Bleed Valve
Bleed Valve
Bleed Valve
During accelaration and decelaration mode of the turbine, servo valve (electrically
operated) ahead of the bleed valve is actuated from mark V.
And when the servo valve is energised, a portion of the compressor discharge air passes
through the servo vlave line and this air pressure opens the bleed valve (2
nos)mechanically.
(2) i am told of a situation when bleed valve trouble alarm has appeared in mark v (when
the turbine was in full load), but on actual inspection the operational personnel have
found both the bleed valves actually closed. What could be the reason?
(3) Is the above case may be due to any problem in servo valve ahaed of bleed valve?
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Generally, attached to the valve(s) is a limit switch (device 33CB-n, where "n" is usually
1 or 2, depending on the number of compressor bleed valves). The limit switches are to
be adjusted to sense when the valve is fully open--in other words, the switch is to be
actuated when the valve is fully open, and, generally, the switch contacts are to be closed
when the valve itself is fully open.
The compressor bleed valves are to be open during starting, acceleration, and shutdown--
to protect the axial compressor against stalling and surging during acceleration and
deceleration. (Hence, that's why the limit switches are usually set to sense a fully open
condition.)
The solenoid-operated valve, usually device 20CB-1, is generally in the air supply line to
the compressor bleed valve actuator. When 20CB-1 is energized (usually with 125 VDC),
the solenoid causes the valve to port axial compressor discharge air (pressure) to the
actuator(s) of the compressor bleed valve(s) to close the valves.
Since the compressor bleed valves are air-operated and usually located in the (very hot)
turbine compartment, if there is a failure of the solenoid-operated valve 20CB-1, there is
very little one can do to close the compressor bleed valves manually. The springs which
keep the valves open when there is no air pressure from the solenoid-operated 20CB-1
are usually very strong, and there is usually no method for manually operating the valve.
The compressor bleed valve trouble alarms are usually generated by the limit switches,
sensing the valve(s) are open when they should be closed, or closed when they should be
open. The limit switches do fail, and they do require occasional adjustment (sometimes
the nuts holding them in place do vibrate loose).
In your description of the system, there is very low axial compressor discharge pressure
during starting and acceleration--when it's very important that the compressor bleed
valves be open. And, that's also why the compressor bleed valves are usually spring-
loaded to open, and use air pressure to close, and why they are closed when the unit is
running using axial compressor discharge pressure.
There are usually piping system diagrams, called P&IDs (Piping & Instrumentation
Diagrams) or Schematic Piping Diagrams, depending on the packager of the turbine-
generator. These drawings are CRITICAL to understanding the operation of the unit. If
you haven't already done so, you should locate and study these drawings--they have
LOTS of good information and can provide lots of clues to how the unit operates.
markvguy
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This author has seen broken springs on a couple of very old valves (the springs used to
open the valve when the solenoid is de-energized.) There is also an "arm" (mechanical
linkage) to the armature of the solenoid which has been known to need some tender,
loving care (also known as cleaning and greasing with an appropriate grease--the
"mechanical department" should be able to advise on this...).
If that doesn't return the valve to normal operation, install the spare valve!
These valves, most of which are "buried" in the bottoms of the Turbine Compartments of
Frame 5s and Frame 6s, require periodic maintenance--but almost never get any....
Several sites have relocated the valves to outside the turbine compartments, under the
walkway somewhere where the indicators (YES--there is actually a position indicator on
these valves, which can't be seen unless one is directly in front of the valve which is
nearly impossible to do when the unit is running!!!) are easily visible and
maintenance/replacement is made much easier. Requires some new conduit and tubing--
but is well worth the time and expense.
markvguy
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Posted by Carlos on 3 May, 2007 - 2:17 am
Hi all,
I want to share my experience with the 20CB solenoid. On our three Frame9 GE turbines,
the inside of those 20cb solenoids were totally destroyed by rust. This was related to the
high humidity of the compressed air. So if the solenoid was actuated or not, the result was
the same. We have replaced all these valves after 8 years.
Best regards,
carlos
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Regards to all.
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If the unit is out of warranty, you are free to relocate the device to a more convenient
location. As was mentioned earlier--many owners/operators have done so!
Of course, you don't want to relocate it fifty feet (16 meters) away from the current
location, but putting it outside the turbine compartment, under a walkway, for example, is
perfectly acceptable. The determining factor has to be the time required to VENT the
pressure from the actuators when the bleed valves are commanded to open. If the tubing
run is very long, it will increase the time required to vent the pressure to the point the
valves will open.
markvguy
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So, if you relocate the valve and there is a low-point in the air supply piping, make sure
there is a bleed orifice in the low-point to get rid of the condensate.
markvguy
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You have mentioned that, the Bleed valves will open during deceleration to protect the
axial compressor against stalling and surging!!!!!
Assume that the machine is running at full load hence, the Bleed valves are closed. Also
assume that the packing of solenoid-operated valve 20CB-1 got sticky so, the solenoid
valve remains always open supplying axial compressor discharge air pressure to the bleed
valves independently of whether the 20CB-1 is energized by 125 VDC or not. Further
assume that an emergency shutdown is initiated (due to detection of HIGH- HIGH
Bearing Vibration, for example). Then, the machine starts decelerating with the solenoid-
operated valve 20CB-1 fail to close and the Bleed valve remain in closed position while
the machine is decelerating!!!!!!!!!
What will happen to the axial compressor in this case?
Is there any other alternative method to protect the axial compressor in this case?
Thank you
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If the compressor bleed valves fail to open because the solenoid-operated valve fails to
open when de-energized then there will be some fairly noisy deceleration--accompanied
by high vibration and very sharp loss of speed. This author has experienced it twice, and
both times the units (a Frame 7EA and a Frame 6B) survived with no detectable damage
(no rubs, no rotor lock-up--nothing). Once, the unit was very throroughly borescoped and
no damage was found whatsoever--except in the opinion of the Customer who felt that
GE should provide a brand new axial compressor, even though the unit was still under
warranty and if it failed after the borescope GE would have made good on the repairs, or
replacement, as necessary. (This does nothing for the lost revenue, of course, but in GE's
experienced opinion the risk was low and that unit has been in flawless operation for
more than 20 years as of this writing!)
People can punch holes in protection schemes all day long until the cows come home to
lay down and chew their cud--it's a fairly popular sport in many parts of the world, even
commonly practiced by GE field engineers, though usually amongst themselves.
This author has said this many times in this forum: Once the unit is out of warranty, the
owner and/or operator is free to modify his unit and its control- and protection schemes
as is seen fit. However, they assume (as in "take responsibility for") the liability for the
consequences of their modifications--and so most Customers don't make modifications
since they, and their insurance company(s), are highly "allergic" to risk--the risk that
comes with having to fix some collateral damage which might occur when every possible
contingent situation was not considered and something was damaged as a result of a
"site-developed" modification.
One can ask GE to engineer and provide such schemes through their "CM&U group"
(Conversions, Modifications, and Uprates)--but generally the cost is prohibitive, and
most of that is because GE must add some amount of money to the price in order to cover
potential risks associated with one-off and non-standard schemes, so most Customers opt
not to purchase the schemes
And, this is where experience is most valuable--and why people pay for experience when
hiring individuals or consultants, or choosing suppliers. Experience provides a level of
risk-management that isn't possible with a lack of experience--the ability to recognize
what is most important and critical and how much attention (monitoring and protection)
the situation requires or demands.
Lastly, this author does not design axial compressors, turbines, generators, the auxiliary
systems or the control and protection schemes used to monitor and protect the systems.
He has, on many occasions, been forced to justify the schemes; some times it's difficult.
But, there's no such thing as a free lunch and you can rest assured that GE employs some
very intelligent and talented people who have used the Company's collective experience
over decades of producing combustions and equipment to provide a level of control and
protection that they feel minimizes their warranty costs, primarily, and provides their
Customers with a reliable and adequately protected unit--otherwise known as risk
management.
When considering the effects of not having redundant devices or being able to anticipate
and protect against every possible failure, try to consider other factors, such as risk
management and cost when designing and manufacturing engineered systems,
This author has never been at a site which routinely removes and inspects the 20CB-1
solenoid-operated valve--until they do so for a failure analysis! Someone at their site has
determined--knowingly or unknowingly--that it's not cost-effective to do so. This is also
risk management--of a sort--not spending money until a device fails.
The name is markvguy--no salutation required; this author works for a living just like
most people on this site.
markvguy
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