moment, but replacing the "former municipality" with for example municipality of Greece (Q1349648). Don't know how it would work for cases like Mytilene Municipality (Q16737235) for which the current actual municipal unit refers to the municipality as it existed till 2011, while the current municipality is an expanded one ("διευρυμένος δήμος" as it's called) just like most other municipalities. The issue here is that the "municipal unit of Mytilene" still exists, but there isn't a separate item for that because we just updated the current item when the municipality was recreated in 2019, instead of creating a new one.--Jimkats (talk) 19:54, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

@JBradyK I just noticed that in the dataset they provide with the legal population of municipal units, the ELSTAT geographical code (P1116) differs from their latest dataset of the municipalities/communes/settlements registry (that is in 2021 updated till 31/12/2020, maybe they didn't publish for 2022 due to the census). The difference occurs only in the regional units where new municipalities (re)created in 2019. They changed the order of those municipalities in relation with the already existing ones of the regional unit, hence changing the ELSTAT geographical code (P1116) for many settlements, communes and municipal units aswell. Just like for the municipalities of Servia and of Velvento, which now changes the IDs for almost the whole of Kozani regional unit.
I'm not sure about you, since it seems you already started adding the population for the municipal units, but personally I would wait till the full results are out, just to be sure about the ID changes. Or if you would like, you could contact ELSTAT querying them about that (if they don't take long time to respond).--Jimkats (talk) 01:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll check again that population is attached to the right entry in these cases. I took the precaution of aligning to a municipal unit's Wikidata ID both by name and by ELSTAT, and then hand-checked (possibly not all but most) when the Qid didn't match. I'll check the demes too. Definitely we had better wait on updating ELSTAT IDs in WD until they signal their mind is made up. JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 06:10, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Geraki Drspiros Sp!ros Cadm971 Epìdosis JBradyK Jimkats Magnus Manske (talk)

Notified participants of WikiProject Greece I spoke to the Greek Statistical Service 21 March 2024 and a spreadsheet of settlement/οικισμός-level 2021 census data for permanent population (resident population of Greece (Q16725803)) is supposed to be released in the next few days, along with an updated μητρώο of demes, communities, and settlements reflecting updated ELSTAT IDs, new settlement names, mergers, etc. This will require substantial updates to settlement-level WD items. The current version of the downloadable spreadsheet ( 2021 registry of settlements ) gives both the 2020 ELSTAT code and the code used in the 2021 census, showing that more than 10% of the ELSTAT codes have changed, and I'm guessing there will be many more changes in the new release.

Note that 2021 Census permanent population data at the commune of Greece (Q111904027) level (which was until 2019 the municipal/local community (Q12876091) level) was released in April 2023, but we cannot use it usefully until we create items for thousands of these communities, many of which have several human settlement (Q486972). The ca. 1000 existing municipal/local community (Q12876091) items and 2624 commune of Greece (Q111904027) items (out of 6100+ total) lack the correct up links located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) to the 1000-odd municipal unit of Greece (Q1985797) and down links contains the administrative territorial entity (P150) to the 13500 human settlement (Q486972) (a number that keeps shrinking). Instead, their P131 link is to the municipality of Greece (Q1349648), skipping a step. I suppose my question is how historically complete a model do we want of these administrative tweaks. The difference between commune of Greece (Q111904027) and municipal/local community (Q12876091) is obscure to me, and it would seem pointless to create 6000 of each rather than merge the existing ones. When Kapodistrian muncipalities of 1997 were brutally merged in 2011, the losers mostly became municipal unit of Greece (Q1985797). Some are P31 former municipality of Greece (Q117871604) as well as municipal unit of Greece (Q1985797).

Does anyone want to take the lead on this, or should I soldier on? Advice?

As a reminder to myself, there are currently 8 levels in the Greek administrative system, some of which are theoretical more than real, designed to copy EU norms and/or circumvent the delegation of financial authority to an elected local/regional level. The settlements are the only real places, more or less, with houses and inhabitants, somewhat stable, though they can be merged when a new house is built that shortens the distance between two clusters, or if the population drops enough, as it often does. Everything else is a pure administrative abstraction, particularly the odious pseudo-municipal unit, a statistical place-holder for municipalities that have no actual administrative subdivisions (e.g. islands, Athens suburbs).

Level 2 decentralized administration of Greece (Q3559207)

Level 3 administrative region of Greece (Q207299)

Level 4 regional unit of Greece (Q1234255)

Level 5 municipality of Greece (Q1349648)

Level 6 municipal unit of Greece (Q1985797)

Level 7 commune of Greece (Q111904027)

Level 8 human settlement (Q486972)

Thanks! JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 10:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Again they will change the IDs? :/ Thank you for successfully contacting them.
For communes and communities, absolutely they should be merged (if separate ones already exist) because even if they have some administrative differences, they occupy the same exact area, in most cases as they did even before Kapodistrias reform of 1997 (back then most of them called municipal/local districts (δημοτικά/τοπικά διαμερίσματα). Already, as you said, many of those communities already exist, mainly in Macedonia, Thrace and Crete.
The 7 levels you mention are true, and the settlements designation from ELSTAT is a bit weird, because for example they keep counting some abandoned areas as current settlements (maybe their actual residents stay there a few months only, hence they show up as 0 population), while inhabited areas which aren't necessary adjacent to other inhabited areas, aren't considered anymore as separate settlements for ELSTAT. But that's unfortunately not up to us to solve :d.
I don't have an automated way to help add the new values for the ELSTAT IDs (and new items for the communes which don't exist yet), so I won't be much of a help. I will start with Argolis when it's time. At the same time, let's not forget the communes also have LAU codes (from EU). It may be out of scope currently, but just to keep in mind for the future.--Jimkats (talk) 16:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

CENSUS UPDATE:

The Oikismos/settlement-level resident population spreadsheet was released on ELSTAT on Friday 29 March 2024. Meanwhile, I created the missing commune/κοινότητα and municipal unit items and linked them via P131 and P150. Communes now have resident population for 2021 and 2011, whereas for municipal units and municipalities I had uploaded legal population. Over the weekend I have laboriously aligned the existing settlement items and am currently uploading 2021 resident population data for them. When finished, will upload P131 links up and contains settlement (P1383) links down. Quickstatements is running slow... My thought at the moment is to upload the ELSTAT codes quoted in the 2021 census and using 2021 Greek census (Q62023493) as reference, since sorting out what codes changed when seems currently unanswerable. JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 16:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Didn't check the settlement spreadsheet yet.

About ELSTAT Codes many were changed when some Municipalities were "divided"

The changes of ELSTAT codes are presented each year in statistics.gr site

I have a list made as a note in my wikipedia page Drspiros (talk) 06:14, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Drspiros Thank you! I understand the logic of the ELSTAT changes and hope I caught almost all of them, but wish they would not sometimes renumber a dozen settlements when one settlement is abolished or added.

Drawing on your wikipedia page would have saved me considerable work, and even better would have been to have consulted with you first.

Question: Some el.wikipedia articles use templates to pull up Wikidata data, but I don't know how that works for settlements/communities and population, where a lot of nice historical data seems to have been compiled by hand. Is it useful to create/update some standard template for settlements to show the new data?

I am hoping that the definition for μόνιμος πληθυσμός (resident population of Greece (Q16725803) didn't change too seriously between 1991 and 2021. I don't know whether it is worth the effort to have νόμιμος πληθυσμός legal population of Greece (Q29048752) in the data series as well, at least for higher-level entities, though the difference between the two is an interesting statistic.

The 1961-1981 census pdfs have legal population and πραγματικός πληθυσμός de facto population of Greece (Q18602557) but not resident population of Greece (Q16725803). If someone were one day to add that data to Wikidata, they would have to flag the data series discontinuity in Wikipedia... Do you know of any clean spreadsheet of that data? There must be one somewhere: OCR technology is good enough now, with a little help from AI, though the print format makes a convention OCR scan very difficult to clean up.

Thanks again... JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 07:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Settlements renumbered was in 2015 when the "capital" of the Municipality 7108 (Chersonissos Municipality) was given (by mistake?) the 7108-01-02-02 instead of 01 in everything.

(4 digits is Municipality, two next are for municipal units and next two for local units- now communes- and final two for settlements.)

I believe in all other cases settlements/local units/municipal units were given new elstat codes and abandoned settlements' Codes were not rearranged or given to other settlements.

Also I believe I had added the ELSTAT Code changes in wikipedia items. (for settlements at least) Or most of them as i see those "OK"s in last column Drspiros (talk) 22:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@JBradyK Removing Q39825 from P459 causes some templates (e.g. Κωμόπολη χωριό) to show no population at all. Serresmap (talk) 11:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for reporting that. I'm hoping an administrator can be found to change the Wikipedia template so as to use the added population numbers, by looking first for resident population of Greece (Q16725803), then for de facto population of Greece (Q18602557) and only then for census (Q39825) or no determination method or standard (P459) qualifier. census (Q39825) is not precise enough on its own and reduces the comparability of the numbers in a data series.

Before 1991 I find only νόμιμος and πραγματικός πληθυσμός, with μόνιμος introduced then in accordance with EU guidelines, whereas in 2021 de facto population became impossible to measure since the census was a multi-week process.

Now that we have a WD item for (almost) all active κοινότητες, I have been trying to eliminate mistaken use of commune-level population numbers from the item for an individual settlement. The νόμιμος πληθυσμός legal population of Greece (Q29048752) applies only to administrative units, not to settlements, and needs to be flagged as such with determination method or standard (P459). How useful it is I don't know.

In order to add the correct (almost always μόνιμος) determination method or standard (P459) qualifer to the 2011 census data, I apparently have to delete them and reload them. QuickStatements is moving slowly, so there will be holes in population numbers for a couple more days.JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 12:22, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@JBradyK also note that permanent (μόνιμος) population in old censuses doesn't refer to settlements but communities, that may contain more than one settlement. Serresmap (talk) 11:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

CENSUS UPDATE 15 April2024:

Greek resident population data for 1991, 2001, 2011, and 2021 is uploaded and pretty clean. This query will pick up the population figures for all items with an ELSTAT ID. Download as csv and upload to Excel, remembering to specify "type text" for the ELSTAT code so as not to lose initial zeros. A simple pivot table then gives the population series for each place, but use determination method as filter to make sure you don't sum multiple population figures for the same year.

I've uploaded on Google Drive an Excel sheet, the settlement-level resident population census figures aligned to Wikidata items, which I am using to manually input the 1951 Greek census a nomos at a time. Feel free to borrow and adopt a census of your own (1961, 1971, 1981?) GreekCensus2021toWikidata JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 15:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Copyrighted artworks

I saw you added the copyrighted status of the busts and statues, and honestly I didn't know those sculptures in public areas are also affected by copyright status. Do you know how long till in comes into public domain, in such cases? Some of these sculptures, don't have information about creator and date of creation.
Also, since when the copyrights status comes into effect? When the sculpture is completed or when it's set for exhibition (since they are usually made specifically for that)? I think there's a case of a statue in Patras (Germanos of Patras, in Psila Alonia) which, according to the information written on it (don't have the photos in front right now, by memory) it was built in, for example, 1919 but was set for exhibition in 1922. Jimkats (talk) 15:22, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm following the guidance of Geraki, who points out that Greek law follows French law in granting sweeping rights to creators, even when no claim of copyright is made or even intended. So I've tagged monuments as public domain if the work is by a sculptor who died before 1952 (rolling 70-year period after death for copyright expiration). Greek law allows use of images of publicly displayed monuments on the internet for non-commercial purposes, but the limits on this have not been tested. Where I don't know the sculptor, for now I'll leave this property blank. There is a can of worms here, but I think Wikidata is pretty safe in what it uses... JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 15:40, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Q116150855 as heritage designation

I see you added Q116150855 as heritage designation, but Q116150855 is a castle and not heritage designation, so I reverted some of them. C messier (talk) 09:18, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for noticing that. I was using QGIS 3.30 to align some places, not realizing that it often throws a handful of random errors into the export, that can propagate through a csv table into QuickStatements. I will fix the rest. JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 10:21, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Kerkis (Q1367959) and Kerkis (Q43007168)

Hi, I hope everything goes well :).
So, I noticed that there are 2 items referring to Kerkis mountain in Samos (Kerkis (Q1367959) and Kerkis (Q43007168)). The second item (Kerkis (Q43007168)) has the description of the ancient volcano, even though every other info refers to the mountain in general. And 3 identifiers pointing in that item, which mention both the ancient and the modern.
Do you think these 2 items should be merged or modify the second one to refer to the ancient volcano/mountain? It's not like the mountain disappeared and reappeared since the ancient times, it's the same mountain :p.
I'm asking you since Pleiades and ToposText point at the second item. Jimkats (talk) 16:39, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I think they should be merged. Will you do the honors? JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 09:12, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Merge

Hi Brady! When you merge, could you please do so to the lowest Qid? It doesn't really matter which is more complete, as it can always be more; merging to the lowest Qid will ensure that the identifiers are stable over time. Thanks! --Jahl de Vautban (talk) 07:41, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for alerting me to this convention, one I have mostly observed but not always. Could an instruction to this effect be put into the Merge two items and Help:Merge pages, or would this cause dissent from somewhere? JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 09:10, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Referencing Pauly-Wissowa

Hi Brady,

thank you for creating new items for items described by Pauly-Wissowa. When you add the statement "described by source", can you do it in this way? It is standard practice here.

Have a nice evening! Jonathan Groß (talk) 16:23, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi Jonathan, will do in future. Where does this great Pauly-Wissowa initiative now stand? Is someone still working systematically, expanding the coverage and connecting PW articles with main subjects?JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 05:22, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

The project is very much alive, thanks to the efforts of various Wikisourcians. In fact, some of them are meeting up from 15–17 October in Dresden and will (among other things) talk about bringing together Wikisource and Wikidata. I have a faint slither of hope that I might be able to attend as well, but if not I'm sure someone else will come forward to keep us apprised.

I've created Wikidata:WikiProject Antiquity/Pauly-Wissowa today and hope to document pertinent stuff there, including our best practices.

If you like, I can tell you more about the Pauly-Wissowa project in private ... I'll send you an email.

So long, and καλό σαββατοκύριακο, Jonathan Groß (talk) 13:17, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Epigoni

Hi Brady! I noticed your edits to Epigoni (Q780650). I think we should really have two items, one for the group and one for the event. I've created war of the Epigoni (Q123485618) now. Jonathan Groß (talk) 20:21, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Did the same with Seven against Thebes (Q3119061) and war of the Seven against Thebes (Q123485705). Jonathan Groß (talk) 20:50, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Indeed I was led astray by the Seven Against Thebes https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3119061, where I hit the problem trying to tag their tombs near Eleusis in Paus 1.39.2. I see some fog between part of and member of and participant, though the latter is for events. How do we link the Epigoni Q780650 to your https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q123485618? P607? JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 20:52, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that seems like a good way to go about it. Thank you, Jonathan Groß (talk) 18:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC)