Terence McKenna - 1997 - On Art Bell

Terence McKenna interviewed by Art Bell, 5/22/1997
Terence McKenna on Art Bell, 5/22/1997

(Some of the banter has been left out ... and there is a hole or two during tape changes, but it's
pretty complete...)
AB: You have a theory about time. Time is one of my favorite all-time topics, so
before we launch into what you think about time, tell me what you think time is. In
other words, is time our invention, or is time a real thing ... I realize we're
measuring it, but in the cosmic scheme of things, is there really time?
TM: Yeah, you give me a perfect entree to launch into this thing. See, in the west
we have inherited from Newton what is called the idea of pure duration, which is
simply that time is sort of a place where things are placed so that they don't all
happen at once; in other words, it's used as quality-less, it's an abstraction. In fact, I
think when we carry out a complete analysis of time, I think what we're going to
discover is that like matter, time is composed of elemental, discrete types. All
matter, organic and inorganic matter, is composed of 104, 108 elements ... there's
some argument. Time, on the other hand, is thought to be this featureless,
qualityless medium, but as we experience it, as living feeling creatures, time has
qualities. There are times when everything seems to go right, and times when
everything seems to go wrong ...
AB: That's absolutely true. I've wondered about that all my life. There are time
when, in effect, you can do no wrong, and there are other periods of time when you
can do no right, no matter what you do.
TM: Well, so in looking at this, I created a vocabulary ... actually I borrowed it

from Alfred North Whitehead ... but I think I'm on to something which science has
missed, and it's this; it's that the universe, or human life or an empire or an
ecosystem, any large scale or small scale process, can be looked at as a dynamic
struggle between two qualities which I call habit and novelty. And I think they're
pretty self explanatory. Habit is simply repetition of established patterns,
conservation, holding back what has already been achieved into a system, and
novelty is the chance-taking, the exploratory, the new, the never-before-seen.
And these two qualities--habit and novelty--are locked in all situations in a kind of
struggle. But the good news is that if you look at large scales of time, novelty is
winning, and this is the point that I have been so concerned to make that I think
science has overlooked. If you look back through the history of the human race, or
life on this planet, or of the solar system and the galaxy, as you go backward in
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time, things become more simple, more basic. So turning that on its head, we can
say that as you come towards the present things become more novel, more complex.
So I've taken this as a universal law, affecting historical processes, biological

processes and astrophysical processes. Nature produces and conserves novelty, and
what I mean by that, as the universe cools the original cloud of electron plasma,
eventually atomic systems form, as it further cools molecular systems, then long-
chain polymers, then non-nucleated primitive DNA-containing life, later complex
life, multi-cellular life, and this is a principle that reaches right up to our dear
selves. And notice, Art, it's working across all scales of being. This is something
that is as true of human societies as it is of termite populations or populations of
atoms in a chemical system. Nature conserves, prefers novelty. And the interesting
thing about an idea like this is that it stands the existentialism of modern philosophy
on its head ... you know, what modern, atheistic existentialism says is that we're a
cosmic accident and damn lucky to be here, and any meaning you get out of the
situation, you're simply conferring. I say, no ... by looking deeply into the structure
of nature, we can discover that novelty is what nature produces and conserves, and
if that represents a universal value system, then the human world that we find today
with our technologies and our complex societies represents the greatest novelty so
far achieved, and suddenly you have a basis for an ethic--that which advances
novelty is good, that which retards it is to be looked at very carefully.
AB: Let me stop you right there. One of the first things we talked about tonight is
that you have a 128 baud connection from your mountain top secret location. As we
are discussing your theory, which is fascinating, of novelty, I'm taken to ask you
about several pages written by Michael Chriton with reference to the internet. It is
Michael Chriton's contention that the internet, which one might consider to be
novelty exemplified, is going to result not in more novelty but in fact in a slowing
of the process of evolution or novelty as you see it, because there will be a
commonality, there will not be innovation, there will not be entrepreneurship, there
will be main ten ideas in America and Hong Kong and Moscow and so forth ... how
would you address that?
TM: Well, I'm astonished ... I hardly know what he is talking about..
AB: Okay, let me rephrase it. He's saying the internet will stifle diversity and that
diversity is critical to advancement.
TM: Well, what I see happening, and I spend hours a day on the internet, is I
believe it's a great force empowering marginal and minority points of view to come
along in centuries. In other words, before the internet, the great establishment ideas
already had the machinery of the media to communicate their positions. What has

happened is that the common man has gotten into the game with technology that I
don't think was ever intended to fall into (his hands).
AB: You bet it wasn't.
TM: So, I don't know what Chriton is talking about. I believe what the internet is
doing is dissolving boundaries between people, idea systems, classes, and factions,
and we're getting a much richer evolutionary interplay between ideas and this sort
of thing, so I see it as a very fertile place with a lot of mutation in hardware, in how
people view it, ideology, this sort of thing. I just don't know where he's coming
from.
AB: Well, uh, I might expand on it this way: He suggests, for example, that if you
were to take an otherwise deserted or barren desert island, and if you were to put a
species on it, that species, because there are so few of them, would by necessity be
very innovative, would change very quickly in trying to adapt and live and stay
alive. On the other hand, if you put many many creatures on that island, that
process would be far slower. He uses that as a parallel to the internet. I'm not sure
that I agree with it either, I just found it an interesting take on the sociological
implications of the internet.
TM: Well you see when people talk about the internet, they're usually talking about
the internet that was, because it's moving so quickly. For example, I just read a
paper by a guy name Alexander Chezlenko (sp) out of the media lab at MIT, and
he's talking about plug-ins that will translate web sites in one language into another.
Well, now imagine when people can put up web sites and Telugu, Weetoto,
Russian, French, you name it, and you can automatically slide into those web sites
and see what's going on ...
AB: You're describing Michael Chriton's nightmare and your, uh, best dream, I
believe.
TM: Well this is the thing about technology ... it tends to polarize people. Let me
make one point here before we leave this time thing ... I said I'd identified a
tendency in the universe which science had missed, which was to conserve novelty.
And then you asked about the internet, which sort of led me to the second half of
the observation. Not only does the universe have this preference for novelty, but
each acceleration into novelty has preceded more quickly than the one which
preceded it. So for instance the slow cooling out of the universe lead to the slightly
more rapid appearance of organic chemistry which led to the quite rapid evolution
of higher plants and animals which led to the hysterical pace of human history, and
I see no reason to suppose that that process of acceleration will ever slow down.

AB: Is it a linear process or is it an exponentially acceleration process?
TM: It's an exponentially accelerating process which leads to a kind of end-of-the-

world scenario which has led a lot of people to place me out with the squirrels
because I'm saying that this process of novelty is now moving so quickly that
within our own lifetimes it is going to accelerate essentially to such an intensity that
we will be experiencing more novelty in a few weeks or days than we've previously
experienced in the whole life of the cosmos.
AB: You have described precisely what I have just written about ... I wrote a book
called the quickening ...
TM: Someone showed me your book and I said yes, this guy is onto this.
AB: I'm on to it I guess in a more pedestrian perspective than yourself after

listening to your first half hour, but we're talking about exactly, precisely the same
thing. I've been this talk radio thing for about 13 years, you know, that all-night
show, and I am a trained observer of events and people, and every night I've had to
watch the news and dissect what's going on in our world to prepare for this
program. And in that 13 years, unmistakably socially, politically, environmentally,
you name it, in every one of those areas of human endeavor, things are beginning to
accelerate. There is simply no question about it, and that sounds exactly to be the
same thing you're proposing here.
TM: Yes, where I've gone further than most people is, a lot of people have noticed
the "time is speeding up" phenomena, but they tend to give credit to science or
media or something like that. What' I'm saying is that this is built into the laws of
physics.
AB: I think you're right, Terence. ...
(break)
AB: I sat here as I listened to the first half hour, in shock, because I realized you
were describing exactly what I wrote about, and what I did, Terence, I realize that a
lot of people will say that this quickening, or whatever you want to call it, is a by-
product of mass communication. And I began to realize, uh-uh, it is not a product of
mass communication. Yes we're hearing about it more, and more volumes about it,
but in fact, what you are describing is really going on, and I documented that much
in my book in each one of these areas and many more ... I documented the fact that
it is not mass communication which is beginning to quicken things, but there is
another process at work. Now, I don't know what that is, and I don't know where it

is leading. People will say, well, when we finally get to this crunch point, whatever
that is, what will happen? And I don't have that answer ... I'm just a talk show host,
and observer, but maybe you do. When we finally reach what you call Time wave
zero, um, what is going to happen?
TM: Well, the only way to predict what will happen is to look at the quality of
what has happened as the quickening, as you call it, has begun to accelerate. What
it's been characterized by is the dissolution of boundaries between classes of people,
bodies of knowledge, pools of capital, language groups, and so forth and so on, and
so it seems to me ultimate novelty must be a situation where all boundaries are
dissolved .And of course, what that looks like, I don't know. I don't know if it's a
virtual reality where you become god through the public utilities or exactly what it
is, but it's clear to me that the human nervous system is globalizing itself, building a
model of conscious thought on a planetary scale. Tens of thousands of people are
participating in this, none of them has a real notion of what it's all about, but
everyone is observing this sort of unfolding grand design and I think the emergence
of alphabets is part of the quickening, I think the emergence of hominids out of
more primitive primates is part of this quickening, I think this is the business that
this planet has been about for a very long time.
AB: Uh ... Are you able to discern any time-lines to time wave zero?
TM: Yes, we've been talking about this as a metaphor ... what makes me, I hope, a
little different from some of the other prophets in the marketplace is, I've got a
formal mathematical theory that ... you know, I mentioned habit and novelty, this
dualistic flow ... well, because it is a dualistic flow, it can be portrayed like the ebb
and flow of the price of a stock, or something like that, in other words, it can be
portrayed as a line graph. So I've written computer programs which produce what I
call novelty waves ... in other words, a time-scale wave that pictures the ebb and
flow of novelty. And by fitting known historical and paleontological and geological
data into these waves at different scales, I was finally able to discern a best fit. But
the conclusion that it led to was very startling to me, which is: this ultimate novelty,
this transcendental object at the end of time, isn't millennia in the future, it is in fact
slated to collide with historical necessity some time in late 2012.
Now, I know you have some interest in the Mayan calendar ... I didn't know when I
calculated this date that it was the same end date as the Mayan calendar ... to the
day ...
AB:: Let me ask you this... what did you, uh, input to your data base for this
computer program? In other words, what did you start with?

TM: Well I had a very academic interest in the I Ching, which is the Chinese
method of divination, and everyone who's looked at this thing has been struck by
the fact that it seems to work ... and so I carried out a mathematical analysis...
AB: I don't know what Ching (sic) is, and I know a lot of other people don't either.
What is it?
TM: Well, it's existed for thousands of years in China ... it's sometimes done by
throwing fifty stalks, or sometimes done with coins, but it's a method of producing
a thing called a hexagram which made up of either broken or unbroken lines--six on
top of each other -- so if you're a mathematician you can figure, if it's made up of
broken and unbroken lines and there are six of them on top of each other there must
be a possibility of 64 of these things ... And thousands of years ago in China there
was a vast body of literary commentary built up around these hexagrams, and they
have always been presented in a traditional order, a certain way that they are always
presented. And I was studying a very academic question, which was, is this order of
these hexagrams a true order, in other words, governed by rules, or is it simply a
random jumble sanctioned by tradition?
And this very obscure academic question led ultimately to the discovery that the I
Ching was a 384 day, thirteen lunar cycle calendar. And then from there I realized
that this 384 day calendar was actually a (something) subset in a fractal time-
keeping scheme that is really more accurate and more sophisticated than anything
in the west. So what I'm really suggesting here is that in the same way that the west
conquered the nature of matter through the elaboration of modern science, about
4000 years ago in China a deeper analysis of time was carried out than has ever
been undertaken in the west, and that the mathematics of this thing became buried
then in this fortune-telling system. And I basically teased it out, and in my book
The Invisible Landscape, and at my web site, all this stuff is explained.
AB: Terence, what is your web site?
TM: It's at levity, it's http://www.levity.com/ and then just click on Terence
McKenna.
The interesting thing, Art, is that with a wave like that, you can do what's called
retrodicting. In other words, if you have a wave of novelty that describes the past,
you have to correctly predict the Italian renaissance, the Greek enlightenment, the
modernity of the 20th century, so by predicting the past, we've gained confidence
that this wave predicts the future.
AB: That sounds quite scientific, in other words, science is repeatability, and if

your can repeatedly demonstrate that you can mathematically show the events of
the past, then yes I would imagine that you can project.
TM: Well, so I've been active since 1975, but the theory is in a sense very
conservative. It never says what will happen, it says when interesting things are
highly likely, and when you're just wasting your time.
AB: Um, when you project toward 2012, um, what is the magnitude of the spike or
the difference there? Uh, if you can give us an idea of the magnitudes along the way
...
TM: There is only one point in the entire cycle where the level of habit drops to
zero; effectively then novelty becomes infinite. And at that point occurs on this
solstice date in 2012. Now it's very interesting ... there are some people on the net
called singularists, and they're hard-headed engineering types, and they take rates of
energy release and rates of data storage, this sort of thing, and draw all their curves
out, and they can see that some time between 2008 and 2020 everything will
produce infinite amounts of energy ... we pack infinite amounts of data into
infinitely small spaces, in other words, the same sort of things where, because of the
acceleration built into the unfolding of this novelty process, we're gonna cross more
territory between here and 2012 than we have crossed between the Big Bang and
getting to here.
It kind of explains what is happening, that it isn't the old-style religion, that it isn't
the sterile steady-state of science, it's that the universe is actually evolving some
kind of process of self-metamorphosis, and human beings indicate that we have
crossed some boundary into some new era, a new epoch of ever greater acceleration
into this process of self-revelation. This is what religions are raving about, this is
what every prophet on the street corner is trying to articulate, and I think it's real. I
think we're getting a lot of static because people can only deal with it through
images that they know ... you know, Marshall McLuhan said we drive into the
future using only our rear view mirror, and that's sort of what it is. But I call this
thing the transcendental object at the end of time, and I think in a sense, religion,
Christian revelation, it will all be fulfilled in a way none of us ever suspected,
because nature has this appetite for novelty and acceleration into novelty.
AB: So then again I ask, uh, at this moment that we speak of, uh, 2012, what do
you actually think will occur?
TM: Well, I've thought about this a good deal, and there are hard and soft
scenarios, but I've noticed that what the time wave seems most coherently able to
track is technology. Somehow technology is very important, it's the transformation

of the human relationship to the world through tools. And so what I'm thinking
would fulfill this entire scenario without requiring God Almighty to put in an
appearance is time travel. I think that we are moving toward ... you know if you
look at biology over huge scales of time ... hundreds of millions of years ... it is a
kind of conquest of dimensionality...
AB: Alright, let's consider that ... somebody recently said, and I have been
considering since I heard it, a very simple question. If time travel is possible, then
where are the time travelers?
TM: Well, when I asked that question to my sources, they said you can only travel
as far back into the past as the moment of the invention of the first time machine.
Because before that there were no time machines.
AB: Uh ... Let me think about that ... you can only travel back as far as the
invention of the first time machine, because before that there was no capability ...
TM: It's like trying to drive where there are no roads. It also means that when you
invent the first time machine, instantly time machines will appear by the tens of
thousands, having come through time back to see the first flight into time.
AB: That's incredible ...that's a whole new line of thought for me ... about that
question. And it might make sense ... uh, and your analogy is that you cannot drive
where there are no roads.
How long have you been residing on the side of the volcano there?
TM: Well, continuously now for about three and a half years. I've had land out here
since '77.
AB: Since '77. And before that?
TM: I grew up in western Colorado and I had my children and my marriage and all
that in California, lived 35 years in northern California ...
AB: Um, you knew Timothy Leary, yes?
TM: I knew him ... we appeared in public mostly in Europe together a few times,
and he certainly was a huge influence on me. I only came to know him in the past
seven or eight years, but as a kid growing up in the 60's he was an enormous
influence on me.

AB: You are now being called by many his heir apparent, his heir, now ...
TM: Well, I think not by many, but I was called it by him ... everybody else kept
their mouth shut. Well, my message ... I am very interested in the psychedelic
experience. I was raised catholic, and what I kept from that was an enormous thirst
for the paranormal, the miraculous, the supernatural. And I went to India and I
made the rounds of the gurus and the (gayshays?) and I didn't find what I was
looking for. But when I went to South America, to the jungles down there, I
discovered that LSD was only the tip of the psychedelic iceberg, and what I had
taken to be modern science and modern chemistry was actually a tradition of
shamanism and religious use of psychedelic plants that was thousands and
thousands of years old, and that fascinated me because I actually ... it worked with
me. Most people who seek the mystery with ...
AB: Listen ... let us pick this up after the top of the hour ...
(break)
AB: Here's what was written to me about Terence McKenna before we invited him
on the program: "Art, have you heard about Terence McKenna's theory called Time
Wave Zero? He suggests that as we get closer to Time Wave Zero, we are
experiencing tachyon radiation from it. Evidently, the impending event is so
colossal that it will emit such intense radiation that some of it will take the form of
faster-than-light-speed tachyon particles, or waves, that, uh, can travel faster than
light, and that they're actually being hurled backward in time. The closer we get to
the event, the greater the radiation density, and somewhat more frequently and
intensely we experience paranormal phenomena associated with it. This could be
the mechanism behind what you call the quickening. The event we are approaching
will probably be something tantamount to a white hole or a mini-big bang. It will,
for all intents and purposes, be the end of time for us. Terence believes it will occur
consistent with the Mayan calendar in the year 2012. By the way, he has derived
this, uh, independently from the Mayan calendar ... he simply has discovered that it
coincides with it.
He goes on ... "It is not unreasonable to assume that ET's possessing UFO's, if they
exist, will be flocking here to research, or rather, to presearch, the phenomenon. It
is also believed that tachyon bombardment would have bizarre effects on the human
nervous system--visions, that sort of thing--as well as physical manifestations in the
environment, like the Clearwater virgin, bizarre mutations like the Chupacabra, and
heaven knows what else ... all the stuff you attribute to the quickening might be
explained by this." And after listening to the first hour, I might agree.

Terence, I'm stealing one more bit of time to read you a fax that I think relates and
challenges you a bit. It is from Steven in Wichita, and it's well thought out. Um,
here it is: "Art, I'm not sure that you can equate novelty with either acceleration or
complexity. Nature has always been novel, and surprisingly so considering earlier
periods in earth's history. Given that over 90% of all species that have ever lived are
now extinct, and the exotic body designs, it would seem that novelty is a given. But
in order to be effective it must have a survival advantage and be passed on. Once
the novelty becomes a hindrance, it disappears. Acceleration may be more a factor
of population density. Virtually all of the social problems we face today have been
duplicated years ago in rat population density studies. Our novel inventions of this
century have simply artificially allowed us to compress distance and time by modes
of travel and communication. Profit motives have directed and limited the novelty
of our civilization in this century as never before, and we are becoming a hindrance.
The higher the population density, the more the acceleration seems to be, anecdotal
but relative, compare the case of a small country town to a large city with its
population density and resulting problems accelerated by stress and profit motives."
That's from Steve in Wichita. What do you think, Terence?
TM: Well, I don't disagree with all of that ... I think there's certainly been ebb and
flow of novelty within the 20th century, parts of it more novel than others. But I
think to argue that it isn't among the most novel periods of time is a pretty uphill
battle. The question is whether novelty is something that simply adheres to
statistical dynamics, or whether it's a real direction, a real arrow that's directing
process, and that's what I maintain. I think it's not true to say that the biota of the
earth today is not more novel than it was in the past. Certainly there are novel forms
of life that have undergone extinction, but the proliferation of human life, which is
an advanced animal plus a culture-creating creature, indicates to me that we are at a
level of novelty that this planet has never before experienced. Of course, it's an
arguable opinion, because history, which is what we're always comparing these
waves to, is not yet a quantified thing ... I mean, how do you compare the War of
the Roses over Queen Anne's War or something like that. But nevertheless, though
we don't have an absolute quantification of history, there is general agreement
among historians that events like the renaissance, the Greek Golden Age, the 20th
Century, are periods where a great deal of novelty in social forms and technology
was concentrated.
AB: Alright, you, uh, put together a computer program which was able to trace the
ebb and the flow of this novelty and in effect chart major events in history. Uh, how
many, if I might ask, hits and misses ... were there any misses in the model, or did
you hit each, uh, major moment on history on the nose?
TM: Well, by my understanding of this theory, there can be no misses. In other

words, it's not a statistical theory, we're not okay if we're right two-thirds of the

time, so we have to be right all of the time.
AB: So you're telling me you are.
TM: I submit to you and to the world for your examination and critiquing the fact
that yes, the time wave with it's end point December 21, 2012, describes with as
great an accuracy as I am able to discern the actual vicissitudes of novelty and habit
in history and natural history ... that's the claim.
AB: Uh, Terence, have you submitted this ... I mean, this is serious science that
you're discussing. Have you submitted this to peer review?
TM: Well, among mathematicians, yes. And there's a lively debate raging on the
internet about that.
Let me say something here though about science and why exceptions to the time
wave can't really occur under the tent of ordinary science. You have mentioned
repeatability ... repeatability is the idea at the very basis of the scientific method, at
the very basis of experiment. It's what's called restoration of initial condition. But
now notice that what the time wave theory is saying is that every moment in time is
a unique moment.
AB: Is unique and will not specifically repeat. But what you are suggesting is that
you can plot the highs of novelty throughout history.
TM: Yes, you can, but you cannot assume that you're doing it probabilistically. In
other words, essentially when you really understand philosophically what the time
wave is saying, it's an enormous attack on probability theory. You know, the way
science works now, if you want to know how much energy is flowing through a
wire, you take a thousand measurements, you add them together and you divide by
a thousand. And then you have the current flowing through the wire. But notice that
that assumes that it doesn't matter what time you make the measurement. And so
much of science is like this, to the point where I'm redefining science by saying that
science is the study of those phenomena so coarse-grained that the time in which
they occur does not affect them. And that leaves out then history, love affairs,
corporate takeovers, empire building, everything interesting in the human world is
too fragile, to finely embedded in the context of its time to be open to that kind of
scientific modeling.
AB: So, they're really small, insignificant events that don't enter into the larger
measurements that you're making of this ebb and flow?

TM: Well, for instance, on a given day when the chart says novelty will be high,
certainly somewhere in the world someone is having a very unnovel day ... it's a
statistical thing, a Bell curve, no reference to you, Art ... but a bell curve where
when the wave is predicting high novelty most people, most systems will
experience that novelty, but of course some will not. It's the idea that probability is
ebbing and flowing ... you know, when you study statistics the first thing they teach
you is when you flip a coin the odds are 50:50 heads or tails. If that were true, the
coin would land on its edge every single time. That's the rarest of all results in a
coin toss. So what's really happening is that what are called secondary or tertiary
factors are causing the coin to be heads or tails. I say, no, there are zones in time
where heads are favored and zones in time where tails are favored. The idea that
time can be described as a perfectly smooth surface which can be dealt with
statistically is just a first pass with Greek idealism, and careful examination of
nature shows that it could be inadequate, in the same way that perfect circles were
inadequate for describing planetary motion.
AB: You are therefore saying that conventional science does not have and cannot
have with its present course of investigation, a proper understanding of time?
TM: That's right ... beceause it assumes that it can bbe analyzed with statistics, and
that flattens out and denies the difference between various times and types of times.
AB: Terence, how long have you been working on this?
TM: Since 1971.
AB: You told me that you were originally from Colorado ... family and all that ...
then finally exile ...
TM: Well, essentially yes, then I got myself to the University of California at
Berkeley right at the time of the anti-war movements and all of that ... it was like a
kid in a cultural candy store ... and studied philosophy, art history, and then went
off to Asia, basically to check out the hash dens and the gurus. The hash was fine
but the gurus just wanted into my pockets, and so then I went to south America, and
as I mentioned, that's where the shamanism thing really grabbed me.
AB: What part of south America, Terence?
TM: Southern Columbia, the Cutamayo River basin. And, you know, it's the
psychedelic plants that are so fascinating to me, because .... you mentioned
repeatability ... here's a technology, a technique that lets you, repeatedly and with
relative safety, journey into alien worlds filled with alien forms of intelligence. And

it's the only thing I've found that does that, in other words, I've investigated flying
saucers, crop circles, and all that, and it doesn't turn me on.
AB: Let me quickly stop you there and ask you about crop circles. Many many
people feel that they are fractal in nature, and if you're on the internet I know you've
seen photographs of some of the more amazing ones. They do appear to be fractal.
What is your thinking there?
TM: Well, I was thinking, you know ... I don't know if it's been published in this
country, but this wonderful book called 'Around in Circles" by Jim Schnabel, to my
mind, that blows the lid off the whole crop circle thing ... you and I could spend a
whole evening, Art, discussing the relationship of the media to the human psyche to
how people handle evidence and .. because I really think the psychedelic
community has evidence to give on these paranormal questions that has never been
properly heard and evaluated because the ordinary society's attitude toward people
who use psychedelics is that they are automatically unreliable. But I think we're not
gonna crack stuff like UFO abductions and that sort of thing unless we admit the
psychedelic evidence. And if we do admit it, suddenly the whole thing begins to
look very very different.
AB: Alright, Terence ... I don't reject it, um, and a lot of guests I've had on who've
been into the very same areas that we're into now, very politically correctly rejected
out of hand ... you don't need it to accomplish this, they say, you can do it within
yourself, and I don't reject that thought either, but I would like to hear the case that
you would present, um, for psychedelics opening the doors that you're talking
about, um, that in fact they do. How would you make that case?
TM: Well, I hear what you're saying is that you're equating spiritual techniques like
yoga and prayer and meditation ... I'm not sure there's a connection, I mean , it does
help to be an ethical person to take psychedelics, but for instance, the psychedelic
that's fascinated me the most over the years is DMT--dimethyltriptamine. Now this
is not a well-known substance ...
AB: No it isn't ... what is it?
TM: Well, that's what it is ... dimethyltriptamine. It occurs in a number of plant

species throughout the world, it's utilized by native peoples, and in the pure form
out of the laboratory, when you smoke this stuff, you find yourself inside the flying
saucer that all these dazzled people are raving about. But you've found yourself
there by initiating an action on your own, in other words, repeatability. And after
about three minutes of spending time with the self-transforming elf machines and
their technology, you're deposited back in your apartment pretty much none the

worse for wear.
Now, let's give this stuff to the leading lights of the UFO community, or anyone
else who has an interest in unusual psychological or paranormal phenomena ...
AB: Okay, hold on ... another break ...
AB: And now from the Island of Hawaii and a very unusual individual .. Terence
McKenna. Terence, I've got a question for you ... have you ever watched Star Trek?
TM: Oh, yes ...
AB: You're familiar then, with the prime directive ...
TM: Um, thou shalt not interfere is I believe the prime directive ...
AB: Now, what you are saying is so serious and is such a large revelation, is it not
possible that you are in a sense, doing what you are now, violating the prime
directive?
TM: Well, you know it's only been about a hundred years since the means began to
arrive in the lap of western civilization that there were these psychoactive plants
gathered around the world. The first one was the peyote cactus, and in 1888
mescaline was extracted from that. I think it's not without implication that right at
our moment of greatest cultural crisis when we're destroying the environment and
uprooting the rain forests and so forth, that out of those same rain forests comes a
phenomenon that, if we will face it squarely, offers a severe challenge to our notion
of how reality works and how the world is put together ...
AB: And what if we miss it? What if we finally burn down enough of the rain
forests that that one plant that we could have used, is destroyed?
TM: Well, it may have already happened in the sense that three are many know
cases of people collecting promising plants from only one known source and then
returning a few months or years later to find the whole thing paved over.
AB: Alright, then tackle this one: "Very interesting. Terence describes a workable
scenario. But my question with it is this; is this a universal process or only a
localized affect? I believe that one of the theories of modern physics describes that
observations affect the process or thing being observed. Isn't it possible that the
data, the random sticks in China is being somewhat skewed by what is being
determined as to time? Hasn't everybody noticed the phenomena of time being

perceived to slow down depending on, for example, how frequently you look at the
clock. Cooks have noticed the same effect with boiling water. The quickening may
be happening because we notice certain events and then notice more of the same as
time goes along. In other words, we cause the process to occur at least from our
point of view.
TM: Yes, well, I think it's a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. I think we are
contributing to it as we discover it within ourselves. Something is calling us toward
itself, and as we approach it, we become more like it. Something is sculpting out of
the primate body over all these millions of years an entirely different kind of
creature. And as we go to meet this thing, which I call the transcendental mystery at
the end of time, we are taking on more and more of its characteristics, it's god-like
power, its ability to span (expand?) space and time. And when we finally do reach
it, I imagine there will be a kind of effortless moment of merging and recognition.
AB: Signposts along the way, life on Mars, maybe Europa, cloning ...
TM: The rise of the internet, virtual reality, nanotechnology, possibly alien
artifacts, all that and more. One image I carry into this thing, Art .. you know those
mirrored balls they hang in dance clubs that send scintillations racing around the
walls ... well the scintillations are distortions of the thing ... so as we approach this
transcendental object at the end of time, there will be more and more breakdown of
ordinary reality and more and more distorted scenarios of what it is.
AB: That clearly is a process that is underway now ...
TM: Yes, and everyone is, through their own fears, religious training, hopes, they
are trying to project ... what is it? What is it? And there's a lot of fear, a lot of
uncertainty. I am not afraid of it, I would really like ... one of the great things about
the psychedelic aliens is they don't vibrate with the strange vibes of the (feeble?)
trading grays of popular media vibrate with ... it's a much more upbeat and
affirmative kind of alien contact that occurs through the plant.
AB: This one plant or this one drug that you describe ... DMT ... I don't know what
that is ... um ...
TM: Well, what makes it so attractive in a discussion like this, Art, is it's one of the
most powerful of all the psychedelics, but it only lasts five minutes ...
AB: Five minutes ...
TM: Five minutes. So someone who has spent a lifetime dissing psychedelics or

denying the existence of the paranormal for that matter, should at least be willing to
invest five minutes. We've never lost anybody, you pick yourself up and go on
about your business ..
AB: Uh, the effects ... could you describe them to much of my audience that I know
can recall the effects of LSD or, uh, various mushrooms.
TM: It's very different. LSD is a kind of psychological self-examination and

strange thought processes and insights. What happens with DMT is that there is the
unmistakable feeling of having gone to a place ... in other words, it comes on in
about 15 seconds, and suddenly you're in a place, and this place is full of what I call
self-dribbling jeweled basketballs that are intelligent in some sense ... they're like
badly trained Rottweilers, they come bounding forward, and what they're doing is
that they're conducting some kind of a language lesson. Because they have a
language which you can see, is the only way I can explain it.
AB: What is the source of DMT? Is it a manufactured drug?
TM: It can be ... but it's source is really in nature, in plants like (psicotrio viridis,
desmenthacellanoianthus), there's a whole bunch of this Latin salad. Most of these
are south American plants, but every ecosystem on earth has DMT sources in it. In
fact, the human brain naturally produces it. Why? We don't know, but I'd say there's
a strong clue. Here's a drug that causes people to see little creatures, and this same
substance occurs naturally in the human brain. Now, I'm not saying that's the
answer to these UFO phenomena, but how many people have looked at this and
pursued this?
AB: Well, let me ask this ... uh, there are many who claim to have been abducted,
and if DMT is a naturally occurring substance in the brain, uh, your theory can
probably be verified by measuring those who have claimed to be abducted. Uh,
would such a measurement be scientifically possible?
TM: Well, the problem, you'll recall I said it only lasts five minutes. So unusual
amounts of this in the body are very quickly brought down to base line. It's one of
the most transient drugs in the body ever observed, so ... and an interesting thing
about it, Art, is when they measure its presence they look at human cerebrospinal
fluid, and they've discovered that it reaches its greatest concentration there between
three and four in the morning. Well that's when people are doing the intense REM
dreaming, and so I think ... You know, the Australian aboriginals have this concept
of the dream time, and I think when you put the dream time, the chemistry of DMT,
the abduction stories together and the depth with which modern media has
programmed and messed with people, you're very close to being able to talk about

the alien phenomenon. I think there are aliens, but I think they can only reach us
through our minds. They don't cross the universe in ships of titanium, they don't
even project holograms of themselves in the desert air. They come through the
human mind, and if you look at the human mind, in all cultures and in all times and
places, except western Europe and a few intellectuals in the past 200 years, the
human mind has always been haunted by sprites, gnomes, nixies, elves ... so I don't
see the UFO the modern way that's anything more than the latest wave of this
mysterious relationship that we have with disembodied minds through the
imagination.
Well, then people say, well, this is the old psychological reduction argument. No,
because when I say the human imagination, I don't mean some paltry psychological
function, I think the human imagination is the largest part of us, and where we're
going to spend most of the rest of human history.
AB: How is such a theory greeted by the majority of people who listen to you?
Right now I'm getting a lot of faxes and a lot of people are really hearing what
you're saying, even though you've got to listen very carefully, they're hearing what
you're saying, Terence, and a lot of them are agreeing with you, but there's gonna
be a big body of very violent disagreement too, isn't there?
TM: Well, yes, there are some very large eggs at stake in this game. I mentioned
science and the need to revise probability theory, there's a lot of vested interest in
certain versions of what the UFO phenomenon is, but you see what I bring to all of
this, and speaking for the psychedelic community, what we bring to all of this is not
simply another rap, or another tall tale, but a message.
AB: Oh no, I hear that. So then would you suggest that sightings of UFO's,
abduction encounters, if you could be there measuring a burst of DMT, you'd
certainly find it at that moment?
TM: I think you would find it. And I think another place you would find it is at
human death. I think this is very important ... I think as we die that we have, if we
haven't had it, a DMT trip. I also think probably every night in these deep dream
states we penetrate into realms from which we can remember almost nothing.
AB: Well, then that would be another moment at which we should be able to
measure a spike in DMT level in the brain.
TM: Are you talking about death?
AB: No, no, uh, yes, yes, I'm talking about both instances you cited ... deep REM

sleep and the moment of death ...
TM: Well, it's been confirmed in deep REM ... doing this kind of research on dying
people has a lot of ethical questions ...
AB: I understand ... but you're saying it has been confirmed ... do you know where?
TM: In deep sleep ...?
AB: No, in what institution there has been confirmation ...
TM: Well, at the University of Mississippi a few years ago a team lead by a guy
name Christian ... all those papers are in the literature, and in fact anyone interested
in this should just search DMT on the internet and they may have never heard of
this but they will be astonished ...
AB: Well, I've never heard of it but your chain of logic is making sense to me.
Now, let us talk for a second about paranormal events. As we approach time wave
zero, it is your contention that paranormal events ... ghosts, poltergeist, paranormal
events of all manner and shape ... will begin to increase, which would suggest, I
think, that DMT spikes will be increasing ... yes?
TM: That's a way of putting it, and certainly DMT is becoming more known in
society, and there's almost a fad now in locating plants in one's environment and
extracting this stuff and getting enough out to actually hit the money.
AB: Yeah, do we have laws against it yet? I guess I ought to ask ...
TM: Well, it's an interesting situation ... here it is, a human neurotransmitter, every
single one of us has it in our bodies, and yes, this is among the most illegal
substances ...
AB: It figures.
TM: It's a catch-22 ... we're all "holding," Art.
AB: Well the way things are going we'll probably all be tossed in the pokey for it,
we'll have little roadside stops and DMT measuring devices ...
TM: Well, I think this was Adam's fall ...

AB: You made a fascinating statement ... I said if there's time travel where are all
the time travelers ... your answer was, they will not be here until the first time
machine was invented because you could not go back to a time prior to the
invention of a machine that would enable travel. Your parallel was that you cannot
travel where there are not roads, and there are not roads back that far in time. If
time is to virtually end by 2012, Terence, where would you see the invention of a
time machine between now and then.
TM: Well, I don't think it's between now and then ... I think it's then. In other
words, if what the time wave zero thing is showing is that events can be portrayed
in this linear way as a line on a graph, that suddenly in 2012 for some mysterious
reason this can no longer be done, it must be because in 2012 time ceases to be
linear. And that must mean that because a technology is created which causes time
to lose its linear and serial quality, and that could only be time travel.
AB: And you believe that at that moment, tens of thousands, or even millions, who
knows, of time travelers will suddenly show up.
TM: Well, actually that's my conservative model of what would happen. What's
against that ... I'm sure you've heard this ... is the well-known grandfather paradox,
which is ... time travel is always said to be impossible because you travel back in
time and you could kill your own grandfather. How do we avoid this? I think we
avoid this by actually ... what happens when the first time machine is invented is
the rest of universal history happens instantly. This is the only way paradox can be
kept out of the picture. So I call it the God whistle scenario.
AB: So in other words, linearity ends at that instant ...
TM: And the rest of the history of the universe occurs in a few milliseconds. It's
sort of the reverse of the Big Bang where you get a lot of action in the first few
nanoseconds of the universe's life. In this model the universe undergoes half of its
morphogenetic unfolding in the last few milliseconds of its existence.
AB: Is that, then, the moment that the human race, in effect, joins those that we
contemporarily now visit only with something like DMT?
TM: Or, that the human race joins those that have passed over into the Great
Beyond, or both. That's what I think it is ...
AB: Are they one and the same, in your view?
TM: They may be ... I've thought that these DMT creatures ... what are they? And

the conservative position, since we know there are human beings is, they must be
some kind of human beings, but what kind? And the only answer I can come up
with is souls. I resisted this, but is it possible that shamans have been using plants to
peer into the great beyond and that there is a kind of ecology of souls out there?
When you ask a shaman, they say "well, you weren't listening ... we told you we did
it with ancestor magic." We say, "Oh, I get it ... an ancestor is actually a dead
person."
(Break)
AB: We're gonna go to the phone lines, and that should be an interesting adventure
in itself. But I want to ask you Terence, about souls. You mentioned souls, so I
have two questions. One is, there was a medical study in which a medical doctor
actually endeavored to set out and prove, in days when it was politically okay to do
this sort of thing, that the soul could actually be measured, that at the very instant of
human death, and he went through a whole big trip--I put the medical report up on
my web site-- uh, the human body loses about three quarters of an ounce ... uh, not
due to gases or anything else you might imagine in your mind, no physical cause,
all of that accounted for ... and he published this medical study suggesting that the
human body, at the instant of death, loses three-quarters of an ounce of weight. Uh,
do you have any reaction to that?
TM: Well, looking at it through the eyes of novelty theory, I think nature is very
reluctant to give up a complex ordered form once it is achieved. I've noticed that the
difference between living organisms and things like chairs and tables is the chairs
and tables don't metabolize. In a sense the soul is something that is manifest in time
... it's almost as though organisms have a hyperdimension .. they're objects with
time folded inside of them, and at death, what seems to happen is this complex
morphogenetic field if you will simply withdraws back into whatever higher
dimension it came from in the first place. It's not that it falls apart or dissolves, it's
that it retracts from matter. It clothed itself with matter for some decades and now
it's simply releasing its organizational power over matter. But it isn't being
destroyed ... that's my personal feeling.
AB: I absolutely agree with you, uh, but by your description, it would suggest that
there could not be physical weight to it, or could there be?
TM: No, I think there could be ... I think we don't know what it is or of what it
consists. This is all, as you pointed out, because the social attitudes and different
ideas of medical ethics, these areas are very difficult to get data on.
AB: Alright ... next data point. I don't know if up there on the mountain you've got

television ... do you have television?
TM: Well we have it but we don't do much with it.
AB: Well, 20/20 about a week ago did a truly fascinating segment ... maybe you
heard me talking about it on the program ... they followed a 57 year old woman
who received a heart and lung transplant from a teenage boy. When she uh woke up
from the operation, she had the immediate cravings of a teenage boy. And if that's
not enough for you Terence .... she of course had no idea who the donor was, but
she had a dream ... uh ... in one of the successive nights in which she dreamt the
name of the donor. All of this was chronicled on 20/20. Now, again it goes to the
question of the nature of the soul, but these are physical body parts, and the obvious
implication here is that some essence of that boy, uh, was transferred to this boy.
And this is not the only case of this ... it has been noted again and again in
transplant cases. What does that suggest?
TM: Well, you know we have memories, and we've never located ... though we
believe they're in the brain, we've never proven or demonstrated that. My friend
Rupert Sheldrake, the British physicist, he believes everything has a kind of
memory--objects, organs, ideologies, and that these things surround objects like
auras and follow them in time. But you can't move a heart or and organ from one
body to another without some of the--dare we say it?--karma associated with it
coming with it. I don't see how it could be any other way.
AB: Sure we dare say that .. no problem, and I think it's fascinating. So it again, is
really evidence of, I don't know if I dare use the word soul, because I'm not sure
that is the soul, but it certainly is some sort of transference that is occurring that
indicates that maybe our soul, or our being, is in no central location but rather a
total part of us. Yes?
TM: Absolutely yes.
AB: Alright, I would like to begin taking some calls here and let them ask you
some questions ... first time caller line, you're on the air with Terence McKenna ...
Caller: Yes, Terence, I got so many ideas I want to question you about but I'll try to
limit it. As far as souls go, would we agree that electrochemical energy in the brain
has to go somewhere after death?
TM: Yes, this is what we're saying. But in a sense it withdraws into what I call
hyperspace. In a way you could say that the body is a lower-dimensional sectioning
of a higher dimensional object which is the soul/body complex.

Caller: And the other point I wanted to touch on ... as far as your uniqueness curve,
how do you account for the chaos theory that there are random particles in the
universe affecting the interaction of particles, that they come by ... I will agree with
you that nature as a large system is circular, it recirculates, I mean, there are cycles
...
AB: I'm not sure that that's what the time wave zero theory suggests at all.
TM: No, I think this word you introduced into the question--random--this word is a
word out of probability theory and statistics. I mean, there may be random
processes in the universe, but so far the only ones we've ever found have been
inside random number generators produced by mathematicians. In other words, it's
a nice simple supposition to suppose that there are processes that can be described
as random, but the more we look at nature, the more we find order. Chaos theory is
misunderstood by a lot of people as using the old notion of chaos as disorder, but
what chaos for modern mathematicians is is almost a super kind of order, a super-
fecund medium out of which perturbations of higher states of order can
spontaneously emerge. This is what Ilia Pregosian and Ralph Abraham and all these
people are talking about.
AB: Um, I want to ask you something, Terence. I interviewed a scientist, uh, who
now has a private company called Pear Inc. He produces a computer program which
is a gigantic random number generator designed to run on a good, fast computer,
and it enables you to pull down two pictures. For example, one of random absolute
noise, on the left, and the other, it wouldn't matter, the scene of a mountain, or any
other physical photograph that you might want to bring down. You put them side by
side, and then a process of randomness will begin in the computer, and your job is
to sit in front of the computer and cause the random noise to disappear bringing the
picture into perfect clarity, or you can cause the picture to be completely consumed
by the random noise. And the suggestion is, and there is a rating given at each
sitting, and the suggestion is that you, with your mind, are able to affect a rapidly
generating random number sequence ... generator ... whatever. And by God, you
can sit there and do it.
TM: Yes, there's a site on the web called the Retro-Psychokinesis site where they
claim you not only can move these random number generators around, but you can
move them around in the past. In other words, they invite you to .. numbers are
being flashed on the screen ... they invite you to concentrate on the numbers being
odd or even. And then they demonstrate to a small percentage that people can
actually push this in the direction they want it to go.
AB: So what does that suggest ... it's really the same method I just described to you

... same thing.
TM: Well, but then there's another wrinkle. They tell the people they're generating
the numbers in real time, but they've actually made a tape three weeks before and
put it in a vault and the people are still able to push it the way they want. In other
words, in some sense, they accomplished what they set out to do before they set out
to accomplish it. So yes, there's lots of discussions, statistical studies, and it's very
amenable to being demonstrated on the web., and what it really brings Art is the
sense that physics, which was the paradigmatic science in terms or rigor and reason,
the inmates have taken over the asylum. And the word hasn't reached biology yet.
AB: But that is a form of time travel to the past ...
TM: I think what we're going to discover is that how you move around in time is
not determined by the law of physics but is determined by cultural programming.
And that this is what's gonna tear open shamanism and yoga and some of these
other things. We are far more imprisoned by cultural conventions than we are by
physical laws.
AB: Alright Terence. Wild-card line you're on the air with Terence McKenna ...
where are you?<:P> Caller: Good morning Mr. Bell, this is Robert in the San
Joaquin Valley in California. I have two questions, but Mr. Bell, I want to say first
that I heard earlier on the news that scientists have discovered a substance in cats
brains that enable them to, when they take cat naps, when they wake up it's
instantaneous, and they're very alert. They say that this will lead in two or three
years to a sleeping pill for humans without side effects where when they wake up,
they will wake up instantly and alert.
AB: And we shall call it the cat nap pill.
Caller. Terence, fascinating, sir ... I have two quick questions. The first one, for
most of my life, I've heard people say that everyone has dreams. I never, ever
remember, never recall the dreams. And about eight years ago there was a scientific
report that stated that there is approximately 5% of the population that do not have
dreams. When I got to sleep, it's like a rock. I wanted to mention that, and then I'll
give you my second question and listen to you on the air. The last question, Mr.
Bell had a guest, Ed Dames, remote viewer, he mentioned that in his remote
viewing, that he could not see beyond, was it 2012, Mr. Bell? And Christians refer
to the rapture. I was just wondering ... what your take would be on all of this?
AB: Alright, both good questions. Let's tackle the easiest one first. Dreams. I'm not
aware of a study that suggests that 5% of the population doesn't dream. Most of the

people I've talked to suggest that everybody dreams. Maybe 5% don't remember
them. And we were talking about dreams earlier with respect to DMT ... could there
be people in your opinion Terence, who do not dream at all, and therefore have no
DMT spikes at all?
TM: Well, it's interesting ... I would have thought, as you suggested, that
everybody dreams, bit some people don't remember it, but it is true that I would
guess one in twenty don't respond to DMT. This is very puzzling ... they simply do
not respond to it. And of course, this has never been studied because it's an
underground drug, but there may well be.
And it may be that dreaming is something that's recently arriving in human

evolution and not something we can just take for granted.
AB: So then are we to presume that those who do not dream have not sufficiently
evolved?
TM: Well, I wouldn't put it that way ... everybody has different genetic strengths
and differences, maybe they've got a helluva backswing ... I don't know ...
AB: Or, to be fair, perhaps we can suggest that they are the ones who have evolved
past the need for it?
(Break ...)
AB: What realm are remote viewers operating in, in your view? Is it the same realm
that one might achieve by various methods, including the chemical method you
refer to?
TM: Well, I'm sure you've heard about Bell's non-locality theorem and the rise of
the idea of non-local information in quantum physics. I think what we're gonna
have to face is teh idea that through the imagination, all information throughout
space and time is somehow accessible. The body can localize consciousness
because consciousness associated with the body has developed to protect the body,
basically as a threat-detection device. But the imagination, which we tend to think
of as something we 'make up' or we create, I think is actually something we're
imbedded in, and if you can filter out the noise sufficiently, something like viewing
at a distance or remote viewing ... these things are a commonplace in these
shamanic and psychedelic societies.
AB: But even aside from those, in the discipline ... now, when I say remote
viewing, I refer to the discipline that the armed services came up with to spy.

Naturally, you know the armed services are going to use it for military purposes.
Now, in that process, there are very specific protocols that endeavor to erase the
imagination, ensuring the purity of the information received.
TM: Well, this is the projected imagination of the individual meeting the incoming
signal of the great beyond, the great 'whatever it is', and yes, I think a talented
remote viewer is someone almost empty of projection, so that they can actually feel
or intuit the incoming signal. I imagine that it's a very delicate thing, but I also
imagine with the proper kind of feedback to tell you when you are doing well, it's
probably the kind of thing that can be coaxed out of most people. As I said in the
last hour, we are more imprisoned by what we think of as culture than we are by the
laws of physics.
AB: Alright, wild-card line, you're on the air ... where are you.
Caller: I'm Richard and I'm in St. Peters MO Mr. McKenna has been giving me
some insight. I have been working with a system of divination called geomancy,
and it consists of the generation of figures consisting of points, I use dice to
generate the figures. Once the figures are generated, a reading, in other words, a
combination of figures, gives insights into future events. It would seem as though ...
I've been working on this for three years and I've got it down to the point where I've
got a card-reading system which is self-programmable. Which to me is fascinating
because my clients have in some ways focused on the dice to create the pattern, and
by creating the pattern I get insight into when things are going to occur and what
things will be happening to them, and it's on the money. I'd love to say it's 100%,
but it seems to me, other than synchronicity, that consciousness with a simple focus-
-dice--can travel through time. Which I believe is what Mr. McKenna is talking
about.
AB: Well, maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. It's the same idea, or sounds like the same
idea, but without the same documentation, and a flawless performance. Terence?
TM: Well, all over the world there are these different divinatory systems. ... the
Chinese geomancy, tarot cards, the Maya have a system of throwing crystals and
small rocks. And skeptics who deal with these things which are usually anti- the
paranormal always come back and say, 'Well it's uncanny, it seems to work.' And I
think the world-wide presence of these divining systems that seem to work but
which we won't admit work because we can't imagine a scientific principle that
would allow them to work, they're really signaling to us that the universe is really
more complicated than our scientific principles are able to make room for.
AB: So, he's on the right track ...

TM: He's on the right track. It's always about a set of defined elements, whether
they're hexagrams, cards, stones ... and then a randomizing of them--either a
shaking or a tossing or choosing or something like that--and then out of the human
imagination comes associative projections which are always strangely right on the
money. And this indicates to me there's a resonance between the human psyche and
the world which is invisible to the ego, and that can only be coaxed into an
observational state by tricking the ego through a kind of random process like
drawing cards, or dice.
AB: Sounds to me like you have a far more refined process but I heard the
similarities. Okay, here's another one for you ... back to time travel ... just a thought
to ponder regarding time travel ... you're going to have to listen carefully ... Terence
made a statement regarding the possibility of eliminating your own existence by
killing your own grandfather, as an example. If time travel was possible, it would
be impossible to eliminate yourself by killing your own grandfather. The reason for
this being that if time travel is possible, then time would be kind of like a loop tape
which is constantly replaying itself ... by killing your own grandfather you would
cease to exist, therefore as the loop replays itself you would not exist to be able to
kill your own grandfather. Consider it. You travel back in time, point a gun at and
shoot your grandfather to death prior to his ever having children. You instantly
cease to exist, but if you cease to exist, who would pull the trigger on the gun as the
time loop replays itself? Confusing, but interesting, and worth pondering.
TM: Well that is the grandfather paradox. They perfectly stated it. I don't exactly
hear it as an objection to what I said. That is a perfect stating of why many people
have thought time travel was impossible, or that you could only travel forward into
the future.
AB: Okay, east of the rockies you're on the line with Terence McKenna ... hello.
Caller: Hello ...Terence, from what I heard, you are obviously a disciple of Satan,
and I have to say that I want to know why no scientist has ever disproven the
resurrection of Jesus Christ.
AB: Okay Terence, Oh, disciple of Satan ..
Caller: Yes, he is a disciple of the devil ...
AB: Okay, well, let's get his reaction to that ... we're talking of these matters so it is
worth some consideration ... Terence, how do you respond.
TM: Well, if I am a disciple of Satan, it's an unknowing disciple. I am ... at your

break someone said I was a heretic ... I certainly am a heretic.
Caller: You're not a heretic ... you're deceived ... you're deceived by Satan. When
you die, you will know that Jesus Christ is God.
TM: Well, perhaps ... my position on all of this is that we're not in this world to
choose between good ideologies and bad ideologies; I think that sort of ... I don't
know, maybe this is middle age setting in on me, but I've come to the conclusion
that all ideologies are the enemies of human freedom, and we haven't made
progress when you choose existentialism over Christianity or anything over
anything. Real maturity begins when you notice that these ideologies are cultural
furniture.
Caller: So Jesus Christ was a liar ...
TM: No, no ... he was a piece of cultural furniture inside western civilization. But
let me turn to this question of the resurrection for a moment which I find a little
more interesting ... I can't remember in which gospel it is ... the caller probably can
tell us .. but when the Mary's go to the tomb the morning after the resurrection and
Christ is there, he says to them as they approach, he says "Women, touch me not,
for I am not yet fully of the nature of the Father." And I have never heard any
Christian enthusiast discuss exactly what this means. It's a fascinating statement.
Here is Christ, resurrected, having overcome death, standing alive at the side of the
tomb, but saying "I am not yet completely of the nature of the father." And what
this suggests to me is some kind of cryptobiological process that we're dealing with
here. I don't think science can prove or disprove the resurrection because science
never deals with unique events. If we had a thousand resurrections, I suppose they
could statistically examine it and make a judgment, but these unique historical
events are more properly the study of historians.
AB: Let me ask you in your own little way as a historian, as you have looked back
to develop your model, when you get to the time of Christ, what kind of a peak do
you see?
TM: Fascinating question ... At that point in the wave there is a unique signature
that doesn't occur anywhere else in the wave. So in a sense it does indicate the life
of Christ as being incredibly unique. But recall I said it never says what will
happen, it just says where to look. And what makes the call on Christ a little
difficult is that Christ shared the earth with Augustus Caesar; in fact, the story of
Christ's birth mentions that Joseph and Mary were going because of the census of
the world that Caesar has called. Well, Caesar Augustus is one of the greatest
military and political geniuses of all time, so he's in the same part of the wave as

Christ. I don't know how to tease them apart, but I can certainly tell you that the
time wave tells us that the period from 15 BC to 40 AD was extremely novel.
AB: I have spoken with a number of remote viewers, and they have made a unique
statement ... many of them ... that approximately at 2012, uh, they can look no
further, they run into a sort of a brick wall, if you will, and there is nothing beyond.
But what they do see and describe is a gigantic spiritual event of some magnitude
which they're unable to discern the precise nature of.
TM: That's ... I could climb aboard all of this. I think we're headed for everything
we can imagine. In other words, the resurrection and the life, the overcoming of 3-
dimensional space and time, time travel, dark light, immortality, planetary telepathy
consciousness out of the body ... it will be delivered by human hands out of the
human imagination under the prompting of the gods and the entities and the forces
in the human unconscious.
AB: It is fortuitous, Terence, that we are doing this program and recording all of
this for history, for the time after they toss you into the volcano. West of the rockies
you're on the air with Terence McKenna ... hello.
Caller: I'm in Prince George, B.C., way up here in Canada, friendly neighbor to the
north. I'm just getting a little disheartened by these weird Christians, but that's
beside the point. I wanted to ask Terence if he'd ever read any Castaneda?
TM: Oh yeah ... I read a lot of the early stuff.
Caller: There's a later one called the Fire From Within, and for any viewers out
there who are digging this, which I am ... I'm only 21, but I've been waiting a
thousand years to hear this program.
AB: Look I mostly have listeners ... I'm not saying some are not viewing ...mostly
listeners.
TM: The ones who are of my persuasion might be viewing, Art.
Caller: Anyway, I just wanted to say that the Fire From Within covers exactly
what's been discussed here tonight, and for any listeners out there, I'd just like to
say that if they're into it, and maybe Art yourself, if you're diggin' what Terence is
saying tonight, maybe you should read that book ...
AB: Maybe I should read that book ... Ah, so Terence, you've not read that book?

TM: Not that particular one ... I've read the early Castaneda things ...
Caller: What do you think about it?
TM: Well, I think in the early ones he was truer in his description of the message.
In other words, I think that any claim to be able to penetrate these places regularly
and effectively that isn't psychedelically based, in other words, that doesn't involve
alteration of consciousness, has to be looked at very carefully. And what goes on in
those Castaneda books is that he starts out talking about datura and peyote and this
and that, but then in the later books it becomes more about these techniques and
quasi-yogic stuff ...
AB: But why is it not possible, Terence, that once one is introduced through the
chemical method to these alternative realities that one eventually may not discern a
path without their use?
TM: Well, in principle it's possible. It's just simply in a lifetime of looking into this
I've never seen it in a convincing form. And a point that needs to be made here is
that the psychedelic experience is not like meditation .. it's not like anything else.
Meditation is pretty ... you know, nobody goes to the ashram in the morning with
their knees beating together in terror over what's about to overcome them ... on the
other hand, DMT test pilots are dry-mouthed and white-knuckled. This is the real
thing.
Caller: He says it becomes a matter of saving and rechanneling energy ...
TM: Well, if you can do it without the plant ally, I take my hat off to you. If I
found it happening to me not in the presence of the ally, I would be extremely
agitated and upset. I don't want to be able to achieve these states on the 'nach' ...
they're too titanically alien and strange ...
AB:: Oh, that's interesting ... you are suggesting that uh, uh, that you are very
comfortable with the chemical avenue, because uh, to have it otherwise would be so
disconcerting as to possibly challenge one's, uh, sanity?
TM: Exactly. You've said it all, Art. It's so nice to have a control on it. No, I won't
be abducted tonight unless I take this ...
AB: I'm not sure, Terence, but it may bother me because I understand you so well
...
TM: I thought it might ... I thought you and I were kindred souls when I looked at

your book about the quickening. Art, I think anybody who is stretching into this
stuff comes to the same conclusion, that things are moving faster and faster in a
very bizarre direction ...
(Break)
AB: Wildcard line you're on the air with Terence McKenna ... where are you?
Caller; This is Tony in Las Vegas ... I wanted to ask you a couple questions ... I
think one reason that people, like remote viewers, lose credibility is because like
psychics they have a distasteful track record and don't predict stuff like the
Oklahoma bombing or a bank robbery before it happens ... do you think that time
machines might have something to do with something that's very normal in nature
such as extreme shock wave technologies and just normal physical things that
happen generally in the mainstream physics that will create synthetic time travel
realities?
TM: Well, I don't know from what direction time travel is going to come. It used to
be completely unrespectable to discuss it in the scientific literature, and if you run
literature searches now, you'll find that in the past ten years this has gone from
unmentionable to quite respectable. There's a book called Time Travel in Physics
and Science Fiction by (Natham) that will definitely bring you up to speed on the
many approaches to time travel. It's been known since 1948 ... there was a paper by
Kurt Goedel with a scheme for time travel that would work ... it simply required
that you spin a cylinder half the size of the solar system at the speed of light ... but
everybody agrees that if you could do that and then travel along its transverse axis
you would be moved back in time. So sort of in the way we started with vacuum
tubes and now go the Pentium we have now very Rube Goldberg approaches to
time travel, but I'm sure by 2012 we will have brought this to a kind of perfection.
AB: And do you suspect Terence that time travel, uh, will manifest itself from the
physical, from physics, or that time travel, uh, will be manifested, uh, from within?
TM: I think we're going to find a way basically to obliterate the difference. You
know, it's only been 500 years since some Europeans sailed over the horizon and
found the lost half of this planet, and I think the human imagination is as solid as
the real estate you're standing on., Art, and then when this is understood, there will
be a kind of migration into the human imagination. And this ... time travel, space
flight, immortality, we have these terms for these things, but what is really coming
is going to be all this and more. Our way of talking about it is inevitably incredibly
quaint, because we talk about it inside the very culture it's going to make obsolete.

AB: It sure would do that. Terence, a lighter question ... this comes from my wife at
the beginning of the program ... she knew that you were the one to follow on in
Timothy Leary's footsteps, so she thought she would ask you ... it is rumored, or it
is perhaps a legend, that Timothy had squirreled away like a treasure trove at some
secret location 25,000 hits blue Sandoz ... where is it? Do you know where it is?
TM: My goodness, Art, your wife follows these things ... where is the blue Sandoz
.... well, my lips are sealed When they open the tombs on Cydonia I'll issue a press
statement.
AB: Alright, we'll leave it right there. West of the rockies you're on the air with
Terence McKenna, hello ...
Caller: Hello ... I am in San Francisco, my name is Ryan ... It is great to talk to both
of you. I am of the belief that two types of people in the world --people who have
had psychedelic experiences and people who haven't--- the vast difference in their
ways of thinking once they have had a psychedelic experience ...
AB: That's why it's illegal ...
Caller: Yeah ... I wanted to ask, what is the direction that he sees this state now
where it is illegal and why it is keeping, I think, our civilization down to its
dreadful state ... I think that it, you know, through mass awareness somehow ... I
just wish it could be legal so that people could go to the next level that we are
coming to so fast ... like things speeding up ...
AB: Did you say next level? You're calling from San Francisco, not Rancho Santa
Fe, right?
TM: Let me say this ... I mean, I'm a bit of a pessimist on this subject. Because I
take psychedelics so seriously, I can't imagine them ever being really legal unless
there's a total social transformation because my analysis of it is, the reason
everybody from a Marxist state to a Christian oligarchy to a high-tech industrial
democracy can get together and agree that psychedelics are a terrible terrible thing
is because the social effects of psychedelics being taken by large numbers of people
is a kind of deconditioning from the cultural myths, whatever they are. It's no knock
on any given society, it's just that if people start taking psychedelics, they start
questioning what they've been told about reality. And culture is in the business of
keeping you inside a set of predetermined answers to those questions.
AB: Well, based on that, then, perhaps legalization day is 2012 ...

TM: There you go, Art, there's an apocalypse that would shake our world and leave
the heavens intact ...
AB: The day the drug war ends ... fist time caller line ...
Caller: Hi Art ... I'm actually also from San Francisco ... I just wanted to say that I
am a professional stand-up comedian, in the vein of Lenny Bruce, so I do a lot of
research, and I've read a lot of your writing, Mr. McKenna, including The Archaic
Revival and Invisible Landscape, and also the CD you have with Space Time
Continuum ...
TM: Oh yeah ... the alien dream time ...
Caller: Yeah, and I'm also familiar with Mr. Sheldrake's writings as well, and I
would say to the 25% dissenter faxes that you've been receiving Art, that they are
probably saying that because they are not familiar with what Mr. McKenna is
saying.
AB: Well, and a lot of them never will be, it'll go right past them, and they hear one
thing only and they see devils, and that's okay ...
Caller: Actually, in relation to what you're saying there, with the gentleman who
considered Mr. McKenna to be in league with Satan ... the truth does not have an
ideological agenda or anything like that. My question to you is, you're familiar with
the writings of John Lily?
TM: Sure ...
Caller: In my neighborhood there's actually an isolation tank center and I go down

there regularly with mushrooms ... I'll hop into the tank while I'm doing mushrooms
and whatnot ... uh, I'm very fascinated with your writings on DMT, and what I'd
like to know is ... how would I be able to locate DMT or the plants that it comes
from?
AB: Now I don't know that we can tell that on the air ...
TM: Well, we can say something ... we've already said that it's right behind your
eyebrows, so that's one thing ... the other thing, the real practical answer is, go to
the internet, in terms of ... if you want to locate plants in your ecosystem ... there's a
vast discussion of this, and incredible enthusiastic community, but as Art says,
we've already pushed the envelope, I don't think we can start peddling Schedule 1
substances on the air, nor would we wish to.

AB: Nor would you want me to, sir, because then you might not hear me anymore
... uh, look, it's a lot less dangerous than a lot of other crap on the internet ...
building missiles and bombs and all the rest of that, so uh ... use a search engine ...
that's what they're there for. Uh, wild card line, you're on the air with Terence
McKenna ... hello ...
Caller; Wow, I actually got through ... from Madison, WI ... first of all, I talked to
you about a year ago, and you were telling me that I was doing myself a lot of harm
by using psychedelics. I think Terence is good proof that someone could turn out
alright ...
AB: No, I didn't tell you that ... I didn't tell you you were doing yourself a lot of
harm ...
Caller: I thought you did ...
AB: I wouldn't make that judgment ... that's something that only you could
conclude ...
Caller: But also, I want to make a suggestion for a guest, I think Terence might
have heard of him. Have you ever heard of Douglas Rushkoff?
TM: Oh, yeah, I know Doug ... just what he needs: more publicity ...
Caller: Terence, I have a video called Alien Dreamtime, and I really like it.
TM: Yeah, that's a thing I did a few years ago with a band called Space Time
Continuum.
AB: What was the essence of it, Terence?
TM: Well, it was a rave in San Francisco, and if you can imagine this, I talked
about the impact of psilocybin on human evolution to a back beat. This is
something we haven't gotten into here, Art, but I have a whole other rap on how
mushrooms actually impacted and caused the breakthrough to self-reflecting human
consciousness. We'll have to save that one till next time ...
AB: I guess so .. east of the rockies ...
Caller: This is Larry in Peoria ... this is very interesting because I just recently read
excerpts from the Psychedelic Experience by Timothy Leary, , a take-off on the

Tibetan Book of the Dead ... and I missed the first part of the show so I might have
missed this, but I want to know what is the difference between DMT and LSD?
TM: Well, LSD lasts hours and hours and tends to be, I think my own phrase is,
abrasively psychoanalytic. Essentially, I think LSD does what most people think
psychedelic drugs do ... they cause you to review past memories, they cause you to
see your life in a different light, and so on ... DMT is not like that, it seems to go
beyond the personal dimension, it doesn't matter who you are or where you started
from ... it carries you into its own world -- a world that is alien in its own terms and
doesn't have a lot of information in it about your psychology or your dilemmas. So
it's less useful for psychoanalysis and more useful for exploring what I consider to
be pretty dramatic paranormal dimensions, considering they're so easily accessed.
Caller: All this talk about dimensions going to the next level ... I just had a
psychedelic experience recently when I had a meditation on the nature of the
universe as being like a geometric structure that's so immensely more vast and
diverse than you can really explain.
TM: Well, I think you know there's the vastness of space and time that we know
about, but then we look into the microdimension and we see how much there is in
the atomic and subatomic world, I mean, the world is an amazing and dynamicplace
... and this is why I am so down on ideologies, because I think they're dusty mirrors
to hold up to the splendor of the self-presence of the living universe ...
AB: Uh, here's, I believe, a McKenna quote: "Western civilization is a loaded gun
pointed at the head of this planet."
TM: Yup ... and what I think I was referring to there was resource extraction,
propaganda, pollution of the atmosphere, and this sort of thing. If we continue to
practice our cultural values as we have practiced, we're going to make the earth
unfit for our children, which is a sin and a tragedy of such magnitude we don't even
have a name for it.
AB: Boy, I sure agree with that. And then this: "LSD is a drug that occasionally
causes psychotic behaviorin people who have not taken it." Terence McKenna
quoting Tim Leary in Los Angeles in 1991. Accurate?
TM: Well, I tried to give that quote to Tim, and he swore to me he'd never said that,
so it's sort of hanging out there in the air. But it's a very funny quote because I think
it makes it clear to people how agitated you can become by drugs you haven't taken.
And how often the people the people who have the most negative drug reactions are
the people who didn't take the drug.

AB: And one last as we head toward the bottom of the hour: "The mind rests on a
foundation of chemical machinery."
TM: Yes, it RESTS on a foundation of chemical machinery, it is not simply the

product of chemical machinery, any more than I am an automobile when I drive it.
(Break)
AB: Timothy Leary, as you well know, has been launched into orbit with a number
of other notables, and once again referencing that 25,000 hits of blue Sandoz, do
you suppose it's possible that Timothy had them launched with himself and that
orbital decay will provide one great blast of acid rain at about 2012?
TM: Well, he did want to prove that you can take it with you ...
AB: Alright ... caller?
Caller: Terence, I've read, I think, all of your books, if not most of them, and in
True Hallucinations there's a part where you have a mushroom in the hut with you
and your brother and he makes a sound that you describe as "unless you were there
you wouldn't understand the sound" ... makes the mushroom glow, or appear to, and
you were speaking before about human consciousness interacting through
resonance with the universe around us. Could you explain how those two things tie
in, and in doing so, have you read The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbott?
TM: I have read it, he was a friend of mine who unfortunately died a few years ago.
Resonance is the principle--almost magical--of action at a distance ... you know, we
can play an open note on the cello and the piano fifty feet across the room will
sound in the same octave. So resonance, we know it exists, it's a musical
phenomenon, but what we need to realize I think is that resonance is built into time.
Time in a sense, you could say that a given moment in time is a kind of
hologramatic interference pattern of past time. And I consider those past times to be
in resonance. And one of the things Art and I haven't discussed tonight about my
time wave is that it does allow you to look at a certain period of time and decide
what it was in resonance with in the past and those past epochs that are influencing
it, their influence can be seen in popular fads, furniture styles, what movies are out,
that sort of thing.
Caller: Now, with DMT, you say it's produced in our bodies. Can the DMT
molecule in the brain change our electron spin resonance in the molecules in our
brain, and can that possibly make our brain act as an antenna which allows us to see

all those other things that you're talking about?
TM: Well, these are the kinds of ideas that my brother and I were playing with
clear back in the early '70's, and one of the tragedies of the repression of
psychedelics was not that they were taken out of the hands of the curious public,
but that they were made off-limits to scientific research. Not that anybody put up a
sign, but it was very clearly understood that pharmocologists who specialized in
psychedelics could expect to be passed over, not promoted, not given the plumb
jobs. I could spiel off a dozen questions, very interesting central questions about the
mechanism of psychedelics that we could answer with ordinary clinical studies. It's
just that how can you do ordinary clinical studies on substances that the government
has made illegal? It's impossible.
Caller: I've played around a lot with EEG the last few years, and I find that I do
serendipitous things, unplanned. What physicist is it who says that time is nature's
way of keeping things from happening all at once? I wanted to get back into physics
... almost cosmic physics and having to do with black holes ... and I wanted to ask
you about how you felt about the black hole being the ultimate recycling device in
the universe?
TM: Well, it certainly is this ... anything which falls into a black hole is
deconstructed down to spin and angular momentum, and all other information is
stripped out of it. I think, you know, if there can be gravitational wells like that,
then I think there can also be the kind of novelty wells that I'm suggesting.
Caller: Novelty wells?
TM: Statistical probability is not a very clear way of looking at the universe. If in
fact probability varies through space and time of any given event, then there will be
areas of extremely high improbability and conversely, probability. So I think we've
gotta get past this idea of time as a smooth surface, and begin to think of it as a kind
of landscape, as a place where some things are more probable in some places, and
other things more probable in others. You know, you look for water in the bottom
of a valley, you look for glaciers up on the slopes. I think time has a topography, it
is a topological surface of some sort, and science in the west has just completely
sailed past all this.
In Newton it's described as pure duration, in other words, perfect flatness. Then
Einstein comes along and he says, well, no, in the presence of massive gravitational
objects, space-time has a very smooth and slight curvature. What I'm saying that
even at local scales, time is quite variable, and when we explode time at any scale
we discover the same fractal patterns as we're seeing on scales far above and far

below it. So really, what it is is a fourier transform or something like that, it's a
holographic matrix that is self-similar on many scales. So the organization of a
galaxy, the organization of an atom, these things in my theory are morphologically
linked; they look that way because they are linked across scale and across space and
time by an underlying architecture of the universe.
You know, there's a big mystery now in cosmology that's that dark matter mystery
... where is 90% of the matter? For the galaxies to hang together under the laws of
gravity, 90% of them must be missing. Well, I say there's no missing matter ...
what's missing here are some laws ...
Caller: Could it be consciousness itself?
TM: Well, it's this appetite for complexity that every particle in the universe
participates in. The galaxies hang together as spirals because it's a more novel thing
to do, not because they are under the pull of gravity, but because there is a cosmic
law of aggregation for novelty that we've missed.
Caller: Would Fourier be a way of measuring that, a fourier measurement of the

brain itself, or eeg?
TM: Well, you could measure it in a fourier matrix, you could measure it in many
different kinds of matrices. The point is to demonstrate it to somebody outside the
system who's looking at it. I think the great breakthrough in mathematical modeling
of nature in the last 20 years has been the discovery of fractals and self-similarity
on many scales. And this is part of that.
What I'm saying really is that time is a fractal structure. It can be defined by a
limited set of variables and then iterated on the microscale, the macroscale, the
human scale ... they're all operating on the same architectural constraints but at
different scales.
Caller: When I talk to my friends in the eeg world, they think I' m nuts... when I
speak in these terms, it's like in a big hall ...
TM: There's a lot of confusion in the sciences right now ... the complexities people
are not talking to the dynamics people, the poor materialists have all been crowded
into biology, meanwhile over in quantum physics they're talking like occultists, and
none of the news has reached psychology and sociology yet. The house of science
is in incredible disarray, and it's because science's wish to describe nature, they've
now dispensed with all the easy stuff, now we're asking questions like what is
language, what is mind, what is process. These are very deep and difficult

questions, and I think they're going to cause a revolution in science and a

reformation in its methods or science is not going to be adequate to the game.
AB: Well, perhaps after some period of anarchy. East of the rockies ...
Caller: I just want to start by sayings thanks ... I wanted to start by commenting on
a couple of things ... I'm looking forward to 2012, and looking forward to being part
of human evolution, and being in control of that. I want to say about the throwing
out of the rocks. It seems that God has already thrown out the rocks on this planet,
that's the way things are, that's the planet as we have it. I've had some psychedelic
experiences and I'm not finished yet, but my personal belief is that you achieve true
enlightenment after being sober and meditating in sobriety and getting inside
yourself. The truth is not outside, it's inside.
AB: Terence, do you contemplate the possibility that your trip will be complete
before 2012, your personal trip? That you will conclude at some point that you've
done as much as you need to do and know what you need to know, and don't need
to do any more?
TM: I can imagine that ... What I would like to do is take my ideas and turn them
over to a general community of interested people, and let the chips fall where they
may. You know, science is the only human endeavor where you actually get points
for proving you're wrong. And I love that approach. I'm not interested in
pontificating or building dogma or founding a cult, I'm interested in the ongoing
adventure, which is a collective adventure, of generating ideas, testing them against
reality and the evidence, discussing them with other people, and then going on to
build a better idea. And I cannot believe that time wave zero is finished or complete
because I have finished with it. I'm hoping that like work done by greats in the past,
this thing can be validated as a real insight into how nature works.
AB: Right, well that would have been an arrogant attitude, and I'm glad to see you
not displaying it.
TM: Yes, I would like to see this thing broken on the wheel of rational discourse,
or progressively advanced to new levels.
Caller: Quick question ... I just read Food of the Gods, about early protohominids
encountering psychotropic plants, psilocybin being the catalyst for this incredible
leap in human consciousness ... what about the next step in our evolution? Do you
see it coming as a result of some psychoactive substance that we've either yet to
develop or encounter?

TM: Well, I think that we have encountered these things. I think the enormous
creativity of the last half of the 20th century is a direct consequence of the rise of
psychedelic chemistry and the breakdown of barriers between cultures. In other
words, most of the people designing and building the internet have psychedelics in
their past. Most of the people in the music business, in fashion, in media, in
scientific research, medical research, architecture, the dirty little secret about the
creativity of 20th century civilization, at least in the last half of the century, is that it
rests so firmly on a psychedelic base, and yet we deny that.
AB: I've got one final question that I have to pose to you, with regard to our
discussion on the internet. I interviewed Charles Ostman, an expert in
nanotechnology ... he predicts within the next few years, or even less, we will begin
to encounter sentient entities within the internet.
TM: Artificial intelligences ... I believe that will happen. Hans Moravick has
written a lot about this ... he'd be a guy for your show, Art ... he's talked about how
these AI's, these artificial intelligences, they learn 50,000 times faster than the
human being. Well, if you turn one loose on the internet, where it can talk to all
these computers, it can make 50,000 years of progress in one year. Moravick say's
we're not even gonna know what hit us when these things come into being.

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What is Terence McKenna's theory about time?

What is Terence McKenna's theory about time?

What are the two qualities that McKenna says are locked in a struggle?

What are the two qualities that McKenna says are locked in a struggle?

Terence McKenna interviewed by Art Bell, 5/22/1997

Terence McKenna on Art Bell, 5/22/1997

TM: Well, so in looking at this, I created a vocabulary ... actually I borrowed it

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So I've taken this as a universal law, affecting historical processes, biological

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AB: You bet it wasn't.

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AB: Is it a linear process or is it an exponentially acceleration process?

TM: It's an exponentially accelerating process which leads to a kind of end-of-the-

AB: I'm on to it I guess in a more pedestrian perspective than yourself after

AB: I think you're right, Terence. ...

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AB: Terence, what is your web site?

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AB: Since '77. And before that?

AB: Um, you knew Timothy Leary, yes?

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TM: Well, by my understanding of this theory, there can be no misses. In other

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time, so we have to be right all of the time.

AB: So you're telling me you are.

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AB: Terence, how long have you been working on this?

TM: Since 1971.

AB: What part of south America, Terence?

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AB: No it isn't ... what is it?

TM: Well, that's what it is ... dimethyltriptamine. It occurs in a number of plant

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worse for wear.

AB: Okay, hold on ... another break ...

TM: Oh, yes ...

AB: You're familiar then, with the prime directive ...

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AB: That clearly is a process that is underway now ...

AB: Five minutes ...

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TM: It's very different. LSD is a kind of psychological self-examination and

AB: What is the source of DMT? Is it a manufactured drug?

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TM: Are you talking about death?

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sleep and the moment of death ...

TM: In deep sleep ...?

AB: No, in what institution there has been confirmation ...

TM: It's a catch-22 ... we're all "holding," Art.

TM: Well, I think this was Adam's fall ...

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AB: So in other words, linearity ends at that instant ...

AB: Are they one and the same, in your view?

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