Talk:Violengiguar

Discussion carried over from the Trypticon page.

Here's the best I can determine what the final paragraph on that Japanese info site says, having run it through three different auto-translators.

Because his natural state is an aggregate of the ghosts of Destron soldiers who died in battle, it would seem that his body has no substance. For this enemy who has a soul/spirit body, the impression is that he was purified through the power of Zodiac, as far as I saw in the illustrations of TV Magazine.

There's also stuff about him splitting into three bug-robots (Vion/Baion, Lenjer/Renjaa and Igern/Igaan), and turning into a giant firebird in his last battle with the Powered Masters, which the guy describes as "being like the final battle with an RPG's last boss".

We need someone who really knows the language to look at this page. Unfortunately, the person I know/trust the most (separate from the previous guy I mentioned) is out of town for Iacon One.--Monzo 01:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid my computer can't display Japanese characters (a real bitch...). I actually haven't been able to find any story pages for Zone...ever. I've managed to accumulate some for Battlestars and Operation Combination, but can't find Zone for the life of me. All I know about the events of the story pages I learned from Rob's Transformer page/Electric Escape, but we all know how reliable that source could be. Which is why I didn't bring up the 3 bug-modes, as I don't know if that's BS or genuine info.--DrSpengler 01:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The site you mention[1] lists the Vion/Baion, Lenjer/Renjaa and Igern/Igaan names as well as saying which is which. Check out an old post of Doug Dlin's[2] about this. Evan1975 17:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Romanization note

Just curious, but why was the Romanization note quoted here removed? It was presumably sometime during the crash period, as it's not on the copy of the cache which was restored, but it is on the last revision here. --abates 03:22, 12 November 2009 (EST)

Oh, is it because the spelling on the DVDs made "Violen Jiger" the official spelling or something? --abates 03:26, 12 November 2009 (EST)

I moved it way back then because The Ark spelled it that way. I dunno what happened to the note—I remember I moved it to the notes section (because a huge chunk of text in a gray field is ugly at the top of the article), but it seems to have disappeared since then. —Interrobang 04:59, 12 November 2009 (EST)

Matrix?

Would we consider Violen Jiger a matrix? I mean his is a group of sparks fused together and he has brought decepticons back to life. The only thing he hasn't done is darken the decepticons lightest hour. Tfus183crosscut (talk) 15:58, 15 April 2015 (EDT)

"A group of sparks fused together" is not what a Matrix is. --Sabrblade (talk) 16:43, 15 April 2015 (EDT)

Sorry, what I meant was the sparks of passed Deceptions, like how the matrix has all the past primes's sparks. Tfus183crosscut (talk) 17:12, 15 April 2015 (EDT)

Again, that's not what a Matrix is. The Matrix of Leadership doesn't have anyone's sparks inside it. It's a physical means of accessing the Transformers afterlife dimension, but also has other just-as-significant functions as well. --Sabrblade (talk) 02:17, 16 April 2015 (EDT)

Also Violen Jiger has never been referred to in fiction as a matrix. --abates (talk) 02:29, 16 April 2015 (EDT)

Name change

I'm gonna say that I feel this is close to a situation like Dai Atlas or Scylla, rather than, say, Guilthor; where the English name as used has been used consistently in all appearances across the board in English media, and that it should remain at the name space its at now. Escargon (talk) 21:34, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

Ehh, Dai Atlas and Scylla have been more prominent in Western fiction, whereas "Violen Jiger" was only in a guidebook and AVP, which played around with his name all the time. Those two also have the benefit of "misnames" that make sense while Violen Jiger doesn't. I feel making the intention more prominent (and to prevent further citogenesis) overrules the official but minor instances of Violen Jiger (like with Latolata). Saix (talk) 21:45, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

I disagree with calling this citogenesis; not everything that is not fully correct can be classified as that, and I think we really need to narrow that what that term should be used for before we ever get to publishing it as an article. But I digress; Violen Jiger was, for a little over or under 30 years, give or take a viable translation, and I feel that, again, compared to something like Guilthor, its recognized as his name by the general fandom, which I think should also be taken into account. Escargon (talk) 21:50, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

The name has always been two words and the second one always started with J. This is too much of a fetish for obscurity and author intentism. No one will understand what we are talking about. Assuming "Violengiguar" is a real translation, it should be a note and a redirect. It will be a redirect that is never used. --Thylacine 2000 (talk) 22:15, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

"Violen Jiger" is obscurity to begin with; nobody outside of maybe a thousand people will understand what you're talking about if you mention that name. (And how will people not figure out Violengiguar is the same thing? It's a change of a couple letters and basically pronounced the same.) How is this different than Rartorata/Latolata? "Fandom" is often very, very wrong when it comes to Japanese material and it's our responsibility to correct it and propagate correct information for later fans and media instead of sticking to misconceptions and misinterpretations just cuz they were around for a long time.

Furthermore, "Violen Jiger" wasn't even solidified till 2008, when The Ark II decided on that particular spelling. This page was initially at "Violen Jygar". The argument that this particular spelling was fandom lore for decades is unconvincing. Saix (talk) 22:27, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

The difference, I feel, is that Rartorata was the result of early fan misconceptions about things getting picked up and usd; Violen Jiger was a deliberate choice of romanization, made from consulting Japanese speakers. Escargon (talk) 22:39, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

I think that discussion would have went down much differently had Kaneda's intentions been known. Rartorata was also an attempt at romanization without knowledge of the etymology. Saix (talk) 23:31, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

Also, this is an English-centric wiki. The canonically published English media name "Violen Jiger" should stand. It's no different from "Deathsaurus." --Thylacine 2000 (talk) 23:00, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

Again, Latolata. (And Elphaorpha, Blentron, etc.) Ironically, the guidebook you're citing used "Deszaras"—and "Deathsaurus" was the intention of Ōno, anyway. Saix (talk) 23:31, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

To me, this is still very much a case similar to that of X Dimensions/Exdimensions and Rartorata/Latolata. Everyone in the past used those translations for years, even in official media (IDW and AVP, respectively), but the fact remains that it was wrong. We've made the changes to those pages to correct age-long fandom and official mistakes and made note of the lack of information that was used to give us those terrible translations in the first place. To me, this doesn't seem like "authorial intent", more of it being a correction. This isn't the first time official romanizations had gotten it wrong. It would be no different to another country taking English-originating names and butchering them in some way due to a lack of understanding behind them—there probably are some of those out there. Fanofcoolstuff27 (talk) 00:17, 14 May 2021 (EDT)

I think authorial intent and etymology are more important than the longevity of a name that isn't accurate. MrRald (talk) 22:02, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

I think that TFWiki has a responsibility to be a fair and accurate steward of information, especially when that information is obscure or culturally alien to our presumed english-speaking audience. I support a move to a carefully-considered romanization that matches creative intent, paired with an extensive and informative notes section on etymology, similar to Latolata. Brightcoat (talk) 22:58, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

As someone who never agreed with this Romanization in the first place, I support a move matching the original intent of the name. --Monzo (talk) 00:22, 14 May 2021 (EDT)

I'm totally for the move too. I feel like that may have gotten lost in my earlier statement lol. Fanofcoolstuff27 (talk) 00:27, 14 May 2021 (EDT)

How might we adapt the names of his three components? "Vion" is fine but "Lenja" and "Igern" don't really reflect the words of the name's meaning. "Lenga" gives the wrong impression to English speakers not in the know, and "Iguarn" also looks odd. --Sabrblade (talk) 01:20, 14 May 2021 (EDT)

I was going to go with "Lenger" and "Iguarn". Saix (talk) 01:34, 14 May 2021 (EDT)

I'd support a move too. "Violen Jiger" may have been a deliberate choice, but it was one made with less information available than we have now. Keeping it around just out of... inertia doesn't seem right. I disagree with the "oh but Violen Jiger is his published Western name" idea because (a) it's barely published, this guy has not exactly had much exposure in Western media and (b) this isn't a Stepper vs. Ricochet situation where a conscious decision was made to give the character a new name for Hasbro markets. Rather, those scant pieces of Western media intended to keep his Japanese name, and Violen Jiger simply happened to be the accepted way of romanising that Japanese name at the time. I'm generally a big proponent of not being giant dorks about Japanese media, but I think this is a pedantic but positive change. The alternative is putting the existing romanisation on a pedestal just because "that's how it's always been done". Jalaguy (talk) 04:01, 14 May 2021 (EDT)

Yeah, and it's not like we'd change it to Violengiguar in stuff like the AVP writeups where that was used as his English name. Same as how we kept Rartorata for IDWBW. --Riptide (talk) 06:01, 14 May 2021 (EDT)

I'm basically in favour of the move as well. Like Jala said, compared to something like the Dai Atlas/Daiatlas situation, the original romanisation is nowhere near prominent enough to cause any real trouble in terms of identity. Furthermore, due to the hard-to-find nature of a lot of interviews with JP creatives, I think we should prioritise as many insights into that creative process as possible. Side note, but I really think we should get rid of some of the joke romanisations given in the name section. Stuff like "Valium Chugger" goes over the line from "romanisations can be ambiguous" to "haha japanese funny", which I think we've been trying to avoid as of late. Star Spangled Sam (talk) 10:18, 14 May 2021 (EDT)