Talk:Dungeon

examples

Considering that just about every castle has a dungeon, and there are thousands of castles, do we need to start a section of examples? All it does is encourage editors to add their own examples and it creates a lengthy list of no value or structure or meaning. In fact Wikipedia is about notable things, if you want to list examples there needs to be a reason why they are notable enough to be given preference over other examples. If you want a complete list, create a new article List of dungeons, similar to List of castles. -- Stbalbach 00:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

One needs to be very careful in saying that rooms in castles are dungeons. Most medieval castles did not have dungeons - imprisonment as a punishment had not then started, and the romantic/grizzly "medieval torture" myth largely relates to later Renaissance times. There are genuine examples, but it is in the commercial interests of those who earn revenues from castle visitors to identify dungeons and fill them with horrible-looking instruments of torture, brought in from elsewhere and usually much later than the date of the building. So-called dungeons often turn out to be cellars, water-cisterns or privies. Cyclopaedic (talk) 10:21, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Cyclopaedic, most castles did not have dungeons as we would usually know them. Practicality and limited space would dictate most castles could not afford to have a room solely put aside for a dungeon. Tamworth Castle for example has a room called "The Dungeon" (complete with ugly mannequins chained to the wall and in the stocks), but the guidebook clearly states that that room was a storeroom and only gained the name "dungeon" in the Victorian era (small, windowless room - you can see where they got it from).

On the other hand we should also remember how the feudal system worked - local lords had to act as local judge; and so I suspect many (if not most) castles would have had some form of "lock up". But whether this would be a permanent feature or whether this was just another room (probably a store room or cellar) used as and when needed.... Either way it would probably be a long way from the torture filled dungeons of the popular imagination.

And so any list of dungeons (here or on its own page) need to be very carefully fact-checked to check they are were truly dungeons and have not just gained the name at some point in-between. So it may be worth subdividing any list to differentiate from permanent dungeons, local lock ups, rooms used as dungeons/lock ups as and when, and then rooms called dungeon with no evidence they were used as such.

Rushton2010 (talk) 23:34, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Questions

Regarding this picture:

The dungeon of Bothwell Castle seen from the Great Hall

Why is this picture "inaccurate"?

A: There is no dungeon in the picture, only a donjon in the distance. Further, there is no factual evidence that shows the donjon of Bothwell was used as a dungeon in the vernacular/encyclopedia usage. CJ DUB 17:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding this sentence:

It was the strongest, or only, tower in the Castle. There were no windows in the lower part of the tower in order to strengthen the walls.

Why is this removed? Thanks. -- Stbalbach 15:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

A:I think we should stick to describing what is a dungeon vs. describing something that is altogether different. This phrase wanders considerably when describing the dungeon origin. CJ DUB 17:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I see, I had not realized donjon had been re-directed to a different article. -- Stbalbach 14:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikiproject Prisons

If anyone's interested, I've proposed a new wikiproject for the creation of articles regarding specific prisons here. --Cdogsimmons (talk) 01:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Merge Oubliette

I propose merging oubliette into this article. Any discussion at Talk:Oubliette#Merge into Dungeon please. Cyclopaedic (talk) 16:53, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Now done. Cyclopaedic (talk) 05:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a link to oubliette that leads back to this page.76.17.118.157 (talk) 05:46, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Only problem I have with this merge is now I have very little idea what an Oubliette actually is yes it is a dungeon cell but with no description except for a sentence in the beginning is very much lacking information. Now if you search for Oubliette you get sent here with very little information on what exactly it is specifically. If you are going to merge an article at least give some more information about it in the article you merged to. Other then a one sentence brief description in the opening paragraph that is tacked on more like an after thought their is no information on it. 67.142.164.25 (talk) 04:53, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Bottle Dungeon

Is there any difference between a bottle dungeon and an oubliette? Is the term bottle dungeon just the English form of the French term? (An example bottle dungeon can be found at St Andrews Castle, and is mentioned very briefly in that article.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.111.221 (talk) 20:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

A Google search finds the term bottle dungeon largely confined to St Andrews. I haven't seen it, but I am extremely sceptical about this sort of claim - usually made for the tourists. The top-access oubliette sounds a silly idea - wholly impractical and a waste of resources. Why dig down 22ft through solid rock to create a prison cell? On the other hand, if you had a need to store water for the castle... Cyclopaedic (talk) 23:35, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

An oubliette and a dungeon are very different things. This article is wrong. 79.138.227.42 (talk) 11:48, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

French dictionaries imply that oubliette(s) is just French for dungeon (donjon is French for keep), so maybe there's a possiblity that the mythical? oubliette or bottle dungeon is something invented by Dumas or a film producer or someone. I think work needs to be done clarifying the issue. FangoFuficius (talk) 12:20, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

In Gaming

Should there be more references to dungeons in gaming? Dungeons play a significant role in many games, and also have a slightly different meaning (dungeons are full of enemies, not prisoners). Or perhaps a separate page about dungeons in gaming. --173.3.16.92 (talk) 03:00, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Check the dragon page. FangoFuficius (talk) 12:53, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Further reading

I intend to suggest some updates to the article, but in the meantime would anyone mind if a further reading section was added linking to a paper I wrote which appeared in the Castle Studies Group Journal? It is creatively titled "Castles as prisons". The paper is available through academia.edu. Richard Nevell (talk) 22:31, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Oubliette Diagram Not Clear

The diagram of the oubliette is not quite clear. Could someone add annotations indicating where the space for the prisoner is, where the entrance is, etc.? --Roland (talk) 03:06, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Propose unmerging Oubliette and Dungeon

The merge from 2009 seems awkward today. There are sentences about dungeons and sentences about oubliettes, and the two seem rather separate. It seems to me that these two articles should be separated. Korossyl (talk) 16:14, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Article is wrong: oubliette and dungeon are NOT the same thing

In Warwick castle, for instance, there is a dungeon AND an oubliette. They are different things. The oubliette is a small, more or less coffin sized space, in the floor of the dungeon. It WAS used for isolating prisoners and, presumably, keeping them confined within. The idea that it was used for storage is nonsensical; it was too small for storage and, being set in the floor of the dungeon, anything stored within that small space would have been decimated by rats within a matter of house.

Someone, somewhere, has got this article wrong. And it needs amending.

79.138.227.42 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:47, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

UK Focus

Much or the article assumes that dungeons are a UK phenomenon. I came here looking for info after reading about dungeons in the Book of Isaiah! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Happinessbird (talk • contribs) 15:18, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Isaiah as translated by whom and from which OT, Hebrew, Septuagint or Jerome? FangoFuficius (talk) 12:52, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Who was the most famoust prisoner in a dungeon?

what is the most famous prisoner in a dungeon? VirozPlay (talk) 07:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)